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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-07-23

---Logopened Wed Jul 23 00:00:12 2014
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05:26<@peter1138>However, this is a problem with OpenTTD, the game, and not CanRail, the GRF. The game issues a call to CB11 and complains about it (see image) when the GRF confirms the vehicle length; but even worse, if the GRF lets the callback fail, the game will then use property 21 to (re)set the vehicle length followed by the error message.
05:26<@peter1138>Hmm is that so?
05:27<V453000>does it mean he is changing vehicle length on the go?
05:28<@peter1138>That's what the error message says, but... why would you do that?
05:29<@peter1138>I thought by definition, if a callback fails it would use the fixed value. What else would it do? heh
05:31<@planetmaker>just don't feed the trolls...
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05:32<V453000>this isnt feeding trolls, just correcting obvious half-truths and lies
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05:34<@peter1138>That callback isn't tested very often is it?
05:34<@peter1138>Like, in the depot and of course loading the game.
05:36<V453000>from the image I am thinking that he does it when the vehicle reverses?
05:37<@peter1138>No, it's moving 88km/h
05:37<V453000>hm
05:37<@peter1138>Or at least, the original reporter's train was.
05:37<V453000>how can you tell from that? :D
05:37<@peter1138>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=179340
05:38<@peter1138>If it's reversing the it can probably be allowed
05:38<@peter1138>Dunno if it is
05:38<V453000>right :D
05:38<@peter1138>*then
05:39<V453000>what I imagined it is doing is that he has engine in front, wagon in end, engine being 7/8, wagon 8/8 or so, and when the vehicle reverses, he swaps those lengths
05:39<V453000>but I have no clue tbh
05:40<V453000>regardless, keeping a feature which throws errors is just dumb :)
05:41<@peter1138>Haha
05:41<@peter1138>Well, see, we could always just save all these callback responses in the savegame.
05:41<@peter1138>Then, in theory, it would never desync and you could change things whenever...
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07:18<V453000>I dont think the forum people give a single shit about yeti btw :D
07:21<@peter1138>Of course not, they only care about default vehicles or so called realism sets.
07:23<V453000>(:
07:27<LSky`>try reddit then V453000
07:27<V453000>LOL
07:27<LSky`>http://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/2bdui4/previews_of_yeti_industry_set/
07:27<V453000>nice :)
07:30<LSky`>im
07:30<LSky`>http://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/search?q=yeti&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all
07:30<LSky`>moar
07:32<@peter1138>Yeah, reddit, cos the proper forums are too hard.
07:32<@peter1138>reddittards
07:33<V453000>too hard?
07:33<V453000>rather too retarded
07:33<LSky`>redditards? thanks.
07:34<V453000>at least it looks like people on reddit write sensible threads and people reply to them sensibly
07:35<LSky`>just have to find the right areas
07:38<@planetmaker>seems yeti has another fanclub over there :)
07:39<V453000>quite
07:39<V453000>"he cannot do a better job than he did with nuts" :D
07:39<V453000>is nice to read
07:39<V453000>fuckers dont know whats coming
07:40<@peter1138>they seem to use their own patched version of ottd
07:40<LSky`>correct.
07:40<V453000>cant care less what they use :D
07:41<@peter1138>quite
07:41<@peter1138>144MB update for yeti, nice :p
07:41<V453000>the next version should be smaller :)
07:42<@peter1138>someone(tm) should write that stuff to do the automatic x4/x2 stripping...
07:42<V453000>YOU want to strip my beautiful sprites? :D boo
07:42<@peter1138>download the x1
07:42<@peter1138>then start the game up
07:42<@peter1138>and download the x4 in the background :p
07:43<V453000>well that would be quite amazing
07:43<@peter1138>possible i reckon
07:43<@peter1138>Damn this download is slow... I wonder which mirror I got. Probably mine :p
07:44<@planetmaker>tehehe :)
07:44<@peter1138>I think I rate limited it :p
07:44<@peter1138>Finally the horrible noise of the 1.4 intro game has stopped -- joined the server.
07:44<V453000>thanks for letting people know about YETI LSky` :) I appreciate it
07:45<LSky`>np
07:46<LSky`>i figured people might not know about it otherwise
07:46<@planetmaker>only sad thing about the reddit servers is that they're so modified :)
07:46<LSky`>not all are modified
07:46<LSky`>most popular 1 isnt
07:46<@planetmaker>good :)
07:46<@peter1138>V453000, will you render 1x sprites eventually? 4x scaled down looks messy :(
07:47<@peter1138>(nearest neighbour is not the best)
07:47<V453000>"most popular" usually means servers without newGRFs with Player people :P
07:47<V453000>peter1138: yeah, or downsize them in postproduction
07:47<V453000>but definitely, they even jump up and down sometimes
07:47<@peter1138>Yikes
07:47<V453000>the downsizing done by openttd definitely isnt most fortunate
07:48<@peter1138>If you ensure you pad your sprites to a multiple of 4 that shouldn't happen
07:48<V453000>mhm :)
07:48<@peter1138>It happens to standard sprites when really zoomed out, anyway.
