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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-08-23

---Logopened Sat Aug 23 00:00:00 2014
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02:09<andythenorth>no eddi?
02:09<andythenorth>:P
02:20<Pikka>no, eddi.
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02:31<andythenorth>bonjour le pikka
02:32<Pikka>si
02:32<Rubidium>bonjour l'andylenord
02:33*andythenorth has learnt one more bit of ‘proper’ programming
02:34<andythenorth>and is now leet
02:34<Pikka>famcy
02:34<Pikka>and fancy
02:34<andythenorth>I’ve only been writing code for 31 years
02:34<andythenorth>at the rate I’m learning, I’ll be competent soon
02:37<andythenorth>Pikka: and boots?
02:38*Pikka writes a blog
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02:47<Pikka>http://pikkarail.com/uncategorized/basic-ship-geometry/
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03:05*planetmaker wishes a good morning and reads a blog
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03:15<andythenorth>Pikka: sometimes I think FISH should have stopped where it started - mini mover by lead@inbox https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6434/mini%20mover.png
03:16<andythenorth>I always wanted to make the cargo boat here http://mrsfoxs.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/ladybird-tuesday-toys-and-games-to-make.html
03:16<andythenorth>but I had no idea what a date box was
03:16<andythenorth>or even dates
03:16<andythenorth>childhood classic though
03:23<Pikka>good old ladybird books
03:24<Pikka>from loughborough
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03:46<Pikka>doesn't it
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03:50<andythenorth>pitfall #7 - unexpected things will happen if you have been arsing around with “export PYTHONPATH=foo/bar”
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03:51<Pikka>"unexpected"
03:53<andythenorth>I broke your nml
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03:54<andythenorth>fishes is too big
03:54<andythenorth>everything should be 1 tile
03:55<Pikka>articulated ships
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03:56<Pikka>everything should be one pixel, and sprites built up on the fly using articulated vehicles and custom smoke effects
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03:56<andythenorth>I am considering it with custom effects
03:56<andythenorth>procedural generation :P
03:56<andythenorth>voxels!
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03:56<Pikka>perhaps we should all just move to train fever
03:57<andythenorth>oh yes that
03:57<andythenorth>your August 11 boats conclusion is pretty similar to my conclusion on squids
03:57<andythenorth>upgrading small boats has ~bugger all point
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03:58<andythenorth>I’ve even deleted most of the date-sensitive sprites in recent Squid
03:58<andythenorth>it’s weird and confusing when they change
03:59<Pikka>"realism" be damned!
03:59<Pikka>it's less confusing, I think, if there are fewer vehicles in the list
04:01<Pikka>or if their use is more obvious
04:01<Pikka>players don't get confused by passenger carriage graphics changing
04:02<andythenorth>I think it depends who’s drawn the sprites and what they look like
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04:03<andythenorth>I removed this one for example https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/1400/entry/src/graphics/little_cumbrae_freighter_0.png
04:04<andythenorth>which was turning into this one https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/1400/entry/src/graphics/little_cumbrae_freighter_1.png
04:10<Pikka>look the same to me :o
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04:13<andythenorth>one is missing a house
04:13<andythenorth>for realism purposes
04:13<Pikka>how realistic
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04:18<Eddi|zuHause>yay, ext4lazyinit seems to have finished
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04:20<andythenorth>also black ships
04:20<andythenorth>not CC
04:20<andythenorth>realisms
04:20<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> pitfall #7 - unexpected things will happen if you have been arsing around with “export PYTHONPATH=foo/bar” <-- makefiles can append to the variable instead of overwriting it
04:20<andythenorth>you pre-empted my paste :(
04:20<andythenorth>where’s the glory now?
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'm level 3 psychic
04:21<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3654/
04:22<andythenorth>and then make L11 properly use variables
04:22<andythenorth>and set them in Makefile.local
04:22<andythenorth>and this way I don’t have to migrate everything
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04:25<andythenorth>but I’m going to migrate some anyway, to learn how python 3 differs from 2
04:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but do that after it works...
04:28<andythenorth>Pikka: Lego boots? http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110315172250/lego/images/0/08/4030-1.jpg
04:28<andythenorth>http://cache.lego.com/e/dynamic/is/image/LEGO/4645?$main$
04:28<andythenorth>compressed scale, reduced detail...
