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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-13

---Logopened Sat Sep 13 00:00:50 2014
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01:40<andythenorth>o/
01:42<Rubidium>good morning
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02:45<andythenorth>where is everyone? It’s the middle of the day already
02:47<Eddi|zuHause>only if you have kids
02:48<andythenorth>oh we’re hiding vehicles now?
02:49*andythenorth had better update trunk
02:49<andythenorth>interesting
02:55*andythenorth compiles
02:55<andythenorth>that’s neat
02:56<andythenorth>whole issue would be better if newgrf authors got better at design, but the hiding implementation is nice
03:06<@peter1138>hi
03:12-!-Progman [~progman@p57A18D92.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
03:16-!-Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-46-133.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
03:21<andythenorth>it’s a hover pikka
03:22<Pikka>oui
03:22<Pikka>a hover caboose
03:24<andythenorth>randomised
03:24<andythenorth>shall we do a hover set?
03:24<andythenorth>hover-hovs
03:25<Pikka>narrow gauge hovercabeese
03:27<andythenorth>there are no hover-types
03:27<andythenorth>can’t have narrow gauge
03:27<Pikka>wetrails
03:27<Pikka>and grassrails
03:27<Pikka>we can have hovers which can go over land and water
03:28<Pikka>hmm
03:28<Pikka>add "can/must be built on water" to railtype spec
03:28<andythenorth>rails on water
03:28<Pikka>yes
03:29<@planetmaker>moin
03:29<Pikka>call them shipping lanes, replace all ships with "trains"
03:29<andythenorth>hovers behave like trains? Obey signals?
03:29<Pikka>"making ships more interesting", job done
03:29<andythenorth>problem with hovers
03:29<@planetmaker>concept of wetrail? :)
03:29<andythenorth>people would ask for ‘more hover levels'
03:29<andythenorth>also ‘underground hovers'
03:29<Pikka>horsedrawn hovers for early years
03:30*andythenorth takes ant-acids washed down with black coffee
03:30<andythenorth>in the evening, for variety, I wash them down with wine
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03:30<andythenorth>seems to keep everything in balance
03:30<Pikka>they are the two basic food groups, after all
03:31<Pikka>caffeine and alcohol
03:31<andythenorth>and medication
03:31<Pikka>and pie
03:31<andythenorth>all of life there
03:31<@planetmaker>the latter two are valuables :)
03:31<andythenorth>hover hog
03:31<andythenorth>hover horse?
03:31<andythenorth>hover squid?
03:32<Pikka>lunar rosters?
03:33<Pikka>is dan still keen on that?
03:33<andythenorth>probly :)
03:33<andythenorth>http://600v.deviantart.com/art/270309-squid-hover-2-117265001
03:33<andythenorth>maybe more of this futurism crap http://600v.deviantart.com/art/Got-Gas-384741291
03:33<andythenorth>it’s kind of unoriginal, but it looks good
03:34<Pikka>looks eminently uncrashworthy :D
03:34<andythenorth>http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq158/spearhalk/LoadedattheDrylandsort.jpg
03:34<andythenorth>apparently truck drivers didn’t like that one much ^
03:35<andythenorth>cab at the bumber height of the P16 coming the other way
03:35<andythenorth>log truck is 100-200t loaded
03:35<Pikka>excellent
03:35<@planetmaker>outch. But looks like nice gear for HEQS
03:35<andythenorth>http://www.spiritoftomorrow.com/the-logging-truck-story.html
03:36<andythenorth>train futurism crap http://600v.deviantart.com/art/Nuclear-Freight-Engine-352210583
03:37<Pikka>nuclear narrow-gauge
03:37<Pikka>add to hoss plz
03:37<andythenorth>futurisms roster?
03:37<andythenorth>to go with Jedi or whatever Vs thing is called
03:37<andythenorth>http://aconnoll.deviantart.com/art/Ridikulouslee-Kronic-Kustom-Bus-No-2-455446353
03:37<andythenorth>Pikka-bus
03:37<Pikka>needs a bigger spoiler
03:38<Pikka>and more chrome
03:46<andythenorth>what colour is chrome in game?
03:46<Rubidium>6?
03:47<Pikka>easily
03:52*andythenorth should fix horse smoke
03:52<andythenorth>but making wooden trains
03:53<Pikka>wooden horses
03:53<Pikka>do they smoke?
03:53<@planetmaker>sort of. But differently
03:56<Flygon>EVERYONE smoked in 1913!
03:56<Flygon>Even the horses!
03:58<andythenorth>apparently thomas is in the wrong place or something
03:58*andythenorth should go enquire
03:58-!-oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
04:10<andythenorth>so can I LOAD_TEMP in the constructor for visual effect cb result?
04:10<andythenorth>visual_effect_and_powered(LOAD_TEMP(BLAH), 0, DISABLE_WAGON_POWER)
04:10*andythenorth hasn’t tried yet
04:10<Pikka>you should try it
04:10<andythenorth>I should
04:10<andythenorth>this is how we learn
04:11<andythenorth>I’ll have to go read how switches work first :P
04:11<Pikka>silly NML
04:11<andythenorth>my nml understanding is poor
04:15<Pikka>oh, in the callback result.. I see.