07:48<V453000>right
07:48<V453000>I will see, I can either render x1, or get x1 from postproduction
07:49<V453000>if postproduction does the job well enough, I will use that
07:49<V453000>I think it should
07:49<V453000>and it is just a few clicks to make them
07:49<@peter1138>Yeah, you can scale it with bilinear or cubic methods.
07:50<V453000>I will try to code my masked sprites today, downsizing can come sometime afterwards :)
07:50<@peter1138>The trick though is to get it to keep some features sharp, else it all looks a blurry mess.
07:50<LSky`>and yeah, most popular means no newgrfs, but not people called Player
07:50<LSky`>theyre forced to change their name :D
07:51<LSky`>theres an unmodified server with newgrfs as well, so its not like we dont offer choices =)
07:51<V453000>:D
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07:52<LSky`>its just that the one without newgrfs always has the most appeal, for reasons I dont really understand
07:52<LSky`>I guess its just the fact that you can join without having to download content
07:52<@peter1138>Oh gosh that's so hard.
07:52<V453000>I do, most people are simply idiots who dont use newgrfs or cant press "download content" button :P
07:52<LSky`>yep
07:52<@planetmaker>yeah, but that seems to be the case
07:52<@peter1138>When I were a lad, we had to manually download it...
07:52<LSky`>thats the only explanation I can go of
07:53<V453000>is is sad LSky` , but vast majority of mankind is idiots :)
07:53<LSky`>eh, thats how its always been
07:53<LSky`>i just try to draw some of the lesser idiots to the modified servers
07:53<V453000>see, dont be surprised then :D
07:53<LSky`>and that works out reasonably well
07:53<V453000>what are the modified servers better at?
07:54<@peter1138>Excluding people.
07:54<@planetmaker>bugs
07:54<@peter1138>They include infrastructure sharing, I think?
07:54<LSky`>people apparently enjoy playing in certain periods
07:54<LSky`>and no
07:54<@planetmaker>instead of modified a nightly server would be interesting
07:54<LSky`>infra sharing was removed
07:54<@peter1138>Ah k
07:54<LSky`>couldnt be updated properly
07:54<LSky`>the main draw is the daylength thing
07:55<LSky`>and along the way, new patches are added
07:55<V453000>yeah daylength because 200 years isnt enough :D
07:55<LSky`>apparently were now trying a patch where you can control the speed of trains, distance between trains, etc
07:55<V453000>but mh :)
07:55<LSky`>200 is long, but its just shitty if the map has reset when you log on the next day
07:56<LSky`>or if all your vehicles are severly outdated
07:56<LSky`>but we manage
07:57<@peter1138>do you play coop or competitive?
07:57<LSky`>most servers are a bit of a mix between the two
07:57<LSky`>its not -really- competitive
07:57<LSky`>and some people do work together, but obviously others are free to start on their own
07:57<@peter1138>hmm, and then there's those stupid rules about industry "ownership"
07:58<LSky`>theyre not stupid if you dont play on the server
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08:02<V453000>2048*4096 excellent
08:03<V453000>:D
08:05<@peter1138>sprite or map size?
08:05<V453000>map lol
08:05<V453000>my sprites are 1024 x 1280 render, industry sprites are 16*256 x 704
08:07<@peter1138>Nice.
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08:34<V453000>omg humans on reddit are often familiar with nuts and are interested in yeti
08:34<V453000>:D
08:36<Eddi|zuHause2>yes, they are totally strange people...
