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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-16

---Logopened Tue Sep 16 00:00:12 2014
00:46<Supercheese>Hee, fun translation: "Thickness of lines" -> "Crassitudo linearum"
00:48<Supercheese>I must now find a way to use the English word "crassitude" in a conversation
00:54<Supercheese>Yay, ablative supines
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01:00<Supercheese>Triple ablative supine clauses, whew
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03:02<@peter1138>well i suppose someone needs to keep latin alive?
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03:52<BekarfelPC>how do I rotate my view in OpenTTD 1.4.2?
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03:57<__ln__>turn your head
03:57<b_jonas>BekarfelPC: you can't do that. many tiles just don't have rotated graphics.
03:58<BekarfelPC>what a horrible game
03:59<b_jonas>use the transparency settings to show what's behind trees and buildings
03:59<andythenorth>he’s right
03:59<andythenorth>it’s horrible
03:59<andythenorth>we should quit
04:00<BekarfelPC>I ain't quit yet, so stuff it, andythenorth
04:00*andythenorth stuffs it
04:00<andythenorth>where is it now though?
04:00<b_jonas>incidentally, has openttd implemented that option where transparency applies only to the tiles on the bottom half of the screen, like in ttdpatch?
04:00<BekarfelPC>it's stuff'd. 'nuff said
04:01<andythenorth>is it a bot?
04:02<BekarfelPC>no. I am not a bot. what makes you think I'm a bot. I'M INNOCENT I SAY!@$?@#%#^y%$^&%$&*%&*(^&
04:02*planetmaker can't even imagine how and where that would be useful, b_jonas
04:02<andythenorth>how do you know you’re not a bot?
04:02<@planetmaker>andythenorth, mind your matrix ;)
04:03<andythenorth>planetmaker: are you a bot?
04:03<@planetmaker>I also heard rumours of an american roster set?
04:03<b_jonas>hmm, well, more useful might be some way to mark squares containing trees in such a way that the overlapping transparent tree silhouettes don't cover all the squares behind
04:03<b_jonas>like, with little circles on the ground or something
04:03<BekarfelPC>my charging outlet tells me so
04:03<@planetmaker>except I malfunction as a bot :P
04:04<andythenorth>planetmaker: american roster set? o_O
04:04<@planetmaker>read your IH thread :P
04:04<andythenorth>I saw that
04:04<BekarfelPC>I am so confused
04:04<andythenorth>we’re not doing american next
04:05<andythenorth>something else planned
04:05<@planetmaker>what's next?
04:05<andythenorth>american will happen later
04:05<@planetmaker>bandit revived?
04:05<andythenorth>finish Squid, do Road Hog
04:05<@planetmaker>hm :) good prospect, I guess
04:05<@planetmaker>squid rcs are nice. But told you already :)
04:06<@planetmaker>heck, it made me really enjoy a game for leasure only after quite some time :)
04:06<andythenorth>they’re nearly done, just need pikka to do hover zellepins
04:06<@planetmaker>and w/o game script :)
04:06<andythenorth>and I need to do an extra tanker
04:07<@planetmaker>it got about the right stepping in cargo capacity with that set. Kudos really :)
04:07<andythenorth>thanks :)
04:07<andythenorth>it took some work
04:07<andythenorth>lots of back and forth
04:07<@planetmaker>yeah. Well. It paid off, I think
04:07<andythenorth>I know this re-designing isn’t popular
04:07<andythenorth>but I don’t see how else to make it good
04:07*planetmaker doesn't quite care so much. If one doesn't like a new(er) version, just use the old
04:08<andythenorth>I also learnt how much MB got right with NewShips
04:08<andythenorth>Squid kind of has similar roster in the end
04:08<andythenorth>and unrealistically fast speeds
04:09<b_jonas>realism... aww
04:10<@planetmaker>well, 40 km/h is not that unrealistic, tbh
04:14<andythenorth>r/l is more like 25km/h
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07:35<jA_cOp>Hello :) I'm new to the game, trying to set up so a train drops goods for transfer and picks up coal, then another train doing the converse, dropping coal for transfer and picking up goods. Is this possible? If not, are there any good workarounds?
