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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-21

---Logopened Sun Sep 21 00:00:19 2014
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01:19<Supercheese>Hmm, how to translate "block signals"...
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02:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26866 /trunk/src (5 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-21 06:35:34 UTC)
02:35<@DorpsGek>-Change: make aircraft ascend/descend when they are too close to the ground or too far away (based on patch by ic111)
02:41<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26867 trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp (2014-09-21 06:41:11 UTC)
02:41<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26866): hopefully fix MSVC compile error
02:49<andythenorth>unrealistic speeds? o_O
02:49*andythenorth thinks yes
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03:07*andythenorth has idea
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03:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26868 /trunk/src (tile_map.cpp tile_map.h) (2014-09-21 07:48:18 UTC)
03:48<@DorpsGek>-Add: methods for getting a (theoretical) slope and tile height of tiles outside of the map array (ic111)
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03:57<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26869 /trunk (9 files in 5 dirs) (2014-09-21 07:57:45 UTC)
03:57<@DorpsGek>-Add: support for an all black palette to prevent the need of having a black tile of all different slopes (ic111)
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04:19<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26870 /trunk/src (viewport.cpp void_cmd.cpp) (2014-09-21 08:19:32 UTC)
04:19<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r15190): since freeform edges the 'tile height' at southern edge * 8 pixels just 'south' of the edge tile would not be drawn and would as a result not be refreshed causing artefacts to remain there. This adds a virtual slope to level 0 so it can be redrawn appropriately. Loosely based on patch by ic111
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04:50<@Alberth>hi ho
05:11<blargTest>Anyone got a good recommendation for TTD-tutorial?
05:11<@Alberth>the wiki?
05:12<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26871 trunk/src/highscore_gui.cpp (2014-09-21 09:12:04 UTC)
05:12<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Centre and draw arbitrary size highscore screen. Highscore text continues to be drawn with 640x480 dimensions.
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05:40<frosch123>peter1138: i guess it is now easier to add a specific recolour sprite just for the newspaper X
05:43<@peter1138>silly costs, £16k to build a 3 tile bridge on corner water tiles, or £4k for a 7 tile monstrousity 1 level higher...
05:55<@peter1138>frosch123, easier how?
05:55<frosch123>we now have a separate action 5 for ottd-insprite recolour sprites
05:56<@peter1138>well the remap is 2 bytes, heh
05:56<@peter1138>like the magic for fonts
05:57<frosch123>anyway, every baseset has to add that recolour sprite, so it would be easier to add more now, all at one
05:58<frosch123>unless we figure out how to make eddi code the always-load openttd.grf thingie :p
05:59<frosch123>but likely the file would need splitting into essential and bonus stuff
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06:11<keoz>Looks we're going to have more height level in trunk or I'm wrong ?
06:13<frosch123>we are switching to free form building like train fever
06:13<Wolf01>I won't believe that also if you tell me in klingon
06:14<@Rubidium>at least in OTTD you can build two bridges next to eachother over a diagonal river
06:16<@Rubidium>furthermore, there are no problems with upgrading roads in OTTD
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06:20<frosch123>what diagonal rivers?
06:20<frosch123>but ok, you do not run into the issue of not being able to build the bridge
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06:21<frosch123>ah, sorry, missed your second line
06:21<frosch123>i am being out-trolled
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06:32<V453000>cargo icons are always 10x10 or is there something or any case that differs?
06:33<@planetmaker>should be 10x10
06:34<@planetmaker>V453000, and indeed like suggested somewhere in tt-f you should make sure your document your cargo usage in yeti in the wiki's cargo page like ECS and FIRS do
06:35<V453000>how do I do that?
06:35<@planetmaker>by editing the wiki :P
06:35<V453000>oh ttf login
06:36<@peter1138>20x20 cargo icons are kinda massive
06:36<@planetmaker>dunno whether it needs a separate row like ECS+FIRS. But probably easiest approach
06:36<V453000>need 3rd column? :D
06:37*peter1138 ponders resurrecting the rgb company colours patch
06:37<b_jonas>frosch123: because of foundations? yeah
06:37<@planetmaker>you want to use the cargo classes as in that table. Or define a new label for those where you don't. Usually
06:39<V453000>so for example I got GRAI Grain and I give it CC_BULK and CC_COVERED
06:39<@planetmaker>in your grf, yes
06:39<V453000>hm firs doesnt have GRAI? :d
06:39<V453000>ah yeah from original
06:40<@planetmaker>yeah, use original, if possible, use new if existing, define completely new if none of above :)
06:40<V453000>I do have originals mostly
06:40<@planetmaker>uranium probably is the latter category. And possibly dudes
06:42<@planetmaker>dudes is like tourists. Just much more dumb
06:43<@planetmaker>though... if they take a camera to work...
06:46<V453000>ok, any idea how to add a YETI column other than manually writing one extra | to each? :D
06:46<@planetmaker>nope. That's what it boils down to
06:46<b_jonas>you're transporting Yetis?
06:47<V453000>alright, dumb repetitive tasks I am good at :P
06:47<V453000>yes b_jonas
06:51<@planetmaker>b_jonas, get yeti from online content. Make sure you got enough download speed :P
06:53<V453000>duh just 115 MB or something like that :)
06:55<Eddi|zuHause><V453000> alright, dumb repetitive tasks I am good at :P <-- make a script?
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>probably a regexp suffices
06:56<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that's what he is not good at :p
06:56<V453000>EXACTLY :D
06:57<frosch123>so, let's apply some ulimit, and see when nml runs out of memory
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>or something like that
06:58<frosch123>V453000: just think of scripts as wtf-smileys
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>"for some it's a regexp, for others it's the longest smilie of the world" :p
06:58<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: making that would take me ages, I did what I needed to and seems to work somewhat :P
07:00<frosch123>why does ulimit not have a proper --help message?
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>it took like 10 seconds to write that. and half of that is handling the AltGr key
07:01<@peter1138>hmm, i suppose i should do michi_cc's patch
07:01<@peter1138>cos recompiling everything after changing ZOOM_LVL_GUI is a pain
07:03<V453000>so what if my GRAI offers cc_bulk AND cc_covered? should I fill that somehow into the page?
07:03<V453000>or should I just leave bulk there
07:03<V453000>perhaps put in comments on the right?
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>leave bulk there, and add the info about covered in the extra notes
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>like FRUT
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07:12<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26872 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-21 11:12:42 UTC)
07:12<@DorpsGek>-Change: give the disaster vehicles the same treatment as aircraft in r26866; make the ascend and descend if needed to cross high mountains (based on patch by ic111)
07:13<V453000>hm, where do I find the IDs of classes?
07:13<V453000>0010 Bulk like e.g. what is hazardous
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07:14<argoneus>I am trying to do passengers recently
07:14<argoneus>and setting up train/aircraft networks
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>click on the "cargo classes" link on the top of the table
07:14<V453000>oh :D
07:14<argoneus>but my buses never haul enough passengers
07:14<argoneus>I'm also using assymetric cargodist
07:14<argoneus>and buses are just not enough
07:14<argoneus>I have 1500 passengers waiting to be carried into a city with 6000 people
07:14<argoneus>even though I have 40 buses in the city
07:15<argoneus>anything I can do?
07:15<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26873 /trunk/src (6 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-21 11:14:58 UTC)
07:15<@planetmaker>use more busses. Use trains. Use trams...
07:15<@DorpsGek>-Change: split type_height into a type and height array (ic111)
07:15<argoneus>I use trams/busses
07:15<argoneus>but there's never enough
07:15<argoneus>and the busses eventually just go all together in one line
07:15<argoneus>even if I timetable them, the spreading fucks up eventually
07:15<keoz>argoneus: German Vehicle Set
07:16<keoz>high capacity busses/trams: they are enough to handle this
07:16<argoneus>so with the vanilla road vehicles
07:16<argoneus>I'm better off not using trams/busses?
07:16<b_jonas>use trains
07:16<argoneus>how do I use trains for inter-city
07:17<keoz>I don't say you are off, I'm saying that German vehicles help a lot
07:17<argoneus>what am I supposed to do here? :<
07:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26874 trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp (2014-09-21 11:17:47 UTC)
07:17<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26872): hopefully fix MSVC compile error
07:18<keoz>Timetable your bus networks
07:18<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26875 /trunk/src (saveload/afterload.cpp tile_map.h) (2014-09-21 11:18:10 UTC)
07:18<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: move TropicZone information from m6 to type
07:18<keoz>that also helps
07:18<@planetmaker>argoneus, just use more busses :) Expand your bus stops so that more than two or four can load at the same time
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>after you timetabled, increase the time at at least one station so it can make up for delays
07:19<argoneus>how do you guys timetable an established network?
07:19<argoneus>without using autofill
07:19<argoneus>if one of my cities has train, airport and bus
07:19<keoz>Send all vehicles in depot, Start only one vehicle, use autofill only to measure, take a screenshot of the autofilled timetable; reload the game saved fill the table
07:19<argoneus>is it even possible to balance everything?
07:20<argoneus>I started getting red lines everywhere
07:20<argoneus>no matter how many busses i added
07:20<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26876 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-21 11:20:11 UTC)
07:20<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: move 'has bride above' data from m6 to type
07:20<argoneus>also, one more thing
07:20<argoneus>do you guys use more bus networks in one city
07:20<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26877 /trunk/docs (landscape.html landscape_grid.html) (2014-09-21 11:20:29 UTC)
07:20<argoneus>or just one loop?
07:20<@DorpsGek>-Update: documentation about the map array
07:20<keoz>Well, if the network is badly designed, you can add as many busses you want, they will just block each other and the throughput is the same
07:22<argoneus>I was looking for people who've done this thing
07:22<argoneus>but I couldn't find any pictures of "good" networks
07:22<argoneus>all people ever post is train station designs
07:23<argoneus>which is usually easy
07:23<argoneus>all you need to do is make sure trains incoming don't block trains outgoing and vice versa
07:23<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26878 /trunk/src (17 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-21 11:23:33 UTC)
07:23<argoneus>and then you just increase the capacity
07:23<@DorpsGek>-Change: move m6 to TileExtended to keep Tile 8 bytes and thus better alignable
07:24<argoneus>but for buses
07:24<argoneus>with random road networks
07:24<argoneus>it's hard to make a decent system
07:24<argoneus>does anyone of you maybe have a screenshot of a well-established city?
07:24<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26879 /trunk/src (14 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-21 11:24:51 UTC)
07:24<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: remove most MayHaveBridgeAbove calls since the data is now always accessible
07:25<b_jonas>dunno, look at savefiles on openttdcoop maybe, but I don't think they use buses often
07:25<argoneus>is there a reason for that?
07:26<b_jonas>trains have higher transport flux generally
07:26<argoneus>but when you transport passengers
07:26<argoneus>you need to have busses too, no?
07:26<argoneus>you can't really build a train station in the middle of a city
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07:27<argoneus>OH, I wanted to ask
07:27<b_jonas>sure you can
07:27<argoneus>if I put a bus station in a city
07:27<b_jonas>build it early
07:27<b_jonas>and have the town grow around it
07:27<argoneus>and control click the same station a little further away
07:27<argoneus>will the one station get passengers from both areas?
07:27<keoz>those are screenshots from a game where I finally achieved to have a quite fluid pax trafic
07:27<argoneus>or just around the nametag
07:27<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26880 /trunk/src (5 files in 3 dirs) (2014-09-21 11:27:34 UTC)
07:27<@DorpsGek>-Add: stub settings for limiting bridge and map height
07:27<b_jonas>or build an airport early, transport passengers with airplanes, and convert the airport to trains later when you have strong trains
07:28<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26881 trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp (2014-09-21 11:28:29 UTC)
07:28<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: bump the savegame version
07:28<argoneus>keoz: how did you manage to do that o.o
07:28<argoneus>in my game most of those bus staitons would have 4000 passengers
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>station gets from around each tile
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>(roughly. the exact algorithm is a bit weird)
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07:31<argoneus>keoz: in that picture
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07:31<argoneus>how much can one tram carry?