08:37<V453000>fien with me
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08:37<LSky`>its because one of our servers runs NUTS, i think
08:38<V453000>yes I know I saw :)
08:38<__ln__>V453000: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RexQLrcqwc
08:38<LSky`>i personally think its a bit silly, but yeah
08:39<V453000>it is silly if you want to use silly engines, but you can use the sane engines too
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>"Police in Schwyz (switzerland) looks for new recruits with the slogan 'does your life lack spices? we have the solution' and the picture of a pepper spray"
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>http://v2.suedostschweiz.ch/var/upload/news/image/234336_640.jpg
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10:25<@peter1138>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1126795#p1126795 O_o
10:28<V453000>iz perfect
10:32<@planetmaker>I was about to reply. But got bored :P
10:33<@peter1138>:)
10:34<V453000>I was not about to reply without getting bored
10:34<V453000>:P
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>conspiracy theory of the day: malaysia airlines has so much trouble because a malaysian court tried and convicted tony blair and george w. bush for war crimes in iraq
10:35<Xaroth|Work>:|
10:36<Xaroth|Work>http://www.npo.nl/live/nederland-1 @ Eddi|zuHause
10:39<V453000>btw prepare ultimate push mayhem tonight pm :D
10:39<V453000>going to push like 1280+ files :D
10:40<@planetmaker>oO
10:41<V453000>5 animations, 128 renders each, 128 masked sprites each
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11:20<ZirconiumX>Hi all
11:33*ZirconiumX is annoyed that people cannot do maths.
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11:50*Eddi|zuHause is annoyed that people say maths when they mean calculating
11:52<ZirconiumX>Depends on the context. In the context of a calculation, you are correct. In the context of the general subject, you are not.
11:53<ZirconiumX>2^2014 - 2^2013 anyone?
11:53<ZirconiumX>(In symbolic form)
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>what are you trying to prove?
12:01<V453000>that math is gay
12:01<@planetmaker>nah. Math is. And it's a nice hybrid between science and art
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>maths is the highest form of philosophy
12:05<@planetmaker>in parts it's a subset of philosophy ;)
12:06<ZirconiumX>Physics, a branch of mathematics, which is a branch of philosophy.
12:07<@planetmaker>not quite :)
12:07<ZirconiumX>Although Randall Munroe considers it to be the other way round.
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>physics is not a branch of mathematics. you get physics if you take the philosophy out of methematics, and replace it with "realism"
12:09<ZirconiumX>"Methematics" <-- I'm not taking drugs, thanks.
12:09<ZirconiumX>Well, be honest. Have you found the value of X yet?
12:09<@planetmaker>math does not experiments and needs no reality, thus it's no science.
12:10<@planetmaker>ZirconiumX, we know the answer but don't do your homework ;)
12:10<@planetmaker>and that's not math, but applied calculus :P
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>i've yet to figure out what Zirconium is. i haven't bothered yet about the X
12:10<ZirconiumX>Mad.
12:11<ZirconiumX>Bordering on crazy.
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>that i probably am, but nobody has proven it in a court of law yet.
12:11<ZirconiumX>Yet. I'll see you in court :p
12:12<@planetmaker>you can be crazy as you like. Unless you're also dangerous, a court won't mind :)
12:12<@planetmaker>hopefully
12:12<ZirconiumX>planetmaker: "Calculus is the *mathematical* study of change" - Wikipedia
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>a "dangerous" can easily be constructed without your influence
12:13<LordAro>@calc 2**2014 - 2**2013
12:13<@DorpsGek>LordAro: Error: The answer exceeded 1.79769313486e+308 or so.
12:13<LordAro>aw
12:13<ZirconiumX>LordAro - bc?
12:13<LordAro>no *nix atm :(
12:13*LordAro loads up the pythons
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>good luck with that :p
12:14<LordAro>works fine
12:14*ZirconiumX makes a note never to visit LordAro's house for all the snakes.
12:14<LordAro>would you like me to post the result? :p
12:14<ZirconiumX>I get a 600 digit answer
12:14<ZirconiumX>So that's probably IRC spam.
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>remember that IRC lines can only take 255 characters
12:14<LordAro>probably
12:15<LordAro>:p
12:15<@planetmaker>2 * 2**2013 - 2**2013 ;)
12:15<ZirconiumX>LordAro: It is actually possible to work it out without a calculator, and in a much simpler for,
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>psst!!
12:15<LordAro>http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2%5E2014+-+2%5E2013
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>don't spoil it! :p
12:15*planetmaker hides
12:15<LordAro>ZirconiumX, of course it is :p
12:16<ZirconiumX>I was amazed how many people answered 2.
12:16<LordAro>but i'm on holiday, so i've switched off that part of my brain :p
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>i learned very early in my school life that if i know the answer i should hold it back and watch the other kids play :p
12:17<ZirconiumX>Wolfram Alpha queries related to 2**2014-2**2013 include werthers original chewy caramels. #logic
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i lean back and wait a few minutes before i say: "'Quizz' is spelled with two 'z'!"
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood why "Werthers Echte" are so popular
12:18<ZirconiumX>Eddi|zuHause: I've spent about an hour of my life arguing about the English pronunciation of scone.
