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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-09

---Logopened Tue Sep 09 00:00:36 2014
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07:22<Eddi|zuHause> raise generic.ScriptError("Using a unit is in switch-ranges is not (temporarily) not supported", value.pos) <-- that has a spurious "not"...
07:24<__ln__>maybe it should be parsed as "temporarily... yeah right.. not!"
07:27<b_jonas>I should put vehicles in groups immediately as I create them, because it's much more pain to group them later.
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07:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, this is now not a CF failure: https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/eddi-nml/8/console
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07:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that does not sound like a file i modified
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure whether http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/nml_call_procedure.diff is the right approach for http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=48891&p=1131042#p1131042
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: "make regression" works fine here.
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: also, i didn't actually do anything, i just pulled from nml and pushed
07:47<@planetmaker>well, the build on push failed. First it failed do to some oversight during some server changes. But this is something in the repo. Which is different from NML repo
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i don't know what's different. it works here.
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the repo is corrupted?
07:49<@planetmaker>nope
07:49<@planetmaker>hg verify is clean
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>i just made a clean clone, and it still works...
07:50<@planetmaker>and for sure, we changed regressions during update of nml py2->py3
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>well, i'm fairly sure that i pulled all those changes...
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>what's the easiest way to diff two clones?
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i can't find any changes to regression, except for my adding a "comment" regression
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm fairly convinced that this has nothing to do with anything i ever did.
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>so it must be a compile farm problem
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08:04<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: this sounds more like something went wrong during checkout, like file was cut off...
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>i never touched ternaryop.py
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>so it makes no sense...
08:12<keoz>hello
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08:17<@planetmaker>well, I shall have a look at it again, though a bit later, Eddi|zuHause
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08:50<Eddi|zuHause>"california's once highest roller coaster 'colossus' partially collapsed after a fire broke out during construction work"
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10:14<@planetmaker>@ports
10:14<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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10:33<Eddi|zuHause>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/plnkdbgmm <-- something doesn't look right here. why does NML access var 7B?
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10:34<Eddi|zuHause>i guess it didn't recognize "bulk_wagon_cb_capacity_switch" as a constant, and tries to invoke variable parameter evaluation here...
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10:38<andythenorth>trying to figure out how the fuck my ship grf broke pikka’s trains
10:39<andythenorth>which bit of the newgrf spec gives me a cb to fuck up train loading
10:39*andythenorth is at work, trying to debug savegames that miss grfs
10:41<andythenorth>grumpy
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13:06<Eddi|zuHause>i'm somewhat stuck. i can't find a way to get the action2 id into a constant numeric, because at the time param_function is evaluated, that seems to not have been determined yet
13:06<Rubidium>action6 to the rescue?
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>you can't action6 an action2
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>must be a compile time constant
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/nml_call_procedure2.diff <-- my current state
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>i also can't access the "feature" in this place, which is needed to get the action2 id
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13:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: wouldn’t the supply delivery parameter be scaled to the distance between industries?
13:42<andythenorth>so measure that?
13:42<andythenorth>do the median or something
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>you can't really measure that.
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13:44<Eddi|zuHause>you need to make a decent guess at game start and run with that
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>you can run a few map creations and take an average
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>you can even script that...
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>but in the end, the newgrf must take values that are available at game start without looking at each industry
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26808 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-09-09 17:46:14 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 26 changes by juanjo
13:46<@DorpsGek>hebrew - 3 changes by rril
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:46<@DorpsGek>spanish - 7 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
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14:06<@Alberth>andythenorth: Ladycross passenger tram seems to shuffle its wagons :p
14:10<andythenorth>that sounds like a bug
14:11<b_jonas>ok, so now I need to fix this train route
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14:12<b_jonas>I think I should tear it down and rebuild, then rebuild the other coal network too
14:12<b_jonas>they're bad
14:13<@Alberth>is the Buildwas tram really supposed to be 5 tiles long?
14:13<andythenorth>new watch!
14:13<andythenorth>humanity is saved!
14:13<@Alberth>\o/
14:14<andythenorth>Alberth: also the buildwas is all engines :)
14:14<andythenorth>and they’re double-engines even
14:15<andythenorth>ladycross is a victim of unfinished offsets
14:15<@Alberth>yeah, it misses 9 plumes of smoke!