04:29<andythenorth>also hoverzellepincrafts http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/le/lego-city-7944-fire-hovercraft.jpg
04:29<andythenorth>got the fire one, it’s pretty good
04:29<andythenorth>didn’t get this one, got enough probly http://bricker.info/images/sets/7045_brickset.jpg
04:31<Pikka>probably
04:34<Pikka>I only had http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090509145043/lego/images/a/af/4010_Police_Rescue_Boat.jpg
04:34<Pikka>and of course http://lego.brickinstructions.com/06000/6268/001.jpg
04:38<andythenorth>pirates :o
04:38<andythenorth>lucky Pikka
04:38<Pikka>I had it considerably second-hand
04:38<andythenorth>I had only http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110227225806/lego/images/5/5c/4005-1.jpg
04:39<andythenorth>but now I have paypal
04:39<@peter1138>yay, lego when lego was proper lego
04:39<andythenorth>and internets
04:39<andythenorth>peter1138: you mean 8bpp?
04:39<@peter1138>:S
04:40<andythenorth>no anti-aliasing
04:40<@peter1138>that cabin on thje new one is looking like a one-piece part
04:41<andythenorth>on the hoverzellepiin?
04:42<@peter1138>on 7944 and 7045
04:43<@peter1138>proper lego: lego where you had to build things with lego bricks, instead of using preformed objects
04:43<@peter1138>besides horses and bikes
04:43<Pikka>those boat hulls were pretty preformed
04:43<@peter1138>yeah true
04:44<@peter1138>but that's so we could pretend they'd be watertight
04:44<andythenorth>they never were :P
04:44<Pikka>4010 was, it floated
04:44<Pikka>and had a clip on the bottom for a motor
04:44<andythenorth>I am still shocked about doors
04:45<andythenorth>what’s wrong with brick built doors?
04:45<andythenorth>and slopes
04:45<andythenorth>why use slopes?
04:45<andythenorth>you can just put bricks on an offset
04:45<andythenorth>and wheels, they’re cheating
04:47<@peter1138>./ban andythenorth
04:48<Pikka>also, there are no colours except black, white, red, blue, yellow, and twenty shades of discoloured grey.
04:49<andythenorth>green
04:49<andythenorth>but only baseplates
04:49<andythenorth>and trees
04:49<@peter1138>and trees
04:49<@peter1138>and flower bases
04:49<@peter1138>look, i don't mind new parts or colours or whatever
04:49<@peter1138>but when large parts of something is a preformed complex shape... no
04:52<andythenorth>makes a nice train though isn’t it http://www.brickpicker.com/images/set_images/brickpicker_set_7939_8.jpg
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04:55<Pikka>taking the preformed parts and doing something different with them is always good fun
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05:02<Wolf01>hi hi
05:03<andythenorth>Pikka: what colour you painting your boots?
05:03<Pikka>don't know yet
05:04<Pikka>black in olden tiems and less black in newer tiems?
05:09<andythenorth>praps
05:09<andythenorth>makes buy menu unpleasing though
05:10<andythenorth>pleasing: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=147300
05:10<andythenorth>unpleasing http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=180210
05:22<andythenorth>bbl
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06:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26755 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2014-08-23 10:44:32 UTC)
06:44<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26747) [FS#6093]: Silence MSVC warning.
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07:55<Rubidium>is there anyone with a clue of train tickets in the UK, especially near London? Do I need to request something special when trying to buy a ticket from St. Pancras to Newbury and from Newbury to South Kensington, or do I need to buy the tube tickets separately?
07:56<Rubidium>the national rail site isn't really clear on it
07:58<Rubidium>mostly because buying tickets as a foreigner is a PITA as well
08:02<LordAro>no one understands the UK rail ticket system
08:05<LordAro>i'm not entirely sure, but i'd assume the tube tickets are included
08:07<LordAro>Rubidium, http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx implies yes, tickets included
08:07<LadyHawk>i live in the uk but i dont have much of a clue
08:07<LadyHawk>i remember jumping on a train cuz i couldnt buy a ticket at the station
08:08<LordAro>LadyHawk, i was in London yesterday and i don't know :p
08:08<LadyHawk>only to find out i couldnt get OFF the station at my destination
08:08<LadyHawk>had t obuy a ticket there
08:08<LadyHawk>doh
08:08<LordAro>LadyHawk, those are the most fun of journeys :)
08:09<Rubidium>LordAro: that page has me still puzzling
08:09<LadyHawk>i'd guess you can look and see if you can buy 1 ticket from start to finish.. but if someone tells you you can't, or the machine doesn't let you, then buy seperate
08:09<LadyHawk>if you buy ticket on the train it'll cost more, but you can
08:10<LadyHawk>as for tube.. prolly same
08:10<LadyHawk>dunno
08:10<LordAro>Rubidium, :p
08:10<Rubidium>"'London Terminal' stations" is the most flabbergasting thing
08:10<LordAro>Rubidium, if you want to be absolutely sure, add a day travelcard to the fare, and that'll get you anywhere on the underground
08:11<LadyHawk>any big station is flabbergasting
08:11<LadyHawk>to me
08:11<LadyHawk>lol
08:11<LadyHawk>i get lost in those places :)
08:11<LadyHawk><< got no pidgeon homing instinct
08:11<Rubidium>so... it's any of those terminal stations in london provided you don't need to pass through or around London or something like that
08:11<LordAro>actually, looking at the route, you can't add a travelcard, so it must indeed be already included
08:14<Rubidium>I guess the South Kensington area has enough for me to do on a Friday evening to not need a travelcard
08:14<LordAro>well, that's probably true
08:14<LordAro>although all the museums are closed by 18:30
08:15<LadyHawk>similarly flabbergasting in holland.. last time i was there, i went to buy a ticket from the station's ticket machine. it didn't accept my card, so jumped on train without ticket. guy comes round, try to buy ticket from him but was charged so much extra i didn't have the cash. was told get off the train at <STATIONNAME>, there's a ticket office there. so i did.... ticket office was closed.