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>what's that?
12:19<ZirconiumX>lmgtfy.com/?q=scone
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause>lmgtfy doesn't work without javascript
12:19<LordAro>heh
12:19<@planetmaker>:)
12:20<ZirconiumX>"A scone is a single-serving cake or quick bread." - Wikipedia
12:20<ZirconiumX>Someone needs to add a function to DorpsGek to return the first sentence of a wikipedia article. Closed source :(
12:20<LordAro>supybot isn't closed source, is it?
12:20<@planetmaker>dorpsgek is open source
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, without actually knowing what it is, and that sentence not really helping either, i'd pronounce it "[sko:n]"
12:21<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause, the correct way to pronounce it :p
12:22<LordAro>http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2013/03/how-do-you-say-scone/
12:22<ZirconiumX>sCON (rhymes with gone) vs sCONE (rhymes with cone)
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>the : means to make the o longer
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>your explanation makes a lot of assumptions about english phonetics, which i probably misinterpret. but i'd go with the second one
12:23<ZirconiumX>I have never seen that kind of stuff before. I'm only a teenager :)
12:24<@planetmaker>school should have taught you by teenage age
12:24<ZirconiumX>Eddi|zuHause: Don't worry, there's a girl in my year with the name Elyss?" (e with accent, if your terminal is broke)
12:24<@planetmaker>there's like 4 accents at least
12:25<ZirconiumX>e acute
12:25<LordAro>ZirconiumX, nah, your unicode is broken
12:25<@planetmaker>É È Ê and others my keyboard doesn't have easily
12:25<LordAro>é
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: that looks horribly misspelled
12:26<ZirconiumX>The power of an ASCII terminal
12:26<@planetmaker>it's surprising as to what passes as name, Eddi|zuHause :)
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: the french word is spelled Elysée
12:26<ZirconiumX>Eddi|zuHause: something stupid like French pronunciation, Italian spelling. Elise would be the English version
12:27<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that's the name of a building. Not a girl's name
12:27<LordAro>http://boingboing.net/2008/02/20/swedish-couple-fined.html
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>(as in Champs Elysées)
12:27<@planetmaker>(or that road :) )
12:28<ZirconiumX>I've had lots of fun asking people who are non native English speakers to pronounce her name, but I spoilt it in this occasion.
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no, it's an actual word, means something like "happiness"
12:30<ZirconiumX>Just seen a facebook post of Windows 8.1 on floppy disks. Only 3,711 of them.
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>so the "champs elysees" would mean something like "the fields of happiness"
12:31<ZirconiumX>Elyse? Krystyna Lee. She hates her parents for giving her that name.
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>as always happens when parents try to be too creative with names
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>i've met a girl named "Schakeline"
12:32<@planetmaker>urgs
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>(awful mispronunciation and misspelling of "Jaqueline")
12:33<@planetmaker>but Élysée is in my book only a name but not a word. Elisia or something as equivalent
12:34<ZirconiumX>planetmaker: Elise?
12:34<@planetmaker>that's another version
12:34<ZirconiumX>Or possibly Elisha.
12:34<@planetmaker>Geisha :P
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysion
12:35<@planetmaker>yes, but there's no such word in french as derived from that
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>it might not be in common use, but that's definitely what the building and the road name is derived from
12:36<@planetmaker>yes, that most likely
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12:37<ZirconiumX>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium
12:37<@planetmaker>freude schöner Götterfunken, Tocher aus Elisium,...
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that one
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>same origin, same meaning
12:37<ZirconiumX>Ah, ok. Can't speak German.
12:38<@planetmaker>It's the first two lines of the European anthem
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>also, it's "Freude, schöner Götterfunken"
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>comma is important :)
12:38<@planetmaker>:)
12:39<@planetmaker>"Ode to Joy" by Schiller
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>famously put to song by Beethoven
12:41<@planetmaker>yeah
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>in the 9th symphony, to be exact
12:42<ZirconiumX>Final movement
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12:44<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, even in your young years you must have heard of that :po
12:46<ZirconiumX>Yup. Even played it.
12:46<ZirconiumX>Though never actually read the poem.
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure we had to sing the song in school
12:55<@planetmaker>seems to be common, yes
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i don't get politics. they say "besides some questionable twitter posts, we found no evidence of russian involvement", and in the next breath they say "we need to increase sanctions because putin shows no interest in solving this"
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>it's like "we don't care about evidence. we set up our agenda ages ago, and we want to follow through at all costs"
12:58<@planetmaker>It's a different 'this'
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's not. "this" in both cases refers to the MH17 crash
13:00<pthagnar>is it a different "they"
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>possibly, but it's not far off
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>Obama: "we need more sanctions", EU: "hold on there for a minute", Merkel: "we need more sanctions"...
