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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-08-10

---Logopened Sun Aug 10 00:00:23 2014
00:09<Eddi|zuHause>my irony detector spontaneously combusted.
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03:19<andythenorth>hi Alberth
03:19<@Alberth>how did the pickle sleep?
03:20<andythenorth>instead of changing two important data structures everywhere in the compile
03:21<andythenorth>I wrote this
03:21<andythenorth>condition=" in roster.buy_menu_sort_order"
03:21<andythenorth>which took 30s
03:21<andythenorth>7 hours of hard sleeping to get to that mind
03:22<@Alberth>so that was profitable rest :)
03:22<andythenorth>the world must be full of excessive code written by sleep deprvied developers
03:23<@Alberth>code typing is much easier than smart thinking :)
03:23<andythenorth>read this last week, interesting
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03:31<Eddi|zuHause><Alberth> code typing is much easier than smart thinking :) <-- this is basically a variation of what my professor taught: "a bad programmer will produce 100 lines of code per hour. a good programmer will produce 10 lines of code per hour"
03:31<@peter1138>I do end-to-end testing.
03:32-!-Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:6c7d:feca:86fd:80ec] has joined #openttd
03:36<@peter1138>Except in ottd, then I just commit without testing anything.
03:37<@peter1138>Why bother compiling even?
03:46<andythenorth>that’s what a compile farm is for :P
03:52<@Alberth>I mostly just test whether the demonstrated bug in the specific use case is fixed
03:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so what i gather from being halfway through the article is: "if a test succeeds [or fails] a lot of times in a row, run this test less often, to use the computation time more effectively"
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03:59<andythenorth>also succeeding tests cause a false sense of security
03:59<andythenorth>tests often fail to be maintained against changes
03:59<andythenorth>but the test run reports green for months on end
04:00<andythenorth>causes too much reliance on tests passing, verus up-front design
04:01<ATS63>Well if we're talking about bugs... it would be cool if ships couldn't sail through each other
04:01<Eddi|zuHause>i've never really done automatic testing
04:01<Eddi|zuHause>ATS63: that is not a bug
04:01<andythenorth>automatic testing is good
04:01<andythenorth>over-provisioning unit tests adds a lot of cost, for possibly limited real gain
04:02<ATS63>Well then, it could be a "feature request"
04:02<ATS63>Ships could crash, by sailing into each other.
04:03<ATS63>Airplanes should have the same behaviour
04:04*andythenorth does stupid thing
04:05<andythenorth>dunno why I care about keeping vehicle IDs ‘neat and tidy'
04:05<andythenorth>it’s such a non-issue :P
04:05<andythenorth>anyway, they’re all tidy now
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04:06<Eddi|zuHause>ATS64: imho, that would make a bad game that i wouldn't want to play.
04:07<ATS64>Provided there was new code that made it an unlikely event to occur, I disagree
04:07<Eddi|zuHause>ATS64: especially for airplanes, which easily might fly in different altitudes even though they are on the same tile
04:08<ATS64>Might, except they ascend & descend over the same number of tiles at the same angle :)
04:08<@Alberth>let's first start by an algorithm that makes it possible without taking loads of CPU time
04:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, the game actually does implement different altitudes. but because this has no gameplay value, it only does this very crudely based on speed
04:09<ATS64>I'm no science expert but I think that means all aircraft fly at the same altitude
04:09<andythenorth>don’t ruin my ships :(
04:10<Eddi|zuHause>if you watch closely, you see planes changing altitude on approaching a holding pattern, or breaking down
04:11<ATS64>The algorithm for ships wouldn't need to be complicated. Follow the maritime rules.
04:12<andythenorth>ship tile pathfinding is already rather demanding on CPU
04:12<andythenorth>a game with a large number of ships will run your battery down fast
04:14<ATS64>It could be an option that can be disabled in the advanced settings?
