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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-14

---Logopened Sun Sep 14 00:00:09 2014
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02:36*andythenorth scratches head
02:39<andythenorth>I might have overlooked the ‘proper’ way to vary power by railtype
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02:55<andythenorth>si Pikka
02:56<andythenorth>pikka you did EletroMcDiesel in ukrs 2
02:56<andythenorth>why do non-elrl depots report elrl to the vehicle?
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02:56<andythenorth>or have I done a stupid?
02:56<Pikka>I had a class 73, yes
02:56<andythenorth>lo DanMacK
02:56<andythenorth>you wait ages, then two turn up at once
02:56<Pikka>hello DanMacK
02:57*DanMacK waves
02:57<Pikka>why do non-elrl depots report elrl to the vehicle? <- I'm guessing that they don't...
02:57<DanMacK>headed to bed shortly tis 3am here :P
02:57<andythenorth>Pikka: has andythenorth done a stupid?
02:57<Pikka>I don't know, what's the actual problem?
02:58<andythenorth>DanMacK: truck looks good
02:58<andythenorth>both of them
02:58<andythenorth>will figure out what’s best
02:58<Pikka>and is it exacerbated by the three-part-vehicle system? ;)
02:58<andythenorth>pikka thinks we should only do single-unit trucks
02:58<Pikka>no I don't
02:58<Pikka>I think I should only do single-unit trucks
02:58<andythenorth>no he doesn't
02:58<andythenorth>what he said
02:59<andythenorth>I considered it for the mechanical horse - fake articulated
02:59<andythenorth>DanMacK: I’ll put those in
02:59<andythenorth>trying to finish the horse
02:59<andythenorth>then we can 1.0.0 horses
02:59<Pikka>mmm mechanical horse
02:59<andythenorth>too many horses
02:59<DanMacK>mech horse or horse horse?
02:59<andythenorth>iron horse, mech horse
02:59<andythenorth>1.0.0 for Iron Horse :)
02:59<andythenorth>can I say ‘metro trains’ to you? :)
03:00<Pikka>andythenorth, fwiw
03:01<Pikka>the class 73 in UKRS2 is coded as a normal rail vehicle, but is made unavailable if a suitable electrified track is not defined
03:01<Pikka>and uses a callback to increase power on the electrified track
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03:01<andythenorth>mine does the callback
03:01<Pikka>seemed like the simplest/only way to do it, the vehicle type has to be the least restrictive railtype
03:02<andythenorth>power is 1250, the cb sets it to 5000 if railtype is ELRL
03:02<andythenorth>railtype is RAIL, vehicle type is DIESEL
03:02<andythenorth>but the depot always reports 5000
03:02<andythenorth>depot / buy menu /s
03:03<Pikka>buy menu probably doesn't know the railtype of the depot, then
03:03<Pikka>can't be helped
03:03<andythenorth>well that’s fine
03:03<andythenorth>it just makes me doubt my own code :P
03:05<andythenorth>“He doth nothing but talk of his horse.”
03:06<andythenorth>“RICHARD III. A horse! a horse! my kingdom for a horse! “
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03:09<Pikka>you should just release everything as an RC from now on
03:09<Pikka>Iron Horse 1.0.0rc73
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03:38<andythenorth>don’t think it’s the 3 part business
03:40<Pikka>for the electro-diesel power?
03:40<Pikka>nah, UKRS is the same way. it shows the full power in the buy menu, even if you're building in a regular rail depot
03:41<Pikka>the built loco in the depot shows the correct power though
03:41*Pikka just checked
03:43<andythenorth>I’ll stop arbitrarily changing code
03:45<Pikka>boin planetmaker
03:51<andythenorth>I wonder if the power cb runs in buy menu and just takes the highest value
03:52<andythenorth>I’ve tried shuffling the order of results and stuff
03:53<andythenorth>variable power by railtype is a BAD FEATURE
03:53<andythenorth>but there have to be a few bad features per set
03:53<andythenorth>or it’s boring
03:54<Pikka>it's somewhat realistic
03:54<andythenorth>I just put it in to fuck with people tbh
03:54<Pikka>may as well slow down trains without brakevans too
03:54<andythenorth>it’s an idea
03:56<andythenorth>maybe a limit of 3 BAD FEATURES per set? o_O
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03:57<andythenorth>did we agree cabeese are BAD FEATURE?
03:57<andythenorth>or are they ok?
03:57<Pikka>cabeese which do stuff are a bad feature
03:57<Pikka>cabeese which just are are fine
03:57<andythenorth>vanilla cabeese
03:58<andythenorth>so IH has: Electro-Diesels, combine pax-mail car, and reversing sprites on tank engines
03:58<andythenorth>enough BAD FEATURES
03:58<andythenorth>Squid has: ships go faster unloaded, refittable capacities on some ships, hoverzellepins
03:59<Pikka>hoverzeppelins are a good feature though
03:59<andythenorth>Ying, Yang
03:59<andythenorth>no light without darkness
03:59<andythenorth>road hog has: articulated vehicles, trams
03:59<andythenorth>as BAD FEATURES
03:59<andythenorth>that means I can add another :O
04:05<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE: no buy menu text
04:20*andythenorth considers calling this roster ‘Richard the Third'
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04:26<Wolf01>hi hi
04:26<@planetmaker>hi hi :)
04:28<andythenorth>Pikka bob, can haz question?
04:28<Wolf01>now I remember why I decided to not play "mountanious", it's because I need to finish the stations on slopes patch
04:28<@planetmaker>he :)
04:28<andythenorth>at least for RVs
04:29<andythenorth>train stations on slopes is not a needed thing
04:29<Wolf01>buffer stops on slopes might be cool
04:29<andythenorth>but a town on a hill is hard to put RVs into
04:29<andythenorth>I patched buffer stops on slopes once
04:29<andythenorth>there is an interesting side effect
04:29<Wolf01>yes, I have a lot of towns on hills
04:30<@planetmaker>indeed, more a problem for road than rail
04:30<@planetmaker>go, finish it :)
04:30<andythenorth>hmm, I wonder if that train routing issue affects non-track tiles?
