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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-07-24

---Logopened Thu Jul 24 00:00:15 2014
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02:54<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, link me your stupid high 2048 score please.
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04:29<ZirconiumX>Morning all
04:35<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, found it in my history anyway :)
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04:43<ZirconiumX>What's the syntax for using extmidi? I think it's -m extmidi:<path to external midi player> but I'm not sure
04:48<ZirconiumX>thank you!
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07:37<@planetmaker>wb Alberth :)
07:37*Alberth sort of followed the topics by reading log :)
07:38<@planetmaker>been travelling?
07:38<@Alberth>yep, and visiting my parents for a few days
07:38<@planetmaker>aye, nice :)
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08:47<Eddi|zuHause>"politicians demand that airlines continue to fly to tel aviv, otherwise it looks like a capitulation before terrorism"... wtf have they been smoking?
08:49<LordAro>whose politicians?
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>does it matter?
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>americans withdrew their ban on flying to tel aviv on (hidden) political pressure instead of rational reasons. german politicians say it outloud
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09:37<V453000>wtf ._. sprite_industry_3X_tile00_under is not defined as a function :0 I thought childsprite { sprite: sprite_industry_3X_tile00_under(14); } calls the 14th (counting from 0) frame of the animation :d
09:37<V453000>what am i doing wrong?
09:38<@planetmaker>V453000, unrelated, replace template_industrytile_x1(0,0,0,0,"gfx/industry_EMPTY.png") by []
09:38<V453000>aha, that makes totally empty sprite
09:39<@planetmaker>and why is the spriteset name in ( ) ?
09:40<@planetmaker>that's a / the syntax error
09:40<V453000>guess it was cloned from the x4 one :P
09:40<V453000>no it has to be in ()
09:40<V453000>without them it throws syntax error
09:41<V453000>you mean this, right? spriteset (sprite_industry_tile00_under){
09:45<V453000>hm, I dont get what does the error mean by "isnt defined as function"
09:45<V453000>it is defined exactly the same way as my other animated sprite which already worked
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11:16<DigitalFox>Hey guys, good afternoon :)
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11:21<DigitalFox>I've been loading some Saves from Coop, where there's giant maps (2048) with 1400+ trains. I've been learning some track and signal things and I've noticed that even with more trains than my typical Save, the CPU is usage lower than my games (even trying just to have trains running).
11:21<DigitalFox>Only thing I could identify as maybe being one of the major causes is the amount and size (not only of sprites but code complexity) of my loaded GRF's, for example 5 or 6 train set's. So does the amount and complexity of the GRF's loaded could increase the CPU use when having say 500 or 1000 trains or even more in a perceivable way?
11:22<V453000>we have never used 2048x2048 map DigitalFox :)
11:22<V453000>on one dimension perhaps, but the other was probably 64 or 128
11:23<DigitalFox>hum I'm pretty sure then were atleast 1024 in size :\
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11:24<DigitalFox>Well they look so filled with tracks and trains that it could trick my eyes :p
11:25<Xaroth|Work>and probably highly optimized for efficient routing as well :)
11:26<DigitalFox>But ok, even so, they have some many signals, more than I ever have used in all my savegames together, and yet on my testing machine the CPU (quad) is at full use and a save from coop is at 16 or 17%. It just seems such a big difference...
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11:28<DigitalFox>When I say full use, I mean 25/26/27%
11:28<DigitalFox>A single core
11:33<DigitalFox>V453000: By the way, amazing job on YETI, looks great :)
11:33<V453000>thanks. :)
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>"IR665 was the number of an Iran Air flight which was shot down by an american cruiser on 3rd of July 1988. 290 people died. the USA later paid 61.8 million dollar. they never apologised"
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>err... typo: IR655
11:40<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I hope that statement about capitulating to terrorists was also uttered when the ban for flying above the east of Ukraine was set
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: no. and that just increases the absurdity of it
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>because technically, the ukrainian airspace is more secure than the israelian
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11:54<LordAro>my housemate just wrote this:
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12:14<@Alberth>nice :)
12:19<LordAro>oh, and he wrote this a few days ago:
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>that looks very "self-documenting"
12:22<LordAro>err, yes
12:22<LordAro>i still haven't quite worked out what it does
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12:24<ZirconiumX>Afternoon all
12:25-!-luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
12:29<Rubidium>it looks unpatentable
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12:52<DigitalFox>Is train_width_32_px available to planes?
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>there are no articulated planes, so there's no point
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12:54<Eddi|zuHause>that said, you probably want to achieve something completely different than what that actually does
12:55<juzza1>can someone explain what happens with that _42 + 1?
