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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-25

---Logopened Thu Sep 25 00:00:19 2014
---Daychanged Thu Sep 25 2014
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00:15<Supercheese>Hmm, the tooltip for the button to begin autoreplacement bugs me
00:15<Supercheese>"Press to begin replacement of the left selected engine type with the right selected engine type"
00:16<Supercheese>The problem is it always says "engine type" even when replacing ships and airplanes...
00:16<Supercheese>which aren't really referred to as "engines"
00:16<Supercheese>I'd like to see it say "vehicle type"
00:16<Supercheese>STR_REPLACE_HELP_START_BUTTON for reference
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01:11<Sylf>vehicle type works too when you're replacing unpowered wagons
01:12<V453000>huge problem :-D
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01:15<Supercheese>Well, I find these very minor issues when translating
01:15<Supercheese>that reminds me of another problem...
01:17<V453000>solution dont translate =D
01:18<Supercheese>at least they're all easy fixes
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03:01<Supercheese>Yes, finally an accusative supine
03:01<Supercheese>been wanting to use one
03:02<@planetmaker>when is it used?
03:04<Supercheese>Chiefly in clauses that show a purpose of an action, "Something is heading for ___"
03:05<Supercheese>In this case, "Heading for maintenance" -> "Iens ministratum"
03:05<@planetmaker>ah. Funky :)
03:05<Supercheese>my textbook exemplar was, "Eo ambulatum" -> "I am going for a walk"
03:06<Supercheese>or "going to walk"
03:07<Supercheese>On the subject of grammar:
03:08<Supercheese>the remains of a copypasta defect, I presume
03:14<Supercheese>although hmm now that I think about it the supine may be too active and not passive enough, blerg
03:16<Supercheese>need a deponent verb
03:18<@planetmaker>those are subtleties which elude my crude latin knowledge, I guess :D
03:20<Supercheese>yeah, the lack of a progressive case in Latin requires more finesse in translation
03:21<Supercheese>well, among other things :P
03:21<@planetmaker>hehe :)
03:22<@peter1138>Just change the first to be singular
03:22<@peter1138>Whenever weight...
03:22<@peter1138>Whenever power is
03:22<Supercheese>Yes, forcing everything singular is one route
03:23<@peter1138>a vehicle's power is very odd to have
03:23<Supercheese>alternatively, force everything plural, take your pick
03:23<@planetmaker>singular sounds better in some cases (like with power). And never hurts in those where it's currently plural. IMHO
03:23<@peter1138>i think the whole thing sounds crap
03:23<Supercheese>Well, I suppose there could be other powers, perhaps from the power plant
03:24<Supercheese>although not in the default industries
03:24<@peter1138>Whenever ... , do this
03:24<@peter1138>is quite a horrible phrasing :p
03:24<@planetmaker>power is rather uncountable
03:24<Supercheese>Well, I suspect the majority of the Advanced Settings help texts were written rather quickly, since they did not exist for a long time and then suddenly all materialized
03:25<Supercheese>although these units were added later on
03:25*Supercheese wonders when the helptexts showed up first, digs logs
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03:25<@peter1138>Show volume in the selected unit
03:25<@peter1138>Show andythenorth in the selected unit
03:26<andythenorth>select peter1138 in the unit shown
03:26<Supercheese>Units of... hmm
03:28<Supercheese>@commit 24235
03:28<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: Commit by alberth :: r24235 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2012-05-12 10:09:56 UTC)
03:28<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: -Add: Add help-strings for the settings in the advanced settings window.
03:28*Supercheese found it
03:29<Supercheese>although units only showed up in:
03:29<Supercheese>@commit 25508
03:29<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: Commit by rubidium :: r25508 /trunk/src (9 files in 4 dirs) (2013-06-29 09:47:18 UTC)
03:29<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: -Change: split unit localisation choice into a choice per type of unit, and move it to the advanced settings
03:29<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: -Feature [FS#5482]: have tractive effort in imperial (lbf) and metric (kgf) units
03:29<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: -Feature: have weights and volumes in imperial units (short tons, gallons)
03:34<andythenorth>none of those commits add roadtypes
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03:51<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause2: Sylf well, I made a savegame on my windows 1.4.3 client, then copied it along with the newgrfs to my server, then ran server, loaded the save, worked fine so far, but when I did restart I got a slightly different map, it waws similar, but some places were different, cities appeared in the middle of water etc
03:52<Sylf>you restarted? not reload the map?
03:52<argoneus>I wrote "restart" into the console
03:53<Sylf>that generates a new map
03:53<argoneus>but I thought the map has the same seed and settings as the savegame?
03:54<argoneus>restart game Restart the same game.
03:54<Sylf>same seed, yes, but it will still has new randomness
03:54<argoneus>how can I reload a savegame from 1956 in 1950 then
03:54<argoneus>or I can't?
03:54<Sylf>if you want the exact same map over and over, just reload the map
03:54<argoneus>reload as in load it again with the same date?
03:55<Sylf>the original save game never changes
03:55<Supercheese>if you don't have the original save...
03:55<Supercheese>well, you may be out of luck
03:56<argoneus>so I should probably just like
03:56<argoneus>pause immediately when game starts
03:56<argoneus>and then save
03:56<@peter1138>technically if it's the same seed then it should be completely the same
03:56<Sylf>If you copied the file to the server once, that file on the server stays
03:56<Sylf>won't it?
03:56<@peter1138>08:54 < Sylf> same seed, yes, but it will still has new randomness
03:56<Sylf>or are you writing over that file?
03:56<@peter1138>that actually makes no sense
03:56<@peter1138>that's like... it's the same seed, but the seed is different
03:57<Sylf>I've tried to regenerate maps with same seed and came out differently in the past
03:57<Sylf>they look similar - where the water is etc
03:57<Sylf>but not the same
03:57<@peter1138>landscape is probably the same
03:57<@peter1138>but towns and industries different?
