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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-05

---Logopened Fri Sep 05 00:00:18 2014
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01:51<b_jonas>uh... in the "Available Trains" dialog box I open from the Trains list, how can I tell which rail type a train needs?
01:54<b_jonas>wait what? there can be more than four rail types in a game?
01:57<@planetmaker>good morning. And welcome in 2010 ;)
01:59<b_jonas>great! that means I can play with the default set of powerful steam, diesel and electric trains, the monorails and maglevs from this Monolev Replacement Set, and with this Vacuum Tube Train set, all in the same game!
01:59<b_jonas>and even their dates line up nicely
01:59<b_jonas>and they're all so powerful and fast
02:03<b_jonas>hmm, but then I'll need to get a bridge set with fast enough bridges to handle these powerful vacuum trains
02:03<b_jonas>do you have any suggestion?
02:03<Supercheese>or just use tunnels
02:03<Supercheese>no speed limits
02:04<Supercheese>for crossing valleys/water, either just dive down/up the valley (vactrains will just laugh at the elevation changes) or raise land and build a causeway over the water
02:04<Supercheese>for crossing tracks, use tunnels
02:05<b_jonas>guess that's one possibility
02:06<Supercheese>I know not of any bridgeset with high enough speeds for vactrains
02:06<b_jonas>I've seen one but it's unrealistic
02:06<b_jonas>it just adds one unlimited bridge
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02:54<@planetmaker>b_jonas: you play with vacuum trains and argue a bridge might be unrealistic? Really?
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03:15<Xaroth|Work>TomyLobo: do you play eve perchance?
03:15<TomyLobo>hah, you're the 2nd person to ask me that this week
03:16<TomyLobo>no, that character used to be mine, though
03:16<Xaroth|Work>well, I know what he's upto :P
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04:32<b_jonas>planetmaker: no, the grf that just changes existing bridges to unlimited speed limit is unrealistic. but I've found another that only makes tubular bridges stronger so they have a speed limit of 4100, specifically for vacuum trains.
04:32<Rubidium>why would trains in a vacuum laugh at elevation changes?
04:33<b_jonas>planetmaker: actually, the strange thing about vacuum trains is that they should be fast, but they shouldn't have such a high acceleration I think
04:33<Rubidium>currently the biggest problem of high speed trains is the air drag, not the elevation changes. So if the air drag is removed, then the elevation changes are becoming much more significant
04:33<b_jonas>is there a vacuum train set where they don't have more acceleration than ordinary maglevs?
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04:35<andythenorth>Pikka run away
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04:43<b_jonas>is there a command to single-step a pausd game?
04:45<@planetmaker>no. and no
04:49<b_jonas>I'll have to try to add a command for that, so I can make successive screenshots of a game to make an animation
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04:59<@planetmaker>search forums for timelaps patch
04:59<@planetmaker>^ @ b_jonas
04:59<@planetmaker>ancient but might be moderately easy to adjust
04:59<b_jonas>planetmaker: ok, thanks for the hint
05:00<b_jonas>that might help me in where to start to look
05:22<Pikka>doesn't it
05:24<@planetmaker>hm, timelapse even
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06:34<lugo>hi, is it possible for a vehicle to - A) transfer a good to a station (no transfer order since cargodist is on) B) modify the cargo of said veh. resp. wagons and C) load the cargo it has been modified to - without having to leave the station/port etc.?
06:35<lugo>i recently played the reddit client, and for some reason that behaviour was only possible with ships not trains..
06:38<b_jonas>lugo: I thought you could only refit vehicles in a depot or dock, and it costs money each time, but maybe not
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06:40<andythenorth>you can refit at stations, if the newgrf allows it
06:41<andythenorth>there are also some bugs with it
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06:42<b_jonas>I see
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06:42<b_jonas>that applies to which kinds of vehicles?
