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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-26

---Logopened Fri Sep 26 00:00:26 2014
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01:24<argoneus>stronk mornink
01:24<argoneus>>school at 7:30
01:24<argoneus>ffff
01:28<V453000>gg
01:37<argoneus>I am wondering
01:37<argoneus>I want to make a script, that takes a giant screenshot once in a while and uploads it to my website
01:37<argoneus>I suppose I have to use a script with Expect or such?
01:37<argoneus>or is it possible somehow even normally
01:37<argoneus>like with a parameter or a rcon command
01:39<V453000>idk but how about launching the game as network, and your second client simply stays in one position and takes screenshot every $time
01:39<V453000>I think gettile moves your viewport
01:42<argoneus>doesn't network game start the GUI too?
01:42<V453000>well does but idk if you can make that automatic
01:43<argoneus>hmm
01:45<argoneus>I'll just use my irc bot with the admin port
01:45<argoneus>and through that run screenshot
01:45<argoneus>I guess
01:46<andythenorth>o/
01:47<argoneus>the question is
01:47<argoneus>if I can somehow get the openttd folder
01:47<argoneus>because on windows and linux they are different
01:47<argoneus>oh wait I can just specify that in config, right
01:47<argoneus>should be fine
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02:22<argoneus>oh
02:22<argoneus>you can't take screenshots without GUI
02:22<argoneus>well, that makes sense I guess
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03:37<argoneus>are there any commands to get current date / start date?
03:38<argoneus>because there don't seem to be any on the wiki
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03:45<Supercheese>setting game_creation.starting_year will print that
03:45<andythenorth>@seen pikka
03:45<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 16 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <Pikka> probably
03:45<Supercheese>"setting game_creation.starting_year"
03:45<argoneus>ah, I see
03:46<argoneus>thanks
03:47<Supercheese>"getdate" for current date
03:47<andythenorth>hmm
03:47<andythenorth>my forum sig
03:47<andythenorth>does not have all sets
03:47<andythenorth>but then it would be big
03:47<Supercheese>I just hopped in a game, typed "list_cmds", found those :P
03:48<andythenorth>big sig is BAD FEATURE
03:48<andythenorth>maybe time for HEQS to die
03:48<Supercheese>Nuuuuu mah trams
03:48<Supercheese>HEQS trams are epic
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03:53<argoneus>Supercheese: someone should update the wiki :<
03:53<argoneus>the commands taht is
03:53<argoneus>(I do realize that someone could be me)
03:56<Supercheese>Yes, https://wiki.openttd.org/Console_Commands could use an update or two
03:57<Supercheese>it doesn't have "getdate" for one
03:57<@planetmaker>andythenorth, just use smaller font ;)
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04:03<Supercheese>Columns?
04:08<@peter1138>Someone™ should do it...
04:09<@planetmaker>@seen someone
04:09<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: someone was last seen in #openttd 3 years, 49 weeks, 2 days, 14 hours, 28 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Someone> indeed
04:09<@planetmaker>lazy person it seems
04:10<@peter1138>@seen somebody
04:10<@DorpsGek>peter1138: I have not seen somebody.
04:13<V453000>OR PICTURZ
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04:29<andythenorth>roadtypes!
04:30<andythenorth>mostly so steam trams don’t have wires
04:30<andythenorth>no gameplay reason
04:31<andythenorth>can’t we just forget roadtypes, and set a tile-has-power bit instead?
04:31<andythenorth>then we can have steam / diesel trams with no wires
04:31<andythenorth>and we can have electric trucks and crap
04:36<andythenorth>bbl
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04:42<argoneus>we could also have railroad-has-power
04:42<argoneus>and then you need to haul coal to power stations with cars, and wire electricity to your railroads
04:42<argoneus>else you can't use electrified railroads
04:42<argoneus>we could have 'electricity hopper'
04:43<argoneus>which carries 500 watt-tons
04:45<V453000>...
04:45<V453000>just have batteries :)
04:51<@Rubidium>argoneus: doesn't help screenshot show which options there are? For example 'screenshot giant <filename>'
04:57<argoneus>Rubidium: it said no video driver available
04:57<argoneus>I think the server needs to be able to run the actual game to take a screenshot?