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12:56<Eddi|zuHause>it skips 1 character at the beginning of the string
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>which is "_"
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12:57<Eddi|zuHause>c-strings are a pointer to the first character of the string
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>the string ends at the first \0 character after that
12:58<juzza1>thanks, now i understand
12:58<juzza1>i was unable to google what it does
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>so you remove characters at the beginning of the string by moving the pointer, and at the end of the string, by inserting a \0
13:08<LordAro>if you named the function "hello", it would probably be more obvious
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13:24<Wolf01>hi hi
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13:51-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*] by peter1138
13:53<Eddi|zuHause><LordAro> if you named the function "hello", it would probably be more obvious <-- but then the output wouldn't be 42
13:53<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause, precisely, it would make it clearer what the function does
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>but you can't just change the output of a program.
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>it wouldn't be the same program anymore
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>from a compiler construction perspective, all programs that output "42" and nothing else are equivalent
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>if you change the name from _42 to hello, you change the output, and thus is an invalid change, creating a non-equivalent program
13:56<LordAro>i know, but juzza was asking how it worked
13:57<LordAro>i figured that the function name was being a bit confusing, and an actual word would make it clearer
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13:58<Eddi|zuHause>i kinda doubt that
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>changing the name doesn't explain the inner workings of C-strings
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14:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if cabeese can’t be done in the newgrf spec, aren’t they a BAD FEATURE?
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no.
14:14<andythenorth>so the alternative is to extend spec?
14:14<andythenorth>an / the /s
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what you need is something like "template based train replacement"
14:14<andythenorth>ah ok
14:14<andythenorth>I thought maybe you were proposing some special train flag
14:15<andythenorth>that would -0.5
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14:15<Eddi|zuHause>eat your cabbage.
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>it's not a BAD FEATURE
14:16<andythenorth>I think that’s a temporally-dependent truth
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>it just collides with the unintelligence.
14:16<andythenorth>right now it’s a BAD FEATURE
14:16<andythenorth>it’s causing me to think of other hacks
14:16<andythenorth>like caboose -> rear lamp (1/8 long)
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>if all tools you have are a hack, all things look like BAD FEATURES
14:17<andythenorth>can you rewite that as a koan?
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>what's a koan?
14:18<andythenorth>some kind of little story or aphorism teaching a truth
14:18<andythenorth>I think
14:18<andythenorth>anyway, your statement sounds like a Java Monks thing
14:18<andythenorth>you should post it in the BAD FEATURES thread
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>probably not.
14:19<andythenorth>caboose hack is…
14:20<andythenorth>…trying to use refits in combination with cargo capacity 0 to achieve auto-replace?
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>caboose hack is... trying [...] to achive auto-replace.
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14:26<andythenorth>in a simpler world, we just forbid cabeese
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14:27<Eddi|zuHause>it's entirely your choice as author whether to include them or not
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15:02<V453000>nicfer: I replied to your questions :P
15:02<V453000>1 is unclear to me why
15:06<nicfer>I asked 1 because sometimes worker yards appear outsides of towns
15:06<V453000>well yeah the limit is 30 tiles away from town max
15:07<V453000>it could be directly inside, yeah
15:07<V453000>but with towns on hills it gets a bit tough
15:07<V453000>so more of area around gives more probability that there will be an actual worker yard
15:07<V453000>ultimate solution is that you can fund one anyway
15:10<nicfer>the point is, WYs are supposed to represent something inside of towns, if they're outside it seems silly workers going hundreds of kilometers outside the city to start an even longer trip
15:11<V453000>+- yeah, I agree there more or less, I dont see it as such a big issue but yeah
15:13<nicfer>coding them as banks can make the trick, but as you said towns on hilly terrain may not be able to host one
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15:13<V453000>will consider it, thanks for the feedback
15:13<V453000>got to go now :P cya
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15:18<andythenorth>anyone here using react js framework?
15:18<nicfer>on other topic, I'm thinking on making a spanish (AR) translation, but dunno if it's going to get eventually acepted
15:21<frosch123>we also have portuguese (BR)
15:21<frosch123>and english UK/US/AU
15:24<nicfer>I've downloaded spanish.txt from the source code and started modifying it, just to test it out
15:30<andythenorth>industry ID 0xFFFF is invalid
15:31<andythenorth>what a PITA
15:31<andythenorth>can we up the limit?
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>am i missing a joke in the "longest snake" fact?
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no. maximum is 63. and this will stay forever.
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: implement GRM for industries. never worry about IDs anymore
15:34<andythenorth>really? o_O
15:34<andythenorth>I might have no choice :P
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>GRM is the NML "reserve_sprites" construct, only you want "reserve_industry". this won't let you allocate more than 64 industries at the same time, but you don't have to define the ID as a compile-time constant, it will change depending on which industries are activated.