07:31<keoz>argoneus: using German Vehicle Set (trams especially) + Having a network organized as a grid (2) + Finely timetabling the trams (3) + Using a patch I build for allowing trams to wait in depot (4)
07:32<V453000>I think I am done :)
07:33<@Alberth>argoneus: no worries, lots of play time left before you mastered openttd :)
07:33<argoneus>I've played openttd for longer than I'd like to admit ;_;
07:33<argoneus>I always used to think
07:33<argoneus>that airplanes were cheap and noobish
07:33<argoneus>but they actually take time to set up
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>airplanes are terrible
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>can't properly timetable them and they have low capacity
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07:37<@planetmaker>use ships :)
07:38<b_jonas>in this game I actually got lots of income from airplanes and ships, but that's only because I set up my trains wrong
07:38<b_jonas>I'm trying to rectify that now
07:40<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26882 /trunk/src (5 files in 3 dirs) (2014-09-21 11:40:11 UTC)
07:40<@DorpsGek>-Feature: allow limiting the height of bridges (ic111)
07:41<Wolf01>wasn't that already in trunk (hardcoded)?
07:41<@Rubidium>yes... no more than 16 levels high was trunk ;)
07:42<Wolf01>ah so unlimited
07:43<Wolf01>I remember something like "this bridge could have only 1 leve, this one up to 4 levels", but it might have been a patch-pack
07:43<@Rubidium>oh, yeah...
07:43<frosch123>Wolf01: there was a minimum height over objects
07:43<@peter1138>Original bridges were only 1 level at all, IIRC.
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>newgrfs can set bridge length, but not height, i think
07:44<Wolf01>wait, it's possible to build bridges over objects?
07:44<@Rubidium>the concrete bridge may only be 2 high ;)
07:44<@peter1138>"has bride above" heh
07:44<@Rubidium>did I typo?
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>freudian slip :p
07:45<@peter1138>26876 :)
07:51<argoneus>I just looked at some of the games
07:51<argoneus>why do people opt for lots of small stations with short trains in cities
07:51<argoneus>instead of huge stations with large trains
07:51<Wolf01>quick load, less time to exit the station, I bet
07:53<@Alberth>less area coverage, allowing more stations perhaps
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>acceleration, train density/frequence, space usage, ...
07:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26883 trunk/src/landscape.cpp (2014-09-21 11:53:06 UTC)
07:53<@DorpsGek>-Change: make maximum desert height scale with the maximum configured height
07:54<frosch123>short trains have better acceleration, plus it's better for the network if all trains have the same length, and shorter trains allow easier adjusting to amounts, without long waiting for loads
07:54<argoneus>the network in this game is basically
07:54<argoneus>like 4 huge hubs with long trains around the map
07:54<argoneus>and small trains in all cities feeding the huge hubs
07:54<argoneus>seems like a good strategy?
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't play games this way...
07:55<frosch123>also huge stations are boring
07:55<argoneus>why not?
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07:55<frosch123>many small ones with feeder is a lot more fun to build imho
07:55<frosch123>station walking is a BAD FEATURE :)
07:56<argoneus>station walking?
07:56<@planetmaker>:D There we have again that meme :)
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB)
07:56<Wolf01>mmh, I just thought about a new "disaster": less train capacity based on local authority
07:56<argoneus>oh wow
07:57<argoneus>I thought my stations were robust
07:57<argoneus>what .. the fuck
07:58<frosch123>argoneus: generally avoid everything labeled "V" :)
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>man, i just tried to use WASD to scroll the screenshot :p
07:58<@planetmaker>lol, frosch123 :)
07:58<argoneus>what is V?
07:58<frosch123>who, not what
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>i've asked myself that for years :p
07:58<frosch123>though maybe "what" also works :)
07:58<@planetmaker>:) the author of the trackset (trainset) you use
07:59<frosch123>and the constructor of that station in that game
07:59<argoneus>is V some train genius?
07:59<@peter1138>More a madman
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>i did think "that screenshot has V written all over it", and then it actually did :p
08:00<@planetmaker>oh, yeah, also V's the creator of that station...
08:00<Wolf01>what could I eat, omelette or a banana?
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>banana ommelette?
08:00<@Rubidium> ?
08:01<@planetmaker>omlette with banana actually can be quite delicious
08:01<Wolf01>I was thinking more an omelette with wurstel and cheese
08:01<@planetmaker>and banana?
08:01<argoneus>so um
08:02<argoneus>is it a valid tactic not to use buses
08:02<Wolf01>banana with nutella
08:02<argoneus>but have one large station outside the city
08:02<argoneus>and small stations inside the city
08:02<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26884 /trunk/src (newgrf.cpp settings_type.h) (2014-09-21 12:02:03 UTC)
08:02<@DorpsGek>-Change: scale the NewGRF's snow line level according to the configured maximum map height
08:02<argoneus>and feed the large one?
08:02<@planetmaker>argoneus, any tactic is valid. The only goal is you having fun :)
08:02<argoneus>a valid tactic to make profit
08:02<@planetmaker>nearly every tactic makes profit :P
08:02<frosch123>you should put "fun" over "profit"
08:02<keoz>making profit is easy
08:03<frosch123>in almost all situations in life
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>it's nearly impossible to not make profit in this game...
08:03<argoneus>is it a valid tactic
08:03<keoz>not a real challenge
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>unless you start in 1800 with no vehicle progress and inflation enabled...
08:03<argoneus>if I want to make sure all people will be delivered
08:03<argoneus>in time
08:03<@Alberth>argoneus: you and only you decide what valid is and what not
08:03<argoneus>god damn it :D
08:03<frosch123>argoneus: personally i prefer trams :p
08:04<argoneus>I don't know what newgrfs to get
08:04<argoneus>there's a thousand of them
08:04<frosch123>trams feeding to trains, trains feeding to ships
08:04<argoneus>and they may conflict with eachother
08:04<frosch123>ignore busses and aircraft
08:04<argoneus>I wish there was an openttd newgrf starter pack or something
08:04<argoneus>with things that people generally like
08:04<keoz>that would make no sense
08:04<frosch123>there is nothing which people generally like
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>just get one of each type
08:04<keoz>everybody uses different GRF's
08:04<@Alberth>I don't think you could point out a newgrf that everybody likes
08:04<keoz>try them over time
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>if you prefer a country, pick all that have this country in the name
08:05<@Alberth>and not too many at the same time
08:05<keoz>you don't need to fill your game with plenty of GRF's at once
08:05<argoneus>but there can be some train set I like
08:05<argoneus>and then it doesn't work with FIRS
08:05<argoneus>and then something else
08:05<keoz>browse them, try them, add them progressively
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>that's bad luck, but difficult to avoid
08:05<@planetmaker>every decent trainset works with firs
08:06<keoz>well, with major trainsets such as UKRS or NARS, you're sure it will work with firs
08:06<@Alberth>such info would in fact be interesting to add while selecting newgrfs, imho
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>some people may be bad coders, but we can't prevent them from publishing their work. and some things are just too old and not maintained
08:06<argoneus>I don't even know what's a major trainset
08:06<frosch123>argoneus: newgrfs are like hearthstone decks. you can find a miracle rogue deck, but you may not have all cards for it, and even if it is considered the best, you may consider it boring to play :p
08:06<argoneus>I don't recognize any of the names
08:07<frosch123>argoneus: let's say, you first need to figure out what type of player you are
08:07<argoneus>I just want to add believable variety between vehicles, as in, no regular train in one direction, and a flashy clown car in the other
08:07<frosch123>do you want to play, or do you want to draw scenery
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>then don't use NUTS :p
08:07<@planetmaker> <-- this is what I used in my last game, argoneus
08:07<argoneus>I want to have lots of variety between vehicles
08:07<frosch123>do you want to make stuff effective, or do you want to make stuff look in a specific way
08:07<frosch123>do you want to power-play, or do you want to role-play...
08:07<argoneus>but no overpowered things
08:08<argoneus>I'm fine with the vanilla game
08:08<argoneus>I just want bigger cars and more trains
08:08<keoz>well, for the cars, the classical GRF is eGRVTS
08:09<@planetmaker>I suggest heqs. It has excellent feeder trams :)
08:09<keoz>a nice one to add is GRV:
08:09<argoneus>oh, that looks exactly like the kind of thing I want
08:09<frosch123>argoneus: a standard combination for the playing-type of player would be: NUTS, OGFX+RV, HEQS, FISH2, AV9 for vehicles
08:09<keoz>planetmaker: does it ? I didn't explored it enough. Also manages passengers ?
08:09<argoneus>so egrvts + grv?
08:09<frosch123>for industries: either FIRS if you want something drastically different, or if the overwhelms you, try ogfx+industries instead
08:09<@planetmaker>keoz, probably not so much. dunno
08:09<argoneus>does that work together well?
08:10<argoneus>frosch123: FIRS is a bit too much for me I figured
08:10<argoneus>but I don't know what else to do
08:10<keoz>argoneus: in my case, those 2 work fine together
08:10<argoneus>just going coal - factory
08:10<argoneus>oil - refinery
08:10<argoneus>is kind of boring
08:10<frosch123>argoneus: did you find the parameter gui for firs?
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>my usual set up is something like DBSetXL(+FIRS extension),GermanRV,HEQS,AV8,FISH
08:10<argoneus>frosch123: parameter GUI?
08:10<@Alberth>argoneus: default firs is very big, but you can select a basic economy as well, which is much better playable
08:10<frosch123>in newgrf settings, you can select a grf, and then there is a button at the bottom for parameters
08:11<frosch123>the good newgrfs allow adjusting various things
08:11<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: those things
08:11<argoneus>look like what I want
08:11<frosch123>in the case of firs, you can choose different economies with significantly lower industry type counts
08:11<argoneus>so something like
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>you can also exchange FISH for NewShips.
08:12<argoneus>dbsetxl, firs, fish, grv, heqs and av8
08:12<argoneus>that works fine?
08:12<keoz>or use them together.
08:12<frosch123>argoneus: dbset is ancient, you need the extension grf, which eddi mentions
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>DBSetXL needs an extension GRF to support the cargos
08:12<frosch123>using a more modern set is way easier :)
08:12<@planetmaker>and it's not readily available either
08:12<argoneus>extension grf?
08:12<argoneus>what then :<
08:13<frosch123>just ignore eddi :p
08:13<keoz>Ok. Now the guy is even more confused as before :p
08:13<@planetmaker>well, the suggestion I pasted above :)
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's easy to find on grfcrawler
08:13<argoneus>what about 2cc?
08:13<keoz>never tried it
08:13<@planetmaker>keoz, sure. Never ask about "the best newgrf combo". 10 people, 15 opinions
08:13<frosch123>argoneus: try one train set at a time
08:13<frosch123>less confusing
08:13<keoz>Clearly ^^
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>2cc-Set probably fails the "no overpowered" check :p
08:13<argoneus>I'm already confused
08:13<@planetmaker>argoneus, yes. Just try stuff.
08:13<argoneus>I need some special version of dbsetxl?
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>2cc-Set is MASSIVE
08:14<@planetmaker>there's no comprehensive 'must have', 'must use' guide
08:14<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: that sounds good
08:14<@planetmaker>everyone has a different opinion
08:14<frosch123>argoneus: exactly, that's why i would not recommend dbset for a starter
08:14<argoneus>massive as in
08:14<argoneus>a huge choice?
08:14<argoneus>a huge set of choices*
08:15<argoneus>but aren't there also like conflicts
08:15<argoneus>isn't some road vehicle set aimed at 1950 start date
08:15<argoneus>and another train set at 1850
08:15<frosch123>yes, there are tons of conflicts with dbset
08:15<argoneus>and then it fucks up?
08:15<frosch123>for example you can only use it in temperate
08:15<frosch123>only with certain extension grfs and such
08:15<argoneus>I'll try 2cc
08:15<argoneus>and see if I like it
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>sets are generally fine for a 1920-ish start
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>before that it gets tricky
08:15<argoneus>oh wow
08:15<argoneus>2cc has a LOT of trains
08:16<keoz>UKRS/eGRVTS are fine before 1920
08:16<argoneus>can I use egrvts with heq and grv?
08:16<argoneus>or not suggested
08:16<keoz>I do and never experienced problems.
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>i suggest you stop theorycrafting now, and just try some of the already mentioned combinations
08:16<keoz>take time. One at a time.