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04:58<Xaroth|Work>dedicated server can't produce screenshots
04:58<Xaroth|Work>unless you run it with a video driver
04:59<argoneus>aw, there goes my idea of having automatic screenshots of current progress
05:03<@planetmaker>maybe I should un-earth my keep-blitter-for-dedicated-server-patch :P
05:05<argoneus>keep-blitter?
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05:15<Xaroth|Work>argoneus: a 'trick' to be able to make screenshots with the dedicated server
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05:16<argoneus>how does that work?
05:20<@planetmaker>the cheap way is to remove some #ifdef
05:22<argoneus>but without a video driver and starting the game
05:22<argoneus>you cannot draw pictures
05:22<argoneus>no?
05:23<argoneus>I mean, you probably can in theory
05:23<argoneus>but is that how ottd works?
05:25<@peter1138>well it used to be possible but then someone™ removed it, because in general servers rendering is not wanted
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05:25<@peter1138>the change to reenable it is probably quite simple. if you know the code.
05:25<@peter1138>which planetmaker clearly does :)
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05:35<argoneus>how does the giant screenshot work anyway?
05:35<argoneus>does it just take the map array and render tile by tile into a picture?
05:35<argoneus>or is it something different
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05:35<Xaroth|Work>close enough
05:37<@peter1138>something like that
05:39<argoneus>so it's just some sdl routine to render the tiles and save it into an image?
05:39<argoneus>e.g. it doesn't necessarily need a GPU or the game running?
05:39<argoneus>ie*
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05:47<argoneus>how do you guys log the server and have access to console at the same time?
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05:57<Tykling-9167>I am on a windows laptop without a mouse and I've tried configuring "function of scrollwheel" to "scroll map" but I am still unable to scroll the map
05:58<Tykling-9167>if it is set to "zoom map" it zooms in and out alright, isn't it weird that it won't scroll the map then ?
05:59<@peter1138>nothing to do with SDL
06:00<Tykling-9167>was that for me ?
06:00<@peter1138>no
06:00<Tykling-9167>:) ok thanks
06:01<Tykling-9167>hm looks like I can scroll using the "pan at window edge" function
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06:06<wousser>Hi, congrats on the 1.4.3 release. I'm looking for the roadmap for future versions. Seems the one on the wiki is not accurate.
06:09<LordAro>"accurate"
06:09<LordAro>it's nonexistent :p
06:09<wousser>It was with the 0.7 releases ;)
06:10<wousser>So where are the bugs, new features, enhancements now taken from? The bugtracker?
06:11<LordAro>largely
06:11<wousser>However, none of the issues are tagged to releases
06:14<@planetmaker>argoneus, some months (or years) ago https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pjtmhyhgs was sufficient
06:15<@peter1138>and if it's not a dedicated server build...
06:15<@planetmaker>wousser, there is no road map. Fixing bugs is surely a priority. Features and other changes happen as they do
06:15<@peter1138>just specifying a resolution and a blitter might let you do it
06:16<@planetmaker>I think that's how it worked, peter1138. The cfg had a blitter and a resolution. And then the screenshot command would write images using those two
06:17<@planetmaker>it's a bit ago when coop used that patch on servers
06:17<@peter1138>yeah, well the someone™ who disabled it by default was... er... well...
06:18<@planetmaker>it's disabled for long. Dunno when or why actually. I recon it could be changed to be allowed by a separate compiler flag
06:18<@planetmaker>like KEEP_BLITTER or whatever
06:18<@peter1138>just compile a non-dedicated build and it'll be fine
06:18<@peter1138>it's only a couple of extra libs ;p
06:19<@peter1138>who even compiles dedicated builds?
06:19<@peter1138>our premade binaries are always full, aren't they?
06:19<@planetmaker>yes, they are. coop and reddit compile, for what I know. I don't know any other servers
06:20<@peter1138>i used to but i'm lazy now
06:20<@peter1138>only compile for trunk heh
06:20<@planetmaker>the need for the full xlibs is big. Just enabling blitter keeps deps low
06:20<@planetmaker>yeah... so do I. Server updates are easy... just call !update on irc for me :)
06:21<@peter1138>hmm
06:21<@peter1138>ah of course
06:21<@peter1138>i have mono on my server, so that lot is already there :S
06:21<@planetmaker>admin port client for the win :)
06:21<@peter1138>forgot about that
06:21<@peter1138>so when do we start making dedicated server builds? :p
06:22<@planetmaker>ask TrueBrain. We got not the server to do since June :P
06:22<@planetmaker>yay for unwarranted highlight also :P
06:22<@peter1138>not the server?
