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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-10

---Logopened Wed Sep 10 00:00:39 2014
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01:27<andythenorth>oh noes
01:27<andythenorth>pikka is phoning in
01:27<Pikkaphone>aren't I just
01:27<andythenorth>is it done?
01:28<Pikkaphone>the presentation is, yes
01:28<Pikkaphone>now I have to make it look good for submission by Friday
01:28<andythenorth>just use more radiosity
01:28*andythenorth says words
01:29<andythenorth>how is BNE? I am speaking to it at 9am UK time
01:29<andythenorth>weather nice?
01:29<andythenorth>any typhoons nearby?
01:29<andythenorth>crocs behaving?
01:29<Pikkaphone>a bit cloudy, but alright. No typhoons that I've seen
01:29<andythenorth>politicians being naughty?
01:29<Pikkaphone>crocs behaving badly
01:30<Pikkaphone> politicians worse than crocs
01:30<andythenorth>pretty standard then
01:30<andythenorth>all is well in the land belonging to the queen
01:30<Pikkaphone>at the moment
01:31<Pikkaphone>apparently Scottish independence is going to break our Constitution and then anarchy will reign
01:32<Pikkaphone>so that's something to look forward to.
01:34<andythenorth>that will be interesting
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01:46<Pikkaphone>any typhoons there, then?
01:47<andythenorth>not so many
01:47<andythenorth>a eurofighter flew over my house a few months back
01:47<andythenorth>not the same
01:47<Pikkaphone>was it one of ours?
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01:56<andythenorth>an AU one?
01:56<andythenorth>don’t know, it was going quite fast, couldn’t hear the accent
01:56<andythenorth>it made a lot of noise, do Australians do that?
01:58<Pikkaphone>not an AU one, no
01:59<andythenorth>Alberth has introduced a new bug to Iron Horse
01:59<andythenorth>previously it was just ‘behaviour'
01:59<andythenorth>now he has pointed out the problem, it’s definitely a bug
01:59<Pikkaphone>a bug, what is it?
02:09<andythenorth>broke the combine harvester
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02:14<Pikkaphone>not that combine cars aren't a bad feature
02:15*Pikkaphone gets out
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05:32<chuma>hi all!
05:32<chuma>is there anyone from Ukraine ?
05:33<__ln__>which ukraine?
05:34<chuma>what does it mean which?
05:34<chuma>ukrainian ukraine
05:35<@peter1138>i'm guess there is at least one person from ukraine
05:35<Xaroth|Work>and at least one person not from ukraine
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05:44<Eddi|zuHause>aren't we all ukrainians?
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06:16<andythenorth>bad features
06:16<@peter1138>fad beatures
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06:20<Eddi|zuHause>fat beatles?
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06:24<Eddi|zuHause>"Microsoft wants to buy Mojang"
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12:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26809 trunk/src/music_gui.cpp (2014-09-10 16:33:42 UTC)
12:33<@DorpsGek>-Fix: do not dereference the -1 index of the file names array of music files. It definitely breaks on m68k, and might cause failures on other platforms as well
12:53<FLHerne>Someone actually uses OTTD on m68k?
12:54<@Alberth>afaik, the debian build just crashed
12:55<@planetmaker>the beauty of having many test platforms :)
12:55<@Alberth>it's amazing how long such bugs linger in the code
12:56<@planetmaker>yeah. And also how they're actually found :)
12:56<Rubidium>the real question is: how many weird "openttd does not start" bug reports does this fix?
12:57<@planetmaker>indeed :)
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13:29<Wolf01>hello o/
13:29<@Alberth>hi hi
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26810 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-09-10 17:45:58 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>dutch - 76 changes by habell
13:46<@DorpsGek>spanish - 6 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
13:46<@DorpsGek>swedish - 51 changes by spacejens
13:46<@DorpsGek>welsh - 26 changes by kazzie
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14:34<andythenorth>Alberth: you made another bug :D
14:43<andythenorth>dunno if I can fix this one
14:44<andythenorth>it’s either BAD FEATURE
14:44<andythenorth>or it is an ottd issue :P
14:44<andythenorth>if I move the mail to first unit of articulated consist, the livery will be wrong (should be pax)
14:45<andythenorth>imho ottd should do a better job of identifying the refittability
14:45<andythenorth>or I should remove this vehicle
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15:05<@Alberth>yeah, it's very weird, you'd say ottd would understand what is refittable, as it says so itself
15:10<andythenorth>probably just something added in a hurry, without finding an edge case?
