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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-08-26

---Logopened Tue Aug 26 00:00:15 2014
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02:10<Sylf>Supercheese: the change looks good on my end
02:10<Supercheese>awesome
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02:17<andythenorth>monsoonal
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11:10<@Alberth>o/
11:18<Taede>o/
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11:39<luaduck>is there such a thing as having so many trees on the map that people start lagging / failing to connect
11:39<luaduck>someone turned the entirety of the map on reddit S1 into a forest and people are failing to connect
11:41<@Alberth>for a sufficiently insane map size, I can imagine that to happen
11:41<@Alberth>game must have been close to the breaking point though, I think
11:42<luaduck>we're 1024x2048 right now
11:42<@Alberth>that's not that insane :)
11:42<luaduck>so I don't know why it's so laggy
11:43<@Alberth>coop uses 1024x1024 as max size
11:43<luaduck>client lag, not server lag
11:43<@Alberth>sprite cache?
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11:43<luaduck>maybe
11:43<luaduck>I'm not too laggy
11:43<luaduck>was a bit slow on initial map load
11:43<luaduck>lots of people are complaining about slowdowns though
11:44<@Alberth>newer machines aren't that fast any more, since manufacturers concentrate on greenness
11:45<luaduck>I'm on an i7
11:45<luaduck>people on i5's are complaining
11:45<@Alberth>also people buy machines with lots of cores, which is mostly useless with openttd
11:45<luaduck>I doubt an i5 is going to be that much more sad
11:45*Alberth doesn't knwo
11:45<@Alberth>*know
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11:46<luaduck>I'll make a save of the map to reflect on
11:46<luaduck>need to reset the map really, this is silly
11:46<@Alberth>one of the problems is that people have to keep up with the server, but the server has actually less to do than a client
11:47<@Alberth>so if you have a fast server, the clients must be even faster
11:55<keoz>Just rewrite all the multiplayer architecture.
11:55<keoz>What are you waiting for ? :)
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12:00<@Alberth>has been tried, doesn't work
12:01<@Alberth>unless you give up multiplayer
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12:04<@Alberth>hi andy
12:04<andythenorth>hi hi
12:05<andythenorth>so how would Iron Horse users learn about Termite?
12:05<andythenorth>popping up a red-box message on game start would be very annoying
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12:07<@Alberth>add newobjects with an advertising sign :p
12:08<andythenorth>add an advert vehicle to buy menu :P
12:08<@Alberth>add a little extra something which is only available if you also have termite
12:08<@Alberth>display additional text in the firs industries window
12:09<andythenorth>add a plane with a banner?
12:09<andythenorth>buy ads on tt-forums?
12:10<@Alberth>extend the web frontend for distributing favorite newgrf combinations
12:11<@Alberth>have a screenshot competition for iron horse + termite
12:11<@Alberth>or rather coopetition :p
12:12*andythenorth wonders what ‘dependencies’ do in banananaans
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12:13<keoz>andythenorth add a plane with a banner? <== i like that one
12:13<@Alberth>I think they cause other stuff to be added when you select something. It's used for ai/game scripts that need libraries
12:14<@Alberth>make something for a 3-year old, and forget about it
12:14<keoz>That's it. Like my GS using Zuu's SuperLib.
12:15<keoz>Musa is better to define dependencies though. IIRC, Bananas interface only allow linking to last versions.
12:17<@Alberth>write a mega good game script that requires termite
12:17<keoz>Why would you enforce using Termite, anyway ? There are other nice tracksets, like NuTracks.
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12:19<keoz>Ok. New french government. Announced now.
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12:50<andythenorth>if I wanted to enforce using Termite it would just be in Iron Horse ;)
12:59<@Alberth>add it, and add a parameter to disable it :p
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13:05<andythenorth>:P
13:06<andythenorth>apparently that is the Wrong Thing to Do
13:06<andythenorth>even though it’s my preferred option :P
13:11<keoz>I still didn't try this termite stuff. Is it better than NuTracks ?
13:11<@Alberth>of course it is
13:11<andythenorth>everything is
13:11<andythenorth>including no track grf
13:11<@Alberth>it's awesome
13:11<andythenorth>everything is awesome
13:13<@Alberth>default opengfx monorail is quite broken :)
13:14<andythenorth>not awesome
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13:14<@Alberth>but what's the point of using a track grf? just nice eye candy?
13:15<keoz>Sure.
13:15<keoz>Eyecandy is good.
