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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-08-28

---Logopened Thu Aug 28 00:00:21 2014
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04:20<andythenorth>Pikkaphone: lo bob
04:21<andythenorth>and AV9, it’s the worst thing ever
04:21<Pikkaphone>you have hoss?
04:21<andythenorth>I am actually offended that you even considered making it
04:21<Pikkaphone>is it? It doesn't have ranges
04:22*andythenorth could never run a blag with comments on it
04:22<andythenorth>people would be wrong on my internet
04:22<andythenorth>also I have hoss
04:22<Pikkaphone>people can be wrong
04:23<andythenorth>also brake vans
04:23<andythenorth>they’re wrong
04:23<Pikkaphone>mmmm, hoss
04:24<Pikkaphone>brake vans are a bad feature
04:24<Pikkaphone>cabeese are fine though
04:24<andythenorth>I have cabeesed my brakes
04:24<andythenorth>at least in code
04:24<Pikkaphone>I have fixed your doorbell from the ringing
04:25<Pikkaphone>there is no charge
04:25<andythenorth>it has been sticky
04:25<andythenorth>I keep having to talk myself out of ‘ideas’ :P
04:25<andythenorth>latest bad feature: wagons go slower if no brake van
04:25<Pikkaphone>such as?
04:25<andythenorth>bad feature
04:25<Pikkaphone>but ai
04:25<Pikkaphone>and bad feature
04:26<Pikkaphone>brake van tycoon
04:26<andythenorth>also more narrow gauge wagons, with different speed limits
04:26<andythenorth>bad feature
04:26<andythenorth>45mph -> 55mph, who cares?
04:27<andythenorth>just auto-replace management bollocks
04:27<Pikkaphone>not me
04:27<andythenorth>that makes two of us
04:27<andythenorth>so that’s everybody
04:27<Pikkaphone>pretty much
04:28*andythenorth deletes cruft
04:28<andythenorth>that FISH set, so crufty
04:28<Pikkaphone>also it means drawing more wogans
04:29<Pikkaphone>narrow gauge ships
04:29<Pikkaphone>with brake vans
04:31<andythenorth>Norris ship
04:31<Pikkaphone>Where's heqboots? I photographed some handy work barges the other day.
04:31<andythenorth>heqboots is an idea I considered
04:31<andythenorth>small problem of ‘not useful'
04:32<andythenorth>also there should be a much bigger range of vehicles
04:32<andythenorth>whilst also being a much smaller range of vehicles
04:32<andythenorth>so that I can fit every niche
04:32<andythenorth>I am really in agreement with your idea that niches are over-rated in TTD, and I would like more vehicles for my niches
04:32<V453000>wtf are you considering again andy :D
04:34<V453000>sounds good
04:35<andythenorth>V453000: you would enjoy the comments on pikka’s blag
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04:35<andythenorth>except there’s one from V453000 who is rubbish
04:41<V453000>the comments do not seem very interesting
04:41<V453000>just shows that people are a bunch of spoilt fuckers who think one is going to upkeep their grfs forever and in ALL the possible ways
04:42<andythenorth>I’ll do that!! me! me!
04:42<V453000>admittedly making UKRS/NARS2 open sourced might be a great idea Pikkaphone
04:43<Pikkaphone>I've said anyone who wants to use those graphics can, v
04:43<V453000>oh, sorry then :)
04:43<abculatter_2>So, I had an idea for a new climate, wanted to see how feasible it would be before signing up for an account to post it: Interplanetary, which would, instead of water terrain, there would be 'Space' or 'Void' tiles. These would, if possible, count as a huge number of tiles when calculating distance for profit, but can only be traversed by expensive spacecraft, which would replace boats with spaceship yards replacing shipyards.
04:43<abculatter_2>Additionally, land would generate in circles of (usually) one type of terrain, which would each have their own industries and requirements for town growth. (For example, a 'Terran' terrain would have agriculture, water, and oxygen, as well as many large cities and end-of-the-line industries that consume but don't produce, but have few processing and mineral-type industries.)
04:43<Pikkaphone>nars is mostly dan's work anyway
04:44<abculatter_2>As an example
04:44<Pikkaphone>also, uranium?
04:44<abculatter_2>Yes uranium
04:44<andythenorth>I suspect NARS 2 + Canset stuff might just show up as hosses
04:44<abculatter_2>I support uranium
04:44<andythenorth>but without all that realism bollocks
04:44<Pikkaphone>yes but yeti uranium?
04:45<andythenorth>radioactive snowman
04:45<V453000>what is up with yeti uranium? :D
04:45*andythenorth should go to the workings
04:45<andythenorth>important things to do
04:45<Pikkaphone>cargo classes, apparently
04:45<andythenorth>always troubles
04:45<Pikkaphone>good luck andy
04:45<andythenorth>I shall
04:45<andythenorth>I shall luck good
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04:46<Pikkaphone>abculatter: I think similar things have been suggested, go and check the forums :)
04:48<V453000>there is some wtf with cargoes in general with yeti
04:48<V453000>only nuts seems to work, even with the default labels
04:49<abculatter_2>Also, is there a mod for making industry in general a bit more complex?
04:50<V453000>yeti/firs/ecs/pikka basic industries
04:51<abculatter_2>So many acronyms
04:52<abculatter_2>I don't see YETI on the wiki mod list?
04:53<Pikkaphone>few vehicle sets define a vehicle for that cargo label.
04:54<Pikkaphone>it's probably best to add another... Then for vehicles, exclude hazardous from the vehicles you don't want carrying uranium.
