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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-08-22

---Logopened Fri Aug 22 00:00:58 2014
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05:16<Eddi|zuHause>hm weird. i set up a raid in bios, but it won't show up in linux
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>also, the bios seems to have a 2TB bug
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>also, i tried to flash the bios, but it says "bios id error", indicating i downloaded the wrong model... but i triple checked...
05:19<@peter1138>so it's just a software raid then
05:19<@peter1138>use md raid
05:19<V453000>why woyuld you setup a raid boss
05:20<@planetmaker>for the drops, obviously
05:20<TinoDidriksen>Hardware RAID is dangerous. Unless you have several of the exact same card laying around for when it fries, just use software RAID.
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>internet says it's better when you want to access it from windows
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>TinoDidriksen: it's not an actual hardware raid
05:21<@peter1138>then you just answered your own question :p
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that was not the question...
05:21<@peter1138>well it wasn't even a question
05:22<@peter1138>linux mostly does not bother supporting fakeraid
05:22<V453000>probably some high lvl pwnzor raid
05:22<@peter1138>TinoDidriksen, raid1 should, in theory, be relatively safe. but you never know.
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>well i found but that is incomprehensive...
05:23<TinoDidriksen>peter1138, it's not, because the metadata is in the card version's own special format. Been there, tried that, cursed a lot, went software.
05:25<@peter1138>if the card is sensible it will place the metadata at the end of the disk, but that's probably too much to ask
05:25<@peter1138>but still the data should be intact even if you can't directly boot it or whatever
05:25<@peter1138>which is sometimes easier than restoring from backup
05:26*peter1138 has some hw raid6 cards lying around...
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>what does raid6 do anyway?
05:27<@peter1138>makes it all more complex
05:28<@peter1138>and in theory gives you more redundancy than raid5
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05:30<__ln__>why only in theory?
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05:35<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: tried ZFS?
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth|Work: for what?
05:35<Xaroth|Work>instead of hardware raid
05:35<Xaroth|Work>because it's.. somewhat better than hardware raid
05:36<Xaroth|Work>and doesn't have some of the pitfalls that hardware raid has
05:36-!-luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
05:37<Xaroth|Work>(like having to use dodgy raid cards with their own dodgy format of storing metadata that isn't compatible with other brand dodgy cards)
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05:54<Eddi|zuHause> so now things are different kind of weird... i made a software raid, and it's now saying "activating md even if degraded" or something
06:00<@peter1138>Xaroth|Work, zfs supports different raid levels by itself?
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>"You can safely ignore the message"
06:02<Xaroth|Work>peter1138: in what way do you mean exactly?
06:02<@peter1138>built in to zfs
06:02<@peter1138>rather than say, using mdraid like normal people do
06:02<Xaroth|Work>it does 1, 0, 5(z), 6(z2)
06:02<@peter1138>sounds terrible
06:03<@peter1138>also oracle
06:03<Xaroth|Work>it's not just a raid-like system, it's also a volume manager
06:04<@peter1138>i prefer my file systems to be file systems, my volume managers to be volume managers, and my software raid to be software raid.
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>which brings us back to the question... why?
06:04<@peter1138>why what?
06:04<Xaroth|Work>peter1138: if you have 3 split systems, one is not fully aware of the other
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>use zfs
06:05<@peter1138>i don't think i've ever needed them to be
06:05<Xaroth|Work>so when your raid array has silent corruption, and figures it out
06:05<Xaroth|Work>how does the rest know what has suffered bitrot?
06:06<@peter1138>if zfs is handling volumes and raid, then where do you put swap? on a file? heh
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06:08<Eddi|zuHause>i finally need to install grub on my ssd... that never worked...
06:09<@peter1138>never had any problem with that, though i'm on a bios system
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: whenever i tried to put grub on a new disk, it made things ever worse...
