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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-07-29

---Logopened Tue Jul 29 00:00:48 2014
00:04<Jinassi>in Slovenian, it's a female gender
00:04<Jinassi>Now ain't that a bitch.
00:05<Jinassi>and singular -.-
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00:53<Eddi|zuHause>it's also female in german
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02:07<andythenorth>oops :o
02:08*andythenorth forgot that a feature item can’t have two action 3s
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02:40<andythenorth>ho ho
02:41<Pikkaphone>merry christmas
02:43<Pikkaphone>what's going on in here?
02:44<LSky`>not much
02:46<andythenorth>Pikkaphone: too many action 3s
02:46<andythenorth>also potty training child #2
02:46<andythenorth>we just had a poo
02:47<Pikkaphone>how many is too many? Aren't you all nml these days anyway?
02:47<andythenorth>turns out nml is slow
02:47<andythenorth>more than 1 is too many
02:48<Pikkaphone>what if they're livery uberride?
02:50<andythenorth>never used that
02:50*andythenorth considers liveries for industries
02:50<Pikkaphone>what, never?
02:51<Pikkaphone>mu carriages?
02:51<V453000>switch on graphics is better than livery override isnt it
02:52*andythenorth wonders what the game does when there are two action 3s for an industry
02:52<@planetmaker>it would ignore one or the other I recon
02:53<@planetmaker>Anyhow, a good morning (that's an action0 :P )
02:53<Pikkaphone>v: depends
02:54<@planetmaker>conceptually there should be no livery override in grf specs
02:55<@planetmaker>it's a bad feature from ye ol' times when there was no proper support for the switch way
02:56<V453000>idk, I use switches everywhere and livery override only in case when I wanted powered wagons
02:56<Pikkaphone>hooray for hysterical raisins
02:56<@planetmaker>yeah. We have whole cans of them
02:56<@planetmaker>they're cheap :P
02:56<Pikkaphone>although as a bsd feature it's definitely eclipsed by powered wagons. ;)
02:57<Pikkaphone>a bad feature too
02:58<V453000>I dont think powered wagons are that bad
02:58<V453000>they can be useful if used right
02:59<@planetmaker>of course. Just the specs how they are to be created are aweful :) But that's how they are
03:00<Pikkaphone>we should make a thread to discuss all these bad features
03:00<andythenorth>forums are a bad feature
03:00<@peter1138>openttd is a bad feature
03:01<Pikkaphone>peeter is a bad feature
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03:03<@peter1138>rm *
03:03<@peter1138>svn commit
03:03<Pikkaphone>I should bring my laptop to uni do I can at least make bad newgrf spreadsheets
03:04<andythenorth>spreadsheets are a bad feature
03:04<andythenorth>if you can’t make a set design in a notes app on a phone
03:04<andythenorth>then it’s too much
03:05*andythenorth soapbox
03:06<Pikkaphone>but I need semi-random cost calculations
03:07<@peter1138>Just return random values to all the callbacks
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03:07<Pikkaphone>rerandomise on loading, too
03:07<@peter1138>the complain that callbacks are broken
03:08<andythenorth>pickling error
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03:16<Pikkaphone2>andy:so are you moving everything back to nfo? or are you making your own andy4nfo?
03:16<andythenorth>nml -> nfo
03:16<andythenorth>as in, compile nml to nfo
03:16<andythenorth>then grfcodec
03:16<andythenorth>it’s done for Iron Horse and is faster
03:17<andythenorth>trying to make it work for FIRS is super super hard
03:17<andythenorth>definitely not worth the time I’m putting into it
03:17<andythenorth>but then what is? o_O
03:17<@peter1138>is it faster when playing?
03:18<Pikkaphone2>industry code runs on magic and tears
03:18<andythenorth>OS X joke :P
03:19<andythenorth>trains are so simple
03:19<andythenorth>irony being that I did a train set last
03:19<andythenorth>ships are even simplser
03:20<V453000>YETI cannot even compile without compiling nml->nfo first
03:21<V453000>nml runs out of memory :)
03:21<Pikkaphone2>nfo is the future!