04:54<V453000>wiki mod list
04:55<V453000>mhm perhaps bulk
04:55<V453000>but no set has uranium sprites anyway
04:56<Pikkaphone>they still have to be able to carry it
04:56<Pikkaphone>that's the whole point of cargo classes
04:56<V453000>abculatter_2: that page is quite outdated/incomplete :)
04:56<V453000>e.g. NUTS trains arent even there
04:57<abculatter_2>Figured as much, I'm looking through the in-game list now
04:58<V453000>that is considerably better :P
04:59<Pikkaphone>someone suggests a newgrf review "magazine" every now and then
04:59<Pikkaphone>but no one ever sticks with it
05:00<V453000>bananas would have to get that, upkeeping any secondary site would be hell
05:00<V453000>like a store inside of openttd
05:01<Pikkaphone>a review blog could work
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05:02<Pikkaphone>it's not like newgrfs come out a hundred a day
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05:02<V453000>sure but inside of the game you could easily just click to download it etc
05:04<Pikkaphone>ottd:// protocol
05:04<Pikkaphone>install newgrf from your browser
05:04<V453000>or that
05:04<Pikkaphone>great feature
05:04<Pikkaphone>doesn't it
05:05<V453000>go make it :D
05:06<abculatter_2>Who is the author of YETI?
05:07<V453000>it is written there?
05:08<abculatter_2>It is a collaborative work? Or open-source? What does YETI even stand for?
05:09<abculatter_2>Yeah I'm looking at that site
05:09<V453000>1 author, many translator
05:09<V453000>license is CC BY SA I believe
05:09<abculatter_2>Ah, okay.
05:10<Pikkaphone>what a ridiculous license
05:10<abculatter_2>I take it 'manager' is the author?
05:10<V453000>Pikkaphone: does its job doesnt it? :d
05:11<Pikkaphone>does it?
05:11<V453000>dunno had no lawsuits yet :D
05:13<Pikkaphone>something to do this weekend, then
05:13<V453000>why is CC BY SA that bad then?
05:13<Pikkaphone>they're all silly
05:13<V453000>what do you mean
05:14<Pikkaphone>if you're not suing anyone
05:14<V453000>well sure but the people who would like to eventually like to use my work cant just go and assume that I wont sue them :P
05:15<Pikkaphone>also, the world seems to think any cc license means "put the license info at the bottom and you can use this photo for anything"
05:16<V453000>doesnt really matter, I dont need to disallow anything
05:16<Pikkaphone>if my recent uni experience is anything to go by
05:16<@peter1138>NC/ND is the stupid one.
05:17<Pikkaphone>your face is the stupid one
05:19<Pikkaphone>but yeah, people use ND photos in presentations and videos all the time
05:19<Pikkaphone>silly people, silly license
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05:27<abculatter_2>Soooo, just finished reading , I like the 'bring workers for more yield but you don't need them' bit.
05:28<Pikkaphone>yeti is pro
05:29<Pikkaphone>32bpp and all
05:30<@peter1138>Until we next change how 32bpp works
05:30<Pikkaphone> fiendish!
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05:32<Pikkaphone>also, replace newgrf with nogrf, in squirrel
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05:35<@peter1138>don't forget the 3d models
05:37<Pikkaphone>oops, I did
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05:43<abculatter_2>Uh, how do I download this here?
05:45<abculatter_2>Didn't know you were supposed to check the little checkbox to download stuff, would be nice if that had a label or something...
05:46<andythenorth>there’s a little checkbox? :o
05:46<andythenorth>might be browser specific
05:46<andythenorth>no checkbox for me
05:47<andythenorth>also can someone just 32bpp all my stuff, ta
05:48<abculatter_2>Oh, uh, I meant in-game
05:49<abculatter_2>I probably should have specified that
05:50<abculatter_2>I really, REALLY wish there was a way to increase the interface size/zoom in the interface... Unless there is a way that I haven't found?
05:53<Pikkaphone>andythenorth : just increase the colour depth in photogimp? 32bpp achieved. :D
05:54<Pikkaphone>is dan still talking about drawing ez?
05:56<Pikkaphone>that tasmanian sheep
05:56<Pikkaphone>didn't even break the record, in the end
05:57<Pikkaphone>shameful display
06:00<andythenorth>Pikkaphone: sometimes we smoke some crack and talk about drawing 2x
06:00<andythenorth>I even considered redrawing FIRS @2x
06:00<andythenorth>and as I said to a passing flying pig, the work would be worth it
06:01<andythenorth>I have enough to do retina-ising all the internet images in my life :P
06:01<Pikkaphone>wot larks
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06:02<@peter1138>abculatter_2, there's a way, by editing the config file
06:03<abculatter_2>Please continue
06:11<abculatter_2>peter1138, which setting do I change in the config file?
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06:48<@peter1138>fonts and font sizes
06:50<abculatter_2>Set it to what? There's no default value for any of the font sizes in the config.
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06:52<abculatter_2>And both 'true' and '1' caused an error
06:54<Pikka>set the font to the name of a font on your computer
06:54<Pikka>set the size to the point size you want
06:55<Pikka>10-12 is "normal size" text, higher numbers are bigger
06:58<abculatter_2>What are the generic 'small_size' settings?
06:58<abculatter_2>And what is Mono size?
06:59<Pikka>by default, I believe, OpenTTD uses the character sprites out of the base set if no font is specified, so it's no size as such
07:00<abculatter_2>"no size as such"?