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>it's like they're playing a game completely removed from reality
13:04<Rubidium>it's all the most appealing reaction for the respective entities
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>it's like they made up their minds about putin being the ultimate evil in the world, then they provoke him, but he doesn't respond in the way they expected, so they must speak louder in order to make their belief more convincing
13:05<Rubidium>if it's the American republicans they'd probably bomb Moscow (except that if they would be in power they wouldn't actually do it, but Obama not doing it makes him look like a wimp)
13:06<Rubidium>although the question is also: is this what they actually said, or is it what the "journalists" said they said
13:07<@planetmaker>good question :)
13:07<Rubidium>because journalists and the so-called "experts" are spewing out loads and loads of non-sense
13:07<ZirconiumX>Even the Russian ones
13:07<Rubidium>(instead of saying they don't know)
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>it's like when Kerry said from halfway around the world: "they are disrespecting the dead", and when the austrian news phone to their correspondent at the site he replies "wtf is kerry talking about? disrespectful would have been leaving the bodies out there in 30°C heat"
13:08<ZirconiumX>http://english.pravda.ru/news/hotspots/21-07-2014/128114-ukraine_boeing_russia-0/
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: that may very well be a "we fly here and take these civilians as cover" maneuver, and the rebels wanted to actually hit the wrong plane
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>but neither side can be regarded as a reliable source of information
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>the news is so full of propaganda...
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>add to that the weird case of sanctions actually being bad for german economical interests
13:13<ZirconiumX>There may be plenty of free presses, but very few neutral ones.
13:13<ZirconiumX>The Russian sanctions will hit the City of London badly, but Cameron insists they must be done.
13:14<@planetmaker>UK and Germany will be fine off... other EU member states have their energy supply depend on Russia
13:14<@planetmaker>for certain definitions of 'fine'
13:15<ZirconiumX>http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/21-07-2014/128101-sanctions_airliners-0/
13:16<ZirconiumX>If they consider Putin to be being soft, then what are things going to be like when he's being hard
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: but again with the hypocracy, england approved shipping of military equipment to russia
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, i don't get politics
13:17<Rubidium>IMHO the biggest bit of evidence against the Russian news report of trying to hit that supposedly near Ukranian fighter jet is the retracted social media message by the "rebels" claiming they shot down a military transport
13:17<ZirconiumX>Unfortunately, the UK is an indirect democracy.
13:17<ZirconiumX>Wonder what the results would be for a direct democracy.
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>as if that ever stopped anybody
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>like i said yesterday: "nobody of power ever listened to votes"
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>either they're ignoring the vote completely, or they're shaping the vote so the outcome is what they wanted it to be in the first place
13:19<Rubidium>but as almost all tragedies, it's a combination of greed and incompetence
13:19<ZirconiumX>I think both sides have gotten to the point of tit for tat, personally.
13:20<ZirconiumX>And there could well be another cold war if nothing is done about it.
13:20<@planetmaker>so... what do you do about it? :)
13:21<ZirconiumX>Don't believe me? http://english.pravda.ru/world/americas/23-07-2014/128126-cuba_russia_usa-0/ sounds awfully familiar
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>discuss it in a completely unrelated IRC channel, obviously
13:21<Rubidium>planetmaker: *nothing*
13:21<ZirconiumX>Rubidium: unfortunately so
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13:21<Eddi|zuHause>also, i think we're already beyond the "point of no return" for a cold war.
13:22<@planetmaker>nothing might be wrong. But very little or you need to invest very much engagement and time
13:22<@planetmaker>and possibly be willing to dirty your hands in politics yourself
13:22<ZirconiumX>Eddi|zuHause: I think the beginning was the whole Crimea issue in the first place
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>i think the problem with entering politics is that it'll shape you more than you shape it
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: no, the beginning was long before that
13:23<ZirconiumX>planetmaker: if nobody else can stop war, then do we have much of a choice?
13:23<Rubidium>planetmaker: co-operations (companies, countries, ...) almost always take the cheap way, and barely anybody wants to pay more for slightly more safety
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: the "cold war" started the moment the EU and the USA picked sides in the revolution
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13:24<ZirconiumX>All we can hope is that this second cold war remains cold.
