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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-08-05

---Logopened Tue Aug 05 00:00:05 2014
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07:00<andythenorth>@seen pikka
07:00<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 13 hours, 52 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <Pikka> also goodnight, then
07:00<andythenorth>still no pikkas
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07:58<andythenorth>ship progression is ~pointless
07:59<andythenorth>the only valid progression is slow ships -> fast ships
07:59<andythenorth>i.e. standard hull -> hydrofoil / hovercraft
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08:13<V453000>andythenorth: congratulations on the research progress :P
08:14<andythenorth>did you reach the same conclusion?
08:14<andythenorth>can we publish a paper?
08:14*andythenorth hates ships
08:14<andythenorth>trains are much easier, much more fun
08:14<@peter1138>Don't buy stupid, pipelines are where it's at.
08:16<andythenorth>pipelines are awesome
08:16<andythenorth>but not for cows
08:16<andythenorth>or steel coil
08:16<andythenorth>V453000: ^ want to make a set?
08:16<andythenorth>transparent tubes
08:16<andythenorth>roll coils, slide cows etc
08:17<V453000>I already said I might draw something like that
08:17<V453000>when is not sure :)
08:18<V453000>also for cows
08:20<andythenorth>wtf shall I do about ships?
08:20<andythenorth>they all suck
08:23<Rubidium>too bad ships don't block eachother, otherwise you could sink ships and then those "sunk" ships could become reefs over time without the ships passing along
08:23<@peter1138>Too bad...
08:23<@peter1138>I don't even have a patch for that.
08:24<Rubidium>that it... the end of the universe as we knew it
08:25<@peter1138># It's the end of the univerve as we know it, and I'm alriiiiiight.
08:26<andythenorth>inwisible ships?
08:26<andythenorth>everything moves by submarine?
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09:12<andythenorth>but only along fixed paths
09:12<andythenorth>V453000: ^ ?
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09:15<andythenorth>you build ‘lines’
09:15<V453000>PS high speeds are retarded, see vactrains
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09:15<andythenorth>for ‘teleporters'
09:15<V453000>I think some pipey thingz would be nice
09:15<V453000>might try to render somez
09:16<V453000>would not be brutal amount of work either
09:16<andythenorth>should be transparent
09:16<andythenorth>with trains marked with little circles for cargo
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09:16<V453000>yeah, half-transparent
09:16<andythenorth>or something
09:16<andythenorth>I am rethinking
09:16<V453000>no, just fluid
09:17<V453000>you just have a pipe and see some liquid travel through it as a train
09:17<andythenorth>I am bored of not-quite-good-enough realistic graphics
09:17<V453000>relatively easy and would look nice
09:17<V453000>alternatively it could be an U pipe
09:17<V453000>so you could see into it from the top without transparency
09:18<V453000>could do :P
09:18<andythenorth>also log flumes
09:18<V453000>exactly what I thought about
09:19<V453000>might try something tonight, I actually have everything I need to make rails, except slopes
09:19<andythenorth>bored of realism, but I am not imaginative enough to come up with alternatives
09:19<V453000>your teddy bear will tell you alternatives
09:19<andythenorth>actually, my current favourite thing is things that were real, but never made it past prototype stage
09:19<andythenorth>alternate histories
09:20<V453000>what use should the pipeline have? :P
09:21<andythenorth>oil and crap
09:21<andythenorth>also James Bond
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09:23<V453000>why just oil :P
09:23<V453000>everything can be liquified
09:23<V453000>livestock can just be red
09:24<andythenorth>maglev pipeline
09:24<andythenorth>for steel coils
09:24<andythenorth>would probably work pretty well
09:25<V453000>I wouldnt discriminate any cargo type :)
09:25<V453000>if one, then all
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09:25<andythenorth>I was thinking in RL
09:25<andythenorth>I might patent it
09:26<V453000>ok you know what
09:26<V453000>I will try to remake PURR into 32bpp tonight
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09:26<V453000>creating some pipeline is just re-rendering with different model
09:27<V453000>the trains would probably be eazy
09:27<V453000>go think of a creative grf name :P
09:30<V453000>wat does it stand for?
09:32<@peter1138>multi-user shared hallucination
09:32<andythenorth>also you shout it at dogs
09:32<andythenorth>or you mush things in a blender
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09:34<V453000>FLOOD Liquid O.O. Displacement ? .d
09:35<andythenorth>FLOOD is GOOD
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09:37<V453000>FLOOD THE DUTCH
09:38<V453000>can you imagine how awesome would it be if the station sprites would turn into pipe ends and pools? XD
09:38<andythenorth>try it?
09:38<V453000>well more like sewers
09:38<V453000>well yeah but how would the train look :P
09:39<V453000>also how should empty tranez look
09:39<andythenorth>have you tried PIPE?
09:39<V453000>+ need signolz
09:39<V453000>yeah was shit
09:39<andythenorth>signals in PIPE are a PITA
09:39<V453000>couldnt see things
09:39<andythenorth>signals should just be markers on the ground
09:39<V453000>have you seen wetrail signals?