04:14<ATS64>The advantage is, it would introduce congestion issues to ships
04:15<Eddi|zuHause>ATS64: but sometimes, even very simple code has very high computational complexity
04:17<andythenorth>ATS64: it has been discussed many times before ;)
04:18<andythenorth>it is on a list of things that a probably never going to happen, like subways and roadtypes
04:18<andythenorth>and daylength
04:18<andythenorth>are *
04:19<ATS64>hmm... subways would be cool too
04:22<@Alberth>ATS64: now you need to come up with a receipt that implements the rules, and works in every circumstance
04:23<@Alberth>without taking a lot of steps
04:24<@Alberth>unlike the real world, there are no actual humans aboard each ship that understand the rules, and decide what to do
04:25<ATS64>You mean I'm paying $38kpa in running costs, and theres no human controlling this ferry? I always thought they were chinese
04:26<@Alberth>sorry to disappoint you
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04:27<Eddi|zuHause>is this a case of "i don't have a hard drive, i have a bunch of chinese people in the basement memorizing numbers"
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04:27<Eddi|zuHause>.... also, can you fix your connection?
04:29<andythenorth>should be src/docs
04:29<andythenorth>lang_src is even stupider
04:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: not a thing i would worry about...
04:30<andythenorth>just ugly
04:30<andythenorth>I’ll ignore it
04:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i suppose that falls into the category of "do not touch a running system"
04:31<ATS63>Something like that
04:32<ATS63>I'm trying to find the asian responsible for my connection issues so I may punish them by reducing their rice allowance. Its not even wacist
04:33<ATS63>Whats a good client for windows?
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04:34<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue, i only ever used the one everybody else is using, and i haven't used windows much in the last 8 years at all
04:35<ATS63>I guess I could ssh to a lunix machine
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>and "everybody else is using it" is not a measurement for "good"
04:35<@Alberth>just install linux :)
04:35<ATS63>I have many lunix machines. But not on the desktop, no thanks, I like being able to work
04:36*andythenorth will bbl
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04:36<@Alberth>I have the problem the other way around, windows prevents me from working effectively
04:37<ATS63>I do a great deal of video encoding on this machine. Also I'm an amateur radio licensee, have about 6 radios hooked up to this machine, the software is windows or not at all :/
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>i have a different problem. i prevent myself from working effectively
04:37<ATS63>Oh yeah and outlook is pretty cool too
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04:39<ATS63_>Better? I'm a lunix
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04:42<ATS63>I'm an IPv6 lunix... even better
04:45<__ln__>is this something like "i'm a pc - i'm a mac"
04:46<ATS63>I'm a raspberry pi. Eat me.
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>maybe if there were a raspberry tau...
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04:47<@Alberth>raspberry τ :)
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04:49<Eddi|zuHause>ATS63: so far, this did not solve the problem of constant leaving and joining :p
04:49<ATS63>I'm remembering how to use this damn thing :(
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05:00*andythenorth ponders a Euro roster with 100% inland boats
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05:11<Pikkaphone>should be a law against it
05:12<Pikkaphablet> /nick andythenorth
05:12<@Alberth>claim all user names starting with pikka
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05:13<Pikkaphone>perhaps I will
05:13<Pikkaphone>and enforce it by deactivating myself if I see anyone else use one
05:14<@Alberth>good idea
05:15<@Alberth>you can also supply modified names to that person, that are compatible
05:15<andythenorth>is there a name translation table?
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06:03*Pikkaphone translates Alberth to Jim Fnutt
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06:08*Alberth feels nutty
06:08<andythenorth>Pikkaphone: if there were ship hulls and ship houses and ship holds
06:09<andythenorth>could make them like lego
06:09<andythenorth>what rendereisinginging software do you use?
06:09<Pikkaphone>for renderererererering
06:09<andythenorth>no max on macs
06:09<Pikkaphone>milkshape for modeling
06:10<andythenorth>I could use virtualbox or something
06:10<andythenorth>but maybe my 3D days are behind me
06:11<Pikkaphone>true, but you could put bits together and I could render them. Or I could just render a lot of variations and you could use the ones you want
06:11<andythenorth>I like option 2
06:12<Pikkaphone>4 hulls, 4 houses, 4 greebleyequipments
06:13<Pikkaphone>that's 64 ships, heaps
06:15<andythenorth>big heap ships
06:15<andythenorth>this is where FISH started
06:15<andythenorth>I didn’t draw that, tweaked someone else’s thing
06:15<andythenorth>I kind of wonder if the simple boxy style is better than all this realism-shmism
06:16<Pikkaphone>chunky is good for ttd
06:17<Pikkaphone>I should do a boat, work out a scale
06:17<andythenorth>do a wooden one
06:18<Pikkaphone>wooden pixels
06:18<Pikkaphone>and wouldn't you?