06:23<@planetmaker>our server where the CF runs on. It's got more ram, more cpu than before. So CF should easily handle that
06:23<@planetmaker>would still probably not be worth it. Dunno
06:25<@peter1138>not the server means you don't have it... but... ok
06:25<@peter1138>is it still ovh?
06:26<@peter1138>i have a 16GB 3GHz quad core with ovh, heh
06:26<@planetmaker>yeah. So does OpenTTD :P
06:26<@peter1138>no raid though
06:26<@peter1138>so only a single 2TB disk
06:26<@peter1138>== backups are vital :p
06:27<@peter1138>i mean, they are anyway, but still
06:28<@planetmaker>2*2TB raid1 for OpenTTD
06:29<@planetmaker>hm, though I think we have 32GB ram... I forgot :P
06:29<@peter1138>it's the best box i have access to :(
06:29<@planetmaker>http://www.soyoustart.com/de/angebote/game-3.xml <-- bit modified system from that
06:29<@planetmaker>no ssd as they were too small for our banannananananas stuff
06:29<@peter1138>mine is a kimsufi one
06:30<@peter1138>they're a bit cheaper
06:30<@peter1138>also only 100mbit, not 1gbit
06:30<@peter1138>i looked at soyoustart until i realised the price quote was for a *half* month... o_O
06:31<@planetmaker>yeah, they must have changed that. I find that... mis-leading trickery
06:31<@peter1138>it was to do with a half price offer, but it was for 2 weeks only
06:31<@planetmaker>soyoustart is ovh, btw
06:31<@peter1138>so the only price shown was the 2 week price
06:31<@peter1138>yes i know
06:32<@peter1138>as is kimsufi
06:32<@planetmaker>ah
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06:33<@peter1138>i wouldn't do serious hosting on it, but it's good enough for game servers and the like
06:34<@peter1138>now i just need to get the other people involved to cough up their part of the cost, hah
06:38<@planetmaker>@ports
06:38<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
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06:44<argoneus>oh so just remove the guards
06:44<argoneus>I'll try it thanks planetmaker
06:50<@planetmaker>argoneus, it won't help you, unless you compile all clients from the same modified source, though
06:52<argoneus>planetmaker: wait
06:52<argoneus>the clients need the exact same source?
06:53<argoneus>I thought it was enough if they both reported the same version
06:53<argoneus>and checksu--- oh
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06:56<efess>no they don't need the exact same source, you can compile client side changes and not change the version just fine
06:58-!-luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
06:59<@planetmaker>-.-
07:00<@planetmaker>and be happy about all your desyncs and stuff. And wasting our time with pointless bug reports when things go wrong with openttd which claims to be what it isn't :(
07:00<@planetmaker>please do not ever recommend that
07:01<efess>I don't recommend it, I'm just saying you can
07:01<@planetmaker>if you modify the source, be so honest to actually state that you modified it
07:01<efess>and we don't do that
07:01<@planetmaker>I know
07:01<@planetmaker>and I'm quite happy about that
07:06<efess>is there any console command that can tell you what gamescript is loaded?
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07:07<@planetmaker>try gamelog
07:10<efess>Just shows grf and savegame data, good to know about that though
07:13<@planetmaker>efess, it *should* show GS data, too... hm... maybe it doesn't, then it's a valid feature request
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07:23<Eddi|zuHause>> env x='() { :;}; echo vulnerable' bash -c "echo test"
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>bash: Warnung: x: ignoring function definition attempt
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>bash: Fehler beim Importieren der Funktionsdefinition für `x'.
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>test
07:24<LordAro>grats :)
07:25<@planetmaker>efess, please feel invited to remedy the situation and submit a patch :)
07:25<@planetmaker>maybe also as extra command
07:26<efess>I can look into it
07:27<@planetmaker>maybe two or three new commands:
07:27<@planetmaker>listactivenewgrf, listactiveai, listactivegame
07:28<@planetmaker>in similarity to listai, listgame. There's no listnewgrf yet, though
07:28<efess>we had an issue with CB, came down to the wrong cb script in the content_download folder
07:29<efess>ah
07:29<efess>it would also be useful for stats/gamestatus
07:30<@planetmaker>listing the active game script in gamelog would also be useful, yes. It's part of crashlog already
07:30<@planetmaker>but it might make sense to indicate in gamelog when / if the active GS changes or on reload is not found
07:30<@planetmaker>and which is used on start, similar to listed NewGRFs
07:31<@planetmaker>maybe you can formulate an idea on what would be nice and first have that up for discussion. There surely are some more people who might have valuable input
07:32<@planetmaker>but having some working solution first often is a good idea, too :P
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07:38<argoneus>someone on the internet just called me autistic for playing this game :(
07:40<@planetmaker>it's on the internet. Thus must be true
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08:47<fjb>Moin.