07:00<Pikka>it's using sprites, rather than a truetype font
07:01<Pikka>somewhat out of date I think, but it gives you the idea
07:01<abculatter_2>Yes I already found that page
07:02<abculatter_2>Oh, just realized I misread a part of it
07:02<abculatter_2>Okay now things make sense
07:02<abculatter_2>Still dont know what mono_size is
07:02<Pikka>me neither
07:04<abculatter_2>Hmmm... Is there a place that I can reliably find font files on my computer, or should I just download one?
07:04<Pikka>I use Calibri
07:04<Pikka>if you want to see a list, probably the easiest way is to start up the word processor of your choice
07:04<Pikka>a list of what you have, that is
07:05<abculatter_2>Well yeah, but I meant where are those fonts actually stored? Since the wiki seems to say that you need the file path
07:05<Pikka>you don't
07:05<Pikka>that's out of date afaia
07:07<abculatter_2>So there's a default font storage folder somewhere?
07:07<Pikka>possibly. but if you just give it the font name it will ask your OS and it will find it, in the same way your word processor does.
07:08<Pikka>I could be wrong, try it and see.
07:08<abculatter_2>Yup, that worked
07:08<abculatter_2>That's interesting
07:12<abculatter_2>I can read things!
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07:21<@peter1138>mono_size is... the size of mono-spaced text. Yes, it's a bit odd.
07:22<Pikka>where is it used though
07:22<@peter1138>it's used for readmes and licenses i think
07:22<Pikka>oh, right
07:22<@peter1138>yeah, the bit nobody reads anyway
07:25<abculatter_2>Trucks are better then trains for uneven terrain, right?
07:29<abculatter_2>So, then the only really option when you have uneven terrain is to just deal with your trains going ridiculously slow?
07:30<@peter1138>Well you could flatten it.
07:30<@peter1138>Or use the so-called "realistic" acceleration model;
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07:33<V453000>it should be called normal or not-retarded or something
07:33<V453000>realistic implies something stupid
07:35<andythenorth>just use bigger trains
07:35<andythenorth>more power
07:35<andythenorth>how good is our physics?
07:35<andythenorth>do DPUs make any difference to train handling?
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07:37<Eddi|zuHause>nothing in this game should be called "realistic"
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07:40<abculatter_2>Does horsepower increase uphill speed in the non-realistic model?
07:42<@planetmaker>power doesn't increase max speed. But it increases the force which can be exerted
07:43<abculatter_2>Is there a way to extend a train station without just adding another station to one end?
07:43<@planetmaker>with sufficient power the max speed won't be changed when going uphill.
07:43<abculatter_2>And I know
07:43*andythenorth diverted by
07:44<b_jonas>abculatter_2: you can just demolish the station and build a new one in its place
07:44<Pikka>or build a new longer station over the top
07:46<abculatter_2>Ugh, it costs the full station cost?
07:46<abculatter_2>Why doesn't it just automatically merge the two stations into one?
07:46<Pikka>it does
07:46<Pikka>if you "just add another station to one end"
07:47<Pikka>if you overbuild, you're rebuilding the tiles so you get to pay for them again
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07:47<abculatter_2>But there will still be two little houses
07:48<abculatter_2>They are important.
07:48<Pikka>well, you get to pay for your aesthetics
07:48<Pikka>if you want a big roof over two tracks, you don't get to pay for just half of it
07:50<andythenorth>it’s only money
07:51<andythenorth>there’s loads of it
07:51*andythenorth is perplexed by people worrying about costs
07:51<andythenorth>it’s a route-building game, not an economic game :D
07:51*andythenorth should start a blag
07:52<abculatter_2>More money = more trains
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07:54<andythenorth>more trains = more money
07:54<andythenorth>I see where you’re going with that
07:54<andythenorth>a virtuous circle
07:54<abculatter_2>Yes exactly
07:54<abculatter_2>And more money means more points
07:55<abculatter_2>More points means winning
07:55<abculatter_2>Even if you're the referee
07:57<@peter1138>winning? what's that?
07:57<abculatter_2>I dunno, but I heard it's supposed to be good or something?
08:01<andythenorth>GS is winning
08:01<andythenorth>I won at vanilla TTD once
08:01<andythenorth>I think
08:01<andythenorth>it involves some shenanigans
08:01<andythenorth>aggressively replacing vehicles
08:01<andythenorth>and closing low-profit routes
08:01<Pikka>with the controversial opinion "buildings are buildings"
08:02<andythenorth>it is rare
08:02<andythenorth>I have a stack of Bombay photos intended for ‘tropic building renewal'
08:02<andythenorth>a project I fear will be unstarted before my death
08:03<Pikka>that lovely brown-green brisbane river water, too
08:03<__ln__>after your death you'll have much more time as you're not expected to e.g. go to work
08:04<andythenorth>I shall look forward to that
08:04<@peter1138>don't be too sure on that
08:05<andythenorth>meetings meetings meetings probably
08:06<abculatter_2>Is there a way to make a station begin accumulating materials before a train arrives?
08:06<Pikka>turn off that feature in the advanced settings, whatever it's called
08:07<andythenorth>only deliver cargo when a train is waiting
08:07<andythenorth>or whatever
08:07<Pikka>so traincentric
08:07<andythenorth>it’s broken with autorefittings anyway
08:08<andythenorth>or cdist
08:08<andythenorth>or both
08:08<Pikka>you have to kickstart the routes sometimes
08:08<andythenorth>autorefittings is or was quite broken
08:09<andythenorth>I proved it with a savegame and everything
08:09<andythenorth>not even FUD
08:10<abculatter_2>Why isn't there just a button in the station GUI for turning on/off what the station accepts from nearby industries?
