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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-24

---Logopened Wed Sep 24 00:00:23 2014
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01:43<Supercheese>Hmm, "Eine Königin unter den Bieren", although I'm not sure I've gotten the capitals correct as its in allcaps on the bottle
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01:56<@planetmaker>capitalization is correct. But König*in*?
02:09<Supercheese>S'what's on the bottle
02:10<Supercheese>where the S sort of looks like an f
02:12<@planetmaker>ah, hm. there's an alternative way to write a (small) s. The ancient way
02:12<@planetmaker>the f has the - through it while the s has not
02:13<Supercheese>I guess there already was a King of Beers so they went for the alternative
02:14<@planetmaker>there is, yes. König Pilsener :)
02:20<Supercheese>Well, it's pretty darn good, especially at $2 per bottle
02:20<@planetmaker>2$? wow
02:20<@planetmaker>1€ :P
02:20<Supercheese>no wait
02:20<@planetmaker>but yes, it's ok :)
02:20<Supercheese>$1 my bad
02:20<Supercheese>my math is poor after beer :P
02:21<@planetmaker>haha :)
02:22<Supercheese>hmm, thought there were 12 in the case, but 'twas 24
02:23<Supercheese>lucky me
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03:03<andythenorth>so roadtypes
03:04*Supercheese would like them
03:10<andythenorth>they’re not as good as you’d think
03:10<andythenorth>because they need to be able to share tiles
03:10<andythenorth>which makes them largely pointless afaict
03:11<andythenorth>imagine a dirt roads type, on which ‘highway’ vehicles are banned
03:12<andythenorth>but to have dirt road-highway crossings, ‘highway’ vehicles would need to be compatible with dirt roads
03:13<@planetmaker>not necessarily. Those tiles would just have two road types
03:14<b_jonas>wouldn't you just have two or three levels of road such that road vehicles can go on any but some vehicles can go faster on highways?
03:14<b_jonas>eg. the same truck would go 50 km/h on dirt roads and 80 km/h on a highway
03:15<@planetmaker>b_jonas, yes. And now look at the plethora of railtypes where one could assume something similar :)
03:16<@planetmaker>and trams are 'roads', too
03:16<Supercheese>I presume similar compatibility/poweredness lists would exist for theoretical RoadTypes as they currently do for RailTypes
03:16<Supercheese>e.g. "can run on X but is not powered"
03:16<b_jonas>but then everyone would just build the highways all the time
03:16<@planetmaker>towns can grow on real roads but not on tramways
03:16<Supercheese>although hmm
03:16<Supercheese>all consists are fixed
03:16<b_jonas>unless the highways have more limitations, like they're always one-way and can have no crossings
03:17<b_jonas>but than that could be done automatically, eg. make road vehicles go faster on long segments of one-way roads without crossings?
03:17<@planetmaker>b_jonas, yes. And everyone always builds universal railway. That's not an issue
03:17<Supercheese>yeah, multiple type coexistence on a single type would be required
03:17<Supercheese>Highway+Tram Tracks+Elevated Rails+etc.
03:17<b_jonas>though you'd somehow have to arrange it can at least contain turns
03:17<Supercheese>it would likely oversaturate the map bits
03:18<b_jonas>Supercheese: and a subway right under it too
03:18<@planetmaker>we just gained 8 additional bits :P
03:18<Supercheese>would be quite taxing on the available tile storage I presume
03:19<b_jonas>plus a universal pass-through station for subway+bus+tram+truck+elevated
03:20<Supercheese>Hmm, I'd have to rename my grf if RoadTypes ever come out
03:20<andythenorth>my conclusion is that I need to delete things like the mining trucks from Road Hog
03:20<andythenorth>they don’t fit
03:21<Supercheese>the kind of trucks that would take up 3 lanes on the highway?
03:21<Supercheese>tires taller than you, etc.
03:22<andythenorth>the ones from HEQS
03:22<andythenorth>were going to be in Road Hog
03:23<andythenorth>but they have no purpose
03:23<Supercheese>other than eyecandy, although that's sort of synonymous with 'no purpose'
03:23<andythenorth>no purpose
03:25<andythenorth>more than just eye candy choice though
03:25<b_jonas>so really, what would happen if road vehicles could just set a separate higher speed for one-way roads? of course, then the route planner might have to be changed too.