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08:53<Eddi|zuHause>i think i just screwed up my system. wish me luck :p
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08:54<@peter1138>\o/
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08:57<argoneus>I just crashed a server at work
08:57<argoneus>:(
08:58<@peter1138>...
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08:59<Eddi|zuHause>i moved my / to another disk ages ago, but i can't get the bootloader to install on this disk ./
08:59<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: what does it say?
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>"grub loading stage 1.5" and then reboot...
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09:11<@peter1138>hmm, need to patch my nas, i guess
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11:18<Jiinxs>Is it possible to change the default folder the game goes to for saving/loading games?
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>move everything, especially the openttd.cfg to a different directory, and use that as "working directory" when starting openttd
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>all default paths are relative to the location of openttd.cfg
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11:36<Jiinxs>okey, will test that out. Thanks.
11:37<Jiinxs>Started a new game. GOnna try to only use cars ;p
11:37<@Alberth>64x64 map, with firs full economy :p
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11:44<Jiinxs>I picked a huge map, I think it 2048x2048 ^^
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11:50<@Alberth>I never play bigger than 512x512
11:50<@Alberth>although with a weird size can be fun (256x1024)
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11:55<@Alberth>how much of such a large map do you actually use? Maps of that size that I have looked at are often just mainly empty
11:55<@peter1138>sparse towns :D
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>the most i got was 50% of a 1024x2048 map
12:03<@Alberth>I recently started building while paused, it makes a large difference in your speed of growth
12:03<@peter1138>cheat!
12:03<@peter1138>but okay, time does fly
12:03<@Alberth>although in the early years you lack money to do large extensions
12:04<@Alberth>the downside is that you see less trains moving around
12:05<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26923 trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp (2014-09-26 16:05:42 UTC)
12:05<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Make multiplayer lobby fit to icon size.
12:06<@peter1138>heh, 4X ui is dumb :p
12:06<@Alberth>at least you never miss the button :p
12:06<@peter1138>true, true
12:07<@peter1138>or not
12:07<@peter1138>maybe it's useful on a phone screen?
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12:09<@Alberth>for as far as openttd + phone is a useful combination ? :)
12:09<@peter1138>hmm, error windows are a bit narrow
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12:15<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26924 trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp (2014-09-26 16:15:50 UTC)
12:15<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Fit YES/NO query window buttons to window, instead of unaligned.
12:16<@peter1138>oh, it's only caps in the code, never mind ;p
12:16<@peter1138>hmm, newgrf window too high ;(
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12:20<@peter1138>hmm
12:20<@peter1138>can we put void tiles in the middle of the map?
12:21<argoneus>V453000: is there a particular reason for superstrong trains?
12:21<argoneus>my MEDIUM trains seem to be good enough for oil, even uphill
12:22<frosch123>peter1138: most likely you can, they will be unbridgeable and untunnelable
12:22<@peter1138>why does there need to be a reason?
12:22<argoneus>because I assume they were made with something in mind?
12:22<@peter1138>needing a reason leads to the peril of andythenorth
12:22<frosch123>argoneus: how long do they need to accelerator from 0 to max speed on a slope?
12:23<argoneus>why would they accelerate on a slope
12:23<frosch123>yuo can easily adjust the "good enough" to "not good enough" :p
12:23<frosch123>stopping at a signal?
12:23<argoneus>I try not to put signals before slopes
12:23<Sylf>super strong classes can take super short corners without slowing down
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12:25<argoneus>ah
12:25<argoneus>so if my trains go mostly on long plains
12:25<argoneus>then it makes sense medium is enough?