03:58<argoneus>I had even landscape changes
03:58<argoneus>there was a natural bridge from one island to another
03:58<argoneus>and in the restarted map it was much narrower
03:58<Sylf>landscape is similar, but not exactly the same
03:59<@peter1138>i'm doing "restart" and it's exactly the same
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04:00<V453000>whenever I tried, same seed also gave exactly the same map
04:00*argoneus shrugs
04:00<V453000>it didnt do quite that with some ancient saves
04:00<argoneus>I can try sending you guys my save
04:00<argoneus>and you try restarting it?
04:00<argoneus>because on my linux server it gives different results
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04:01<@peter1138>was the save made with the same version?
04:01<Supercheese>what version are you using? 1.4.3?
04:01<@peter1138>does loading a save even set the seed?
04:01<@peter1138>i don't think it does
04:01<V453000>just restart with a different map :)
04:01<Supercheese>and yes, what version(s) have you been using
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04:03<Sylf>wrong window for ctrl-w
04:05<@peter1138>seems it does
04:05<@peter1138>and loading a game then doing restart gave me the same map
04:06<@peter1138>different map if i load a savegame from the different version, though that's expected
04:08<Sylf>used 2 different machines (different os) with same settings and same seed - they generated different maps
04:09<Sylf>anyway. it's getting late here
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04:11<@peter1138>different os does not affect it
04:11<@peter1138>the rng is the same
04:13<argoneus>I got a fresh 1.4.3 on both windows and linux
04:14<argoneus>do ingame settings matter?
04:14<argoneus>or is it all stored in save
04:15<argoneus>when I get home, I'll try restarting the savegame on my windows where the save was made
04:15<argoneus>and see if I get same results
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04:17<argoneus>er, wrong channel
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04:31<@peter1138>newgrfs matter, at least
04:36<Pikka>newgrfs are a bad feature
04:40<Pikka>without all this newgrf nonsense we'd have had millions of new airports decades ago
04:41<argoneus>we would?
04:41<argoneus>I wish airports were tileable
04:41<argoneus>like you could design taxiways and runways
04:41<argoneus>wouldn't it be possible to fake that with railways?
04:41<argoneus>then again how would they fly
04:42<argoneus>you can't make invisible railways
04:42<argoneus>non colliding
04:44<Pikka> enjoy, or rather don't.
04:45<argoneus>Pikka: is it bad?
04:45<Pikka>there was a lot of drama in that thread
04:46<Pikka>a lot of drama about doing things properly vs just getting things done
04:46<Pikka>(see also: roadtypes)
04:46<argoneus>I don't see any drama :<
04:48<Pikka>maybe it was more apparent at the time. :) anyway, we still don't have new(air)ports. What a shame.
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06:02<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: and i told you to do this "restart" on the windows client first
06:03<argoneus>sorry, I must have missed it :<
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>there may be a few settings which are not actually saved in the savegame
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>what you describe as "there was a land bridge" may mean different water level
06:06<@peter1138>yeah, i don't think the landscape generator settings are saved
06:07<@peter1138>so if they change...
06:10<NGC3982>Hey, i just found out about the A-train game.
06:11<@peter1138>bit late
06:11<NGC3982>Nine damn games
06:11<NGC3982>What have i missed. :D
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06:20<argoneus>do autosaves not work with dedicated server?
06:20<argoneus>I have monthly autosave on but no saves
06:22<argoneus>oh, wait, the game has been paused since yesterday and not a month has passed
06:22*argoneus facepalms
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06:47<Pikka>why not?
06:47<V453000>I disagree with it
06:47<V453000>it is greatly offensive to me
06:48<Pikka>good :O
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06:49<Pikka>needs moer myhortas
06:50<__ln__>yeah, 'D' contains only consonants, so it is probably some naughty word in czech.
06:51<andythenorth>Pikka chops
06:51<Pikka>guten thing
06:51<Pikka>wot hap?
06:52<andythenorth>trucks and thing
06:52<andythenorth>also not roadtypes
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06:52<andythenorth>and new stations no happening either
06:52<Pikka>never roadtypes
06:52<andythenorth>for no discernible reason
06:52<Pikka>what about hoversellepinz?
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06:55<NGC3982>So tired.
06:55<Pikka>I had a thought today that maybe trucks should have no trailer if they have been refitted but not yet recieved cargo
06:55<Pikka>but that might be impossible without an equivalent of prop 25 to store a flag in.
06:57<__ln__>anyone visiting the Security Essen fair?
06:58<andythenorth>Pikka: just no trailer when empty?
06:59<Pikka>eh, I think it's better if they're just driving back and forth, as usual, that they take the empty trailer back
06:59<Pikka>otherwise you end up with a big pile of trailers at one end :)
06:59<andythenorth>also I am adding much trucks and trams to Road Hog
06:59<andythenorth>minimal wasn’t working
06:59<andythenorth>it wasn’t minimal, nor was it enough
07:00<Pikka>I already made "whole hog" jokes, didn't I?
07:00<Pikka>boin fjb
07:00<andythenorth>Pikka: I think there’s fertile ground left there yet
07:00<andythenorth>many hog jokes
07:06<NGC3982>This is a serious issue
07:06<NGC3982>I'm tired, so i drink coffee
07:06<NGC3982>The coffee makes me more awake, but still tired.
07:07<NGC3982>For some reason, the caffeine effect has turned somewhat surreal
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>you probably should just go to sleep
07:08<NGC3982>I have been sleeping for too long.
07:08<NGC3982>Got to bed at midnight, slept until 11.00, and now i'm here.
07:09<V453000>then the only thing that can help you is vitamins
07:09<V453000>through beer
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07:17<andythenorth>more coffee
07:17<andythenorth>will sort you out
07:17<andythenorth>then top it off with mint tea
07:17<andythenorth>then wine
07:17<NGC3982>mm, tea.
07:18<andythenorth>I think Road Hog is losing grip on reality
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07:28<Eddi|zuHause>is that klingon?
07:29<andythenorth>today I got new coffee
07:29<andythenorth>intensity 13 out of 10
07:29<andythenorth>very spinal tap
07:30<andythenorth>the problem is that next it will need to be 14
07:30<andythenorth>and so on
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07:32<NGC3982>What kind of coffee?