08:10<Pikka>because you didn't code such a feature yet
08:11<Pikka>have you just discovered why the "station doesn't begin accumulating materials" feature exists? ;)
08:12<Pikka>where is that setting anyway, I can't find it D:
08:13<abculatter_2>Well, it's just a logical thing to have, doesn't really take much playing before you realize that sometimes you don't want passengers accumulating in your oil well station. Plus, whole reason I'm playing OTTD is because I used to play Locomotion, and if I remember correctly that had a feature similar to what's in OTTD
08:15<abculatter_2>Is there a way to view what vehicles are available without making a depot?
08:15<andythenorth>on the menu for vehicle type
08:15<andythenorth>list available vehicles or such
08:16<Pikka>"Available x"
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08:16<b_jonas>yes, that's useful for airplanes
08:16<b_jonas>in the early game when you airports are relatively expensive
08:16<b_jonas>no wait
08:16<b_jonas>I mean in the midgame when small airports are no longer available but you'd just want to start doing airplanes
08:22<Pikka>the setting name for the only-when-first-train-arrives is selectgoods, but it doesn't appear to be in the settings menu? is it that much of a no-brainer that everyone wants it turned on? :P
08:22<Pikka>or am I just blind and can't find it
08:28<abculatter_2>Ugghhhh, the next industry I wanna make a train line to is completely surrounded by farms... Farmlands is expensive.
08:38<abculatter_2>Is there a way to distribute cargo evenly between two stations?
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: most likely you're blind, or unable to put in correct search terms, or you didn't select the right settings filter
08:43<Pikka>where is it, then? :o
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08:50<b_jonas>can newgrf statoins have platforms with diagonal rails in them?
08:52<Pikka>hmm, you know what
08:52<Pikka>I don't have the "stations" category of settings :D
08:52<@peter1138>I had a patch for that
08:52<Pikka>how did this happen
08:52<@peter1138>Your settings settings setting is set incorrectly.
08:53<Pikka>I suppose I should update a nightly or sommat
08:53<b_jonas>Pikka: I don't know then
08:54<b_jonas>peter1138: looks nice, where is that from?
08:54<b_jonas>wow, I want to build those
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09:18<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> I had a patch for that <-- but that actually didn't work with newgrfs, so is not an answer to the question :p
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: the filters are set at the top of the window
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09:21<Pikka>Eddi / anyone who cares:
09:21*Pikka shrugs
09:22<V453000>tis in Limitations now Pikka
09:22<V453000>or so
09:22<V453000>ie, Stations submenu no longer uxistz
09:22<Pikka>but it's not there
09:22<Pikka>in the "station" filtered
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: and if you filter for "cargo"?
09:25<Pikka>and the whole "limitations" tree
09:26<Pikka>someone ate the setting
09:27<Pikka>perhaps it's just this nightly though and it came back, I'll update before complaining too loudly
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>in any case, you should be able to flip the setting from the console
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09:28<Pikka>I can, and don't really want to
09:29<Pikka>abculatter_2 was asking about it
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>maybe things got weird in one of the "clean out some settings" runs...
09:32<abculatter_2>I really hate how the station ratings make long-distance train transport lines crap...
09:32<andythenorth>what’s max ship speed?
09:34<V453000>abculatter_2: wtf?
09:34<V453000>everybody keeps ranting how distance is everything XD
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09:34<abculatter_2>Well, unless I'm doing something terribly wrong.
09:34<V453000>you do use signals, right?
09:35<Pikka>he's complaining that his train takes a long time and his station ratings drop while it's travelling
09:35<abculatter_2>No, it's not just when it's traveling
09:35<V453000>to use multiple trains on the track so that your rating never drops since train is always loading
09:35<Pikka>because if your station rating isn't 100% you're doing something wrong
09:35<V453000>93% ;)
09:36<Pikka>andy; it's 80-odd mph?
09:36<Pikka>255 / 3.2?
09:36<abculatter_2>Sigh... So basically you're forced to make every train line have at least two trains in it?
09:37<Pikka>you could also not care about the station rating. as long as the train gets a load and makes money.
09:38<V453000>you are not forced to do anything but if you want your industries to have good % transported and hence increase production (original industries work that way), you need to have a train always loading, yes
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09:39<Pikka>you broke him
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09:43<abculatter_2>Blubluh technology
09:44<abculatter_2>Anyway, the local station rating, from what I can tell, seems to be the percentage of stuff produced local industries will give you to be transported
09:45<abculatter_2>Am I mistaken in this?
09:45<Pinkbeast>Station rating looks a bit odd sometimes (especially for pax, IIRC)
09:45<Pikka>more or less. but if your one slow train goes a long way, doesn't it get a decent load anyway?
09:46<abculatter_2>Not really.
09:48<abculatter_2>Only getting 20-40% of an industry's output really isn't very much, especially since I tried to do this as my first thing. Not only was the train slow, but also usually only came back half full when it wasn't on 'wait for full load'
09:48<Pinkbeast>You may as well leave it loading until it's full; then it will always run full and rating will be less bad.
09:49<abculatter_2>That didn't really help much. It did help, though.
09:50<Pinkbeast>Two short trains? They can run with only one additional platform and a little trackwork at the loading station.
09:52<abculatter_2>Yeah, that seems like the only option there really is... I was hoping to be able to avoid signals and be lazy, oh well.