14:16<@Alberth>you wouldn't be able to see the city any more :p
14:19-!-luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
14:20<andythenorth>Alberth: but how’s the gameplay? o_O
14:21<andythenorth>I’m obviously going to delete everything 3 times before 1.0, so no point finishing the graphics yet ;)
14:21<@Alberth>seems ok, although the renewed city growsth script is making a mess :)
14:22<andythenorth>the aim is to provide one obvious vehicle choice for any situation
14:22<andythenorth>I don’t think an RV set has achieved that yet
14:22*Alberth doesn't have RVs yet :p
14:23<andythenorth>:P
14:23<@Alberth>when is road hog supposed to have RVs?
14:23<b_jonas>5 tiles long tram? what?
14:23<b_jonas>um, how many articulation point does that have?
14:24<b_jonas>I mean, real trams can be quite long, but those have multiple articlation points
14:25<@Alberth>it consists of 10 engines :p
14:25<b_jonas>ok wait, more useful question. is this new cargo distribution system useful for when I want to build feeder lines for cargo that travels both ways on the same line, like passengers or valuables?
14:25<andythenorth>Alberth: telling you intro dates is cheating o_O
14:26<andythenorth>but 1920
14:26<andythenorth>the set is about 15 years behind RL because the early trucks and buses handled only a few tonnes
14:26<andythenorth>and also trams are good
14:26<@Alberth>b_jonas: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/slenley.png
14:27<@Alberth>ok, takes a few more years, now in 1886 :)
14:27<@Alberth>b_jonas: yes
14:27<b_jonas>10 carriages. I see.
14:28<b_jonas>that's quite long, I don't think such a long tram exists in real life
14:28<@Alberth>that's ok, it's a game
14:28<b_jonas>but if single tram carriages in ottd can't have articulation points in them then it could be simulating a four-carriage tram actually, in which case it's more realistic
14:28<b_jonas>I just hope it doesn't collide with itself
14:29<andythenorth>it’s also made up 10 double fairlies
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14:29<Miauw>Uh
14:29<Miauw>My busses aren't leaving hte depot
14:29<@Alberth>b_jonas: you're looking at the year 1886 in that picture
14:29<Miauw>They simply refuse to leave
14:29<Miauw>There's no reason why they don
14:29<Miauw>t
14:29<Miauw>Anyone?
14:29<@Alberth>so please don't talk about realism :p
14:30<b_jonas>Miauw: maybe there's a broken down bus right at the exit? or the road isn't connected to the depot because there's a height difference or because you forgot to build it?
14:30<andythenorth>also trams can be quite long https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8478/8231946750_be3a0c2df8_z.jpg
14:30<Miauw>The depot worked fine before
14:30<@Alberth>depot not connected to the road, or no orders?
14:30<Miauw>It recently stopped working
14:30<Miauw>Orders are fine
14:30<b_jonas>Miauw: is it maybe stopped (showing a red bullet)?
14:30<Miauw>All of the buses are heading
14:30<Miauw>goddamnit
14:30<Miauw>there was a stopped bus right in front o fhtat
14:31<Miauw>for no reason at all
14:31<andythenorth>can anyone debug this issue where FIRS has broken UKRS 2, (reported in the Squid thread)
14:31<andythenorth>?
14:31<andythenorth>I am stumped
14:31<@Alberth>andythenorth: it's lomo in reality, with such long trains :)
14:31<Miauw>obscured by the depot and trees
14:32-!-luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
14:32<andythenorth>in model railroad world there’s a saying - another entry from the “there’s a prototype for everything” department
14:33<andythenorth>usually with story or photo of bizarre thing
14:36<Miauw>what is said saying
14:37<Miauw>hm
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14:37<Miauw>i want to build a bus station next to my dock but i've ran out of trees
14:37<Miauw>tree-space, that is
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14:46<b_jonas>Miauw: you may be able to increase the town rating by just transporting stuff to the dock for a while
14:46<Miauw>Yeah
14:46<Miauw>It's fine now
14:46<b_jonas>and sometimes you have to plan ahead, and build stations first, other things that break the town rating later
14:46<Miauw>Went from apalling to mediocre at the end of the year
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14:51<b_jonas>argh, I completely forgot how to build good railway lines
14:54<b_jonas>ok, maybe I never really knew
15:00<@peter1138>A -> B
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15:19<Wolf01>hello
15:21<b_jonas>argh, I messed up the signal directions
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>i think my approach is wrong :/
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17:16<NGC3982>http://replygif.net/i/448.gif
17:16<NGC3982>And.