15:10<andythenorth>refittability is checked on the whole articulated vehicle, and the text is placed on the front vehicle?
15:11*andythenorth has never looked at UI code
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15:14<b_jonas>if I use the convert rail type tool to upgrade a bridge or tunnel, do I have to pay the full price for digging the tunnel or building the bridge again, or do I only pay for the rails on it?
15:15<@planetmaker>try it and see?
15:15<andythenorth>use shift?
15:16<andythenorth>also hi planetmaker
15:16<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth :)
15:18<andythenorth>this is cute
15:18<b_jonas>I'll try in about 15 in-game years when I get the first monorails.
15:18<b_jonas>Though it might be irrelevant, because at that point I might not just want to upgrade the rails on bridges, but rebuild bridges to tubular ones. I think the convert tool can't automatically do that yet, right?
15:19<b_jonas>and yes, shift key is very useful
15:19<b_jonas>I love that feature
15:19<b_jonas>it's one of the good parts of the interface of ttd (there are some bad parts too)
15:19*andythenorth is shocked to hear that
15:20<@planetmaker>interesting brick-land :)
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15:25<@Alberth>I never use the shift key :p
15:26<@planetmaker>if you're not interested in money in OpenTTD you don't need it. Normally at least
15:26<b_jonas>I use shift to cancel drag-drops, and sometimes use it to check prices of expensive items
15:26<@planetmaker>it's very useful if you run danger to accidentially terraform a giant area. Just hold shift and let it go unharmed
15:26<b_jonas>it can also validate some conditions
15:27<b_jonas>like, test whether I could actually build a station
15:29<andythenorth>I used it to learn not to build over farm fields at game start
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15:32<b_jonas>andythenorth: yeah, though right now I play on easy difficulty for the fun so I didn't have to worry about that
15:32<b_jonas>(as in, low construction prices, starting in 1950, very high initial loan limit)
15:32<b_jonas>this time I'm not trying to show I can make a profitable company early
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15:42<b_jonas>oh great, SH '30' came out!
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>that hasn't happened to me in like 10 years
15:56<andythenorth>wtf is the sound effect on the Twinhills Passenger Tram? :o
15:57<andythenorth>someone else try it in Road Hog, tell me I’m not insane?
15:57<andythenorth>available ~1990
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15:59<andythenorth>it sounds like laughing
15:59<andythenorth>toyland effect?
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16:05<@Alberth>did you change smoke on 2-4-0 Chaplin since iron horse RC 4 ?
16:05<@Alberth>either the smoke comes out at the wrong end, or the engine is backwards :p
16:06<@Alberth> although being chaplin I guess that would be ok :)
16:09<@Alberth>interestingly my other trains drive in the right direction :p
16:11<frosch123>already complained about that :p andy said it is intentional :p
16:11<frosch123>weird realism
16:11<@Alberth>ok :)
16:12<andythenorth>I could change it
16:12<andythenorth>I thought players liked all this backwards stuff
16:12<andythenorth>although the smoke is a problem :P
16:12<andythenorth>backwards sounds like a BAD FEATURE
16:13<frosch123>it just needs a text in the purchase list: may drive backwards if in good mood
16:13<andythenorth>well purchase text is broken in Iron Horse :P
16:13<andythenorth>it’s the only bit of partial compile I couldn’t make work
16:13<andythenorth>so I’m ignoring it
16:13<andythenorth>partial compile is so much faster that it’s worth it
16:13<@Alberth>backward engine is fine, imho
16:14<andythenorth>I would need to move the smoke though
16:14<@Alberth>that would be nice indeed
16:14<andythenorth>means I have to read random bits myself I think
16:14<andythenorth>not just use a random switch?
