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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-08-25

---Logopened Mon Aug 25 00:00:10 2014
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00:17<TruePika>Any known problems with Win64 multiplayer in 1.4.2? I'm getting a version mismatch, both the server and I are on it
00:17<TruePika>on 1.4.2, I don't know if the server is Win64
00:20<TruePika>a Mac client got in though, and IIRC that build has more problems than Windows
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00:39<Sylf>base OS doens't matter
00:40<Sylf>you can connect to a server running on windows from mac client or vise versa
00:41<Sylf>I play version 1.4.2 multiplayer all the time, so I'm not aware of any issues with version mismatch
00:41<Supercheese>Sylf: Regarding -- you prefer the slashes over dashes, I take it?
00:41<Sylf>yes, I do
00:42<Supercheese>k, I can go either way, but slashes it is
00:42<Supercheese>expect to see it in the next nightly build
00:42<Supercheese>and test to see if I messed it up :P
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08:49<Pikka>hast du
08:50<andythenorth>should put it in FIRS
08:50<andythenorth>industry: giant sheep
08:50<andythenorth>requires: grass
08:50<andythenorth>produces: press coverage
08:51<andythenorth>oh there was that thing with giant rabbits a few years ago too
08:51<andythenorth>and those camel spiders in Iraq
08:51<andythenorth>V453000: can you do a Giant Animals industry?
08:51<andythenorth>I am too busy making realistical thigns
08:51<Pikka>camel spiders
08:51<Pikka>requires: misleading camera angles
08:51<Pikka>produces: ???
08:53<V453000> ?
08:53<Pikka>such intellectual gentlemen
08:54-!-Brumi [] has joined #openttd
08:54<andythenorth>Pikka: produces facebook shares
08:54*andythenorth ponders various new cargos
08:55<Pikka>V453000, is this a dairy farm which produces neapolitan icecream?
08:55<andythenorth>“"The offender that was in the van got out and helped the police put his mate inside," Superintendent Jorgensen said."
08:55<andythenorth>V453000: yay, giant animals
08:56<andythenorth>Northern Territory’s dumbest criminals is a good list
08:58<V453000>just normal PigCow farm
08:59<andythenorth>nothing on forums today
08:59*andythenorth will have to fix newgrfs
09:00<Pikka>ooh, fix mine!
09:00<Pikka>NARS2 needs fixing
09:01<andythenorth>rm -r
09:01<Pikka>that'll do it, yeah
09:01<andythenorth>or mv nars* /dev/dull
09:01<andythenorth>bit harsh
09:01<andythenorth>still my favourite train grf, except for UKRS2
09:02<andythenorth>and Iron Horse
09:02<andythenorth>Iron Horse is one of my only grfs that I don’t hate
09:02<andythenorth>good job I don’t hate my kids like I hate my grfs
09:02<Pikka>I wish to complain that there are no horses in iron horse
09:02<andythenorth>Pikka: thanks
09:02<andythenorth>complaint is noted
09:02<V453000>there should at least be iron whores
09:02<Pikka>horses are a great feature
09:02<andythenorth>there will actually be horsies
09:03<andythenorth>I am just putting them off
09:03<andythenorth>needs animation and crap
09:03<Pikka>I've always thought if there's one thing OpenTTD really needs
09:03<Pikka>it's slower vehicles with smaller capacities
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09:03<andythenorth>just the one?
09:04<V453000>why that Pikka?
09:04<Pikka>because realism
09:05<V453000>any other logical reason? :D
09:06<Pikka>I mean, who doesn't want to start a game in 1800 and build 200 road vehicles to shift the coal from one coal mine, at 5 mph?