04:30<Wolf01>the RV part is finished
04:30<Wolf01>or at least, it was
04:31<Wolf01>it just needed grf support
04:31<@planetmaker>hm, so sprites missing but otherwise done?
04:32<Wolf01>yes, but its really old
04:32<Wolf01>as far I remember the problem with buffer stops occurred only if you removed the grf from the game after you built them
04:33<andythenorth>this is the ‘trains jumping 1 height level’ issue?
04:33<@planetmaker>crashy problem?
04:34<Wolf01>that's because I wanted to limit the rail stations only to be built horizontally on slopes
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04:34<Wolf01>but the game thinks they are a sloped track
04:35<Wolf01>hence the limit to buffer stops/ non track tiles
04:35<@planetmaker>horizontally I can already build stations. What do you mean / add in that case?
04:35<Wolf01>on tiles with one corner raised or perpendicular to the slope
04:36<andythenorth>if you got really interested, you could fix docks too… :)
04:36<@planetmaker>that's different :P
04:37<andythenorth>that screenie needs docks on corner slopes :)
04:38<andythenorth>I am -1 to sloped train stations, I think it’s a step too far :)
04:38<Wolf01>yes, I agree
04:39<andythenorth>the RV stops basically look fine as is
04:39<@planetmaker>yes, somewhat
04:39<Wolf01>FooBar made a grf for sloped road stops
04:39<andythenorth>do they need grf support really?
04:39<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, the base sets need sprites for them
04:39<andythenorth>ah ok
04:40<@planetmaker>though they probably could be composed of existing sprites + new offsets as it looks
04:42<@planetmaker>hm, nice
04:43<@planetmaker>it would really add to RV what I had been wishing for time and again when I build a city transport system
04:43<andythenorth>we have drive-in stops on steep slopes for ages, but drive-ins are not so good
04:43<andythenorth>and can’t be used for trams
04:44<andythenorth>trams are a bit of a PITA currently, mostly because of slopes
04:44<@planetmaker>yes, also bus stops on an uphill road are perfectly valid
04:50<Pikka>I suppose we can't say 'can you tell what it is yet?' any more...
04:52<andythenorth>apparently not
04:52<andythenorth>nor ‘now then, now then'
04:52<Wolf01>is it a cat?
04:53<andythenorth>also \0/
04:53*Pikka returns anon
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04:55<Wolf01>hmmm, oil wells on the top of mountains
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05:34<Wolf01>nice choo-choo ai... it connected 2 20-tiles away cities with a loop through 2 mountains which are 100+ tiles away
05:35<@Alberth>tourists like good views :)
05:36<Wolf01>and now I only hope it knows what it's doing, those track-planning tracks doesn't seem suitable to run anything
05:36<Wolf01>removed one station and one track, still thinking around a junction
05:37<Wolf01>it would be cool if an ai plans the route and then convert it
05:38<Wolf01>meanwhile my highly profitable copper route with panoramic view works like a charm
05:47<@planetmaker>hm... vehicle list view is really funky:
05:53<@Alberth>nicely right-aligned :p
05:53<@Alberth>what do you expect from maniacs :p
05:54<@planetmaker>The funky thing there is the alignment jump below the cursor :)
05:54<@planetmaker>or below the tooltip rather. That's the crucial thing to mess it up
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06:16*andythenorth fixing spree
06:18<@Alberth>all bad features gone?
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06:28<andythenorth>Alberth: no, extended support for them
06:28<andythenorth>reversing-tank-engines BAD FEATURE now has smoke in the right place
06:28<andythenorth>random-wagon-colours BAD FEATURE now works for hopper wagons
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06:28<andythenorth>power-by-railtype BAD FEATURE refactored to be extensible in future
06:29<@Alberth>train drivers will be happy to stop smoking
06:29<@Alberth>and less boring wagons never hurts either, imho
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07:19<b_jonas>is it possible to somehow find out what area a town building covers, that is, which squares would be destroyed together if I used the bomb tool?
07:19<b_jonas>like, maybe if I hover the land area or bomb tool on them, it should highlight all its squares
07:21<andythenorth>sometimes I wonder about stack overflow
07:21<andythenorth>compated to reading docs
07:21<andythenorth>compared *
07:22<andythenorth>to find the max value in a dict, one of the preferred SO answers is: max(foo.iterkeys(), key=(lamda key: foo[key]))
07:22<andythenorth>whereas reading the docs, you’d conclude: max(foo.values())
07:22<andythenorth>is it just to distinguish some kind of leet skills between people who don’t understand lambda (andythenorth), and everyone else?
07:23<andythenorth>oh he wants the key as well, /me misread that
07:26<andythenorth>leet reading skills :P
07:27<@Alberth>it's still a linear search
07:30<andythenorth>would be how I’d do it
07:31<andythenorth>also unreliable for keys with same value
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07:33<@Alberth>luckily keys are unique
07:34<@Alberth>oh 'value' is intended differently :)
07:35<@Alberth>for a one-time action, sure. If you want it more often, a sorted set of values would be better
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07:39<andythenorth>Alberth: also you left yesterday before I could answer your question
07:40<andythenorth>I didn’t report this as an ottd bug
07:40<andythenorth>maybe I should
07:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth, can I haz 32bpp FISH and FIRS, pretty please? :D
07:40<andythenorth>planetmaker: can you draw them?