04:16<Pikka>I don't know about the NML syntax but in theory, I don't see why not
04:16<andythenorth>me neither
04:16<andythenorth>let’s find out :P
04:18<andythenorth>nml hates me
04:18<andythenorth>I’ll have to do it the hard way
04:19<@planetmaker>you can LOAD_TEMP() anytime, if you initialized it before in the switch chain
04:20<@planetmaker>you can even, if you didn't. But results might be funky :)
04:20<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pbfgp0usz
04:20<@planetmaker>FIRS fences taught me that lesson :P
04:20<andythenorth>fails - expects a compile time integer constant
04:21<andythenorth>don’t really expect it to work tbh
04:22<@planetmaker>ah, there. well, I guess you need to make another switch where you query LOAD_TEMP(1) and then return appropriately
04:22<@planetmaker>though nml itself could probably be taught to understand this
04:22<andythenorth>if I tried to do the same in nfo, it would be possible, but would rely on advanced varaction 2 first
04:22<@planetmaker>but might be hard
04:22<andythenorth>I can get the outcome with vanilla switches
04:23<andythenorth>I just have to extend the vehicle codebase first :(
04:23<andythenorth>lot of work just to have tank engines going backwards
04:23<andythenorth>:P
04:23<@planetmaker>I think your complication in this case is not nml but your code generator. Honestly
04:25<@planetmaker>anyhow, it just needs another chained switch which queries drive direction
04:25<andythenorth>drive direction is always same ;)
04:25<andythenorth>can’t reverse articulated vehicles ;)
04:26<@planetmaker>well, going backward/forward
04:26<@planetmaker>whatever you try to distinguish here
04:26<andythenorth>and yes, the complication is trying to have one set of switches that works for all vehicles
04:27<andythenorth>also that every vehicle is a 3-part articulated consist :P
04:28<andythenorth>it’s definitely in the category of self-inflicted pain
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05:05<andythenorth>quick hide Alberth
05:05<andythenorth>there’s a UI for it now
05:05*Alberth hides self
05:07<@Alberth>everybody gone now?
05:08*Alberth unhides
05:08<@Alberth>apparently
05:08<andythenorth>hi Alberth
05:08<@Alberth>hi andy
05:09<@Alberth>fixed all things?
05:09<andythenorth>shame we don’t spy on people
05:09<andythenorth>we could track which vehicles are being hidden most
05:09<@Alberth>yeah, I wondered about that too
05:09-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d01c52d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
05:09<@Alberth>could be fun to see what vehicles are never ever used :p
05:09<@Alberth>quak
05:09<frosch123>moin
05:10<Pikka>could be fun to see what vehicles are never ever used :p <- every vehicle in av8 except the 707, 747 and A380.
05:10<Pikka>and whatever that ugly futuristic one that's bigger than the a380 is called
05:11<@Alberth>I think it changes in time, it seems logical to hide previous vehicles after you have converted away from them
05:11<Pikka>that's what vehicle retirement is for, isn't it?
05:11<@Alberth>yeah, some sets have a LONG expiration time though
05:12*andythenorth has never expiring vehicles
05:12<@Alberth>and way before that the engines are useless due to dropped reliability
05:12<andythenorth>also no breakdowns
05:12<@Alberth>you're missing all the fun of track building!
05:12<Pikka>you also play gs games which only take <10 in-game years
05:12<Pikka>so vehicle life is fairly irrelevant ;)
05:13<@Alberth>:)
05:13<andythenorth>I play 100 years in single player :)
05:13<andythenorth>also with Hard Target
05:14<Pikka>servicing as many trains as possible in as few depots as possible, with all the fun junctionaries that entails, is "fun"
05:14<andythenorth>they just get lost
05:14<Pikka>so I don't play with breakdowns off :)
05:14<andythenorth>also RVs don’t service
05:14<Pikka>you use service-at orders
05:14<andythenorth>I’m bored of setting those :P
05:14<Pikka>but not for RVs, I don't mind RVs getting lost
05:14<andythenorth>yak shaving
05:15<Pikka>did you play drain fewer yet?
05:15<andythenorth>no
05:15<andythenorth>reviews said it crashes on 9 out of 10 games on a mac
05:15<Pikka>splendid
05:15<andythenorth>so I didn't
05:15<andythenorth>also time
05:15<andythenorth>and also newgrf
05:15<Pikka>yes...
05:15<Pikka>I might have to get it at some point
05:16<Pikka>just so I can make a turbotrain for it
05:16<andythenorth>probably inevitable
05:17<andythenorth>hmm
05:17<andythenorth>I should unbreak buy menu text :(
05:17<andythenorth>how will you ever know all the things otherwise?
05:18<andythenorth>like ‘this train is 1,250hp on diesel, and 5,000hp on electric’
05:18<andythenorth>or ‘reefer cars have a payment bonus'
05:18<andythenorth>important things
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05:19<@peter1138>i played with no newgrfs these days
05:19<@peter1138>cos all those bad features
05:19<andythenorth>was it any worse?
05:20<@planetmaker>hm, alberth ate a clown for breakfast :)
05:21<Pikka>if it needs text to explain it, it's a bad feature
05:21<Pikka>that's rule 7
05:21<@Alberth>very possible :)
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>so speed and capacity are bad features?
05:26<@Alberth>only if you change them , I think
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05:33<Wolf01>ciao
05:34-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
05:35<@Alberth>moin
05:37-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
05:37<andythenorth>what if you don’t bother explaining, and just let people work it out?
05:40<andythenorth>in the old days, games came with a manual
05:40<andythenorth>you had to read it
05:40<Pikka>I don't know
05:40<Pikka>maybe I'm biased by the fact that no text means no translation :D
05:40<andythenorth>any buy menu text in Pineapplels
05:40<andythenorth>?
05:40<Pikka>nope
05:40<Pikka>I suppose industries will need text though
05:41<Pikka>and towns will need a manual
05:41<andythenorth>yes
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05:42<andythenorth>hmm
05:42<andythenorth>also refittable capacities on ships needs text. I think
05:42<andythenorth>everything else can go
05:42*andythenorth bbl
05:42<@Alberth>bye
05:43-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
05:43<Pikka>byebye
05:43<@Alberth>he is slow today :)
05:43<Pikka>is he?