09:53<andythenorth>Pikka: if a ship is trying to do 91mph, think it might overflow in a signed byte? o_O
09:53<andythenorth>79mph might be the limit iirc
09:53<andythenorth>that’s today’s bug then :)
09:53<Pikka>didn't I say that in the forum just now? ;)
09:53*andythenorth is behind the times
09:53<andythenorth>how can I read the forum when I am reading slideshares about SAAS pricing? :(
09:54<keoz>Is there someone here who could remove a just uploaded version of a GS on Bananas ? Using musa, I included /lang, thinking that it would eventually take the included *.txt file (or complaining, which it didn't) which resulted in an uncomplete upload :/
09:54<Pikka>you have two eyes, don't you?
09:54<andythenorth>I do yes
09:54<andythenorth>one is blurry though
09:54<Pikka>use that one for SAAS pricing
09:55<andythenorth>good point
09:55<Pikka>keoz: can you just reupload and replace it? might be faster than waiting for a moderator response :)
09:55<abculatter_2>Heh, I got a builder's yard that has 'bridge' at the end of the local town's name, so it looks like it's called 'Bridge Builder's Yard'. I should go ask if they have a bridge to sell me.
09:56<Pinkbeast>abculatter_2: The signals for "the entire line is one block except for the loading station" are not too bad. :-)
09:56<andythenorth>can haz moar ships plz
09:56<andythenorth>I dunno
09:56<keoz>Pikka: at least with musa, I can't replace it, it complains about the file being already uploaded
09:57<Pikka>do you need to increment the version number?
09:57<keoz>I'll try to update from within bananas
09:57<keoz>I'd like avoid to increment version number just for a missing file :)
09:59<Pikka>I think TrueBrain is the God of Bananas, but he doesn't appear to be here...
10:00<Pikka>planetmaker may or may not be able to help
10:01<keoz>I hope. I'll see when he's here.
10:02<andythenorth>“Your ship set is too big and has too many useless ships, please add some more"
10:04<abculatter_2>Hmmm... Am I supposed to not see any servers when I open the multiplayer window?
10:04<abculatter_2>In the main menu?
10:04<Pikka>did you change from LAN to Internet?
10:04<keoz>"Search on the internet"
10:05<keoz>or something like that
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the world is full of paradices
10:05<abculatter_2>I don't see that button, and "Find Server" did nothing
10:05<Pikka>paradoxes too, Eddi
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: that was deliberate :p
10:06<abculatter_2>Are you supposed to add servers yourself to this list?
10:06-!-luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
10:06<Pikka>it should search. it might be your firewall or something.
10:06<Pikka>ask the wiki :D
10:07<Pikka>"find server" is the button
10:07<keoz>abculatter_2: no, you don't need to add anything.
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10:29<@peter1138>hmm, it's changed "Advertised" Yes/No
10:29<@peter1138>need it on yes
10:32<abculatter_2>Still nothin for me
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10:36<keoz>Ok. I could solve the problem by giving a subversion to bananas and making a fake change in the code.
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10:41<Eddi|zuHause>keoz: whatever is on bananas is there forever, whatever new you put there must have a higher version (and different checksum)
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10:52<keoz>Eddi|zuHause: I know and understand this rule, but here it was not intended as a new version, more as fixing a wrong upload.
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10:53<keoz>Anyway, it's been solved.
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>that is essentially the same thing.
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>what if someone downloaded it before fixing your upload? they'll have a "broken" version forever and cannot fix it by downloading an update
10:54<keoz>Yes, that's right ...
10:55<keoz>As a matter of fact, 10 people at least downloaded the broken version before I fix that :p
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11:15<abculatter_2>+500,000 euros from my third year
11:15<abculatter_2>Airplanes OP
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>until you enable cargodist and want to favour capacity over raw income...
11:24<@peter1138>or enable infrastructure costs
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>keoz: usual package managers handle this by adding stuff to the version. so instead of a package "0.4.0" you have actually a package "0.4.0-1", and if only the packaging changes you get "0.4.0-2"
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11:29<abculatter_2>Just wondering, anyone here watch Game of Thrones?
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11:33<@Alberth>why would you do that when you can look at pretty trains driving on tracks you laid yourself?
11:34<keoz>Thinking about some Westeros style NewGRF ?
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11:36<keoz>Eddi|zuHause: for me I did 3 -> 3.1 (the point here being also that in the base code, GS only accept major version numbers, such as 1, 2, 3 ...
11:36<keoz>I don't know if BaNaNas would have token 3-1 :)
11:37<abculatter_2>Actually, I just downloaded a map based off the Game of Thrones speculative world map, for shits and giggles, since I've never seen it before.
11:37<abculatter_2>I wanted to know if oil rigs fit into its setting. I would think they wouldn't.
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11:49<andythenorth>quak quak
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11:52<@Alberth>hi hi
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12:04<andythenorth>small sets are a BAD FEATURE
12:04<andythenorth>people hate them
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12:09<keoz>That's normal. Small sets are anti-eyecandy.
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12:43<@Alberth>they are harder to design
12:45<keoz>Also, the point isn't necessary in choosing between small or big, but finding a coherent compromise.
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13:04<Eddi|zuHause>my coherent compromise definitely tends towards the "big" side
13:08<@Alberth>yeti et al :)
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14:28<@Alberth>running costs higher than the engine value :p
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14:35<andythenorth>small sets aren’t harder to design
14:35<andythenorth>they’re way easier
14:36<andythenorth>also compromise is an inevitable fact of most designs, but not the place you want to start from or end up :P
14:36<@Alberth>do running costs change?