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>like using the wrong drive order
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>or getting into an endless restart loop
06:10<@peter1138>zfs sounds horrible, i'm glad i don't use it
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>and let's not speak of grub2 :/
06:10<Xaroth|Work>so you see 2 things on something, and you call it horrible? that's a well educated oppinion right there
06:12<Xaroth|Work>I'd advise to go read the features of it:
06:13<@peter1138>i see the bit about it not being in linux
06:13<@peter1138>if it's not in debian i don't give a shit :)
06:13<Xaroth|Work>seriously, do you even google?
06:13<^Spike^>ieuw.... zfs.....
06:13<@peter1138>packages FOR debian is not IN debian
06:14<^Spike^>sorry bad experiences... :)
06:14<@peter1138>plus oracle
06:14<^Spike^>better say way too much bad experiences :)
06:14<@peter1138>will not touch with a giant bargepole
06:15<Xaroth|Work>^Spike^: what kind of issues?
06:15<Xaroth|Work>i've been fiddling around with it for a while and everything's been running just fine
06:15<^Spike^>stuff with large disk sets
06:15<^Spike^>stuff with raid controllers
06:15<Xaroth|Work>raid controllers for a software raid system?
06:15<^Spike^>stuff with it being f***** slow on freebsd with lots of snapshots
06:15<^Spike^>stuff with it killing a production server bi-weekly atm
06:16<Xaroth|Work>lots of snapshots being how many?
06:16<^Spike^>in the end... zfs is A file system and not THE filesystem
06:17<^Spike^>400+ subvolumes with each i think 8-10 snapshots
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>so, why does the software raid consume like 20% cpu and constant disk accesses, even though nothing is actually accessing the disk?
06:17<^Spike^>because software raid.....
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>but... what is it doing?
06:18<^Spike^>if i knew... ottdc server would be optimized already :)
06:18<^Spike^>lots of disk actions from sw raid
06:18<^Spike^>reason: unknown
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>also, why does google open in a noscript-y browser consume so much cpu?
06:18<^Spike^>cause we don't constantly try to fill disk/clean disk... :)
06:19<^Spike^>because... google!?
06:19<Xaroth|Work>^Spike^: so you cram it full of crap (400+ subvols), and then you claim it's full of crap? yeh, I see how that's ZFS' issue :P
06:20<^Spike^>it's said it could handle it... :)
06:20<^Spike^>it's called user separation when you offer a service... ;)
06:20<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, probably synchronizing, maybe.
06:20<^Spike^>and quota management :)
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06:20<^Spike^>we are switching over to get rid of the crappy sub volume stuff.... cause software understands quotas in ldap now...
06:20<Xaroth|Work>^Spike^: ever seen what happens if you create 200+ ext4 volumes to a system? I'm somewhat amazed that it actually has some performance with 400 :P
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06:21<^Spike^>ehm... considering the storage backend @ work.... + proper lvm....
06:21<^Spike^>i think it would come quite far :)
06:24<^Spike^>although lvm overhead could be killing it in one way... but with a proper hw raid controller it should work quite well
06:24<Xaroth|Work>^Spike^: side question; how much ram and what features were enabled?
06:25<^Spike^>almost no features as far as i remember and about 16G ram
06:25<^Spike^>and about 100T storage space
06:25<Xaroth|Work>16g on 100t? that's a bit low tbh
06:26<Xaroth|Work>should work, but if your arc isn't tuned then it might cause issues
06:26<^Spike^>i already noticed zfs does too much in ram when we were calculating deduplication vs ram needed
06:26<Xaroth|Work>yeh, but that's just how (and why) ZFS works
06:26<Xaroth|Work>RAM ALL the things :P
06:26<^Spike^>it was better to buy a new EMC with more features... then buy an enterprise server for that price....