07:40<@planetmaker>no :(
07:40<andythenorth>I considered it
07:40<andythenorth>then I considered again
07:41<@planetmaker>draw new stuff in 32bpp 4x :P
07:41<@planetmaker>do it slowly, thus
07:41<andythenorth>considered 2x
07:41<andythenorth>Dan had some test sprites
07:41<andythenorth>might happen in a parallel universe
07:41<@planetmaker>just playing on coop stable server with fish+firs+pineapple trains
07:41<@planetmaker>parallel universe?
07:42<andythenorth>many-worlds scenario
07:42<andythenorth>all things happen - in some universe
07:42<andythenorth>not ours though
07:42<andythenorth>pikka will give you ships
07:42<Pikka>will I
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07:43<andythenorth>Pineapple Boots
07:43<Pikka>bineapple poats
07:43<@peter1138>let's so 2bpp 4x
07:43<@Alberth>andythenorth: I think you should report it, it deserves a newgrf guru to have a look at it, I think
07:45<andythenorth>2bpp would save wear and tear
07:45<b_jonas>pineapple boats (in toyland)
07:53<@planetmaker>loool. Cargodist at its best: two players compeeting for fish in the same sea area, serving the same fishing ground
07:53<@planetmaker>result: that one fishing ground serves as hub to route the fish from one company to the other company's fishing harbour :)
07:54<@planetmaker>I've already waiting 1000t at my harbour to be routed back via that fishing ground to the other company to be picked up to be brought to their fishing ground :)
07:55<b_jonas>what newgrf is this?
07:56<b_jonas>ah, probably FIRS
07:57<@planetmaker>FIRS, yes
07:58<b_jonas>is there a newgrf that makes steel mills accept coal, just like in locomotion?
07:58<Pikka>my old TaI does, but it's pretty outdated and does a lot of other stuff too. :)
07:58<b_jonas>I see
07:59<@peter1138>planetmaker, could be fixed to prevent using common stations being used like that?
07:59<@planetmaker>peter1138, could. But I wonder whether it should be fixed :)
08:00<@peter1138>i think so
08:00<@planetmaker>though with cargodist it's more difficult: without it it required a concious effort to share via neutral stations. Now it just happens
08:01<@peter1138>who gets the income?
08:01<@planetmaker>I don't know yet
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08:02<@Alberth>b_jonas: FIRS steel mill in basic temperate climate accepts coal
08:02<andythenorth>FIRS steel mill accepts coal
08:03<b_jonas>I see
08:03<@Alberth>thanks andy, let's see whether it can be fixed
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08:11<@planetmaker>andythenorth, but I really like how fishing grounds cluster. It's good gameplay [TM]
08:13<Rubidium>peter1138: probably the one with the largest amount of accepting stations nearby gets the biggest share
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08:33<b_jonas>openttd is a great game
08:40<b_jonas>hmm, I should upgrade this to monorail
08:46<andythenorth>planetmaker: I find building ships for fishing grounds to be a bit yah-shaving :P
08:46<andythenorth>but yes, they look nice :P
08:46<@planetmaker>hm, what does 'yaw-shaving' mean?
08:47<@planetmaker>ok, same question :P But yaks stink ;)
08:48<@planetmaker>aye, tu
08:48<@planetmaker>well, I'd not put it that way. It's actually an excellent game starter when playing FIRS
08:48<andythenorth>it’s nice in MP, when one of you sorts them out ;)
08:48<@planetmaker>and yes, I play this game at least 50% for the looks
08:48<andythenorth>and there’s no faff around supplies or production increase either :)
08:48<@planetmaker>oh, I play alone in my company
08:49<@planetmaker>but I only ship fish and food :P
08:49<andythenorth>I want a helper AI in my single-player game
08:49<andythenorth>Fishing AI
08:49<andythenorth>you give it an annual budget
08:49<andythenorth>it goes fishing
08:49<@planetmaker>I kinda fill that gap in this game :P
08:50<@planetmaker>but squid ships are nice to watch, too :)
08:50<@planetmaker>as are pineapple trains
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08:54<@planetmaker>also... it's Dutch townnames. So fishing *must* play a role here :)
08:57<b_jonas>wait what... oh damn
08:57<b_jonas>the only monorail I have yet is this Yarmancouk Express which doesn't accept wagons and can't carry valuables
08:57<b_jonas>back to electric then
08:58<Wolf01>I'm enjoing so much this mountainous game that I would like more and more height levels, these mountains are too small, not enough challenge :D
08:58<andythenorth>I used to think more height levels would be good
08:59<George> does not say that max variants is 128
08:59<andythenorth>b_jonas: monorail is dumb
09:00<George>but NMLC says nmlc ERROR: "xussr.nml", line 34804: The maximum sum of all random_switch probabilities is 128, encountered 194.
09:00<b_jonas>andythenorth: ok, but it will take decades until I get vac trains,
09:00<b_jonas>I want to service these towns in the time till that
09:03<George>wiki says Vehicles SELF 8
09:03<George>(Feature Type # of random bits)
09:03<George>but 194 (<256) does not work
09:06<@peter1138>why do i get the "you lost money" sound when i didn't?
09:07<@peter1138>it just means i earned less than last year
09:07<andythenorth>also - related, Road Hog vehicles have mental sound effects
09:08<andythenorth>I haven’t defined any yet, and the defaults are laughing crowds etc, which I assume are toyland
09:10<b_jonas>is it normal if my station labels show the train icon even if I only have train station tiles without rails on them?
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09:13*andythenorth wonders
09:13<andythenorth>is it done yet?
09:17<George>planetmaker: are you here?
09:17<George>Can you help with my question about random switch?