13:24<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, we might not yet be beyond that turning point, but surely at least the tipping point. Not sure
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: in the wake of this political coup, the russians had no choice in the crimea situation, because they couldn't let their primary fleet base fall into western zone of influence
13:26<@planetmaker>that's a rather simplistic view, too, Eddi|zuHause
13:26<@planetmaker>"having no choice" has become a way too popular statement. It never is true
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there were plans for that in russian government circles for 20 years already
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>they just waited for a situation to do it
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13:27<@planetmaker>That does not justify war
13:27<@planetmaker>and war it was
13:27<@planetmaker>and is. Just not a declared one
13:27<Rubidium>after all, there is a large chance of surviving an airplane crash when the seats are mounted in reverse (but it costs way more because the hull can't be used as wing area anymore, or the seats need to recline a lot more)
13:28<Rubidium>furthermore... it's going to be expensive to fly around all locations where people are having significant disputes
13:28<Rubidium>how would you go from central Europe to Kuala Lumpur?
13:28<Rubidium>- Ukraine... nope
13:28<ZirconiumX>The last article I linked to condemns what Kozyrev and Gorbachev (to a lesser extent) did
13:28<Rubidium>- Turkey... nope (PKK)
13:28<Rubidium>- Syria... nope
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: obviously the answer to that is via syria :p
13:29<@planetmaker>Rubidium, I don't understand your argument "(but it costs way more because the hull can't be used as wing area anymore"
13:29<Rubidium>- Israel... nope (Gaza)
13:29<@planetmaker>how would reversion seats cost anywhere any space?
13:29<Rubidium>planetmaker: ever noticed the plane having a 3 degree upward angle during flight?
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13:30<@planetmaker>well, yes. Though it's more noticable with 10° in test flights :P
13:30<Rubidium>now imagine sitting on a seat with a 3 degree downward angle; you would slowly slide off the seat
13:30<Wolf01>hi hi
13:30<ZirconiumX>Hi Wolf01
13:30<@planetmaker>Rubidium, yes... but how does that impact seat spacing?
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>if you change the angle of the seat, you need more distance between seets
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>s/ee/ea/
13:31<ZirconiumX>Rubidium: Google picks a good route, if by accident
13:32<@peter1138>I need more distance between seats anyway...
13:32<@peter1138>They're clearly designed for children.
13:32<@planetmaker>maybe... not sure it actually needs that. The tilt is at knee level and doesn't impact free area really
13:32<Rubidium>planetmaker: take a number of boxes, place them next to eachother. Then change the angle of the boxes and see they need more space
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: everybody with a larger-than-average size has that problem, so 50% of the population
13:32<@planetmaker>peter1138, I've once seen a nicer overview of seat spacing vs. airline... there's like at least 10cm difference among carriers
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13:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: knee level is the exact spot where you need the most space
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13:34<Rubidium>planetmaker: the length of the trip even makes the pitch differ within a carrier
13:34<Rubidium>long haul are usually more spacious than short haul
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13:35<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really have a clue about flying, my last flight was in 2000
13:35<@planetmaker>sure. You can suffer more, if it doesn't take so long :)
13:35<@planetmaker>he... that was around the first flight I remember, Eddi|zuHause ;)
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>but on trains i always take a 4-seat compartment
13:35<ZirconiumX>planetmaker: I believe Ryanair had plans of making passengers stand on short-haul flights.
13:36<@planetmaker>ZirconiumX, I doubt
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i've only flown twice. once to portugal and once to USA (via iceland)
13:36<@planetmaker>ZirconiumX, that would be illegal right from the start
13:36<Rubidium>planetmaker: short haul has more competition (esp. easyjet and friends)
13:36<ZirconiumX>planetmaker: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/feb/28/ryanair-standing-only-plane-tickets-regulator
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13:37<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: 4 seat compartment? I've never seen those, or do you mean the 4 seats around a table?
13:37<@planetmaker>ZirconiumX, I happen to know something about air safety regulations... ;) I'm quite sure that makes a good yellow press article. But not serious consideration through engineering ;)
13:38<ZirconiumX>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_seat
13:39<@planetmaker>"The configuration and all designs have not yet been approved by regulatory agencies"
13:40<@planetmaker>"It has already been rejected by Boeing"
13:40<@planetmaker>"According to UK aviation law, passengers require a seatbelt on landing and takeoff, so the lack of a seat may preclude the design from being legal in the UK"
13:40<@planetmaker>etc etc. Thus a dead birth
13:41<ZirconiumX>Ryanair - sacrificing dignity for extra money
13:43<ZirconiumX>Could be worse. http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/travel/saddle-new-airplane-seat-design-made-cowpokes-real-passengers-article-1.438599
13:43<ZirconiumX>That looks seriously uncomfortable.