12:25<Sylf>NUTS isn't built for flat maps
12:25<Sylf>but for that, fast class is good enough
12:25<argoneus>the map isn't flat
12:26<argoneus>I made it flat :D
12:26<Sylf>that's even worse >_<
12:26<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> needing a reason leads to the peril of andythenorth <-- but the whole point of NUTS was all gameplay and no "realism"?
12:26<argoneus>I just can't really calculate in my head
12:26<argoneus>how much horsepower/tractive effort I need for my cargo
12:26<Pinkbeast>signals before slopes really caught me out in UKRS2 where the Crampton has essentially no tractive effort
12:27<Sylf>We don't really think about just enough
12:27<Sylf>for that, most NUTS engines are overpowered
12:27<Pinkbeast>argoneus: I generally start with the locomotive and fiddle the train length post-facto
12:28<Sylf>especially the later generation ones
12:28<@peter1138>hmm, status bar is a bit wierd with giant fonts
12:28<@peter1138>could do with stretch
12:28<@peter1138>ing
12:29<Sylf>compare any NUTS engines with any engines from other sets from similar years - all NUTS engines have huge TE
12:29<@Alberth>(18:20:24) peter1138: can we put void tiles in the middle of the map? <-- didn't y3xo did that one time?
12:29<@Alberth>*do
12:29<@Alberth>with his head to head version
12:31<frosch123>peter1138: make it span the whole width, and make tickers scroll vertically
12:36<@Rubidium>make its width proportional to the font size?
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>would that not be helpful for almost all windows?
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12:38<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: isn't the essential definition of a ticker that it spits out letter by letter?
12:39<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but they already scale mostly by font size in some manner. The status bar center section just gets smaller and smaller
12:40<@peter1138>yeah, most windows scale
12:40<@peter1138>just, only to text
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12:51<frosch123>if we make the ticker scroll vertically, we could also allow resizing it vertically, so the last n messages are visible
12:51<frosch123>which would maybe make it even useful
12:52<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: your ticker focuses on realism :p i prefer gameplay
12:53<@Alberth>:)
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>i'd start by making the ticker not block real news, and clicking on the ticker pop up the news history instead of the last message
12:54<@peter1138>go on then
12:54<@peter1138>i'm not making functional changes
12:54<@peter1138>just merely fixing up things to scale
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12:54<@Alberth>I don't think that helps enough, you want some sort of higher level summary instead
12:55<@Alberth>if "real news" gets delayed, the ticker news is old too, probably
12:56<@Alberth>which would suggest "too much" news
12:58<@Alberth>which is of course to be expected if you make the world larger by a factor 16 or more
13:02<argoneus>are there any disadvantages to RoRo?
13:03<Sylf>takes more space
13:03<Sylf>it can take more space*
13:03<argoneus>ah
13:03<argoneus>so if space is not an issue, I am good?
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yes. but what makes the ticker worse than "real news" is that you can't speed it up with space bar.
13:04<Sylf>and it can give a false impression that roro is the answer to all congestions
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13:04<@Alberth>but people like simple answers to problems :p
13:05<Sylf>yes, the absolute yes/no answers with no pain
13:05*Sylf starts handing out pain pills
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>those people have point-to-point lines without signals
13:05<argoneus>Sylf: well, I usually go for terminus stations with multiple separated entrances and exits
13:05<argoneus>but RoRo seems nice too
13:06<@Alberth>roro is a bit boring to build :)
13:07<argoneus>it is?
13:08<@Alberth>no traffic that encounters each other
13:08*argoneus shrugs
13:09<@Alberth>but just build what you like :)
13:10<Pinkbeast>Where something like a pax line runs both ways, a ro-ro with shared platforms in the middle is a bit more interesting.
13:13<LordAro>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=71315 <-- some database shenanigans? the "corrupted" libraries are pretty important for AI, so probably should be looked into..
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13:24<@Rubidium>LordAro: there are a lot of duplicate file names, I attempted to remove some duplicates (changing names). Seems it didn't work as expected
13:25<argoneus>well
13:25<argoneus>I just tried experimenting with a station design
13:25<argoneus>would you mind giving me your opinion on this? http://puu.sh/bOM74/d867338e26.png
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13:26<argoneus>though I should probably drop the block signals on the outgoing path
13:27<argoneus>or at least drop that one path signal there
13:28<Pinkbeast>It's not totally clear to me how trains get out of some of the platforms, or into others
13:29<argoneus>hmm
13:29<frosch123>argoneus: do you want trains from the very left platform to exit via the line on the very right?