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03:23<andythenorth>with nfo I could just write out the strings I need in an action 4
03:23<andythenorth>instead of having to trick nmlc into doing it
03:26<andythenorth>also bye
03:26*andythenorth lets the train take the strain
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06:17<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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13:00*andythenorth might yet win
13:01<andythenorth>going to have to do a horrible split on a specific line of nfo
13:01*andythenorth hopes nml writes out specific lines deterministically
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13:26<@planetmaker>good evening
13:27<@planetmaker>andythenorth, we cannot give you a guarantee that any order in the output will be maintained other than the ordering strictly required by grf specs
13:28<andythenorth>splits are highly unsafe :P
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13:31<andythenorth>I couldn’t find another way to do what I need
13:32<andythenorth>I thought I had a cunning solution last night, but it wasn’t so
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13:36<Wolf01>hi hi
13:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth, well, it's tricky :)
13:37<@planetmaker>I still invite you to solve your issues at the NML level rather than adding another layer of indirection behind it
13:37<@planetmaker>or two layers for what it's worth
13:38<andythenorth>given that the solution requires rewriting nml in c or c++, I think it’s beyond me :)
13:39<@planetmaker>the partial compile thing which you're working on does not necessarily require that
13:39<@planetmaker>yet that might still be the easier or more profitable route
13:40<@planetmaker>I don't know really either :(
13:40<andythenorth>this grfcodec route is now a battle to the death for me
13:40<andythenorth>even if it ends up getting binned
13:41<andythenorth>like the time I wrote a horrible cpp macro system to generate bandit, even though it was stupid
13:41<andythenorth>I had to win
13:42<andythenorth>anyway, train time :)
13:44<Wolf01>mmh, there's something which has been rumbling for months around my house and I can't find the origin, I'm beginning to have weird ideas like somebody digging a tunnel, a sinkhole, a geyser
13:45<@planetmaker>a marten?
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26707 /trunk/src/lang (lithuanian.txt ukrainian.txt) (2014-07-29 17:45:32 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 1 changes by RunisLabs
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by
13:45<@DorpsGek>ukrainian - 37 changes by Strategy
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13:46<Wolf01>an entire train of martens maybe
13:47<Wolf01>it's so deep and rithmic
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13:59<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling andy is on that totally wrong track for solving his "problem"
14:00<@planetmaker>well. I do, too
14:00<@planetmaker>but whatever floats his boat :)
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>i mean like he forgot one essential step, and now he tries to fix the outcome of this at the totally wrong level
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>who invented this minecraft coordinate system? why is y the height, and not z?
14:11<@peter1138>Notch is strange like that.
14:13<Rubidium>someone who starts drawing a box with x on the horizontal and y on the vertical axis. Then he wanted 3D and added a dimension "to the back", which obviously would need to be z
14:13<Rubidium>what's funky is that 2D x = 3D y, 2D y = 3D z
14:14<Rubidium>the real question is... who invented that coordinate system?
14:17<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i think that is actually the normal way to do it
14:17<frosch123>e.g. also povray does y=up
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14:18<@planetmaker>blender doesn't
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: if x is to the right and y is up, then z must be to the front. otherwise it's not a right hand system
14:18<@planetmaker>normal is a right-handed instead of left-handed
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14:19<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: still you can arrange a right hand system many ways
14:20<@planetmaker>obviously. But as you pointed out, what you described was left-handed
14:21<frosch123>maybe he has issues with left and right?
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14:34<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no information i have given points to it being left handed
14:34<frosch123>"if x is to the right and y is up, then z must be to the front. otherwise it's not a right hand system"
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>that was a reply to Rubidium
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>i complained about z not being the height, not about being not-right-handed
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14:59<Eddi|zuHause>but i did get my dogs fixed anyway
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15:12<@peter1138>There are people saying that getting your dogs neutered/spayed causes cancer.