07:32<andythenorth>nespresso caps
07:32<NGC3982>Oh, really?
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07:32<NGC3982>I'm a vivid user.
07:32<andythenorth>some kind of cuban-indian thing
07:32<NGC3982>The normal Ristretto is my favourite
07:33<andythenorth>it’s just about strong enough
07:33<@peter1138>I'm lazy, I get preground and roasted bags in the post...
07:33<NGC3982>2-3 shots a day for good ol' sanity.
07:33<andythenorth>limited edition cubania
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07:34<NGC3982>Ah, i haven't tried it.
07:34<NGC3982>Roma, Arpeggio and Ristretto is basiclly the only thing i use
07:34<NGC3982>I used to have three machines. One in the home office, one in the kitchen and now one at work.
07:35*andythenorth dreams of one at work
07:35<NGC3982>It was the ideal thing to do when wanting to become God.
07:35<andythenorth>it’s my sole ambition in life
07:35<NGC3982>We order almost 300 capsules a month now
07:35<NGC3982>And i'm kinda worried the machine wont survive without service
07:36<NGC3982>It's one of the older versions
07:36<NGC3982>It should have done 3-4000 capsules by now
07:36<NGC3982>And i haven't descaled it since february.
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07:37<@peter1138>is it 1 capsule per drink?
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07:37<andythenorth>but cheaper than silly old costa
07:37<andythenorth>which is now everywhere, like a virus
07:38<@peter1138>coffee shop
07:38<NGC3982>Swedish prices are even higher.
07:38<NGC3982>I pay 3,6SEK per Ristretto capsule. That's ..somewhere around 30p, i guess.
07:40<V453000>see it all boils down to a simple solution
07:40<NGC3982>Beer and coffee is actually a fantastic combination.
07:40<NGC3982>When out, i usually order espresso and stout.
07:40<Pikka>when in, you order espresso and stin.
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07:43<Pikka>does it make sense for a 32bpp track set to include (some) station platforms too?
07:43<Pikka>or even (lots of) station platforms?
07:44<V453000>id say one or two just for basic support
07:44<V453000>rest I would put to station newgrf
07:44<V453000>I would probably put all of them in a station newgrf though
07:44<andythenorth>thou mayst not mix types in grfs
07:44<andythenorth>even if it would make more sense
07:44<Pikka>well that's the question
07:44<andythenorth>thou must make the user seek out things
07:44<Pikka>are rails and stations the same "type"?
07:44<@planetmaker>Pikka, I don't think so. Stations can be coded without tracks. They're composed, thus can go independently
07:45<Pikka>but currently there are no ez track sets, nor ez station sets
07:45<Pikka>so why not a track and station set? :D
07:45<@planetmaker>yet. Still I think it makes sense to keep those two separate
07:45<@planetmaker>Pikka, because I might want your stations. But not your tracks
07:46<Pikka>there's always hairy parameters ;)
07:46<V453000>mhm :)
07:46<@planetmaker>and a track set included limits my choice of tracks
07:48<V453000>esp since stations are usually often loaded
07:49<V453000>the same way, and rest of newgrfs is changed
07:49<@planetmaker>yeah, indeed. I've a list of "always use station sets". And the rest can be adjusted to whatever map I create
07:49<@planetmaker>stations are nearly 100% agnostic of the rest of the game
07:49<Pikka>what about bridges? can bridges go in a track set? or a station set? or do I need to make another grf again? :D
07:50<@planetmaker>bridges also affect roads. Bridges IMHO belong to a landscape set. Or separate
07:50<V453000>train bridges = separate, road bridges == roads/landscape
07:50<@planetmaker>tracks get overlay sprites for bridges, thus bridges adopt to tracks
07:51<@planetmaker>bridges make sense to be separate when we really have road types and road overlay for bridges :P
07:52<andythenorth>i.e. never
07:52<andythenorth>heat death of the universe will take place before roadtypes
07:52<argoneus>I wish someone made proper metro :(
07:52<andythenorth>unless some future AI decides to do it
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07:59<argoneus>also talking about bridges
08:00<argoneus>I'm rather sad the road bridges don't work with tram bridges
08:00<argoneus>I need to kill off the city's bridge
08:00<argoneus>and build my own
08:00<argoneus>if I want tram
08:01<argoneus>I can't just build over it
08:01<andythenorth>you can tram over road bridges
08:01<argoneus>like regular roads
08:01<andythenorth>it’s just a PITA to do
08:01<andythenorth>you have to get the right tile
08:01<andythenorth>one of the bridge heads
08:01<andythenorth>it’s lame
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08:06<V453000>andythenorth: there might be a setting where you cant build over city roads
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08:13<m1oluf>hi all !
08:13<m1oluf>i do tried to download 1.4.3 for debian but it only installs as 1.4.2 can soeone help?
08:14<m1oluf>sorry not for debian but for ubuntu Trusty
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08:15<LordAro> ?
08:16<m1oluf>might be fail build ?
08:18<@peter1138>which build?
08:19<@peter1138>oh, ubuntu
08:19<@peter1138>i can say there is no problem with the wheezy 64bit version
08:22<@peter1138>and... now i need to update my server ;P
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08:24<m1oluf>this is for 1.4.3 trusty co
08:24<m1oluf>come up as 1.4.2
08:25<@peter1138>well i can't test them
08:25<@peter1138>i will not sully my system with ubuntu
08:25<@peter1138>you never said, though, 32 or 64 bit?
08:25<m1oluf>sorry it's 64 bit
08:26<m1oluf>i'm running mint
08:26<@peter1138>the crazy things people do
08:26<__ln__>first it's debian, then ubuntu, then mint
08:26<@peter1138>__ln__, thanks, saves me typing that
08:27<m1oluf>my system is mint using package for ubuntu trusty, and it usually working nice.
08:28<NGC3982>The question we all want the answer to, but nobody dares to ask
08:28<NGC3982>Who will create the OpenTTD software for Oculus Rift?