15:38<andythenorth>might need that in future
15:38<andythenorth>I am at 62 industries
15:38<andythenorth>I want to add more in new economies
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>and if it's coded correctly, it can run two industry sets without conflict, provided they don't add more than 32 cargos and 64 industries combined
15:39<andythenorth>and I need to add a dummy industry for lang strings :P
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>well, a workaround is that you give the same ID to two industries which will never be in the same economy
15:40<andythenorth>yeah, compile time beauracracy
15:43<andythenorth>bah, the string switch trick isn’t working yet :|
15:43<andythenorth>works in Iron Horse
15:44<andythenorth>ah no graphics block for industries :P
15:47<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it's mountain chain or something
15:47<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: grm for industries is bollocks
15:47<frosch123>grm is when ids are shared
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but then the 60 years don't make sense
15:48<frosch123>industries/tiles, houses, airports, stations, ... do not share ids
15:48<frosch123>it's no problem to increase the industry type limit btw.
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that's only half the use of GRM
15:48<frosch123>only cargos and industrytiles would be tricky
15:49<frosch123>cargos otoh have shared ids
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: for example GRM can also tell you whether you have enough railtypes free to allocate your whole scheme, or error out early
15:49<frosch123>and that is mostly due to the pax/mail/goods/food weirdness of houses
15:50<andythenorth>dunno what’s wrong with that
15:51<frosch123>you miss an expression?
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how does your problem show itself?
15:51<andythenorth>undefined strings
15:51<andythenorth>compile appears to work
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: do industry tiles use strings?
15:52<andythenorth>cargos do :D
15:52<andythenorth>silly andythenorth
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>a "dummy cargo" may be problematic.
15:52<frosch123>regearing? :p
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>you can also attach the dummy callback to the passenger cargo
15:52<andythenorth>I’m out of cargo IDs :(
15:53<andythenorth>yeah I’ll do that
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how that works out
15:55<andythenorth>trying it
16:05<MTsPony>latest revision, is it normal for the game to default to 32bpp-anim blitter if none is set in openttd?
16:05<MTsPony>there is no 32bp grf or baseset loaded
16:06<@Alberth>does your machine support 8bpp?
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16:07<MTsPony>mhh i dont see why not?
16:08<@Alberth>type openttd -h in a terminal, and check the list of blitters
16:08<MTsPony>when i manually define 8bpp-optimized it uses that one instead
16:09<MTsPony>List of blitters:
16:09<MTsPony> 32bpp-anim: 32bpp Animation Blitter (palette animation)
16:09<MTsPony> 32bpp-optimized: 32bpp Optimized Blitter (no palette animation)
16:09<MTsPony> 32bpp-simple: 32bpp Simple Blitter (no palette animation)
16:09<MTsPony> 32bpp-sse2: 32bpp SSE2 Blitter (no palette animation)
16:09<MTsPony> 32bpp-sse4: 32bpp SSE4 Blitter (no palette animation)
16:09<MTsPony> 32bpp-sse4-anim: SSE4 Blitter (palette animation)
16:09<MTsPony> 32bpp-ssse3: 32bpp SSSE3 Blitter (no palette animation)
16:09<MTsPony> 8bpp-optimized: 8bpp Optimized Blitter (compression + all-ZoomLevel cache)
16:09<MTsPony> 8bpp-simple: 8bpp Simple Blitter (relative slow, but never wrong)
16:09<MTsPony> null: Null Blitter (does nothing)
16:09<MTsPony>sorry shouove used pastebin for that
16:10<@peter1138>Doesn't appear in my list ;(
16:10<MTsPony>im confused why it defaults to 32bpp-anim and not 8bpp-optimized like previous builds
16:11<andythenorth>still no strings
16:12<MTsPony>would 32bpp-sse4 work better then 8bpp-optimized btw even for just 8bpp graphics?
16:13<frosch123>MTsPony: 32bpp is default now
16:13<frosch123>check the "support8bpp" option
16:14<MTsPony>i wondered where that was for
16:14<MTsPony>problem is, im not sure whats causing it but when i start the game, and turn on full animations it crashes
16:14<MTsPony>whereas when i use 8bpp-optimized it works fine
16:15<frosch123>"no" -> always 32pp; "system" -> os supports 8bpp, so render in 8bpp but use 32bpp video mode; "hardware" -> hardware supports 8bpp, use 8bpp video mode in fullscreen
16:15<frosch123>but yes, manual blitter selection overwrites everything
16:15<frosch123>manual blitter selection also disables 32bpp for newgrf
16:16<MTsPony>what could cause game to crash when usin 32 blitter and turning on full animation?
16:16<frosch123>a bug? :p
16:17<MTsPony>hah yeah :p is it a known bug?
16:17<frosch123>only if you use ancient versions :p
16:17<@peter1138>OpenTTD uses 32bpp-optimized for me, if full-animation is off.