15:13<@peter1138>And then there are others saying that if you don't, it causes cancer...
15:13<@peter1138>And nothing to do with the Daily Mail.
15:15<frosch123>chemistry divides substances into two classes: those who cause cancer, and those who are suspected to do so
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15:24<@Belugas>what if the newspapers you trained your dog to bring you also cause cancer?
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15:28<Jinassi>evening, I'd like to continue from my yesterdays inquiry, there's a page on desura about openttd. Someone made it, but it is not being updated anymore. I'd like to get permission and additional info to update it. Later on, with permission from developers I'd like to create such pages on other websites that offer free games. Since most of the nowadays players use those sites as go-to to check
15:28<Jinassi>on games it would be beneficial to the whole community in expanding playerbase.
15:33<@peter1138>These days everybody uses Steam and nothing else.
15:33<Jinassi>Peter, your thoughts on making something like this there'
15:33<frosch123>Jinassi: ask Terkhen about desura
15:34<frosch123>he is here some evenings, but his nick being here does not mean him being here
15:34<@peter1138>Frankly I don't give a shit, OpenTTD just exists, it doesn't need advertising or market share. But that's just my opinion :p
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15:36<@planetmaker>Jinassi, I would not mind it seeing there or on steam. The main problem I see: *someone* needs to maintain it. Thus make sure it's fed with the newest stable release in a timely manner
15:37<@planetmaker>(or greenlight, where it would have to go through probably in order to get onto steam)
15:38<frosch123>isn't greenlight dicontinued?
15:38<@planetmaker>But I don't know whether they impose any restrictions like iOS app-store
15:38<@planetmaker>frosch123, no idea
15:38<Jinassi>They have a fee to get on greenlight
15:41<@planetmaker>ah, hum
15:41<@planetmaker>Jinassi, would you want to maintain one or the other? And care to make stable releases available through their service?
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15:42<Jinassi>I would, i'll get in touch with Terkhen
15:43<@planetmaker>*I* do think that would be nice. And dislike the fact that we can't simply automatically publish there, too like we can on our binary server(s)
15:44<frosch123>yeah, an automatic updater is the only purpose of it :p
15:44<frosch123>if it is not up-to-date it is silly, and all the comments are about that :p
15:50<Jinassi>shouldn't be an issue to link binaries, only issue is, how would updater handle that
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15:50<frosch123>as said, the updater is the only point of those platforms
15:51<frosch123>(as in "one updater to rule them all")
15:54<@planetmaker>having openttd on steam certainly would also be nice. It's an awefully convenient one-stop-get-them-all programme
15:54<Rubidium>pfff... apt is so much better ;)
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15:54<frosch123>i don't think the "get it" is any argument for ottd, it's only about the updating for people who already have it
15:55<@planetmaker>Rubidium, yes, it is... except for those stuff not in apt ;)
15:56<@planetmaker>frosch123, dunno, it's easy to browse a list of games just using the steam client
15:56<frosch123>planetmaker: would you find it, if not searching for it?
15:57<@planetmaker>frosch123, maybe. One can really just scroll through and look for interesting stuff...
15:57<frosch123>(as in "searching by explicit name")
15:57<@planetmaker>you can search for keywords
15:58<@planetmaker>like "transport simulation" gives a good list
16:01<frosch123>he, that mostly gives simutrans images :p
16:02<Jinassi>plus simulator games are all the rage these days, there's even a water simulator ffs
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16:03<frosch123>well, at least ottd is no "walking simulator" :)
16:03<Ailure>gosh the simulator parodies trend on greenlight is one of the dumber trends i saw on steam
16:04<@planetmaker>getting into greelight is like 100$US or so. *iff* there is one or two people to keep that updated continuously that's imho worth doing
16:05<@planetmaker>it would probably strengthen the multiplayer aspect
16:05<frosch123>doesn't it take like 3 years to get on there?
16:05<@planetmaker>I don't know
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16:05<Jinassi>to where?
