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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-08-16

---Logopened Sat Aug 16 00:00:42 2014
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02:20<Eddi|zuHause> <ST2> NUTS is how I get among "nut" files :D <-- nut files are for squirrel.
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02:48<Eddi|zuHause>"two people die in chess turnament"
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03:45<Eddi|zuHause>i'm afraid not...
03:53<Rubidium>actually... it was a 14 day event with 3000 participants, assuming all participant being there for all time and using the average chance of dieing (in UK/US), I would say that on average one participant dies during such an event
03:59<Eddi|zuHause>there was apparently also some controversy about people thinking the medics running about with the defibrilator were terrorists with a weapon
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04:03<Rubidium>it could be just one person not recognising it as a defibrilator. Especially since it was in Norway where about three years ago some dude dressed as cop killed 77 people. One person shouting gun, the rest reacts as if there is a gun and there is an immediate frenzy
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04:26<Eddi|zuHause>but that is exactly why the terrorists won ages ago...
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04:34<Pikka>yep, we should definitely cultivate a culture where no-one reacts at all in an emergency. that'll show those terrorists.
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>don't feed the trolls
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04:49<Wolf01>hello o/
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06:06<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26734 trunk/src/script/api/script_list.hpp (2014-08-16 10:05:57 UTC)
06:06<@DorpsGek>-Fix-ish: make clear the AI/GS List's Begin and Next return the item, not the value
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06:14<@Alberth>hi hi
06:14<Wolf01>hi hi
06:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26735 trunk/config.lib (2014-08-16 10:17:18 UTC)
06:17<@DorpsGek>-Fix (rmakefilerewrite): for profiling CFLAGS got a -p (for prof) and LDFLAGS got -pg (for gprof), but in the end gprof would be used (via make run-prof). Furthermore -pg isn't compatible with -fomit-frame-pointer on certain architectures (most importantly x86(_64)), so simply don't enable that flag when profiling is enabled
06:20<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26736 trunk/src/script/api/script_list.cpp (2014-08-16 10:20:15 UTC)
06:20<@DorpsGek>-Fix [Script]: infinite loop (by scripts; always returning the same item) when sorted by item in descending order by oddly constructed FindNext that uses forward iterators. Simply use the same code as the ascending item sort but use the reverse iterator instead of the forward. Also do this same trick for the descending value sort even though I couldn't trigger the problem there
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06:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26737 trunk/config.lib (2014-08-16 10:31:24 UTC)
06:31<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26735): one = too many... why can't all languages use the same basic definition for comparisons?
06:34<keoz>looks like Rubidium is in a great fixing mood
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>would it have been so hard to look up the revision of the makefile rewrite? :p
06:36<LordAro>harder than not doing it :p
06:37<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: if I were to say which revision you would have less of a clue when/what introduced it than this way
06:37<Rubidium>and it's so long ago that there's little doubt whether the release branch is affected
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>so we follow styles only when we feel like it? :p
06:39<frosch123>sure, we use [FS#Eddi] when people are too lazy to properly report
06:42<@peter1138>Those rules were probably only put in place to annoy Tron
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07:38<andythenorth>V453000: so did you make a Pipeline set? o_O
07:40<frosch123>i would be surprised :)
07:40<frosch123>V said multiple times that vehicles which do not show their cargo are bollocks
07:41<frosch123>pipelines are even worse
07:41<frosch123>only option would be that V lines would be nothing like pipelines
07:42<@planetmaker>obviously pipelines are glass tubes with slides for cargo in it ;)
07:42<@planetmaker>always perfectly polished glass tubes, of course
07:42<frosch123>there could be capsules in it
07:42<@planetmaker>(but I know of no such set)
07:42<@planetmaker>yeah, slides, capsules. That's what I mean
07:43<frosch123>like "letter shoot"
07:45<frosch123>or as in "the living daylights"
07:46<frosch123>(the james bond movie, where a person is smuggled from hungary to austria through a pipeline)
07:47<frosch123>i guess marble runs would also work instead of pipelines
07:48<frosch123>then we can make it a proper toyland feature
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07:51<andythenorth>proper marble run is all gravity
07:52<frosch123> <- passenger wagon
07:53<frosch123> <- also works as ship
07:53<frosch123>so, basically a hovercraft
07:54<frosch123>compatible to marble-rail and wet-rail
07:56<frosch123>how can i sell that to V for making?