13:15<@Alberth>tbh, I cannot be bothered much about it :)
13:16<andythenorth>within reason, more track types = more interesting route building
13:16<@Alberth>I just like to build networks with smoothly running trains
13:16<keoz>I wasn't also initially. Just builded up the biggest possible networks.
13:16<keoz>And then,
13:16<keoz>and then,
13:16<keoz>and then ...
13:16<andythenorth>Iron Horse metro has insane pax capacity, but requires dedicated tracks
13:16<keoz>I discovered Badger's screenshots :)
13:17<@Alberth>oops :p
13:17<andythenorth>what has been seen can’t be unseen :P
13:17<keoz>And hence a completely other way to play OTTD. Not big networks, but pretty networks.
13:18<@Alberth>I also don't build really big networks, I hardly ever reach LLRR
13:18<keoz>I think I can't add more GRF's in my list. Limit reached :p
13:19<keoz>(And still worst. I don't stop reloading them to try new stuff/new versions. I know. It's bad. :p )
13:26*andythenorth fixes Termite costs
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13:53<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember ever building LLRR
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>if at all, i build LRLR
13:53<luaduck>is there a list of company colours available
13:54<luaduck>ie RGB values
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>i'd look in src/table
13:54<luaduck>trying to match company colours to the data that the admin port spits out
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>but newgrfs may change them
13:54<luaduck>the defaults are fine
13:55<luaduck>actually if that's the case
13:55<luaduck>then surely opengfx are setting them
13:56<luaduck>there's palette.h but that's not very clear
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13:59<Taede>are you just trying to derive colourname from the number?
13:59<Wolf01>hi hi
13:59<@Alberth>hi hi
14:00<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: why not LLRR ?
14:01<@Alberth>never considered LRLR, wondering why that's better
14:11<Rubidium>'cause that's how DB does it?
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14:13<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: it goes more natural with merging lines and separating types of traffic
14:14<@Alberth>you merge to one of the L, or to both?
14:15<@Alberth>(or R, of course)
14:16<@Alberth>Rubidium: oh, never considered that one would want to copy RL, stupid me
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14:52<luaduck>Taede: yup
14:52<luaduck>(sorry, broke for tea)
14:55<Taede>https://github.com/Xaroth/libottdadmin2/blob/master/libottdadmin2/enums.py <-- last 20 lines or so
14:55<Taede>that and a small function in soaputils is what soap uses to print it in irc
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14:59<@Alberth>andythenorth: termite pops up when you look for "iron" in the newgrf download, that's quite advertise-y :)
15:01<andythenorth>spose :)
15:01<andythenorth>dunno if you’d know what it was though :)
15:02<@Alberth>It says "rail types for iron horse train set"
15:03<@Alberth>it's a pity we don't have pictures
15:04<luaduck>Taede, wouldn't happen to know if there's a list of actual colour values?
15:06<Taede>not that i've come across
15:06<@Alberth>looks like the 16 colours of the universe :p
15:22<luaduck>well I'm stumped
15:22<luaduck>I can't see it in the opengfx sprite list
15:22<luaduck>nor can I see any RGB codes in the openttd sauce
15:25<luaduck>thinking about it, openttd source must have the colours in data somewhere for the graph
15:26<@Alberth>it may load them from the base set or so
15:28<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/texts/ttdpalette.txt <- you can find the colour values in there
15:28<frosch123>there is not a single company colour, but a gradient of 8
15:30<luaduck>are those in SDL color coding or something
15:31<frosch123>the palette at the beginning uses standard rgb codes in html notation
15:31<frosch123>the recolour palettes use hex indices into that palette
15:31<luaduck>interesting
15:33<frosch123>e.g. "pale green" company colour uses colours "60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67", which in rgb means "#103418 #20482C #386048 #4C7458 #60886C #78A488 #98C0A8 #B8DCC8"
15:33<luaduck>wait so I have to combine those colours or what
15:34<frosch123>look for "First Company Color" in that file
15:34<luaduck>yup I'm looking at it now
15:34<frosch123>you will find something that defines 8 two-digit hex-numbers for each colour
15:34<frosch123>those hex-numbers are indices into the palette at the top
15:34<@Alberth>trains etc have shades, so you have different gradients for different shades
15:34<luaduck>ok so all those values refer to a palette
15:35<luaduck>what I'm after is the colours that the company colour selector uses
15:35<frosch123>that also uses shades
15:35<frosch123>doesn't it use the bus sprite?
15:35<luaduck>oh this is going to be fun
15:35<luaduck>the GUI colour
15:35<luaduck>I don't need individual vehicle colours
15:36<Wolf01>how do I forbid trains to pass on a waypoint?
