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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-08-20

---Logopened Wed Aug 20 00:00:53 2014
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03:53<Eddi|zuHause> 5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 002 002 036 Pre-fail Always FAILING_NOW 4045
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04:27<Nemoder>Is there any possibility of openttd being packaged for steam? All I can find searching is very old threads about issues with the GPL but the are at least a couple GPL games on steam already
04:28<Nemoder>not something the community wants or some other reason?
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>even if GPL was possible, it'd be too much hassle, expecially with issuing updates
04:31<Nemoder>heh I always felt that was the case with linux distributions packaging it
04:31<Pikkaphone>although since it is gpl, you could always fork openttd for steam yourself. :) If indeed a gpl project can meet valve's requirements
04:31*Pikkaphone blames peter1138
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>Nemoder: the difference is that the linux distributions pull this stuff themselves, the developers don't have to push it
04:33<@peter1138>More importantly, can Valve meet the GPL's requirements.
04:33<Nemoder>I was looking at Steel Storm (q2 engine) and Evolution RTS (SprintRTS) but perhaps they are in gray water themselves
04:33*peter1138 blames Pikkaphone
04:35<Pikkaphone>I'm not sure what openttd would gain from being on steam
04:35<Nemoder>just publicity from friends seeing what their friends are playing i suppose
04:35<@peter1138>OpenTTD has steam in it :D
04:35<@planetmaker>oh, it might gain some more downloads and exposure to gamers
04:36<@peter1138>You can do that by setting up a launcher shortcut in steam :p
04:36<@planetmaker>but the biggest step is that *someone* always has to take care to upload releases also to steam and actually maintain that
04:36<@planetmaker>in principle I do believe it would be a good thing. Practically it's tedious
04:36<V453000>does steam allow open source licensing?
04:36<Nemoder>that makes sense
04:37<Nemoder>I didn't used to think so until I started seeing GPL games appear
04:37<V453000>aha :)
04:37<@peter1138>V453000, I don't think it cares, however I don't think it has a way to make the source available, or otherwise meet GPL requirements.
04:37<@planetmaker>I think they don't care much about the license
04:37<@peter1138>Pretty much like the Apple app store situation.
04:38<V453000>well if they can link to openttd source, they still have to host the source themselves?
04:38<Pikkaphone> planetmaker: expect a hundred requests for steam-based multiplayer matchmaking, too
04:38<V453000>lol matchmaking
04:38<@peter1138>Also apparently there's a fee to be on steam.
04:39<@peter1138>Yeah, steam api is never going to happen with open source.
04:39<Pikkaphone>tree fiddy
04:40<@peter1138>Preparing to replace openttd 1.4.2~RC1-0 (using openttd-1.4.2-linux-debian-wheezy-amd64.deb) ...
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: they have to host the source themselves, linking does not suffice for GPL
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>(in a strict sense)
04:40<Nemoder>I dont think you have to host it, just provide it when requested
04:41<Eddi|zuHause>Nemoder: no, that only applies when you ship physical disks with a written permit
04:41<Eddi|zuHause>Nemoder: if you offer download, you must offer the source as equivalent download
04:41<Eddi|zuHause>Nemoder: since you cannot make a written offer with a download
04:41<@peter1138>god fucking damn that start up game is fucking noisy
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: replace it with the nightly title game :p
04:42<@planetmaker>yeah... 1.4.x has a *very busy* starting screen
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the next voting round needs to come with the sounds for the first few seconds after startup :)
04:42*Pikkaphone blames peter1138
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>with fancy html5 tags and stuff :)
04:44<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, so still nobody will hear it :p
04:44<@planetmaker>sure Eddi|zuHause :) (I'm awaiting your web template for that :P )
04:44<Nemoder>heh, trying to configure all the mod options in the gui while listening to that mess was painful
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: can't be that difficult :=)
04:45<Pikkaphone>perhaps we just need a "mute sounds in menu game" advanced option. Or whatever advanced options are called these days.
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>Nemoder: most modern keyboards come with a "mute" button :)
04:45<Nemoder>I didn't want to mute my voice app or music player
04:46<@planetmaker>Pikkaphone, even when they contain (nearly) all settings, they're still advanced ;) :P
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>in really fancy environments (*cough* pulseaudio *cough*) you can mute individual apps
04:46<@peter1138>Or Windows.