07:56<frosch123>it certainly needs extra-extra-zoom to work out
07:57<frosch123>maybe i could tell him that it would also work for livestock transport, not only passengers
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08:03<Eddi|zuHause>i've only ever seen these on water
08:04<frosch123>the thin ones are likely only used on water, due to people falling
08:04<frosch123>but the thick ones probably work everywhere
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>i assume they have problems with pointy spikey things
08:05<frosch123>you mean the breakdown smoke does not fit? :p
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>also, the game does not actually support hovercraft...
08:12<__ln__>what about eels?
08:13<andythenorth>you can zorb on land
08:13<andythenorth>my friends have done it
08:15<__ln__>if there was a cargo type "eels" that could be transported with hovercraft, how should that be translated into hungarian
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08:22<andythenorth>we need hover-pipes
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>my hungarian is certainly way beyond "rusty" :p
08:32<frosch123>my neighbours are hungarian, i should ask them whether they know monty python
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i've ever seen the complete series
08:34<frosch123>ah, sun is shining again
08:34<frosch123>i should take these 5 minutes before it starts raining again :)
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08:51<__ln__>the relevant sketch for those who haven't seen it:
08:58<andythenorth>frosch123: anything I can do towards ship smoke? o_O
09:06<@peter1138>Draw it on the ship
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09:11<frosch123>hmm, yeah, i should finish that patch
09:12<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess reminding me every week could help :p
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11:48<andythenorth>frosch123: I am thinking about releasing Squid 0.1 - but it currently has half-broken smoke in it ;)
11:48<andythenorth>so either I remove, or wait…
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11:51<@planetmaker>disable temporarily and release
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11:53<andythenorth>seems best
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13:09<andythenorth>so I understand that action 14 is static, but could we provide additional info string per parameter value, and show/hide it conditionally on which value is selected?
13:10<andythenorth>i.e. additional to ‘names: {}’ we also have ‘extra_info: {}’
13:11<@Alberth>what extra info would you have that you don't need for selecting the option?
13:13<andythenorth>tells you what the option provides
13:13<andythenorth>the name is limiting
13:13<andythenorth>limited /s
13:14<@Alberth>you don't have text for the option as a whole?
13:14<frosch123>there is a big description box at the bottom
13:14<@Alberth>it would be a bit weird if I have to select an option to read what the option does, doesn't it?
13:15<andythenorth>describing every option in the description box would be quite…long
13:15<frosch123>yup, advancted settings also describe what their values do in one blob
13:15<andythenorth>not convinced this is a necessary change, just an idea
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13:15<frosch123>there is also a readme :)
13:15<andythenorth>for cases like FIRS economies...?
13:16<frosch123>you can put a short summary for every option into the description, and then refer to the readme
13:16<frosch123>how many options do you need to describe?
13:16<andythenorth>I guess 5-12
13:16<keoz>Or even a reference to some online doc ?
13:16<andythenorth>there is an online doc
13:17<andythenorth>ok, so it’s overkill
13:18<keoz>as a side note, online doc needs probably to be improved a little bit
13:21<keoz>well, a lot of things aren't explained anywere and the wiki page still documents the old behaviour
13:21<keoz>(pre-0.8 ?)
13:21<andythenorth>oh yeah
13:21<andythenorth>that page should just be deleted entirely
13:22<keoz>better improving it ?
13:22<keoz>I 'd be like to work on this.