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09:43<@planetmaker> <-- I wouldn't want to sleep in houses near those streets :P
09:44<andythenorth>they should only be allowed on dirt roads
09:44<@planetmaker>it's surely dirty food ;)
09:44<@planetmaker>smelly fish
09:45<@planetmaker>George, there's probably not more random bits
09:45<George>no, it is not
09:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth, funnily enough the crawlers offer the best cargo / cost rating, especially given the short distance
09:46<George>I've split it into 2 random switches 128 varianths each and random selection frome these 2
09:46<George>and it works
09:46<@planetmaker>the trucks I have are only 12 or 17t. The crawlers are 36
09:47<@Alberth>George: seems to do special things with bit 7 (80)
09:48<@Alberth>as usual with newgrf, it's full of weird exceptions and special cases
09:50<frosch123>George: maybe you start counting at 1 when you should start counting at 0
09:50<frosch123>if you start at bit 1, there are only 7 left
09:51<frosch123>you need to start at bit 0 to have all 8
09:51<@Alberth>frosch123: if min(1 << bits_available, 0x80) < nrand: <-- nml check
09:51<George>I've not started it, because it is NML, not NFO
09:52<George>As I wrote, I've splited it into parts and started working
09:52<frosch123>ah, "nrand" is a byte :p
09:52<frosch123>so, yeah grf limitation :p
09:53<@Alberth>George: then please accept limits set by NML
09:54<@Alberth>frosch123: a byte is 7 bits in newgrf?
09:54<George>I'd suggest to remove them from NML, because NFO does not have this limit ;)
09:54<frosch123>it dos
09:54<frosch123>"nrand" specifies the number of cases, must be a power of 2, and is a byte
09:54<frosch123>the byte limits it to 255, the power of two then limits it to 128
09:55<frosch123>it's a newgrf limitation, nothing nml or nfo can do about
09:55<@Alberth>ah, and 256 doesn't fit :D
09:55<George>In NFO I have no problem specifing 256 cases (0-255)
09:56<frosch123>sure you do
09:56<frosch123>256 is more than 255
09:56<frosch123>anyway, you can solve the issue by not using the silly randomswitch thingie, but use var "random_bits" directly
09:57<frosch123>random actions are old junk, which noone should use, unless you have to for rerandomisation
09:57<frosch123>so, just use a normal switch with "random_bits" variable, and you have no silly grf limitations
09:58<George>and where should I specify random triggers (bitmask(TRIGGER_VEHICLE_NEW_LOAD))?
09:59<frosch123>then you have no luck :)
09:59<frosch123>wait for grf v9 or something :p
09:59<frosch123>maybe we can then get rid fo random actions
10:01<andythenorth>can grf v9 get rid of auto-refit cb? :P
10:02<frosch123>it has a built-in block of grfids, which start with 4341
10:02<frosch123>that should solve all IH issues
10:05*andythenorth didn’t know that random switch is silly :)
10:05<andythenorth>when I found it, I was surprised how useful it is
10:05<andythenorth>no more explicit reading random bits
10:05<frosch123>it is as silly as the powered-wagon and wagon-override thing :)
10:06<andythenorth>I spent some time last night trying to figure out if powered-wagon was the right way to do power changing by railtype
10:06<andythenorth>the answer is ‘definitely not'
10:06<frosch123>i thought pikka would have told you that
10:06<andythenorth>he did
10:06<andythenorth>these odd bits of spec are misleading sometimes
10:07<andythenorth>they make it look like there’s a ‘correct’ way to do some tasks
10:07<@Alberth>the specs never explain how to use stuff they provide :(
10:07<George>> wagon-override thing - we use it. What should be used instead?
10:07<andythenorth>it’s better when they provide vars, cbs, props
10:07<andythenorth>and no magic
10:08<@Alberth>+5 on the no magic :)
10:08<andythenorth>I’ll do my own magic in the compile step
10:09<@Alberth>import random; wagon.lifetime = random.random()*15
10:09<andythenorth>powered wagons are silly
10:09<andythenorth>I don’t mean BAD FEATURE, I mean silly
10:10<@Alberth>they're called engines, aren't they?
10:10<andythenorth>want more power? Add engines
10:10<frosch123>George: you can directly use "grfid" and "vehicle_type_id" of the front engine. without the hardly-documented side-effects of wagon-override wrt. speed limits, powered wagons, and other things i do not recall
10:10<@Alberth>as a bonus you get better smoke
10:11<andythenorth>also as a bonus, don’t change vehicle properties depending on what consist they’re attached to
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10:13<andythenorth>I’ve never used livery over-ride, is that stupid too?
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10:14<@Alberth>good feature not trying to use every corner of a spec
10:14<@planetmaker>andythenorth, good feature :)
10:14<@planetmaker>(to not use it)
10:14<frosch123>andythenorth: if you want powered wagons, iirc you have to use wagon overrides :p
10:15<@planetmaker>not really. you could make it an engine callback and check for a user_bit of the wagons which indicates 'power'
10:15<@planetmaker>and count those wagons
10:15<frosch123>planetmaker: i meant "powered wagons" in the specs sense
10:16<@planetmaker>well, important is the gameplay effect. which would iirc be 100% identical?
10:17<frosch123>that has the precondition that you would have to know what powered-wagons does in addition to what one would expect :p
10:17<@planetmaker>you win. :P
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10:25<andythenorth>wtf are ‘user bits’
10:25<andythenorth>I see them, but never see the point
10:26<frosch123>they are a BAD FEATURE :p
10:26<frosch123>i am sure about it :)
10:26<andythenorth>they’re like fake persistent storage?