05:43<@Alberth>just long enough to make us wonder to reply :)
05:43<@peter1138>10:21 < Pikka> if it needs text to explain it, it's a bad feature
05:43<@peter1138>then the whole game is a bad feature
05:44<Pikka>refering particularly to vehicle purchase menu text, peter1138
05:44<Pikka>not life in general
05:45<@peter1138>i extrapolated
05:45<@peter1138>based on these guys i'm playing a game with
05:46<Pikka>you filthy swine
05:46<Pikka>are cargo trams a good idea
05:46<Pikka>?
05:46<Pikka>should ask andy I suppose
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05:57<Wolf01>speaking of text to explain...
05:57<Wolf01>once a friend of mine asked if it was possible to add tooltips to the various buttons to explain their meaning... as tooltips are already there, I think it would be better to reduce their default timeout so new players see them
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06:12<@peter1138>Wolf01, agreed
06:14<@planetmaker>+1
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06:20<Eddi|zuHause>i've said this before: 250ms would be a useful value
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>instead of the 2s that it is now
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06:24<@planetmaker>it would
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06:37<@peter1138>bah way too easy to make money
06:39<Wolf01>do you think is possible to change all the buttons with modifiers to work without CTRL by changing them to dropdown?
06:42<@peter1138>possible, yes
06:44<Wolf01>and another problem I found: I often forget to disable the tool when I try to drag-scroll the window, so I'll end up with pieces of rail, road or even stations in the middle of nowhere
06:44<Wolf01>I need to think about this
06:45<@peter1138>left-drag-scroll?
06:46<Wolf01>with a pen or a finger is difficult
06:51<Wolf01>Rubidium, why am I blocked on the wiki?
06:53-!-andythenorth_ [~andytheno@213.205.227.168] has joined #openttd
06:53<frosch123>were you not blocked yesterday?
06:54<Wolf01>I didn't use the wiki for some years
06:54<Wolf01>but yes, the block date say yesterday
06:55<Rubidium>I didn't block anyone yesterday
06:55<Wolf01>no, this morning
06:55<Wolf01>9.35
06:55<Rubidium>I blocked someone adding and removing points to pages
06:56<Wolf01>maybe the same IP class
06:57<Wolf01> Start of block: 09:35, 13 September 2014
06:57<Wolf01> Expiry of block: infinite
06:57<Wolf01> Intended blockee: Debolars
06:57<Rubidium>nope, only the actual IP address was blocked as far as I can determine
06:57<@peter1138>might be an isp proxy
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07:07<Rubidium>Wolf01: what's your IP (v6)?
07:07<Wolf01>I don't have a v6 IP
07:07<Rubidium>that makes no sense
07:08<Rubidium>since the spammer used only ipv6
07:08<Wolf01>nice
07:09<Rubidium>does it work now?
07:09<Wolf01>still blocked
07:09<Wolf01>do I need to log out?
07:09<Rubidium>and now?
07:09<Wolf01>yes, not it works
07:09<Wolf01>*now
07:10<Rubidium>and then I really hope that the spammer doesn't return because I removed the block
07:10<frosch123>change the password to some glibberish? :p
07:11<frosch123>at least requires to reset the password for them :p
07:11<Wolf01>I doubt he was using my account
07:13<@peter1138>well what is your account? debolars?
07:15<Wolf01>wolf01
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07:17<andythenorth_>Pikka semi!
07:17<frosch123>hi dog
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07:22<@peter1138>bah, airports should be shared :p
07:24<Wolf01>some of them could be built by local authorities
07:24<Wolf01>and behave like oil platforms
07:25<Wolf01>but with non-functional hangar
07:25<@peter1138>Wolf01, good idea, make a patch ;)
07:25<@peter1138>hmm
07:25<Wolf01>so you still need to build your airport to make aircrafts
07:25<frosch123>just make aircraft land on road, and load at drive-though stops
07:25<@peter1138>yes
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07:41<Pikka>oui andythenorth, semis
07:41*Pikka will make all trucks as non-articulated semis
07:41<Pikka>universal refit, hooray!
07:42<Pikka>Wolf01, I thought about that in my newgrf(air)ports proposal
07:42<Pikka>shared airports that build as industries
07:42<Pikka>pity it will never happen :D
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07:45<Pikka><Pikka> oui andythenorth, semis
07:46<Pikka>* Pikka will make all trucks as non-articulated semis
07:46<Pikka><Pikka> universal refit, hooray!
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08:03<Wolf01>you scared him
08:10<Pikka>unlikely
08:10<Pikka>more probably a wooden train emergency
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08:13<@Alberth>wooden train emergency resolved
08:14<andythenorth>4G signal lies
08:15<Wolf01>use telegraph next time
08:15<andythenorth>now back in land of proper internet, with keyboards and all
08:15<andythenorth>Pikka: one-piece RVs?
08:15<Pikka>yes, except trams
08:15<andythenorth>what about hover-trailers?
08:15<andythenorth>truckellepins
08:15<Pikka>I don't like having RVs which can't use the "normal" stops, it's a badfeature. :)
08:16<Pikka>and can't overtake, etc
08:16<andythenorth>I can see your thinking
08:16<andythenorth>but I can’t subscribe to this newsletter :)
08:16<@peter1138>what was the magic method to make timetables work nicely?
08:16<@peter1138>like, autoseparate shit
08:17<andythenorth>there isn’t one, they dont’ work
08:17<Pikka>I also don't like having generational rvs where you get, eg, the tanker and the box and the bin introduced at different times
08:17<andythenorth>autoseperate is lies
08:17<Wolf01>never figured that out, peter1138
08:17<andythenorth>it doesn’t work
08:17<Pikka>so having universally-refittable one-piece semi-trailers is the best of all possible worlds. ;) I'll have some articulated trams though
08:17<andythenorth>Pikka: so just one truck per generation?