08:28<m1oluf>thist time 1.4.3 come up as 1.4.2 after install
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: i'm afraid oculus rift doesn't work well with ismetric non-rotatable stuff
08:29<@peter1138>best you could do is a giant virtual screen... but why?
08:30<m1oluf>what the heck, it's not that important. i'll just let be playing
08:30<NGC3982>I take that as all in favor!
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>m1oluf: most likely you have two versions installed and it starts the wrong one
08:30<m1oluf>good luck
08:30<NGC3982>Though, i really want somebody to create some kind of xgl dist with Oculus support
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08:30<NGC3982>I would be first in line
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08:32<@peter1138>xgl dist?
08:32<NGC3982>I can't really remember the name, but that Linux dist with three dimensional desktops and stuff.
08:32<NGC3982>Isn't that XGL?
08:33<@peter1138>why does a little bit of software need to be a complete distribution?
08:33<NGC3982>Why do you ask me thinks you know i have no idea about.
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08:37<Eddi|zuHause>why do you talk about things you have no idea about?
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>"if you kept silent, you would have stayed a philosopher
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08:50<andythenorth>what to call a bulk crop truck?
08:50<andythenorth>farm dump truck?
08:50<andythenorth>crop dump truck?
08:50<andythenorth>farm bulk truck?
08:50<Xaroth|Work>your m... wait, wrong time for that joke
08:50<andythenorth>save it for a better moment
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09:06<Pikka>"bulk crop truck"?
09:06<Pikka>covered hopper truck? grain truck?
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>crop tipper
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09:07<Eddi|zuHause>harvest tipper
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>harvest dump truck
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>not to confuse with a harvest combine
09:07<Pikka>reverse portuguese armoire?
09:08<argoneus>crop hopper
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>hopping cropper
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09:15<argoneus>redneck hauler
09:16<andythenorth>Pikka: hauls farm crops that are uncountable and pourable: grain, wheat, fruit, sugar beet, sugar cane, etc
09:17<Pikka>bulk crop truck then. or something.
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09:17<andythenorth>this sort of fellow
09:17<Pikka>covered tipper truck
09:18<andythenorth>‘cider ingredients truck'
09:18<Pikka>"farm" isn't a cargo class
09:18<andythenorth>do players care about that?
09:18<andythenorth>I wondered
09:18<andythenorth>I called it bulk
09:18<Pikka>well, I'm just saying
09:18<andythenorth>but eh, does anyone care about it being bulk
09:18<Pikka>you can't guarantee that all the cargos it carries are "farm" cargos
09:18<andythenorth>‘liquid tanker'
09:18<andythenorth>I’m label refitting
09:18<Pikka>unless you're specifying not-by-class, which is naughty
09:18<Pikka>which is naughty
09:18<andythenorth>it’s ok
09:18<andythenorth>I’m a grown up
09:19<andythenorth>I’m old enough to drink
09:19<Pikka>what about all those fabulous industry sets which have other labels in the future?
09:19<andythenorth>got a vehicle that refits all, innit
09:19<argoneus>andythenorth: why is your apostrophe broken
09:20<andythenorth>is it all fancy squirls?
09:20<@planetmaker>Pikka, it's nicer to go by label for those known. And cater for the unknown only by means of class :)
09:20<@planetmaker>but nicer in this context is just my personal preference :)
09:20<argoneus>andythenorth: it's a question mark here
09:20<Pikka>I'd just make it a covered tipper truck ;)
09:20<andythenorth>covered tipper truck
09:20<andythenorth>will do
09:20<Pikka>not farm specific
09:20*argoneus tips
09:20<@planetmaker>argoneus, then get an irc client with decent utf8 support
09:20<argoneus>planetmaker: but I have
09:20<argoneus>it could be the web interface that's messing up
09:21<andythenorth>lovely as this is, biab
09:21<@planetmaker>"web interface" and "decent irc client" are somewhat mutually exclusive
09:21<argoneus>I use irssi on a vps
09:21<argoneus>and a web frontend because port 22 is blocked at my work
09:21<Pikka>uk keyboards or something
09:22<argoneus>it's my client then :<
09:22<@planetmaker>anyhow, the problem is at your end as it is a nice backtick which andy uses. (Not an apostrophe though)
09:22<argoneus>so it's `?
09:22<Pikka>it isn't that
09:22<argoneus>w/e I'll fix it when at home
09:23<andythenorth>this client is doing smart quotes a bit unreliably tbh
09:23<@planetmaker>`some are, some aren't`
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09:25<V453000>planetmaker: your reddit comment gained a +1 :P
09:25<Pikka>hooray for internet points
09:25<@planetmaker>he :)
09:26<Pikka>"No distribution of OpenTTD should not contain an openttd.cfg"?
09:26<@planetmaker>hm :) One re-forumlation of that sentence too much, I guess :P
09:26<V453000>double negative :P
09:26<V453000>DOUBLE MEANING
09:26<V453000>moar power
09:26<argoneus>ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWA
09:27<@planetmaker>I don't see that double negative. You must have erred, Pikka ;)
09:27<@planetmaker>lalala :)
09:27<@planetmaker>aka thanks
09:27<V453000>ROUND 2 BEGINS
09:27<@planetmaker>war of the internet points?
09:28<Pikka>I'll have the same again, V
09:28<@planetmaker>can I clone points?
09:28<__ln__>Is it not untrue, that no distribution should not fail to contain a .cfg
09:28<Pikka>we can't not fail to disagree, ln.
09:28<argoneus>just count the negatives
09:28<argoneus>if it's even it means yes
09:28<argoneus>if it's odd it's negative
09:29<V453000>is beer positive or negative
09:29<argoneus>depends on the time of the day
09:30<V453000>fuck no
09:30<@peter1138>` is not ‘
09:31<@peter1138>or ’
09:31<V453000>beer is stable
09:31<@peter1138>no it's not
09:31<argoneus>have you ever drank beer before noon
09:31<@planetmaker>V453000, untrue. It's presence is totally unstable. Especially in your vicinity
09:31<argoneus>and I don't mean like at 2 AM
09:31<argoneus>I mean frm 8 to 12
09:31<@peter1138>argoneus, yes!