09:06<V453000>with default industries you already need to build tons of trains since they grow a lot
09:06<V453000>idk, anybody who plays multiplayer probably doesnt want to do that :D
09:06<andythenorth>Pikka: moar pipelines
09:06<Pikka>I don't know why
09:06<Pikka>it's really fun
09:06<andythenorth>just build a coal pipe
09:06<V453000>sure, especially for the cpu
09:07<Pikka>then you get trains, and have to build massive stations because all your trains are 50% locomotives
09:08<andythenorth>Pikka: you make it sound very attractive
09:08<andythenorth>I am now going to rethink my sets
09:09<andythenorth>I have been designing with availablility from 1870, but my most influential player always starts at 1900
09:09<andythenorth>due to the availability of large, fast vehicles
09:09<Pikka>1900's a reasonable earliest start date I think
09:09<andythenorth>now you make me think that maybe 1760 would be good
09:10<Pikka>people carrying baskets on their heads
09:10<Pikka>best vehicle concept ever
09:10<andythenorth>hand to hand
09:10<Pikka>or a cattle drive maybe
09:10<andythenorth>one piece of coal at a time
09:11<Pikka>I mean, this whole discussion is quite realistic, anyway
09:11<Pikka>there's no reason you can't have 300mph maglevs in 1760
09:12<andythenorth>no reason
09:12<andythenorth>openttd is about connecting stuff
09:12<andythenorth>not about the fricking trains :(
09:13<andythenorth>somebody should write a blog or something
09:13<Pikka>they should
09:13<Pikka>I have this principle
09:13<Pikka>that content is not gameplay
09:13<andythenorth>a slogan :)
09:14<Pikka>slogans are cool
09:14<V453000>everything is gameplay
09:14<andythenorth>can unite behind them
09:14<Pikka>but anyway, yes. if a game isn't fun with one train, one gun, one hat
09:14<Pikka>adding more trains, more guns and more hats isn't going to make it a better game
09:15<Pikka>train fever has over 50 vehicles, so it's sure to be a great game!
09:15<andythenorth>over 50!
09:15<Pikka>sez them
09:16<andythenorth>FIRS has more than 61 industries! *
09:16<andythenorth>* 62
09:16<andythenorth>definitely good
09:17<andythenorth>someone should start a thread
09:17<andythenorth>about bad features
09:20<V453000>to fish for valuable opinions
09:20<andythenorth>value onions
09:21<andythenorth>so are the rest of your bankers on holiday today?
09:21<andythenorth>or just UK?
09:24<Pikka>just UK
09:25<Pikka>although I got a day off today because my lecturer couldn't be bothered coming back from tasmania. Must be the woolly sheep.
09:26<andythenorth>also you can have the Queen’s birthday off
09:26<andythenorth>I can’t
09:26<andythenorth>it’s nice
09:27<Pikka>don't you get a queen's birthday?
09:27<andythenorth>the Queen does
09:27<andythenorth>we don’t have a holiday for it
09:27<Pikka>how rare
09:27<__ln__>we don't even have a queen, how about that
09:27<andythenorth>you are more loyal subjects
09:27<andythenorth>in Queensland
09:27<LadyHawk>in england it isn't a law that states the birthday is a national bank holiday
09:28<LadyHawk>some companies will give it you off.. others wont
09:28<Pikka>in Queensland we still think it's 1958, so yes.
09:28<LadyHawk>some you can take the day off... but first come first serve.. no more than X percentage of a section
09:29<andythenorth>I have never encountered that :o
09:29<Pikka>public holidays were great fun when I was a bus
09:30<andythenorth>do you miss being a bus?
09:30<Pikka>do I want to drive a sunday timetable, pick up no passengers, and get paid double time? yes I do.
09:30<Pikka>but not often
09:30<andythenorth>offsets, what larks
09:30<andythenorth>makes me wish for faster compile
09:31<andythenorth>Pikka: my advice, make all your ships the same size
09:31<andythenorth>also put them all in the same place on spritesheet
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09:31<Pikka>when you render, every sprite is the same size, and centred the same, so...
09:31<andythenorth>also don’t use two different sizes of spritesheet in your set
09:31<andythenorth>and have random contributors randomly moving things
09:32<Pikka>good times
09:32<Pikka>also DanMacK and his not-quite-right palettes for some reason :)
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09:33<andythenorth>I am used to fixing Dan’s stuff :)
09:33*andythenorth is hoping for the return of the Mack
09:37*andythenorth considers electricity
09:38<Eddi|zuHause><Pikka> I mean, who doesn't want to start a game in 1800 and build 200 road vehicles to shift the coal from one coal mine, at 5 mph? <-- that would be more satisfying if industry production was lower in those times...
09:39<andythenorth>low earnings
09:39<Pikka>although, if we're still talking game-design maxims, I'm also not a fan of universal scaling for the sake of producing the illusion of progress. ;)
09:40<andythenorth>it is a big words day today :)
09:40<andythenorth>can we say ludic?
