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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-19

---Logopened Fri Sep 19 00:00:16 2014
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00:58<jA_cOp>Eddi|zuHause, doesn't it say the transfer credits instead of losses though?
00:59<jA_cOp>I guess if you look at the money counter instead of the popup
00:59<Eddi|zuHause>jA_cOp: if it overestimates the transfer income, then the last vehicle will report a loss
01:00<Eddi|zuHause>which regularly happens if the last vehicle is slow, or moving in the wrong direction
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03:51<andythenorth>ho ho
03:52<andythenorth>horse carts and FIRS
03:58<@planetmaker>moin moin
04:05<ArdaXi>hi guys. not sure if this is the right channel, but I tried compiling openttd on solaris yesterday and it failed because strgen_base.cpp uses alloca without including alloca.h
04:06<ArdaXi>I included #include <alloca.h> and it compiled perfectly, so it seems like a bit of a bug to me
04:09<@planetmaker>ArdaXi, could you make a patch and open an issue in our bug tracker for that?
04:11<@planetmaker>but to answer your question: yes, you've come to the right place
04:11<Pikka>"I play with slow vehicles and large maps, and it takes so long to transport cargo, how to fix?"
04:11<@planetmaker>Nice quote, Pikka :)
04:12<Pikka>moin boin planetmaker and andythenorth
04:12<andythenorth>such quotes
04:12<andythenorth>I couldn’t think how to answer that one
04:13<ArdaXi>planetmaker: can do, yeah, I'm just not entirely sure whether it's a good idea to put that in for all OSes
04:13<ArdaXi>seeing as it apparently compiles fine without including the header on more common platforms
04:14<ArdaXi>although that might be because stdlib.h includes alloca.h in glibc
04:14<@planetmaker>ArdaXi, well, can be guarded by os-specific #ifdef
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04:17<@planetmaker>ArdaXi, I wonder whether it should be in stdafx.h
04:17<__ln__>ArdaXi: the linux man page also says alloca is in <alloca.h>
04:17<@planetmaker>probably... strgen/strgen_base.cpp includes it
04:17<ArdaXi>__ln__: yes, but it also says that alloca.h is included by stdlib.h
04:18<__ln__>does it matter though, is another thing
04:18<andythenorth>Pikka: how is BNE?
04:18<Pikka>rollin' along. a bit smokey on wednesday.
04:20<@planetmaker>ArdaXi, it's strange. See src/stdafx.h:108
04:20<@planetmaker>it's included there. Do you have some (different) version of solaris which is not covered by that?
04:20<@planetmaker>if you try to fix it, please try to fix it in that place, if possible
04:21<ArdaXi>planetmaker: oh yes, it is, very interesting
04:21<ArdaXi>it recognised my OS as SUNOS so I doubt it's that
04:22<@peter1138>heh, weird things with /home on nfs... sudo mv can't remove the file...
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04:32<ArdaXi>planetmaker: seems like SUNOS is not defined on my platform, that would explain that
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04:36<ArdaXi>seems like it should be either __sun instead
04:36<ArdaXi>well, that or sun or __sun__
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04:38<ArdaXi>yup, replacing the instances of SUNOS by __sun works
04:41<@planetmaker>#if defined(SUNOS) || defined(HPUX) || defined(__SUN__)
04:42<@planetmaker>^ that would work?
04:42<@planetmaker>what Solaris specifically do you use?
04:42<@planetmaker>__SUN or __SUN__ ?
04:43<ArdaXi>according to solaris documentation, the standard is __sun
04:45<ArdaXi>well, I got it from here, trying to find it on the solaris site now
04:46<ArdaXi> under -Dname[=def]
04:48<ArdaXi>I'm not sure there's an OS that predefines SUNOS, unless you define it through autoconf I s'pose
04:49<@planetmaker>autoconf and OpenTTD hardly go together :)
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04:52<ArdaXi>I did notice a ./configure thing that recognised my being on SUNOS tho
04:54<@planetmaker> os=`echo "$host" | tr '[A-Z]' '[a-z]' | $awk '
04:54<@planetmaker> /sunos/ { print "SUNOS"; exit}
04:54<@planetmaker> /solaris/ { print "SUNOS"; exit}
04:57<ArdaXi>yes, but what does it do with the $os value?