10:27<andythenorth>but in a non-standard way, and ONLY TRAINS MAY HAVE IT
10:27<@planetmaker>andythenorth, kinda, yes
10:27<frosch123>andythenorth: i have a story
10:27<@planetmaker>not sure there's a CB to change them, though
10:27<frosch123>somewhen someone thought: all ttd game mechanics are wrong
10:28<frosch123>let's design how it should be done, and then implement the perfect solution which does exactly what we want
10:28<frosch123>everyone can write simple add-ons which just use this simple perfec solution
10:29<frosch123>unfortunately the next person that came around had a differen opinion on what is the perfect solution
10:29<andythenorth>and then we all stopped smoking crack?
10:29<frosch123>so, in the end an universal solution was created, which allowed everyone to do what they want
10:29<frosch123>but the old "perfect" solution - which noone wanted anymore - will stick around for eternity
10:29<frosch123>and confuse new people
10:30<frosch123>or trap them into an easy solution, from where they cannot escape if they want to differ even in the slightest
10:30<andythenorth>but it’s nice if you fear callbacks
10:31<andythenorth>and only want to do something for trains 13 years ago
10:37<andythenorth>also where is Eddi|zuHause when he is needed? o_O
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>not following the discussion...
10:38<andythenorth>I have to handle % load states myself in the graphics chain
10:38<andythenorth>what thresholds should I use?
10:38<andythenorth>I have 3 loading / loaded sprite rows
10:38<andythenorth>first one is empty or near-empty, last one is 100% loaded
10:38<andythenorth>middle one is ‘whatever we can be bothered to draw'
10:39<frosch123>0%, 1-99%, 100% ?
10:40<frosch123>isn't that what the player would be interested in?
10:40<andythenorth>I think it might be yes
10:40<andythenorth>none / some / all
10:43<b_jonas>yay, I'm levelling a whole valley for a new railway route
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10:43<b_jonas>I like terraforming
10:43<andythenorth>I am going to do cargo states for Squid as well, have been avoiding it because….drawing
10:43<@planetmaker>:( @ b_jonas
10:43<andythenorth>if I do non / some / all, and ‘all’ is covered up, it’s only one row per cargo to draw
10:43<@planetmaker>btw, it's squid on stable server, andythenorth ;)
10:44<andythenorth>squid needs edibles tankers
10:44<andythenorth>I should do them
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10:44<frosch123>andythenorth: there is moving/loading
10:44<frosch123>so, covered would be "moving"
10:44<andythenorth>so would 100% loaded
10:44<andythenorth>I have spriterows for that already, I just never draw the cargo
10:44<frosch123>but V says that you should always see the loading stage
10:46<andythenorth>3rd-6th rows are current loading states
10:46<andythenorth>in Squid, even if it’s partial load, you get same sprite when moving as 100% load
10:46<andythenorth>due to hatch covers
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10:47<andythenorth>maybe I should leave the covers off, to show the load? o_O
10:47<andythenorth>is it about realisms, or gameplay value of knowing what a ship is carrying?
10:49<@planetmaker>it's strange. I really like my shipping network :)
10:49<@planetmaker>Trains only connect the oceans with eachother :)
10:50<frosch123>"trains are only for connection oceans" would be a nice quote :)
10:50<@planetmaker>:) /me signs that quote :P
10:50<andythenorth>land bridge
10:51<b_jonas>build canals
10:51<frosch123>andythenorth: does fish already have a subtitle?
10:51<@planetmaker>nah, canal accross the mountain looks pretty strange. Too rough landscape for canals
10:51<b_jonas>only because we don't have water tunnels yet
10:52<@planetmaker>andythenorth, doesn't firs tell me when production is increased? Or is my production simply not increased when it doesn't say?
10:52<@planetmaker>just wondering
10:52<b_jonas>they would be useful, and easier to use than rail or road tunnels becuause waterways don't need signals and don't get traffic jams
10:52<frosch123>planetmaker: last time i played it said "gung ho" and such
10:52<frosch123>but not all industries can increase production
10:52<frosch123>industries without supplies always stay the same
10:53<@planetmaker>yeah, I recall that. wonder about fishing harbour. It says production would step up, if...
10:53<andythenorth>yes they don’t tell you
10:53<@planetmaker>and I recon I fulfill that sometimes at least. Yet I didn't get a message.
10:53<andythenorth>I considered doing it, but never got around to it
10:53<@planetmaker>oh :(
10:53<andythenorth>there was some reason it was a PITA
10:53<andythenorth>I suppose I can’t remove all industry window text btw?
10:54<@planetmaker>the waiting cargo also tells me that it's suddenly productive though :)
10:54<@planetmaker>an indicator on production level would be very nice, yes
10:54<andythenorth>I often think so
10:54<andythenorth>but I wish I could remove buy menu text altogether
10:54<andythenorth>then partial compiles would work
10:55<andythenorth>industry text / buy menu text :o
11:05<andythenorth>which vehicle holds the cargo?