06:21<andythenorth>I would
06:21<andythenorth>maybe 20-30 ships per roster
06:22<andythenorth>maybe 3 or 6 rosters
06:22<Pikkaphone>that's a lot of ships
06:22<andythenorth>too many
06:22<Pikkaphone>ships on a roster
06:22<Pikkaphone>planes on a snake
06:23<andythenorth>sharks on a bear
06:23<andythenorth>sausage inna bun
06:23<Pikkaphone>horses for courses
06:24<frosch123>someone knows what silly grf causes the effect in fs#6079?
06:24<Pikkaphone>bungle in the jungle
06:24<Pikkaphone>link to fs for the lazy?
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06:26<frosch123>the sprites seem to come from vactrains
06:26<frosch123>but the vacuum mail vanm, which is introducted > 2000 has 37 capacity :p
06:26<frosch123>ah, maglev
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06:29<Pikkaphone>I don't know the grf, but I suspect the problem is rail type related
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06:31<frosch123>yeah, looks like a maglev wagon which is compatible to normal rail or something
06:32<frosch123>so, should we remove the arctic climate?
06:32<frosch123>every two months someone opens a fs task, about no forests or farms being available
06:33<frosch123>maybe hardlock "mountainious" and "no variety distribution", unless password is gioven
06:34<andythenorth>definitely consider removing it
06:34<andythenorth>less stuff is better
06:35<Pikkaphone>Arctic heart of darkness
06:35<Pikkaphone>mmm, cold coffee
06:39<andythenorth>might do an antarctic economy for FIRSES
06:39<andythenorth>primary industries: ‘nodules’, ‘methane’
06:39<andythenorth>ski planes
06:39<andythenorth>cat trains
06:39<andythenorth>ice breaker
06:39<pthagnar>ice cores
06:40<Pikkaphone>penguin processor
06:44<Pikkaphone>small round things
06:45<Pikkaphone>time to go home
06:46<Pikkaphone>and either work on uni assignments or on boot rosters
06:47<Pikkaphone>or on the last loco for the 10cc update, I suppose
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06:49<andythenorth>all the things
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06:57<@Alberth>frosch123: there are more such dependencies, eg map size vs industry density
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07:04<@Alberth>frosch123: finnish set? has these weird named flat wagons, it seems
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07:14<@Alberth>andythenorth: why this snow mobile guy go to the middle of lots of snow and ice, to open a package with an ice crystal in it?
07:14<andythenorth>collecting rare crystals
07:15<@Alberth>but he brought the crystal with him :p
07:19<andythenorth>the lego back story makes no sense
07:20<@Alberth>it looks spiffy, that's what counts :)
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07:22<Pikka>they don't have to worry about back stories any more
07:23<Pikka>now 99% of what they make is licenced movie merchandise
07:24<andythenorth>also there are no bricks any more
07:24<andythenorth>just one big part
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07:49<andythenorth>livestock barge?
07:49<andythenorth>google can’t find any real ones in Europe, but, eh?
07:52<@Alberth>sounds like fun
07:53<@Alberth>move MOO fast, it's in a hurry :)
07:54<andythenorth>it’s the Sound of Moo
07:55*andythenorth should compile before committing
07:56<andythenorth>reduces errors :P
07:57<@Alberth>not really, but you catch them quicker :p
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you disallow transporting cargo because of "realism", then you get UKRS, which is a BAD FEATURE
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>which you can easily read up in the BAD FEATURES thread
07:59<andythenorth>a silly small coaster
08:00<andythenorth>I have all these sprites lying around :D
08:00<@Alberth>all spread out on the floor :)
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>motorboat: 5hp, capacity 2 persons (or 1 ton)
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>or 4 persons, 2 crates, 1 ton
08:02<Eddi|zuHause><Alberth> all spread out on the floor :) <-- somehow that is the natural state of lego pieces
08:03<@Alberth>yeah, used to do that too :)
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>and it's not limited to lego
08:04<@Alberth>furniture has this property too :)
08:04<@Alberth>meh, we already have Game Settings :(
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>"Game Settings" maybe should be "System Settings"
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>and "Advanced Settings" should be "Game Settings"
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08:07<@Alberth>no, it's Game as in the currently played game
08:07<@Alberth>I changed Advanced Settings to Program Settings now, let's see how that looks
08:08<andythenorth>so does the Danube or the Rhine have trawlers? o_O
08:10<@peter1138>More Settings
08:10<@peter1138>UKRS, so bad, everyone loved it.