08:15<LadyHawk>got on the next train and got to where i was going without a ticket
08:15<LadyHawk>even people that work there dont have a clue!
08:16<LordAro>LadyHawk, as long as the station at the other end doesn't have gates, you can always do that
08:16<LordAro>but it's rather un-British ;)
08:16<Rubidium>yeah, those machines didn't accept credit cards since barely anyone uses them in the Netherlands
08:16<LadyHawk>i got lucky, all gates there worked except for 1 that was open & everyone used that one
08:16<Rubidium>now the machines apparantly accept credit cards
08:17<LadyHawk>i got a visa DEBIT card.. no credit card
08:17<LadyHawk>silly thing
08:17<LadyHawk>visa isnt widely used or anything </sarcasm> so lets not accept it
08:17<LadyHawk>lol
08:18<LadyHawk>but yeah if ur clueless about what ticket to get.. just hop on without a ticket.. when bloke comes round asking for ticket, buy one off him.. he'll know which one you need
08:18<LadyHawk>no biggy
08:19<Rubidium>well, it's not really sarcasm... but visa or mastercard are barely used here and as such barely accepted
08:19<LadyHawk>ahh
08:19<LadyHawk>didn't know that :)
08:19<Rubidium>and if it is supported, they often ask for extra fees compared to the maestro cards
08:20<LadyHawk>makes sense asking for fees on things you have no choice but to get
08:20<Rubidium>why don't you have a choice?
08:21<LadyHawk>if it's the only thing you have
08:21<LadyHawk>you dont have a choice
08:21<Rubidium>any Dutch bank gives out maestro cards
08:21<LadyHawk>but if you visit another country you're not going to request a bank card specifically for that country
08:22<Rubidium>and having a visa/mastercard costs more than you pay your bank for having an account, all the wire-transfers you want and the maestro card
08:22<LadyHawk>hmmm, what?
08:22<LadyHawk>what do you mean, higher fees or something?
08:23<LadyHawk>i'm not exactly an expert on those kind of things, but what you're saying here sounds interesting
08:23<Rubidium>yeah, for a mastercard creditcard I have to pay about EUR 18 per year, for my bank account + maestro I pay EUR 15 per year (with free bank transfers using IBAN and EUR)
08:24<Rubidium>not to mention the fee for withdrawing money from the mastercard thing compared to no fee for the maestro (for EUR)
08:24<LadyHawk>interesting
08:25<LadyHawk>im not sure if i'm paying anything for my normal bank (visa debit)
08:25<LadyHawk>free transfers, including with IBAN, all i know i'm paying for is the conversion from GBP to EUR
08:25<LadyHawk>which is fairly high compared to the standard conversion rates
08:25<frosch123>here most bank accounts are free if you store your main earnings on them
08:26<frosch123>that is some minimum transfers towards them per month, though it does not matter how much you transfer away again :p
08:26<frosch123>other account types have no fees if there is some minimum average balance on the account
08:27<frosch123>which is essentially the same, but less dubious
08:27<LadyHawk>you got similar things here
08:27<LadyHawk>usually as an 'upgraded' bank account with pointless features on them
08:28<LadyHawk>keep x amount of money in there, (bout £2000 or summat) and there's no fees
08:28<LadyHawk>i dont have that
08:28<LadyHawk>im not rich enough lol
08:29<LadyHawk>but i'm going to keep an eye out in the future now about those fees & other strings attached.. didn't realise there's a fair amount of differences
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08:29<LadyHawk>thanks for sharing :)
08:30<frosch123>well, if you consider normal interest rates, you also end up with rb's 15€
08:32<Rubidium>here there are some banks that give you a lower mortgage interest rate when your salary is put on the bank account at their bank
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08:41<Eddi|zuHause>i used to have a free account, but then my student status ran out
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08:50<andythenorth>frosch123: nml effects patch does everything I expected afaict
08:51<andythenorth>commit it?
08:52<frosch123>did you also use the create_effect function inside the switch?