17:16<NGC3982>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpDn4-Na5co
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17:35<Wolf01>'night all
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17:53<b_jonas>argh, this station entrance got ugly
17:53<b_jonas>I put the entrance junction too far from the entrance
17:53<b_jonas>I'll rebuild it again
17:56<andythenorth>ugly stations are ugly
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17:58<b_jonas>I'm taking too many years to build this track
17:58<b_jonas>good thing I had the precaution to have a small temporary train feed the power station so it doesn't choose to close
17:59<andythenorth>build while paused
17:59<andythenorth>is your friend
17:59<frosch123>night
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18:01<b_jonas>ok, I think the line from one coal mine is now ready to start, but I'll then have to connect the other coal station too
18:04<andythenorth>b_jonas is teddy-bear ottd-playing
18:06-!-Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-46-133.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
18:06<andythenorth>ho ho
18:06<Pikka>oh no
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18:07<andythenorth>pie
18:07<Pikka>mmmmmm pie
18:07<andythenorth>but are your assignments done?
18:07<Pikka>one out of two ain't bad
18:08<andythenorth>not bad
18:08*andythenorth is practicing being parental
18:08<andythenorth>child #1 has started proper school
18:08<Pikka>I've got nearly four hours to do the second one, so I'm not panicking yet :)
18:08<andythenorth>ages
18:08<andythenorth>plenty of time
18:08<andythenorth>child #1 has also drawn stuff for ottd, mostly (100%) in pink
18:09<andythenorth>fireworks engine pulling a fireworks carriage
18:09<Pikka>pink's a good colour
18:09<andythenorth>he can only be bothered to do the – views though
18:09<andythenorth>and his sprite covers 3 tiles
18:09<Pikka>well
18:09<andythenorth>I tried explaining
18:09<Pikka>only being bothered to do the - views describes about 75% of newgrf artists, doesn't it?
18:10<andythenorth>"artists"
18:10<Pikka>anyone can be an artist
18:10<Pikka>if anything can be art
18:11<andythenorth>there are whole fricking proper rants on the false dichotomy between ‘art’ and ‘technical'
18:11<andythenorth>and the class history of it and all the other shit
18:11<andythenorth>all I can see here is
18:11<andythenorth>pikka, MB, V453000 andythenorth et al do both drawing and code
18:11<andythenorth>also zephyris and others
18:12<andythenorth>which oddly coincides with successful newgrfs
18:12-!-MTsPony [~MTsPony@008-086-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit []
18:12<andythenorth>whereas people who do it ‘properly’ respecting all the distinctions - artists, coders, project managers
18:12<Pikka>there were a few back in the day
18:12<Pikka>US Set, planeset, tropic etc
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18:13<@planetmaker>well, it can work both ways. But it helps, if you got understanding of the other part
18:13<Pikka>but yes, the ones where everyone sits in their corner are the ones where nobody takes responsibility for making things happen
18:13<Pikka>Worley's UKSet episode 6 seems to have ground to a halt...
18:14<andythenorth>I also think hiding behind the distinctions is a direct attempt to mask deep personal inadequacy
18:14<andythenorth>but that’s just my view :P
18:14*andythenorth has been thinking
18:14<andythenorth>drinking / thinking /s
18:14<andythenorth>I have been doing mods a service
18:14<andythenorth>and not commenting on the brit thread
18:14<andythenorth>saving you wear and tear on deleting my posts
18:15<Pikka>well
18:15<Pikka>what can one say that hasn't been said before?
18:15<andythenorth>given enough time to think about it?
18:15<andythenorth>sure there’s something
18:15<Pikka>probably
18:15<Pikka>but I'm sure someone would remove it
18:16<andythenorth>also whoever modded out my silly comments somewhere recently - also deleted MBs sensible comments
18:16<Pikka>hehe
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18:16<@planetmaker>silly moderator
18:16<Pikka>that was an interesting discussion :)
18:17<Pikka>I think we decided to put your comment back, but then no-one could be bothered :)
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18:17<Pikka>c'est la thing
18:17<andythenorth>vie
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18:17<Pikka>oui
18:18<Pikka>not to mention guerre
18:18<andythenorth>all of that
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18:18<@planetmaker>just don't mention the war ;)
18:18<andythenorth>should I change FIRS?
18:18<andythenorth>there are loads of problems
18:18<Pikka>they're not problems, just cute quirks. I say leave 'em
18:18<@planetmaker>you want other problems?
18:18<andythenorth>I need to expand the industry window text to say “deliver 8t of metal to get 4t of supplies and 4t of other supplies"
18:19<andythenorth>also FIRS has broken UKRS 2 trains, but only if you use a specific ship from Squid.