16:05<@planetmaker>I hoped Jinassi would know :)
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16:06<Ailure>Is there any open soruce apps on steam at all? :P
16:06<Ailure>not counting games that were open source after a commercial release, so no doom dosen't count lol
16:07<frosch123>Ailure: there are a hell lot of old games which come with dosbox
16:07<Ailure>Like xcom ;)
16:07<Ailure>not free though
16:07<frosch123>as in, someone takes the old game, removes the cd/copy protection, bundles it with dosbox, and effectively writes an installer
16:08<frosch123>i use a lot of "as in" today, do i?
16:09<frosch123>i believe people who get those games end up with dozen of dosbox installations :p
16:09<Ailure> does the same thing though to be fair
16:09<Ailure>(which I find annoying though)
16:09<frosch123>just like people who play/read visual novels end up with dozen of renpy installations
16:09<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> well, at least ottd is no "walking simulator" :) <-- you mean like qwop?
16:10<Ailure>It was funny playing xcom after all those years though, one of those DOS era games I didn't play until something like 2011
16:10<Ailure>as I knew about it for years through transport tycoon ;)
16:10<Ailure>It was funny seeing those anti war discussions regarding transport tycoon even from the author when it features some of the implied xcom fights
16:11<Ailure>as disasters
16:11<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: no idea what that is. i only heard about steam adding a feature to aggregate common tags used by users... then being suprised by people calling bad games bad games... and then banning a lot of tags, amongst them stuff like "console port" or "walking simulator"
16:11<Ailure>which is good cause those tags aren't meant to cover opinions
16:12<Ailure>i hated those tags
16:12<Ailure>but then again i hate most steam reviews cause people think they're being clever by littering them with injokes that you only get if you played the game
16:12<Ailure>which defeats the point of a review
16:14<Jinassi>open source game on steam:
16:15<Ailure>yeah just found that
16:15<Ailure>so i guess it's not impossible
16:15<Jinassi>keep searching...i have a feeling there has to be something about the game that is payable
16:15<Jinassi>so Valve actually gets something from it
16:16<Ailure>it's on the page as DLC
16:24<Jinassi>its not just gettngme on there,,,it's gettingthis in heam too: howver,i resume thisisoptional
16:24<Jinassi>*i presume th is otional
16:24<Ailure>are you having a stroke? :O
16:25<Jinassi>is optional
16:25<Jinassi>meh keyboad, nedt fix it
16:25<Ailure>that is for oculus rift stuff lol
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16:25<Ailure>says vr as in virtual reality
16:27<Ailure>lol at the disclaimer at the bottom
16:27<Ailure>must be a oversight that is visible on a public page
16:27<@peter1138>Valve Confidential
16:27<@peter1138>This restricted access site and content provided by it (code, documentation, etc.) is Valve confidential information. You must have a non-disclosure and/or license agreement covering confidential information with Valve to use or access this site
16:27<Ailure>it does say further up on the page that "More details are available once you've signed up for Steamworks and have logged into this site."
16:28<Ailure>so i assume it's meant to be a teaser for non-steam devs
16:28<Ailure>and that disclaimer is a mistake
16:29<Jinassi>click there to attempt to log in for more info
16:29<@peter1138>Anyway, I'm sure last time someone looked at all that bullshit it was incompatible with opensource software.
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16:30<Jinassi>this is far beyond me, desura will be fine LOL
16:31<Ailure>yeah the API stuff cannot be used in open source software (as that breaks steams licising rules), but it dosen't prevent open source software being put on steam apparently. :P Just no Steam specfi features
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16:31<Ailure>I think it would be more trouble than it's worth, until it's made a bit more open source friendly anyway imo
16:31<@peter1138>Nobody knows what Desura is.
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16:32<@peter1138>So it really doesn't matter.
16:32<Jinassi>true, but there's gog too
16:33<@peter1138>People only go to GoG for the offerse.