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>you need to enable cargo distribution (anything other than "manual") for this to work
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07:37<Eddi|zuHause>also, you need a vehicle set that allows refitting at stations (autorefit)
07:38<jA_cOp>Ah neat, I see it has a wiki article and I'm using 1.4.3-RC2, so I should be able to use it. Thanks
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>the default vehicles cannot do this, but for example opengfx+trains
07:38<jA_cOp>Both trains have both goods and coal carriages
07:38<jA_cOp>not the most efficient but it should work without refitting, right?
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>ah, that can work as well, then
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07:51*pure wonders. Is there much different between the stable release and nightly builds at the moment?
07:51<b_jonas>jA_cOp: I usually just put them on separate trains, but one train can work as well
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>pure: there is no comprehensive changelog yet, so it's difficult to tell
07:52<b_jonas>but you know power stations don't produce goods, right? :)
07:52<jA_cOp>It's not the power station that produces the goods, it's a sawmill
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07:53<pure>Do power stations actually do anything, that said?
07:54<b_jonas>pure: they pay you lots of money, very useful in early game. and they emit smoke, which you can now hide if you make industries transparent.
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>they just eat your coal. actually, it isn't your coal.
07:55<pure>So they don't do anything with the coal?
07:56<b_jonas>they burn it
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>do you do anything with your food?
07:56<V453000>they burn it duh :D
07:56<pure>I mean, it doesn't make power to make factories more efficient or anything ;)
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>neither does it affect your electrified railways
07:57<pure>It should!
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08:00<b_jonas>pure: in some newgfxs, coal works like in locomotion in that you can transport it to either a power station or a steel mill, and a steel mill requires both coal and iron ore
08:01<b_jonas>those steel mills also have nice graphics
08:01<b_jonas>not realistic, but nice
08:02<b_jonas>with sparkle and molten metal flowing if the mill is active
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08:03<pure>Is it Simutrans where power stations actually do stuff?
08:05<b_jonas>dunno, maybe it's Civilization?
08:05<pure>So, if the commuter airport has more throughput than city airports, do they replace city airports if they've not already been replaced by metripolitans?
08:06<b_jonas>no wait
08:06<b_jonas>it's Simcity
08:06<b_jonas>pure: what do you mean "replace"?
08:07<pure>Make redundant/obselete?
08:07<b_jonas>I don't think large airports in the default gfx are ever replaced
08:07<b_jonas>I don't think so, because the larger airports are probably more expensive to construct and maintain
08:08<pure>Though commuter still count as small airports, so they can't handle jets?
08:09<b_jonas>pure: no, I don't think so
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>some aircraft sets have planes that can land on small airports even in late stages of the game
08:09<b_jonas> says the City Airport "is the first airport available that can handle jet aircraft"
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>commuter counts as small airport
08:10<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: I think even the default set has those, but those airplanes are usually not worth to use
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>i don't usually use aircraft anyway
08:10<b_jonas>they have a too small capacity
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>they have terrible capacity
08:11<b_jonas> shows
08:11<pure>I am considering having a sort of branching system for my airports, with a single intercontinental serving some internationals serving metro/cities, with some city/metros serving commuters.
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>allegedly, the international airport can handle more aircraft than the intercontinental
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>due to some inefficiencies in the ground routing
08:12<pure>Right, even thought the intercon has double the runways?
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08:14<pure>I wonder if sticking to intercontinental airports together would be an alright idea.
08:15<b_jonas>pure: you can't do that, not with the default setting of station spread
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot combine airports
08:15<pure>Yes, but if you amped up the station spread?
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>but you can have separate stations and connect them with a shuttle bus or tram
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>with cargodist
08:16<b_jonas>pure: if you want to handle such large traffic, trains are usually more efficient
08:16<pure>Is it possible to have airplanes intelligently route to the station with the least traffic?
08:20<@peter1138>tempted to enable cdist for passengers in my next game
08:20<__ln__>pure: for every question involving "is it possible to do ____ intelligently", the answer is no.
08:21<pure>I tend to have it enabled for all cargo.