11:05*andythenorth bamboozled by own code
11:08<b_jonas>the cargo is in the break wagon
11:09<andythenorth>I should put it all on the engine
11:09<andythenorth>have it count the number of wagons, and take their capacities
11:09<andythenorth>much easier
11:11<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26819 /trunk/src/saveload (afterload.cpp order_sl.cpp) (2014-09-14 15:11:33 UTC)
11:11<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6112] (r26787): trying to delete just loaded objects that had not yet resolved their references caused a crash upon savegame load (only when loading a game from a server, e.g. joining MP)
11:14<@planetmaker>oh, crawlers don't station refit, andythenorth ? :(
11:14<andythenorth>not much in HEQS does
11:14<@peter1138>An ISR update? How rare
11:14<@peter1138>NewGRFs are a lot easier when you don't bother using any
11:14<@planetmaker>puts a damper on my distribution of manu supplies
11:16<andythenorth>I need to get the % loaded
11:16<andythenorth>either on current vehicle or neighbouring vehicle
11:16<andythenorth>I can’t even see which var that is
11:17<andythenorth>might 0xBC according to nml src, never seen that before :O
11:19<andythenorth>so I’ll need something like [STORE_TEMP(${offset}, 0x10F), var[0x61, 0, 0x0000FFFF, 0xBC]]
11:19<andythenorth>which is lovely
11:23<@planetmaker>hm, now I need consist replacement :)
11:23<andythenorth>consist replacement = GOOD FEATURE
11:23<andythenorth>less yak-shaving
11:23<andythenorth>also, maybe I can find an 80+ var :P
11:24<andythenorth>3C W Current cargo load
11:24<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26820 /branches/1.4 (4 files in 3 dirs) (2014-09-14 15:24:39 UTC)
11:24<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Backport from trunk:
11:24<@DorpsGek>- Fix: Crashes on joining a server with pending order backups [FS#6112] (r26819)
11:24<@DorpsGek>- Fix: Crashes on start due to dereferencing the -1 index of the file names array of music files (r26809)
11:24*andythenorth thinks the 80+ vars offer all kinds of BAD FEATURE options
11:25<andythenorth>colour vehicles red if negative profit...
11:25<andythenorth>use smaller sprites as value reduces...
11:28<andythenorth>do I add 80 to 80+ vars? I can never remember
11:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26821 /trunk/src/lang (45 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-14 15:30:47 UTC)
11:30<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
11:30<@DorpsGek>greek - 95 changes by Jubilee
11:30<@DorpsGek>gaelic - 33 changes by GunChleoc
11:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26822 /branches/1.4/src/lang (62 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-14 15:33:52 UTC)
11:34<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Backport from trunk: language updates
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11:35<MNIM>Hello, fellows.
11:35<MNIM>long time no see.
11:36<MNIM>Question. I'm trying to get the canadian stations grf, but it seems to be impossible to find. our favourite fruitstore won't list them ingame, but the site lists them - but no download
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11:39<@planetmaker>yeah... you probably use the wrong version of OpenTTD. Authors only allow some versions. Dunno which
11:39<@planetmaker>bother them to simply set a minimum version and not set a maximum version like they do
11:40<MNIM>trouble is, the site doesn't have a download.
11:41<@planetmaker>bother the authors, they want it that way. We can't change anything.
11:41<Pikka>downloading it from the bananas site works for me
11:41<MNIM>oh wait
11:41<andythenorth>or register on simuscape
11:41<MNIM>my apologies. it seems i am a silly person.
11:42<MNIM>It did not occur to me to click the download count links instead of the grf name
11:43<andythenorth>bananas web UI could be better
11:43<andythenorth>I keep thinking I’ll help fix it
11:43<andythenorth>then I don't
11:43<MNIM>sounds familiar.
11:44<@planetmaker>the web UI is not meant to be a download location really
11:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26823 /branches/1.4/src/lang (5 files) (2014-09-14 15:44:57 UTC)
11:45<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Fix (r26822): a few string changes too many were backported
11:46*MNIM grrrrrrs.
11:46<MNIM>I managed to load it, but it gets disabled due to incompatible active graphic file(s).
11:48<andythenorth>it’s canadian
11:49<andythenorth>they do that
11:49<andythenorth>there are valid reasons for it
11:49<@planetmaker>you supposedly try to play it an invalid way :P
11:49<MNIM>I say, it's decidedly uncanadian!
11:49<MNIM>didn't even say 'sorry' once!
11:50<@planetmaker>yeah, author is German. They're know to not say sorry or please ;)
11:50<frosch123>planetmaker: german-canadian?
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11:51<frosch123>i don't think it counts as "german"
11:51<frosch123>though it's funny to read :)
11:51<MNIM>you done missed an 'n' i think.
11:52<MNIM>hmmmh. now i managed to load it, but the graphics are all corrupted. not the palette, either.
11:52<andythenorth>OzTrans is german?
11:52<andythenorth>I didn’t know that
11:52<@planetmaker>just a guess
11:52<@peter1138>what, guessing due to arrogance?
11:52<frosch123>andythenorth: he made some posts on the german forum
11:53<@planetmaker>yep, another famours trait
11:53<frosch123>he writes german as it was spoken 150 years ago
11:53<frosch123>so, he is likely from a proud little community somewhere in canada, who praises their german roots or something
11:54<frosch123>(if i am mistaken, and he is in fact german, it only makes it funnier, btw)
11:54<MNIM>don't y'all write like it was spoken 100 years ago, anyway?
11:55<+glx>oh like french canadian using old french language :)
11:55<frosch123>i guess so :)
11:55<@planetmaker>probably :)
11:56<MNIM>Bah. i had to resort to the 0.3d version before it works.
11:56<MNIM>Oh well. it seems there's not much new in the 1.6 version, anyway
12:00<Eddi|zuHause><MNIM> don't y'all write like it was spoken 100 years ago, anyway? <- no, there were two major spellling reforms in the beginning and end of the 20th century
12:01<andythenorth>how to calculate % loaded reliably in nml?
12:01<andythenorth>I am getting current loaded amount from [STORE_TEMP(${offset}, 0x10F), var[0x61, 0, 0x000000FF, 0xBC]]
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>is the formula i use
12:04<andythenorth>so I just substitute that in the expression above?
12:04<andythenorth>what mask?
12:04<Eddi|zuHause> self.value = "cargo_count*100/cargo_capacity"
12:04<Eddi|zuHause> slice_var = "[STORE_TEMP(%d, 0x10F), var[0x61, 0, 0x0000FFFF, %s]*100/var[0x61, 0, 0x0000FFFF, %s]]"%(veh_slice, "0xBC", "0xBA")
12:04<andythenorth>should I just go read CETS :P
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>in scripts/ if you're interested
12:06<@peter1138>this good_year/bad_year thing is broken, right?