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05:01<@planetmaker>what does your configure output look like and your config.cache?
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05:04<ArdaXi>so CFLAGS includes -DSUNOS
05:04<@planetmaker>yeah. So it *should* know that...
05:05<@peter1138>check the command line when it's compiling strgen
05:06<ArdaXi>g++ -Wall -Wno-multichar -Wsign-compare -Wundef -Wwrite-strings -Wpointer-arith -W -Wno-unused-parameter -Wredundant-decls -Wformat=2 -Wformat-security -Wno-unused-variable -Wno-unused-but-set-variable -Wno-unused-but-set-parameter -Winit-self -fno-strict-aliasing -Wcast-qual -fno-strict-overflow -Wnon-virtual-dtor -Wno-free-nonheap-object -rdynamic -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -O1 -DNDEBUG -I /root/openttd-1.4.2/objs/lang -std=gnu++0x -Wno-narrowing -DSTRGEN -c -o s
05:06<@planetmaker>the question is... does strgen compilation get same CFLAGS?
05:06<@planetmaker>seems it doesn't
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05:18<@planetmaker> <-- does that work, ArdaXi ?
05:19<ArdaXi>planetmaker: yup, that works fine
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05:28<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26850 trunk/config.lib (2014-09-19 09:28:23 UTC)
05:28<@DorpsGek>-Fix: [Makefile] Compilation of strgen requires also defining variable in for platforms like Solaris
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06:02<andythenorth>such 1800s
06:02<andythenorth>Pikka: when is pineapple trucks starting from?
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06:40<@peter1138>so is daylength patch in 1.4? :p
06:41<@peter1138>"Passengers production at Aberninghead Cross Oil Rig decreases 50%!"
06:46*Pikka returns
06:47<Pikka>andythenorth, (steem)trams from 1889, trucks from 1910, buses from 1919
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>there were already electric trams in 1889
06:54<Pikka>steam trams are fun, and can be used for hauling freight as well
06:54<Pikka>my first electric tram is 1905
07:01<andythenorth>what about the poor 1800s players?
07:01<andythenorth>and what about realisms?
07:02<andythenorth>it’s well known that we had a major industrial economy based on horses hailing bulk cargo hundreds of kilometres
07:02<andythenorth>realism is very important
07:04<Pikka>what if I push the steam tram back to 1875 and fill it with horses
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>i've said for years that there should be a generic horse vehicle set, that covers the 1800s only
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>which can then be combined with any modern vehicle set
07:13<@peter1138>Someone™ should make it!
07:14<@peter1138>When you go to 4x zoom, the horses show themselves to be Lego horses...
07:15<Pikka>horse vehicles were in commercial use well into the 20th century
07:15<Pikka>realism, doesn't it?
07:16<@peter1138>Don't forget, it was decreed that OpenTTD would never contain horses.
07:16<@peter1138>I'm concerned about this production of passengers. Should I send more females?
07:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: would the horse set cover road + rail?
07:19<@peter1138>horse-drawn canal boats?
07:19<andythenorth>Iron Horse will (shock) gain some horses, as will Road Hog
07:19<andythenorth>not because I care, but because Dan does
07:20<andythenorth>it will also get magleveppelins
07:20<andythenorth>an alternative would be to make a horsey set....
07:20<andythenorth>or settings in IH and RH for ‘horsies-only'
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>yes, make a real horse set in addition to the iron horse set
07:21<andythenorth>could be done
07:21<Pikka>add horses to FIRS, too
07:22<Pikka>for the production of romanian lasagna
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>as for FIRS: i already asked for this before, an "early economy" with way more but much smaller industries
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>which slowly fade out when larger industries are built
07:23*Pikka should industries :/
07:23<Pikka>right after ships and road vehicles and towns and
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>the early mines and farms would not have the ability to boost production with supplies
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>and have a much smaller base production
07:24<Pikka>sounds boring and "realistic"
07:25<Pikka>I think an option to have maximum / base production change over time would be good, though.