08:21<pure>__ln__: ha
08:21<pure>Are helicopters ever better than just having a bus connected to an airport?
08:22<b_jonas>pure: dunno, maybe if you have a challenge like transfer passengers to all oil rigs
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08:56<pure>I always thought that oil rigs weren't worth it for how manage passangers they give
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10:55<pure>Is there any sort of roadmap for 1.4/1.5?
10:57<@planetmaker>1.4 is finished and will only receive bug fixes till 1.5 is released
10:57<@planetmaker>and there's no road map. Stuff happens and gets written. And that will be included in 1.5
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10:58<@planetmaker>If you play our nightlies you get a pretty good idea of what 1.5 will look like. They're 1.5.0-alpha
10:58<djmattyg>What sorts of things are planned for 1.5?
10:59<@planetmaker>roadmap is the same as planning :)
10:59<@planetmaker>no-one can say really. Whatever takes people's fancy, what they finalize such that it can get included
11:02<@planetmaker>however there's a somewhat maintained todo list in the wiki:
11:02<@planetmaker>if *someone* takes on those tasks, they've a really high chance :)
11:04<djmattyg>Thanks for the link
11:06<b_jonas>high chance of what?
11:07<b_jonas>is the group of a vehicle displayed somewhere in the vehicle dialog box or one of its sub-dialogs; as opposed to the vehicles list?
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11:19<DanMacK>Hey all
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12:40<pure>planetmaker: is there a list of stuff that's in the nightlies but not in stable?
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12:42*pure would love to see shared infrastructure be a thing, that said.
12:43<@Alberth>pure: mostly all commits labeled "feature" since last march or so
12:43*pure nods.
12:44<@planetmaker>quak and hi :)
12:44<@Alberth>hi hi planetmaker
12:44<@planetmaker> <-- without any guarantee of being complete
12:45<pure>Is the git repo literally just a mirror to svn?
12:45<frosch123>except it is only trunk
12:45<frosch123>moin everyone :)
12:46*pure still can't bring himself to like svn :P
12:46<frosch123>it would be worse the other way around :p
12:46<pure>git is beautiful :p
12:46*Alberth can't love git
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12:48*planetmaker wouldn't like being forced to mess with git
12:48*pure started with git, so finds everything else alien.
12:48<frosch123>yeah, then you are stuck :p
12:48<pure>I -can- use svn, I just don't fully understand it nor why it does stuff like it do :P
12:48<Sylf>you're so lucky that git was available when you started with version controls
12:49<frosch123>though he was unlucky to not find hg first
12:49<@Rubidium>there's one major drawback to git, at least at my office...
12:49<@Rubidium>people forget to commit stuff, so undoubtedly they forget to push stuff as well
12:49<@planetmaker>lol :)
12:50<andythenorth>git ftw
12:50<frosch123>rather common issue
12:50<Sylf>no tool is a silverbullet against human errors
12:50<@Rubidium>and since they're commit 2 weeks of work at once kind of guys, the extra push step is kinda a PITA
12:50<andythenorth>dunno why, but git vastly suits me more than hg
12:50<andythenorth>it’s not better, just better fitted to me
12:50<andythenorth>engineers seem to confuse ‘is better’ with ‘fits me better'
12:50<andythenorth>and then reach for pseudo-objective bullshit to back up their prejudice :P
12:50<pure>oh, no, no, no
12:51<pure>git is objectively better ;)
12:51<Sylf>I haven't had a chance to use git or hg yet....
12:51<@Rubidium>having said that, I wouldn't want to dare to do complex merges because even a simple merge requires manually copying code...
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12:51<@planetmaker>Sylf, as piece of advice: if you do, start with hg first.
12:52<pure>git does handle merges pretty well.
12:52<Sylf>convincing my office to use any kind of version control was hard enough...
12:52<@Rubidium>pure: arguably git doesn't do binary merges of LabVIEW files
12:53<Sylf>I see that hg is what coop dev site uses, so that helps, pm.