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't seriously used modern windows in ages
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>at least not with anything involving sounds and stuff
04:48<@peter1138>Although on Linux I remapped my mute + volume buttons to be play/pause and prev/next track buttons.
04:48<@peter1138>Cos they were more useful :S
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>i have those buttons on my keyboard as well
04:48<@peter1138>Yeah. Mine doesn't.
04:49<@peter1138>Still not bothered to remap the calculator button, heh.
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>but it's totally weird, on my previous keyboard they were in the opposite place. so now i constantly hit start/stop when i want volume down and stuff...
04:49<@peter1138> < no frills
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>and currently i can't hear music, because it's on the failing disk and causes too many wa cycles to produce a continous stream :(
04:51<@peter1138>That's a problem with massive drives... so much stuff to backup or move around.
04:51<Eddi|zuHause>it's even the smallest drive i have...
04:51<Eddi|zuHause>and also the newest
04:52<@peter1138>Hmm, my smallest is the SSD.
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>fucking seagate...
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, except for the SSD
04:52<@peter1138>... which is still several times larger than some of the server drives in use at jbex.
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>my SSD is 128GB, this drive is 250GB
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>but at the rate it's copying right now it'll barely be done when my just ordered disks arrive in 2 days :p
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>80% wa... i'm surprised the system is even reacting to my input :p
05:04<V453000>mechanical keyboards ftw
05:04<__ln__>so.... how will the independent Scotland be implemented in OTTD?
05:05<Eddi|zuHause>did they make the referendum yet?
05:05<@planetmaker>__ln__, just like the Euro... introducing a new currency in 2015
05:06<@planetmaker>and probably adding yet-another English translation :D
05:07<@peter1138>V453000, indeed.
05:08<Pikkaphone> planetmaker : so why is there no auto changeover from pounds to dollars in 1966 for the Australians? Feeture request!
05:08<V453000>OMFG MUST HAZ
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>the game also misses half a dozen german currencies :p
05:09<V453000>paying with beer was never official Eddi
05:10<@planetmaker>Pikkaphone, good question :)
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>no, but especially the east germans struggled a long time with how to actually name their currency
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>they started with DM, then it was MDN, and then they ended up with just M
05:11<V453000>while it should have been B all the time
05:11<@planetmaker>B wie Blechmark? Yeah :P
05:11<Eddi|zuHause>i know Biermarken
05:11<V453000>actually I dont know why do we use czk instead of beer, everybody buys beer for it anyway
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>i had a Biermarke just a few weeks ago
05:12<V453000>at least it would make decisions like "pay rent or have 100 beers" easier
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: drinkable currency makes for one epic deflation :p
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: but think of the consequences. making beer currency would mean all breweries except for a handful of state certified ones become illegal
05:14<Pikkaphone>that's why you use bottlecaps
05:15<Pikkaphone>drinking makes you richer
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>Pikkaphone: you can get money for empty bottles :)
05:16<Pikkaphone>not in the NCR
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>in germany it's currently 8¢ or 15¢ for glass bottles, and 25¢ for plastic bottles and cans
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's kinda bizarre, you get more for returning throwaway bottles than reusable bottles
05:18<Pikkaphone>because they want to discourage throwing them away
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>well the official reason was to reduce the number of produced throwaway bottles
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>which i don't know whether they succeeded, but beer cans almost completely disappeared
05:19<Pikkaphone>on the other hand
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>on the flip side they created all this overhead for collecting the empty bottles/cans
05:20<Pikkaphone>glass bottles are heavy, so they're environmentally unfriendly due to
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>because now the shops are responsible for that instead of the garbage collectors
05:20<Pikkaphone>transport costs etc
05:21<Pikkaphone>we should all just drink tap water
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>nobody drinks tap water in germany
05:30<@planetmaker>lot of people do
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>copying 150k files at 2 files per minute, how long will that last? :p
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05:38<Pikkaphone>75k minutes
05:39<Pikkaphone>1.25k hours
05:40<Pikkaphone>seven and a half weeks
05:41<Pikkaphone>cheap at half the price
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>oh it jumped from 135 to 402
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>so, california gets rain about every 5 years?
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06:40<DerLoetkolben>Addition to yesterday: it works like a charm with the latest trunk
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07:49<Eddi|zuHause>Jeb Bush?