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>and the blacksmith or wind mill industries will have a maximum capacity, so additional cargo will not produce any secondary cargo (food, metal)
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>there will also not be any industry that produces supplies, because what's the point...
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07:38<andythenorth>industry replacement is not a thing
07:39<andythenorth>there is no sensible mechanism for closure
07:39<andythenorth>or at least not that I found, and I got bored
07:39<andythenorth>early economy would be possible, could tweak the clustering
07:39<andythenorth>but more likely, someone forks FIRS
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>it would be useful if you could issue news message like "Steel crisis: emerging of large steel mills bring local blacksmiths in financial troubles, expect some closures over the next years"
07:43<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: hehe. couldn't a game script do that?
07:44<andythenorth>for [reasons]
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: no, because you cannot tie a game script to a newgrf
07:44<andythenorth>GS is not allowed to know anything about GS
07:44<andythenorth>newgrf :D
07:44<andythenorth>but what Eddi describes is scenario-driven gameplay, like Railroad Tycoon
07:44<andythenorth>which requires GS
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: not sure it does...
07:44<andythenorth>so it was an interesting choice that GS must be agnostic
07:44<b_jonas>Could you just tie both the opening steel mills and the closing of blacksmiths to dates?
07:44<andythenorth>but that boat has flown
07:44<andythenorth>or hovered
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just make it every time a steel mill emerges, each blacksmith has an x% chance of closing in the next 5 years
07:45<andythenorth>that assumes steel mills emerge, amongst other things
07:45<andythenorth>industry generation is so unreliable already
07:46<andythenorth>we did try this
07:46<andythenorth>there were multiple approaches
07:46<andythenorth>T*rkhen had ottd running headless logging all the openings and closures
07:46<andythenorth>in the end fr*sch told me to stop wasting my life
07:47<andythenorth>it’s a fundamentally wrong approach to try and do it in newgrf, where each industry has no knowledge of game state
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, it should be done in game internals, which then exposes the right interfaces to newgrfs
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>like a "try to force at least one instance of this new industry" mode
07:47*andythenorth has no counter argument of any kind to that
07:48<andythenorth>certainly doing things like trying to count the number of industries of type x, factored by map size, then decide closures
07:48<andythenorth>is mad
07:48<andythenorth>within industry closure cb
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>there should probably be a 60+ variable for that
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>"number of industries of type <param>"
07:53<Pikka>there should be? there is...
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>i've never even looked at industry specs
07:54<Pikka>I had that going once with my TaI next generation specs, relative numbers of supply and demand industries affecting production and closure.
07:54<Pikka>terrible features
07:54<andythenorth>there are plenty of vars
07:54<andythenorth>and there are useful cbs
07:55<andythenorth>but there is a fundamental problem with delegating choices to individual industries whilst trying to enforce a specific game narrative
07:55<andythenorth>autonomous agents -> emergent complexity
07:55<Pikka>goot dimes
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, my point stands. if both GS and NewGRF are the wrong place, then game internals it must be
07:56<Pikka>Eddi: unless nowhere is the right place because it's just a bad idea, that's also a possibility. :)
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>which then creates the problem about how generic it must be, to not only to cater to the needs of FIRS
07:57<andythenorth>Pikka: I concluded it’s a bad idea
07:57<andythenorth>ottd is about building routes
07:57<andythenorth>and then fixing them
07:57<andythenorth>the narrative scenario-driven gameplay doesn’t fit
07:57<andythenorth>maybe Train Fewer will do it? o_O
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>as far as i understand it, train fever has not a lot of industry going on at all
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>like 3 raw materials that are all turned into "goods"
07:59<Pikka>that certainly doesn't happen in TTD
07:59<andythenorth>well maybe you can get a €3 copy of Railroad Tycoon 3?