09:31<@planetmaker>does 6am count? yes
09:32<argoneus>the later in the day, the better the beer tastes
09:32<@peter1138>It’s only disgusting if you’re drinking yesterday’s bottle...
09:32<argoneus>why is my locale set to POSIX
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09:54<Thurak>does aptitude update to the latest version of openttd often, or should i manually download it from the website?
09:55<@planetmaker>Thurak, probably you want to do the latter
09:56<Thurak>while installing from the download off website, got a message saying aptitude has an older version, yep, think the website was the best option :)
09:57<@planetmaker>I'll be surprised if any distribution has already our two-day old release :P
09:58<Thurak>oh that recent then :P
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11:09<andythenorth>quak also
11:10<@Alberth>a good afternoon all
11:11<@Rubidium>planetmaker: Debian unstable has it ;)
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11:28<fjb>Moin Alberth
11:28<fjb>Quak frosch123
11:28<@Alberth>oh, hi. Long time no see/talk :)
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11:40<DanMacK>hey all
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11:52<fjb>Moin DanMacK
11:52<@planetmaker>hey fjb :) Thanks
11:53<fjb>Alberth: Didn't have much time, sadly.
11:53<fjb>planetmaker: Didn't reach you yesterday.
11:53<@planetmaker>yeah, I left for friends' place for dinner in the afternoon
11:54<@planetmaker>though phone *should* have been re-directed
11:54<fjb>If I only had found your phone number...
11:54<@planetmaker>he :)
11:54<fjb>I once had it, I know.
11:54<@planetmaker>yeah, thought so :)
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11:55<@planetmaker>check private message
12:04<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26919 trunk/src/gfxinit.cpp (2014-09-25 16:04:02 UTC)
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12:04<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6096]: Crash when enabling "Full animation" if multiplayer chat text is on screen.
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26920 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-09-25 17:45:45 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>french - 79 changes by glx
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 3 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
13:45<@DorpsGek>tamil - 2 changes by vv
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13:50<Wolf01>hi hi
13:50<fjb>Moin Wolf01
13:57<@Alberth>evenink mr Wolf
13:58*Alberth fetches a pillow
13:58*Wolf01 sleeps
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14:48<Wolf01>mmmh, already tried transocean?
14:48*andythenorth has horrible idea
14:48<andythenorth>subtype refits for 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% capacity
14:48<andythenorth>strictly already done in some Squid ships
14:48<andythenorth>but considering it for RVs
14:49<Wolf01>fix the cabeese
14:50<andythenorth>mmm fixed cabeese
14:50<andythenorth>how would you fix them?
14:50<Wolf01>dualheaded engines
14:50<andythenorth>1 cabeese = 25% load
14:50<andythenorth>2 cabeese = 50% load...
14:51<Wolf01>do you ever need more than one caboose?
14:52<Wolf01>I would have made all the steam engines which required a caboose dualheaded, engine from one side, caboose from the other
14:52<andythenorth>oh that magic dual engine thing?
14:52<argoneus>hold on a second
14:52<andythenorth>interesting idea
14:52<argoneus>one sided block signals are unpassable from the other side?
14:52<andythenorth>doesn’t work for IH, can’t use dual-headed
14:53<argoneus>I thought only the path signals with the yellow board were blocking from the other side
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14:53<Wolf01>yes argoneus, as far as I remember
14:53<argoneus>does this apply to presignals too?
14:53<Wolf01>yes, they are block signals
14:54*andythenorth seriously considers a subtype refit on RVs
14:54<Wolf01>I only use pbs signals and make plain junctions
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14:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you always have an opinion, nearly always useful… subtype refits on RVs (but can’t change length of vehicle - forbidden at stations)
14:59<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE
15:00<andythenorth>or worth exploring?
15:00<andythenorth>BADGER FEATURE
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of subtype?
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>just make sure that the autorefit callback keeps the subtype
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>and that all generations have the same subtypes (for autoreplace)
15:01<andythenorth>what would be the gameplay reason for not just always using biggest capacity?
15:01<andythenorth>is the real question I think
15:01<Wolf01>I never understood those refit gearing, capacity, speed, stuff refits
15:01<frosch123>i never use the biggest capacity in heqs
15:01<frosch123>higher frequent cycles give better rating
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>what would be the gameplay reason for not just having a different model for each capacity?
15:02<andythenorth>effectively same question
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>normally, the "reason" was to avoid combinatorial explosion
15:02<andythenorth>why wouldn’t you just choose the biggest?
15:02-!-tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it has weird running costs?
15:02<Wolf01>or is slower
15:02<andythenorth>I refit a couple of ships in Squid, because sometimes you want 200t ship, and sometimes 800t
15:02<andythenorth>but trucks / trams don’t have that range
15:02<andythenorth>30t or 50t
15:03<andythenorth>you’re going to use 50t every time
15:03<frosch123>30 or 50 is still factor two, but yes, 30 is way too small
15:03<frosch123>50 or 100 would be an option :p
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>except when 50t needs special roads
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15:04<frosch123>maybe the 50t version cannot overtake :p
15:04<andythenorth>none of them can overtake :P
15:04<andythenorth>you’d still choose 50t
15:04<andythenorth>ok well that’s simple then, thanks :)
15:05<andythenorth>no capacity refits, all RVs have roughly similar capacity range
15:05<andythenorth>there are 3 roadtypes
15:06<@peter1138>that is your imagination
15:06<andythenorth>road, tram track, tram track on road
15:08<Wolf01>mmmh, your graphics set is missing a number of sprites... I already have the 0.5.0 and seem that there isn't a newest one
15:09<@peter1138>use ttd graphics
15:09<Wolf01>argh my eyes
15:09<frosch123>or ignore it and enjoy the awesome map borders :)
15:10*andythenorth -> pub
15:10<andythenorth>if someone could just make roadtypes while I’m gone
15:10<argoneus> will this work? as in, does path signal go beyond the signal in front or not?