08:54<andythenorth>no, looks like I”m returning bytes
08:57*andythenorth eating
08:57<andythenorth>will test in a minute
08:57<andythenorth>planetmaker: hi hi, can talk?
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09:11<andythenorth>lo Alberth
09:12<@Alberth>moin andy
09:12<andythenorth>frosch123: do I miss something here? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3658/
09:12<andythenorth>previous version with hex values worked
09:13<andythenorth>maybe I have parentheses wrong or such?
09:14<frosch123>nah, that's exactly why i wanted you to test it :)
09:21<frosch123>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3659/ <- does that work better?
09:23*andythenorth tests
09:24<andythenorth>frosch123: compiles
09:24<andythenorth>testing in game now
09:25<andythenorth>works afaict
09:25<andythenorth>when I start putting smoke in proper positions I’ll have more data :)
09:26<andythenorth>next I need to figure out how bundles can build a project with python 2 and python 3 components
09:26<andythenorth>frosch123: commit all the things? o_O
09:29<frosch123>pushed
09:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26756 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2014-08-23 13:31:20 UTC)
09:31<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26747): Ground vehicle breakdown smoke was not supposed to be available yet, since it is a looping animation.
09:33<frosch123>V453000: you can now make trains emit the black aircraft smoke. so if you want the moody trains to emit black smoke, or the zebra slug to emit zebra smoke, ...
09:37<andythenorth>yay black smoke for steam ships
09:38<andythenorth>the breakdown smoke gives an….interesting effect
09:38<andythenorth>doesn’t clear :D
09:38<@Alberth>sparkles and sprinkles!
09:39<frosch123>andythenorth: exactly why i just removed it
09:39<frosch123>i knew about that, but forgot it :p
09:39<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6435/smoke.png
09:39<andythenorth>I didn’t pull yet ;)
09:40<@Alberth>nice for tracking route used by the ship
09:40<andythenorth>electric ship looks nice
09:40<andythenorth>bit like a waterspout
09:40<andythenorth>might be good for hoverzellepins
09:45<LordAro>i think your ship has a leak
09:46<frosch123>leaking effect vehicles :p
09:55<keoz>that's pretty
09:57-!-McxCZE [4f62488c@109.169.29.95] has joined #openttd
09:57<McxCZE>Hi Guys.
09:58<McxCZE>Need help, I have dedicated OpenTTD server on Ubuntu terminal and I am using frodus openttd to start it and manage, However everything is fine, One problem, After tonight the server Bankrupts all the companies I have been with my friends building up basically overnight.
09:58<frosch123>check autoclean settings
09:58<McxCZE>In Openttd cfg ?
09:58<frosch123>yes
09:59<frosch123>there are settings to remove companies without active clients after some game months
09:59<Zuu>If autosave is enabled, you can possible find a save with the companies non-deleted.
09:59<frosch123>though you may also consider enabling to pause the game when no clients are around
09:59<McxCZE>Yeah, that would be nice too.
09:59<McxCZE>How do I set it up in cfg ? Cause the Cfg help in wiki is quite hectic.
10:00<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/Autoclean_protected https://wiki.openttd.org/Autoclean_unprotected https://wiki.openttd.org/Autoclean_novehicles https://wiki.openttd.org/Min_active_clients
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10:01<frosch123>only edit the config file directly, while ottd is not running, else it will overwrite the config again when exiting
10:01<McxCZE>autoclean companies.
10:01<McxCZE>true
10:01<McxCZE>Ha false setted up.
10:01<frosch123>though you can also change them ingame while the server is running
10:01<McxCZE>yep used frodus to stop it.
10:01<McxCZE>Yeah ?
10:01<McxCZE>So I dont have to SSH to my ubuntu to change it ?
10:02<frosch123>no, setup a rcon password
10:02<frosch123>and you can use the ottd client
10:02<McxCZE>admin_password ?
10:02<McxCZE>Thats what I use to join the RCON through the TTD client ?
10:03<McxCZE>Found it.
10:03<frosch123>no, rcon_pw or similar
10:03<McxCZE>RCON Password.
