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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-08-08

---Logopened Fri Aug 08 00:00:16 2014
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01:54<Pikkaphone>then who was breakfast?
01:56<V453000>andythenorth IS breakfast
01:57<Pikkaphone>FISH on TOAST
01:58<V453000>yay
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02:37<Pikkaphone>there he goes now
02:39<V453000>eaten quite quickly
02:39<V453000>not worth it
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03:08<@Alberth>o/
03:10<V453000>hy
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04:18<TheBix>hey guys what happens if a train wants to reverse in a station but theres no signals?
04:18<TheBix>I mean if they want to drive straight but theres no signals
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04:21<V453000>try and see?
04:22<Xaroth|Work>what can posisbly go wrong? :P
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04:27<@Alberth>how is no signals a problem?
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04:40<TheBix>Alberth, if other trains enter the block via path signals, a train which goes straight from a station doesn't check for other trains
04:41<@Alberth>how can you have a second train without signals?
04:41<@Alberth>or how can a second train want to use the tracks of the first train?
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04:42<@Alberth>a train can turn around, and fail to reserve a new path to the exit. At that moment, it stops and continues trying to find a path
04:42<@Alberth>when it finds one, it moves again
04:43<@Alberth>assuming it is in a block entered with path signals
04:43<@Alberth>with block signals there is at most one train in a block, so it can just move
04:44<V453000>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/pota-ghat/repository/entry/src/gfx/alpine_nogrid_8bpp.png this is the correct order of landscape sprites when I replace them ?
04:44<V453000>like I can just go 3981, 3982, ... 3999 for temperate?
04:44<V453000>or does anybody know if opengfx uses it shuffled? :D
04:45<@Alberth>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/docs/tileh.png this is the orrder, I think
04:46<@Alberth>hmm, should be findable in the opengfx source I guess
04:48<TheBix>Alberth, but what if I tries to go straight. I've heard that trains continuing straight after stopping at a station don't run the algo for path signals
04:49<V453000>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/pota-ghat/repository/entry/src/gfx/alpine_nogrid_8bpp.png :d
04:49<V453000>eh
04:49<V453000> Trac detected an internal error: MemoryError:
04:49<V453000>got it now
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04:50<V453000>thanks, that helps :)
04:51<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3583/ doesn't look like it
04:52<@Alberth>although you use a different file
04:52<V453000>btw does that order make any sense? :D
04:53<@Alberth>yes, if you think in bits :p
04:54<@Alberth>corner up/down is a bit
04:54<V453000>-> does not :D
04:54<V453000>right
04:54<V453000>I see
04:54<@Alberth>at least for the first 15 or so tiles :p
04:54<V453000>aha that explains the missing 15 XD
04:55<V453000>ye
04:55<@Alberth>with steep tiles it gets messy :)
04:56<V453000>so the order in 2981-3999 sprites is : 1-14, 23 27 29 30 ?
04:56<@Alberth>TheBix: the station is nothing special for path finding. The train is *always* at a reserved path in a path-signal block.
04:57<@Alberth>thus also when it stopped at a station
04:57<@Alberth>let me find the opengfx sprite file
04:57<V453000>the thing i pasted is probably from opengfx
04:57<V453000>or ogfx+ I doubt pm changes the template there
04:58<@peter1138>0-14, no?
04:58<V453000>yes sure :D
04:58<TheBix>Alberth, so the end of a station is the same a signal?
04:58<@peter1138>TheBix, no.
04:58<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/grass-temperate.gimp.png
04:58<TheBix>right, so then a station *must* be something special for path finding
04:58<@Alberth>TheBix: for the path finding, the station does not exist
04:59<TheBix>since a train would only reserve a path too the station.
04:59<TheBix>and not past it
04:59<@Alberth>False
04:59<TheBix>so then a train reseves a path all the way through even when it stops?
04:59<@Alberth>it reserves a path to the end of the block
04:59<TheBix>ah, that makes sense
04:59<@Alberth>blocks end at a signal, and nowhere else
05:00<V453000>right
05:00<V453000>29 23 27 30 I think
05:01<V453000>plus 2x 0 at the end? :d
05:01<V453000>guess those arent loaded
05:01<@Alberth>TheBix: so if you have a station in the middle of a block, it reserves a path through the station
05:04<@Alberth>V453000: just copy the ground template :p
05:04<TheBix>Alberth, if I set up a station that can be entered from both ends, the trains sometimes exit on the wrong side when there's traffic on the correct side, how do I fix this?