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14:39<frosch123>Alberth: cars can be more valuable when completely fueled
14:39<@Alberth>apparently :)
14:40<@Alberth>apparently moving all that fuel is very costly
14:41<andythenorth>Alberth: was the costs question specific to something? o_O
14:41<@Alberth>andythenorth: yes
14:41<@Alberth>my running costs are higher than advertised
14:45<@planetmaker>hi ho
14:45<@Alberth>ho hi
14:46<@planetmaker>Alberth: running costs for wagons? (dunno if that works)
14:46<@Alberth>how was the talk?
14:46<@planetmaker>was quite ok, I think
14:46<@planetmaker>felt instantaneous better afterwards
14:47<@Alberth>not sure it would be recommended as doctor advice :)
14:47<@planetmaker>:P probably not
14:48<@planetmaker>and the French cuisine in a restaurant a collegue and myself went afterwards was a great reward, too
14:48<@Alberth>you were just hungry afterwards :D :)
14:48<@planetmaker>it was dinner time... I usually get hungry by around 18h :)
14:49<@planetmaker>they have a strange schedule here... 1h session in the morning, lunch, and then 2.5 hour session
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14:51<andythenorth>Alberth: wagon costs?
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14:51<andythenorth>IH sets high costs
14:51<andythenorth>I don’t do any variable cost magic, way too much effort
14:52<@planetmaker>and mostly pointless anyway
14:52<@Alberth>looks that way 8*350
14:54<andythenorth>wagon costs are untested :)
14:55<andythenorth>but the numbers are the correct costs
14:55<andythenorth>if you can’t make money, let me know, I’ll reduce them
14:55<andythenorth>and blame frosch123 :D
14:56<@Alberth>nah, seems fine, 160K income, 70K payments
14:57<@Alberth>I should just stop building :)
14:58<@Alberth>hmm +400, not very much :)
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14:59<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
14:59<Wolf01>hi hi
15:01<andythenorth>Alberth: let me know if the costs are too low also :P
15:01<andythenorth>the thinking is, trains are quite cheap to build, but you need a lot to make serious money
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15:01<andythenorth>so you can build out a big network quite fast
15:01<andythenorth>otherwise boring
15:02<andythenorth>dunno if they’re cheap enough though
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15:05<frosch123>yay, iron horse?
15:06<@Alberth>yes :)
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15:18<@Alberth>it's fun if the value of an engine is lower than the yearly running cost :p
15:20<andythenorth>probably realistic!
15:24<@Alberth>ugh, change engine and the train is .01 longer
15:26<andythenorth>I know it happens with some combinations
15:26<@Alberth>need more money :p
15:30<@Alberth>0-8-0 is 40 years later, more powerful, but slower
15:31<andythenorth>it’s there because Dan likes it :)
15:31<andythenorth>it’s marginally useful if you have dedicated coal lines
15:32<@Alberth>wood hauling? :)
15:32<andythenorth>yeah that too
15:32<andythenorth>I would argue to take it out, but I think a set needs one or two near-pointless things
15:32<andythenorth>adds character
15:32<@planetmaker>0-8-0 - is that the big boy?
15:34<andythenorth>Alberth: we considered doing everything in 0.5 or 1.0 lengths
15:34<andythenorth>but it’s a bit limiting
15:35<@Alberth>I can imagine, it's more along V's street
15:35<@Alberth>if you add a car, you get 5.0 and 5.1, which is unfortunate
15:36<andythenorth>sad :(
15:36<andythenorth>don’t have a fix :)
15:38<@Alberth>0-8-0 is faster, the extra power and TE makes the difference
15:39<@Alberth>0-6-0 with coal may theoretically do 88km/h, but it doesn't go faster than 72, the peed of the 0-8-0
15:40<@Alberth>should try the 0-8-0 with the same coal :)
15:41<andythenorth>you have 4x weight?
15:44<andythenorth>so that engine does have a use :)
15:44<andythenorth>good to know
15:45<@Alberth>you may want to make the top speed a little higher, from 88km/h to 72km/h in 40 years development is a bit weird :)
15:46*Alberth hits andythenorth realistically
15:48*andythenorth fixes hovercraft
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15:51<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> Alberth: cars can be more valuable when completely fueled <-- my sister once drove a car on the last drop that she wasn't allowed to fill up because it was about to be sold
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15:57<@planetmaker>did those previous tags build w/o problem, andythenorth?
15:58<andythenorth>looks like it
15:58<andythenorth>did rc-4 and rc-5 fail?
15:58<andythenorth>I was not in the devzone channel
15:58<@planetmaker>hm, obviously. Dunno why this fails. Yep
15:58<@planetmaker>it was. But you're not there
15:59<andythenorth>fails on python 2 / 3 path stuff probably
15:59<andythenorth>will Jenkins tell me?
15:59<@planetmaker>the console log says that it failed to find revision 'squid'
16:00<andythenorth>failing on - chars?
16:01<@planetmaker>well. I'm not aware of having changed anything since -rc3. I wasn't at home much, since
16:01<andythenorth>the significant change is switch to nml tip
16:01<andythenorth>so I expected that to be troublesome
16:01<andythenorth>but this looks something else
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16:10<andythenorth>bloody river boots
16:10<andythenorth>everyone is obsessed with them
16:10<@Alberth>nah, /me isn't
16:11<@Alberth>I turned rivers off some time ago, too annoying for tracks
16:11<andythenorth>they’re totally pointless
16:11<andythenorth>I only leave them on because I drew them, and it was a *lot* of fiddly drawing
16:11<@Alberth>it's cheap transport in competitive games perhaps
16:12<andythenorth>Worst Feature Ever
16:12<@Alberth>in some sense, perhaps the current engines are too strong?