06:27<Xaroth|Work>that somewhat depends on what kind of hardware you're running it on
06:27<Xaroth|Work>i mean, 100T on big disks, add a few SSDs for L2arc and a ZIL and you'll still be at half the cost of an enterprise storage device
06:28<Xaroth|Work>because they all want the 'enterprise' 15k sas drives
06:29<^Spike^>hmmm will keep that in mind... :)
06:29<^Spike^>doesn't mean we might still change things... but we are working with the current platform... and still don't like zfs :)
06:29<Xaroth|Work>and I don't like paying 600 euro for 1TB of space, if I can get 12TB of space AND a SSD for L2arc/zil at the same price :P
06:31<^Spike^>as said it's a filesystem and not the filesystem :)
06:32<Xaroth|Work>that is true
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06:45<SpComb>ZFS has a lot to offer in terms of management for large disk systems
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>hm, there see,s to be a process called "ext4lazyinit" running that consumes i/o
06:45<SpComb>like I'm not really sure I'd want to mdraid/lvm/ext4/rsync some box with two dsik shelves and 127 disks
06:46<SpComb>whereas with ZFS it's not really any more difficult than a box with 2 disks
06:46<SpComb>it's not like LVM is perfect either..
06:47<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: are you going to be dual-booting between windows and linux and want the same raid on both?
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: when i now formatted it ext4, probably not...
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes i really wished windows could just read all the linux file systems :/
06:49<SpComb>I think I've mostly given up on dual-booting these days
06:49<SpComb>laptop is just Ubuntu, with Windows in a VM inside
06:49<SpComb>desktop is still dual-boot but I haven't booted it into Ubuntu for a while
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>i've tried windows VM
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>but kvm/qemu somehow uses 30% cpu when idle
06:50<SpComb>kvm/qemu graphics imo kinda sucks, VirtualBox seems to just work better for desktop stuff
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>how long is this ext4lazyinit going to run?
06:50<SpComb>but yeah, the Windows 8.1 inside likes to peg the cpu once in a while
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>i only have XP to play with
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>most stuff i do in wine, but some things just don't work
06:51<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: never encountered ext4lazyinit before
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07:02<@peter1138>Hmm, I don't think it should be sticking around, unless it's waiting for something else to finish, maybe.
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: apparently it's some process that zeros stuff that was left out from formatting
07:03<^Spike^>Xaroth|Work: what helps in the end (special in the environment i work in) with EMC for example if it breaks they come by to fix it... if shit hits the fan really hard... they come to help out :)
07:03<^Spike^>with zfs if it breaks... you're on your own basicly (and a community perhaps) as far as i've seen
07:04<^Spike^>and telling that to customer when you got 2k VMs offline... doesn't go to well i can tell you :)
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>man, mount.ntfs is some inefficient shit...
07:06<SpComb>^Spike^: that's normal... if you have the money, you should concentrate on the actual product and not the infrastructure around it... outsource that part
07:06<^Spike^>true :)
07:07<^Spike^>it also depends on what you use it for in the end
07:07<^Spike^>in this case running clusters of VMs
07:07<^Spike^>for something easier/simpler it might be enough to kick 3 boxes into a DC put for example gluster on it and hf
07:08<Xaroth_>^Spike^: there's always Nexenta
07:08<Xaroth_>they are some of the core contributors for the BSD branches
07:08<Xaroth_>and they procide extra crap like replication
07:08<Xaroth_>which isn't in 'normal' zfs
07:08<^Spike^>trying to think.. cause i recognize the name.... but i think we kicked that out aswell
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07:10<^Spike^>yup deleted device...
07:22<SpComb>oh, so someone does actually do zfs live replication?
07:23<SpComb>my stack is ganeti, so something like lvm/ext4/drbd/rsync... it would be nice if ZFS really did all of that... and then someone implemented support for it in ganeti :)
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07:53<Xaroth|Work>SpComb: Nexenta apparently does it
07:53<Xaroth|Work>but that's their enterprise edition
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08:19<kostiak>anyone around here?
08:22*planetmaker doesn't see anyone
08:22<kostiak>I'm having a bit of a problem
08:22<kostiak>I'm reading that trains are supposed to be availble as early as 1925 in temperate
08:23<kostiak>yet in 1940 the railway constuction option is still greyed out
08:23<@planetmaker>that depends on climate. And if you play with NewGRFs
08:24<kostiak>temperate, no newgrfs
08:24<kostiak>kirby engine is supposed to be available since 1925
08:24<kostiak>yet in 1940 no railway constuction option
08:25<@planetmaker>got a savegame for me?
08:25<kostiak>sure, sec
08:25<kostiak>where should i upload it?