13:29<Pinkbeast>... oh, wait, by dragging lengthways across the front of the station? Bleh.
13:29<argoneus>I should've probably alternated the exits
13:29<frosch123>and blocking all platforms by doing that?
13:29<argoneus>would alternating exits help?
13:29<argoneus>entry/exit/entry/exit
13:29<argoneus>etc
13:30<frosch123>for a start, remove some tracks :)
13:30<frosch123>give the trains less options
13:30<argoneus>I'm completely new to 2 line tracks
13:30<argoneus>with one line it's easier
13:30<frosch123>don't allow them to cross the junction in a way that blocks all lines
13:31<Pinkbeast>Also both incoming/exit lines don't have to serve all platforms
13:31<LordAro>Rubidium: woops :p
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13:35<Pinkbeast>I might - numbering the platforms 1-8 - line the incoming lines up with platforms 1 and 8, but able to access any platform (but they'll prefer to go to their own edges); align the outgoing lines with 0 and 9, so to speak, with 1-4 feeding into 0 and 5-8 feeding into 9; then use tunnels or bridges to join up the outgoing lines later.
13:36<argoneus>how about this? http://puu.sh/bOMQq/306d640ff8.png
13:37<Pinkbeast>That's more plausible. I dislike trains turning more than 45 degrees overall at station entrances; I'd build slightly bigger knitting to accomodate that.
13:38<Pinkbeast>Also the signals on the exits seem to reflect different maximum train lengths
13:38<argoneus>they are just at the junctions
13:39<Pinkbeast>But if they can be pushed back towards the station a bit without allowing a train to foul the exit pointwork, so much the better...
13:40<Pinkbeast>For example, http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/games/rennford/station-1840.png - a train never turns more than 45 degrees from the station/track axis
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13:44<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: should probably update your newstations
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26925 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-09-26 17:46:30 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>croatian - 14 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<@DorpsGek>german - 49 changes by planetmaker
13:46<@DorpsGek>spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
13:46<@DorpsGek>welsh - 3 changes by kazzie
13:46<argoneus>okay
13:46<argoneus>I came up with this Pinkbeast
13:46<argoneus>http://puu.sh/bONx8/bd3065337d.png
13:47<argoneus>is this what you meant
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>seems decent, except i would scratch the first X at the entrance and the last X at the exit
13:48<argoneus>really? why?
13:49<argoneus>I need to re-balance the lines somehow, no?
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>that is a neat idea, but crossovers at a main line never work out
13:49<Pinkbeast>Eddi|zuHause: That's an ollld screenshot
13:49<argoneus>where do I re-balance them, then?
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>you don't
13:50<Pinkbeast>argoneus: Well, I find that more aesthetically satisfying, anyway.
13:50<argoneus>huh
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>just put exactly the same number of trains on either network
13:50<Pinkbeast>If you were going to, I'd let trains from platforms 4 and 5 choose which exit line to use.
13:51<argoneus>oh
13:51<argoneus>that's a good idea
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>also, the signal gap on the exit seems too large (between the first signal and the second signal)
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>in general, the signal gap should be smaller in areas where trains accelerate
13:54<argoneus>http://puu.sh/bOO0R/b75487461a.png ?
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes, pretty much
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>now let the trains roam!
13:54<@Rubidium>LordAro: I think it should be solved now
13:55<argoneus>now to make the other station
13:55<argoneus>:D
13:55<Pinkbeast>Well, I'd still lose the "skate right across the entrance" line at a right angle to the axis.
13:55<Pinkbeast>... oh, which has come back.
13:55<argoneus>it's so they can choose a line from the other end
13:55<argoneus>but they won't prioritize that, no?
13:55<argoneus>only as last resort
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>they should NEVER go to the other end
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>that will ALWAYS cause more harm than good
13:56<argoneus>okay
13:56<argoneus>I'll just lose the perpendicular
13:56<argoneus>and then it should be ok?
13:56<Pinkbeast>Quite. Letting 4 and 5 swap over provides a bit of rebalancing, but letting 1 steam across to 8 is bleh.
13:56<argoneus>true
13:56<argoneus>that could block traffic for a long while
13:57<Pinkbeast>It depends a bit on train length, speed, and power/TE. A 9F can get a lot of coal moving, but it's not exactly a quick process. (And if trains are arriving full, or leaving)
13:58<Pinkbeast>Particularly when flattening out land, I'll flatten up for a loading station, so empties go uphill into it, but full trains run downhill when accelerating.