07:59<andythenorth>Railroad Tycoon 3 had multiple, historically accurate scenarios
07:59<andythenorth>cargo distribution was fricking awesome in it
07:59<andythenorth>but it was mostly an industry sim
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>i tried RRT2 for about 10 minutes, and didn't get the point of things...
08:00<andythenorth>the routing challenge in RT3 was non-existent, magic signalling, magic passing loops
08:00<andythenorth>it was a top-level thing, where a route had capacity
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>they removed the one useful feature from RRT: dispatcher operation
08:00<andythenorth>was that the manul or auto mode?
08:00<andythenorth>manual *
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>the one where signals actually did something
08:01<andythenorth>originally it was built as a model railroad sim by Sid Meier
08:01<andythenorth>with everything manual
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>instead of trains meeting on a single track line just stopping
08:01<andythenorth>oh yeah, dispatcher mode was winner
08:01<andythenorth>RT3 ignored all of that
08:01<andythenorth>50% of RT3 was about playing the stock market
08:01<andythenorth>lots of short-selling, pump-and-dump etc
08:02<andythenorth>really fun
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>i don't like the stock market part at all
08:02<andythenorth>useful insights into economic crashes ;)
08:02<andythenorth>short-selling ftw
08:02<andythenorth>teaches you that as long as your moral goals are suficiently narrow, pump-and-dump is the ethical choice
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>the only part of stock market i got from RRT was "get 50% of your company so they won't buy you out"
08:02*andythenorth digresses
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>which was sort of a pointless game mechanics
08:30<jA_cOp>Has anyone got a recommendation for an AI that provides some flavour to an otherwise singleplayer game, without being massively competitive? I've yet to play the game with multiple companies so I'd like to get a feel for how companies interact
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>i generally play without competitors
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10:33<Eddi|zuHause>uhm... weird? <-- they sell Sim City (5) for 13€ and addon for 14€, but bundle both together costs 28€?
10:34<@planetmaker>buy two, pay three. Makes sense to me
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>did anyone even play this?
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>i heard cities are way too small compared to SC4
10:36<@planetmaker>I tested it some time ago. Quite ok from the brief time I spend on it
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11:54<Pikka>these hoggish buses are taking 36 ticks to do a full unload + load :D
11:55<@peter1138>is that good or bad?
11:55<andythenorth>big ships must be given an advantage
11:55<andythenorth>unrelated :P
11:56<Pikka>well, it makes them rather less effective at short distance passenger shifting than their high capacity would suggest ;)
11:56<andythenorth>Pikka: loading speed 5
11:56<andythenorth>I should fix them?
11:56<@peter1138>well, that's about a second, right?
11:57<Pikka>36 loading ticks, not game ticks
11:57<Pikka>90 passengers out, 90 passengers in, 5 passengers at a time
11:57<andythenorth>small staircase
11:57<andythenorth>sounds realistic
11:57<Pikka>I'd be inclined to increase it, andy. but it's your set. ;)
12:03<Pikka>well, an IH metro loads 80 per tick... that's not default ;)
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12:22<andythenorth>big doors
12:22<andythenorth>metro is dibbled to give it a big advantage
12:23<Pikka>but then you have RH trams, which are surely similar, which are loading at 10 per tick ;)
12:25<andythenorth>I think we can file that as wrong
12:25<andythenorth>I haven’t play tested RH much
12:25<andythenorth>if you want to annotate the ticket…
12:25<andythenorth>it would be welcome
12:26<Pikka>yebbut that means signing in and stuff :/
12:27<andythenorth>put them here
12:27<andythenorth>I will laboriously copy and paste
12:28<andythenorth>or make a giant cost and stats table in the forums?
12:28<andythenorth>with formulas and stuff?