10:03<frosch123>if you have set a password, you can open the in-game console with the key left to "1" (usually ^ or ~)
10:04<frosch123>and use: rcon password "set min_active_clients 5"
10:04<frosch123>and similar
10:04*andythenorth has silly ideas
10:06<andythenorth>also I’d better learn how hg works
10:06<andythenorth>I’m on default branch, I want to commit to smoke branch, I have uncommitted changes
10:06<andythenorth>only solution I see is to save a patch
10:07<frosch123>i would use mq :)
10:07<frosch123>hg qnew meh.diff -m "Boo"
10:07<frosch123>hg qpop
10:07<frosch123>hg branch hoo
10:08<frosch123>hg qfinish -a
10:08<frosch123>or "hg qpush" if you do not want to commit immediately
10:08<keoz>andythenorth: takes a little moment initially to understand how it works, but when you get it, it's a pleasure
10:08<andythenorth>I am reading this to try and understand the tool I’m using :P http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/GitConcepts
10:08<andythenorth>I’ve been using hg much longer than git, but never understood it
10:09<keoz>I converted every project I'm working on in hg repositories
10:09<andythenorth>:)
10:10<keoz>and mqueues rox
10:10<andythenorth>I could just do this in default, and break bundles server
10:11<keoz>andythenorth: http://hgbook.red-bean.com/read/a-tour-of-mercurial-the-basics.html
10:11<keoz>that one is really good to start with
10:11<andythenorth>I read that about 5 years ago :)
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10:11<keoz>well, you're used to it then :p
10:12<andythenorth>hg is great for people who don’t understand vcs
10:12<andythenorth>the problem is I now understand just enough to be dangerous
10:12<andythenorth>and I’ve been using a lot of git
10:12<keoz>also for people who never tried to understand it :p
10:12<keoz>hg is the first versioning system I'm using
10:12<McxCZE>Guys one more Question. How to save and autoload map on server start ?
10:12<andythenorth>frosch123: seems appropriate http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=494743&nseq=0
10:12<McxCZE>Plus where do I find autopause.
10:13<McxCZE>in Openttd cfg when there is no players.
10:13<keoz>nice picture
10:13<keoz>I'm always amazed seeing those weird US long train with a lot of engines :p
10:13<Taede>autopause: set min_active_clients to 1 (or more)
10:14<Taede>on server start, do you mean when server starts from command line, or when server restarts?
10:15<McxCZE>server restarts and there is a symlink created from frodus in the /etc/init.d/openttd
10:15<McxCZE>So it should automatically start, but will it load the previous map ?
10:16<Taede>no, but you can supply a savegame with -g commandline parameter
10:16<McxCZE>In case of Power Failure or so ?
10:16<McxCZE>Automatically ?
10:16<Taede>no, you'd have to supply the savegame as a parameter
10:16<Taede>there's no built-in way to load last autosave afaik
10:22<McxCZE>Ok.
10:22<McxCZE>I believe it wont be necessary since that 1U server I am now restarting hasnt been restarted or powered down fro 325 days.
10:22<andythenorth>maybe I need hg shelve
10:23<Taede>what os?
10:24<andythenorth>frick, merge conflicts :(
10:24<McxCZE>Ubuntu server OS. Stripped down, basically nothing added.
10:24<McxCZE>Installed SSH, Warcraft Server, Mysql, OpenTTD.
10:24<McxCZE>Unzip.
10:24<Taede>https://rhodecode.openttdcoop.org/ofs <-- ofs-start.py should do what you want, though it may be a bit overkill
10:24<Taede>written in python
10:24<McxCZE>And some dependecies to compile OpenTTD
10:25<andythenorth>hg must have some equivalent to mergetool
10:27<@Alberth>it mostly has hooks for 3rd-party tools, iirc
10:27<andythenorth>I should learn about them
10:27<andythenorth>every time I try to use branches in hg, I give up because of merges
10:28<@Alberth>the trick with branches is not to mess in the same area of the code
10:28<andythenorth>:)
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10:29<andythenorth>that must be fun in collaborative projects
10:29<@Alberth>if standard merging fails, I just drop down to a text editor and merge things manually, doesn't happen often
10:30<@Alberth>"collaborative" does not mean you have no idea where other make a mess :)
10:30<@Alberth>manual merging is also quite feasible if you have a nice editor like gvimdiff
10:31<@Alberth>I often use that to move changes for some features into a sanely ordered stack of patches
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10:32<@Alberth>ie make a clone, hack at random until you have something you like
10:33<andythenorth>you should see my git branch tree :P
10:33<andythenorth>branch, try something, have another idea, branch again, branch again
10:33<andythenorth>merge, merge, merge, reset, merge :P
10:33<@Alberth>then make a fresh clone, and open each changed file of the hacked clone against the same file in the new clone, and copy changes
10:34<@Alberth>yeah, git wants to do all crap in the same repo
10:34<@Alberth>but cloning is cheap
10:34<@Alberth>and it makes changes more independent, if you have a clone for each change
10:34<andythenorth>I think svn -> hg -> git was a good learning order for me
10:34<andythenorth>hg is *so* much better than svn
10:34<Zuu>Git make it hard to produce a nice history by lacking queues.
10:34<andythenorth>but hg has given me a healthy respect for the good and bad sides of git
10:35*Zuu has also made the svn -> hg -> git path
10:35<@Alberth>you don't need queues if you do rebasing
10:36<andythenorth>rebasing is terrifying :)
10:36<@Alberth>but for me rebasing is too ugly and complicated
10:36<Zuu>I tried to learn rebasing and cherry picking, but it feels so complicated compared to hg queues.