08:17<Pikka>yep
08:18<andythenorth>ho ho
08:19<andythenorth>also avoids balancing
08:19<Pikka>set plan is currently 4 trams, 4 buses, 4 coaches and 5 trucks
08:19<Pikka>where "coaches" are higher speed but lower capacity than "buses"
08:19<andythenorth>I am deleting the one ‘coach’ from road hog
08:20<andythenorth>build a train instead, innit
08:20<andythenorth>or a zellepin
08:20<Pikka>maybe
08:20<andythenorth>what truck graphics are you having? Change-able trailers?
08:20<Pikka>yep
08:21<andythenorth>no b-doubles for you
08:21<Pikka>nope
08:22<Pikka>build a train instead, innit? ;)
08:22<Pikka>or just build two trucks
08:22<andythenorth>freight zellepin
08:22<Pikka>hmm
08:23<andythenorth>Pikka: it’s an appealing concept, but I bet you talk yourself out of it o_O
08:24<Pikka>what, having no b-doubles?
08:24<andythenorth>one truck per generation
08:24<andythenorth>refitting all
08:24<andythenorth>I nearly did it, but didn't
08:24<andythenorth>can’t remember why
08:24<andythenorth>not realisms
08:25<andythenorth>oh yeah, I wanted big and small trucks
08:25<andythenorth>and HEQS-ish things
08:25<Pikka>yes
08:25<Pikka>I don't want big trucks
08:25<andythenorth>hmm, Road Hog seems to have everything in the buy menu twice
08:25<andythenorth>bit excessive
08:26<Pikka>in pineapple terms, trucks are there to fill the gaps where you can't squeeze a train
08:26<Pikka>it's not a set for truck fans ;)
08:29<andythenorth>that’s what helicopters are for
08:29<andythenorth>land on roofs innit
08:33*andythenorth should test grfs before tagging and releasing
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08:37<andythenorth>Pikka: do actually use drive-in stops?
08:37*andythenorth wondered about supporting those
08:37<Pikka>I do
08:38<Pikka>also, I know that you can't give an articulated vehicle an order to a drive-in stop
08:38<Pikka>but what happens if you auto-replace to an articulated? does the autoreplace fail, or does the vehicle get lost?
08:38<Pikka>either way, it's sub-optimal. :)
08:40*andythenorth watches some sketchy overtaking
08:40<frosch123>auto-replace fails
08:40<andythenorth>silently
08:40<frosch123>it checks the orders
08:40<andythenorth>the 3-axle bus just overtook the steam wagon
08:41*andythenorth considers joining pikka’s no-articulation club
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08:42<Pikka>it also provides an extra point of difference for trams, if trams can be longer/more capacious
08:42<Pikka>articulated hovertrams
08:42<andythenorth>do them like those funny matchbox highway trucks http://www.planetdiecast.com/hwdphotos/originals/246/650/IMGP1175.JPG
08:42<andythenorth>only not bend
08:42<andythenorth>they’re about 1 tile long :P
08:43<andythenorth>had a few of these, something very neat about their compressed dimensions
08:43<Pikka>hmm
08:43<andythenorth>http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-5ETzbYCx9IA%2FUfoQWNzjqRI%2FAAAAAAAAXDw%2FMfgnmoeyfNk%2Fs1600%2FIMG_6617.JPG&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fyihj0750.blogspot.com%2F2013%2F08%2F1981-matchbox-lesney-no30-leyland.html&h=1200&w=1600&tbnid=NVcv7kX_7l2wGM%3A&zoom=1&docid=9jgBlaZj2T6J8M&ei=azsUVKK7BYyg7Aa7ioHwCg&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CFAQMyglMCU&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=861&page=3&start=31&ndsp=1
08:43<Pikka>perhaps I should make a proof-of-concept model, see how the dimensions work :)
08:44<Pikka>but I should be doing hoverzellepins, right? that was the plan this weekend...
08:44<Pikka>that's a cool truck
08:45<Pikka>ho ho
08:45<Pikka>"realism that can't be matched"
08:45<andythenorth>hovers http://www.vectis.co.uk/AuctionImages/109/319_l.jpg
08:46<Pikka>btw, first tram
08:46<Pikka>= articulated, steam-loco-hauled, refittable to everything. good idea?
08:48<andythenorth>pax and fright?
08:48<Pikka>yes
08:48<andythenorth>I wouldn't
08:48<andythenorth>which might be a good reason to do it
08:48<Pikka>later trams will be "normal", passenger trams only
08:48<andythenorth>for a start
08:48<andythenorth>routing
08:49<Pikka>routing?
08:49<andythenorth>freight stop != pax stop
08:49<andythenorth>is problems
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08:49<andythenorth>not showstopping, but clunky
08:49<Pikka>hmm
08:49<andythenorth>no autorefittings
08:49<andythenorth>otherwise broken orders
08:50<Pikka>maybe have a passenger version and a notpassenger version, then
08:50<andythenorth>that’s what I found
08:50<andythenorth>I had a pax or mail tram
08:50<andythenorth>until I tested it
08:50<andythenorth>then I just had a pax tram
08:50<andythenorth>also, I knew I had a b-train version http://www.garyscars.co.uk/mb/tp/1980/17-03.jpg
08:54<Pikka>hmm.. but it isn't :D
08:55<Pikka>a b-double / b-train would have a fifth wheel on the back of the first trailer and only two points of articulation, this has a dolly and three points of articulation. this is a road train. :P
08:58<andythenorth>oh yes
08:58<andythenorth>isn’t that a rocky mountain double?