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08:13<Eddi|zuHause>@base 10 16 85900656661
08:13<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1400140015
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08:37<Eddi|zuHause>@base 10 16 253965711205637
08:37<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: E6FB00006505
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>@base 16 10 E6FB
08:38<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 59131
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>@base 16 10 6505
08:38<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 25861
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, so apparently i do have an installation of TTO, with files dated 20.10.1994
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>and savegames dated 1999/2000/2001
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08:55<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [misc] German Townnames are buggy (-1317974696) <-- someone should possibly reimplement the original town name generator :p
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>oh yeah, that was the savegame where i made a one-way network without one-way signals :p
08:58<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, which german townname set is that?
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08:58<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: this is a TTO savegame
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>openttd has always issued this warning also for TTD savegames, because the town name generators do not match
09:10<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: TTO style
09:19<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, you know how it goes with patches :P
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>yes. i don't finish them.
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09:52<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i have a bunch of midi files, and some of them fail to set instruments correctly... but i do remember them playing properly in the (distant) past
10:26<ATS63>without alt clt c, is it possible to starve/kill off an industry? Building in the way of my railway yo
10:28<Pinkbeast>ATS63: Not at all reliably. Tunnel under it? :-/
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>ATS63: unserved industries may close after some years, but a newgrf may prevent this
10:35<ATS63>Yea, unservicing doesn't seem to always work. Yet not delivering cargo often enough does. Weird
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>there is a protected period of like 5 years and after that it is random
10:43<ATS63>o right. That makes sense
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>at least in TTO, unstable economy actually meant it closes serviced industries
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>in OpenTTD it doesn't do that
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11:58<Sheogorath>is it posible to integrate IRC to openTTD?
11:59<Sheogorath>We started our IRC network and now starting an OpenTTD server
11:59<@planetmaker>yes. OpenTTD features an admin port
11:59<@planetmaker>you can use that to create a 2-way bridge
11:59<Sheogorath>I've seen that there is ab bot
11:59<@planetmaker>One implementation for that is soap, a plug-in for supybot
12:01<@planetmaker> and
12:01<Sheogorath>AH thanks
12:01<Sheogorath>that I ws searching for :)
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12:09<Sheogorath>Is it possible to link ingamechat and channel, too?
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>there should be chat message forwarding in there somewhere
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12:13<@planetmaker>Sheogorath, yes, it (can) link(s) both ways
12:14<@planetmaker>you can watch that in action at the #openttdcoop servers or at the #/r/openttd reddit servers
12:14<Sheogorath>ah okay
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12:48<DerLoetkolben>It seems like Xorg is using most of the CPU when playing OpenTTD, does anybody have an idea why ?
12:50<@Alberth>lots of moving pictures?
12:50<@Alberth>or perhaps not enough trains and boats in the game :p
12:50<Rubidium>maybe because Xorg is emulating thing
12:52<Rubidium>for example, older graphics cards have support for certain things like animation via changing the palette, but newer ones do not have that anymore in the hardware. As a result the very old software implementation that was implemented because very very old cheap graphics card did not have that feature are now again used because your new graphics card does not have the feature either
12:53<Rubidium>since OpenTTD based on there mid 1990s technology, it is not easy/trivial/efficient to straight migrate it to newer methods
12:53<Rubidium>mostly because we would need new graphics and as a result lose all backward compatibility with graphics, NewGRFs and the likes
12:56<frosch123>DerLoetkolben: try a nightly version, and see whether it makes a difference
12:57<DerLoetkolben>i'm playing right off the SVN tree
12:57<Rubidium>what video driver is used?
12:57<Rubidium>might it be allegro?
12:58<DerLoetkolben>xf86-video-radeon directly from GIT
12:58<DerLoetkolben>allegro isn't installed
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13:07<@Alberth>openttd video driver was intended, most likely
13:07<DerLoetkolben>Alberth: Sorry it's SDL
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13:11<frosch123>try the "support8bpp" setting in openttd.cfg then
13:12<frosch123>it should default to "none", but you can also try "system" and "hardware"
13:15<DerLoetkolben>frosch123: Both didn't change a thing
13:15<frosch123>then you can also try command line option "-b 8bpp-optimized"
13:15<@Alberth>you modified and saved without openttd running right? ending openttd overwrites the cfg file
13:18<DerLoetkolben>frosch123 : openttd cannot find the 8bpp-optimized blitter
13:20<frosch123>really, how is that possible, openttd --help should list it
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13:20<DerLoetkolben>--help still lists it
13:21<frosch123>well, if you did not make a simple typo, i have no idea
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13:21<DerLoetkolben>triple checked on the spelling
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26752 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2014-08-20 17:45:28 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
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14:27<andythenorth>did anyone figure out how liveries should be done in newgrf?