10:36<@Alberth>being terryfing doesn't stop people from it, apparently
10:40<@Alberth>hmm, stl sets use comparator function objects, how ugly :(
10:42<andythenorth>seems to be quite tricky to configure a mergetool for hg
10:42<andythenorth>needs shell scripts, and extra extensions
10:44<@Alberth>yeah, I configured it to try its internal things, and otherwise give up
10:44<@Alberth>most times, I don't understand the merge tool anyway
10:45<andythenorth>I’m just going to make a new branch
10:45<andythenorth>too much time configuring stuff, not enough time making stuff :(
10:45<andythenorth>trying to do things right is really quite time consuming
10:45<andythenorth>as is fixing things done wrong :P
10:46<@Alberth>yep, but the latter stays if you don't do the former
10:46*andythenorth wonders what a hg bookmark is
10:47<frosch123>a local tag
10:47<andythenorth>branch nags me about them
10:47<frosch123>(iirc)
10:47<andythenorth>implies I am Doing Something Wrong
10:48<@Alberth>assuming a bookmark is just a revision, it is probably nagging about bookmarks at the wrong branch
10:49<andythenorth>it says I should use them
10:49<andythenorth>not branches
10:49<@Alberth>oh, could be
10:49<andythenorth>oic
10:49<@Alberth>I just clone a new copy for each branch
10:50<andythenorth>bundles builds all branches :)
10:50<andythenorth>so now bundles is failing and nagging
10:50<andythenorth>what larks :)
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10:51<andythenorth>hmm
10:51<andythenorth>could we animate trees?
10:51<andythenorth>that would be a good use of CPU :P
10:51<andythenorth>they would sway in the wind
10:53<keoz>Alberth: why do you copy/past from your hacked clone to a fresh one, instead of just commit and push from the hacked one ?
10:55<@Alberth>keoz: the order of making changes to reach some functionality is very not logical, so I need to regroup and re-order the changes
10:56<@Alberth>also leave non-essential changes out, etc
10:56<@Alberth>so I write each patch about 3-4 times.
10:57<@Alberth>once or twice for an attempt that fails eventually, one time for a working attempt, one time for a sanely ordered logical stack of changes, worthy of trunkifying
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10:58<@Alberth>then comes review, which usually at least makes minor changes, but often also "yeah, looks nice, but ..." and you're back at square one :)
10:58<keoz>oh, ok
10:59<andythenorth>PYTHONPATH2=../../lib/python2.6/site-packages
10:59<andythenorth>PYTHON2=python2.7
10:59<andythenorth>I’m defining those in Makefile.local
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10:59<andythenorth>but afaict make doesn’t have them in scope
10:59<@Alberth>(or rather square two, the basic idea stays the same usually, so you can do a lot of peeking at the previous solution, and making selective copies of useful parts)
11:00<@Alberth>what are those, environment variables?
11:00<keoz>Alberth: I thought it was more straightforward :p
11:00<@Alberth>keoz: it depends a lot on what you're doing
11:01<andythenorth>maybe Makefile.local isn’t used
11:01<keoz>No, I was asking because, having started to build some ottd patches, I sometime wonder what's the best way to deal with it
11:01<@Alberth>I usually get a 1 line fix right, the first time :)
11:01<andythenorth>yes, PYTHONPATH is an env var, PYTHON2 is just which python to use
11:01*andythenorth is lost without pm
11:01<@Alberth>did you export those env vars?
11:01<andythenorth>I don’t want them exported, just used in the command
11:02<andythenorth>export does a not-useful thing :)
11:02<@Alberth>ah right
11:02<andythenorth>yeah, Makefile.local is unused
11:02<andythenorth>that’s interesting
11:02<andythenorth>might as well not be there
11:03<andythenorth>also perplexing
11:03<@Alberth>http://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/make.html#Environment
11:03<@Alberth>hmm, yeah, using it may be useful too :p
11:04<andythenorth>is Makefile.local magical?
11:04<andythenorth>it’s the only place I can see the grf install location defined
11:04<@Alberth>not to make, afaik
11:05<@Alberth>I also always get lost in the default Makefile stuff of the newgrf projects
11:06<andythenorth>the grf installs to the correct place, which implies Makefile.local is used
11:06<andythenorth>but variables defined in Makefile.local are not used
11:06<andythenorth>(new variables)
11:08<andythenorth>http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/776.html
11:08<andythenorth>is how I feel about make
11:08<@Alberth>keoz: I tend to just try implement something, before I really know what to change exactly, so inevitably I make mistakes that should be reverted before committing. I find figuring out the feature, and getting changes in a sane order at the same time too compicated, hence I do the former first, and the latter second as a separate step
11:09<@Alberth>andythenorth: doing fish?