16:34<@planetmaker>or if they mind steams DRM print on stuff
16:35<Ailure>usualyl though those games don't have DRM on steam either though lol
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16:37<@peter1138>Meh, it's usually old crap packaged with its own copy of dosbox...
16:37<Ailure>Generally if it's a old DOS game it dosen't have DRM attached anywhere, if it's a indie game it's usually best to get a DRM free copy directly from the dev
16:37<Ailure>rather than gog or steam
16:37<@peter1138>DOS games had DRM...
16:37<Ailure>oh i know :)
16:37<Ailure>but i meant steam DRM
16:37<@peter1138>We just called it copy protection back then.
16:38<Jinassi>which was bollocks
16:38<Ailure>i think they are funny in retroaspect
16:39<Ailure>since most of them depend on you using a manual to look up a word or number or something
16:39<@peter1138>Yeah, or some other physical item.
16:40<@planetmaker>well, red on green background manuals were actual copy protection :)
16:40<@peter1138>Yellow on white code lists were fun.
16:40<@planetmaker>also that :)
16:40<@peter1138>I had one that used a spinny wheel system.
16:40<@peter1138>Had to line up bits to get the code.
16:41<Ailure>good thing that game companies realized that doing annoying copy protections is bad copy protections
16:41<frosch123>the most weird thing was the "oxyd book", which were 300 pages of random numbers
16:42<@peter1138>Earliest one I know of is a game that included a Novella.
16:42<Ailure>then again it's all relative, i used to not mind needing a CD to run a game, but digital distribution have spoiled me now
16:42<@planetmaker>times change :)
16:42<@peter1138>You have to look up works from the story, and that was on a BBC Micro, so in the 80s.
16:42<Ailure>and I found myself buying a game again just so i don't need to use a CD haha
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16:44<Jinassi>same here Ailure, still have boxed copies of Galciv I&II and Homeworld I&II
16:44<Jinassi>and digital ones
16:44<Ailure>and partly so i don't have to hunt down all CD's again (I was really happy that The sims 2 is free right now lol)
16:45<@planetmaker>oh, I still have quite a few, too. Civ 1,3 and 4, Dune 2, Diablo I + II,...
16:45<Jinassi>really? what about the dlc's?
16:45<Ailure>It got everything
16:46<Jinassi>planetmaker, those boxes, well, all of the copies before were a work of art, with all different easter eggs included
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16:46<@planetmaker>kinda, yeah. Though I got most of those already cheap when they were re-packed
16:47<@planetmaker>except civ1. That was full box, four 3.5" disks :)
16:47<@planetmaker>nice manual and stuff
16:48<Ailure>Civilization series... another game series i'm a huge fan of
16:48<Ailure>yep, i am looking towards beyond earth
16:49<Ailure>then again, i got a wide gaming taste
16:49<Ailure>only game genre i dislike are sports
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16:55<@peter1138>Ailure, except they didn't bother patching it to make it work properly. 800x600 sucks.
16:56<Ailure>running it at 1280x1024 fine, you have to manually change a config file for higer resolutions
16:56<Jinassi>everything can be solved, I'm playing Pharaoh on 1680x1050
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16:59<andythenorth>so now my plan is to put a dummy version of every industry in the header, declaring all properties and cbs that handle strings
17:00<andythenorth>wrapped in a parameter check that will always be false, to avoid unwanted side effects
17:00<andythenorth>and then include that header in the compile for each industry
17:00<andythenorth>so far so good
17:01<andythenorth>then I have to split the header back off the industry during the final linking step, which is ugly
17:01<andythenorth>but meh
17:01<andythenorth>maybe nmlc could be given args for files to parse, but not output? o_O
17:04<andythenorth>also bedtime
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18:50<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> I had one that used a spinny wheel system. <- monkey island did that
18:51<+glx>day of the tantacle used a nice one too
18:51<Eddi|zuHause><Ailure> then again it's all relative, i used to not mind needing a CD to run a game, but digital distribution have spoiled me now <-- strange, that was always the most annoying of all for me...
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 30 00:00:50 2014