15:36<luaduck>it's just so that I can format the colours outside the game
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15:36<frosch123>the, the title bar of windows uses colour 4 (starting from 0) of each gradient
15:37<frosch123>GfxFillRect(r.left + 2, r.top + 2, r.right - 2, r.bottom - 2, _colour_gradient[_company_colours[owner]][4]); <- from DrawCaption
15:37<luaduck>awesome
15:37<luaduck>that's what I was after
15:40<@Alberth>this->colours[numd] = _colour_gradient[c->colour][6]; <-- graph_gui.cpp, line 599
15:41<@Alberth>Wolf01: you don't afaik, you can only add another way point they must pass :(
15:42<@Alberth>unless you use incompatible tracks for the original waypoint :p
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15:44<Eddi|zuHause><Wolf01> how do I forbid trains to pass on a waypoint? <-- if you use a station instead of a waypoint, they try to avoid it if it's not their current order
15:45<Wolf01>np, just moved one tile away the station
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15:53<Wolf01>nice, ottd is the only game I own which automatically switches to the headset when I connect it
16:01<andythenorth>boring forum is boring
16:01*andythenorth fiddles with pixels
16:01<andythenorth>maybe release something else
16:01<andythenorth>haven’t released anything for ages
16:03<Rubidium>Wolf01: I doubt that's OpenTTD's doing ;)
16:14<andythenorth>someone should list some more BAD FEATURES
16:25<frosch123>trains
16:26<frosch123>they make rv, ships and aircraft look bad
16:26<frosch123>so the actual issue is with trains, isn't it?
16:27*Rubidium has found a nice paper for the next person wanting to offload stuff to the server: http://www.revistaie.ase.ro/content/68/01%20-%20Olteanu,%20Tapus.pdf
16:27<andythenorth>ha ha, symmetrical trains are so easy to draw
16:27<andythenorth>like shooting fish in a barrel
16:28<andythenorth>FISH is not like shooting fish in a barrel
16:28<frosch123>Rubidium: is that about connecting 1M cell phones to form a ottd server? :p
16:29<Rubidium>no, about offloading stuff from your slow mobile phone to the fast server
16:30<Rubidium>basically the only thing where it makes sense is: running AIs. Doing the simulation on the server is discredited in about one sentence
16:30<frosch123>ah, they are developing an x server for cellphones
16:31<frosch123>oh noes, i didn't dare to search for "openttd" in the document ... now i did
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16:50<andythenorth>how much should wagons cost to run?
16:50<andythenorth>also buy :P
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16:54<andythenorth>V453000: ^ ?
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16:56<andythenorth>bah
16:56<andythenorth>nobody cares :)
16:57<frosch123>my unwritten blog about costs says: low purchase costs, high running costs
16:58<andythenorth>I might scale purchase cost by capacity
16:58<andythenorth>and run cost by wagon speed
16:58<frosch123>with an initial loan of say 200£ you should be able to build 15 trains for 5 tile length
16:58<andythenorth>and that will do
16:59<frosch123>difficulty is controlled by running costs
16:59<frosch123>boredom is controlled by purchase costs
16:59<andythenorth>hmm
16:59<andythenorth>you get 3 IH trains for £200k
17:00<frosch123>how long do you have to read irc on fast forward till you can buy the 4th?
17:00<andythenorth>depends how profitable your route is :P
17:01<frosch123>the route that you can build with the other 300k starting loan
17:01<andythenorth>interesting test :)
17:01<andythenorth>my IH games did not have money as a problem
17:02<andythenorth>but I only play SV or NCG :P
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17:02<andythenorth>I didn’t have to ffwd much
17:03<andythenorth>frosch123: you have a blag?
17:03<andythenorth>o_O
17:03<frosch123>an unwritten one
17:09*andythenorth bed time :)
17:09<andythenorth>bye
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17:40<Wolf01>'night
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17:43<Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> with an initial loan of say 200£ you should be able to build 15 trains for 5 tile length <-- 15 sounds a little high. also, i'd say not ALL trains should cost that low. a cheap low-end alround engine should cost that low, but a specialized high power or fast engine doesn't need to be purchased with the starting loan
17:44<frosch123>yah, maybe 8 is also fine :p
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17:50<Nemoder>is day length hard coded?
17:53<frosch123>that depends on your latitude
17:53<frosch123>in some places it varies a lot
17:54<Nemoder>:|
18:11<frosch123>night
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 27 00:00:18 2014