08:17<b_jonas>2cc is a more realistic than the default set, but is more difficult to play IMO
08:17<argoneus>2cc / grv / heq / av8/ fish / firs basic
08:17<argoneus>I'll try these
08:17<keoz>that's a good starting point
08:17<b_jonas>as in, you have to make choices between trains depending on their intended use rather than always choosing the best one
08:17<argoneus>all those sets work with FIRS btw?
08:17<b_jonas>argoneus: try fish2
08:18<frosch123>hmm, is it a safe bet that all grfs in content download work with firs?
08:18<keoz>Don't forget to configure them before starting your game.
08:18<frosch123>as in: the ancient cruft that does not work, never made it there?
08:19<b_jonas>argoneus: don't you want a town replacement set too?
08:19<b_jonas>and extra stations? I really like Industrial Stations set, plus you may want some others for passenger stations too
08:20<b_jonas>all the fancy bling on stations is really nice
08:20<keoz>b_jonas: maybee it's better let him time to get into the first one he's going to try :)
08:21<b_jonas>I don't like most of these town replacement sets, I want a better one
08:21<keoz>TTRS is nice
08:22*keoz pulls trunk fearing for its patches.
08:22<b_jonas>I tried that but I didn't like it
08:22<b_jonas>I think my problem with TTRS is that already in 1950 the towns looked like they're from 2000
08:22<b_jonas>I want rural stuff in 1950
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>you want 1950 towns to look all bombed out?
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>like "realistic"?
08:23<keoz>b_jonas: I mix Swedish houses + TTRS + TaI :p
08:23<keoz>works fine together
08:23<b_jonas>keoz: Swedish is good, yes
08:23<b_jonas>what's TaI?
08:23<keoz>Pikka's Town and Industries
08:24<b_jonas>I see
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>that would be PTaI? :p
08:24<keoz>actually the GRF only introduces houses and is in an early stage of development
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>or is the P silent? :p
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>(why does english have so many silent letters?)
08:25<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26885 /trunk/src (8 files in 6 dirs) (2014-09-21 12:25:04 UTC)
08:25<@DorpsGek>-Feature-ish: user interface for limiting the maximum height of a map
08:25<keoz>Mmh. Pulled to fast :p
08:25<keoz>Maybee wait for evening.
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>keoz: probably shouldn't pull before the nightly :p
08:25<keoz>yeah !
08:26<keoz>which is actually a good thing, since I theorically have a lot of work :p
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>on a sunday?
08:26<keoz>I'm teacher. Need to prepare my lessons for next week.
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08:33<frosch123>so, you are a young teacher :p
08:33<argoneus>there's also new towns and stations?
08:33<argoneus>anything good?
08:34<keoz>frosch123: well, for the kids I'm an old old old man :)
08:34<frosch123>argoneus: let's say, there is an overwhelming amount of stations :)
08:34<keoz>argoneus: the basics: NewStations, Industrial Station Renewal
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08:35<frosch123>keoz: i had a geography teacher, who used only material from his own school time
08:35<argoneus>keoz: that's only
08:35<frosch123>he literally repeated word by word what he used
08:35<argoneus>only visual, right?
08:35<keoz>must have been hard :p
08:35<frosch123>he was not able to comprehent what he was talking about
08:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26886 trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp (2014-09-21 12:35:34 UTC)
08:35<@DorpsGek>-Change (r26885): the max height setting belongs more in the limitations section of the settings
08:35<keoz>I teach history/geography. I like using beamers
08:35<frosch123>you were better at tests if you could memorize the exact wording :p
08:36<keoz>(mmh is beamer used in english ?)
08:37<frosch123>no, it's a data/video projector
08:37<frosch123>a beamer is a "Kettenanschärer", no idea what that is though :p
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>never heard that word before :p
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a chainsaw-type thing to shear sheep :p
08:39<Wolf01>ok, cheese omelette and a banana, I lwft out the wurstel because I didn't want to open one of those uber sized 3-pack, now I'm ready to do.. mmmh the coffee
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>which doesn't sound very safe :p
08:39<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26887 /trunk/src (cheat_gui.cpp cheat_type.h) (2014-09-21 12:39:24 UTC)
08:39<@DorpsGek>-Add: cheat for changing the height level (mostly due to the mess with changing snow levels and such)
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: is that a wise thing to do? i vaguely remember that we once removed the climate cheat, because things were just too messy
08:41<argoneus>I can't find "german road vehicles" in content download
08:41<@Rubidium>climate change is at least an order of magnitude worse
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's not there
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>get it from website
08:41<argoneus>is egrvts2 a worthy replacement?
08:41<argoneus>I mean, does it have trams?
08:41<argoneus>like, trams that can carry a lot
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08:42<Eddi|zuHause>i heard that trams in eGRVTS do not offer any improvement over road vehicles, but i never used it
08:42<@Rubidium>there is already moving snowlines, but say double the height level moves the snow level by a factor two as well so places that used to have snow won't anymore
08:42<@Rubidium>so they might lose things like required cargos
08:42<@Rubidium>but that's more a game play issue that having the wrong cargos and such
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: yes. so industries with the flag "Must be above maximum snow height" won't be anymore
08:43<@Rubidium>and once they die, the won't respawn (unless you build higher mountains)
08:44<@Rubidium>likewise, if you add a NewGRF with a much higher snow line you get the same effect
08:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26888 /trunk/src (ground_vehicle.hpp roadveh_cmd.cpp) (2014-09-21 12:44:38 UTC)
08:44<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: use ints for some z-levels of vehicles (ic111)
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: maybe a scenario_developer-only setting is more useful than a cheat?
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if that can be a GUI thing then
08:46<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: you got the same issues in SE
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but maybe a person that enabled scenario_developer mode knows about some of them :p
08:51<argoneus>wait what
08:51<argoneus>there is monorail in 1950 in 2CC
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>sounds about right
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>monorail as in that weird commuter rail stuff that never really took off
08:52<argoneus>so it's not as good as vanilla monorail?
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>but some cities have a monorail system where others would have a metro/subway
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>it won't be this ultra-high-speed stuff that you know from original
08:54<argoneus>oh ok
08:55<frosch123>2cc is a realism-based newgrf, you won't find stuff that didn't exist
08:56<frosch123>unless maybe after 2010 in rare cases
08:56<frosch123>i.e. after the grf was released
09:00<argoneus>for some reason
09:00<argoneus>my town names don't work
09:00<argoneus>I enabled like 4 of them but when I make map they aren't there
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>you need to select them in game settings after you added the grf
09:01<frosch123>only add one grf, and enable them in game options
09:01<frosch123>it's tricky :p
09:01<frosch123>one of the shittiest interfaces we have :)
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes, right after the font size setting :p
09:01<frosch123>funnily it fails even more in stable releases
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, my suggestion was: scan all grfs for town name content (or add action14 flag), remove those from the list of available grfs, but add them to town name setting. then on game start automatically activate the appropriate grf
09:04<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, and what about grfs which do both, townnames and other shit? (do we have those?)
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>those should better not exist...
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>they cause weird stuff anyway
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>treat them as townname-only
09:22<@Rubidium> <- does Supercheese have a point there? It as if he does to me
09:23<LordAro>seems like it to me
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09:24<Eddi|zuHause>although the whole sentence doesn't make much sense if you don't already know what it means
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>makes a terrible case for a tooltip
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>or description
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>does anyone ever disable that, anyway?
09:25<@Rubidium>the signal GUI?
09:26<@Rubidium>if so, then yes
09:26<@planetmaker>the 2nd one should be "built". The first one remain "build"
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09:27<@Rubidium>so, who can come up with a better description
09:28<LordAro>personally, i think Eddi|zuHause's right - that setting is rather useless
09:29<Pikka>ctrl-clicking still cycles through presignals, right?
09:29<@planetmaker>depends on setting, Pikka
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you can even select presignal-only, pathsignal-only or all
09:30<@planetmaker>and indeed, maybe the 'enable signal gui' setting is one which could become openttd.cfg - only
09:30<@planetmaker>or just disappear
09:30<@Rubidium>LordAro: if I remove the setting, then I remove the window as well
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>pffft :p
09:30*Pikka thinks, by default, both ctrl-clicking and the signal gui should be path signals only
09:30<@Rubidium>because the window is rather useless for me ;)
09:31<Pikka>non-path signals are a relic for "advanced" builders only ;)
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: or maybe change the setting so the gui also has the option presignal-only, pathsignal-only, all, none
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>but some people use path signas plus the plain block signal
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>might want to cater for those, too.
09:32<Pikka>those people are "advanced" and can turn the full selection on
09:33<@planetmaker>path signals and all signals might suffice
09:33<Pikka>for new players, the difference between "plain block signals" and path signals is a common point of confusion
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if this is "advanced". many noob-advice threads talk about using the block signal on straight track with no switches
09:33<@planetmaker>yeah. And default could be 'path signals only'
09:34<Pikka>eddi: yes, because the reddit crowd etc take it as gospel that using path signals everywhere is going to kill performance
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>but yes, maybe when we want to phase out the block signals, hiding them by default may be a good idea
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: not only there
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09:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's like "moving goods to town improves growth"
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>an urban myth that's hard to kill
09:35<Pikka>it would be easier to kill if there were fewer noobs asking "what's the difference between all these signals" ;)
09:36<Pikka>which would happen if we hid the non-path signals by default
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you've convinced me.
09:36<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: why? Okay, moving goods away from towns improves growth in the same way... but still... it's an improvement over not moving goods
09:36<@Rubidium>at least when you don't have a booming pax/mail network in the town
09:36<@planetmaker>Rubidium, could be pax or mail, too (goods was meant as the cargo label)
09:37<@planetmaker>coal or oil works the same way, if close enough
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: exactly, there is nothing special about goods
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>can get the same growths by serving 5 coal mines
09:38<@Rubidium>true, but it doesn't say "only moving goods improves growth"
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but it's meant that way
09:41<@Rubidium>are you sure?
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09:41<@Rubidium>I see it as a scientist having tried stuff and there's a remarkable improvement in town growth when sending (only) goods to the town
09:42<@Rubidium>but then I'm a bit pedantic in those kinds of things
09:42<@Rubidium>"you know that this contract means X and Y, right", no... it means "do it as you do it now" (which is definitely not X and Y)
09:43<argoneus>who here was helping me with timetabling?
09:43<argoneus>something with telling a bus to wait for a long time at one station to catch up
09:44<frosch123>eddi and me
09:45<frosch123>it's always the same douchebags
09:45<frosch123>maybe you can ask pm for a third opinion
09:45<argoneus>so um
09:45<argoneus>I autofilled the orders
09:45<argoneus>and set them to wait at one station for 10 days
09:45<argoneus>and now I'm not sure what the start date should be
09:45<argoneus>does it even matter?
09:46<frosch123>no, the absolute start date does not matter
09:46<frosch123>only the relative start date between vehicles
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>ctrl+click on "start date" to spread out evenly all vehicles that share this order
09:46<argoneus>oh ok
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>and make sure at the station with the waiting time there is sufficient space for overtaking
09:47<argoneus>as in, having more loading slots?
09:47<argoneus>so they don't have to wait
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise late vehicles will eternally get stuck behind an on-time vehicle
09:47<@Rubidium>or specifically, for measurements: "maximum time between measurements: 4 months, maximum exceedance of maximum time: 4 weeks" vs "measure in a timeframe of 5 weeks window before and after moment repeating every 4 months, you may exceed that 10 week period by 3 weeks" (in other words, you're not exceeding is you do the first measurement at the begin of the window and the second at the end, a difference of 4 months + 10 weeks (over 6 months)). Now
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but when you say "only transport goods" that already skews the measurements that you might get
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: like this experiment with the 3 grass types
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>get a sloped area (from "wet" to "dry"), and drop each seed type separately, all give the same outcome of optimal growth. drop in all 3 seed types together, you get one grass type optimizing on "wet", the other on "dry" and the third in the middle.
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>a result you would never get from observing each one individually
09:51<@Rubidium>true, but isn't that one of the fallacies of science?
09:51<@Rubidium>you need to try *all* permutations of *everything* before you can conclusively say something?
09:51<Pikka>so, given all that, does "affect towns as goods/candy does" in the cargo spec actually do anything? ;)
09:52<@Rubidium>well, towns in snowy areas need goods to grow (and I guess in toyland too)
09:52<@Rubidium>but that's specific to those towns
09:52<Pikka>they need water and food
09:52<Pikka>do they need goods?