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if one has them, the other has them too. they are connected by a canal
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>(well, technically it's the Main-Donau canal)
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>so you can go all the way from the north sea to the black sea
08:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: thanks :)
08:18<andythenorth>but do they fish in the river? o_O
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08:21<Eddi|zuHause>are there fish in the river?
08:22<andythenorth>dunno :)
08:22<andythenorth>doubt FIRS will build in rivers
08:22<andythenorth>maybe it should
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08:48<keoz>I don't think there are much fish there, no :)
08:48<@Alberth>all the bears caught it!
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>poor bruno :(
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>(Bruno was a wild brown bear that migrated from austria into bavaria a some years ago. and they shot him)
08:52<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r26725 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-08-10 12:52:23 UTC)
08:52<@DorpsGek>-Fix: String pointed the user to a non-existent group of settings.
08:55<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i thought he was from italy?
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>there is no border between germany and italy :p
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08:57<__ln__>speak of the wolf
08:57<Wolf01>what, daylength again?
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>no, __ln__ is just confused what's a wolf and what's a bear :p
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>maybe these finns are too urbanized and don't know the difference anymore
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09:00<Eddi|zuHause>actually, there is quite a controversity about repopulation of wolves that spread from poland into eastern germany
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>farmers are afraid they will kill too many livestock, like sheep
09:02<Wolf01>7 sheeps and 2 deers here 2 days ago killed by a couple of wolves
09:03<Wolf01>and at least 6 cows, 2 donkeys and some other livestock killed by a bear in the last month
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>"the singular of sheep should be shoop"
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>(which is wrong, because it should of course be "shaap")
09:08<Pikka>and the plural of hoop should be heep
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>what is a hoop anyway?
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>i know what a hoof is
09:10<Pikka>a hoop
09:10<Pikka>is a disc
09:10<Pikka>with an hole in it, innit
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>i really have no idea
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09:12<Eddi|zuHause>i guess they left that word out in english class
09:12<Pikka>the best known hoop is a hula hoop
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose that makes some sense...
09:14<Wolf01>I always thought that hoop in hula hoop was an exclamation
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't have made that association. because in german, the "hoop" in "hula hoop" is pronounced with a short u, not a long u
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>as such, i would also not spelled it that way
09:16<Wolf01>we pronounce it like "hop"
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like in "allez hop"?
09:18<Wolf01>it could be, I don't know that one
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's a common circus phrase
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>i would have translated it as "go jump"
09:22<Pikka>it's all about barrels
09:22<Pikka>a metal ring around a barrel is a hoop, a metal ring around a wheel is a tyre. in german it's all Reifen.
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10:45<TheBix>guys now that we have cargodist, is it not possible to make the user able to configure the amount of cargo delivered to a certain station per month and finally add some much needed functionality to the game?
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11:06<@Alberth>how does one need cargo dist for that?
11:06<@Alberth>it sounds like something that a lot of game scripts are already doing
11:07<@Alberth>despite cargo dist, mostly
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i think it's more like "at this station i enter that i want X amount per month, and then cargodist figures out how much share it must reserve for this route on the origin station(s)"
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>which is currently this obscure and not very customizable "demand" function
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: game scripts can say "deliver X amount here to get Y reward", but they can't influence cargodist to make this delivery
11:25<@Alberth>the only use case I see where you want that to set manually is woth *supplies of FIRS
11:25<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: true, game scripts needs to be able to influence cargo dist
11:26<@Alberth>which would be a good step imho
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>it's also the maximum capacities of PBI and ECS
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>which is currently horribly incompatible with cargodist
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>as you cannot say "lower the share for this industry"
11:26<@Alberth>it's horribly incompatible with ttd
11:27<@Alberth>what's the point of having max acceptance, if you automate it away with cdist?