06:51<@planetmaker>lugo, yes, that's possible. But the NewGRF needs to allow that. OpenGFX+Trains for instance does. Pretty sure that goes also for NUTS and IronHorse, likely also Pineapple trains
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07:20<lugo>Yeah i was using UKRS, but somehow it didn't work out
07:22<lugo>since it's not vanilla i guess it won't make to much sense to post a savegame?
07:24<@planetmaker>ukrs doesn't support that, vanilla neither
07:25<@planetmaker>the station refit callback which needs to be used is relatively new (~2 years?), thus old(er) NewGRFs don't support it. And not even all new ones do
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07:36<lugo>i meant UKRS2..
07:37<lugo>what do you mean vanilla doesn't support that?
07:37<@planetmaker>OpenTTD w/o NewGRFs
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07:39<lugo>it's not vanilla + UKRS2 (and other NewGRFs) it's the reddit client +UKRS2 (and other NewGRFs), so posting a savegame won't make much sense still?!
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09:02<Pikka>UKRS2 allows station refitting, but not for all vehicles or all cargos
09:03<Pikka>it's realism and BAD FEATURES gone mad.
09:04<Pikka>"auto-refittable" in the buy menu text refers to station refitting.
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11:40<DanMacK>hey all
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12:48<@Alberth>hi Izual
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12:56<Eddi|zuHause>you drove him away!
12:58<@Alberth>apparently :(
12:59<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: btw, I realized there is an advantage to cargo-dist, it makes your cargo move further, increasing the profit
13:00<@Alberth>so it's not just making your own life more difficult
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>sort of. needs a lot of investment in the network for that effect to dominate
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13:01<@Alberth>I had two saw mills fed by wood. Connect them, and cargodist moves wood back and forth on that line
13:02<@Alberth>pretty much free money
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. "realism" :p
13:03<@Alberth>maybe the distance was just right
13:04<@Alberth>yeah, game-play wise it would be better if wood would move only one direction :)
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>the "demand" heuristic is very crude
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>you would need a better economy simulation to solve this
13:07<@Alberth>it would be nice if it could handle things like subsidies and probably supplies
13:07<@Alberth>scripts like nocargoal are also affected probably
13:08<@Alberth>except you can sort-of get away with it by not extending your network to beyond the destination
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is a fundamental shortcoming of cargodist. it does not automatically benefit you to extend your network to difficult-to-reach places
13:09<@Alberth>I had an idea to extend subsidies towards contracts, but with current cargo-dist that's going to be tricky
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>i passenger subsidies could work more like exclusive transport rights within a city
13:11<Pikka><Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: btw, I realized there is an advantage to cargo-dist, it makes your cargo move further, increasing the profit <- you could just move all your cargo long-distance anyway before, cargodist adds nothing new to that.
13:11<Pikka>eg, only connect each coal mine to a powerplant on the other side of the map
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>so sort of like "the first one to build an inner-city bus network will benefit"
13:12<Pikka>sounds like a job for gamescripts ;)
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>but he also needs a minimum transported amount (per year) to extend this subsidy to the next year
13:12<@Alberth>Pikka: true, it's just not my style of playing
13:13<@Alberth>you'd need to have control over cargo dist from the game script, imho
13:14<@Alberth>maybe not full control, but some control would be useful
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the game script could tweak some economy factors, or simulate an economy of its own
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13:17<Eddi|zuHause>the interface would be the "demand" function
13:17<@Alberth>sounds like a good idea
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>which basically would be the same thing as tweaking pathfinder penalties, or providing a new follow_track function to the pathfinder. you don't have anything to modify in the core
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>another place to tweak would be the industry production (maybe scale down by a factor if things are not connected) or the cargo payment (basically subsidies)
13:25<@Alberth>too bad the newgrf doesn't get info about moved cargo that it produces
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13:26<Eddi|zuHause>well the interface for that would be the station rating, but it's terrible at measuring that.
13:27<@Alberth>cannot hook our own rating CB in there?