09:40<andythenorth>ludic ludic ludic
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: but there's a reason why industrialisation and railway development went hand in hand
09:41<andythenorth>these big ships flicker a lot
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>one would probably not have happened without the other
09:42<Pikka>Eddi: if telling a historical story is your goal, then it's fine
09:42<Pikka>but as a fun gameplay device, doesn't do much for me.
09:43<andythenorth>Pikka: ooi, what keeps you playing a game? (cos GS doesn’t seem to float your boot)
09:43<Pikka>in OpenTTD? building a complex network is fun. I like supplies, they add to the complexity.
09:44<Pikka>I want to write an AI that builds supply networks though, so I don't have to play any more. :)
09:44<Pikka>watching the trains go by is nice
09:45<Pikka>I actually quite liked watching the towns grow with TaI
09:45<andythenorth>TaI is nice
09:45<Pikka>got new TaI ideas for pineapple. ;)
09:45<Pikka>with parameters, of course
09:45<andythenorth>I am kind of lost now without a GS goal
09:46<andythenorth>might be the curse of my generation :P
09:46<Pikka>so those who want to complain about aircraft being too OP can still build their megacities everywhere
09:46<andythenorth>apparently we are no good at open-ended play, and have to have a measurable target :P
09:46<Pikka>andythenorth, I tried to come up with a GS but ran out of ideas
09:47<andythenorth>I think you only really need one
09:47<andythenorth>and then just follow it through completely
09:47<andythenorth>I didn’t have one yet though
09:47<Pikka>that too
09:47<Eddi|zuHause><Pikka> watching the trains go by is nice <-- i tried watching an AI game, but after a while your fingers itch and you can't help but play along...
09:47<Pikka>I ran out of ideas at 0
09:47<Pikka>well, you build your own trains and watch them
09:47<andythenorth>I had one for The Grid. Build a power plant in n cities, deliver x amount of fuel. Within 30 years.
09:48<Pikka>until someone makes an AI that makes good train networks
09:48<andythenorth>Most of my ideas are cargo goals, and that’s just variation on existing theme
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: but when i play, i spend way too much time paused...
09:48<Pikka>andythenorth, also, industry-specific much?
09:48<Pikka>what if I have an industry set with no power plants? :D
09:48<andythenorth>I think industry-specific is fine in a GS
09:48<andythenorth>no power plants? Your GS broken
09:48<andythenorth>I would just lock it to FIRS tbh
09:49<andythenorth>I think this la-la-la-land fantasty that GS is agnostic to newgrf is total bollocks
09:49<Pikka>but what about fabulous pineapple TaI industries mk2?
09:49<andythenorth>every other game I’ve seen with scenarios has them tied to map + content
09:49<Eddi|zuHause><Pikka> until someone makes an AI that makes good train networks <-- maybe networks should be built more like fractals?
09:50<Pikka>Eddi, do it and report back!
09:50<Pikka>we'll be waiting.
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>you'll be waiting long.
09:51<V453000>btw andythenorth I am making an awesome port :P
09:52<andythenorth>is it?