05:05<V453000>Alberth: I needed to identify which sprites are which firs
05:05<V453000>t
05:06<@Alberth>there is no connection back to the right side? I would expect it to exist or the path finder won't go there
05:06<V453000>with the horrible ogfx shading it wasnt so easy
05:06<V453000>I think I have the order now
05:06<@Alberth>the bright alpine sprites help a lot there :)
05:07<@Alberth>worst case you have to swap some stuff in the template :)
05:07<V453000>got it now :D
05:08<@Alberth>what are you making?
05:08<@Alberth>sloped industries?
05:08<V453000>landscape :)
05:09<V453000>sloped industries are wtf for map generation
05:10<@Alberth>andy adapted his industry layout for slopes I think
05:11<@Alberth>things could be done a lot nicer if openttd could retrieve information about slope requirements of the industry
05:11<@Alberth>"cannot build here" gives such little information :)
05:13<V453000>well yeah
05:13<V453000>I think I have enough sprites/file size already so I would keep only flat things :P
05:14<V453000>my models dont quite fit to be separated by hills
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05:16<@Alberth>not in any trivial way no :)
05:17<@peter1138>TheBix, if you want a two-way station, you ought to put signals either side of each platform.
05:17<@peter1138>Either use block pre-signals for the whole thing, or path signals for the whole thing.
05:18<TheBix>peter1138, wait so I can't put one path signal at the start of the tree?
05:18<@Alberth>V453000: hmm, snowy arctic landscape tiles in /base/base-4404-houses-town-snow.pnml now why doesn't that strike me as the logical place for those sprites? :) It uses the same template though, so the order should be the same
05:18<V453000>:D
05:19<V453000>got it now, just need to re-order and code themz
05:19<V453000>then lets see
05:19<@Alberth>TheBix: you can, but a train reserves a path to the signal, and no other train will cross a reserved path
05:20<@Alberth>so it's a good way to claim the entire station for one train
05:21<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals#Basic_two-way_station may be useful to you
05:34<V453000>replace [<block_name>](<sprite-id>[, <image-file>]) { list of realsprites }
05:34<V453000>list of realsprites?
05:34<V453000>and can I put multiple sprite-ids there?
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05:37<V453000>or should I just put one replace and alternative sprite per each sprite I am replacing?
05:37<V453000>gets kind of repetitive :d
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05:50<V453000>breaking news: offsets are hell
05:50<@Alberth>they always are :(
05:52<V453000>I so far think I should be dealing only with Y offset
05:52<V453000>hope it is true
05:53*Alberth helps hoping
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07:23<Pokka>TheBix_, if a train has an order to stop at a (drive-through) station, it will reserve an arbitrary path on other side of the station when it enters the block, and then follow that path when it leaves. for drive-through stations, you need to put a signal immediately past the platform (or at least before any junctions) to ensure the train paths correctly when leaving the station.
07:24<Pokka>that's with reversing at end-of-line only, I don't know what happens with pathfinding if you allow reversing in stations.
07:24-!-Pokka is now known as Pikka
07:25<Pikka>wot larks
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07:37<@peter1138>Morning.
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07:48<Pikka>bordig
07:50<Pikka>how many V453000s does it take to change a lightbulb?
07:50<V453000>many
07:51<Pikka>that many, eh?
07:51<V453000>esp if the lighbulb is an extra zoom ground sprite
07:56<Pikka>I enjoy those
07:56<V453000>have you rendered any landscape yet pikka?
07:57<Pikka>a little
07:57<V453000>got some tile template already?
07:58<Pikka>more or less... I've put it aside for now though
07:58<Pikka>for newgrfs, I'm just going to pull the basic groundsprites from the base set.. that way it'll look "nice" with zbase, or yours, or whatever.
07:59<V453000>hmm
07:59<V453000>I kind of want to have 100% precise template
07:59<V453000>anyway
07:59<V453000>gtg
07:59<V453000>laterz
07:59<Pikka>bai
07:59<Pikka>I don't think mine is at all 100% precise, btw :D
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08:02<@peter1138>Make it 102% precise.
08:02<Pikka>at least
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08:23<V453000>am back :D
08:23<V453000>I tried to create some mask in photoshop
08:23<V453000>but it is total pain to have it 100% precise
08:24<@peter1138># I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
08:24<V453000>but if I want to cut tracks/roads/base tiles/everything with it I guess I kind of need it
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08:42<V453000>ha and I think I just found a mistake XD
08:42<V453000>great
08:43<Pikka>V453000, hit it with a hammer until it fits
08:44<Pikka>bugger 100% precise
08:44<V453000>idk
08:44<V453000>semi-defeated now :D
08:45<V453000>am considering something like starting from no-zoom slopes
08:45<V453000>that would probably make a lot of sense
08:46<@peter1138>put 4x4 normal-zoom sprites together...