03:25<andythenorth>mining trucks have different stats to on-highway dump trucks
03:25<b_jonas>(plus maybe you need highway type of graphics for one-way roads)
03:25<andythenorth>which have to be in the set
03:25<andythenorth>but choosing between different stats is boring
03:25<b_jonas>hmm, no, that's not enough
03:25<b_jonas>you'd have to make the high speed work only on long spans of road with no crossings
03:26<Supercheese>Long stretches of road are a disaster anyway because they can't be diagonal
03:26<Supercheese>you end up canning it and building rails
03:27<Supercheese>roads are really short-distance only in OTTD
03:27<Supercheese>or intracity
03:28<Supercheese>I suppose you could go for one of those long and thin maps rather than a square one
03:28<Supercheese>avoid diagonals
03:30<andythenorth>maybe the dump trucks are the problem
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03:55<argoneus>why is autopilot written in tcl? ._.
03:55<argoneus>I haven't even heard of that language
03:57<@planetmaker>don't use autopilot or ap+, use supybot with soap plug-in
04:01<argoneus>I'm tempted to try making my own
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04:06<argoneus>like a suite for web status / web control / irc bot / admin lib
04:06<argoneus>all in one
04:06<argoneus>but I guess that's been done before?
04:09<@planetmaker>or maybe. But then those people kept those tools for themselves
04:09<@planetmaker>So that no other server could (easily) compete with them
04:09<Xaroth|Work>there's a generic lib i made in python that soap uses
04:09<Xaroth|Work>you can use that for any python-based tool
04:09<@planetmaker>Possibly with an excuse like "my code is too ugly"
04:09<Xaroth|Work>be it web status, web control or admin
04:10<@planetmaker>Xaroth, re-inventing the wheel is so much more fun :P
04:10<@planetmaker>So many mistakes can be made anew :P
04:10<Xaroth|Work>true that
04:15<argoneus>1, it could be a whole suite, not just assembled parts
04:15<argoneus>2, it could be a nice learning experience
04:15<argoneus>3, it would be reinventing the wheel but that's part of learning new things
04:15<argoneus>sometimes it's good to make the same mistakes someone before me has done
04:15<argoneus>if it's not a commercial project
04:15<argoneus>at least that's what I think
04:16<argoneus>planetmaker: so basically
04:16<argoneus>if I made something like that, and it turned out not to be shit, and it was opensource, do you think there would be any demand for it other than me?
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04:18<@planetmaker>I would believe so, yes
04:18<@planetmaker>license it agpl and people who use it must also publish their modifications, if they run it on their server :)
04:19<argoneus>what is agpl again?
04:19<argoneus>I only used GPL ever
04:19<argoneus>I know lgpl and gpl, but not agpl
04:19*argoneus looks it up
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04:21<argoneus>oh, it's gpl for websites
04:21<@planetmaker>yeah. basically tailored for web services
04:22<andythenorth>I don’t know why, but I find the aGPL a bit more dubious
04:22<andythenorth>there’s some reason it’s a bit hokey, but I can’t remember what
04:23<andythenorth>maybe it’s because affero version is not GPL 3 compatible
04:23<andythenorth>or some other tedious legal thing
04:23<@planetmaker>is it not?
04:23<andythenorth>might be FUD
04:23<andythenorth>anyway, /me back to work
04:23<@planetmaker>but I guess it might not be
04:35<argoneus>does autopilot/soap even work on windows?
04:35<argoneus>I am just wondering if there are any people that actually have their servers on windows
04:36<@planetmaker>ap+ is known to bitch with windows, I know of several attempts, none successful. Soap uses python, so I see no issue
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04:47<argoneus>um, is there a place where I can find documentation for the admin network enums? such as ADMIN_UPDATE_CLIENT_INFO
04:47<argoneus>the doc on wiki only says which ones are sent when
04:47<argoneus>but not what they contain
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04:51<@planetmaker>openttd's source code, maybe its doxygen documentation, and xaroth's libottdadmin2. And maybe dih's joan java library for it
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04:51<argoneus>oh, alright
04:52<@planetmaker>might have. It's the doxygen output
04:53<@planetmaker>but you should decide whether you want to write really a new library or want to make use of an existing library :)
04:54<argoneus>well, I want to figure out how it works
04:55<argoneus>networking has always been a black box for me :<
05:06<@peter1138>variety distribution is shit, anyone done a replacement for it?
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>especially for non-square maps
05:18<liq3>argoneus: look at the source code where that ENUM is used?
05:20<argoneus>liq3: but the client doesn't send ADMIN_ packets, no?
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>the admin port is not involved in gameplay at all
05:22<liq3>there's no server source code?