09:54<Pikka>that says "affect towns as goods" used to affect subsidy generation, but doesn't any more. so does it do anything now?
09:55<MTsPony>hey guys how do i change and KEEP a setting saved on a running server, so it writes it to openttd.cfg on exit? i use "setting" command to chsnge stuff but it wont last :(
09:55<@Rubidium>hmm, you're right
09:56<@Rubidium>MTsPony: setting_newgame + save_config?
09:56<@Rubidium>but that affects only new games
09:56<MTsPony>thats ok. im just annoyed whenever i change a setting in a running game its lost on server exit or auto restart.
09:56<@Rubidium>regardless, a dedicated server might be configured to reread the configuration file upon restart trashing all local changes
09:57<argoneus>how do I make my buses overtake?
09:57<argoneus>there's a train of 4 buses
09:57<argoneus>and they always move into the same station
09:57<argoneus>even though they can choose another one
09:58<Pikka>it's hard to tell without a screenshot, argoneus
09:59<argoneus>industrial park is my waiting station
09:59<argoneus>and it has two stations, one in front of the depo and one where the tag is
09:59<Pikka>those appear to be trams
09:59<argoneus>but trams can choose different paths, no?
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10:00<Pikka>yep. but they can't overtake, and they won't necessarily realise they need to go a different way if there's a big gap between the junction and the station.
10:01<argoneus>what can I do then? :<
10:01<argoneus>I just need them spread out
10:01<Pikka>let them bunch up, or provide different routes
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10:02<Pikka>one way to at least seperate them into two groups would be to send them around the loop in opposite directions
10:03<argoneus>by the way
10:03<argoneus>buses overtake when needed?
10:03<@peter1138>path signals only, yes
10:03<argoneus>path signals?
10:03<Pikka>non-articulated, non-tram buses can overtake
10:04<@peter1138>special setting: "my_name_is_v453000_and_i_like_block_signals" yes
10:04<Pikka>path signals are a different conversation :)
10:04<@peter1138>yeah i just got back in and read the scroll back :D
10:06<@peter1138>Maximum map height: 15
10:06<@peter1138>What's that for?
10:07<@planetmaker>allow specifying other maximum heights?
10:07<@peter1138>Maybe it would if the buttons weren't greyed out.
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10:11<@Rubidium>peter1138: just change a specific constant in src/tile_type.h
10:11-!-kais58__ is now known as kais58|AFK
10:11<@peter1138>If it's not ready I won't bother yet :)
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: i found most effective for end stations is a setup like this:,%204.%20Aug%201953_3.png like "Süd" on the lower right
10:12<argoneus>I see
10:12<argoneus>that looks neat
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>trams can choose equally likely whether they go left or right around
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>so when the platform is already occupied, they choose the other one
10:12<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, you're not meant to knock down all the buildings
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but when they stand in my view...
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: but it works better when the trams are a full tile long, instead of a half tile
10:15<argoneus>I don't have any bigger trams yet
10:15<@peter1138>Meh, I suppose I'll have to start using NewGRFs soon...
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>with half-tile you tend to get two trams stuck together
10:22<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26889 /trunk/src/linkgraph (refresh.cpp refresh.h) (2014-09-21 14:22:32 UTC)
10:22<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Predict links for station-autorefitting vehicles
10:25<keoz>I like block signals. They work perfectly fine.
10:27<@peter1138>Until you try to signal up a two-way station
10:27<keoz>That's why I use path signals when I need path signals :)
10:28-!-KouDy [~koudy@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:28<keoz>It introduces more variety in the game. Variety is nice :)
10:29<keoz>I even have some sort of pervert pleasure still using pre-signals, sometime.
10:29<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, damn it, I just tried to scroll your screenshot :(
10:30<argoneus>the long tile trams
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i posted a giant screenshot of that game earlier (or, like 30 times in the past)
10:30<argoneus>do they need more stations?
10:30<argoneus>tram station tiles that is
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138:,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB)
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>unfortunately, it's a savegame made with a YACD version that only i ever had...
10:32<@peter1138>YACD was nice...
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes. there were some advantages and some disadvantages over cargodist
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>the advantage was that it encouraged connecting remote industries, the disadvantage that you had to stick to that exact set of industries that was given at game start
10:33<keoz>Never tried it. Cargo destinations where independent from served or unserved stations, isn't it ?
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>which made it difficult to start out
10:34<@peter1138>connecting remote industries is a problem, really
10:34<@peter1138>it gives you way too much money
10:34<@peter1138>connecting the local industries is a harder game, i think
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10:35<Eddi|zuHause>by "remote" i meant "somewhat deviant from your network", like on a hill
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>in cargodist, you can just ignore such industries
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>and shove everything to the same factory
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>that is especially terrible with goods and food, which have no actual purpose
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>connecting more destinations may diminish your income
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>so it's discouraged with cargodist
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>but YACD enforced that distribution, because it would increase the supply
10:39<@peter1138>ah, right, ok
10:39<@peter1138>yes, with cargodist i can send everything to an industry the other side of the map
10:40<@peter1138>but someone once said it would be relatively easy to make cargodist to behave like cargodest
10:40<@peter1138>not seen it though :S
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>we had an extensive discussion with fonso on the forum and he decided he wouldn't code it
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10:42<Eddi|zuHause>afair one of the main problems was an efficient way to find "all suitible destinations"
10:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26890 trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp (2014-09-21 14:45:35 UTC)
10:45<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup: remove unneeded obfuscation via IConsoleSetSetting
10:46<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i would leave that to game scripts
10:46<frosch123>there are too many opinions on how demand/supply should work
10:47<@peter1138>mostly because people seem to think they own the industries and cargo :p
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11:04<Eddi|zuHause>one UI thing about train fever that's probably dangerous is that in the load savegame screen, the "delete" button is way closer to the savegame than the "start" button...
11:09<keoz>Implicitely: You just deleted a savegame ? :p
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11:18<Eddi|zuHause>but i think that i would every time i open that screen
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>the game is great, but the UI is wrong on so many details
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>like half the common tasks need more clicks than they need because the button is on some remote location
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>or the save game window doesn't remember the last name i gave it
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11:21<Eddi|zuHause>or after you close the save game window, it keeps focus, so your keypresses disappear somewhere, until you click on the map
11:22<+michi_cc>Yeah, the UI is.... Just compare the rail depot window with the road depot window.
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>or the snapping point distance for train stations is too large, train stations only snap to roads, not to rails, and the snapping distance for continuing the second track is too low, sometimes leaving tiny gaps in the rails
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>also annoying: all the 4 corners have menus in them, so you can't map-edge-scroll diagonally
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how that can be resolved properly, though
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>also: did anyone find a hotkey for pausing/unpausing?
11:25<@peter1138>f1 :D
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, no :p
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>also annoying: clicking on the pause button again does not unpause
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>and there's loads of missing features, like: "unload at the next station and then go to depot"
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>instead of "instantly drop all your cargo and go to depot"
11:28<argoneus>what station width do you guys use?
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>and, of course, planning mode for multiple sections of track
11:28<@Alberth>argoneus: 4-6
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: one track for each line
11:28<argoneus>I mean
11:28<argoneus>in settings
11:28<argoneus>maximum width
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>oh, you're talking about openttd :p
11:29<argoneus>because when I have a bus station in the city linked to a train station
11:29<argoneus>eventually I can't expand it
11:29<argoneus>oh, what were you talking about?
11:29<keoz>a new toy :)
11:29<argoneus>that train fever thing?
11:30*Alberth gives argoneus a cookie
11:30<argoneus>I haven't played it
11:30<argoneus>it sounds like some facebook game from the name
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>it is very not a facebook game...
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>not entirely sure what a facebook game is, though
11:31<argoneus>is it actually good?
11:31<argoneus>according to reviews it's very unpolished
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>supposedly the core mechanics of a facebook game is "annoy all people you know by repeatedly sending them invite links"
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>all the reviews are true, basically. doesn't mean it's not an addicting game with beatiful graphics
11:33<argoneus>1, is there a way to refit to the proper engine when replacing train engines?
11:33<b_jonas>maybe they'll improve the UI later
11:33<argoneus>I remember replacing my diesel train with another diesel train
11:33<argoneus>but it was refitted to fruit
11:33<argoneus>even though it had 12 passenger wagons
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>(again, why is there a silent "w" in "answer"?)
11:34<argoneus>and 2,
11:34<argoneus>if you have a, say, passenger network from A to B
11:34<argoneus>and there is city C roughly between them
11:34<argoneus>how do you connect it to this network?
11:34<argoneus>and if you say "however you want" I am going to be sad :<
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: autoreplace refits to the same cargo that the original vehicle was carrying. if the original didn't carry any cargo, it can only use the default cargo
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11:36<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: the real question is why you didn't connect that city first?
11:36<argoneus>no well
11:36<argoneus>wait let me make picture
11:37<argoneus>I was thinking
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>and the answer is: either a line (A-C-B-C), or a triangle (A-B), (B-C), (C-A)
11:37<argoneus>maybe add a station in the middle
11:38<b_jonas>argoneus: is C smaller or larger than the others?
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>you can also try two circles (A-B-C) and (A-C-B)
11:38<b_jonas>probably smaller if you haven't yet connected it yet
11:38<argoneus>would this work?
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but at B you must have connected stations (and cargodist enabled)
11:39<argoneus>yes I have cargodist
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>(or is that not a "B")?
11:39<argoneus>B is outside the picture
11:39<argoneus>at top right
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>difficult to tell with your "Sauklaue"
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>i meant that wiggly thing between the rectangle-ish-es
11:40<argoneus>that's a station walking symbol
11:40<argoneus>that I just devised
11:40<argoneus>it's supposed to be a chain
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, if those are the same station, it will work
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>the mathematical concept behind that is a "Steiner-Tree"
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11:42<argoneus>I never thought about my stations as graphs
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>to connect 3 points in a graph, you not connect the 3 points by lines, but you introduce a 4th point, which you connect to the 3 others
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>which may or may not result in shorter connections
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>as in the overall length of track you lay down
11:43<argoneus>oh by the way
11:43<argoneus>if I have stations A - B - C
11:43<argoneus>and my orders are A->B->C
11:43<argoneus>is there a way to easily set "go back the same way"?
11:43<argoneus>so it'll automatically go A->B->C->B->A
11:43<argoneus>or do I have to do that manually
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>no, you have to explicitly add those orders
11:43<argoneus>ok :<
11:44<Wolf01>if trains must travel through B to go from A to C, you could use implicit orders
11:44<argoneus>but then they don't stop, do they?
11:44<Wolf01>to make it simple: remove the "go non stop"
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>only when you say "go non-stop"
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11:45<Eddi|zuHause>but it will avoid B if there is a way around
11:45<Wolf01>and just put go to A, go to B
11:45<argoneus>I'll just put it manually
11:45<argoneus>with shared orders it's not hard anyway
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>it usually gets fiddly with tram lines, which tend to have more stations
11:46<argoneus>I'm still figuring how to make trams
11:46<argoneus>with timetabling
11:46<argoneus>and it's tedious
11:46<argoneus>especially with half-tile trains
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>yes. it was even more tedious back when i did it, without the ctrl+click on start date
11:47<@peter1138>Hmm... I wonder if depot/station pickers should stay at the current zoom level. They're already quite big.
11:47<argoneus>I wish there was a way to define road vehicle spread
11:47<argoneus>like signal spread
11:47<@peter1138>argoneus, timetables
11:48<argoneus>but timetables screw up really fast
11:48<argoneus>for me at least
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>release the vehicles from depot one-by-one instead all at once
11:53<argoneus>but when I already have a network
11:53<argoneus>and I want to add one new station
11:53<argoneus>then it's all fucked
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes. either you can estimate a time and set that manually, or you have to start filling from scratch
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>but if your timetable doesn't have room for rebalancing at the end station, you're basically screwed
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11:59<Pokka>it didn't like that much
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>hm, the technological jumps in train fever are a bit too large... like jumping from 50km/h to 100km/h
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>also, the freight wagons should probably have half speed...
12:00<Japa>Is the scenario format the same as the savegame format?