08:59<andythenorth>https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/otps/truck/wusr/fig02_13.gif
08:59<Pikka>I suppose it is
08:59<Pikka>but we don't call it that here, obv. :)
09:00<Pikka>those are some fancy graphics
09:00<Pikka>http://htetransport.com.au/fleet-and-equipment/pocket-road-train/
09:02<Pikka>http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/krystal_g/b_double_roadtrain_info_australia.jpg
09:03<andythenorth>none of those will be apple-pined
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09:08<Pikka>I don't think I had any of those trucks
09:09<andythenorth>is a HEQS http://essexmodelsandminiatures.co.uk/blog/category/construction-plant/kw-dart/
09:10<Pikka>absolutely
09:10*andythenorth lost in google
09:11<@Alberth>ask it the way back?
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09:19<andythenorth>it didn’t know
09:22*andythenorth is going to see a steam train
09:22<andythenorth>bbl
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09:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26815 /trunk/src (5 files in 3 dirs) (2014-09-13 13:30:31 UTC)
09:30<@DorpsGek>-Change: Allow to set the granularity of the tooltip hover time in milliseconds instead of seconds. New default value is 250ms
09:45<Wolf01>thank you planetmaker
09:45<@planetmaker>welcome :)
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 13 09:58:41 2014
---Logopened Sat Sep 13 10:31:33 2014
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---Logopened Sat Sep 13 10:51:14 2014
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11:11<andythenorth_>Chio
11:12<andythenorth_>Or choo even
11:13<Pikka>such steem train
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11:31<andythenorth_>Such train steam
11:31<andythenorth_>Also boots
11:32<andythenorth_>Everywhere
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11:47<George>https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/xussrset/423/console
11:47<George>Jenkins can't connet to hg!
11:47<George>planetmaker: what to do?
11:48<^Spike^>planetmaker i think that is one of the projects that needs your fix :)
11:49<George>^Spike^: "one of" what goes wrong?
11:50<^Spike^>some internal changes on our end
11:50<^Spike^>but planetmaker knows cf better then i do in this case
11:50<^Spike^>so i could change it by hand... but well i don't know if i'd do the right rhing
11:50<^Spike^>thing*
11:55<Wolf01>mmmh I think there's something I don't understand: trying to make an alpine game, farms without crops and built on the top of mountains, forests always snowy built at the sea level -.-
11:56<Wolf01>I'm using FIRS and opengfx landscape
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11:59<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
11:59<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 2 hours, 37 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <andythenorth> bbl
12:00<Pikka>he's off playing steam trains
12:01<DanMacK>nice
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12:07<@planetmaker>George, there, builds again
12:09<George>planetmaker: The log looks strange
12:10<George>it builds twice
12:10<George>https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/xussrset/425/console
12:10<George>it builds three times ...
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12:11<@planetmaker>it builds the grf, the zip and the src bundle
12:11<DanMacK>figures.. you come on just as Im leavig lol
12:11<@planetmaker>allegedly that's not strictly needed, but not a problem with the CF itself. Rather the makefile :)
12:12<DanMacK>bbl
12:13<andythenorth_>http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskelot_(tall_ship)
12:13<Wolf01>planetmaker, could you suggest a nice train set for early years (1880-1925) to use in combination with FIRS?
12:14<@planetmaker>hm, nuts starts in 1920. iron horse maybe?
12:15<andythenorth_>Iron Horse?
12:15<andythenorth_>Starts 1870
12:15<George>planetmaker: you need to fix the make file?
12:17<@planetmaker>Wolf01, I'm not sure about start date of pineapple trains, but that's a nice set, too
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12:17<Pikka>1900 for pineapple trains
12:18<andythenorth_>Such boots
12:18*andythenorth_ is at the docks
12:18<andythenorth_>Drinking latte
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12:22<@planetmaker>George, Makefile surely can be improved, yes
12:23<Wolf01>oh, it looks I finally have a playable game
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13:20<AmixG5>hello
13:21<@Alberth>o/
13:21<AmixG5>I am looking for the latest MorphOS version of OpenTTD
13:22<AmixG5>seems it stopped at 0.3.6 ;p
13:23<Rubidium>there's 0.6.3
13:23<AmixG5>0.6.3 yes
13:23<AmixG5>sorry
13:23<Rubidium>there nothing newer
13:23<AmixG5>I wish there was :)
13:25<Rubidium>does MorphOS have a recent compiler, or is it still using one that is over a decade old?
13:26<Rubidium>because I think that's the main reason it's not compiled anymore
13:26<+glx>IIRC morphos compiler didn't like our switch to "advanced" c++
13:26<@peter1138>wasn't it still on 2.95 at that point? heh
13:27<AmixG5>ohh ok
13:27<AmixG5>I am just a player
13:27<AmixG5>nice game
13:27<tokai|mdlx>glx: More like the guy who ported it. :)
13:27<tokai|mdlx>There's recentish gcc4 available on MorphOS.
13:28<+glx>hehe
13:29<AmixG5>tokai|mdlx: would you try to make 1.4.3 for MorphOS? Is it hard task to do?
13:30-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
13:30<@Alberth>o/
13:31<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: There's only little motivation to terrorize myself with C++. I get enough headaches with my PHP based work. (which sums up the worst two languages ever.. at least the one I had to use at some point) :) Anyway... Fab1 tried to make a port and didn't succeed, and he knows his way around with C++ unlike me. :)
13:32-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
13:32<AmixG5>ohh
13:33<andythenorth>fancy
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13:33<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: but AFAIR he never really looked deeper into it.. it basically just failed the first time :) Certainly he's more busy with all his other ports already. :)
13:33<AmixG5>so, openttd was only C before?