11:27<@Alberth>you might as well have industries without such max limits
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>the point is that you have to service more secondary industries, instead of shoving the whole map to one location
11:29<@Alberth>sure, but you don't need an industry set with max capacity for that, if you have game script control over cargo dist
11:30<Pikka>the industry set, of course, predates both gamescript and cargodist. :P
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>and it's not automatted, you have to set the "demand share" manually, if you see that the automatic distribution allocates too much to this one station
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>i think game script is the worst solution to this problem
11:30<@Alberth>Pikka: yeah, but to argue need for setting an upper limit in cdist for such industry sets is thus backwards reasoning
11:31<Pikka>gamescript is the worst solution to almost every problem
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is that the two ideas "maximum input" and "cargodist" are incompatible. how is throwing another layer of incompatibility on top of it going to solve anything?
11:31<@Alberth>I'd say it's a newgrf trying to global optimization without global overview :p
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>it's not global optimization
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>it's completely local to the industry
11:32<@Alberth>right, and controlling number of industries, keeping decision to close locally instead of globally?
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>"if stockpile > value: stop accepting" is 100% self-contained
11:33<@Alberth>it won't ever work
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>now this works very well on its own. but cargodist gets horribly confused by targets suddenly disappearing and reappearing
11:34<@Alberth>stockpile limits are indeed local, and that's fine
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>but cargodist already has this "demand" function builtin, which could help solve this (as long as the total production is less than the total consumption)
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>but the player has no way to influence it
11:35<@Alberth>neither does the newgrf
11:35<@Alberth>or does the newgrf cooperate in the world
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>the newgrf does not have to
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>the newgrf stays exactly like it is
11:35<@Alberth>sure, then give back the global things to the game engine!!
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>the player gets a new interface to cargodist, by adjusting the demand value of a station up or down
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>no interference between grf and cargodist.
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>everything is in the hands of the player
11:37<@Alberth>fun, with 3,500 industries
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but you don't connect 3500 industries all at once
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>you add an industry to your network
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>you identify bottlenecks
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>you solve them
11:39<@Alberth>ecs does change the limits
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>you identify the next bottlenecks
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>you solve them
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that's not the point
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the point is, that when you get the news message "limit exceeded", you have the option as player to influence your network in a way to adjust
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>which you currently can't
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot reduce the number of trains servicing the route, because cargodist will still send the same amount of cargo, it will just pile up at some transfer station
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>but like i said, the functionality is all there. it's just lacking an interface
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause>oh, something else about cargodist. it has this "planned" view, but it's entirely unclear which timeframe this applies to. it would be more useful to know things like "average deliveries per month"
12:29<frosch123>i am quite sure it is "per month"
12:29<frosch123>i wouldn't know any other unit that would make sense
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12:37<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: per linkgraph update interval?
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>i could probably come up with a dozen things it could mean. the problem is that it doesn't say it.
12:38<frosch123>well, check the station supply then :)
12:38<frosch123>and compare it to the industry production
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12:41<frosch123> <- Eddi|zuHause: those docs say "per month"
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: too many derivative steps to be comprehensive
12:42<frosch123>there are api functions in that diff, which specfiy their unit
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13:28<keoz>Little question: when using a "return (a && b)" statement, can I assume as a sure thing, that "a" will always be evaluated before "b" ? Additionally, if "a" is "false", is "b" still going to be evaluated ?
13:29<@peter1138>1 yes 2 no
13:30<keoz>Perfect. I had a doubt whether it's just a usual or standard behaviour. Thanks.
13:30*FLHerne hates people who exploit that as an extra conditional and then ignore the return value of b :P
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>it's one of the rare cases where behaviour of C is actually defined :p
13:31<@peter1138>FLHerne, (a && b) clearly doesn't ignore the return value of b, if a is true.