09:52<Pikka>hmm, prots
09:52<Pikka>my one complaint about hearty darkness
09:52<Pikka>is the different prots look too similar. :D
09:53<andythenorth>there were more prot graphics
09:53<andythenorth>but I didn’t put them all in
09:53<Pikka>shameful display
09:53<andythenorth>you can tell bulk terminal from the others no? :|
09:53<Pikka>bulk terminal is good
09:53<andythenorth>it’s port vs. fishing port that is problems
09:54<Pikka>trading post is a bit
09:54<andythenorth>is a bit nothing good
09:54<andythenorth>not loving it
09:54<Pikka>they're good for network cores though
09:54<Pikka>because they produce supplies for their source industries
09:54<Pikka>well OP
09:54<andythenorth>for a long time
09:55<andythenorth>I stuck by the thing that ‘OpenTTD does not produce cargos from off-map'
09:55<andythenorth>and also
09:55<andythenorth>‘have more than one link between supply-using industry and supply source’
09:55<andythenorth>which are both bollocks it turns out
09:56<Pikka>I wonder if my supply model will be crap, then. :D
09:56<Pikka>I guess we'll find out
09:56<Pikka>in about 3 years
09:56<Pikka>when I get around to industries
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09:57<andythenorth>you have more than one link? :P
09:57<Pikka>I have a "supply factory" which produces supplies from goods
09:58<Pikka>and produces supplies only for primary industries, no manufacturing supplies
09:58<Pikka>just ENSP and FMSP
09:59<Pikka>so there's a reasonably complex chain to produce supplies
09:59<Pikka>but once you're producing them, you can take them wherever you like
10:00<andythenorth>I find I end up with too many
10:00<andythenorth>or not enough
10:00<andythenorth>never the right amount :P
10:00<Pikka>there's also multiple chains which produce goods, so getting the feed stock shouldn't be hard
10:01<Pikka>I'm going to limit the number of "natural" supply factories
10:01<Pikka>if you need more, you must build them
10:01<Pikka>this was the plan
10:01<Pikka>in february
10:01<Pikka>dunno when I'll get around to putting it into action :)
10:02<andythenorth>much plan
10:02*andythenorth has much plan
10:03<andythenorth>plan item 1: only make 8/8 vehicles with symmetrical sprites
10:04<andythenorth>plan item 2: everything is ‘dry cargo’ or ‘tanker'
10:04<andythenorth>or ‘pax'
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>why don't you just make everything green boxes?
10:05<Pikka>should be red boxes
10:05<Pikka>they go faster
10:05<andythenorth>we need liveries
10:05<Pikka>2cc red boxes!
10:06<andythenorth>without liveries, how will I ever make my comprehensive box set, with all box liveries ever used?
10:06<Pikka>real world sets don't need every livery ever used
10:06<Pikka>they just need every livery you've seen out of your window this morning
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>i think that's how the DACH set started :p
10:07<andythenorth>Pikka: very controversial that idea
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10:11<Pikka>I think it makes for a balanced set. 15 variants of the bog-standard EMU I ride to work, and, maybe, two steam engines for people who want to start earlier than 1987?
10:11<V453000>I think they just need every colour needed to make it fun
10:11<V453000>not necessarily livery :)
10:13<andythenorth>Pikka: Steamu
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10:20*andythenorth makes a Squid
10:21<andythenorth>there, done that
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11:05<erlehmann>i draw black-white icons for GNU unifont. is any of this of use for openttd stuff?
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12:03*andythenorth doesn’t trust hg merge :P
12:03<andythenorth>oh well
12:03<andythenorth>what could go wrong?
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12:19<andythenorth>lo Alberth
12:20<@Alberth>hi hi
12:20<@Alberth>all smoke is smokin' ?
12:21<frosch123>@seen funnel
12:21<@DorpsGek>frosch123: I have not seen funnel.
12:21<frosch123>he just left, was it a andy fake?
12:32<LordAro>this is most unfortunate
12:32<LordAro>I seem to be in France
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12:35<@Alberth>is the weather any good there?
12:35<LordAro>but then, it's raining across most of north western europe :)
12:36<@Alberth>no need to go to france for the weather :)
12:37<andythenorth>we fair-use on build menu sprites from TTD?
12:37*andythenorth is not too keen on that
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>what is the question?
12:39<andythenorth>I don’t know
12:39<andythenorth>I was about to release the Termite set, then I found those graphics
12:39<Eddi|zuHause><DorpsGek> frosch123: I have not seen funnel. <-- that basically means he never spoke...
12:40<andythenorth>GPL isn’t a pick-and-choose option
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you're worried about GPL-ability, then use opengfx as base?
12:42<andythenorth>might have to
12:47<@Alberth>sounds like a good solution
12:48<@Alberth>did original even have "upgrade" ?
12:49<Rubidium>for rail?