16:13<@Alberth>ie am I supposed to be able to haul 4.8 train filled with wood and 1 engine?
16:13<andythenorth>I play with freight multiplier 1x
16:13<@Alberth>at 60km/h at weight 4x ?
16:13<andythenorth>probably yes
16:13<andythenorth>the brit roster is rather fast and powerful
16:14<andythenorth>too fast :P
16:14*andythenorth is impatient
16:14<andythenorth>also I only play cargo goal gamescripts
16:14<andythenorth>that might be influencing my set design rather a lot
16:14<@Alberth>I always like to have 2 engines in my trains, it looks much nicer, imho
16:14<andythenorth>use two small tank engines
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>rivers are cool, but for early game canals are way too expensive, even as short additions to rivers. and lack of river docks is annoying
16:15<@Alberth>nuts has these double headed steam engines running at 150km/h :)
16:17<@Alberth>perhaps I should play with bigger freight multipliers :p
16:18<andythenorth>it’s even realisms!
16:23<@planetmaker>the 40+ wagon ore trains are pulled by two engines here, too
16:26<andythenorth>who are these people struggling to make money with ships?
16:26<andythenorth>ships print money
16:26<andythenorth>no infrastructure cost
16:26<andythenorth>no queues
16:26<andythenorth>no contention
16:29<@Alberth>not enough distance perhaps, and they think they are too slow?
16:29<@Alberth>perhaps not enough stuff to transport
16:31<andythenorth>NO SKILLS!
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16:34<@Alberth>can't you let them play with fish instead?
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16:42<Eddi|zuHause>two steam engines was common even on passenger trains, when they had steeper inclines to travel.
16:44<andythenorth>Alberth: FISH is now forbidden
16:44<andythenorth>I wish to remove it from all places
16:44<andythenorth>including banaanans
16:44<andythenorth>and all of your computers
16:45<andythenorth>FISH has sunk
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>you can tell apple to remove it from all iDevices
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>remote deletion!
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16:49<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: good idea
16:57<FLHerne>andythenorth: Oh, I must lobby you about river boats here too!
16:57<andythenorth>you can try
16:57<andythenorth>river boats are rubbish
16:57<andythenorth>rivers are rubbish
16:57<andythenorth>rivers look bad
16:57<FLHerne>Most annoying thing about them is the pathfinder being broken on rivers
16:58<andythenorth>locks are 3 tiles when they should be 2
16:58<andythenorth>pathfinder is very broken
16:58<andythenorth>(allow 90’ turns can help the pathfinder on rivers a bit - it at least stops getting stuck so often)
16:58<andythenorth>building docks on rivers is an abomination
16:58<andythenorth>rivers are never 2 tiles wide
16:58<andythenorth>rivers look bad
16:59<andythenorth>did I cover everything?
16:59<FLHerne>They look alright in valleys, but that needs a custom heightmap
16:59<andythenorth>might as well build a channel at sea level
16:59<FLHerne>Luckily, many newer heightmaps feature river valleys :-)
16:59<andythenorth>at least then you can bridge them for rails / roads
16:59<andythenorth>I just bulldoze them
17:00<FLHerne>Flat docks are something that's needed, certainly. Is there not a patch for that? There's a patch for everything
17:00<andythenorth>rivers should be deleted
17:00<andythenorth>also river boats are pointless
17:00<andythenorth>just use boats
17:00<FLHerne>FISH didn't have sufficient variety in small boats before
17:01*FLHerne uses one heck of a lot of them
17:01<andythenorth>you got bored of seeing the same one>
17:01<FLHerne>Yep. And it would be even worse if the ones on the rivers were the same too
17:02<andythenorth>rivers are silly
17:02<FLHerne>The new variety of larger freighters is nice though :-)
17:02<andythenorth>you found me a bug also
17:02<andythenorth>Marstein Freighter should be river-capable
17:02<FLHerne>Oh, is that the renamed Tuskawhatsit?
17:03<andythenorth>so many names
17:03<andythenorth>btw, it’s a different grfid to FISH :P
17:03<andythenorth>so you can use both
17:03<FLHerne>Nifty, might end up doing that
17:04<andythenorth>should the Altamira be river capable? 360t? Maybe
17:05<andythenorth>also maybe not
17:05<andythenorth>FLHerne: I’ll give you a cookie, hangon
17:06<FLHerne>No, everything bigger than a Tuskawhatsit looks silly on a river IME
17:07<FLHerne>That does go for the big barges, o/c
17:07<andythenorth>they spread beyond the banks horribly on river / canal
17:07<FLHerne>But they're good on small lakes, because the proper freighters look silly there
17:07<FLHerne>And short straight canals between them
17:08<andythenorth>^^ that has the second roster in
17:08<andythenorth>if you want to use both rosters...tough
17:08<andythenorth>unless you decompile and change grfid…
17:08*FLHerne looks
17:08<andythenorth>it’s a param...