16:18<@peter1138>Turning it on switches to 32bpp-anim.
16:18<andythenorth>I’ve done dummy callbacks for cargo, industries, industry tiles
16:18<MTsPony>or perhaps it might have something to do with compiling SSE4.2 etc? im using intel compiler 14.0
16:18<andythenorth>still undefined strings
16:18<frosch123>peter1138: that only happens when not forcing a blitter via command line
16:18<MTsPony>tho when compilijg it seems to override sse4.2 with msse3 etc
16:18<frosch123>so, is that the issue?
16:18<@peter1138>Intel compiler... well any crazy shit might happen :p
16:18<andythenorth>also complainign I didn’t set prop 08 for tiles
16:18<frosch123>forcing a blitter which does not animation, and then switching it on? :p
16:19<MTsPony>no it was 32bpp-anim :p
16:19<@peter1138>frosch123, no, it just doesn't animate.
16:23<@peter1138>MTsPony, any chance of a backtrace?
16:23<andythenorth>I can’t find any strings in the nfo
16:23<andythenorth>Iron Horse nfo has them
16:23<andythenorth>but FIRS not
16:28<MTsPony>i got a crash dump
16:31<MTsPony>[00] openttd 0x0048D9B5 __intel_memcpy + 745
16:31<MTsPony>[01] openttd 0x00749AD7 std::std:: + 151 (C:\ottdsrc2\src\blitter\32bpp_anim.cpp:353)
16:31<MTsPony>[02] openttd 0x00532C4F NetworkUndrawChatMessage + 223 (C:\ottdsrc2\src\network\network_chat_gui.cpp:172)
16:31<MTsPony>[03] openttd 0x00532A1B RedrawScreenRect + 107 (C:\ottdsrc2\src\gfx.cpp:1271)
16:31<MTsPony>[04] openttd 0x0053291B DrawDirtyBlocks + 491 (C:\ottdsrc2\src\gfx.cpp:1323)
16:31<MTsPony>[05] openttd 0x004C0F27 ThreadObject::New + 151 (C:\ottdsrc2\src\thread\thread_win32.cpp:101)
16:31<MTsPony>[06] openttd 0x004908C8 openttd_main + 4936 (C:\ottdsrc2\src\openttd.cpp:865)
16:31<MTsPony>funny thing it says so ethng aboit intel memcpy? lol
16:31<MTsPony>something *
16:31<@peter1138>See, what did I say about the Intel compiler? :)
16:32<@peter1138>Your line numbers are out, though.
16:32<@peter1138>And your directory separators are wrong too...
16:33<MTsPony>how so?
16:33<andythenorth>firs compile kills my battery :(
16:33<@peter1138>353 ,.......,.......dst += _screen.pitch;
16:33<@peter1138>^ not a memcpy
16:34<MTsPony>mhh? thats odd. its a patched 26694 revision, but im 100% sure the patch doesnt touch any blitter stuff
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: are you constructing strings with parameters?
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>like string(STR_A, param1, param2)?
16:37<andythenorth>very likely
16:38<MTsPony>what did you mean with my directory seperators are wrong peter
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: those must be done in the dummy callback, too
16:39<andythenorth>also I need to dummy the strings into all nfo files
16:39<andythenorth>cargos, header files,
16:39<andythenorth>not just industries
16:39<andythenorth>I assume?
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>depends on how many of those you want to compile individually
16:41<andythenorth>ho, I now have some strings showing
16:41<andythenorth>not all
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>does compiling each cargo individually make sense?
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
16:41<andythenorth>not hugely
16:41<andythenorth>right now it’s changeable
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>i'd compile all the headers and the cargos as one nml file
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>and then each industry separately
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16:42<Eddi|zuHause>then you need the dummy callback at the end of the (headers and cargo) file
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>and at the beginning of every industry file
16:43<andythenorth>I had the cargos as one file before, not sure why I changed it
16:43<andythenorth>maybe no good reason
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>at this point partial compile becomes dangerous. because changing a cargo may influence industries that you didn't touch
16:47<andythenorth>Iron Horse is pretty conservative about changes
16:47<andythenorth>most things force a recompile
16:47<andythenorth>FIRS will probably have to be same, except I need to trust make to do that
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>you can add the header file as dependency for all partial files, then the whole set will be compiled when you change the header
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>something like: "%.nfo: %.nml header.nml"
16:50<andythenorth>hmm, so the cargo name strings appear to be in firs.nfo
16:53<andythenorth>maybe I have to include 'NEW_CARGO_SPRITE', in property block
16:54<andythenorth>nforenum is whining about that
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16:55<andythenorth>or maybe I have to declare a block for each cargo
16:55<andythenorth>I thought they only needed CTT though
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 25 00:00:18 2014