13:27<@Alberth>ie by NewGRF
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes, newgrfs can do that. but it's a hassle, which is why nobody ever does it
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>FIRS has a very rudimentary feature for that
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>but here also comes in the problem that the newgrf only has local information, not global
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13:30<Eddi|zuHause>the current station rating has two major prolbems: a) a tiny bus every day is better than a huge train every month, no matter if the station is overflowing with cargo, and b) industries are way too sensitive towards low station rating
13:32<@Alberth>delivered cargo is delivered cargo right? The trouble is just that it should get global information to align against
13:32<@Alberth>but so far, newgrf specs assume industries don't need global information, or handing out some control
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13:35<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is that low station rating has too many side effects. you cannot sustain a network basically below anything like 50%, which makes an algorithm that uses the station rating to measure connected industries and line capacity fail
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13:36<Pikka>"realistically", cargos should have different sensitivities to vehicle frequency
13:36<Pikka>coal can sit around for months, goods for a week, passengers want to go right now
13:36<@Alberth>with the currently broken rating mechanism you're dead anyway
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>then you have the problem that both the newgrf (local and intrinsic information) and the gamescript (global information) need to have a say in the rating calculation
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13:38<@Alberth>hi andy
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>the game script cannot know what "COAL" is
13:39<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it knows to the same extent as vehicle grfs know
13:39<andythenorth>silly old ‘must be neutral GS'
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>and thus cannot decide on whether to favour line speed, line frequency or line capacity
13:39<frosch123>it knows both the cargo id and the cargo classes
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, but the industry grf knows more than that, thus that is the place where the calculation should take place
13:40<@Alberth>frosch123: it's more about "can be months on transport"
13:41<@Alberth>or "needs constant delivery" or "needs only small amounts", probably
13:41<andythenorth>is it an issue?
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: more like a dozen issues simultaneously
13:42<andythenorth>seems a bit fiddly
13:42<andythenorth>it was more of an issue watching cdist backload copper ore to the source
13:42<andythenorth>which was bizarre
13:43<andythenorth>trying to use a transfer-and-take-cargo order on a mixd train
13:43<andythenorth>afaik transfer-and-x orders are known to be sketchy with cdist
13:43<@Alberth>they still are?
13:43<@Alberth>I know some were fixed
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not up to date with that.
13:44<andythenorth>it’s probably reproducible in the game running on coop nightly server
13:44<andythenorth>might try later
13:44<andythenorth>still working :P
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>"no loading" and "no unloading" should be no issue, but the problem with "transfer" was afair that cargo that uses train X can use A as destination, while cargo that uses train Y cannot
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26768 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-09-05 17:45:37 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>bulgarian - 13 changes by komara
13:45<@DorpsGek>esperanto - 87 changes by Ryton
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 19 changes by juanjo
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>but i still think the first thing to solve to make station rating as a measure for network quality work is remove the effect on industry growth/closure and the cargo decay effect. (and possibly figure out a new way to influence those)
13:48<andythenorth>industry growth / closure needs a better mechanic
13:48<andythenorth>also newgrf-able
13:48<andythenorth>I think that would be a worthwhile project
13:49<andythenorth>unrelated, I keep intending to refactor FIRS to use the built-in production multiplier (controlled by supplies not rating)
13:49<andythenorth>but I don’t understand the code that is doing the current production boost :)
13:49<andythenorth>it would then be trivial to allow station rating + supplies
13:50<andythenorth>or supplies + whatever
13:50<andythenorth>cargo delivered rather than collected?
13:56<@Alberth>you didn't write the production boost thingie?
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13:56<@Alberth>woo, DanMacK and andythenorth online at the same time :)
13:56<andythenorth>ho ho
13:57<DanMacK>lol briefly...
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14:06<frosch123>andythenorth: didn't we drop the production multiplier because it was terrible gameplay?