08:25<@planetmaker>wherever. Dropbox maybe?
08:26<kostiak>there you go:
08:27<@planetmaker>that's arctic climate
08:28<@planetmaker>earliest train: 1945
08:28<kostiak>well I'm stupid (as always)
08:28<kostiak>i was 100% sure i picked temperate
08:29<kostiak>thanks anyways mate
08:29<@planetmaker>you're welcome
08:30<@planetmaker>btw, you see the climate even before you load the save. The saveload dialogue tells you the climate, date and some other stuff about the save
08:30<@planetmaker>and you see it from the colour of the grass when you loaded it. But that, of course, needs some knowledge how stuff looks like :)
08:31<kostiak>tbh, haven't played in like a year
08:31<kostiak>and forgot all this stuff :)
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09:32<@planetmaker>why do you sell it, __ln__ ? :D
09:33<SpComb>__ln__: you just need to pay a 50000€ deposit into an unnamed nigerian bank account to clear legal issues before your payment can be processed?
09:45<^Spike^>they usually also offer to send pictures of their wife for some reason with those mails...
09:45<^Spike^>and tell how you could really help her out
09:45<V453000>what I want pictures of their wife
09:47<^Spike^>.... i shall forward one of the mails when i have stand-by next time and need to keep an eye on the abuse mailbox :)
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10:20<Eddi|zuHause>ext4lazyinit still running :/
10:27<^Spike^>kill it all.......... ;)
10:27<^Spike^>it's just a friday afternoon.. ;)
10:27<^Spike^>nobody will notice :D
10:28<^Spike^>hmmm lazy init should be gradual without impact... technically...
10:29<^Spike^>lazy zeroing should do that normally atleast
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10:48<DanMacK>Hey All
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11:23<Eddi|zuHause>@calc .6*.2
11:23<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.12
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>@calc .6*.8
11:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.48
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>@calc .6*.8*.75
11:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.36
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>@calc .6*.8*.7
11:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.336
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>@calc .6*.8*.69
11:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.3312
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>@calc .6*.8*.68
11:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.3264
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>@calc .6*.76*.75
11:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.342
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>@calc .6*.76*.70
11:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.3192
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>@calc .6*.76*.73
11:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.33288
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>@calc .6*.76*.72
11:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.32832
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11:33<keoz>toying out Eddi|zuHause ? :)
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12:04<SpComb>such spam
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13:12<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26753 /trunk/src (saveload/station_sl.cpp station_base.h) (2014-08-22 17:11:59 UTC)
13:12<@DorpsGek>-Fix: desync due to not always properly restoring game state from the savegame
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13:15-!-planetmaker is "Ingo von Borstel" on @#openttd #/r/openttd #freerct @+#openttdcoop.nightly #openttdcoop.bots #debian #openttdcoop.devzone @+#openttdcoop.stable @+#openttdcoop #oftc #moocows +#openDune
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13:36<frosch123>LSky`: your desync log files were useful :)
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13:39<Wolf01>hi hi
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26754 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2014-08-22 17:45:28 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 9 changes by juanjo
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14:37<andythenorth>Alberth: any ideas how to run a python 3 nml in a python 2 compile?
14:38<andythenorth>I’ve been relying on the coincidental fact that my scripts and nml both work with 2.6/2.7
14:38<@Alberth>if you run it as a separate process, how is it a problem?
14:38<andythenorth>how will I teach nml to use python 3?
14:39<andythenorth>I don’t want to modify the shebangs, that’s not good
14:39<@Alberth>#! /usr/bin/env python3 <-- by the first line in nmlc
14:39<@Alberth>python3 nmlc .....
14:40<@Alberth>but current nml2 has the above #!