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>the admin port can be used to connect 3rd party tools like a webpage where you output stats
05:24<argoneus>this will take a lot of figuring things out
05:24<@planetmaker>liq3, server and client share all the source code
05:25<@planetmaker>just different parts are used, depending on whether a particular instance is used as single player, or in MP as client or as server
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05:25<argoneus>so the idea is
05:26<argoneus>that my program will send a properly structured packet to the server admin port, which is listening, and it will send a specifically structured response packet
05:27<@planetmaker>an admin port client needs to register with the openttd server and tell it which types of packages it wants to receive. Those will then be sent to the admin port client
05:27<argoneus>then all I need to figure out is what kind of packets the server deals with, I guess :<
05:27<argoneus>when I looked in the source code
05:27<@planetmaker>there can also be several admin port clients concurrently connected to the same openttd server. Each serving a different purpose, for instance
05:27<argoneus>all I found was a .h file with enums with comments what they mean
05:28<argoneus>but no description of how the data shoud look like
05:28<argoneus>I suppose I need to figure that out by myself by looking how the server reads the packets?
05:28<argoneus>and send them in the same manner?
05:28<argoneus>or is there actual doc for thi
05:29<@planetmaker>somewhere in the networking code. It's UDP packages and their structure surely is described somewhere
05:30<argoneus>...UDP? the wiki says TCP ._.
05:30<@planetmaker>maybe TCP then. I thought it uses UDP for it
05:30<@planetmaker>see. I know as much as you about the networking code :P
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05:35<@peter1138>packet != package
05:35<argoneus>I've never heard package in networking context
05:37<@peter1138>it's a translation thing
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>i've always thought of these as translation artefacts and assumed they mean the same thing
05:38<@peter1138>some of these guys don't english good ;)
05:39<argoneus>that's rude
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe the english are bad at teaching? :p
05:48<argoneus>looking at libottdadmin2 it;s not that difficult
05:48<argoneus>but there's a lot of magic numbers and strings that I don't know where to find
05:48<argoneus>are you guys sure the networking part is documented?
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05:54<argoneus>oo, found it
05:54<argoneus>it even says what parameters it has
05:58<@peter1138>binary protocol ftw?
05:59<@peter1138>bah, it crashed :(
06:04<@peter1138>bah, fish never got start dates :(
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06:05<argoneus>fucking cryptic C++ source code
06:07<argoneus>this source code is not making any sense
06:08<argoneus>it receives a packet, HandlePacket() passes it to the appropriate function, and that function.... receives an invalid packet?
06:09<argoneus>or am I missing something important?
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06:17<blathijs>argoneus: Perhaps the method is overwritten in a subclass?
06:26<Xaroth|Work>argoneus: if i can make libottdadmin2, understanding the packet code isn't -that- hard :P
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06:28<argoneus>Xaroth|Work: your lib is quite robust though
06:28<argoneus>I'm much worse than you
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06:35<Xaroth|Work>argoneus: then use libottdadmin ? :) :)
06:36<argoneus>but this looks like a really nice real world problem
06:36<argoneus>I might use your lib after my shitty lib works somewhat
06:37<argoneus>Xaroth|Work: did you figure it out by reading ottd source code and doc?
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07:10<argoneus>oh I figured it out
07:10<argoneus>it was subclassed as blathijs said
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07:40<Xaroth|Work>argoneus: mostly, yes
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07:51<Eddi|zuHause>it's certainly getting annoying
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11:03<Wolf01>hi hi
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11:24<andythenorth>it bends?
11:24<andythenorth>where is bird?
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>in the air?
11:29<andythenorth>he’s in pineapple land
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11:38<andythenorth>now we just need pikka
11:39<DanMacK>lol no kidding
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11:40<argoneus>is PikkaBird Pikka?
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>wait... the two of you in the same channel at the same time? THE WORLD WILL IMPLODE
11:40<argoneus>and PikkaChoo
11:40<argoneus>all at the same time?
11:41<andythenorth>also PikkaPhone
11:41<andythenorth>and Pikka2
11:41<andythenorth>and Pokka
11:41<andythenorth>you get the idea...
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11:41<Eddi|zuHause>except when it's not...
11:41<andythenorth>pikka is not Alberth
11:42<@Alberth>indeed, never visited the down under land so far
11:43<@Alberth>Alberth is also not andythenorth
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>and not DorpsGek either
11:44<@Alberth>that's long term goal, but it's not working very well so far
11:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause is not frosch123
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11:44<andythenorth>nor ATS6
11:45<@Alberth>o/ all unique persons!
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>but ATS63 is peter
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to the theory that everybody is the same 7 people over and over?
11:47<andythenorth>did we name 7 yet?