13:59<Pinkbeast>And even for a pax station there's something to be said for that. (The technique is used for-real on the Tube)
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14:14<andythenorth>o/
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14:17<fjb>Moin andythenorth
14:17<LordAro>/o
14:19<@peter1138>morning
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14:31<andythenorth>powered bit for road tiles?
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14:36<@peter1138>damn, why are FISH sprites so BIG?
14:37<andythenorth>you mean the ones that stick out of the canals?
14:38<andythenorth>and the depots?
14:38<andythenorth>and overlap the docks?
14:38<andythenorth>and the locks?
14:38-!-theholyduck [~theholydu@172.245.30.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:38<andythenorth>and flicker
14:38<@peter1138>i mean the sprites which are padding out with transparent pixels
14:38<andythenorth>probably didn’t set nocrop?
14:38<andythenorth>this is FISH 1?
14:39<andythenorth>or 0.9.2 or whatever
14:39<@peter1138>yeagh
14:39<@peter1138>hmm, apparently i have fish 2
14:39<@peter1138>but it doesn't appear in my list
14:40<andythenorth>needs a recent nightly ottd
14:40<andythenorth>keeps the riff-raff out
14:41<andythenorth>big bounding boxes on FISH and squids https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/entry/src/graphics/maspalomas_freighter_0.png
14:41<@Alberth>o/
14:42<@peter1138>yeah, fish 2 is better
14:42<@peter1138>fish 1 appears to have loads of blank space
14:42<@peter1138>makes the highlight weird
14:43<andythenorth>there was one version where I accidentally filled everything blue
14:43<andythenorth>and then committed :P
14:43<andythenorth>but I didn’t think that would be significant
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15:36<andythenorth>trucks trucks trucks trucks
15:36<andythenorth>and trams
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>"apple does not let its iOS testing team access the actual hardware before public release"
15:37-!-sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.26.55] has quit []
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>wtf do they test then? whether it compiles?
15:37<@Alberth>usability compliance?
15:38<andythenorth>reference platform
15:38<andythenorth>in software probably
15:38<andythenorth>or they are alleged to have reference systems in sealed boxes, with a shell over telnet or whatever
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15:58<andythenorth>quiet eh?
15:58<@peter1138>i'm hmming at ships still
15:58<andythenorth>what have they done to you?
15:58<@peter1138>well the code is there to make it scale
15:58<@peter1138>but it doesnt' :p
15:59<@peter1138>is the sprite shown the depot not the same as the depot sprite? somehow?
16:00<andythenorth>not intentionally at newgrf level
16:00<andythenorth>I don’t check where the sprite is being shown
16:00<andythenorth>Iron Horse does that for trains :P
16:01<andythenorth>bloody faff
16:01<@peter1138>do you have separate sprites for depot?
16:01<@peter1138>and/or purchase list sprites
16:02*andythenorth checks in Squid
16:02<@peter1138>yeah
16:02<@peter1138>different purchase list sprites
16:03<andythenorth>uses a purchase spriteset
16:03<andythenorth>which probably resolves to different realsprites or something
16:03<andythenorth>nml is magical
16:03<@peter1138>only for purchase?
16:03<@peter1138>or for purchase & depot?
16:03<andythenorth>only purchase afaict
16:03<andythenorth>no reason to muck about with depot
16:03<@peter1138>not sure why depot exists
16:04<andythenorth>for ships, no idea
16:04<andythenorth>trains it’s needed
16:04<@peter1138>why?
16:04<andythenorth>can’t remember the original reason, but me and Eddi|zuHause use it for magical 3-part train bollocks
16:04<andythenorth>because articulated trains don’t work properly in depot
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16:04<andythenorth>it’s a right faff
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: invisible front parts are difficult to drag around
16:07<@peter1138>well i'm pretty sure ships 2 is using purchase list sprites for depot sprites
16:07<@peter1138>which means the depot cell size isn't big enough
16:07<andythenorth>might be what nml does
16:07<andythenorth>or I screwed up
16:07<@peter1138>yeah it might be that if you have purchase list sprites it automatically does that
16:07<andythenorth>blearch :)
16:08<@peter1138>bad feature!