14:40<andythenorth>that’s interesting
14:40*andythenorth tries something again
14:41*Alberth bets it give the same result
14:41<andythenorth>so either I change the shebang or alias python 3
14:41<andythenorth>I’d misunderstood an error
14:42<@Alberth>I lost you, but that's probably fine :)
14:43<@Alberth>I tried to update the fish translation yesterday, and got stuck on the roster thingie iirc
14:43<andythenorth>my python isn’t in /usr/bin/env so I need to alias from there
14:44<@Alberth>/usr/bin/env is a program
14:45<andythenorth>so it is :o
14:45<@Alberth>as parameter you give it the program you look for, and it returns the path to it, iirc
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14:46<andythenorth>I see
14:46<andythenorth>so it knows about python3.3 but not python 3
14:46<@Alberth>silly mac? :)
14:46<andythenorth>so I was going to symlink (alias) python3.3 to python 3
14:48<@Alberth> <-- this is what you mean with "roster" in fish?
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>wouldn't the package installer do that automatically?
14:48<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: you expect sane package installers at a mac box?
14:49<andythenorth>we don’t use the package installers for python
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>hope dies last.
14:49<andythenorth>they’re all fucked for OS X
14:49<andythenorth>we use python buildout, it’s reliable
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>> dir $(which python3)
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 6. Aug 23:39 /usr/bin/python3 -> python3.3
14:50<@Alberth>I'd do that in ~/bin
14:51<andythenorth>make test should pass with nml tip and python3.3?
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes, if you do things manually, do them either in
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>~/bin or /usr/local/bin
14:52<andythenorth>I have r2200
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood the name "usr" anyway... certainly doesn't have anything to do with "user"
14:53<@Alberth>(20:51:20) andythenorth: make test should pass with nml tip and python3.3? <-- I just checked, it does
14:53<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: / is single user mode, /usr is mounted in multi-user mode, ie normal operation
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that makes absolutely no sense
14:55<@Alberth>they are run states of the OS, probably hysteric rasins made /usr and it stuck around, as these things do
14:56<andythenorth>0.3.1 also fails
14:56<andythenorth>but looks like missing PIL
14:56<@Alberth>andythenorth: no nml/ (it's 9333 bytes here)
14:57<andythenorth>9333 bytes here too
14:57<@Alberth>python3 ; from ply import lex
14:58<andythenorth>no ply
14:58<andythenorth>and no PIL
14:58<andythenorth>I’ll sort the deps out first
14:58*andythenorth has to read how to make a virtualenv
14:59<@Alberth>pillow, actually, I don't think there is a real PIL for python3
14:59<andythenorth>yeah I’ll get pillow
14:59<@Alberth>make a few notes today :p
14:59<andythenorth>first I have to get virtualenv for python3
15:00<andythenorth>which means I need pip for python3
15:00<andythenorth>which means I need distribute for python3
15:01<andythenorth>or setuptools
15:01<andythenorth>or something
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15:03<andythenorth>I’m posting here in case it’s some kind of use in future :P
15:03<@Alberth>the Internet is of course the ideal place to store such personal notes :p
15:04<andythenorth>hth do I get pip to run under python3
15:04<andythenorth>I don’t want to change my system python just for this
15:04*andythenorth *hates* python packaging
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>sure, just name your backup "Lost.all.seasons" and put it in a torrent. free distributed backup :p
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there is a pip3 of course
15:07<andythenorth>got it
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15:11<andythenorth>and that is how we do it
15:11*andythenorth should probably document that for other poor OS X users
15:12<andythenorth>or I coud draw a boat :(
15:12<@Alberth>instead of getting an OS that can do these things, you manage your packages manually
15:12<@Alberth>and you pay big bucks to get to do it as well
15:13<andythenorth>no comment :P
15:13<@Alberth>wise decision :p
15:14<andythenorth>I work with linux devs who think it’s normal to recompile the kernel to try and fix a crashing wifi driver
15:14<andythenorth>or who only have VGA support on their DVI-out laptop :P
15:14<@Alberth>right :p
15:14<andythenorth>we all have our curses to bear
15:14<@Alberth>I did such things when I was young :)
15:15<andythenorth>there’s nothing stopping one of us (OS X users) writing a decent package manager
15:15<andythenorth>we just prefer to whine about it seems
15:16<andythenorth>32 nml tests passed
15:16<@Alberth>much easier borrow one from linuces
15:16<Rubidium>andythenorth: isn't the OS X package manager called iTunes?