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i never quite knew what it was actually measuring. i think it was performance rating
12:07<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26824 /branches/1.4 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2014-09-14 16:07:01 UTC)
12:07<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Update documentation
12:07<@peter1138>yeah i guess so
12:08<@peter1138>old_economy[0] compared to old_economy[4]
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>that seems silly
12:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26825 /tags/1.4.3-RC2 (3 files in 3 dirs) (2014-09-14 16:08:44 UTC)
12:08<@DorpsGek>-Release: 1.4.3-RC2
12:11<@peter1138>nah, makes sense. i alway thought it was something to do with income that's all
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12:47<MNIM>Eddi|zuHause: only two? lol - the dutch have those once every five years. :P
12:47<MNIM>(usually to undo the damage of the last one) XD
12:48<b_jonas>we haven't had a major spelling reform for ages
12:48<b_jonas>we don't need one either, mind you
12:48<frosch123>i think the one at the end of the century came in two revisions
12:48<b_jonas>(of course some people always come up with crazy proposals)
12:49<Rubidium>given MNIM's interpretation of 'five years', I doubt I'll make thirty
12:50<frosch123>b_jonas: is your spelling based on a bible translation by some guy from 500 years ago?
12:51<Rubidium>MNIM: spelling 'reforms' in the Netherlands: 1883, 1947, 1996, 2006 (every 5 years equates to, on average, once every 40 years in the real world)
12:52<frosch123>is there a relation between dutch spelling reforms and c++ standards?
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think there was a c++ standard in 1883
12:52<Rubidium>though... to be fair, in 1994 they decided to revise the spelling every 10 years
12:53<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the 98 one is even the first one :p
12:53<MNIM>Rubidium: every five years there's a new 'groene boekje' - it's not my interpretation of 'five years', rather my interpretation of 'major' :P
12:53<b_jonas>frosch123: no, I don't think so
12:54<frosch123>b_jonas: maybe that's the reason you do not need a reform?
12:54<b_jonas>admittedly, the rulebook was rewritten like a decade ago, for the worse, so I still prefer the edition just before that,
12:54*Rubidium has found a new word for the spelling test: ideeëloos
12:55<b_jonas>but that's just about the presentation of the rules, not about their content
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>the council responsible for the german spelling reform consists of equal amount of representatives from germany, switzerland and austria, and minority representatives from belgium, luxemburg and south tirol (italy)
12:55<b_jonas>the spelling itself is almost the same, with only minor differences
12:55<@Alberth>Rubidium: nice one :)
12:56<b_jonas>Rubidium: is that like Shifffarht?
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: what a horrible misspelling :p
12:57<Rubidium>b_jonas: no, there's a general rule that there should be a 'n' between two words that are concatenated, with some exceptions
12:58<b_jonas>or like bookkeeper
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's "ideenlos" in german (if my assumption of meaning is correct)
12:58<Rubidium>for example "ideeënbus" (idea box)
12:59<Rubidium>but apparantly this case the n is not added to be more consistent with "besluiteloos" (not being able to make a decision), ideeëloos = not having any ideas
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>but i'd say that the n there is from plural
13:00<Rubidium>but it's "pannenkoek" (pan cake), but I doubt you make it in multiple pans
13:00<b_jonas>this is _so_ much easier in French, for it almost never juxtaposes words without a space
13:00<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.4.2, 1.4.3-RC2
13:00-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.4.2, 1.4.3-RC2 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think there's a general rule how to concatenate words. you randomly insert an 's' some of the time
13:00<Rubidium>whereas it's "koninginnedag" (queens day), even though Belgium has like 3 queens
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>well, the german word "Pfannkuchen" doesn't actually mean a pan cake
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>(depending on region)
13:01<frosch123>sure it does :)
13:02<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: is that singular?
13:02<Rubidium>or is there no singular?
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>it also exists in the form "Pfannekuchen"
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>although that is much rarer
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: difficult to tell, because "Pfann" is missing the ending completely. singular is "Pfanne" and plural is "Pfannen"
13:04<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I was kinda asking for the kuchen part
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>that is one of those (fairly common) words that have the same form in singular and plural
13:04<@planetmaker>I'd not call that common. But yeah :)
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>almost all words whose singular ends in -en don't change form in plural
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>some of them add an umlaut
13:05<frosch123>küchen :)
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: not quite :p
13:05<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: kühchen?
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>i don't want to know what happens inside your brain :p
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>i mean like the plural of "Wagen" is "Wagen", only rarely (old-fashioned) you might find "Wägen"
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: adding an -er ending sounds swedish :p
13:08<frosch123>luckily there is no rule to duplicate vocals for pluaral
13:08<frosch123>then it would be "waagen"
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but "Waagen" is already the plural of "Waage"
13:09<frosch123>exactly :p
13:10<frosch123>but, ok, the latin-ish way would likely duplicate the "e", so: wageen
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: when you can think of several examples out of the top of your head, you can call it "common"
13:10<frosch123>all except finitely many?
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that only works for infinite sets :p
13:11<frosch123>yeah, but it's funnier with finite sets
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>whereas the number of words that have ever been used may be unbounded, but certainly finite
13:12<frosch123>i do not agree
13:12<frosch123>the amount of non-sense people can talk is infinite
13:13<frosch123>so, the amount of sproken stuff must be infinite as well
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>but the amount of nonsense people can talk is not the basis of dictionaries
13:13<frosch123>are you sure?
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>dictionaries are based on what was actually spoken at some point
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>and only finitely many people had a finite amount of time to utter non-zero length phrases, or write them down
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>the potential compound words in german are infinite, but almost none of them were ever used
13:18<b_jonas>so the German speakers are wasting almost all the potential of their language?