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14:08<andythenorth>frosch123: yes, but the underlying mechanism makes sense imho
14:08<andythenorth>and the cbs for it are fine
14:08<andythenorth>i.e. the props that are incremented / decrememented seem ok to me
14:08<frosch123> <- hmm, just remembered that. why did i not succeed in convincing you? :p
14:09<frosch123>^Spike^: btw. and example for an ancient paste to repost :p
14:09<frosch123>from february :p
14:10<andythenorth>mostly because I didn’t want to write the patch & wait for FIRS compile
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14:10<frosch123>andythenorth: when the old method was trashed, the idea was that incremental changes are terrible, and direct quick feedback was nicer :p
14:11<Pikka>fixed production
14:11<andythenorth>frosch123: yes, I wouldn’t change the gameplay, just the nfo / nml implementation
14:11<Pikka>every mine produces the same for ever
14:11<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
14:11<Pikka>best gameplay
14:11<andythenorth>that’s what fishing grounds do
14:11<andythenorth>users hate me for it
14:12<Pikka>in that case, an arcane string of letters and numbers in the industry info window is the only solution
14:12<^Spike^>frosch123 if you want it on the new paste... copy... pasta? :D
14:13<@Alberth>Pikka: I once sent a bug report to george about dumping debug output in the window :D
14:13<frosch123>^Spike^: no, i want it in firs :p
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14:57<andythenorth>so flat docks?
14:57<@Alberth>found a new pony?
14:59<andythenorth>we should MP game
14:59<andythenorth>but not right now
14:59<@Alberth>your timing for these things is quite terrible :(
15:00<andythenorth>your timezone is terrible :(
15:00<andythenorth>I only just finished work
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15:00<@Alberth>fair enough :)
15:11<Wolf01> wait, you mean you're not on our timezone?
15:12<@planetmaker>lok, good one, Wolf01 :)
15:14<Pikka>am I not, then?
15:14<Pikka>I guess that means I must be still up at 5am :o
15:15<andythenorth>you are just past Italy, no?
15:15<Rubidium>andythenorth: how can that be? Last time I was in the UK (i.e. last week) I finished around 14:00-ish
15:15<Rubidium>how can that time zone now have work till 20:00?
15:16<andythenorth>you are a university lecturer?
15:16<andythenorth>nobody else finishes at 14.00
15:16<andythenorth>unless they start at 06.00
15:16<Rubidium>no, I had a training. Today I was done at 10:00 (and started at 07:30, but that's more because I worked till 18:00 the last few days)
15:17<Rubidium>I did go to Imperial College afterwards last friday, so I had university-ish and lecture-ish that day
15:25*andythenorth fixes offsets
15:26<andythenorth>we removed up cursor support in console?
15:27<@Alberth>at least not in r26762
15:27<andythenorth>failing in OS X
15:28*andythenorth types reload_newgrf a lot tonight :P
15:28<Pikka>andythenorth, measure twice, cut once?
15:28<andythenorth>for offsets?
15:29<andythenorth>I always end up doing it by eye
15:29<andythenorth>and the in-game sprite aligner values have minimal relation to the newgrf values
15:30<Rubidium>does dividing by 4 help?
15:30<andythenorth>might be divide by 2 on y
15:31<andythenorth>and x might be correct
15:33<@Alberth>I usually write down the start and final values, and change the newgrf value by the same amount in the same direction
15:34<andythenorth>it’s ok
15:34<andythenorth>I usually get it right in 3 or 4 attempts
15:34<andythenorth>and there’s only 40 sets to define
15:35<andythenorth>so I only have to type reload_newgrfs 150 times or so
15:35<@Alberth>do all 40 at the same time :p
15:36<andythenorth>you single-shot coders :P
15:36<andythenorth>I see people do it, but I never can
15:36<Pikka>make template vehicle
15:36<Pikka>turn on bounding boxes
15:37<Pikka>take screenshots to measure offset errors
15:37<Pikka>fix offset errors
15:37<Pikka>put all sprites into template from template vehicle :P
15:37<andythenorth>oh eddi had a thing for that too
15:38<andythenorth>he showed me how to measure and calculate the offset reliably
15:38*andythenorth has fricking forgotten
15:38<@Alberth>write a script :)
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15:40<Pikka>meanwhile, back in the jungle...