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>maybe in the future there will be a stripped-down heightmap based format
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>which may lose a bit of precision, but you gain the ability to switch newgrfs and stuff
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12:04<b_jonas>is that game somehow related to tt?
12:04<argoneus>when you timetable your vehicles
12:04<@peter1138>2x picker sprites are giant :S
12:04<argoneus>how long do you tell them to stay in depot?
12:05<argoneus>in the main station
12:05<argoneus>is 10 days short?
12:05<@peter1138>however long it takes them
12:05<argoneus>I want to timetable them
12:05<argoneus>and I need a way of catching up with latecomers
12:06<argoneus>I'll make it like 1/4 of the total time I guess
12:06<Japa>Yeah, I read about the heightmap thing, but development on that seems halted.
12:06-!-kais58|AFK is now known as kais58__
12:07<Japa>By the looks of things, the easiest way to do what I want would be to modify Openttd itself to do it.
12:08<FLHerne>b_jonas: It's pretty much the same gameplay concept, with much nicer graphics
12:08<b_jonas>I see
12:09<FLHerne>Or fancier ones, anyway
12:10<FLHerne>The way they've managed to make track-laying work in real-3D is impressive, even if it's not very polished
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12:16<Pikka>oh, there he is now
12:17<andythenorth>Pikka chops
12:18<Pikka>forum pm incoming
12:18<andythenorth>Hmm I need real computer, this ipad thing no good
12:18<Pikka>containing certain zellepins
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12:19<andythenorth>that’s better
12:19<andythenorth>if our future contains typing on glass, then Tim Cook & co need to make the glass move
12:19<andythenorth>I hate it
12:19<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26891 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-21 16:19:52 UTC)
12:19<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Add methods to retrieve flows from a FlowStatMap
12:20<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26892 /trunk (8 files in 4 dirs) (2014-09-21 16:20:14 UTC)
12:20<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Script API for retrieving planned flow
12:20<andythenorth>awesome hover zellepin
12:20<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26893 /trunk/src (9 files in 6 dirs) (2014-09-21 16:20:48 UTC)
12:20<@DorpsGek>-Feature: ScriptStationList_Cargo for sorting cargo by from and via
12:20<andythenorth>hover blimps
12:21<Pikka>does it?
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12:25<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26894 /trunk/src/script/api (6 files in 3 dirs) (2014-09-21 16:25:15 UTC)
12:25<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Swap method for script lists
12:26<argoneus>my trams are kinda separating now
12:26<argoneus>but it takes a few months
12:26<argoneus>to stabilise
12:26<keoz>that's normal
12:26<argoneus>if not a year or two
12:27<@peter1138>andythenorth, can you not use a bluetooth keyboard on theM?
12:27<andythenorth>probably yes
12:27<andythenorth>never thought of that
12:27<keoz>problem with trams is that when they overtake each other, it's hard to reorder them properly
12:27<andythenorth>what with the crippled OS, poor performance and tiny screen, I never get tablets
12:27<andythenorth>afaict, they’re for reading something on the web while you do a poo
12:28<andythenorth>which is apparently what Steve Jobs’ main requirement was for the ipad
12:28<keoz>I'm not a big fan too
12:28<andythenorth>the touch angle is optimised for that specific position (don’t believe me? try it - and compare to most android phones, which are optimised for standing up)
12:29<keoz>Is there also a turkish toilet version ?
12:30<@Alberth>arguably that is the moment when people have the most time (sitting in trains, cars, buses, toilets, etc)
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: supposedly the tablet is meant to be lying on a table
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>or lieing? i can never tell
12:35<@peter1138>Hmm, I suppose I could fiddle with DrawPixelInfo :S
12:35<andythenorth>Pikka: so this thing about all trucks being same speed
12:35<andythenorth>and generations arriving at same time…
12:35*andythenorth considering it
12:36<Pikka>I might chicken out and have it as a parameter. universal refit as default, "TTD style" one-truck-per-cargo[class] as an option.
12:36<@peter1138> < giant picker sprites
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12:37<argoneus>do you guys timetable trains too?
12:37<Pikka>fancy, peter1138
12:37<andythenorth>ho ho
12:37*andythenorth likes
12:37<argoneus>or is it not worth it for trains
12:37<andythenorth>also small screen resolution
12:37<@peter1138>wondering if i should make the pickers "normal" size
12:37<@peter1138>andythenorth, better for screenshots
12:37<andythenorth>is nice
12:38<andythenorth>peter1138: got a patch?
12:38<andythenorth>I can play with it when the kids are in bed
12:38<andythenorth>it’s probably potato / potato
12:38<Japa>FLHerne, what was that game you guys were talking about before?
12:38<andythenorth>the big ones look ok
12:38<andythenorth>but they don’t match the tile size
12:38<@peter1138>argoneus, pretty much any feature is made for trains, and just happens to work with other things :p
12:39<@peter1138>andythenorth, well the viewport is zoomed out :p
12:39<FLHerne>Japa: Train Fever?
12:39<andythenorth>to the ‘correct size’ :P
12:39<andythenorth>peter1138: that size picker will reveal some of the poor drawing in CHIPS
12:39<andythenorth>so um...smaller?
12:40<@peter1138>hm, i should try it with zbase
12:40<andythenorth>also why drive-in stops any more?
12:40<andythenorth>let’s bin those
12:40<@peter1138>i still use them
12:40<andythenorth>me too
12:40<andythenorth>for hysterical reasons
12:40<@peter1138>as predicted, works fine with zbase
12:40<@peter1138>you get the high-res sprites, not pixelated
12:41<andythenorth>ship it
12:41<andythenorth>what could go wrong?
12:41<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26895 /trunk/bin/ai/regression (12 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-21 16:41:03 UTC)
12:41<@DorpsGek>-Change: Allow for multiple independent test cases for AI API regression
12:41<@peter1138>i tend to use drive-in stops as terminus stops
12:41<@peter1138>but then i'm not using newgrfs at the momenmt
12:41<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE
12:42<Japa>FLHerne, THANKS
12:42<FLHerne>andythenorth: The drive-in stops are good for places with long layovers (for timetable keeping-up purposes)
12:43<andythenorth>Pikka: I’m considering making all articulated Hog trucks same speed per-generation
12:43<andythenorth>on any busy road, they will all travel at speed of slowest anyway
12:43<FLHerne>andythenorth: Because they can be occupied by lots of vehicles, and none of them block each other
12:43<andythenorth>FLHerne: drive-through has higher throughput
12:43<andythenorth>coop swears it
12:44<andythenorth>also introducing all trucks in same year for same reason of speed
12:44<FLHerne>andythenorth: They have better throughput, but less waiting capacity, and waiting vehicles obstruct the ones behind
12:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26896 /trunk/bin/ai/regression (6 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-21 16:44:37 UTC)
12:44<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Move AIStationList* tests to separate test case
12:45<Pikka>introducing in the same year, or as near as possible with randomness, makes sense
12:45<FLHerne>Which makes drive-in better for places timetabled for 5-day-odd waits to keep things reliably on time
12:45<andythenorth>I don’t like the auto-replace faff of all vehicles upgrading at once
12:45<andythenorth>but otoh, the speed thing is relevant to gameplay
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26897 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/tst_stationlist (3 files) (2014-09-21 16:45:51 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Change: Add some more AIStationList autotests
12:46<Pikka>upgrade by group, then, or only when old. you don't *have* to replace everything ASAP
12:46<fonsinchen>So, there you go. AI and GS API for cargodist.
12:46<Pikka>player choice and all that.
12:46<fonsinchen>If anything is missing, let me know.
12:46<Pikka>thanks fonsinchen :D
12:47<Eddi|zuHause> <-- that could have looked a bit better if the station snapped to existing rails :/
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12:59<@peter1138>Hmm... £19.99
12:59<@peter1138>Linux native... oh no...
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13:10*andythenorth puts that idea down
13:10<andythenorth>wrong end of a poo-covered stick
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13:22<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26898 trunk/bin/ai/regression/ (2014-09-21 17:22:50 UTC)
13:22<@DorpsGek>-Fix: hopefully make regression under MinGW work again
13:27<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26899 /trunk/src (viewport.cpp viewport_func.h) (2014-09-21 17:27:37 UTC)
13:27<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: reduce the amount of tiles that needs to be drawn by taking the height of tiles into account instead of drawing way too many (ic111)
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13:29<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26900 /trunk/src (3 files) (2014-09-21 17:29:48 UTC)
13:29<@DorpsGek>-Fix-ish: dirty the appropriate area around map edges when terraforming there to prevent any artefacts from occuring (ic111)
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13:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26901 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-09-21 17:31:41 UTC)
13:31<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6120]: typo in string
13:33<LordAro>Rubidium: there are some indent issues in r26900
13:35<@Rubidium>oh... crap
13:36<LordAro>well, 84 & 85, actually
13:37<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26902 trunk/src/terraform_cmd.cpp (2014-09-21 17:37:30 UTC)
13:37<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26900): erroneous spaces instead of tabs
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26903 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-09-21 17:45:52 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 132 changes by Stabilitronas
13:46<@DorpsGek>vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi
13:46<@DorpsGek>welsh - 5 changes by kazzie
13:52<argoneus>I am using 2cc trains
13:52<argoneus>and I just realized that monorails (metro) can carry much more passengers than regular trains
13:52<argoneus>is there a downside?
13:52<argoneus>they don't seem to be that expensive compared to regular trains
13:53<@peter1138>they're slower, aren't they?
13:54<andythenorth>limited track types?
13:54*andythenorth doesn’t know
13:55<argoneus>oh yeah
13:55<argoneus>they aren't the fastest
13:55<argoneus>but does that matter?
13:55<andythenorth>only over long distances
13:56<andythenorth>over short distances (in cities), total capacity per tile is more important imho
14:01<@peter1138>yeah, total capacity and loading speed
14:01<@peter1138>which is kinda the point of metro trains
14:03<andythenorth>that’s how Iron Horse does it
14:03<andythenorth>dunno about other sets
14:06<argoneus>what the heck does this mean
14:06<argoneus>"single unit metros cannot connect to anything"
14:06<argoneus>that I'll have a metro without wagons..?
14:06<@peter1138>I guess it means they're single-unit.
14:07<Pikka>and they cannot connect to anything...
14:07<argoneus>does that mean they are a glorified tram?
14:07<argoneus>I thought metros always had wagons
14:07<Pikka>did you try it and see what happens?
14:07<argoneus>I cannot add metro wagons
14:07<argoneus>and it looks really weird
14:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26904 /trunk/src (smallmap_gui.cpp smallmap_gui.h) (2014-09-21 18:07:54 UTC)
14:08<@DorpsGek>-Fix: account for the height level for showing the seen area in the viewport (ic111)
14:08<Sylf>it must be a very early metro
14:08<@peter1138>Yeah, that'll do it.
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14:16<@peter1138>hmm, i should be able to click on an implicit order to turn it into a real order
14:16<@peter1138>if only i knew how :p
14:20<andythenorth>I should add some restrictions on what wagons can be added
14:20<andythenorth>it always makes for such gameplay awesomeness
14:20<@peter1138>oh eys
14:20<andythenorth>maybe on a dice roll
14:20<@peter1138>make it random
14:20<andythenorth>“no wagons can be added because you’re unlucky”
14:25<andythenorth>can I query the player face during vehicle cb 36?
14:25*andythenorth considers adding restrictions for ugly faces
14:25<andythenorth>“your vehicles have reduced speed because of ugly face"
14:27<frosch123>you can query the moonphase
14:28<frosch123>river ships travel faster on full mon
14:29<Sylf>yay wagon restriction BAD FEATURE :D
14:29<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26905 trunk/src/heightmap.cpp (2014-09-21 18:29:18 UTC)
14:29<@DorpsGek>-Change: account for the maximum map height when converting heightmaps
14:50<andythenorth>the freight trains in the brit roster of Iron Horse are unrealistically fast
14:50<andythenorth>which I played in a few games and like
14:50<andythenorth>the trucks in brit roster of Road Hog are realistically slow
14:50<andythenorth>should I ‘balance’ them? :P
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14:57<argoneus>I wish there was a "car adding" along with "car removal"
14:57<argoneus>especially for the different 2cc train lengths
14:57<Pikka>slow roadvehicles and fast trains are are good
14:57<Pikka>if you want to encourage people to use trains and not roadvehicles for longer distances
14:58<@peter1138>passengers should drop
14:58<@peter1138>as everyone uses private cars (which don't have to appear on the map)
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15:05<Pikka>implying "population" means something other than "passenger generation" in TTD... what should passengers drop relative to? :P
15:05<@peter1138>dunno... year? :p
15:08<andythenorth>we have a monopoly on transport
15:08<andythenorth>cars are banned
15:09<andythenorth>also, do I want to encourage trains and not RVs for long distance?