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember that (borland) pascal had compiler flags where you could turn lazy evaluation on or off
13:33<frosch123>yes, it had
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>also, overflow checking and stuff which C doesn't have by design
13:34<frosch123>{$Q+} {$R+} {$S+} :)
13:35<frosch123>array bounds, overflows, stack
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. that was aaaaaages ago
13:35<frosch123>today you use valgrind :p
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13:38<FLHerne>peter1138: I don't mean syntactically, I mean people who write a 'bool something() { dostuff(); return true; }' :o
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: what does that have to do with the question?
13:38<FLHerne>Which isn't even useful, because you could put it in the body of the 'if' anyway
13:39<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: There seem to be crazy people who write functions that always return true, and then use short-circuit evaluation to conditionally call them
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>they could, like, use the comma operator?
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>thing about programming languages: there's an infinite number of ways to do the same stuff.
13:41<frosch123> <- you mean shit like that? :p
13:42<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Ooh, I haven't even seen that before. How have I missed that? :D
13:42<frosch123> is down, else i could link you to the crappiest nforenum code i encountered :)
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>the station rating code uses this a lot
13:43<Rubidium>frosch123: you mean there is relatively uncrappy nforenum code?
13:43<frosch123>but i believe i ranted about it before :)
13:43<frosch123>Rubidium: no, i mean some which even stands out compared to the rest
13:44<andythenorth>the problem with ship rosters
13:44<andythenorth>is providing variety
13:44<andythenorth>so many obligatory ships
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that rail_cmd line i'd probably have expressed as something along the lines of "x = a + ord(b)"
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26726 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-08-10 17:45:52 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 4 changes by telanus
13:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 1 changes by juanjo
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: possibly with an "assert_compile(B1<B2, B2<B3, ...)"
13:49<andythenorth>maybe you just always get a couple of small ferries and a couple of fishing boats
13:49<andythenorth>always same
13:50<andythenorth>and other stuff varies
13:50<@Alberth>depends on when your game starts?
13:50<frosch123>just call them roster 1 to roster 5 and randomly distribute the vehicles over them for every release
13:51<frosch123>that way you do not have to wonder about their purpose, but let others figure it out
13:52<andythenorth>the world is not short of types of ships
13:52<andythenorth>but I’m not going to bloody draw them all
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>that is a wonderful strategy if you define your existence by the number of support requests
13:53<frosch123>well, looking outside, a ship may be useful currently
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably still taking a while to get here
13:54<frosch123>well, at that intensity it will be over in a few minutes :)
13:54<andythenorth>same here
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14:10<Pikka>the perfect grf has every stat for every vehicle as a grf parameter
14:10<Pikka>players like customisation, right?
14:11<frosch123>yeah, but i still wonder how to customise pixel positions via parameters
14:11<FLHerne>Pikka: Yep
14:11<Rubidium>Pikka: wrong... the perfect GRF does exactly the thing the user wants at all and any time
14:11<FLHerne>Then all the pixel colours as parameters, too :-)
14:12<Rubidium>he wants to play with unreal capacity 19th century trains one maglev... (yay steampunk?)... then the GRF arranges that
14:12<Rubidium>she wants to play with pink unicorns on horse tracks, then the GRF arranges that
14:13<frosch123>oh, i also want the latter
14:14<Rubidium>they want to play together? Then he sees only maglev 19th century trains, whereas she sees the unicorns on horse track. They go at different speeds, but heck... we'd just call it adaptive game speed ;)
14:23<andythenorth> /me makes that grf
14:31<andythenorth>if I make a river boat roster, should it have sea ships in it? o_O
14:32<Pikka>boo to rivers and canals
14:33<andythenorth>I’m ignoring the speed thingy
14:35<V453000>boo to rivers and canals
14:35<V453000>go wetrail
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15:11<Eddi|zuHause><FLHerne> Then all the pixel colours as parameters, too :-) <-- you run out of parameters quickly
15:12<FLHerne>The refit window already got abused to support nicely customisable vehicles, just demand more parameters
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if people want both river boats and ocean boats, they can select two rosters?