09:39<V453000>bad azz
09:39*andythenorth looks
09:39<V453000>not very beautiful but very readable
09:40<andythenorth>diagonal rivers
09:40<andythenorth>oh the humanity :|
09:42<andythenorth>pipes should be over-buildable by roads and stuff
09:43<andythenorth>i.e. level crossings
09:43<andythenorth>they are underground
09:43<andythenorth>PIPE forbids it :)
09:43<V453000>forbidding level crossings is one of the top retarded features
09:43*andythenorth forbids V453000
09:44<andythenorth>yeah anyway, just signals on the ground?
09:44<V453000>btw AsphaltRails could be amazing
09:44<V453000>yeah, just short signals
09:44<V453000>single trucks, choice of trailers, creating your own consists, ... :P
09:45<V453000>xcept towns dont grow over that but meh
09:45<V453000>is realistic; civil X cargo roads :P
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10:08<Eddi|zuHause><V453000> forbidding level crossings is one of the top retarded features <-- well, if you think train "crashing" with a blob of oil a better feature...
10:08<andythenorth>oil is underground
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>or a truck being overrun by oil
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>not all pipelines are underground
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>if it's underground it's not a "level" crossing
10:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: did you try to dm me, or is your client being odd?
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>i clicked some wrong button somewhen
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10:11<V453000>oh yeah crashes with oil blobs will be the best
10:11<V453000>wait for when oil crashes with alcohol
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12:24<@Alberth>hmm, don't they know china -> us should go the other way around ? :)
12:25<LordAro>wouldn't look as good graphically, i suspect
12:25<LordAro>alternatively, it was more difficult to implement :p
12:26<@Alberth>probably :)
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12:55<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly is that?
12:56<@Alberth>a nice looking graphics display
12:59<frosch123>something russia does not participate in
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>i don't get it
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13:11<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it's basically SCHUFA, but for the internet
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26721 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2014-08-05 17:45:43 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 3 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by
13:48<blathijs>1/quit brb
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14:08<andythenorth>so if there is a 400 pax 70mph hovercraft, what is the point of a 1000 pax 25mph ferry?
14:09<andythenorth>the hovercraft will transport more pax per hour
14:09<andythenorth>game over ferry
14:09<andythenorth>power is moot
14:09<andythenorth>infrastructure impact is moot
14:09<andythenorth>running costs are irrelevant
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14:11<Supercheese>Ferry has better cargo_age_period ?
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14:12<Supercheese>hovercraft be noisy and obnoxious
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14:14<frosch123>andythenorth: in case of aircraft the bigger capacity would be way better
14:14<frosch123>ships have the issue that station capacity is unlimited
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14:25<Eddi|zuHause>that's why that is the main thing i woul change about ships
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>not collision in open water or ocean speed
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>aircraft need holding pattern control (priorities, timetables, interleaving take of and landing)
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>and trains need routes...
14:31<andythenorth>it does make ship set design surprisingly hard
14:31<andythenorth>no infrastructure issues
14:31<andythenorth>no concern about power on hills
14:32<andythenorth>I could use cargo-aging to make hovercraft unpleasant, but that kind of balancing rarely works
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14:32<andythenorth>just cripples one vehicle, or makes two equal, therefore pointless
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>i would just make 3 generations: sail, steam and diesel. a bunch of capacities for each generation that make good multiples.
14:34*Pinkbeast murmurs something about prevailing wind
14:34<andythenorth>I’m down to 5 pax ships for 1870-2000
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>and multiply all cargo age periods by 4
14:34<andythenorth>I’ve removed 5
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>main use case for capacities is to match the capacity of the train for transfer services
14:35<andythenorth>I’ve only got 100 pax, or [large]
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>transfers would work better if there was a "wait for non-zero load" option
14:36<andythenorth>would be good for cdist
14:36<andythenorth>I’m sure you can create one with conditional orders
14:36<andythenorth>have fun with that :P
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>the ships would toot every few seconds
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>and potentially go round in circles
14:36<andythenorth>what is the objection to % loaded?
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>too overloaded gui
14:37<andythenorth>valid concern
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14:46<@Alberth>hi andy
14:47<andythenorth>lo Alberth
14:48<@Alberth>I really like your double and quadruple production in firs, it causes major havoc in my networks :p
14:49<andythenorth>it’s good for goal games
14:49<andythenorth>otherwise it should be 1.5x and 2x
14:49<andythenorth>or 1.5x and 3x
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>or add more steps?
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>1.33, 1.5, 2, 3, 4?
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't actually played with this version of FIRS
14:52<@Alberth> and I started making these weird coop-like constructs (at the left :p )
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>make it so that 4 needs so many supplies that you can't possibly fulfill it for all industries
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14:57<andythenorth>you can always fulfill
14:57<andythenorth>just build more sources
14:58<andythenorth>Alberth: is that to get supplies out or in?