15:10<argoneus>or do I need something better
15:10<andythenorth>that will destroy my set design :P
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15:15<@Alberth>argoneus: never make a block that can be entered from a path signal and a block signal at the same time
15:15<@Alberth>you'll get crashes
15:15<argoneus>I did this
15:15<argoneus>this will work?
15:15-!-sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit []
15:16<argoneus>also why would I get crashes?
15:16<argoneus>one of the signals will yield to the other either way, no?
15:16<@Alberth>you may want to add a signal on the incoming stream just before the junction at the station
15:16<@Alberth>so a train can stop there and wait for a free platform
15:17<argoneus>but then it would wait in an unoptimal place, no?
15:17<argoneus>because another station could free up meanwhile
15:18<@Alberth>trains entering a block through a path signal will plan a route through the block. trains entering a block through a block signal do not plan a route. Those two types will collide when they encounter each other
15:18<@Alberth>somewhat, it depends on the amount of incoming trains and the duration of stay in the station
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15:19<argoneus>this station is both loading and unloading
15:19<argoneus>so it might take a while
15:19<@Alberth>an alternative can perhaps be that you make the center the incoming source for all 4 platforms?
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15:19<@Alberth>so trains can wait closer to the platform
15:20<argoneus>so I won't have 2 junctions
15:20<argoneus>but one superjunction?
15:20<@Alberth>I'd keep 2 exits at both sides so trains don't cross each other too much
15:21<argoneus> ?
15:23<@Alberth>nope, one moment
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15:24<Supercheese>mixed path and block signals? naughty
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15:27<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26921 trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp (2014-09-25 19:27:07 UTC)
15:27<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Adjust content window listing to fit icon size.
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15:29<argoneus>so there will be only 2 exits from the station?
15:29<argoneus>if I add another two platforms, and need 3 exits
15:30<argoneus>what is a good place for that? in the middle?
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>you only need 2 exits if they merge into one line anyway
15:30<argoneus>and if I eventually double my exits
15:31<argoneus>what is a good place for exits?
15:31<argoneus>double my lines*
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>you do that if you also double the incoming line
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>then you likely also need to double the platforms
15:31<argoneus>but then I can't have just two exits on the sides
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>then it's better if you just put two separate stations like this adjacent to each other
15:31<argoneus>but somewhere in the middle I guess?
15:32<argoneus>ohh, right
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>so you just copy or mirror this layout
15:32<argoneus>or I can make it roro
15:32<argoneus>and have infinite platforms
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>and have no connections inbetween
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>there is only so many trains which can come simultaneously from one line
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>5 or 6 platforms for that is probably plenty
15:34<@Alberth> :)
15:35<argoneus>o, I see
15:38<@Alberth> or exits go over the bridge
15:38<@Alberth>entries are a bit of a mess, but trains come from a lot of directions
15:38<argoneus>that looks messy
15:39<argoneus>but I see
15:39<@Alberth>it's 5 platforms so the pattern breaks down a bit :p
15:54<argoneus>if I have a station that leads into two lines
15:54<argoneus>what is the easiest way to tell the train "go into the less populated line" ?
15:54<argoneus>if I have block signals everywhere I can't just do it simply, can I?
15:55<@peter1138>use less signals everywhere for a start
15:55<argoneus>I thought distance 2 was standard
15:55<@peter1138>standard for who?
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15:55<@peter1138>who cares what they use? o_O
15:55<argoneus>they know how to optimize things
15:55<argoneus>so I believe them
15:56<PulkoMandy>hi, I have some problems compiling openttd on Haiku
15:56<PulkoMandy>first you are missing a #include <strings.h> to use strcasecmp (I added this to stdafx.h)
15:56<PulkoMandy>and more annoying, the compiler seems to get stuck in an infinite loop compiling industry_cmd.cpp
15:57<PulkoMandy>and eating a lot of RAM
15:58<PulkoMandy>I get this issue both with 1.3.3 and 1.4.3. But I know I got 1.3.3 to compile in an earlier version of Haiku, which didn't need the strings.h fix
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15:58<PulkoMandy>and I noticed there is a generated file also named strings.h which may be a problem
15:59<frosch123>#include <cstring> <- from stdafx.h
15:59<frosch123>maybe your compiler is not standard compliant
15:59<PulkoMandy>strcasecmp is in strings.h, not string.h
15:59<PulkoMandy>it seems not everyone is standard compliant on that. We have found this issue in a lot of projects
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16:00<frosch123>hmm, so strcasecmp is not part of the standard at all :p
16:01<PulkoMandy>it's POSIX, but not C99. I don't know which standards you are following
16:02<frosch123>with some sprincles of c++11
16:02<frosch123>like assert_statci
16:02<PulkoMandy>ok, so you shouldn't be using strcasecmp then :)
16:02<+glx>but it's available almost everywhere
16:03<PulkoMandy>yes, just in the wrong include file
16:04<@peter1138>infinite compiler loops are fun
16:05<frosch123>strings.h is an interesting header file
16:05<frosch123>8 functions, 5 deprecated, 1 not related to strings at all
16:06<frosch123>the 2 usable one are strcasecmp and strncasecmp
16:07<PulkoMandy>I tried copying strcasecmp and strncasecmp dclarations to stdafx.h to make sure it is not an include order problem. it's not, I still get the infinite loop
16:07<PulkoMandy>I guess I should report that to gcc then
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16:09<frosch123>if you think it is a problem if the include, you could try removing some from industry_cmd
16:09<frosch123>it will fail compiling, but maybe you can figure out whether the loop is related to the includes
16:09<PulkoMandy>no, apparently it's not
16:10<argoneus>I wish there was an exit signal
16:10<argoneus>that was a pathing signal
16:10<argoneus>at the same time
16:11<@peter1138>just use pathsingals
16:11<@peter1138>and path signals
16:11<argoneus>but you can't chain path signals
16:11<argoneus>like when a train should decide if it should go station A or station B
16:12<PulkoMandy>compiling with -O0 worked. So gcc bug it is
16:12<@peter1138>trains should decide that?