17:09<FLHerne>Ooh hey, Danube barges :-)
17:10<FLHerne>That ferry looks a bit odd
17:10<FLHerne>Maybe the real ones look odd too :P
17:10<andythenorth>there is no real one :P
17:10<andythenorth>it’s made out of the ferry from fish, cut in half
17:10<andythenorth>stuck the rear halves together
17:11<andythenorth>if I look hard enough on I’ll find a real one though
17:11<FLHerne>That might explain the oddlookingness
17:11<andythenorth>everything seems to have a prototype
17:11<FLHerne>Loading ramps or something might look good
17:11<andythenorth>anyway, that’s today’s cookie
17:11<andythenorth>you are the exclusive recipient
17:12<FLHerne>Well, thanks :-)
17:12<andythenorth>there will be up to 10 rosters maybe in the end
17:12<andythenorth>unless we get bored
17:12<andythenorth>choose one
17:12*andythenorth is bored of trying to make one perfect roster, there is no perfect here
17:12<FLHerne>Or find the relevant switches, and hack them to get everything at once :P
17:13<andythenorth>that too
17:13<andythenorth>or make a grf that enables them (possible I think)
17:14<andythenorth>the IDs are published in the docs
17:14<andythenorth>turning them on / off is probably only a climate switch maybe
17:15<andythenorth>yeah, just climate
17:15<FLHerne>The problem with ships is that all ships of one type look identical
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17:15<FLHerne>I can make different-looking trains just by mixing and matching vehicles
17:15<andythenorth>ships is problem, no?
17:16<FLHerne>And trams/buses are always swarming about behind buildings
17:16<andythenorth>randomising them is a crapload of work, and doesn’t look that good
17:16<andythenorth>I could randomise the color to 2cc / 1cc trivially, but that’s dumb
17:16<andythenorth>they don’t even have cargo :P
17:16<andythenorth>also much work
17:16*FLHerne would use randomly recoloured ships, straight off :D
17:16<FLHerne>Might be confusing in MP though
17:17<andythenorth>I’d consider it though, recolouring is easy at compile time with pixa
17:17<andythenorth>iron horse already does it for some vehicles
17:18<andythenorth>and all the code is there for random sprites
17:18<andythenorth>also bedtime is
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17:45<AndroUser>Hello I want do set up a build environment what do I need on a Windows machine?
17:47<@planetmaker>AndroUser: check the wiki ^
17:47<+glx>should work
17:47<Wolf01>'nighty night
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17:50<AndroUser>Ok is there any more documentation like java doc?
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17:55<+glx>it's not java
17:57<AndroUser>That's why I wrote "like"
17:57<+glx>but there is doxygen stuff at
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18:50<FLHerne>That reminds me - is there any higher-level documentation than just each individual class/template?
18:51<FLHerne>I was hacking at the pathfinder a while ago, I couldn't find any info on what exactly YAPF does as an integrated whole
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19:47<avdg>FLHerne: does this help?
19:48<LordAro>no one really understands YAPF very well, it's really badly documented
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19:48<LordAro>it probably wouldn't have been included in trunk nowadays :)
19:49<avdg>documentation :p
19:50<avdg>meh, imo you have to understand the global concept of a pathfinder, then understand the use case in openttd
19:51<LordAro>and then understand the YAPF implementation, which is a whole different story :)
19:51<avdg>it takes a look from different perspectives
19:51<avdg>ofc, undocumented code makes it even harder to understand :/
19:51<avdg>but meh, at least its a way to get close
19:52<avdg>(and meh, don't take my advice literally, everybody is different, you know ;-)
19:53<FLHerne>avdg: Not a huge amount, tbh
19:54<FLHerne>I know pretty much what it does for the outside world, and from that page and the thread I can see kind of how it's supposed to work in theory
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19:55<FLHerne>But there's no detailed description of the algorithm, and no description at all of how the umpteen nested inherited templates make whatever that is happen
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19:56<avdg>I guess the maintainers had to fight with the code
19:57<FLHerne>avdg: The problem is that it's obviously sacrificed simplicity (of implementation at least) to performance ages ago
19:58<avdg>I guess thats a very good point
19:58<avdg>there were a lot of complains about performances
19:58<FLHerne>I wonder if older svn revisions have a version of it before it was optimised beyond uninformed comprehension?
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19:59<avdg>just change the numbers :P
20:00<LordAro>i'm not sure, but i don't think it's been changed significantly since it was implemented
20:01<FLHerne>LordAro: Has anyone besides its author ever understood it, then? :P
20:01<FLHerne>I'd have thought that if they had, that would have had to be written down somewhere to be communicated
20:02<FLHerne>Maybe it's buried in the thread somewhere
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20:02<avdg>most coding progress is done by 1 person I guess
20:02<avdg>thats the way programming works
20:02*FLHerne will probably just give up and start from scratch based on OPF's interface
20:06*avdg sees the pathfinders interface simply relies on function calls
20:13<avdg>anyway, gn
20:14<FLHerne>avdg: 'Night
20:14<FLHerne>Yeah, the actual interface to the PF from outside is really simple :-)
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20:20<Vadtec>will the RaspberryPi run a dedicated server decently for say 1-3 players?
20:23<Vadtec>RPi model B btw
20:24<avdg>FLHerne: hmm, just a quick though (and then I'm really going to sleep)
20:24<avdg>you better study the datastructures instead of the code ;-)
20:25<avdg>vadtec: there are a lot of other factors like the size of the maps
20:25<avdg>and how busy the map is
20:25<avdg>hard to say I guess
20:25<avdg>only way is to try it out
20:26<avdg>anyway, now I'm really going to sleep
20:26<Vadtec>avdg: kk, was just wonderin
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 29 00:00:24 2014