18:19<Pikka>sounds plausible
18:19<andythenorth>and I need to fix the game’s ‘broken’ payment model, but not in the usual direction
18:19<@planetmaker>today s/o complained that opengfx+industries removed fruit, steel and paper vehicles and wagons
18:20<@planetmaker>he's using some kind of New Train Set NewGRF. Is that the new thing?
18:21<andythenorth>It’s the New new thing
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18:22<andythenorth>Pikka: what is assignment? Making or writing?
18:22<Pikka>making
18:22<Pikka>"arting"
18:23<andythenorth>arting
18:23<Pikka>actual submission is on friday but I have to talk about it today, so I have to at least have it done enough to show.
18:23<Pikka>I think
18:23<@planetmaker>oh, a moderator found the thread with the user who was so sure that anything he found somewhere in the net is allowed for distribution
18:23<andythenorth>whatever you art, make sure it’s a critical perspective on the dialectic surrounding post-colonial discourse
18:23*Pikka puts on my robe and moderator hat
18:23<andythenorth>this is post-colonial discourse
18:24<andythenorth>as you are in post-colonial and I am talking to you
18:24<andythenorth>or is still colonial?
18:24<andythenorth>probably
18:24<Pikka>andythenorth, it's vis com with a mob of fashion students, so there's not too much crtical perspectives of post-colonial discourse happening
18:24<Pikka>not that I'm a snob about fashion students of course
18:24<andythenorth>raise the game
18:25<andythenorth>or make a line of watches
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18:30<Pikka>why are we still talking about infrastructure sharing?
18:30<Pikka>what does infrastructure sharing do that being in the same company doesn't do with a hundred times fewer problems?
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18:31<b_jonas>oh finally
18:31<andythenorth>same reason we talk about roadtypes
18:31<andythenorth>like picking a scab
18:31<b_jonas>I fixed the loading station so that trains that don't fit go to a waiting loop
18:31<Pikka>roadtypes would actually be worthwhile though. and pretty.
18:31<Pikka>infrastructure sharing is just a mess of conflicting ideas
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18:31<@planetmaker>Pikka, it allows to separate the achievement to a more personal level :)
18:32<andythenorth>to me, infrastructure sharing is anti the whole game
18:32<andythenorth>the game is tile based
18:32<andythenorth>only so much can be on a tile
18:32<andythenorth>make choices
18:32<andythenorth>but also I have never tried it
18:33<b_jonas>wait damn
18:33<b_jonas>this still doesn't work
18:33<Pikka>back to the drawing board, b_jonas
18:34<andythenorth>delete it all
18:34<andythenorth>that’s what I do
18:34<@planetmaker>:)
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18:36<@peter1138>andythenorth, sounds like you don't know what infrastructure sharing is...
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18:39<andythenorth>I can run my trains on your tracks?
18:39<andythenorth>you get money
18:39<andythenorth>and we can fuck with each other by stopping trains?
18:39<@planetmaker>basically
18:39<andythenorth>it’s equivalent of RL trackage rights
18:39<andythenorth>could do it in Railroad Tycoon 3
18:40<@peter1138>there can only be one game script at a time right?
18:40<andythenorth>yes
18:41<@peter1138>there goes my idea of delegating IS to a GS :p
18:41<andythenorth>sad times
18:46<andythenorth>I dunno
18:46<andythenorth>is it bed time?
18:46<Pikka>hard to tell
18:46<andythenorth>Pikka: can you render a cone and a sphere, and call that an assignment?
18:46<andythenorth>is it arting?
18:46<Pikka>something along those lines
18:47<Pikka>it's probably going to be lines in illustrator for today
18:47<andythenorth>ooh
18:47<Pikka>and rendering for fritag
18:47<andythenorth>I used to draw the splines in illustrator and then extrude them
18:47<andythenorth>because I couldn’t work mesh tools
18:47<andythenorth>funny old app, illustrator
18:48<Pikka>si
18:48<andythenorth>si
18:48<andythenorth>also bon nuit etc
18:48<andythenorth>adios
18:48<andythenorth>adieu
18:48<Pikka>goondight
18:48<andythenorth>a demain
18:48<andythenorth>or whenever
18:48<andythenorth>I will try not to do bad things in the forums
18:48<andythenorth>bye
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19:03<Eddi|zuHause>isn't it "bonne nuit"?
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20:03<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: it is :)
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---Logclosed Wed Sep 10 00:00:39 2014