13:34<tokai|mdlx>It used to be nice C code, yes. :)
13:34<tokai|mdlx>before 0.5 or so, AFAIR.
13:34<tokai|mdlx>0.6.3 was C++ already, if I remember correctly.
13:35<Rubidium>the bits of code that differ between operating systems are generally NOT in C++ code, just C code compiled with the C++ compiler
13:35<tokai|mdlx>Rubidium: those are usually not the problematic bits :)
13:36<Rubidium>if the porter needs to mess with order bits of code, then it's the compiler that is broken
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13:36<Rubidium>and in that case, the porter should fix the compiler instead of trying to work around compiler bugs
13:36<tokai|mdlx>Could be a possibility, sure.
13:36<AmixG5>Rubidium: well, something hit the road for morphos ports obviously
13:38<Rubidium>AmixG5: sure, we can't support all compilers and at some point we hit so many issues with the old compiler that we declared it unsupported
13:39<Rubidium>since MorphOS was lagging behind many compiler versions, that basically meant MorphOS had a problem
13:40<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: something as in motivation (see above) :) Here we have a guy who loves C, but gets nightmares with C++ mess. Now try to motivate such person to regularly port a huge C++ application :)
13:40<@peter1138>"C++ mess" implies our code is crap
13:40<@peter1138>thanks
13:40<Rubidium>or rather... it was kinda seen as a dead platform because of not having a recent compiler
13:40<tokai|mdlx>peter1138: C++ is mess. Any C++ code. The language is crap, IMHO. :)
13:41<AmixG5>peter1138: some symbian people and others seems to have some negative views of c++ ;P
13:43<tokai|mdlx>Rubidium: as I said there's gcc4 available. Not the latest, but a pretty recentish one (I don't know exact version without downloading the huge archive first :)
13:43<@peter1138>i doubt it's worth supporting it all for just one user (sorry AmixG5)
13:44<tokai|mdlx>I don't think there's a real technical reason for current OpenTTD not being available for MorphOS. It's mainly a motivation and time issue or an issue of no other person with some knowledge stepping in :)
13:44<AmixG5>peter1138: if supporting morphos, that means having almost 2000 users instantly :) because the ones that uses it, they love to play games and use it with all their heart :)
13:45<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: where do you get this fancy number?
13:45<andythenorth>2000 users!
13:45<andythenorth>think of the money
13:46<AmixG5>:=)
13:46<AmixG5>tokai|mdlx: i see the graf
13:46<AmixG5>:)
13:46<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: graf? The tennis player?
13:46<andythenorth>Rubidium: any idea what % of users donate? o_O
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26817 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-09-13 17:46:45 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: Do you mean this pointless MorphOS user graph?
13:46<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 2 changes by telanus
13:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 4 changes by juanjo
13:46<@DorpsGek>german - 3 changes by planetmaker
13:47<@DorpsGek>russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:47<Rubidium>andythenorth: how many users are there?
13:47<andythenorth>if you know the % who donate, you can work out the total from the donations? o_O
13:47<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: It's not users it's generated licences (and not even exact). HUGE difference.
13:48<AmixG5>:)
13:48<AmixG5>anyway
13:48<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: if you're lucky you maybe have some 500 active users. But that's probably optimistic? :)
13:48<AmixG5>I love to see 1.4.3 for morphos :)
13:49<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: Why not install the SDK and give it a try? If you hit a brick on the road you always can ask here for help, I guess. :)
13:49<AmixG5>haha
13:49<AmixG5>i am no coder
13:49<tokai|mdlx>In theory you should get pretty far with Configure + Make, I guess?
13:51<Rubidium>andythenorth: seems to be about 100 donation / year
13:51<tokai|mdlx>Not too bad.
13:52-!-AmixG5 [Michal@47.65.45.31.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Amiga usage is not just usage. It's respect for everyone Supporting Amiga. Thanks to all developers!]
13:52<Rubidium>and about 1 million downloads at openttd.org / year
13:52<tokai|mdlx>Rubidium: does it cover costs? (server, etc)?
13:53<Rubidium>tokai|mdlx: yes
13:53-!-AmixG5 [Michal@47.65.45.31.customer.cdi.no] has joined #openttd
13:53<tokai|mdlx>Rubidium: that's nice.
13:54<AmixG5>tokai|mdlx: lets say that most of these sales are 1-2 licenses per person.. its less.. but its still giving morphos more users than ever before :)
13:54<AmixG5>it just takes some time
13:55<andythenorth>so 0.01% donate
13:55<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: it's not sales. It's just a license count.
13:55<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: and not even an exact one. Ignore this number. It has zero meaning really.
13:55<AmixG5>I would say that if openttd got released and you post that people need to donate for more support, you will earn a bit
13:56<Rubidium>money isn't the problem, developers doing the support are the problem
13:57<AmixG5>http://mm.pl/~recedent/wykres2.png
13:57<AmixG5>this is the stats I reffer to
13:57<+glx>as always, a dev for the plaform is hard to find
13:58<AmixG5>tokai|mdlx is here :)
13:58<+glx>OSX has a similar issue IIRC, but at least it can be compiled automatically
13:58<AmixG5>how to motivate him is another task
13:59<Rubidium>AmixG5: maybe EUR 80 per hour helps motivating him?
13:59<AmixG5>i tried :)
13:59<AmixG5>but no respons
13:59<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: first you would need to motivate him to even boot MorphOS regularly. :)
14:00<AmixG5>tokai|mdlx: forget the internal morphos team conflicts ;P please come back.