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16:13<frosch123>according to my header files, these functions are defined in string.h if __USE_BSD is set
16:13<frosch123>why does everything end up at bsd today? :p
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16:19<argoneus>so I ended up doing this
16:19<argoneus>seems to work fine
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16:20<Sylf>why are those one way pbs there?
16:21<argoneus>they shouldn't?
16:21<Sylf>block signals work just fin
16:21<@Alberth>looks ok, the 2x45 degrees could be removed if you split earlier
16:21<Sylf>You can add 2 one way pbs for those 2 lines coming in, right outside of the platform splits
16:21<argoneus>Alberth: where exactly?
16:21<argoneus>Sylf: but then trains might go to stations that are full, no?
16:21<Sylf>then those 2 long spaces work as waiting spaces
16:22<Sylf>Trains are smarter than that usually
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>[25.09.2014 22:10] <argoneus> I wish there was an exit signal that was a pathing signal <-- in most cases where you'd want that signal, you probably should just remove that signal
16:22<argoneus>but the path calculation only goes upto next signal, no?
16:22<Sylf>occupied platforms give pathfinder some penalties
16:23<Sylf>it goes further
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>the path calculation goes until the final destination
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>and for the first 10(-ish) signals, also the track and signal state are taken into account
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16:24<Eddi|zuHause>and for really masochistic people, all these parameters can be adjusted
16:24<@Alberth>just follow the red arrow :p
16:25<@Alberth>and you have way too many signals on the way out
16:25<argoneus>Alberth: but then I'd need another bridge, no?
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16:25<@Alberth>re-use the one going left now :)
16:26<argoneus>I'm confused what you mean :<
16:27<Sylf>Trying to avoid those tight curves
16:27<@Alberth>just lay a track along the red arrow instead of the 2x45 degrees turn
16:27<Sylf>assuming you're playing with realistic acceleration
16:27<argoneus>but which one do you mean I should reuse?
16:27<@Alberth>it's totally useless to have signals more close than the largest block that you have
16:28<@Alberth>which is about 7 tiles
16:28<argoneus>so I want distance 7?
16:29<@Alberth>you're having a huge block to enter the station (2 tracks, about 15 tiles)
16:29<@Alberth>no way you can ever get more than that out of the station
16:29<@Alberth>so an outgoing block size of 2 tiles is just nonsense
16:29<argoneus>hmm, true
16:30<@Alberth>in fact, you're limiting the look ahead of trains for no good reason
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>longer signal distance makes a few things easier, like bridges
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>or line priorities
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>or ...
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>and the loss of track capacity is minimal
16:35<argoneus>I revisited my station
16:36<argoneus>is this ok?
16:38<@Alberth>on the outgoing lines, you can remove the block signal directly after the junction at the station
16:38<argoneus>but capacity wise, this is ok?
16:38<argoneus>also, this is what you meant?
16:38<argoneus>or you would've done it differently
16:38<PulkoMandy>so here's a patch for my strings.h issue and an include path problem (we changed our directory layout a bit):
16:39<@Alberth>you're in a path signal block, usually you don't put signals at points where you don't want trains to stop
16:39<@Alberth>looks ok to me
16:39<@Alberth>does it work?
16:39<Sylf>argoneus, you can get rid of the block signals right outside of the station
16:39<argoneus>yeah already did
16:39<Sylf>the 4 signals that used to be 1way pbs
16:40<Sylf>oh, Alberth already said the same thing
16:40<@Alberth>it looks a bit overkill having so many exits
16:40<@Alberth>but it depends on how busy it is
16:41<Sylf>the block signal at the very beginning of the entry to the whole area
16:41<Sylf>that might cause problems later on
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16:41<argoneus>I missed that one
16:41<@peter1138>block signals: if you have to ask, don't use them
16:42<Sylf>:P I use pbs and block signals the other way
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16:44<Sylf>by the way, about the 10 signal look ahead for yapf...
16:44<@Alberth>yeah, using only pbs makes life a lot easier
16:44<Sylf>if you use pbs, how does it work? does it check if path is occupied?
16:44<Sylf>you can't really check for the signal state, can you?
16:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26922 trunk/src/stdafx.h (2014-09-25 20:45:25 UTC)
16:45<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Include strings.h on HAIKU for strcasecmp. Some platforms do not have a strings.h at all, most define the functions in string.h as well.
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16:46<@Alberth>path finder tries to avoid other trains if it can
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16:47<@Alberth>ie if you make a split to a destination that's equally-ish long, trains will use both paths
16:48*peter1138 ponders distcc
16:48<@Alberth>like wise, trains will prefer free platforms
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16:54<@peter1138>Hmm, works I guess :p
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17:15<LordAro>TrueBrain: so, is vulnerable to "shellshock"? finding attempts in my own nginx logs was surprising...
17:16<argoneus>should my trains actually go self-service themselves when I autoreplace?
17:16<Supercheese>They should
17:17<Supercheese>if not you can Manage List -> Send for Maintenance
17:17<argoneus>o they do
17:17<Supercheese>however I find they auto-go quite nicely
17:17<argoneus>it took them a while for some reason
17:17<Supercheese>they even wait for opportune times
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17:20<TrueBrain>LordAro: it shouldnt, as we dont use cgi-bin
17:20<TrueBrain>but ... who knows
17:21<TrueBrain>so many software might be exploitable as they might use bash for some background what-ever
17:21<@peter1138>LordAro, that's not attempts, that's just a scanner
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17:22<TrueBrain>hard to see if that scanner really found an exploit
17:22<@peter1138>no it's very limited
17:22<@peter1138>it's clearly something that's very app specific
17:22<LordAro>peter1138: i had more than just that
17:23<TrueBrain>many people are trying
17:23<@peter1138>and tbh a web scan is pretty useless anyway
17:23<TrueBrain>but ... logs dont really tell you if it succeeded
17:23<TrueBrain>honestly, this whole "as big as hearthbleed" is just a PR happy person
17:23<@peter1138>TrueBrain, i think so too
17:24<TrueBrain>no real exploits have been reported
17:25<TrueBrain>but okay
17:25<TrueBrain>updating is easy
17:25<TrueBrain>low effort
17:25<TrueBrain>so meh
17:25<@peter1138>maybe they considered the stick that openssl got
17:26<@peter1138>when it was originally reported "very unlikely" that anything could happen... except it did
17:26<frosch123>not enough dash fanboys?