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13:19<Eddi|zuHause>as is the potential of numbers...
13:19<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I guess it can, relatively easily, be proven that 0% of the potential compound words is written down
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that is what i said
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: any finite subset of an infinite set is 0% :)
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13:50<andythenorth>where is map array?
13:50<andythenorth>4 year old wants me to change it to add subways :P
13:50<andythenorth>I have explained this is not easy
13:51<b_jonas>andythenorth: isn't there an opengfx for that?
13:51<b_jonas>with some train or tram type imitating subways
13:51<b_jonas>sadly that means they can't go under house or industry squares
13:52<andythenorth>he thinks I should add “UNDERGROUND_TRAIN” to L58 of map.cpp
13:53<@peter1138>do it
13:55<@Alberth>make invisible trains that drive between normal trains?
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>there is a newgrf that replaces trams with invisible versions
13:58<b_jonas>andythenorth: can you just install him a copy of Locomotion?\
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>a way i imagined subways to work was somewhat similar to that. basically, roadtypes get a "vertical offset", so that vehicles of this offset won't collide with vehicles of different offsets
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>additional work needed for connecting different offset types together
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>("traffic objects")
14:00<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: but the difficulty is that metros can go under houses
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: but they rarely do
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: most subways run under roads
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>as that makes it easier to build them
14:00<b_jonas>that's only the surface type of subways, the ones that are built by opening the road
14:00<b_jonas>but those can't go under a river so they're useless
14:00<b_jonas>real subways have tunnels digged
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>then you can still build tunnels
14:01<b_jonas>implement them as underground airplanes, and add newgrf airports that look like metro stations
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>(in those tunnels of course you can't have stations or turns)
14:01<b_jonas>or signals
14:02<b_jonas>let's add stargates and teleporter stations too though
14:02<b_jonas>as fast future transport methods
14:02<+glx>teleporters already exist, they are called tunnels ;)
14:02<b_jonas>no, the point of teleporters is that their speed would be independent of the distance of the two stations
14:03<b_jonas>so it's worth only for teleporting vehicles to faraway places of the map
14:03<andythenorth>he’s drawn us some underground tracks
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14:10<andythenorth>Iron Horse is 1 bug and 1 improvement away from a 1.0.0 :P
14:10<andythenorth>anyone care to spoil my day?
14:16*Alberth wouldn't dare :)
14:16<Rubidium>does it provide LU trains?
14:17<b_jonas>what trains?
14:19<Rubidium>London Underground
14:19<Rubidium>after all... his four year old needs them
14:33<Eddi|zuHause> <b_jonas> or signals <-- there are no signals for roadtypes
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14:47<andythenorth>Rubidium: there are some LU-ish trains in Iron Horse
14:47<andythenorth>one is named after a sewer
14:47<andythenorth>how nice
14:49<MNIM>andythenorth: The Rhine?
14:53<@planetmaker>the rhine is actually surprisingly healthy river
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15:04<b_jonas>the Ankh then?
15:05<frosch123>the ankh probably is alive by itself
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15:07<andythenorth>game balance :P
15:08<andythenorth>also why do variable power engines show the highest option in buy menu?
15:08<andythenorth>seems likely to cause disappointment :P
15:08<frosch123>normal advertising
15:08<frosch123>up to 5000hp ?
15:09<frosch123>guaranteed not more
15:09<@planetmaker>up to 5000HP[*]
15:09<frosch123>oh, true, missed the *
15:09<@planetmaker>[*] Only Fridays between 23:30h and 23:59h and on February 30th
15:09<andythenorth>‘up to’ would be a nice way to handle it :)
15:09<andythenorth>it must be running the cb somehow in purchase menu
15:10<Rubidium>Acceleration: 0 to 60 mph in 2 seconds
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15:10<Rubidium>so much fun in a country in dubio about the unit
15:11<Rubidium>mostly because anything that can't reach 0.06 km/h in 2 seconds must be really really slow
15:12<frosch123>ah, i thought you were refering to ottd time scales
15:12<frosch123>0 to 100 km/h in 1 day
15:15<b_jonas>as for that, the available railway vehicles and buy vehicles dialog should show the railtypes the train or wagon can run on
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15:35<andythenorth>"Triggers may not be set for random_switch feature 0 and type 'BACKWARD_SELF’”
15:37<andythenorth>more yak-shaving
15:47<andythenorth>bloody decorators
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16:40<andythenorth>building on tunnel entrances
16:40<andythenorth>would be close enough to subway
16:40<andythenorth>there’s something practical problem with that feature?
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16:58<Supercheese>perhaps the catch-all excuse of "map array"?
16:59<Supercheese>it is a valid concern...
17:10<@peter1138>remember when i had working "custom bridge heads"
17:11<andythenorth>I heard a tale of it
17:11<andythenorth>I even saw a screenshot
17:11<b_jonas>peter1138: what are those?
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: afair the problem was really only graphical, and possibly with a restriction on what can be on top
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>no, more like junctions and signals
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17:16<b_jonas>junctions on bridge heads? how could that work?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>i meant on tunnel entrance
17:18<b_jonas>oh, you mean on top?
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>but yes, custom bridge heads would also allow junctions
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes, on top
17:18<andythenorth>startup drive seems to be fucked
17:18<andythenorth>or never :P
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18:08<@peter1138>hmm, if accuraterip says every single track is wrong...
18:08<@peter1138>i might just ignore it :S
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19:18<SpComb> updated pngtile with leaflet.js and bootstrap shizzles
19:18<SpComb>although still just running as dev, 'cause it's too late to figure out how to package up a full foo.h stack for deployment into a virtualenv
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20:57<Eddi|zuHause>that sentence made no sense whatsoever
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 15 00:00:11 2014