15:16<andythenorth>App Store now :P
15:17<andythenorth>Alberth: I think they started out by copying BSD Ports Tree, might have been a bad place
15:17<andythenorth>updating a simple package can lead to a recursive port update that takes hours and leaves gcc tying up the cpu
15:17<andythenorth>I guess that’s how a depgraph works though :P
15:17<@Alberth>obviously compiling all programs yourself is very useful :p
15:18<andythenorth>anyway, what was I actually doing?
15:18<@Alberth>trying to run nml with pythno3 in something python2
15:18<andythenorth>oh that yes
15:19<andythenorth>let’s see if I broke my compiles
15:19<@Alberth>as well as trying to answer my roster question, if you have seen it
15:19<andythenorth>FISH compile works, and the deprecation messages about PIL tostring() stuff have gone
15:19<andythenorth>what’s the roster question?
15:20<@Alberth>(20:48:15) Alberth: <-- this is what you mean with "roster" in fish?
15:20<@Alberth>I don't understand what "roster" is
15:20<@Alberth>for translating to dutch
15:21<Taede>roster: selection of vehicles available (for instance, dutch ships, british ships)
15:21<Taede>not unlike industry set selection in firs?
15:21<andythenorth>more like
15:21<andythenorth>yes similar to FIRS economy
15:21<andythenorth>same concept in Iron Horse and Road Hog
15:21<@Alberth>This Sceptered Isle / The Blue Danube refer to something?
15:22<andythenorth>This Sceptered Isle <- Brit
15:22<andythenorth>think it’s a Shakespeare line
15:22*andythenorth checks
15:22<andythenorth>This precious stone set in the silver sea,
15:22<andythenorth>Which serves it in the office of a wall
15:22<andythenorth>Or as a moat defensive to a house,
15:23<andythenorth>The Blue Danube is generic european river boats
15:23<andythenorth>france/germany/switzerland/austria/hungary etc
15:23<andythenorth>rhine / rhone / elbe / danube
15:25<@Alberth>nice reference :) thanks
15:28<andythenorth>let’s try frosch’s patch...
15:31<andythenorth>frosch123 so I should use the effect_spawn_model prop, not visual_effect?
15:31<andythenorth>seems the obvious conclusion
15:32<frosch123> <- yup, remove all "visual_effect", and add effect_spawn_model and create_effect
15:43<andythenorth>so can’t use python3 nml and python2 build
15:43*andythenorth overlooked that nmlc is installed into the virtualenv
15:46<andythenorth>I guess I could have the makefile switch virtualenv
15:49<andythenorth>nml is borked
15:49<andythenorth>make install fails I think
15:51<andythenorth>L145 onwards
15:53<frosch123>that is not in my nml
15:55<frosch123>your quote uses python2 syntax
15:55<frosch123>so, what nml are you running?
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15:59<andythenorth>this is nml 0.4.0
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16:03<andythenorth>well the smoke works
16:03<andythenorth>frosch left too early :P
16:06<andythenorth>steam hovercraft ftw
16:06<andythenorth>looks nice
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16:22<andythenorth>maybe I should convert my compiles to python 3
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>how does that help anybody?
16:27<andythenorth>I don’t see how a python3 project will run in a python2 environment
16:27<andythenorth>fundamentally, how is that supposed to work?
16:28<andythenorth>surely it’s just a fool’s errand?
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16:29<Eddi|zuHause>the point is that you can easily have python2 and python3 simultaneously
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>as long as one script doesn't call the other script, there's no overlap
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>and if you'd use the makefile for calling scripts like normal people...
16:31<andythenorth>this is the makefil
16:31<andythenorth>makefile *
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16:32<andythenorth>if I call python3 nml with a python2 virtualenv active, it bails
16:32<andythenorth>as you’d expect :P
16:32<andythenorth>how is this not the expected result?