12:34<@Alberth>having inconsistent costs is much more fun! :)
12:34<andythenorth>per game
12:34<andythenorth>so you have to change tactics
12:35<@Alberth>not that I will notice it much, I look at stats every game anyway :)
12:36<@Alberth>stuff like "bigger ships make bigger profits" doesn't mean much in a game like openttd, where money is irrelevant :)
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12:37<@Alberth>on the other hand, you may want to fix it to keep the reality persons off your back
12:37<andythenorth>usually the requirement is to dibble down smaller vehicles so they are viable
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12:38<@Alberth>with the 1800s post I wondered whether it would be feasible to generate industries closer to each other, but with your "don't close industries" it would fail for the 1900s and 2ks then
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12:39<andythenorth>and closing industries is a fricking nightmare
12:39<@Alberth>I don't have that experience, but fair enough
12:40<andythenorth>providing rules for mass closure
12:40<andythenorth>I am now closing your sawmill because it’s too close to a wood
12:40<andythenorth>and it’s 1900
12:40<andythenorth>and faster trains are available
12:40<andythenorth>so it must be closed
12:40<andythenorth>and you must build a new one
12:41<@Alberth>at some point the horses get changed for trucks and trains, that would be a good moment
12:42<@Alberth>open a new one just 10 tiles further, wait for the player to extend, repeat :p
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>anyone got chicken farms in banished to work? they always die out on me...
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12:47<andythenorth>maybe allow industries to read the vehicles?
12:47<andythenorth>quak also
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12:54<Pikka>brm brm
12:55<frosch123>will it load containers?
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>missing a few directions?
12:55<frosch123>or livestock?
12:55<Pikka>it's just showing off, eddi :P
12:55<Pikka>ooh, cows on a hovercraft...
12:56<andythenorth>awesome zellepin
12:56<andythenorth>I do like renderised
12:57<@peter1138>anyone made a set that takes advantage of 4x zoom to have accurate-length carriages? :p
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13:12<Eddi|zuHause>CETS doesn't do 4x zoom
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13:15<DanMacK>Hey all
13:18<Pikka>hello Dan
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13:28<Pikka><frosch123> will it load containers? ->
13:39<frosch123>just be careful to not end up between them
13:39<b_jonas>Pikka: nice
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13:40<b_jonas>can we have rafts in the river pulled by horses on the coast yet?
13:40<Pikka>mo horses, mo problems.
13:41*Pikka still thinks that kind of industrial canal would be best coded as a roadtype, if we ever get roadtypes. :)
13:41<b_jonas>hmm... roadtype might work, and then crossings would get small bridges where the horses can cross
13:42<b_jonas>it probably can't be done as just a road type
13:42<b_jonas>single square is just too narrow for it
13:43<Pikka>horse-drawn narrowboats are very narrow, that's why they're called narrowboats
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13:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26851 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-09-19 17:47:00 UTC)
13:47<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:47<Eddi|zuHause> <b_jonas> can we have rafts in the river pulled by horses on the coast yet? <-- only when you can live with them walking through water occasionally
13:47<@DorpsGek>belarusian - 33 changes by KorneySan
13:47<@DorpsGek>brazilian_portuguese - 100 changes by Tucalipe
13:47<@DorpsGek>russian - 2 changes by KorneySan
13:47<@DorpsGek>welsh - 4 changes by kazzie
13:48<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Some canals had sections with no towpath where the horse walked down the middle of the canal
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>i meant more like ocean :)
13:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26852 trunk/src/lang/belarusian.txt (2014-09-19 17:53:50 UTC)
13:53<@DorpsGek>-Fix: WT3 validation error
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13:55<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Set max speed to 0 when on ocean?
13:56<FLHerne>Then they'll just beave strangely and confuse the player, rather than being unprototypical
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: that sounds like a catastrophe waiting to happen
13:56<@Alberth>1, it can swim :p
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>like, all your ships get stuck on the ocean and you can't get them back
13:57<FLHerne>Does yapf even take differential speeds into account? I didn't see anything that tested that
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13:57<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Building canal ships on the ocean is Undefined Behaviour, and the player shouldn't do it :P
13:58<FLHerne>Clearly newgrfs should come with detailed reference docs and specs
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: it's not even that. it's already that the pathfinder doesn't prevent this
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>also, i'm pretty sure there's a minimum speed limit of 1
13:59<FLHerne>Well, that should serve to discourage misusing things
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14:30<andythenorth>shlex is my new favourite thing
14:30<andythenorth>wish I had noticed that in the python docs before
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14:53<@Alberth>a bit of a tokenizer, wasn't it?