12:53<@planetmaker>Sylf, I'm still having that hard time. I simply setup a repo and made use of it. And if collegues ask me for some of my code I direct them at that server :)
12:53<@planetmaker>That slowly seems to work
12:53<@planetmaker>very slowly, but does
12:53<pure>well, no, but can any SVC do that out of the box? (Also, -source code-, LabVIEW files aren't exactly source code :P)
12:54<@planetmaker>sure they are source code. What else?
12:54<pure>Binary files
12:54<pure>Source code by definition is text, surely?
12:54<frosch123>nfs is far supporior to vcs then :P
12:54<andythenorth>Iron Horse has 8 BAD FEATURES
12:54<Sylf>my first exposure to version control was cvs. I'll survive anything.
12:54<andythenorth>the limit is 3 :(
12:54<@Rubidium>pure: true, none can... but with git you tend to do development and merge, whereas with svn that isn't the basic idea
12:54<Sylf>as long as it's anything newer than cvs.
12:55<frosch123>how about sccs or rcs then?
12:55<@Alberth>frosch123: it's not newer :p
12:55<@planetmaker>haha, Sylf :) That one I tried ages ago. I found it... extremely unintuitive to use
12:55<pure>Though, iirc, git might support plugins for merging certain files and stuff
12:55<frosch123>Alberth: psst :)
12:56<Sylf>I'll just survive. Not make a full use out of them :D
12:56<frosch123>how about an advanced setting to hide the fast-forward button?
12:56<pure>Though with binaries files, I'd just merge based upon modified date/whichever one is mine, rather than diff.
12:56<frosch123>keeps people from complaining that it is too fast resp. not faster at all
12:57<@Alberth>pure: good luck in a distributed system then
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12:58<pure>Though diffing well know file types shouldn't be too hard. There must be pngdiff and stuff along those lines.
12:58*pure digresses and wanders off.
12:58<frosch123>labview is not well known, it even fails to load its own files from 2 versions ago
12:58<frosch123>but, ok, my knowledge starts to age about labview
12:59<frosch123>i guess i just it 2006 the last time or so
12:59<@Alberth>I have seen it, that's about it :)
12:59<@planetmaker>I didn't use it for two years probably. But ... yeah, it's a pita. I learned the hard way that it's a bad idea to update your labview install
12:59<@Rubidium>frosch123: 8.6.1 to 2012 went relatively fine
12:59<@planetmaker>good that I still had the backup clone of the hard disk :)
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13:08<DanMacK>Hey all
13:09<@Alberth>hi hi
13:14<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26828 trunk/src/openttd.cpp (2014-09-16 17:14:07 UTC)
13:14<@DorpsGek>-Fix: memory leak when passing -c multiple times
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13:40<V453000>what could be the cause of this?
13:40<V453000>I have default extends and NOCROP as flag for the building sprites
13:41<V453000>offsets are probably not correct either but idk if that could be the cause
13:41<V453000>things arent just offset as a whole, rather messed up in general
13:41<Sylf>demented factory
13:42<V453000>that it is
13:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26829 /trunk/src/lang (7 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-16 17:47:02 UTC)
13:47<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:47<@DorpsGek>finnish - 19 changes by jpx_
13:47<@DorpsGek>persian - 65 changes by Garga
13:47<@DorpsGek>polish - 4 changes by wojteks86
13:47<@DorpsGek>russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:47<@DorpsGek>swedish - 31 changes by spacejens
13:47<@DorpsGek>urdu - 80 changes by siphr
13:47<@DorpsGek>welsh - 42 changes by kazzie
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13:56<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26830 trunk/src/lang/swedish.txt (2014-09-16 17:56:15 UTC)
13:56<@DorpsGek>-Fix: WT3 string validation
13:56<andythenorth>DanMacK: o/
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15:59<__ln__>buonasera, signore.