13:22<andythenorth>right now it’s opinion written as fact
13:22<keoz>But I have the same problem as you: always working on to many projects :)
13:22<andythenorth>deleting is much easier
13:23<andythenorth>I am -1 to explaining too much
13:23<andythenorth>it’s only a newgrf
13:25<keoz>The "only" isn't necessary. It's a great NewGRF, with some specific mechanism, which, IMO, deserves explanations.
13:26<keoz>(thus avoiding what you call "failure demand") :)
13:27<andythenorth>did I delete the stuff about having to run small vehicles?
13:27<andythenorth>looks like someone did
13:28<keoz>Don't know. Didn't watch at it since years
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13:31<andythenorth>needed doing
13:41<@Alberth>add a version number as title, so it's clear it discusses an old version
13:42<@Alberth>or even in the page name :)
13:45<keoz>in the page, it's quite clearly stated that parts are outdated
13:45<keoz>I don't think people couldn't see it ... apart being really blind :)
13:46<@planetmaker>people generally are totally blind unless you shove it into their face
13:46<@planetmaker>and even then...
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26738 /trunk/src/lang (7 files) (2014-08-16 17:46:36 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 23 changes by juanjo
13:46<@DorpsGek>simplified_chinese - 50 changes by siu238X
13:46<@DorpsGek>traditional_chinese - 82 changes by siu238X
13:46<@DorpsGek>english_US - 49 changes by Supercheese
13:46<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 2 changes by cuthbert
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 47 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:46<@DorpsGek>slovak - 1 changes by Milsa
13:47<keoz>planetmaker: yes but for this kind of people, you can anyway consider that there is nothing to do. So, any effort would be useless in any case ;)
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14:03<andythenorth>MAKE IT BIGGER
14:03<andythenorth>ALL OF IT
14:03<andythenorth>usually works
14:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26739 /branches/1.4 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2014-08-16 18:30:47 UTC)
14:30<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Update documentation
14:32<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26740 /tags/1.4.2 (10 files in 4 dirs) (2014-08-16 18:32:17 UTC)
14:32<@DorpsGek>-Release: 1.4.2
14:33<frosch123>@calc 488/60
14:33<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 8.13333333333
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15:29<andythenorth>any chance of a Bananananas rename
15:30<andythenorth>FISH 2 => Squid Ate FISH!
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>i still don't get why you would do that
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>renaming existing brands creates "failure demand"
15:42<keoz>why not instead squid -> fish2 ? :p
15:43<@planetmaker>FISH: Squid ate fish 2
15:45<andythenorth>we should reverse-recurse that
15:46<andythenorth>good luck :)
15:46<andythenorth>also, Yay, A Release
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>recursive naming is boring, you should switch to fractal naming
15:49<andythenorth>“Is it possibly to run firs next to the old industries in openttd?"
15:51<@planetmaker>I guess... "No."
15:51<andythenorth>I guess no too
15:52<andythenorth>prizes for you and me
15:52<andythenorth>for being right
15:52<Eddi|zuHause> <-- this is a fractal
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15:54<frosch123> <- that too
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>(technically, it's a binary tree)
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but it's "boring" one. much better are fractals that differ ever slightly in each zoom step
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16:00<andythenorth>is it bed time yet?
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16:04<andythenorth>should I play a game?
16:06<@planetmaker>start one
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>random question: can i skip an action14 depending on game version?
16:07<andythenorth>I went to sleep at 1am drunk, and woke up at 6am
16:07*andythenorth might be sleepy
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16:07<@planetmaker>in that case, sleep well :)
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>like, a hidden debug parameter that only shows in nightlies?
16:08<@planetmaker>not sure whether action7/9 applies to action14. I bet rather not
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remebmer something about skipping action8
16:09<@planetmaker>but you might get that effect by proper pre-processing and evaluating the version or anther parameter passed to gcc
16:10<frosch123>action9 can skip action14
16:10<@Alberth>andythenorth: you know the forum all-but-first post are usable for a week, right?