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14:53<Supercheese> :O
14:54<Pikka>might be
14:54<andythenorth>Alberth: I always get fuddled by args for subprocess.POPEN :)
14:54<andythenorth>shlex will solve that
14:54<Wolf01>I could return with the new pc... nah, tomorrow
14:55<@Alberth>andythenorth: don't use a shell in popen :)
14:55<Wolf01>nah, now
14:55<@Alberth>bye Wolf01
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14:56<andythenorth>what will andythenorth do next
14:56<@Alberth>play a game?
14:56<Supercheese>but the only winning move is not to play...
14:56<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> Alberth: I always get fuddled by args for subprocess.POPEN :) <-- that screams like a code injection waiting to happen
14:57<@Alberth>Supercheese: but we're not in it to win :)
14:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yes
14:57<Supercheese>andy seems very winning-oriented :P
14:57<Supercheese>what with the goalscripts
14:57<andythenorth>I am cursed by the need to win
14:58<andythenorth>it would be a much quieter life otherwise
14:58<andythenorth>also sausages
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14:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I _think_ it’s ok as long as the first arg is correct, but yeah, vulnerability city
15:00<andythenorth>conveniently most of the args come from a web form, so…nothing dangerous about that
15:00<b_jonas>wait, how did I suddenly get so much money
15:00<b_jonas>let me check the incomes
15:02<@peter1138>how did i miss newstats 0.6?
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15:02<b_jonas>wow, these passenger ferries earn more money than I expected
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15:02<andythenorth>newgrfs are BAD FEATUREs
15:02<b_jonas>but of course I got the money from trains
15:02<b_jonas>no wait
15:02<b_jonas>it's from AIRPLANES!
15:02<b_jonas>that explains it
15:03<Supercheese>yes, it does
15:03<Supercheese>Zeppelins OP, nerf plz
15:03<b_jonas>gotta start more
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15:35<LordAro>half surprised you can't see the edge of the world
15:35<LordAro>(in the title game)
15:37<frosch123>the sprite font for the openttd title does not scale :p
15:38<@Rubidium>is scales perfectly
15:38<SpComb>openttd might need some kind of scaleable UI for DPI compensation there as well :)
15:38<@Rubidium>pixels get smaller, letters get smaller
15:39<LordAro>that's what bigGUI is for :)
15:39<@Rubidium>oh... yay... a fiddly DPI setting
15:39<andythenorth>vector UI? o_O
15:39<@Rubidium>because not everyone likes everything scaled HUGE because he has high DPI
15:39<SpComb>well, assuming the underlying OS provides some concept of DPI
15:40<V453000>vector sprites
15:40<@Rubidium>he wants a lot on a relatively small physical screen...
15:40<@Rubidium>come on... why would I want my screen to only contain 25 lines and 80 columns?
15:41<frosch123>yeah, i also wonder how that was usable in the past
15:41<@Rubidium>but maybe we should just return to the good old days where a screen was 640x480 and scale everything so it is exactly that big
15:41<LordAro>someone(tm) should finish bigGUI and make it work properly
15:50<@peter1138>Is that image scaled down? Cos my text isn't that small...
15:50<@peter1138>Ah yeah it is
15:51<@peter1138>i had more patches for scalable ui stuff
15:52<andythenorth>Rubidium: I tried playing at 640x480 for a bit
15:52<andythenorth>easier on the eyes
15:52<@peter1138>i used to play at 800x600, when i used a crt
15:52<@peter1138>now, going full screen just crashes
15:52<andythenorth>oh yeah
15:52<andythenorth>me too
15:53*andythenorth just tested
15:53<@Rubidium>peter1138: and you have a patch for that crash too, right?