11:48<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: __ln__: i have a task for you :) both "etwas klaglos akzeptieren" and "etwas sang- und klanglos akzeptieren" are valid terms. what about "etwas klanglos akzeptieren"? does one relate to the other?
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds wrong
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>usually it's "sang- und klanglos untergehen", though
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>thus i might already be arguing with the premise of "valid term"
11:50<argoneus>so P.+k{,2}a.*
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11:50<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: no, it's always two 'k'
11:51<argoneus>^P.kka.*$ ?
11:51<argoneus>\S* rather
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12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26915 /trunk/src/script/api (script_company.hpp script_town.hpp) (2014-09-24 16:45:20 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Fix: API docs
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12:55<Eddi|zuHause>env x='() { :;}; echo vulnerable' bash -c "echo test"
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13:19<argoneus>is the windows .cfg identical to the linux one? minus line endings
13:19<argoneus>I want to configure my server on windows and then just scp it onto my vps
13:20<@Alberth>if you use / for directory separators in newgrf settings
13:20<+glx>and no full pahts
13:20<@Alberth>yeah c:/program files/.... :D
13:20<argoneus>oh fuk
13:20<argoneus>it uses \
13:20<argoneus>well I can just edit that I guess
13:21<@Alberth>sed -e 's/\\/\//' < config_windows.cfg > config_unix.cfg :p
13:21<@Alberth>hmm, needs a /g :)
13:22<argoneus>it only occurs once per line max
13:22<argoneus>or wait
13:22<argoneus>does sed go line by line
13:23<+glx>sed goes line by line but you can have multiple \ on one line
13:23<argoneus>I don't think I do
13:23<argoneus>oh I do, in one case
13:24<@Alberth>oh, uppercase vs lowercase file names may also cause trouble
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>itSn not about what you have right now, it's about what you CAN have
13:24<+glx>and yes linux is picky about filename case ;)
13:24<argoneus>god dammit
13:24<argoneus>so many things would be easier
13:24<argoneus>if my desktop was linux
13:24<argoneus>and not shitdos
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>there's an easy fix for that
13:25<argoneus>b-but muh videogames
13:26<@Alberth>the question is, is that time with non-openttd games worth the bother all the other time :p
13:27<argoneus>half of my steam library would become void :(
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13:28<argoneus>it's like walling off half of my flat's rooms to get working heating in one room
13:28<@Alberth>you don't have to convince me :p
13:29<+glx>VM can be a solution
13:29<argoneus>but VM doesn't have graphics acceleration
13:29<argoneus>or does it?
13:30<+glx>not really needed to configure openttd ;)
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>wine is pretty good nowadays
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13:37<fjb>Quak Eddi|zuHause
13:39<fjb>Quak frosch123
13:40<frosch123>i found some old files
13:40<frosch123>i think 1990-11-18 is when i started learning programming :p
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>man i have plenty of those :p
13:40<fjb>Quak LordAro
13:40<LordAro>o/ fjb
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>unfortunately, on some diskettes, which i don't have a drive for anymore
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>one of the first programs i wrote displayed the message "Loading..." with some forced delay :p
13:43<frosch123>apparently there was no "delay" in gwbasic, instead i learned to do a loop from 1 to 100 to compute some sinus :p
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>my first programs were in dbase
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>aside from some .bat
13:45<fjb>I remember I learned programming in 1985, but I don't know it that disks are still readable.
13:45<Eddi|zuHause> East Explained.jpg
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26916 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-09-24 17:45:37 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 13 changes by mulderpf
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 24 changes by juanjo
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 3 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
13:47<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: sounds accurate
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13:53<fjb>So true.
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13:55<frosch123>i like those quiz gwbasic programs, where you have to type the answer to a question
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya... the USA have a long track record of invading countries and then leaving them with destabilizing anarchy
13:56<frosch123>but with the spelling skills of a 8 year old
13:56<frosch123>otherwise it's wrong :p
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>looking back, it's a miracle that '45 didn't end even worse :p
13:58<fjb>They had a plan for the future back then.
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure they have loads of plans...
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>not all plans actually work out
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>they also had a plan to completely deindustrialize germany back then
13:59<fjb>But throwing nuclear bombs wasn't a good idea back then either.
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>until they realized that they couldn't feed 80 million people on that level of technology
14:00<frosch123>hmm, i forgot... did us also enter ww1? or was ww2 the first one "abroad"?
14:00<fjb>They did.
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>they did, but rather late
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>US was rather isolationist before that
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>until they started with this "league of nations" idea
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>before that, they only had issues with themselves and neighbouring countries
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>namely mexico and canada
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>in the war against mexico they got texas, and in the war against canada they didn't accomplish much, except for getting the white house burned down
14:06<fjb>That's something, isn't it?