16:15<andythenorth>smoke would need same random result reliably as vehicle
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16:15<andythenorth>I could just alternate on even / odd days :P
16:15<User>hello, were does openttd save its config?
16:15<andythenorth>tempted to remove it
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16:15<Eddi|zuHause>random switches can do that
16:16<andythenorth>frosch123: did you think it was actually broken?
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>do the same random decision in different places
16:16<@Alberth>Guest360: it is explained in the readme file afaik
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>just make sure you give the same ratios
16:16<andythenorth>does anyone want to patch it? :P
16:16<frosch123>andythenorth: i built only one engine, so i just thought it was a bug :p
16:16*andythenorth needs to go and try and find £250k
16:16<andythenorth>smoke might have to wait
16:16<andythenorth>patches are welcome
16:16<andythenorth>IH is easy code
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>or you don't randomize at all, and just let the player flip it by ctrl+click
16:17<andythenorth>not possible, three-part vehicles
16:17<andythenorth>sacrificed ctrl-click
16:17<@Alberth>randomize is much more fun :)
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>i wondered for CETS if it was possible to deterministically flip every second vehicle
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>like on purchase read the number of vehicles
16:19<andythenorth>interesting idea
16:19<andythenorth>sounds like an easy patch if not done :P
16:19<frosch123>var 84
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16:20<b_jonas>argh I've built this same bridge like seven times because I couldn't determine how long it has to be for the junction to work well
16:20<andythenorth>there are some vars that could be abused
16:21<b_jonas>at least I hope the junction will work correctly
16:21*andythenorth wonders about trying xeno’s paradox with the target xxyy var
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but is this valid during the articulated callback?
16:21<andythenorth>closer you get, slower the vehicle...
16:21<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: why that?
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: because i need to decide at that point whether the steering wagon of the ICE2 is in front or at the back
16:22<frosch123>does that affect vehicle length or something important?
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise i get a lot of dynamic whatever
16:22<frosch123>why does it inclufence the articulation?
16:22<b_jonas>how smart is the route planner these days? does it check for vehicles past signals?
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes. length is also affected
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>and lots of other stuff which would otherwise be constant would have to be dynamified
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>which it wouldn't need if i could insert the articulated parts at different places
16:24<frosch123>anyway, it is available during construction
16:24<frosch123>b_jonas: it checks for the next n signals being red
16:25<frosch123>if your vehicle cause signals to turn red, othe rtrains will be prefer other paths
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: it looks at the signals and the reservation of the tracks some distance ahead, for trains. for trucks it's totally dumb.
16:25<frosch123>if you are using path signals, then the path reservations are avoided by other trains
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16:26<andythenorth>I like the idea of being able to cycle reversed / not reversed
16:26<frosch123>for trucks it checks drive-through stops
16:26<b_jonas>frosch123: great! that makes it much easier
16:26<andythenorth>although maybe the predictability it a bit bland
16:27<andythenorth>sometimes I think a livery or variations UI might be wise
16:27<andythenorth>other times I think it’s bad idea
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>well particularly for the ICE2 the strict alteration would make sense, because you'd probably want to attach them back-to-back
16:30<andythenorth>bah this one is reversed in depot, but not game
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16:32<b_jonas>what are you trying to reverse? train engines? tram engines?
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16:32<andythenorth>train engines
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16:50<berndj-blackout>remedial openttd: how do i make towns/cities grow MOAR? is it just a matter of # of deliveries - the more deliveries, the more growth?
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16:51<berndj-blackout>my cities seem to max out at 20-40 thousand inhabitants, but i've seen screenshots of 200 thousand plus
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16:54<@planetmaker>berndj-blackout, it's more a matter of patience.