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15:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: only if we find a way to enable two rosters
15:40<@planetmaker>good evening
15:40<andythenorth>current group think was a single action 14 param to choose a single roster ;)
15:40<frosch123>hai pm :)
15:40<frosch123>everything broken when you were gone :p
15:41*andythenorth designing by committee
15:41<@planetmaker>so world went crashing? Anything of importance? :P
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, there are two easy options: 1) a ship may be in more than one roster, so you get a "european river", "european sea" and "all european" roster
15:42<frosch123>redmine went down, spike had to trigger hard reset, but the reboot also had issues. right now, hg via http(s) is still broken
15:42<frosch123>oh, and jenkins fails or so
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>2) give two selectors, e.g. one for river and one for sea, each having a "none" option. or have all rosters available in each, and don't care about duplicate selections
15:42<@planetmaker>uh. meh
15:42<@Alberth>jenkins was fixed again
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15:44<Eddi|zuHause>if your ship availability is defined by "climate avalailability = (selector1==A || selector1==B || selector2==A || selector2==B)" then there is no problem with either 1) or 2)
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>CETS does a mixture of both
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>there is one selector for each time era
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>but a vehicle can be in multiple eras and multiple companies for each era
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>the overlap between eras is so you actually have vehicles available for a 1920 start if you disabled the 1870-1920 era
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>and the overlap between companies is for cargo wagons and stuff, which were rather unified
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>which has the side effect of you not having 20 different-but-same open wagons if you select "all companies"
15:48<andythenorth>I could do a ‘big’ roster
15:49<andythenorth>I always find there’s no gameplay purpose to including both river boats and sea ships together
15:49<andythenorth>they duplicate sizes
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds perfectly reasonable
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>(wo are you and what have you done with andy?)
15:51<@planetmaker>right... rhodecode is for another day. No immediate clue why it fails
15:51<@planetmaker>it's up and running, but not accessible, or so it seems
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>ports were blocked while it started?
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>or other weird stuff(tm)
15:52<@planetmaker>and... now it works
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes. i'm that good.
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>i think the ship just arrived
15:59<andythenorth>river or sea? o_O
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>not sure yet
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>but apparently it took about 2 hours
16:00<@planetmaker>I can tell you that there's a big difference between sea worthy and inland water worthy ;)
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose there will be a few centuries until sea ships reach my place
16:01<@planetmaker>well. Sea ships can go inlands. But inland ships cannot go safely onto the sea :)
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>my house is at about 130m, the river is about 90m above sea level
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16:03<Eddi|zuHause>there's not a lot of inland ship traffic on the river either, because the current economic size of ships doesn't fit anymore, and expanding the limiting section takes a lot of monew which nobody wants to spend
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>so we now have this brand new harbour which no ship will reach in the near future
16:04<@planetmaker>sounds reasonable. As tax-money sink
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16:05<Eddi|zuHause>well they do have a railway connection, so they are using it to load containers onto trucks and stuff
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>but it still accumulates negative profit
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's better than Leipzig anyway, which has a harbour since ~1830, and no ship has ever reached it, because the canal was never completed
16:08<andythenorth>build student flats on it
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>they started like 3 times, and each time they made significant progress, some war came along and consumed all the investment capital
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>so for the last 70 years they were stuck with a halfway completed canal, and some bridges over flat land
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>some crazy people want to continue building, but there's no expectation that any kind of freight will ever be transported on the canal after completion, so they're hoping for tourism
16:15<Rubidium>are there enough low wage jobs in that area?
16:17<Rubidium>if not, buy them a shovel and wheelbarrow and they can start digging ;)
16:17<Rubidium>here they even "rerouted" a canal to pass a village that had very high unemployment
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16:35<Eddi|zuHause>that method has gone out of favour since the 1930s
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>not really sure why, because that went very well back then :p
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19:14<iCookRice>hello everyone, is there any way in the default .cfg (no mods/patches) to reduce or eliminate trees ?
19:22<+glx>you can hide them
19:38<@peter1138>they are a gameplay mechanic, not just visual
19:38<Supercheese>You can select no trees at map gen IIRC
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19:48<Eddi|zuHause>and you can disable the growth of new trees in settings
19:51<iCookRice>is that in the .cfg?
19:51<iCookRice>for a dedicated server
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20:01<Eddi|zuHause>but if you load a savegame, the value from cfg is ignored
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20:25<ATS63>Weird. Why would anyone just donate bitcoins for no reason? Because we're nice?
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21:43<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose even the most stupid of scams will find victims
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 11 00:00:25 2014