14:00<AmixG5>:)
14:02<AmixG5>krmt.. I see v0.7.2 is out for AmigaOS 4.x
14:03<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: shows you how easy it should be to update the MorphOS build. Just do it. (AmigaOS 4.x port is only possible because all the work we did for the MorphOS part :) )
14:04<AmixG5>tokai|mdlx: sooo,.. release 1.4.3... I will reward you!
14:04<AmixG5>:)
14:09*andythenorth predicts a future with futurism rosters in it
14:13<Pikka>terrible
14:15<AmixG5>if openttd can be part of stopping people from throwing their old ppc macs in the garbage and instead use them with morphos which will give them support for a long time. now thats nice goals and shows positive signals for our enviroment. just thinking here.
14:15<@Alberth>most people do more than playing openttd on their computer
14:17<Rubidium>why pay EUR 100 when you can just use OS X 10.4 where it already works?
14:19<AmixG5>because that is a ridiculous thing to say
14:19<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: Try to be realistic.
14:20<AmixG5>tokai|mdlx: sure,.. i am playing it on osx, android etc
14:20<tokai|mdlx>Amiga-style computing isn't something you sell easily these days (for many valid reasons) :)
14:20<AmixG5>but I would be happier if it was for morphos
14:21<tokai|mdlx>It's nice for us "old" guys who grew up with the stuff and love it, but for your Joe Average these days it certainly isn't a suitable solution.
14:21<+glx>like amstrad
14:22<tokai|mdlx>Pretty much all MorphOS users have other systems too to fulfill al their computing needs. MorphOS or AmigaOS alone isn't useful.
14:22<+glx>and its silly 3" disk format :)
14:23<@peter1138>don't forget the 3" "disk" tape
14:25<tokai|mdlx>[SRC] Linking openttd
14:25<tokai|mdlx>tokai@garnet ~/Desktop/trunk $
14:25<tokai|mdlx>nice.
14:26<tokai|mdlx>Had only two harmless issues during the build, else out of the box. :)
14:26<AmixG5>harmless issues?
14:26<tokai|mdlx>On an old Mac OS X, that is.
14:27<tokai|mdlx>Make run launched it even
14:27<tokai|mdlx>Now it launched, after downloading some graphics. :)
14:28*tokai|mdlx now plays a round r26817. :)
14:30<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: Yes, I didn't had two compression libs on my system, so I had to use the -without-<foo> switches to disable them.
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14:30<AmixG5>tokai|mdlx: i can be a beta tester
14:30<AmixG5>:)
14:30<tokai|mdlx>I don't know how to make a releasable OSX thing. :)
14:31<tokai|mdlx>perhaps "make archive" will do the trick?
14:31<AmixG5>grrr,,.. MorphOS
14:31<AmixG5>:)
14:31<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: you didn't specify that earlier when you offered the big reward ;)
14:31*tokai|mdlx runs
14:31<AmixG5>haha
14:33<tokai|mdlx>created: /Users/tokai/Desktop/trunk/bundles/openttd-custom-r26817-OSX.dmg
14:33<tokai|mdlx>OpenTTD's build system is definitely nice. :)
14:35<AmixG5>not funny ;P
14:37<@peter1138>19:30 < tokai|mdlx> AmixG5: Yes, I didn't had two compression libs on my system, so I had to use the -without-<foo> switches to disable them.
14:37<@peter1138>multiplayer might be fun :p
14:37<tokai|mdlx>I wonder why the OSX port has trouble finding a maintainer. This looks all quite ready and usable already and works out of the box. With a bit knowledge about OSX programming (I don't have any ;) ) it should be no hurdle, IMHO.
14:38<AmixG5>tokai|mdlx: release 1.4.3 for osx, morphos and haiku :)
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14:39<tokai|mdlx>peter1138: All have a 'red' dot. Not sure how it works these days (I guess some strict version match is still required?)
14:40<@peter1138>Yeah
14:40<AmixG5>the osx version now doesnt want to go into fullscreen mode totally... the topbar of osx still shows... means there are conflicts with openttd a lot :)
14:42<tokai|mdlx>AmixG5: No problems here. Perhaps Apple broke something in newer Mac OS X versions (they like to do that) :)
14:43<AmixG5>gta san andreas doesnt start anymore ;P i know.. sort of
14:47<AmixG5>hmm, I see train fever.. a new game on steam... trying to become ttd in 3D... but they forgot the trams! silly :)
14:51<andythenorth>one problem with the OS X port is that the bugs are pretty insignificant
14:52<andythenorth>the only current issues I know of
14:52<andythenorth>- game runs dog slow in windowed mode
14:52<andythenorth>- console doesn’t open/close cleanly on keyboard commands
14:52<andythenorth>- console has stopped responding to up cursor in some recent rev
14:53<andythenorth>otherwise it just works
14:53<AmixG5>andythenorth: fullscreen isnt fullscreen also
14:53<andythenorth>it is in Mavericks
14:53<AmixG5>not on retina macbook pro
14:53<andythenorth>it is in Mavericks
14:53<AmixG5>it goes into fullscreen
14:53<AmixG5>but the topbar stays there
14:54<andythenorth>ok, so you have something different to me
14:54<AmixG5>so there are conflicts with topbuttons of openttd and osx itself
14:54<andythenorth>which mavericks, which macbook?
14:54<AmixG5>macbook pro retina 13"
14:54<andythenorth>2014 model?
14:54<AmixG5>2013
14:54<andythenorth>running 10.9.4?
14:54<AmixG5>latest yes
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14:55<andythenorth>self-compiled?
14:55<andythenorth>or nightly build?
14:55<AmixG5>downloaded 1.4.3 from openttd site
14:56<andythenorth>1.4.2 RC 2 goes full-screen seamlessly for me
14:56<andythenorth>as does a self-compiled recent build of trunk
14:56<AmixG5>i can take a grab
14:56<AmixG5>if needed?