15:09<Pikka>long distance road routes are boring
15:09<andythenorth>oh yes
15:09<andythenorth>I remember
15:10<andythenorth>you have to have 1 million trucks
15:10<@peter1138>When do we get Network Rail?
15:13<andythenorth>when do you want it?
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16:13<andythenorth>if Squid can manage 24 ships for 1870-2000, ranging from 20t to 1660t
16:13<andythenorth>why does Road Hog need 42 trams, buses and trucks?
16:14*andythenorth is puzzled
16:15<@planetmaker>because busses don't refit to cargo. Because trams tracks are not roads
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16:15<@peter1138>and nobody uses ships
16:15<andythenorth>does anybody use trucks?
16:15<andythenorth>buses obviously, to keep town rating up
16:15<@peter1138>only the americans who call wagons trucks
16:16<andythenorth>so that you can demolish enough stuff to build more maglevs
16:17*andythenorth considers
16:17<andythenorth>3 generations of trucks might be pointless
16:17<@peter1138>large map
16:17<@peter1138>low towns
16:17<@peter1138>lots of water (60%+)
16:17<@peter1138>cargodist on
16:17<@peter1138>ships are sort of useful until planes
16:17<andythenorth>also infinite capacity
16:18<andythenorth>so good for cargo goal GS
16:18<andythenorth>no contention
16:19<@peter1138>until that's fixed...
16:19<andythenorth>never going to happen
16:19<andythenorth>it’s like roadtypes
16:20<@peter1138>road types is kinda pointless though
16:20<andythenorth>still think one extra type might have something in it
16:20<andythenorth>I’d use it for dirt roads
16:20<andythenorth>and give giant trucks that can’t go on highway
16:21<andythenorth>could do them as trains though
16:21<andythenorth>seems to be the preferred solution
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16:22<argoneus>I wish actual subways were possible :(
16:22<andythenorth>no you don't
16:22<argoneus>i-if you say so
16:22<andythenorth>it’s just a caffeine-induced halucination
16:23<andythenorth>does anyone play past year 2000 anyway?
16:23*andythenorth considers deleting some trucks
16:23<b_jonas>andythenorth: yes
16:23<andythenorth>no you don't
16:24<@peter1138>i do
16:24<@peter1138>current game is at 2143
16:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth, actually... not past. I started later than 2000 :P
16:25<andythenorth>I’m not providing trucks until 2143 :P
16:25<@peter1138>i suppose i should maglev up the whole thing
16:25<andythenorth>1940s -> 1970s -> 1990s is too close for generations
16:25<@peter1138>but... roadsa
16:25<@peter1138>hover cars!
16:25<andythenorth>and hover horses
16:25<andythenorth>roadgoing hoverzepellins
16:25<@peter1138>hover iron horses
16:25*andythenorth wishes that patch had worked
16:26<andythenorth>fr*sch gave me a patch for hovercraft on land
16:26<andythenorth>tended to not avoid buildings
16:26<argoneus>o wait what
16:26<andythenorth>and then asserted
16:26<argoneus>V453000 is czech
16:26<V453000>-> ?
16:26<argoneus>why are there so many czechs in openttd
16:26<andythenorth>is ‘czech’ a synonym for ‘unhinged'
16:26<@planetmaker>haha. You summoned the madness
16:26*andythenorth finds it hard to judge, only got one data point
16:27*andythenorth deletes a wookey
16:27<argoneus>V453000: no I was just looking at
16:27<argoneus>and 'mirin
16:27<andythenorth>1950s -> 1980s is perfectly soon enough for new trucks
16:27<V453000>standard stuff :)
16:27<argoneus>please tell me
16:27<argoneus>how do you get rails so neatly into the city
16:27<argoneus>do you raze the city or do you just build and wait for it to grow
16:27<V453000>you spend a few days building it
16:28<V453000>you build tracks and fill roads to the rest
16:28<argoneus>so you pre-build the city pretty much?
16:28<argoneus>and then just add trains?
16:28<V453000>I put roads, town grows there
16:28<V453000>there is no real other way how to sanely grow a town
16:28<V453000>you need to have control
16:28<V453000>so you build everything
16:29<argoneus>but how do you start off?
16:29<argoneus>right when the game begins, you can't really afford anything, can you
16:29<FLHerne>argoneus: If you're feeling particularly control-freakish, you can forbid towns from building their own roads at all :P
16:29<argoneus>to pre-build things
16:29<argoneus>so far the worst thing I did was build vertical railways at one side of the city
16:29<argoneus>so it would grow in the direction of my stations
16:30<argoneus>but they seemed to dislike me
16:32<argoneus>V453000: how do your first 3 years look like? you can't afford to pre-build anything and you need to make shitty stations, no?
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16:33<V453000>money is irrelevant :)
16:33<@planetmaker>argoneus, you build a shitty money maker first and then you have no money issue to build whatever you want in whatever size
16:33<@planetmaker>Money is no issue
16:33<@peter1138>hmm, not sure about that, i only have £350,000,000
16:34<@peter1138>everything is too cheap :S
16:34<@peter1138>if only we knew how to fix that problem, heh
16:34<argoneus>progressive taxing
16:34<argoneus>all stations you make start belonging to an AI called "State"
16:34<argoneus>after 5 years
16:36<V453000>argoneus: you can start with almost any concept in a small scale with low amount of money early
16:36<V453000>it is all the same
16:36<V453000>what influences the speed of progress is just the costs or how much money you have
16:37<V453000>I strongly believe that having high costs is simply dumb as it only makes the player wait, not make different decisions
16:37<V453000>-> we even cheat money sometimes, or use planes to make money at the start of the game
16:37<V453000>when I play with trains, NUTS is cheap, so you dont really need to wait for money ever
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16:46<argoneus>do you prefer nuts or 2cc?
16:46<argoneus>if you've tried taht
16:46<argoneus>I tried 2cc a few hours ago
16:46<argoneus>and there's an overwhelming amount of trains, but most are utter shit
16:46*Pikka guesses V453000 prefers NUTS
16:47<argoneus>I thought he was referring to the coop games
16:47<argoneus>also, this is potentially a dangerous and personal question
16:47<argoneus>but how old are the people around here +-?
16:47<V453000>"are you serious?" :D
16:47<@planetmaker>25 +- 10?
16:48<@peter1138>planetmaker haha
16:48<@planetmaker>1-sigma intervall. Maybe. Maybe totally wrong guess :P
16:48<@peter1138>Belugas will like that ;D
16:49<argoneus>I'd like to think that a game about trains has the age around 16
16:49<argoneus>but then again everyone here seems to have a degree in mathematics
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16:49<Pikka>bearing in mind that this particular game about trains is 20 years old :)
16:49<@peter1138>you've never seen a model railway club
16:49<@planetmaker>yeah, those have an interesting age characteristics, too
16:50<FLHerne>argoneus: The fact that everyone here uses IRC is probably somewhat biasing things, too
16:50<@peter1138>Usually old, older and oldest. Plus their grandkids.
16:51<FLHerne>31A MRC has 10-18, then 60-8?
16:51<FLHerne>Either in education, or retired
16:51<FLHerne>Actually, there are a couple of 20-somethings, and Neil can't possibly be 60
16:52<argoneus>so basically
16:52<argoneus>every age plays this game
16:52<argoneus>just like flight simulators and that kind of games
16:53<argoneus>but really
16:53<argoneus>just how large percentage of this community is czech people?
16:53<argoneus>there's czech everything, stations, trains, vehicles, railroads, city names, scenarios, huh
16:53*andythenorth does not have a degree in mathematics
16:53<@planetmaker>argoneus, there's XX everything for a shitload of countries
16:53<andythenorth>not at all
16:54<@planetmaker> <-- does that help, argoneus ?
16:55<@planetmaker>ignore the top3 entries
16:55<argoneus>Commercial, huh..
16:55<argoneus>that's a lot of germans
16:56<@planetmaker>well, those basically pay the server :P
16:58*andythenorth ponders
16:58<andythenorth>how fast trucks and buses should be in 1920
16:59<Pikka>unrealistically fast, IMO.
16:59<Pikka>very slow road vehicles are boring.
16:59<Supercheese>Is the U.S. lumped in with some other category, or do we really do, comparatively, that much less with OTTD?
16:59<andythenorth>Pikka: I haz tram balancing problem
16:59<andythenorth>trams are 35mph in 1920, or more
17:00<Sylf>we don't use .us for our home connections
17:00<andythenorth>trucks and buses are 35mph also
17:00*andythenorth wonders what the problem is
17:00<@planetmaker>Supercheese, those country designations are by the address connecting to it, probably by DNS suffix. So it will be mixed in .com likely
17:00<Sylf>so we're part of .com and .net and such
17:00<@planetmaker>and .net and .org
17:00<Supercheese>ah by .tld
17:00<@planetmaker>it's not a decent geolocation thing behind those stats
17:01*Rubidium wonders which country has the highest per capita
17:01<@planetmaker>Rubidium, probably Netherlands ;)
17:01*Pikka has trams are fast, high-capacity and expensive, buses are slow, high-capacity and cheap, coaches are fast and low-capacity. no realisms allowed.
17:01<andythenorth>thinking same
17:02-!-Eddi|zuHause2 [] has joined #openttd
17:03<Eddi|zuHause2>aaaand it did it again...
17:04<andythenorth>Pikka: I’m down to 3 generations of bus / truck
17:04<andythenorth>35mph / 60mph / 85mph
17:04<andythenorth>1930s, 1950s, 1980s
17:04<andythenorth>no futurisms here
17:05<Eddi|zuHause2>what's that in real units?
17:05<Pikka>those are some fast buses and trucks
17:05<andythenorth>35mph is 15m/s
17:05<Eddi|zuHause2>but trucks are never allowed to go more than 90 km/h
17:06<andythenorth>you should have tried a UK motorway in about 1987
17:06-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:06<andythenorth>other Eddi has gone
17:06<Eddi|zuHause2>well, that will show 100 on your meter when you drive along them, because yours is off by 5-10%
17:06-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
17:06<@planetmaker>nah, Estonia has twice the number of hits on OpenTTD pages compared to Netherlands :)
17:06<andythenorth>UK trucks are limited to about 55mph now
17:07<andythenorth>before the limiters....
17:07<andythenorth>anything went
17:07<Pikka>35 to 60 is a big jump
17:07<andythenorth>as long as you had the hp and didn’t get caught
17:07<andythenorth>Pikka: considering 40-55-70
17:07*Pikka has 5 generations of trucks. 40/45/50/60/65 mph, 1910 to 2036.
17:08<andythenorth>I am trying to delete some
17:08<andythenorth>3 is plenty
17:08<Pikka>buses go from 40 to 60, coaches from 55 to 70, and trams from 30 to 70.
17:08<@Rubidium>planetmaker: it's not the Netherlands ;)
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>well, i'm not involved in this in any way, but truck drivers' employers here must keep their speed recordings for about 2 years, for the police to check
17:08<andythenorth>I am assuming all drivers are on amphetamine, and their bosses pay the fines
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>they also check waiting times and stuff
17:08<@planetmaker>Rubidium, yes... at least Estonia
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>bosses never pay fines
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's always the driver who pays fines
17:11<@Rubidium>I got: Estonia, Czech Republic, Netherlands, 'US'-ish (everything .com, .net and unknown together), Finland, Hungary, Slovakia, Norway (last two are pretty close), Denmark, Germany, Austria, Poland
17:11<@Rubidium>(based on hits)
17:11<Supercheese>Oh good grief more strings added
17:11<@peter1138>That's ok, latin's a dead language.
17:12<@Rubidium>if I'd remove unknown from 'US'-ish, then it's be below Norway
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>what are you measuring?