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13:51<Eddi|zuHause>all i can say to that is "... and capitalism wins again."
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13:52<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
13:52<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 20 hours, 40 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: <andythenorth> bye
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14:13<LordAro>such impatience
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>that is a perfect example of how these two people interact :p
14:16<LordAro>indeed :)
14:20<andythenorth>they seek him here, they seek him there
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14:33<V453000>hm, what would be a good idea to make industry with underland and animated overlay? IShould I replace ground { sprite: GROUNDSPRITE_NORMAL;} with my underlay sprite? And where would you put the animated part? to building{} or to childsprite{} ?
14:33<@planetmaker>V453000, I would not *replace* the ground sprite, but I would draw one on top - which maybe also leaves out some parts where e.g. grass can shine through
14:34<V453000>right
14:34<V453000>so building for underlay and childsprite for animation
14:34<@planetmaker>that makes the industry also blend in nicer - no matter what landscape one uses
14:34<V453000>yeah
14:34<V453000>that is what I though
14:34<V453000>t
14:34<@planetmaker>you can use several groundsprites :)
14:34<@planetmaker>on top of eachother
14:34<V453000>oh
14:34<V453000>:D
14:35<@planetmaker>thus you can use grass and draw just the dirt patches
14:35<@planetmaker>and draw grass. And then dirt patches on top. Both ground
14:35<V453000>igetit ... currently I had the whole industry in building{}
14:35<@planetmaker>well, not wrong :)
14:35<V453000>is there any downside/downside to either approach?
14:35<@planetmaker>no need to change those sprites. But nevertheless a good idea to think of nice ground sprites
14:35<V453000>or does it simply not matteR?
14:36<@planetmaker>it matters for when people make industries invisible. Then only ground is drawn
14:36<V453000>ahaa
14:36<@planetmaker>thus it's good to show something else than only grass
14:36<V453000>right
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14:36<V453000>well my ground underlay also has some height
14:36<@planetmaker>ground never must have height
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14:37<@planetmaker>or at least extend beyond the plain ground tiles
14:37<V453000>I mean the sprites have buildings which are tall in it
14:37<@planetmaker>i.e. fences cannot be ground
14:37<V453000>which would make the buildings impossible to make invisible
14:37<@planetmaker>but default iron ore mine is all ground sprites only
14:37<@planetmaker>for instance :)
14:37<V453000>aye
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14:38<V453000>okay, so how about I make a custom ground sprite which like says what kind of industry it is, being flat, then building{} is the underlay, and animation is the childsprite
14:39<@planetmaker>like ECS houses / TTRS houses. Yes.
14:40<@planetmaker>You shouldn't call buildings 'underlay' though :)
14:40<@planetmaker>that only adds confusion :P
14:40<V453000>mhm :P
14:40<V453000>what to call it then :D
14:40<@planetmaker>just 'buildings'
14:40<@planetmaker>as they are 'buildings' :)
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14:40<@planetmaker>animation then drawn on top as their childsprites
14:41<@planetmaker>underlay has something which can imply ground sprite IMHO
14:42<V453000>kay
14:42<V453000>thanks :)
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i guess i use "compartment" wrong. maybe "pseudocompartment"... what i mean is that arrangement with two seats in one direction and 2 seats in opposite direction. there may or may not be a table inbetween.
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: table is more common in long distance trains
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, besides the luggage compartment it's the only place in a train where there is a reasonable amount of leg space, especially if nobody sits opposite of you
14:56<@planetmaker>only if noone is opposite of you
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>"real" compartments (usually with 6 seats) are not very common anymore
14:57<@planetmaker>indeed
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>well if somebody sits opposite you can still "interleave" the legs
14:58<@planetmaker>that's awkward with strangers
15:01<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: first class on the IC Berlin (6 seat compartment) has plenty of space too, though that 4 seat thing in the Thalys (in second class) is really small
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>i've never travelled in first class
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15:09<Rubidium>that's the benefit of a train that's often full booked in second class on earliest run on monday (due to high schoolers on school trip to Berlin), a boss that requires you to be in Berlin at a specific time and a boss that gladly pays to get you on that particular train
15:10<Rubidium>not that there's much benefit to first class on that train, except slightly more space
15:10<Rubidium>though I need to walk basically the whole length of the train along the platform because the first class coaches are on the "wrong" side of the train both in Berlin and where I get onto it
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not in a job that requires me to travel such long distances
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>although i do occasionally travel 100km
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>but my boss pays me a car for that :)
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's not a very good or new one, though :p
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>http://img.pr0gramm.com/2014/07/23/c0161111167c5aed.png
15:23<Rubidium>nice to see they used UK English ;)
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15:29<V453000>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3530/ this throws out "Using spritesets with different sizes in a single sprite group / layout is not possible"
15:29<V453000>does that mean the sprite of building needs to be animated too
15:29<V453000>?