12:49<@Alberth>yeah, rail -> elrail
12:49<@Alberth>the other ones definitely not, at least
12:49<Rubidium>well... the "original" elrail is from 0.4.5
12:49<frosch123>the reused parts are mostly the border of the cursor and the tunnel and such
12:49<Rubidium>or somethere thereabout
12:50<frosch123>(at least it looks to me like that)
12:50<frosch123>so, if you want to have them fit in with the other sprites, you have no choice
12:50<@Alberth>frosch123: indeed, I just wondered whether the "upgrade" things are really original
12:50<Rubidium>oh sorry... 0.5.0
12:50<frosch123>no, the upgrade is not
12:51<frosch123>that is, the "arrow" part
12:51<andythenorth>I could redraw
12:51<Rubidium>the rail upgrade is from before that (0.3.2)
12:51<andythenorth>if I knew what was original…I could replace it
12:51<andythenorth>going to provide new depots anyway
12:52<frosch123>andythenorth: just check what is in baseset and what is in action5 gui sprites
12:52<frosch123>anyway, the most original part are the dimensions and the grey box of the arrow shape
13:02<andythenorth>tricky to replace that one :)
13:03<andythenorth>so stuff like the canals use that too o_O
13:03<frosch123>well, either you only support ogfx, or you reuse the original sprites :p
13:04<andythenorth>I think it has to be ogfx for now
13:09<andythenorth>that’s quite a big change :P
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13:11<andythenorth>how in hg do I do the equivalent of reverting a single commit in git?
13:11<frosch123>hai pm :)
13:13<@Alberth>hi pm
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13:42<@Alberth>hi hi
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26760 /trunk/src/lang (english_US.txt ukrainian.txt) (2014-08-25 17:45:29 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 1 changes by Supercheese
13:45<@DorpsGek>ukrainian - 62 changes by Strategy
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14:04<andythenorth>@seen snail
14:04<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: snail was last seen in #openttd 16 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour, 2 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <Snail> tbh I have too much fun to draw manually
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16:21<andythenorth>there’s an AI running in my game
16:21<andythenorth>interesting heuristic it’s using
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16:22<andythenorth>250hp railcar to haul 156t coal over a hill
16:22<andythenorth>bonus: 30 pax as well
16:22<andythenorth>it’s making money though :P
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16:34<@planetmaker>hehe, nice railcar. Which newgrf?
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16:47<andythenorth>Iron Horse
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17:37<Wolf01>'night all
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17:40<ortega>Hi, I have the following question. Is it possible to set up a network in such a manner: for example, I have two train stations outside of the towns A and B. In both towns there are several bus stations. A bus goes through all the bus stations and loads/unloads passengers and also goes to the train station to transfer passengers. At the same time the bus collects passengers from the other town that were brought in by the train
17:40<ortega>and gets them to their destination, i.e. a specific bus station.
17:41<@planetmaker>yes. If you play with cargodist enabled for passengers
17:41<ortega>I am using version 1.4.2 and "transfer" and "load if available" just loads the passengers that were unloaded. I thought that cargodist solved the problem but apparently it is not true
17:41<ortega>is it possible that cargodist is not enabled then?
17:41<@planetmaker>otherwise you should read-up the wiki on how to setup two-way transer
17:41<@planetmaker>but that requires additional station(s) compared to what you describe
17:41<ortega>yeah, I read that
17:42<ortega>it's the two-way feeder system or something like that
17:42<@planetmaker>cargodist is off by default. Dunno whether you changed that
17:42<ortega>it just seems cumbersome
17:42<ortega>ah I see
17:42<ortega>I just looked at the advanced settings and didn't find how to enable it
17:42<ortega>so I guessed it was on by default
17:43<ortega>Could you please tell me how to enable cargodist for passengers?
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17:45<@planetmaker>ortega: you likely need to change the display of settings in the very top of the adv. settings window
17:46<@planetmaker>set that to advanced or expert in both categories. then search for cargodist
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17:51<@planetmaker>it's possibly a bit confusing that it's not considered a basic setting. But well... it isn't :)
17:51<ortega>ah thanks, I think I've found it
17:56<ortega>Do you by any chance know whether something like an underground mode is being considered? So one could make an underground metro system since it's it is a bit difficult to build train stations in an already developed town
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>depends on your value of "considered"
18:03<+glx>it's considered to need an insane amount of work
18:04<+glx>or something like that
18:04<+glx>*require is probably a better word
18:04<ortega>yeah, I can imagine
18:05<ortega>I'm actually not even sure how people managed to modify that game to much. I assume the source code was never released.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>it was reverse engineered
18:06<+glx>ttdpatch work was more impressive
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it clearly got to its limits on what it could do
18:08<ortega>I actually never heard of ttdpatch
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>then don't bother anymore :)
18:10<ortega>haha okay
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 26 00:00:15 2014