11:09<andythenorth>yes
11:10<@Alberth>:o 100 change sets to update :)
11:12*andythenorth been busy
11:12<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3660/ is what I have as Makefile*
11:13<andythenorth>interesting
11:13<andythenorth>I have Makefile.local, hgignored
11:13<@Alberth>where the fish-source-?? is something weird, by the looks of it
11:13<andythenorth>yeah, dunno what that is
11:14<@Alberth>Makefile.local is in .hgignore indeed
11:14<andythenorth>maybe I just need to include it
11:15<andythenorth>I dunno
11:15<andythenorth>I always worry about doing makefile changes wrong
11:15<andythenorth>but if it works...
11:16<andythenorth>works
11:16<@Alberth>"working" and "right" are two different things, where the latter implies the former, but not the other way around :p
11:17<@Alberth>yay
11:17<@Alberth>sometimes magic is useful :)
11:18<andythenorth>this isn’t magic, just includes :)
11:18<andythenorth>bundles server will now hate me even more
11:18<@Alberth>it loves you in 1:11, it seems
11:19<andythenorth>so it does
11:21<andythenorth>FISH is now prepared for NML 0.4.0 :P
11:24*Alberth hands out the "ready for NML 0.4.0" sticker for the FISH project
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11:45<Nemoder>anyone else find it difficult to move the view around when zoomed out all the way? zoomed out once or twice and it's normal but all the way seems to apply some kind of acceleration that throws it all over the place
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11:48<frosch123>it's not acceleration
11:48<frosch123>it's lag
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11:49<Nemoder>ah so it skips frames but keeps tracking input
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11:51<Nemoder>it'd weird then that i can use the map window for navigation when zoomed out and it's smooth
11:51<Nemoder>but if i hold right click on the main window it jumps around
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11:58<@Alberth>map window doesn't draw a zillion sprites
12:01<frosch123>i think it's like 24fps in movies vs. 60fps in games
12:01<frosch123>you do not notice the lag, if you are not in control
12:07<Nemoder>no i mean, left clicking in the map window and dragging it around to move the main view is smooth when right clicking main view is not
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12:10<@Alberth>yeah, we are too
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12:13<andythenorth>let’s give some ships smoke
12:14<@Alberth>+1
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12:19<McxCZE>Hi guys need another help.
12:19<McxCZE>I have a frodus script which after power failure automatically starts TTD and loads the save, works briliantly
12:20<McxCZE>Anyway its picked clean, eg. I have the same map and everything but there is no corporation...
12:20<frosch123>andythenorth: have you tried the electric spawning model?
12:20<andythenorth>no but I can
12:20<frosch123>i wonder whether spawning a single effect every now and then looks interesting with smoke
12:21<andythenorth>hmm
12:21<andythenorth>seems I lost my changes
12:21<andythenorth>must have done hg wrong
12:22<keoz>before doing doubtful things, you should fastly do a little hg diff > temp.patch
12:22<McxCZE>Any tip guys ?
12:22<andythenorth>I tried hg shelve
12:25<keoz>didn't know that one
12:25<keoz>oh yes, i get it :p
12:27<andythenorth>saving a diff shouldn’t be a thing in a proper vcs
12:27<andythenorth>it’s a redneck solution :D
12:28<Nemoder>McxCZE: if you load the map manually is it still blank or is it not getting saved at all?
12:28<@Alberth>andythenorth: patch queues and rebasing can all lose changes
12:28<@Alberth>hg evolve should not afaik
12:28<@Alberth>but I never seriously tried that
12:29<McxCZE>Yes
12:29<McxCZE>I load the map and it is blank.
12:29<McxCZE>Like the map is the same way it used to be, but actually without corporation.
12:29<Nemoder>if you build stuff, save it manually and load it manually is it blank?
12:29<McxCZE>cities and everything is there. but corporations are all gone.
12:30<McxCZE>Saved it manually, and load it starting frodus
12:30<McxCZE>frodus saves the map everytime you exit the TTD.
12:30<McxCZE>And load the map everytime you starrt.
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12:31<@Alberth>maybe frodus is doing something weird?
12:31<andythenorth>frosch123: afaict, with EFFECT_SPAWN_MODEL_ELECTRIC set, sparks are shown
12:31<andythenorth>even though create_effect uses EFFECT_SPRITE_STEAM
12:31<andythenorth>might be my mistake, but I double checked
12:31<McxCZE>yeah, Anyway I will try to solve it tomorrow. Have to do some work today. Thanks for tha help.
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12:32<andythenorth>nah, must be my mistake
12:32<andythenorth>fricking .orig files
12:32<andythenorth>my editor switches to them by default
12:34<keoz_>what's your editor ?