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>in the makefile you have a line "PYTHON=blah", just replace that with two lines "PYTHON2=blah" and "PYTHON3=blub". then replace every $(PYTHON) with either $(PYTHON2) or $(PYTHON3)
16:33<keoz>Changing the did the trick for me
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>of course your "virtualenv" needs to have both python2 and python3 installed
16:34<andythenorth>this seems like a lot of string
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>oh, also every literal "python" needs to be changed into either of these
16:38<andythenorth>I don’t understand how to install 2 pythons into a virtualenv
16:38<andythenorth>that seems to be anti-virtualenv
16:39<andythenorth>I think if I go into #python or whatever and ask how to switch pythons in a virtualenv, I’ll get kbanned
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>your virtualenvs seem to be a terrible concept
16:39<andythenorth>they’re not mine :O
16:39<andythenorth>they’re the standard solution
16:39<andythenorth>I have no other fricking idea how you do work
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>is that like a chroot?
16:39<andythenorth>honestly how do you get anything done without virtualenv?
16:40<andythenorth>in any given day I am working on python 2.4, python 2.6, python 2.7 and now, python 3
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>who says i get anything done?
16:40<andythenorth>plus Apple have their own ideas about python
16:40<@Alberth>it has its own ideas about everything :)
16:41<andythenorth>it used to have one idea
16:41<andythenorth>now it has many
16:41<andythenorth>one man, one idea
16:41<keoz>Switch to linux.
16:42<andythenorth>does that magically run multiple pythons together?
16:42<andythenorth>do your scripts just ‘know’ which one to use?
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16:42<keoz>well at least here, I have python 2 and 3. Without problems.
16:42<andythenorth>how do they know?
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>they say that in the first line
16:43<andythenorth>ha :)
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16:44<@Alberth>#!/usr/bin/env python3
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>this first line gets evaluated by your shell, when you type "./"
16:44<andythenorth>changing the shebangs is definitely seen as good practice
16:45<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: sure it's the shell, I think it deeper, in the kernel somewhere
16:45<andythenorth>changing the shebangs on every file definitely wouldn’t get your commits reverted instantly
16:45<andythenorth>anyway, I can’t see how to make progress
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>and then you get the weird distributions who think /bin/python should be mapped to /bin/python3
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>where every legacy python program will break
16:46<andythenorth>or they just get a virtualenv...
16:46<andythenorth>anyway the virtualenv is misleading
16:46<andythenorth>even with virtualenv deactivated, nml is still borked
16:47<andythenorth>it only works if I run it in a python3 virtualenv
16:47<andythenorth>maybe it’s just missing deps
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>it probably is
16:47<andythenorth>so I have to install deps systemwide to get this to work?
16:48<andythenorth>that is just not the right solution
16:48<andythenorth>installing deps systemwide is always a problem
16:48<andythenorth>always / often /s
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>you can easily install the deps into the nml directory
16:49<andythenorth>that sounds good
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>well, "install"
16:49<andythenorth>add it to the path?
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>the pythonpath variable?
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>that should work
16:50<andythenorth>I suspect that might be all a virtualenv really does :P I didn’t check
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>there should be a Makefile.local where you can cram that stuff into
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe Makefile.config
16:51<andythenorth>there is
16:54<andythenorth>I think if I just migrated my scripts to python 3 this would go away as a problem
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16:55<Eddi|zuHause>problems that are made to "go away" have a tendency to reappear
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>like you solve it for FISH, now, next week you have to do it for FIRS as well
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>and then for iron horse, and then...