15:53<andythenorth>specifically changing resolution crashs full screen
15:53<andythenorth>oh and not full screen too
15:53<andythenorth>another OS X Bug :)
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15:57<@peter1138>Rubidium, no, *everything* crashes
15:57<@peter1138>well, actually only the program changing to fullscreen
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15:57<@peter1138>but any program does it, and not just sdl stuff
15:57<@peter1138>i blame nvidia
15:58<@Rubidium>what, you still don't have a patch for that binary blob?
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16:00<Eddi|zuHause>a binary binary large object?
16:03<@Rubidium>'binary large object' is from the database world
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16:06<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26853 /trunk (29 files in 12 dirs) (2014-09-19 20:06:51 UTC)
16:06<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup [Squirrel]: remove some stuff that we never did and especially never should use
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i have "left 4 dead 2" in my steam account and never even started it...
16:07<@peter1138>hmm, seems to sort of work if i set the resolution in the config file to a valid resolution before hand
16:07<@peter1138>but then switching back to window breaks
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: so it's the resolution detection that crashes?
16:08<@peter1138>it detected the valid resolutions
16:09<@peter1138>if the resolution is invalid (i.e. it's a window resolution) what resolution does it use?
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>no, i meant it used the resolution you provided it with flawlessly, but when the resolution fails and it needs to get the available ones from the OS, that breaks
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>(this is all guessed)
16:12<@peter1138>i know what you meant, and i answered: it detected the valid resolutions
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>then i don't know...
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16:15<Eddi|zuHause>i don't use fullscreen, and especially not with resolution changes
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>they tend to screw everything up
16:15<@peter1138>yeah some games automatically switch :(
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>plus, it looks horrible
16:15<@peter1138>anyway, seems to indeed be a problem with XF86VidModeSwitchToMode and twinview
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>with interpolated pixels and wrong aspect ratio and stuff
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16:16<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have twinview
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16:23<b_jonas>whoa, I almost crashed two trains
16:29<@peter1138>hard to crash one
16:29<@peter1138>but not impossible
16:29<Pikka>is it not?
16:32<Pikka>ufos don't crash trains, only road vehicles.
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16:33<frosch123>LordAro: think more along wetrails :p
16:33<LordAro>ah yes
16:33<LordAro>not so much "crashing" as "deleting" though, iirc?
16:34<frosch123>it explodes and says "crashed"
16:34<frosch123>ships are the only solid unbreakable things in ottd :)
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16:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm, this "Civilization: Beyond Earth" sounds very similar to alpha centauri
16:37<b_jonas>I wonder if it would make sense to build a double-line here that transports both passengers and goods
16:37<frosch123>hmm, was the latter every a thing?
16:37<b_jonas>and separate it from the oil line
16:37<frosch123>i remember myths about a civ sequel being called "alpha centauri", but i don't think i have ever seen it
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16:39<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: iirc, it's sort of supposed to be Alpha Centauri 2
16:39<LordAro>but riding on the Civ brand
16:40<frosch123>oh, there was a alpha centauri in 1999
16:40<frosch123>i somewhat thought it would be somewhere between civ 1 and 2 :p
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it was more like between civ 2 and 3
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16:42<Eddi|zuHause>and there was even an addon, which i never had
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>and then somebody made a mod for civ4 called "planetfall", which used the flavour text audio from alpha centauri
16:46<b_jonas>I think Alpha Centauri exists, at least I heared some people play with it
16:46<b_jonas>and yes, a sequel to Civ
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16:50<@peter1138>yeah, xf86vidmodeswitchtomode just blows up
16:52<@peter1138>Pikka, if you flood them
16:53<@peter1138>They blew up, because water causes explosions, yes.
16:53<Pikka>the trains are made of sodium
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>have you seen the beginning of this season of "hell on wheels"?
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>(season 4, i think)
16:55<@peter1138>Ok, so we need a video driver that will render to an XVideo surface.
16:55<@peter1138>Which can then use the GPU to scale that surface to fullscreen :p
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>does that require compositing?