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but if you increase the number of primary industries, you need to deliver more supplies to them
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15:00<Eddi|zuHause>if you need the same number of supplies to go from 1 to 3 as you need from 3 to 4, you might consider building another industry and getting it to 3 instead of increasing the one you have
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>depending on space
15:01<@Alberth>clay in, chemicals + supplies out (supplies at the higher station)
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15:02*andythenorth mostly plays basic economies
15:02<andythenorth>basic economies have short cuts for supplies
15:02<andythenorth>build more ports
15:02<andythenorth>it’s more fun imo
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>but if you need to double the number of ports to get from 3 to 4...
15:04<andythenorth>maybe :D
15:04<andythenorth>anyway, ships…
15:04<@Alberth>I haven't played firs enough to know the industries, there are just too many in full firs
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>maybe even use 4 as base: 1.33: 4, 1.5: 16, 2: 64, 3: 256, 4: 1024
15:08*andythenorth is pleased when copy-paste works for maintaining a set
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>i only know roosters
15:09<andythenorth>better than building some big external framework
15:20<andythenorth>so basically paddle steamers -> hovercraft
15:20<andythenorth>seems reasonable to me
15:23<Prof_Frink>Paddle steamers -> hovercraft -> hover steamers.
15:24<andythenorth>hover paddles
15:25<Taede>sounds like something you can use to play tabletennis from the couch
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15:31<andythenorth>V453000: is train curve speed a thing?
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, but it's hardcoded and hacked
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i would possibly remove hovercraft completely, and have hydrofoils as the futuristic ship generation
15:35<@peter1138>hovercraft aren't futuristic at all
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: no, but they are niche
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>and ship mechanics have no space for niches
15:36<andythenorth>you get to choose rosters
15:36<andythenorth>this roster has hovercraft
15:36<andythenorth>some other rosters will have hydrofoils
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>so you have sails: 1500-1850, steam: 1850-1950, diesel: 1950-2030, and hydrofoil 2030-...
15:37<Prof_Frink>Ekranoplans in others?
15:37*andythenorth stops trying to make *the* definitive vehicle set
15:37<@peter1138>Include all the things
15:37<andythenorth>action 14 params that offer a select, but subscribing to a list
15:37<andythenorth>when a selection is made by one param, the item is popped from the list
15:37<andythenorth>can we do that?
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue what you mean
15:38<andythenorth>you don’t speak GUI :P
15:39*andythenorth use case
15:39<andythenorth>action 14 params: roster 1 [options], roster 2 [options], roster 3 [options]
15:39<andythenorth>(3 rosters is enough)
15:39<andythenorth>if the options are ‘Brit’, ‘Euro’, ‘USA’ etc
15:40<andythenorth>and I select ‘Brit’ for roster 1, it should no longer be a valid option for roster 2 or 3
15:40<andythenorth>some UI systems handle this by subscribing to a data provider
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>no, that cannot be done
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>all action14 info is static
15:41<andythenorth>so either I do something different
15:41<andythenorth>or I let player choose the same roster multiple times
15:41<andythenorth>hang on
15:41<andythenorth>static for newgrf
15:41<andythenorth>static for openttd also?
15:42<andythenorth>that’s why action 14 changes aren’t picked up until I quit and restart openttd?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>the info is constructed on game start
15:42<andythenorth>it’s always nice to avoid writing more code
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>when scannig for newgrf, action 14 and action8 are read
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>and the md5 is calculated
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>possibly "rescan_newgrfs" does this as well, but i'm not sure
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>also, it's possible that people pass parameters that are not selectable by action14
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15:54<Eddi|zuHause>very unfortunate cut :p
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15:59<keoz>You guys where definetely right advising to use Mercurial for patching ... I love that.
15:59<andythenorth>steam hovercraft
15:59<andythenorth>how quaint
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>sail hovercraft!
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should make a steampunk ship set
16:00<andythenorth>don’t really like steampunk enough
16:00<andythenorth>I went looking for *punk that I liked
16:00<andythenorth>didn’t find any
16:01<andythenorth>this set gets closer and closer to NewShips every time I work on it :P
16:01<andythenorth>likely MB got it right years ago
16:05<frosch123>maybe try to make stuff not right
16:05<frosch123>may make it more interesting
16:06<andythenorth>I leave that to V :)
16:09<NGC3982>peter1138: The tragic thing is that i have managed that accident like five times.
16:09<NGC3982>I despice packaging like that.
16:10<@peter1138>yeah it's a pain in the arse
16:10<@peter1138>especially if you ever have to take the product back...
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16:18<Eddi|zuHause>life was so much easier before 1989. no plastic stuff that was glued to impossibly open
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>"Scheiß Westverpackungen" was a phrase my mother used very very often
16:29<andythenorth>a roster has 20-30 ships
16:29<andythenorth>maybe a fixed amount of 24, but rules get broken
16:29<andythenorth>how many rosters active at once
16:30<andythenorth>I’d only use 1
16:30<andythenorth>but I’m special
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16:56<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly is a "roster" and why do you need several at the same time?
16:58<andythenorth>I don’t
16:58<andythenorth>I need 1
16:58<andythenorth>players who insist on spamming their buy menu might want more
16:58<andythenorth>roster = sub-set of vehicles
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 06 00:00:07 2014