16:55<@planetmaker>and town growth speed. And giving it the right conditions for growth. For using the right (or probably no) town growth game script. And for using the right houses NewGRF
16:56<@planetmaker>without game script, 5 well-serviced station in the town or its vicinity suffice to cause highest growth speed. Set in the settings to fastest and it will grow in no time
16:56<@planetmaker>you can help town growth by building the roads for it
16:57<@planetmaker>making sure there are no dead-end roads within the town helps, too
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17:05<b_jonas>they call this improved town layout? the town still keeps blocking the ends of its own roads with buildings
17:08<berndj-blackout>planetmaker, i've sort of inferred the road-building bit, although i bump into conflicts between the needs of an expanding road network and my rail network
17:08<+glx>that's why it's better to place roads by yourself b_jonas :)
17:10<b_jonas>yeah, that's what I'm doing
17:10<@planetmaker>b_jonas, you wrongly assume that the improvement parameter was 'town growth'
17:10<b_jonas>stupid train, why did you come in here?
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17:18<b_jonas>planetmaker: does it improve how much towns grow, making it a gradual function of how much I transport rather than keeping it a yes-no thing?
17:18<b_jonas>as opposed to the town layout?
17:19<Sylf>without town growth game script, how much you transport doesn't matter
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17:20<Sylf>the only thing that matter is number of stations in or by the city that are serviced regularly, up to 5 of them
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17:21<berndj-blackout>stations... rail? road? does it even matter?
17:25<Sylf>bus stops, airport, sea port, rail stations... doesn't matter
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17:34<b_jonas>Sylf: ok, but that still explains why my towns don't grow much
17:34<b_jonas>I only have one station in most of them
17:34<b_jonas>I built one, and sent only a few buses, because I thought it was enough
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17:35<Sylf>having only 1 station only helps so much.
17:35<Sylf>more per town, up to 5, is better
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17:46<berndj-blackout>so a city with 5 bus stops will grow just as fast as if it had 5 train stations, assuming all are serviced regularly?
17:47<@peter1138>station is a station
17:48<berndj-blackout>so the only reason to build train stations is the greater potential for profit?
17:48<Sylf>5 bus stations with station ratings of 30% are just as effective as 5 train stations with station ratings of 60%
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17:49<berndj-blackout>so i've been massively overbuilding bus stations?
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17:49<Sylf>or you just don't like to see 2000 people waiting at your bus stations
17:49<@planetmaker>Sylf: I don't think so. The rating actually matters
17:50<berndj-blackout>it makes the municipality hate you, right?
17:50<@planetmaker>but 5 well-serviced bus stations are as good as giant stations
17:50<@planetmaker>it does that at least, yes, berndj-blackout
17:50<Sylf>I thought the town grows just as fast as long as the stations are serviced regularly
17:51<Sylf>back to the game mechanics page I go....
17:51<@planetmaker>hm, maybe, dunno. and too tired to look up :)
17:51<@planetmaker>good night :)
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17:52<Sylf>gn, pm
17:52<Sylf>what I see is "Town growth can be accelerated by loading and unloading at least one item of cargo at up to five stations within town influence within a two month period. It does not matter which cargos are loaded/unloaded."
17:53<@peter1138>no, rating doesn't matter, just that they're serviced
17:55<Sylf>so, you build 5 bus stations in the middle of the town, unleash 1 bus to service them, build road grids everywhere, and it'll keep growing
17:56<Sylf>and the town should hate you for only providing 1 bus for the town of 1 million, but actually they'll love you according to the town rating
17:56<berndj-blackout>anyone want to critique my current game?
17:57<berndj-blackout>i try to play a mix between organic networks and efficiency, so i don't even try to make junctionary-worthy junctions
18:00<andythenorth>so can anyone else add bugs to Iron Horse?
18:00<andythenorth>I have 5 things to do before 1.0.0 right now
18:00<andythenorth>can you spoil my day?
18:00<Sylf>let me take a peek at your bug tracker then
18:01<Sylf>oh yeah, I do have one for iron horse
18:02<Sylf>yup, I'm ready to ruin your day
18:03<Sylf>the loaded wagons don't show loaded sprites in the depots
18:09<andythenorth>good spot
18:10<andythenorth>added an issue? Or I can
18:10<andythenorth>I know the rough cause
18:10<Sylf>I'll add it
18:11<Sylf>oh, I can't add it if I'm not a member of the project?
18:11<Sylf>oh, wrong tab
18:17<andythenorth>also bed time
18:17<andythenorth>happy bug hunting
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