12:34<andythenorth>TextWrangler
12:35<keoz_>never heard
12:36<andythenorth>frosch123: the delay is too much with electric spawning model imo
12:36<andythenorth>it’s quite calming though :)
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12:38<frosch123>ok
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26757 /trunk/src/lang (afrikaans.txt catalan.txt) (2014-08-23 17:45:42 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 1 changes by telanus
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 1 changes by juanjo
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15:25<andythenorth>frosch123: is there any NO_EFFECT or similar?
15:25<andythenorth>seems I can’t provide an empty list in the switch
15:25<andythenorth>I could do more admin in my compile, just looking for a shortcut
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15:28<frosch123>there is both a no-spawn-model and a no-effect-sprite
15:29<frosch123>and you can also return 0 effects
15:29<frosch123>so, there are 3 ways to do nothing :p
15:29<frosch123>hmm, i forgot the 2nd method in nml though
15:31<frosch123>pushed
15:31<andythenorth>I couldn’t see it in the patch :)
15:31<andythenorth>I did check first :)
15:31<frosch123>EFFECT_SPAWN_MODEL_NONE is the uncool method
15:31<frosch123>EFFECT_SPRITE_NONE is the brute-force method
15:32<frosch123>returning 0 in the callback is my favorit
15:33*andythenorth tries returning 0
15:38<frosch123>you can also use the random bits for a certain black/white smoke ratio :p
15:39<frosch123>or use the motion counter for a pattern
15:39<frosch123>white - nothing - black - white - nothing - black - ...
15:39<frosch123>back-to-future colours are not yet possible though
15:40<andythenorth>:)
15:40<frosch123>i am worried V will add nyan-rainbows to the cat trains
15:40<andythenorth>I haven’t started on putting smoke out of sync yet :)
15:40<andythenorth>I have to unbreak nml again :(
15:40<MTsPony>hey frosch, hows the crash bug going
15:41<frosch123>there are many :p
15:41<MTsPony> the full animation switch one :p
15:42*andythenorth has no idea why pulling nml and running make install has broken it
15:42<frosch123>ah, that one, i only added the dmp info. then i did script text parameter stuff, and nml and docs and such
15:42<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3664/
15:42<frosch123>andythenorth: maybe you had my earlier diff applied, which caused conflicts with the pulled thing
15:42<andythenorth>this is when nmlc is called by make ^
15:42<andythenorth>I reverted before pulling
15:43<andythenorth>I can ‘nmlc fish.nml’ without problems
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15:45<frosch123>that does again not look like my nml
15:45<frosch123>are you on some weird branch?
15:45<andythenorth>what differs?
15:45<frosch123>it's an old python2 nml version
15:45<frosch123>not the current nml at all
15:46<andythenorth>what should I look for to know that?
15:46<frosch123>it errors on line 176 in main.py
15:46<frosch123>today that line is at line 195
15:46<MTsPony>ah ok thx frosch
15:46<frosch123>and has different syntax
15:47<andythenorth>how does everyone else build nml?
15:47<andythenorth>make?
15:47<andythenorth>make install?
15:47<frosch123>make runs the regression
15:47<frosch123>no need for that
15:47<frosch123>nml does not need compiling
15:47<frosch123>i do not install it either
15:47<andythenorth>so how does it get added to site-packages?
15:47<frosch123>just a symlink from /usr/local/bin to the checkout in my home folder
15:49<frosch123>installing is for package managers, i never do that with custom packages
15:49<andythenorth>ok I need to stop using make install, it breaks stuff
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16:02<andythenorth>motion_counter might be my friend
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16:40<andythenorth>done a ship with smoke in the right place
16:40<andythenorth>looks good
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17:11<@Alberth>gn
17:12<andythenorth>moi aussi
17:12<andythenorth>bye
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17:36<Eddi|zuHause>so, i can now make a steam engine emit black smoke while accelerating and white smoke while cruising?
17:39<frosch123>yes
17:40<frosch123>though i haven't yet seen how the aircraft smoke actually looks like on a train
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18:09<frosch123>night
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18:26<__ln__>http://www.iec.ch/worldplugs/map.htm
18:35<berndj-blackout>so i've got myself a little moneymaker network, taking advantage of a bunch of synergistic industries close together, but if i want to hulk out and take over the whole map, is it better to keep stations single-purpose?
18:38<Sylf>people take different approach to that problem
18:38<Sylf>some make a huge station that service many cargoes
18:39<Sylf>some do that, but use waypoints to dedicate some lines to some type of cargo, or different set of trains
18:40<Sylf>I myself keep all stations separate, single purposed. I find that easier to control the whole thing when I have 1000 trains
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19:02<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Aug 24 00:00:06 2014