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15:45*andythenorth trams
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15:55<andythenorth>faster car
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16:29*andythenorth does pondering
16:29<frosch123>pondering pondering?
16:29<andythenorth>frick, just remembered I have bugs to fix :(
16:29<andythenorth>do frogs ponder?
16:30<frosch123>nah, i just slack off
16:33<frosch123>i could write nml specs
16:34<andythenorth>or watch youtube videos
16:38<andythenorth>or fix bugs :P
16:50<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> he showed me how to measure and calculate the offset reliably <-- the "anchor" pixel is the hidden corner of the bounding box. very easy
16:51<andythenorth>oh yes :)
16:51<andythenorth>and then just measure
16:51<andythenorth>worked first time 99% of time
16:59*andythenorth releases horses
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>hold back your horses!
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17:11<Markk>Guten tag, any folks from Bundesrepublik Deutschland here? :)
17:11<Markk>Or other peeps that speak German?
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17:12<Markk>Would this be a good formulation: "Freitag mit einem wenig gemütlichen tortillas"?
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17:13<Markk>(Tortillas is just a placeholder for another word)
17:17<andythenorth>a 666 pixel wide screenshot
17:17<andythenorth>Iron Horseman of the Apocalypse
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17:19<andythenorth>is released
17:19<andythenorth>happy horsing
17:19<andythenorth>it’s basically just UKRS 2, but with more BAD FEATURES
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17:45<frosch123>Markk: friday with little/hardly comfortable tortillas?
17:45-!-MTsPony [] has quit []
17:45<frosch123>ENoSense :)
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17:51<Markk>frosch123: "Friday with a bit of cozy tortillas"
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18:01<frosch123>well, i cannot figure out the intonation you are heading for. either you want to invite some business partner, your mother-in-law, or you want to date someone :)
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>Markk: i agree with frosch123 here. we definitely need more context.
18:30<Markk>It's just a random sentence. :)
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>it is not even a sentence
18:30<Markk>The sentence that I wanted in the beginning was "Friday with a bit of cozy suicide".
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18:31<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, instead of "einem" you probably want "ein"
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>and "wenig" could be replaced by "bißchen" (or new spelling "bisschen")
18:31<Markk>But I think it should be "A cozy Friday with a suicide".
18:32<Markk>Ah, that's great to know
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>that is also probably closer related to "bit", etymologically
18:33<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: How would you translate this: "A cozy Friday with a suicide"?
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>"Biß" ~ "Bite", and "-chen" is a diminutive
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>"Ein gemütlicher Freitag mit [einem] Selbstmord"
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>it might flow better without the "a" ("einem")
18:34<Markk>Should it be einem and not ein in that case?
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>but again, depends on context
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>because the "a" now refers to the "suicide", and not the "bit"
18:35<Markk>Cheers mate!
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>also, it would be completely different if you used "tortillas"
18:37<Markk>Good thaat I took the real sentence now then
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>you have to be careful with replacements, as the defining properties are the gender and the plural
18:38<Markk>Ich danke Ihnen für Ihre Hilfe!
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>so you have to take a word that has these exact same properties
18:38<Markk>I suspected that
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>and again, it's not actually a sentence :p
18:39<Markk>And I'm not so good at German to get an correct word.
18:40<Markk>It's more of a phrase.
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18:53<iniazi>Hello guys, i'm having a strange issue with openttd. it won't download updates/new addons through the 'Check Online Content' in-game interface... it installs fine, it downloads opengfx during install fine, I'm able to see multiplayer servers and able to connect (and spectate atleast)
18:55<iniazi>I disabled the firewall on this machine (win 7) without any luck. process explorer shows a connection established when I click 'download', to
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18:56<LordAro>what happens when you click that button?
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18:57<iniazi>another machine (win8.1) isn't able to connect either. On my work laptop (macbook pro) via vpn, it connects fine. so something with my network. just want to rule out bugs or find more info to help me debug (debug log of network activity...)