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17:03<Eddi|zuHause>i should probably stop clicking through game shops, or i'll spend more on games than in my entire life :p
17:05<@peter1138>heh, talk like a pirate day bundle
17:05<@peter1138>got that, though i suppose that's the hires remake
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>my "interested" list is now at 97€, which is probably a bit much
17:16<@peter1138>hmm, i wonder if that just works... probably not :)
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17:19<@peter1138>oh, my version of monkey island is the windows one
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17:21<+glx>I have -50% for payday2 and -50% for hotline miami if someone wants
17:24<@peter1138>Holy shit it does wortk.
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18:03<@peter1138> SEF_SETTING_KIND does not exist :S
18:13<@peter1138>how dare people change things that affect my patches ;p
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>that patch is 10 years old? :p
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>so... i now preordered this civ game, which is probably a mistake. and i bought train fever, which is probably also a mistake. and the last civ5 addon, which, if it was a mistake, is not an expensive one
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>altogether for 65€
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>there we go, Civ5 doesn't even start anymore in wine...
18:33<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: try the native version :p
18:33<@peter1138>er, yeah,
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: i didn't try native steam for ages...
18:48<LordAro>well, that's your loss :p
18:48<LordAro>it works fine
18:48<LordAro>always has
18:49<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, it works quite well
18:49<@planetmaker>and if you shelled-out 65€ for Civ5, that's indeed a mistake
18:50<@peter1138>hmm, is there a SetMinimalSize for just one dimension?
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>no, 37€ for the beyond earth game (original price 50€), 8€ for the civ5 addon, and 20€ for train fever
18:52<@planetmaker>that's probably better :)
18:52*LordAro got Civ5 Complete for £12 in the summer :3
18:52<@planetmaker>yeah, round about that
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, i got Civ5 as birthday present on release
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18:53<Eddi|zuHause>and bought the previous addon for like 15€
18:55<@peter1138>native civ5 works nicely
18:56<@planetmaker>yup, quite
18:57<@peter1138>Even on Wheezy, once you've found a version of the Steam package that works.
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>mäh, steam guard...
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably greylisted and by the time i get the mail the code is expired...
19:00<@peter1138>This SetMinimalSize() malarkey doesn't really play nice with a scalable ui :(
19:06<Wolf01>'night all
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19:15<Eddi|zuHause>um... this mail took 15 minutes...
19:19<@peter1138>Quick for greylisting.
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>usually 5 minutes
19:23<@peter1138>god damn it, changed one file and everything recompiles :p
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>now i remember what was annoying about native steam... it doesn't minimize to tray...
19:33<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: oh yeah, just add "STEAM_FRAME_FORCE_CLOSE=1" to the start up (icon, etc)
19:34<FUZxxl>Is there a way to let OpenTTD allow me to build stations with more than six platforms?
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes, use drag&drop
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>or place two stations next to each other
19:36<FUZxxl>Eddi|zuHause: I always get a message "station too large"
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>FUZxxl: then change the station spread in advanced settings
19:36<FUZxxl>The maximum I can build is a station with 6 platforms à 7 tiles
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>(although the standard setting is 12)
19:37<FUZxxl>Eddi|zuHause: Should I make it smaller or larger?
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>this is the maximum size a station can have, including attached bus stops, airports etc.
19:42<@planetmaker>set it to 64
19:44<@planetmaker>or whatever lower value you think is a good maximum size
19:49<@peter1138>i love to watch things on tv
19:49<@peter1138>bong bong bong
19:49<@peter1138>satellite of love
19:50<FUZxxl> <- this is a good one
19:51<@peter1138>won't you be my wagonwheel?
19:58<@peter1138>bash: svn: command not found
20:00<SpComb>svn: bash: command not found
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20:27<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26854 trunk/src/widget.cpp (2014-09-20 00:27:14 UTC)
20:27<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Don't override computed minimal size with static minimal size, instead only increase it.
20:27<SpComb>peter1138 go to sleep
20:27<@peter1138>+widget :S
20:27<@peter1138>oh well
20:27<@peter1138>SpComb, why
20:28<@peter1138>still got 30 minutes of this album to go
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21:47<Eddi|zuHause>oh... and of course i run into a signalling issue immediately :p
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 20 00:00:18 2014