16:05<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26831 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel (4 files) (2014-09-16 20:05:21 UTC)
16:05<@DorpsGek>-Fix [Squirrel]: (bogus) warning about falling through in a switch
16:06<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26832 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel (sqapi.cpp sqclosure.h) (2014-09-16 20:06:05 UTC)
16:06<@DorpsGek>-Fix [Squirrel]: ensure instance variable of SQNativeClosure is properly initialized
16:06<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26833 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel (sqapi.cpp sqcompiler.cpp) (2014-09-16 20:06:28 UTC)
16:06<@DorpsGek>-Fix [Squirrel]: remove a few bits of dead code
16:07<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26834 trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqfuncproto.h (2014-09-16 20:07:19 UTC)
16:07<@DorpsGek>-Fix [Squirrel]: prevent unitialized memory warning by moving code from (static) Init to constructure for SQFunctionProto
16:07<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26835 trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqlexer.cpp (2014-09-16 20:07:47 UTC)
16:07<@DorpsGek>-Fix [Squirrel]: remove dead code from the lexer
16:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26836 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel (3 files) (2014-09-16 20:08:44 UTC)
16:08<@DorpsGek>-Fix [Squirrel]: merge SQLexer::Init with the constructor; there's no need to construct first and then call init in the next line
16:09<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26837 trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqfuncstate.cpp (2014-09-16 20:09:20 UTC)
16:09<@DorpsGek>-Fix [Squirrel]: remove some pointless assignments
16:14<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26838 trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqcompiler.h (2014-09-16 20:14:03 UTC)
16:14<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26831): attempt to make MSVC like the code again
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16:44<__ln__>is anyone aware of a serial protocol intended for an external device to poll whether a piece of software is still running on a computer? (i.e. some kind of a watchdog)
16:44<__ln__>and to keep it on-topic, yeah sure i want to do this with a newgrf.
16:48<JorickL>Hmm, not that I'm aware off, and I'm not sure if I'm helping you with this, but isn't it possible to include it in your software (no idea in what language newgrf's are made), but via the TCP protocol you could set listeners on ports on your PC. The laggy thing is: you need to forward those ports in your router to the PC where the software is running... And thus you need to set that up in the
16:48<JorickL>'client' on the external device.
16:48<__ln__>in this case i'd like to keep things simple and avoid using network; just serial interface.
16:49<@planetmaker>what about a normal terminal? VESA?
16:49<JorickL>Just curious, what kind of 'device' needs to comunicate with the PC? :)
16:51<__ln__>the external device would constantly ask the computer "are you still alive?", and if no response is received within e.g. 2 minutes, the external device does something, e.g. sets a digital output pin to 1.
16:51<__ln__>which could then reset the computer, or send an alarm, or whatever.
16:52<@Rubidium>__ln__: ?
16:53<__ln__>Rubidium: yeah, something like that, but what i'm asking is whether there's any commonly used protocol for such devices, or do they all use their own.
16:57<JorickL>You could create one yourself if you'd like to... ;-)
16:57<frosch123>oh noes, we got featured again
16:59<JorickL>Basicly: the device needs to send a signal - no matter what kind of signal - to the PC on one of the (Virtual) COM-ports... The PC needs software running and listening to that COM-port, to send a 'response'. The controller device needs to know what the PC is sending back as an 'OK-signal' and then do nothing.
17:00<JorickL>And you can use any port if you like, even a second LAN connection on your PC will do the job, if the controller-device can talk back via the same protocol
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17:03<__ln__>i'm feeling i'm not making myself clear enough... i have no uncertainty about the principle on which the device should operate; i'm merely asking if there is a serial protocol for all that.
17:06<JorickL>Not that I'm aware of
17:10<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26839 trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.cpp (2014-09-16 21:10:01 UTC)
17:10<@DorpsGek>-Fix [Squirrel]: some dead code and making switch fall throughs more explicit
17:11<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26840 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel (3 files) (2014-09-16 21:11:14 UTC)
17:11<@DorpsGek>-Fix [Squirrel]: merge Init and constructor of SQSharedState
17:13<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26841 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel (sqstate.cpp sqstring.h) (2014-09-16 21:13:24 UTC)
17:13<@DorpsGek>-Codechange [Squirrel]: move the actual initialisation of instance variables of SQString into the constructor
17:14<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26842 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel (3 files) (2014-09-16 21:14:18 UTC)
17:14<@DorpsGek>-Codechange [Squirrel]: other simple cases of non-initialised instance variables
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---Logclosed Wed Sep 17 00:00:13 2014