08:48<V453000>that is not as easy as you may think
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08:50<andythenorth>o/
08:53<V453000>hi breakfast
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09:18<V453000>aha opengfx doesnt fit together either XD
09:18<V453000>xcellent
09:24<ATS63>Heh... this Australia scenario I'm modifying is becoming pretty cool.
09:25<ATS63>The british concept of roads, and having bends all over the place is stupid. And well, cause OpenTTD isn't even a good representation of reality, I made all the cities 3x3 grid roads
09:25<ATS63>If only the australian government did that over 100 years ago
09:26<andythenorth>OpenTTD’s representation of reality is truly shocking
09:26<andythenorth>I am appalled
09:26<ATS63>Time is the best one. kph? Should be kpd
09:27<ATS63>I wonder what kind of "Passenger" will wait at a train station for several months in any year higher than 2000
09:27-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>what's a "k" then?
09:27<@peter1138>kilopixels?
09:27<ATS63>kilometres
09:28<Xaroth|Work>kibipixels
09:28<andythenorth>koalapixels
09:28<ATS63>heh
09:28<ATS63>koalapixels per hour
09:28*andythenorth -> back to deleting stuff
09:28<andythenorth>bye
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09:30<ATS63>This australia scenario exposes some...
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>a vehicle running 128km/h-ish moves one step per tick, so sqrt(5) pixels per 33.33... ms.
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>lets assume 96dpi
09:30<V453000>:d
09:30<ATS63>So there are 2 oil refineries in au? Melb and newcastle or something. 1024x1024 map, hell even 512x512, oil wells in NT or WA are well outside reach
09:31<ATS63>For an oil ship
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sqrt(5)/(33/1000/3600)/96/2.54/100
09:31<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 10.0038832207
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>so a vehicle travelling 128-km/h-ish in-game actually travels 10km/h
09:33<ATS63>per tick..
09:33<ATS63>I'm assuming that isn't a second
09:33<ATS63>but something far greater, like an hour
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>33/1000/3600 is the tick->hour conversion
09:34<ATS63>Ahh, k
09:34<ATS63>Damn. That is slow. I can run that fast :/
09:35<ATS63>Except for my dangerously obesity. That slows me down.
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>not over an hour :)
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>except maybe if you like marathons
09:35<ATS63>Yea umm...
09:35<ATS63>I did north face 100... 120km run in a day.
09:37<ATS63>Nice to know I'm faster than OpenTTD vehicles
09:37<ATS63>At worst, on a bicycle
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>not if you lower the resolution :)
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>or zoom in :)
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10:37<V453000>sooo
10:37<V453000>jinks:
10:37<V453000>eh
10:37<V453000>wrong channel
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10:55<Pikka>doesn't it
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause>WE ARE ALL CATTLE!
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9NhhnnWoTQ
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12:30<ATS65>Am I supposed to be mooooved?
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14:41<Wolf01>hi hi
14:44<andythenorth>o/
14:44<@Alberth>\o
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14:48<Pikka>hm
14:49<Wolf01>yes
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14:51<Wolf01>my stupid usb zyxel wifi dongle doesn't want to be used as an access point
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14:52<andythenorth>lo pikka bob
14:52<Pikka>lo andybob
14:52<Pikka>what's gnu?
14:53<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6386/squid_brit.png
14:53<andythenorth>less
14:53<andythenorth>that’s the Blighty roster
14:53<andythenorth>I wish someone would fix the sprites :P
14:53<andythenorth>but there is no santa claus
14:53<Pikka>such blighty
14:54<Pikka>but a boat is a boat, isn't it? how do you
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14:54<andythenorth>well I just do
14:54<Wolf01>what about adding the ss great eastern to that set?
14:54<andythenorth>I don’t know, it comes naturally
14:54<Pikka>isn't the oztralian or wherever roster going to be 90% the same?
14:55<andythenorth>Pikka: well yes maybes
14:55<andythenorth>do first, regret alter
14:55<andythenorth>later *
14:55<Pikka>also
14:55<Pikka>blighty is "realism" or something
14:55<andythenorth>Wolf01: ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Great_Britain
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14:55<andythenorth>Pikka: only if all ships in UK are 70mph hovercraft after 1968 :D
14:56<Wolf01>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Great_Eastern
14:57<andythenorth>it’s a big old beast
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14:58<andythenorth>Pikka: maybe an australia roster is not a thing :)
14:58<andythenorth>it would probably have super-zippy austral cats
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14:59<andythenorth>and some convict ships :P
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15:06<andythenorth>http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/itemimages/156/995/156995_large.jpg
15:06<andythenorth>funny looking QLD ferries? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/North_Stradbroke_Island_Vehicle_Barges.jpg
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15:30<Pikka>are they funny looking?