17:26<@peter1138>that too :)
17:27<@peter1138>most scripts on a debian system will be using dash not bash
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17:27<@peter1138>anyone running bash as a cgi ... yuck
17:28<@peter1138>mind you
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17:28<@peter1138>home routers are quite likely too, as firmware makers are ignorant when it comes to security
17:29<frosch123>mine has a memory leak or something, i need to reset it about once a week :)
17:30<TrueBrain>those firmware makers that run httpd as root
17:30<TrueBrain>(the cgi-bin part)
17:30<TrueBrain>they should be punished! :P
17:31<@peter1138>might be a handy way to root them to put better firmware on it :p
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17:31<frosch123>oh, yeah, a worm that installs a proper os would be something new
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17:33<+glx>and the default admin/admin accessible from outside ?
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17:47<Eddi|zuHause>"a person who wrote 70 letters per day to the city administration was now sentenced to not write more than 2 letters, or face a prison sentence"
17:48<NGC3982>It's a day of celebration
17:48<NGC3982>At least if you are of indian descent and you love space.
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>if you're not indian, the day is probably almost over
17:49<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: how many pages can a letter contain?
17:49<NGC3982>It is actually quite fascinating.
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: there is both a weight and a size limit to letters
17:49<NGC3982>The indian MOM project with a successfull probe to orbit Mars costs less than the cost of creating the movie Gravity.
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: or a single air strike in syria
17:50<NGC3982>And at almost a 1:20 of the entire Curiosity project.
17:50<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Exactly!
17:51<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the international letter i sent to australia was limited to something like A3 * 5cm and 1 kg
17:51<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: How can sending letters be subject to prison sentence?
17:52<frosch123>actually L+B+H <= 90cm
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: letters themselves not, but ignoring a court order...
17:52<NGC3982>Bittuva' difference.
17:53<NGC3982>With good reason, i guess.
17:54<NGC3982>Jesus, you where serious
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17:55<frosch123>NGC3982: just hope that noone figures out that they would be cheaper if they happened more often
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17:58<Eddi|zuHause>maybe this bash vulnerability should be called "shellbleed" :p
17:59<NGC3982>Yeah, what about thata?
17:59<NGC3982>I did not really follow up on it.
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>something about code injection via environment variables
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>and bash is crazily old bad code, that nobody ever reviewed
18:01<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
18:01<NGC3982>I probably run it, and my server is most probably vournerable.
18:01<NGC3982>As usual..
18:01<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it's only about as old as cvs
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably older than me :p
18:02<frosch123>you are not that young
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>well, maybe
18:02<frosch123>lordaro may have a chance of being younger than bash/cvs
18:02<frosch123>but you don't :p
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>how old do you think i am? :p
18:03<NGC3982>Like 95.
18:03*NGC3982 is probably young around here.
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not alberth :p
18:03<LordAro>yup, both are >5 years older than me :p
18:04<LordAro>well, cvs is 4.5 years older than me :3
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18:04*NGC3982 is born in 1987.
18:06<Supercheese>was* ;)
18:07<NGC3982>It's 1981
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>i once learned that you use present perfect "if an action that happened in the past still has effects today"
18:08<NGC3982>In English?
18:08<LordAro>something like that
18:08<NGC3982>So, you is the stupidest toddler ever?
18:09*NGC3982 harr's for herself.
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>that is not present perfect
18:11<frosch123>perfect progressive? you have been borning since 1987?
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>i have my doubts that the infinitive of "born" is "born" :p
18:12<frosch123>yeah, have no idea
18:12<frosch123>maybe it only exists as perfect
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18:13<@peter1138>vournerable yeah
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18:13<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it's derived from "bear" (as in "carry")
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>better not
18:14<+glx>wiktionary says "past participle of bear; given birth to."
18:15*NGC3982 read particle.
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>at least that makes sense in correlation to german (ge)bor(en) -> (ge)bär(en)
18:16<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: actually, it's being called "shellshock"
18:16<LordAro>(i missed the initial part of the conversation)
18:17<NGC3982>What does that do?
18:17<frosch123>are you sure you missed something? :p
18:18<LordAro>well, i didn't notice `<Eddi|zuHause> maybe this bash vulnerability should be called "shellbleed" :p` and NGC3982's follow up stuff
18:18<LordAro>i only looked after your highlight
18:18<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
18:19<NGC3982>I was a tad scared that "YEP." was related to my current connection.
18:19<NGC3982>Like the "Are you affected by heartbleed?" site.
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: well, they call many political scandals XXX-gate nowadays
18:20<NGC3982>It's a very faulty use of the suffix
18:20<NGC3982>It's the name of a damn hotel
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: or the name of a place where they happened to build a hotel?
18:20<LordAro>see: gamergate
18:21<+glx>LordAro: gamergate is total bullshit
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>i only know gamergod88
18:21<LordAro>glx: of course
18:23*NGC3982 googles gamergate.
18:23<NGC3982>Oh, for god sake
18:24<NGC3982>"#gamergate" is not even properly used, even if "gate" was a correctly used suffix in the first place.
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18:30<Eddi|zuHause>well, and "shellshock" was originally a name for what we today call "PTSD"
18:31<Supercheese>or "ambulatory concussion" :P
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>because people who were injured in WWI were the first larger group of people affected by it
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's said that J.R.R. Tolkien had this condition, which led him to creating imagined worlds to process
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22:29<efess>hey, any way to do a console command to see what gamescript is loaded?
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 26 00:00:26 2014