17:12<@Rubidium>hits per capita
17:12<andythenorth>there aren’t enough RV sets around
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>can't you geoip them?
17:13<andythenorth>playing with other people’s labour of love shows me what I dislike about them
17:13<andythenorth>Pikka: when is TruckApples coming?
17:13<@peter1138>what's a good tram set?
17:14<Wolf01>'night all
17:14<@planetmaker>or japanese
17:14<Pikka>I don't know, andy. Since I've done the hoverzellepins, should I switch to trucks now rather than continue with boots?
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17:14<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, not on bananas?
17:14<@peter1138>well that's useless then :S
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>i've complained multiple times
17:14<andythenorth>Pikka: nah boots :)
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>and never got a straight answer on why...
17:14<andythenorth>more boots
17:15<@peter1138>is it an mb thing?
17:15<andythenorth>then you can put out PineBoots
17:15<andythenorth>and I can put out Squid 1.0.0
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>Uwe is as close as MB as you're gonna get :)
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>it should theoretically be found via grfcrawler
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>and the link was mentioned earlier today
17:16<@peter1138>don't see japanese trams on bananas either
17:16<@peter1138>i cba with manually installing things
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>are those the hiroshima trams?
17:16<@peter1138>people i play with are noobs anyway
17:16<@planetmaker>japanese? yeah
17:17<@planetmaker>peter1138, if you want to do freigth with trams, there's no way around heqs
17:17<@peter1138>Av9.8? :S
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>there was talk about a UK tram set, but i don't know if that was ever a thing
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>never heard of that
17:18<Supercheese>BATS has... issues
17:18<Supercheese>loading speeds for one are horribly broken
17:18<andythenorth>some of the sprites are being borrowed for Road Hog
17:18<Pikka>Av9.8 isn't a tram set, peter1138
17:19<andythenorth>it’s better than a tram set
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>flying trams?
17:19<andythenorth>have you deleted any more planes from it?
17:19<Supercheese>Eddi|zuHause: no, Airbuses
17:19<Pikka>it's down to 12 from the 60+ in Av8, I think I've probably removed enough.
17:20<andythenorth>I fricking love AV9.8
17:20<andythenorth>no tedious vehicle choices
17:20<andythenorth>‘choosing vehicles’ is seriously over-rated
17:21<Supercheese>done applying the Saint Exupéry expunge, eh?
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>you're certainly climbing on the open-ended V-scale of opposing opinions :p
17:23<Pikka>speaking of av9.8
17:23<Pikka>I must fly
17:23<Pikka>toodle pip
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17:24<Eddi|zuHause>"saint-exupéry" is the austerity of engineering. like in politics, austerity is not always the best way to approach a problem
17:25<Supercheese>Well, software engineering philosophy swings as a pendulum do...
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes when something exists that doesn't seem to have a purpose, it may a) have a purpose that you didn't find yet, or b) needs a purpose created for it
17:25-!-andythenorth_ [] has joined #openttd
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: sometimes when something exists that doesn't seem to have a purpose, it may a) have a purpose that you didn't find yet, or b) needs a purpose created for it
17:26*andythenorth_ considers upgrading states by date
17:26<andythenorth_>stats *
17:27<Supercheese>à la HEQS forklifts et al.?
17:27<@peter1138>andythenorth_, not possible
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17:27<Eddi|zuHause>didn't check the BAD FEATURES thread in a while?
17:27<@peter1138>well, build date... yuck :p
17:28<Supercheese>the BAD FEATURES thread is a BAD FORUM FEATURE
17:28<@peter1138>i gave you 65535 IDs to play with D:
17:28<@peter1138>and then you all end up deciding that no choice is better
17:28<Supercheese>thankfully, the Ignore User function is a GOOD FEATURE and helps
17:28<andythenorth_>although Iron Horse will end up using all the <16k IDs that are eligible for articulated vehicles
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i'm sorry i didn't max that out yet :p
17:29<andythenorth_>Eddi|zuHause: you must be close to the 16k?
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>nah, about 3k or so
17:29<andythenorth_>also apropos of ‘needs a purpose’ …. GS that rewards the most diverse use of vehicles?
17:30<@peter1138>metro rail can't have level crossings huh
17:30<andythenorth_>use every available vehicle, profitably
17:30<andythenorth_>peter1138: if you’re using FooBar’s grf, there’s a parameter
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: most metro systems try to avoid them
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17:31<argoneus>can anyone explain
17:31<andythenorth>I am +1 to no crossings on metros, stops the town building roads that get my buses destroyed by trains
17:32<@peter1138>pretty sure you can stop towns building level crossings completely anyway
17:32<andythenorth>oh yes
17:32<@peter1138>environment -> towns -> towns are allowed to build level crossings
17:32<andythenorth>how rare
17:32<argoneus>in nuts
17:33<argoneus>how do I upgrade from railway to monorail using purrs?
17:33<Supercheese>convert tool I presume
17:33<argoneus>do I need to replace all my tracks, then make new depots, and then replace them again?
17:33<Supercheese>fairly certain you can get away with just depots, send all trains to depot
17:33<@planetmaker>maybe there's universal rail
17:33<Supercheese>convert depot to purr
17:33<Supercheese>convert all tracks to new type, don't need to purr them
17:34<Supercheese>then convert trains and send them off
17:37<andythenorth>Road Hog buy menu doesn’t look so bad when split by tram / truck
17:37<@planetmaker>told ya ;)
17:38<andythenorth>maybe I don’t delete anything yet
17:38<andythenorth>35 years is a long time in game between vehicle generations
17:40<argoneus>wow what the fuck
17:40<argoneus>I don't understand NUTS
17:40<argoneus>can anyone explain what the numbers mean, 1/2/3?
17:41<argoneus>next to the engines
17:41<Supercheese>Gen1, Gen2
17:41<Supercheese>just a guess; I don't use NUTS
17:41<Supercheese>there ya go, docs
17:41<argoneus>yeah, I am reading that
17:41<argoneus>but I have 3 BASIC engines
17:42<argoneus>1, 2, and 3
17:42<argoneus>but there's no BASIC in the picture
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17:50<Sylf>they're just generations
17:50<Sylf>1st gen primitive engine, 2nd etc
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17:52<@peter1138>MB, please put your stuff on bananas :S
17:52<Sylf>that would be too good
17:53<argoneus>isn't this wrong? " I personally recommend to set the servicing interval for trains to days (off in percents) and setting the servicing interval value to 5 days. This makes sure that your trains will want to service just when you tell them to (given that 5 days passed since last autoreplace, but that is very short time in the game)."
17:53<argoneus>won't that mean they go to depot every time they can?
17:53<Sylf>you have to take that in context
17:54<andythenorth>should be RV speed limits in towns :P
17:54<Sylf>the author assumes you're playing with breakdowns off
17:54<@peter1138>andythenorth, patch it
17:54<Sylf>and servicing is off too
17:54<Supercheese>should be A Patch for That™ somewhere
17:54<argoneus>so if breakdowns are off, vehicles don't service?
17:54<andythenorth>peter1138: does it need a bit?
17:54<Supercheese>argoneus: there's a separate setting for that
17:54<andythenorth>or is it just a tile check?
17:54<Sylf>that's an option, argoneus
17:54<@peter1138>andythenorth, nfi
17:54<andythenorth>there’s a bit for city roads already?
17:55<andythenorth>shows the fancy trees and crap
17:55<argoneus>ohh, I see
17:55<argoneus>and autoreplacing vehicles makes vehicles go maintenance?
17:55<@peter1138>andythenorth, there's an owner, dunno if that's stored on the map
17:55<andythenorth>also it’s probably a terrible idea :P
17:55<@peter1138>andythenorth, yeah, cos small towns
17:55<__ln__>is this safe:
17:55<Supercheese>"Disable maintenance when breakdowns are set to none", and yes autoreplace sends to depot
17:55<andythenorth>also realism
17:55<andythenorth>also explaining
17:55<argoneus>ahh I see
17:55<@peter1138>andythenorth, check the town radius and be done
17:56<Supercheese>__ln__: he'll get a parking ticket, that's not a valid parking spot
17:56<andythenorth>airport town stuff is _never_ annoying :P
17:56<Supercheese>my local university makes nearly $300,000 a year in parking tickets, so the school paper claims
17:56<Supercheese>how that makes sense, I know not
17:56<andythenorth>what’s the opposite of speedy?
17:57<argoneus>oh nice
17:57<argoneus>with CHIPS you can design your stations however you want
17:57<argoneus>that's neat
17:57<andythenorth>yay, a satisfied customer
17:57<argoneus>seems tedious though
17:57<argoneus>sometimes I just like want to make station
17:57<andythenorth>it never lasts :(
17:57<Supercheese>CHIPS is indeed neat, but there are other sets out there that act similarly
17:58<andythenorth>argoneus: mostly I just pick the type of platform I want and build those
17:58<Supercheese>although none match FIRS industries as perfectly, of course
17:58<andythenorth>I don’t use the extra tiles except for station walking
17:58<Supercheese>I'll use CHIPS blank tiles for eyecandy at times
17:58<argoneus>Supercheese: IRS?
17:58<Supercheese>yes, I hear they're done by the same bloke ;)
17:59<andythenorth>I could just allow all RVs to go 80mph
17:59<Supercheese>well, FIRS, not your typo
17:59<Supercheese>if andy was responsible for the IRS..... ......
17:59<andythenorth>but low powered vehicles would never reach top speed
17:59<Sylf>still better than the current IRS
17:59<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE?
17:59<argoneus>are there any nice looking railroads that go well with NUTS?
17:59<argoneus>I'm sorry if this is a dumb question
18:00<Sylf>NUTS already has PURR built in
18:00<Supercheese>don't you have the set that has PURR already?
18:00<argoneus>but NUTS has some specific railroad types, right
18:00<@peter1138>good night
18:00<Sylf>but any rails can look nice too
18:00<argoneus>but the normal railroad
18:00<argoneus>looks normal
18:00<Sylf>swedish reals, CS rails
18:00<Supercheese>oh it is integral nevermind
18:00<argoneus>I can install any rails
18:00<argoneus>and it won't mess up PURRs?
18:00<Supercheese>NuTracks will complain about slots, but can be made to play nice
18:00<andythenorth>why is ‘max TE’ and ‘max reliability’ but just ‘speed’ ?
18:00<andythenorth>in buy menu
18:01<Supercheese>Hysterical raisins perhaps
18:01<andythenorth>speed is not constant
18:01<andythenorth>oh power was never a thing
18:01<andythenorth>RVs used to have minimal physics
18:01<Sylf>I thought vehicles went from 0 to 200km/h in an instant.
18:01<Sylf>Just like how they do the opposite at red lights in openttd
18:02<andythenorth>antonym for ‘speedy’: ‘plodding'
18:02*andythenorth writes code
18:06<argoneus>I was just reading the wiki
18:06<argoneus>and now I feel bad for asking V453etc what his favourite train set is
18:07<V453000>ETC :D
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18:07<argoneus>V453000: I didn't want to ping you
18:08<argoneus>didn't know you were monitoring
18:08<argoneus>what is this?
18:08<argoneus>the cool ground around the industry
18:09<Sylf>with lots of canal tiles
18:10<argoneus>and this
18:10<argoneus>are those PURRs or can you color monorails?
18:10<Sylf>those are PURR
18:10<argoneus>I'm seeing so many things I have never seen right now
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18:12<V453000>argoneus: how about some yetis
18:12<Sylf>V, which industry closed on you in yeti?
18:13<argoneus>do I smell advertising
18:13<V453000>plantation and cowpig farm
18:13*argoneus sniff sniff
18:14<argoneus>is that actual ingame graphics?
18:14<argoneus>i-it's not, right?
18:14<V453000>only one way to find out
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18:14<argoneus>closed the wrong tab
18:14<V453000>just get yeti from bananas and see for yourself if it is ingame or not :)
18:15<argoneus>are you a graphic designer?
18:15<argoneus>or what is your major
18:15<V453000>I usually answer this with "I make pictures"
18:15<V453000>but official thing is 3D artist yes
18:15<argoneus>oh, nice
18:16<argoneus>I guess ISR and FIRS don't work with yeti?