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14:28<Supercheese>there was the whole Monroe Doctrine though
14:29<Supercheese>not very isolationist really
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>that was more like "if they step in our backyard"?
14:31<argoneus>is there a major difference between AV8 and AV9?
14:31<argoneus>the airplane newgrf
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14:34<Supercheese>Av9 has a smaller roster
14:34<Supercheese>SE strikes again
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>with the difference that airplanes really don't have a lot of ways to be different
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15:38<argoneus>if I have a nice map in singleplayer
15:38<argoneus>is there a way to transfer that map into multiplayer?
15:38<argoneus>like, not the save
15:38<argoneus>just the layout etc
15:42<frosch123>you can load the save in multiplayer
15:42<frosch123>if it is a generated map you can type "restart" in console, to start the same map again
15:42<frosch123>finally, you can also save as heightmap, to only take the same landscape shape, but add other newgrfs
15:54<argoneus>is there an easy way to load heightmaps with dediserv?
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15:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably easier to transfer a savegame
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise, openttd -h
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16:29<argoneus>so basically
16:29<argoneus>I make heightmap and savegame from it on my pc
16:29<argoneus>and then transfer to server
16:29<frosch123>transfering a save from a gui client to the server is generally the easiest method for configuring a game
16:30<argoneus>oh, right
16:30<argoneus>the savegame carries serverside settings, right?
16:30<frosch123>yes, all settings and add-ons
16:31<frosch123>(that is: md5sum references to the add-ons)
16:31<frosch123>(not the add-ons themself)
16:31<argoneus>if I load a savegame in 1960 with starting in 1950
16:31<argoneus>and type restart into the console
16:31<argoneus>it will go back to 1950 or back to the savefile?
16:32<frosch123>"restart" means regenerating the map with the same settings
16:32<argoneus>oh, nice
16:32<argoneus>time to make a nice heightmap
16:32<frosch123>as long as the map generation (i.e. major ottd versions) did not change, the map will be the same
16:33<frosch123>"restart" only works for generated maps, not for heightmaps
16:33<frosch123>heightmaps you have to load as heightmaps :)
16:33<argoneus>I can't save a heightmap as a savegame
16:33<argoneus>and laod that normally?
16:33<frosch123>sure, but you cannot use "restart" on that save
16:33<frosch123>insteadof you have to reload the original save
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16:55<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26917 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2014-09-24 20:55:47 UTC)
16:55<@DorpsGek>-Revert (r26857): It broke improved loading.
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16:56<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26918 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2014-09-24 20:56:52 UTC)
16:56<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6110]: Reserve cargo only after unloading finished or if the vehicle has the desired cargo already
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17:07<andythenorth>bed bed bed
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17:08<Wolf01>me too
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18:01<argoneus>is there a way to mass download all required content?
18:01<argoneus>like if I make a savegame on my computer, and then try loading it with dedi, but it needs some newgrf
18:01<argoneus>do I need to get those one by one?
18:02<+glx>dedicated server refuses to load if there's missing grf IIRC
18:04<argoneus>so I need to manually download them one by one?
18:04<+glx>you can just transfer them from your local machine :)
18:04<+glx>like you do for config and savegame
18:04<argoneus>oh, right
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18:21<argoneus>this is weird
18:21<argoneus>I just loaded a savefile
18:21<argoneus>wrote restart
18:21<argoneus>but the map is different
18:25<@planetmaker>different OpenTTD version
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18:26<@planetmaker>restarts tells it to re-use the settings and the random seed. Results will be different, if the algorithm differs. That might be different, if OpenTTD is changed
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18:27<argoneus>but the version is same
18:27<argoneus>one is windows one is linux though
18:27<+glx>same settings ?
18:27<argoneus>I thought those were in save?
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18:29<argoneus>I'll try with identical settings tomorrow
18:29<argoneus>I have to go now, nn and thanks
18:32<argoneus>but yeah
18:33<argoneus>I am using 1.4.3 on windows and linux, with same newgrfs and same terrain generation settings
18:33<argoneus>not sure what else influences it
18:35<Sylf>if you tried to load a save game on dedicated server but the game looks different, it means the server failed to load the game
18:35<Sylf>possible because of missing newgrf
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19:27<Eddi|zuHause>really i advise you to do all this on the client, and then transfer the savegame to the server when you've confirmed it's done properly
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>also, the version must be the same as the one that originally started the savegame, not necessarily the one you played it with
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 25 00:00:19 2014