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17:01*andythenorth could just give in and add the deps systemwide
17:01<andythenorth>I’ll get yelled at for it…later
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>the key element to check for adding things systemwide is that you don't break stuff that is already working by doing so
17:11<andythenorth>I’ve got a magic get out for most cases now
17:11<andythenorth>which is that policy is to use virtualenv
17:11<andythenorth>that only leaves non-work stuff to go wrong
17:12<andythenorth>ply fails to install
17:12<andythenorth>pillow installed ok
17:12<andythenorth>but python3 can’t find it
17:12<andythenorth>it’s in the site-packages dir that python3 is running from
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17:14*andythenorth rtfm on PYTHONPATH
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17:21<Eddi|zuHause>somewhen i'm gonna add a manual called "m.rtf"
17:25<andythenorth>tfm doesn’t explain why my python 2.7 is now importing from the python 3.3 site-packages
17:25<andythenorth>so PIL is broken
17:25<andythenorth>amongst other fun things
17:28<andythenorth>ok, bed time
17:28<andythenorth>I broke everything, time to stop
17:28<andythenorth>I now have broken nml, broken Iron Horse, broken FISH, broken bash_profile, and broken system-wide python
17:28<andythenorth>doing pretty well
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>just a normal day at the office
17:30<andythenorth>a good day’s work
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's why whenever someone asks what i'm doing, i'm answering "i'm breaking everything"
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>with the bonus that if it's actually broken afterwards i can say "i told you so"
17:33<andythenorth>I will come back to this tomorrow, or another day entirely :P
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17:36<andythenorth>it’s not helpful that the version of nmlc created by make install appears to be borked
17:39*andythenorth tests other tags
17:39<andythenorth>0.3.1 is borked
17:40<andythenorth>0.3.0 tests pass
17:43<andythenorth>the effects patch works on nml 0.3.0 too
17:44<andythenorth>although that solves not a lot :)
17:47<Zuu>Or just stick to python 2.x?
17:47<Zuu>That seems to be what most people do.
17:48<andythenorth>not an option
17:48<andythenorth>nml has moved to python3
17:48<andythenorth>the version that will be shipped to bundle server will be python3
17:48<andythenorth>I assume
18:00<andythenorth>don’t even ask
18:00<andythenorth> PYTHONPATH=../../lib/python2.6/site-packages && python2.7 src/
18:00<andythenorth>in a python3 virtualenv
18:00<andythenorth>possibly works
18:00<andythenorth>and yes, 2.6 and 2.7 are not a typo :(
18:01<andythenorth>definitely bedtime
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18:26<berndj-blackout>i've always wondered about openttd's splash screen - is it just an animation or is it running a simulation in the background?
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18:32<Zuu>berndj-blackout: It is a savegame running in the background
18:32<Zuu>Copy it to opentile.sav and you can open it in the game.
18:33<berndj-blackout>heh, cool, i'm totally going to do that right now
18:42<berndj-blackout>*opntitle.dat btw; money everywhere!
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18:44<@planetmaker>probably cheated money, berndj-blackout
18:44<@planetmaker>check the cheat dialogue (ctrl+alt+c)
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18:46<berndj-blackout>it doesn't show any operating cheats for me...
18:47<@planetmaker>then it's indeed well-earned money
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18:51<berndj-blackout>i'm not referring to the total amount, just to income popping up everywhere
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18:54<@planetmaker>ah yeah. Pretty busy savegame for the 1.4 series :)
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19:06<berndj-blackout>in general, if i want to "up my game", what's a good idea to do?
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19:11<@planetmaker>what do you understand under "up your game"?
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19:12<@planetmaker>The best way is to just play. Maybe join a multiplayer server where you can play with other people and get direct feedback
19:12<@planetmaker>e.g. the #openttdcoop or reddit servers
19:13<berndj-blackout>for one, i want my networks to end up looking less like this:
19:13<berndj-blackout>yeah i tried reddit's servers but apparently i need their custom client. i don't have the courage to compile openttd right now
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19:14<@planetmaker>you only need that on some of their servers. Or join the #openttdcoop Welcome server
19:16<Sylf>awww, that spaghetti juction is half way beautiful
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19:43<berndj-blackout>Sylf, care to elaborate? do you mean in an aesthetic sense or technically? i built it organically. originally just one line running between lake and city
19:44<Sylf>It's fun to look at
19:44<Sylf>There's nothing wrong with rails going everywhere in my play style, as long as they are all built with intention
19:48<berndj-blackout>i find a lot of my rail chaos results from trying to gradually convert between rail types. i end up with duplicated paths
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21:10<berndj-blackout>is it considered good style to walk or to join stations? i'm still looking for solutions to my bank-too-far-from-the-station problem
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21:14<Sylf>that depends on who you ask. if you're okay with it, it's okay.
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