18:16<V453000>firs not that is industries
18:16<V453000>you cant have 2 industry sets together
18:17<argoneus>and ISR?
18:17<V453000>isr is stations, those sure do
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18:17<Supercheese>will be heavily pixelated in comparison, of course
18:17<Supercheese>at any higher zoom
18:17<argoneus>how does one install this
18:18<Supercheese>There is an acute lack of 32bpp stations; NML does not support stations...
18:18<Sylf>just like how you installed ISR or FIRS or CHIPS
18:18<argoneus>via content download :<
18:18<Sylf>YETI should be available
18:18<argoneus>I got the .tar.gz
18:18<argoneus>with a strange file
18:19<Sylf>you can install it too, if it's the wring tar.gz, but using the content downloader is easire and nicer
18:19<argoneus>I suppose I should use zbase with this?
18:20<Sylf>it's up to you.
18:20<V453000>oh god no
18:20<Sylf>I can't stand zbase ever, so I never use it.
18:20<argoneus>I have all these cute industries
18:20<V453000>there is nothing graphically worse than zbase
18:20<argoneus>and then pixels everywhere
18:21<V453000>just dont mind it :)
18:21<argoneus>do you somehow
18:21<argoneus>render 3d into 2d?
18:21<V453000>in other words, if you load zbase, ther wont be any extra details
18:21<Supercheese>what ELSE would he do??
18:21<V453000>every render is 2D image? :D
18:21<Supercheese>paint it by hand?
18:21<argoneus>fair point
18:22<argoneus>I meant that you can't see the industry from the other side in the game
18:22<argoneus>but you can in 3ds max or w/e
18:22<Supercheese>yeah, OTTD limitation
18:22<Sylf>meh. openttd thinks cowpig farm is a mine when naming a station...
18:22<V453000>yes because openttd loads the sprites, not 3D model
18:22<Supercheese>should just name stations directly after the industry name
18:22<argoneus>so it's 2.5D
18:23<V453000>it is 2D.
18:23<Sylf>it's 2d
18:23<Sylf>with 3d rendered sprites
18:23<V453000>you could have 837D software but you would still output 2D sprites for OpenTTD
18:24<Sylf>time travel and parallel world processing to render yeti?
18:25<argoneus>V453000: what is your software of choice?
18:26<argoneus>for 3D graphics
18:26<V453000>3ds max
18:26<argoneus>I never got into that :(
18:26<V453000>with one hotkey you can make 1 viewport
18:26<argoneus>it's like photoshop but not retard proof
18:26<V453000>you dont have to use any hotkeys :)
18:27<Supercheese>I agree the 3ds max user interface is... challenging
18:27<argoneus>my face when YETI actually lags my game
18:27<Supercheese>I'm sure it's nice when you know what you
18:27<Supercheese>are doing
18:27<argoneus>V453000: where did you study if I may ask?
18:27<argoneus>which uni
18:28<V453000>I didnt :)
18:28<argoneus>I asked what major you had and you said 3D graphics
18:28<V453000>Supercheese: blender is faaaar worse if you are trying to switch from other programs usually :P
18:28<V453000>major / job?
18:28<argoneus>why not both
18:29<V453000>because czech schools are useless at that
18:29<V453000>waste of time for a paper
18:30<argoneus>at 3d art or at being unis altogether?
18:30<V453000>at any kind of graphics probably
18:30<argoneus>isn't there a computer graphics at CVUT somewhere
18:31<Supercheese>blender is terrible too
18:31<argoneus>er, I mean CTU
18:31<V453000>sure, 3 years programming, then like 20 hours of learning 3D interface
18:31<V453000>well spent 5 years :P
18:31<argoneus>I went to study software engineering
18:31<Supercheese>the only 3D modeling program I can use is SolidWorks... :P
18:31<argoneus>and so far most what I did was math and logic
18:31<argoneus>which is totally useful, but I didn't find a use for it yet
18:32<argoneus>I'm still waiting, it will come
18:32<argoneus>I dunno
18:32<V453000>well, I am quite convinced that me learning things by doing things, reading books and video tutorials from good sources, is a lot more constructive than going to school
18:33<argoneus>I view uni as a sort of fail-safe to get a job, and it teaches you to be self sufficient and learn
18:33<V453000>not to mention that my love to school is so huge that I would not be able to finish it regardless
18:34<V453000>all the administration bullshit, spending infinite amount of time trying to figure out which subject I need to have in which semester etc, which is ULTRA messy on almost every czech university, idk if in the world it is similar
18:36<argoneus>I'm not having that problem so far
18:36<argoneus>I just go by the "recommended courses per semester"
18:36<V453000>could be just our wunderbar country
18:36<argoneus>(I study at CVUT)
18:36<argoneus>(I'm also czech)
18:36<V453000>ah cvut
18:36<V453000>cvut might be a bit better yes
18:36<argoneus>it's funny
18:36<V453000>I was at TUL in Liberec and Muni in Brno
18:37<argoneus>it's supposed to be IT-oriented
18:37<V453000>cant decide where was bigger mess
18:37<argoneus>(FIT CVUT)
18:37<argoneus>but the website and the web apps are shit
18:37<V453000>Muni had everything working properly, but there was so much of everything, that you couldnt orientate in it for shit
18:37<V453000>and then TUL, nothing works, everything is mess, nobody knows, teachers dont know, e-system doesnt know
18:38<argoneus>well, I am not familiar with other unis
18:38<argoneus>only VSE in prague
18:38<argoneus>and that's kinda casual
18:38<argoneus>or maybe I am just biased
18:38<V453000>well I am not saying universities are a bad idea, but just for my job it is not very useful
18:38<argoneus>but I know that from everyone I know, the dumb people and the people that didn't want to work, they went to VSE
18:39<V453000>I totally understand that anybody with technical or other specialization needs a college degree
18:39<argoneus>for some reason we frown at art students
18:39<argoneus>so at least I can't frown at you
18:39<argoneus>I guess it's because
18:39<argoneus>there's not that much to art at an academic level?
18:39<argoneus>as in, you have to figure out most things yourself?
18:39<argoneus>not sure
18:40<V453000>not exactly
18:40<V453000>vast majority of e.g. drawing must be learned
18:40<V453000>of course you have to do it yourself but you do need a lot of theory etc
18:40<argoneus>i always thought drawing was 99% practice 1% theory
18:40<V453000>the problem in cz is that artists are """artists""" everything has to be super very mega "artistic"
18:41<argoneus>oh I know what you mean
18:41<argoneus>"it looks too bland, it must be artistic!"
18:41<V453000>well yeah something along those lines
18:42<V453000>if it is broken, declare it art
18:42<argoneus>like that library that was supposed to look like a snot
18:42<V453000>my colleague at work once completely fucked up camera animation and had the main animating building hidden behind a tree during the time of animation
18:43<V453000>justified with "the best artists can hide content as mystery"
18:43<argoneus>oh dear
18:43<argoneus>I kind of envy you in a way
18:43<argoneus>you already do what you like and get better at it
18:43<argoneus>I still need to get tons of things punched into my head
18:43<argoneus>even though I might not ever need most of it
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18:43<V453000>well, in your case you probably have a clear goal like finishing school
18:43<V453000>which for me doesnt exist
18:43<V453000>it never ends
18:44<V453000>take it this way? :p
18:44<Pikkaphone>this is the song which never ends...
18:44<argoneus>well, I suppose
18:44<argoneus>but school is kind of.. duh
18:44<argoneus>I don't really like the academics that much
18:44<argoneus>I mean, I work part time along with school
18:45<V453000>sure, yes
18:45<Pikkaphone>hmm, I'm actually not on the wifi... I'll probably get disconnected when I connect.
18:45<argoneus>and at work I can just get up and get something to drink or eat whenever I want, no one pretends to be superior to me, no one tries to tell me how bad my work is and how I'll get a bad grade
18:45<argoneus>at school I just need to listen to one guy who thinks his course is the most important thing in the world
18:45<argoneus>or even worse, he himself thinks it's stupid and makes jokes about it
18:45<V453000>for example, I work as 3D person in a building project company ... the engineers just make a degree and then do the same thing for 30 years, then die
18:46<argoneus>by the way
18:46<Pikkaphone>argoneus:if people care more about what you do at school than at work. .. I'm not sure which is worse. :)
18:46<argoneus>do you need to be able to draw to do proper 3d graphics?
18:47<V453000>yes and no
18:47<argoneus>I mean
18:47<V453000>you dont need to be able to draw to simply create stuff
18:47<argoneus>drawing is a lot about understanding perspective, shading, shapes, etc
18:47<V453000>but it helps a lot when you are imagining what to create
18:47<argoneus>but in 3ds max you see all those
18:47<argoneus>(that's what I thought at least)
18:47<V453000>yes, which is true big time
18:47<V453000>but still making sketches helps modeling more than you might imagine
18:47<argoneus>so if you are able to draw
18:47<argoneus>modelling things is much less trial & error
18:47<V453000>or just putting the things together in your head
18:47<argoneus>and much more actual progress?
18:48<V453000>I would say it differently
18:48<V453000>if you can draw, you can make a good sketch and then you just model it
18:48<Pikkaphone>you don't have to be able to draw *well*
18:48<V453000>if you cant like me, then you just model and invent it on the fly
18:49<V453000>well yeah you dont have to do anything :P but it helps at least to some degree
18:49<V453000>it depedns what are you doing, too
18:49<Pikkaphone>sketching is good
18:49<argoneus>I like how no artist is good at drawing
18:49<V453000>if you model e.g. cars, then meh, take picture, model, done
18:49<V453000>if you model your own characters, it is a must
18:50<argoneus>as in
18:50<Pikkaphone>pretty sketching will make you more employable :p
18:50<argoneus>artists always seem to hate their own work, and they seem to love criticizing work of others
18:50<argoneus>at least from what I've seen
18:50<argoneus>then again I don't move much about people who can draw more than a stick figure
18:51<Pikkaphone>V likes criticizing others
18:51<argoneus>V453000: so you do 3D art for a living?
18:51<Pikkaphone>he's a big meanie
18:51<V453000>yes I do
18:51<V453000>on both accounts
18:51<argoneus>what do you like, even do? is it architect-ish?
18:51<argoneus>or what do you model in practice
18:51<V453000>as the main thing, we do 3D visualization of buildings, roads, tracks, ...
18:52<argoneus>so you are the company that makes those models of how a new shopping center could look?
18:52<V453000>but we also do video related things, photo related things, printing, shooting video, ...
18:52<V453000>yeah, but usually our company also creates the project
18:52<argoneus>oh, so you have architects etc as well?
18:52<V453000>the 3D visualization is Usually just an addition to the project so the people can present it
18:53<argoneus>we two aren't that different then
18:53<argoneus>you are told "make this", I am told "make this"
18:53<V453000>everybody is told make this :D
18:53<argoneus>all this web 2.0
18:53<argoneus>I just want to navigate the website, not click tiles
18:54<V453000>you navigate by clicking tiles? :D
18:54<argoneus>that sounds like something out of a chinese cartoon
18:54<V453000>well iz not :D
18:56<argoneus>I still envy you :D
18:56<V453000>not that much to envy
18:56<argoneus>I wish I had motivation to work on personal projects and make my openttd AI finally etc
18:56<V453000>people usually dont realize that graphics are just hard work :)
18:56<argoneus>I usually just come home energyless and don't want to do anything
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18:58<argoneus>or rather
18:58<argoneus>I am always like "when I come home I'll implement pathfinding for my AI"
18:58<argoneus>and then I go to school, do math and programming, then to work, program some more, then come home "fuck this"
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18:59<argoneus>I believe you completely when you say doing graphics is not easy
18:59<argoneus>anyway, good night, and sorry for shitting up this channel with my life stories :D
19:01<V453000>gnight :)
19:01<argoneus>do you own openttdcoop too?
19:02<argoneus>just how many things are you involved in ._.
19:02<argoneus>I swear, if you invade my dreams too...
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19:05<Sylf>he doesn't own it. he's just a big part of it.
19:07<V453000>:d lol
19:07<V453000>no I dont own anything
19:09<V453000>I just wreck shit when I build
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19:10<argoneus>I wish I was as good at making trains :<
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19:11<V453000>again just a matter of time to learn :)
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