15:29<V453000>the pixel sizes should be the same, they even use the same template
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15:31<Eddi|zuHause>"size of the spriteset" is probably something different than "size of the sprite"
15:31<@planetmaker>V453000, no, it means your spritesets must have the same amount of sprites. Or you only must use one spriteset
15:32<V453000>hm
15:32<@planetmaker>it's a bit strange limitation and I'm not entirely sure where it comes from
15:32<V453000>so the animation must be only in building and childsprite, and everything else must be in gronud
15:32<V453000>ground
15:32<@planetmaker>but it must be observed even when you reference the sprites individually and care not about how the actual spriteset looks like
15:32<V453000>because loading 128 frames of static ground isnt best :P
15:33<@planetmaker>you can also always fill the small spritesets with empty real sprites
15:33<@planetmaker>[] is valid
15:33<V453000>I still need to display the "underlay" somewhere so I could just as well move it
15:34<V453000>... how do I give the ground{} multiple sprites?
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>i've no clue about sprtesets and childsprites, but all that sounds horribly wrong
15:35<V453000>yeah I would assume the building sprite and child sprite should be independent enough to have varying sprite counts
15:35<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-industries/repository/entry/src/tiles/farm_tiles.pnml <-- hm, might be that you need to define the subsequent ground sprites also as childsprite, V453000
15:36<@planetmaker>but as children to the groundsprite
15:36<V453000>._.
15:37<V453000>well previously, not adding/replacing any ground, and having animated building did work just fine
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15:37<V453000>I would try that again, I just need to know how to add a ground
15:37<V453000>dont want to replace it I guess
15:38<@planetmaker>use the normal ground. And define your custom ground (if any) as childsprite
15:38<@planetmaker>between the ground sprite definiton and the building sprite definition
15:38<@planetmaker>in the spritelayout
15:38<V453000>right
15:39<V453000>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3531/
15:39<V453000>same error as before
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15:40<frosch123>just add empty sprites to fill them up to the same amount
15:40<@planetmaker>yes. sprite_industry_3X_tile00_under must have animation_frame sprites
15:40<V453000>aha
15:40<V453000>:d
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15:41<@planetmaker>thus amend 127 empty ones in the spriteset and then referencing sprite_industry_3X_tile00_under(0) would suffice
15:41<V453000>aye
15:41<@planetmaker>or add your other groundsprites there and reference them by the appropriate numbers, thus adding only 119 empty sprites :P
15:41<V453000>XD
15:41<@planetmaker>or buildings there, too
15:41<V453000>mhm
15:42<@planetmaker>thus everything which is NOT animation can go there
15:42<V453000>yarr
15:42<@planetmaker>just remember their ordering then ;)
15:42<V453000>that is easy :P
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15:43<frosch123>[21:32] <planetmaker> it's a bit strange limitation and I'm not entirely sure where it comes from <- it comes from noone having implemented #3739 :)
15:44<frosch123>apparently there is a diff, which is waiting for ottd 1.3 to be released or so
15:44<@planetmaker>:P
15:45<@planetmaker>damn, most of the diff is regressions
16:03<Wolf01>'night
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16:46<frosch123>night
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17:26<LSky`>pretty impressive picture: http://i.imgur.com/gdXIuox.jpg
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17:40<@peter1138>Not very efficient...
17:46<Taede>i don't think the passengers are bothered by efficiency
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18:04<LordAro>US president convoy, isn't it?
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18:49<Eddi|zuHause>no
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>it's from the MH17 crash
18:52<LordAro>ah
18:53<LordAro>bbc is currently full of commonwealth games, so obviously everything else is not important anymore
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>sports events do that.
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>just think about all the things you missed because you watched the world cup
18:57<LordAro>well, i didn't watch the world cup, so not much
18:57-!-Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit []
18:58<LordAro>but then, i didn't look at the news either, so...
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>well it's a general "you"
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>just read up on the concept of "burying"
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>if you're sitting on a pile of bad news that you know has to get out at some point, you wait for something that absolutely dominates the news, no matter what. then you release your news, and are fairly sure it won't make the headlines
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>so maybe it appears on page 2 or 3 in some tiny corner
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>and after 2 weeks, when the attention goes back to normal, the outrage level will be too low to throw any concerns
19:06*LordAro nods
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---Logclosed Thu Jul 24 00:00:15 2014