15:31<andythenorth>the blue one is
15:31<andythenorth>this is a good site http://uglyships.wordpress.com
15:33<Pikka>jakken is pretty good
15:33<Pikka>you should do that one
15:34<andythenorth>tempted
15:35<andythenorth>apparently it fits under a 14.99m length
15:35<andythenorth>so it is license exempt
15:35<Pikka>yes
15:35*Pikka would be tempted to make a ship that's just less than 14.99m wide
15:35<Pikka>and then claim it moves sideways
15:36<andythenorth>http://www.offshoreenergytoday.com/pgs-new-ship-takes-seismic-acquisition-to-a-new-level/
15:37<Wolf01>I'm tempted to convert to steampunk the game I'm writing
15:37<andythenorth>steampunk is a bit odd
15:37<andythenorth>it never clicks for me
15:38<andythenorth>kind of cool
15:38<andythenorth>but not quite
15:40<Wolf01>as now it's set at our days
15:40<Wolf01>but I'm a bit limited by the environment
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16:03<andythenorth>hmm
16:03<andythenorth>I want a set, but with order (python)
16:03<andythenorth>that is a tricky ask
16:07<andythenorth>so
16:07<andythenorth>ships, max sensible capacity (tankers, general cargo)?
16:08<andythenorth>currently 1.2m litres or 1200t
16:08*andythenorth thinks a bit bigger
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16:42<iCookRice>yep
16:42<iCookRice>hello everyone
16:44<iCookRice>i am trying to load a height map on a dedicated server, have already tried using a newheightmapgame patch, which patched in and compiled, but does not successfully work
16:44<iCookRice>i crash when trying to execute the command
16:47<frosch123>just create a save with a gui client, and transfer it to the server
16:47<frosch123>imo that is the easiest way for all cases
16:48<iCookRice>which is what i thought of doing, but that would mean that my industries and towns are the same at every game creation?
16:49<frosch123>yes, just like the heights :)
16:52<iCookRice>okay, so if i do that, how can i make towns in my scenario spawn in the 2x2 grid setting
16:54<iCookRice>also, what is the flattest i can get a map with opened.cfg? i do not see a flatness setting like on a gui new game creation
16:54<iCookRice>am i just missing something obvious?
16:55<frosch123>you can use the scenario editor or a height map
16:56<frosch123>the terrain generator is meant to generate terrain
16:56<frosch123>a flat map is no terrain
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16:56<iCookRice>how does that relate to the .cfg though
16:57<iCookRice>in .cfg, i have options for 0 (original) or 1 (TGP)
16:57<frosch123>no idea, it kind of confuses me that you want to randomise towns and industries, but not terrain :)
16:58<iCookRice>i just like having as flat as a map as possible
16:58<iCookRice>but varying industries gives me something different each game
16:58<iCookRice>is there a way to get a flatter map in the .cfg?
16:58<frosch123>no
16:58<iCookRice>patching and whatnot is just too much work
16:59<frosch123>maybe you disabled realistic acceleration or so
16:59<iCookRice>so how does the "flatness" option in the guy new game cross over to the command line?
16:59<iCookRice>realistic acceleration is on
16:59<frosch123>i wouldn't know why anyone would want to play on a flat map, except when using original acceleration
16:59<iCookRice>it's more about building layout
16:59<iCookRice>and not having to level everything manually when i want to build huge depots
17:00<frosch123>anyway, create the cfg with a gui client, and transfer it
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17:26<b_jonas>I like to level everything, but I like that to be a challenge so I don't play on very flat maps (I don't play on very hilly maps either though)
17:26<b_jonas>and I can't just level everything because sometimes the stations are on a very different height
17:26<b_jonas>um
17:26<b_jonas>I mean the industries
17:27<b_jonas>like, the forest is high up in the mountains and the sawmill on the plains six levels belo
17:27<b_jonas>I can place the stations a bit closer in height, but there's still some difference in height the train has to climb
17:27<b_jonas>luckily for wood it typically has to go downwards, not up
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18:08<__ln__>how does one measure sunlight in inches?
18:08<frosch123>like you measure rain
18:08<frosch123>just take the height of the photon pile on the ground
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18:11<__ln__>inch is a unit of how long it is until sunset. but how?
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18:12<Wolf01>'night all
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18:13<frosch123>night
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18:52<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I want a set, but with order (python) <-- i'd probably start with typing "ordered set python" into google and see what comes out. there's bound to be an existing library for that somewhere
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19:02<Jinassi>anyone have any idea if scenarios from ttd are still under copyright?
19:02<Jinassi>or, if they even fall under that category
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>yes
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>they definitely do
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19:06<Jinassi>oh dear, then it's the same as origigi graphics
19:06<Jinassi>thank you
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---Logclosed Sat Aug 09 00:00:20 2014