14:56<andythenorth>report it on flyspray
14:56<andythenorth>doubt anyone will fix it
14:56<AmixG5>hehe
14:57<andythenorth>there will be no error log, and I can’t reproduce it
14:57<andythenorth>so it will sit there as ‘one more reason to drop OS X’ ;)
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14:57<andythenorth>what resolution is your screen at?
14:57<frosch123>are morphos users more likely to be osx users?
14:57<frosch123>as in: one weird system is not enough? :p
15:04<AmixG5>frosch123: hehe
15:04<AmixG5>not really
15:04<AmixG5>we still love ppc
15:04<AmixG5>:)
15:04<AmixG5>but also uses other systems also as tokai|mdlx said
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15:19<b_jonas>ok, now I have to decide what kind of services I build
15:19<b_jonas>I'm thinking oil rig trains
15:19<b_jonas>but maybe I want some city airports and transfer passengers first, afterall I have the Concorde
15:20<b_jonas>and the Boeing too
15:21<andythenorth>livestock by air
15:21<b_jonas>no, definitely not that
15:21<b_jonas>I don't even have an airplane refittable to that
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15:23*Rubidium is amazed that people are playing 1.4.3 already
15:23<Rubidium>where's the Doctor when you need him?
15:24<Rubidium>AmixG5: if you love ppc, then install Debian. It has OpenTTD
15:25<Rubidium>last time I tried it, it even ran (which is like 4 months ago)
15:25<andythenorth>I am surprised anyway has the patience for PPC
15:25<b_jonas>the other possibilities I have are passengers by train (but I'd rather wait for better trains for that), or factory stuff by train
15:26<Rubidium>andythenorth: as you can see from the commit logs, I even had the patience to fix a m68k compile issue
15:26<AmixG5>morphos is not linux
15:26<Rubidium>although... not really a compile issue, more regression triggering something
15:26<AmixG5>i use morphos because its amigaos sort of
15:26<AmixG5>much better though
15:28*andythenorth ponders the wheres and whyfores
15:28<andythenorth>but also consists, and flat docks
15:29<@Alberth>andythenorth: did you report devzone #7109?
15:29<b_jonas>ugh, this oil thing might be tricky
15:29<b_jonas>I'm not sure I want to do it yet
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15:30<andythenorth>Alberth: as an ottd issue?
15:30<andythenorth>oh balls
15:30<andythenorth>he’s gone
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16:19*andythenorth bins ‘type’ info from Squid
16:20<andythenorth>or not
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17:39<frosch123>night
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17:44<b_jonas>very good rating you say? let's see what you'll say after I level this hill of all its trees
17:44<b_jonas>poor now
17:46<b_jonas>hmm, it still allowed me to build the airport with poor rating. maybe it's too far from the city center for them to care?
17:46<Sylf>They don't let you build stations if you have very poor or atrocious rating
17:49<b_jonas>oh, so just poor is enough
17:49<b_jonas>also, "atrocious"? isn't it "apalling" or something?
17:50<Sylf>atrocious might be the american english version since 1.3 or 1.4
17:50<Sylf>it used to be appalling for american english too
17:50<b_jonas>I see
17:51<b_jonas>right, that's what http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Local_authority_rating says too
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17:54<b_jonas>argh
17:54<b_jonas>stupid town
17:54<b_jonas>you're building where I am trying to build
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17:59<b_jonas>finally
18:00<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r26818 trunk/src/video/cocoa/cocoa_v.mm (2014-09-13 22:00:10 UTC)
18:00<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#AndyShouldHaveFoundFlySprayByNow] (r26758): [OSX] Line history and scrolling in the console window went on a walk.
18:01<b_jonas>ok, so now to decide on the airplane. Concorde or Boeing?
18:04<Supercheese>Airbus
18:04<b_jonas>Boeing it will be
18:06<andythenorth>nice commit michi_cc
18:06<b_jonas>I don't have Airbus yet
18:07<b_jonas>hmm, I could use the Guru Galaxy instead
18:07<b_jonas>one each?
18:12<b_jonas>ouch, I misclicked
18:13<b_jonas>destroyed some town roads I didn't mean to
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18:18<andythenorth>smoke fixed
18:18<andythenorth>bedtime
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18:33<b_jonas>hmm, why does the station label display a train icon if I've only built railway station squares that don't have rails on them?
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18:39<b_jonas>nosie concerns? what noise concerns? argh
18:40<b_jonas>too close to the city center for the new rules I guess
18:41<Supercheese>if you're using OGFX+ airports, you can disable those noise restrictions
18:46<b_jonas>I don't want to disable them
18:46<b_jonas>they're for the better
18:47<b_jonas>I wouldn't like too much noise for the town either
18:47<b_jonas>but apparently they care only about the center of the town, where the rich people live
18:47<b_jonas>not about their suburbs
18:49<NGC3982>Evening.
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19:05<Wolf01>'night
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19:16<b_jonas>ok, now for the oil
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19:46<b_jonas>wow, I never knew refitting a vehicle can have a negative cost
19:46<b_jonas>apparently refitting a bulk wagon from grain back to coal does
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19:55<Eddi|zuHause>i think that was a spec extension a few years back, when it was discussed that refitting stuff like HEQS trams from <n> wagons to <m> wagons should be negative if m is smaller than n
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>probably together with the refit callback
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>but what you describe is probably a bug in the newgrf
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20:02<Eddi|zuHause>the doctor who opening monologue somewhat reminds me of that xkcd comic about saying "i know that you're listening" into an empty room just to freak out a person that might be listening
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23:07<GriffinOneTwo>!players
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 14 00:00:09 2014