16:11<frosch123>iirc that is even explicitly mentioned in the specs
16:11<andythenorth>Alberth: I had a feeling that reserving was silly
16:11<andythenorth>but couldn’t remember why
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>but i suppose nml cannot actually generate such code
16:12<andythenorth>nml certainly hates you if you try more than one action 8
16:12<andythenorth>but that wasn’t your question
16:13<andythenorth>Alberth: deleted them, thanks :)
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16:23<frosch123>someone knows whether std::map::reverse_iterator is actually only a wrapper around std::map::iterator returning the previous element
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16:24<frosch123>that would imply that a reverse_iterator is invalidated when the element behind it is deleted
16:25<frosch123>unlike the forward iterator, which is only invalidated when the element it is pointing to is invalidated
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16:31<frosch123>indeed, looks like all stl containers use std::reverse_iterator<iterator>
16:32<frosch123>funny, how all specs mention that map, list and co invalidate only iterators pointing to the deleted element
16:32<frosch123>while reverse_iterators do not work at all with deletion :p
16:34<@Alberth>stroustrup says that reverse iterators are one further than the element they return on * section 19.2.5
16:37<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26741 trunk/src/script/api/script_list.cpp (2014-08-16 20:37:33 UTC)
16:37<@DorpsGek>-Revert (r26736): reverse_iterators are invalidated when the element next to them is erased (not the element they are pointing to), which makes them unsuitable for ScriptList.
16:40<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26742 trunk/src/script/api/script_list.cpp (2014-08-16 20:40:26 UTC)
16:40<@DorpsGek>-Doc: Why reverse_iterator is unsuitable for ScriptList iterators
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16:53<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.4.2
16:53-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.4.2 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
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16:59<frosch123>certainly learnt something today :)
17:00<frosch123>never use reverse_iterators when modifying a container
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i'm understanding this wrong, but wouldn't this be solved by iterating ahead one step before deleting?
17:02<frosch123>for that you would actually have to know where your iterator is pointing
17:02<frosch123>also the issue is not only with deletign
17:03<frosch123>after inserting a new item, a reverse_iterator may suddenly point to a different element :p
17:04<frosch123>the specs say clearly that std::vector trashes all iterators on modification. it also says that map, list etc. only invalidate iterators when the element pointed to is deleted
17:04<frosch123>but there is not a single hint about reverse_iterator :p
17:05<frosch123>and while in most algorithms you pretty much know what happens to the elements your iterators point to, you usually do not know what happens around them
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>iterating about the thing you are modifying is bad anyway. if at all, you should iterate over a copy
17:06<frosch123>haha, continue dreaming :p
17:06<frosch123>modifying stuff while iterating is completely standard
17:06<frosch123>you only need to know what the iterators do, and esp. honor the return value of vector::erase
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>sure, but i claim that most people that use iterators don't actually know the "fine print"
17:11<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26743 trunk/src/script/api/script_list.cpp (2014-08-16 21:11:26 UTC)
17:11<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Simplify ScriptList iterators.
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17:14<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26744 trunk/src/script/api/script_list.cpp (2014-08-16 21:13:58 UTC)
17:14<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS6085-ish]: ScriptListSorterItemDescending::FindNext failed to detect the end.
17:14<frosch123>someone ate a #
17:19<@planetmaker>probably a squid.
17:19<@planetmaker>it already ate fish, too
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>and i thought you smoke #. shows how little i know...
17:23<@planetmaker>the nearest I got to that was in form of cookies ;)
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17:28<@planetmaker>indeed. even so much that it's bed time. Thus good night :)
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>bad time?
17:33<NGC3982>I'm selling my SAAB today.
17:33<NGC3982>It will be a great mourning.
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>you own an airplane? :p
17:34<NGC3982>Well, it does seem to share many attributes of one.
17:34<NGC3982>The weight, width and fuel consumption, for one.
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, what do you expect by something made by a company called "swedish airplane manufacturer"
17:36<NGC3982>I hope the displays on the real aircraft holds up better than the one in my car.
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18:48<Wolf01>nighty night
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---Logclosed Sun Aug 17 00:00:45 2014