18:57<iniazi>LordAro: it brings up a window showing progress, but never progresses... just '0B of 5.59 MiB Downloaded'
18:58<iniazi>I deleted my install & openttd directory under my documents or whatever, and did a fresh install. but again i can't install new content through that
18:59<LordAro>i assume you've tried rebooting the router? (about as far as my networking debugging knowledge extends, i'm afraid :) )
19:00<iniazi>i'm thinking its my egress (fios) router...
19:00<LordAro>routers do sometimes have their own builtin firewall
19:00<iniazi>yeah. its been like this for a few months. I remember starting it up couple of months ago, and same thing. but didn't really start playing till now
19:01<Wolf01>'night all
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19:01<ST2>hint: try make a fresh installation of OpenTTD in a drive that not C: and create an empty openttd.cfg file there (same folder that exe)
19:01<ST2>or binary
19:01<iniazi>seems to be making an http connection to, website works fine and content list is populated correctly with updates etc.
19:02<iniazi>ST2: yeah good point. I'll do the non-installer route. should have tried that already
19:06<ST2>well, noticed that new M$ systems are way protective with OS drive - sometimes require a bunch of work to make stuff work as you want xD
19:08<iniazi>ST2: well I copied the zip file over to a directory in d:\ and renamed any openttd dirs on c:\ so it won't find it. anyway, it starts and says no opengfx (or something like that) and asks me to download? i said yes, and same ... 0 B of 3.28 MiB etc.
19:08<iniazi>i mean its stuck there at 0B
19:09<ST2>note: check all your AV/Firewall softwares running - openttd.exe, as an executable can be marked as dangerous sometimes ^^
19:09<ST2>so, there's your issue
19:09<iniazi>on process explorer it shows an established connection to
19:09<iniazi>oh man, i forgot to check AV.
19:09<ST2>and traffic?
19:10<ST2>if connection is made... there should be some bits/bytes from each side
19:11<iniazi>disabled avast and nope... I was actually so sure that would do it. hmm. let me see if I can see traffic. windows i'm usually limited to what I can see... let me see if I can install wireshark
19:11<ST2>unistall Avast
19:11<ST2>that's crap
19:12<ST2>tell me when done
19:14<LordAro>...install something else though
19:14<LordAro>MSE or AVG are usually good enough
19:15<ST2>note: I dnt work there
19:15<ST2>and it's free too ^^
19:17<LordAro>not a fan of comodo, far too interfering
19:17<ST2>setting it is a bit hard, yeah
19:18<ST2>but at least is highly costumizable :D
19:18<ST2>"setting it" as you want :D
19:18<iniazi>Aside from a few false positive, avast is probably the fastest and one of the best databases and least amount of false positives... and low overhead. or atleast was about 2 years ago
19:23<ST2>damn, was trying to get you an example about it (and IRC) but I use a bouncer - as most of ppl here ^^
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19:33<iniazi>ST2: i tried it on a new win8.1 box that I have... it only has the windows builtin firewall/defender (default settings)... its about 3 weeks old. and the same issue. Its something to do with my fios router probably.
19:33<iniazi>don't have any other problems... is there a way to turn on debugging for openttd? let me try wireshark i guess
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19:43<ST2>well, and I'm bothering myselg with a person that knows Wireshark? other software are milk and cookies
19:44<iniazi>basically it connects and does a post: "POST /bananas HTTP/1.0\r\n" and '3161' and then no response
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19:46<iniazi>i'm just gonna give up on it for now. Someday, I may reset my fios router to default settings, and I bet its the fios router thats probably doing it...
19:47<iniazi>thats the only common thing between this and the other host
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19:51<iniazi>generally openttd is great.. the download interface usually works great, and you can download and upload pretty easily. Have been playing tt, off and on since the original game came out. now I have my 8 and 10 year old sons playing it too. :)
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 06 00:00:23 2014