14:27<andythenorth>all in the buy menu?
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14:34<@Alberth>find a random newgrf with liveries?
14:34<andythenorth>I wondered if there was an accepted answer
14:35<andythenorth>I have my own: don’t bother
14:35<andythenorth>it’s for this, which is comprehensive
14:35*Alberth likes the automagic solution by nuts
14:35<andythenorth>so needs a way to provide all the liveries
14:37<@Alberth>vehicle set design is not the same as "draw every real bus/train/ship you can find", in my view
14:38<@Alberth>you probably share that opinion :)
14:38<@planetmaker>an extremely common fallacy
14:38<Rubidium>Alberth: it could be, but then only allow *one* bus of that drawn instance
14:39<@Alberth>nah, the exact same number as driving around in city/country X :p
14:39<Rubidium>needs higher dpi images though, otherwise you can't read the license plate
14:40<@Alberth>I really wonder about the "trains in nml" thread what they are going to do with the zillion vehicle sprites :)
14:40<@Alberth>on the other hand, it would be quite easy to make a "steam forever" newgrf
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14:44<andythenorth>I guess there’s nothing wrong with making an enthusiast’s set
14:44<andythenorth>it’s not something I’d do
14:44<andythenorth>but the game is open
14:45<V453000>with good functionality it could be great
14:45<V453000>just imagine nuts with all engines being steam
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14:51<@Alberth>V453000: The idea is to make a newgrf for a single railtype for the entire game, ie you have 3-4 newgrfs. With parameters you set when a railtype becomes available and when it disappears. You can customize your game that way
14:52<V453000>whose idea :D
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14:56<@Alberth>I invented it. So far I haven't seen anyone else mentioning the same idea although I didn't really look for it. Minor issue is that I can't draw :p
14:57<andythenorth>loads of GPL sets out there....
15:00<V453000>go make 3D models :)
15:00<V453000>the idea isnt bad though :)
15:01<V453000>I was kind of considering it to make NUTS classes parameter-controllable too, but if it just works, it is just fine :P
15:03<@Alberth>the unlucky 13 engine is always breaking the steam era in my games
15:05<V453000>mhm :)
15:05<V453000>use meow -> solved? :)
15:07<@Alberth>that works indeed, but it's a bit later iirc
15:08<@Alberth>in my last game I switched to the fast double headed engines
15:08<@Alberth>I had a lot of distance to cover :)
15:08<@Alberth>and lots of cargo due to the gang-ho mode of firs :p
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15:10<@Alberth>(if you are interested)
15:34<ATS63>Well thats a little better... my big station is now 15 platforms, 175 trains, on maglev 3
15:34<ATS63>3 different inbound/outbound tracks
15:34<ATS63>Most the mines that feed it are "ultimate" production level
15:39<ATS63>Wonder what'll happen when I upgrade to vac tube
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16:30<NGC3982>Does autoclean_novehicles work even if autoclean_companies is set to false?
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16:30<NGC3982>I want to autoclean companies without vehicles, and not for any other reason.
16:40<frosch123>you need to enable both
16:41<frosch123>autoclean_companies always must be enabled
16:42<frosch123>then you can enable/disable autoclean_novehicles, autoclean_unprotected and autoclean_protected
16:46<NGC3982>Oh. How do i disable unprotected/protected? Does the config support "false" instead of the default number?
16:46<frosch123>0 is disabled
16:46<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
16:46<NGC3982>Thank you.
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22:22<Supercheese>Huh, my post seems to have disappeared... oh well I was going to edit/delete it anyway
22:22<Supercheese>although hmm, it may have been too old
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23:10<Eddi|zuHause>that means either you didn't post it in the first place, or you're looking in the wrong forum, or some moderator removed it.
23:13<Eddi|zuHause>i have too many wine prefixes...
23:36<Supercheese>Well, in any event, I am not sad to see the post gone
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 21 00:00:55 2014