16:08<@peter1138>well, i might just clip it, like that done for trains & RVs
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16:12<andythenorth>this RV buy menu is getting big
16:12<andythenorth>51 vehicles now
16:12<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE
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16:16<@peter1138>now play with vehicles that expire
16:19<andythenorth>shocking idea
16:24<andythenorth>4x zoom is so bracing
16:24<andythenorth>also useful for checking sprites
16:24<@peter1138>2x UI is rather spiffing!
16:24<@peter1138>I deny just being old...
16:24-!-Hazzard [~quassel@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
16:25<andythenorth>I am old
16:26<@peter1138>Sure
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16:43<@peter1138>woo, it crashed
16:45<andythenorth>hmm
16:45<andythenorth>expiring vehicles
16:53-!-smith1232 [~a@93-138-4-203.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #openttd
16:55<smith1232>hi, all. i am trying to setup a dedicated server behind a router. for some reason, nmap says tcp 3979 is open (service smwan), but udp 3979 is open|filtered (service unknown). does anyone have a clue as to what might be the case here?
16:56<@planetmaker>@ports
16:56<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
16:57<smith1232>yeah, i have all of those open in my port forwarding router settings.
16:57<smith1232>but something is obviously incorrect, have no idea what.
16:58<smith1232>granted, my router is a piece of junk.
16:58<@Rubidium>doesn't filtered imply that it's firewalled?
16:58<smith1232>open|filtered means nmap doesnt know.
16:58<smith1232>but yes, filtered would be firewalled.
16:58<smith1232>and it is not.
16:58<@Rubidium>also, many routers' forwarding only works from outside to the inside, not from inside to inside
16:58<@Rubidium>or at least the cheap broadband ones ISPs give
16:58<smith1232>let me try to explain: iptables is letting everything through, the firewall on the router is off.
16:59<smith1232>of course, i am trying to access the game "from the outside"
16:59<smith1232>not really, but i am using the outside ip of the router
16:59<smith1232>which should mean that the packets go out and back, right?
16:59<@peter1138>no
16:59<@Rubidium>yeah, so if you're on the "inside"... then it's likely not going to work
16:59<smith1232>hm
17:00<smith1232>could someone help me test then?
17:00<@Rubidium>is it advertising?
17:00<smith1232>no
17:00<smith1232>i would give you the ip
17:00<@Rubidium>enable that, if it shows up at servers.openttd.org then it works (or at least the UDP)
17:01<smith1232>ok, lemme go ahead and do that
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17:03<smith1232>hm, there seems to be no advertise flag for the server.
17:03<smith1232>do i need an openttd.cfg for that?
17:03<smith1232>because there is none
17:03<smith1232>(i mean in cli, there is no switch)
17:05<@Rubidium>it's a setting in the config file (shutdown the server before editing it)
17:06<smith1232>there is no file
17:06<andythenorth>fancy
17:06<smith1232>when you unpack the 1.4.3 archive
17:06<smith1232>i need to create it i suppose?
17:06*andythenorth uses _private attributes
17:07<@Rubidium>like the readme says, it'll likely be in ~/.openttd/
17:07<smith1232>no
17:07<smith1232>i unpacked the file i downloaded from the site
17:07<smith1232>lemme see which...
17:08<smith1232>http://binaries.openttd.org/releases/1.4.3/openttd-1.4.3-linux-generic-amd64.tar.gz
17:08<smith1232>hm
17:08<smith1232>yeah, i did that since i had gentoo earlier on that puter
17:08<smith1232>maybe i should just install the ubuntu thing now
17:08<smith1232>i am running ubuntu server on there
17:08<@Rubidium>still... ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg
17:09<smith1232>i do have that. but i think that's only because i have the old version installed
17:09<smith1232>i did that to get all the dependencies
17:09<smith1232>without having to worry
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17:09<smith1232>still, i suppose the new version that is only unpacked reads that anyway.
17:09<smith1232>do you think its a problem that the .cfg is from an older version?
17:09<@Rubidium>smith1232: what does the readme say about it?
17:10<smith1232>i think 1.3.smth?
17:10*Rubidium is off to bed
17:10<andythenorth>also bedtime
17:11<andythenorth>bye
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17:11<smith1232>thanks for your help Rubidium
17:11<smith1232>night guys
17:12<smith1232>if anyone else can help me, that would be awesome
17:13<argoneus>>want to look up how to make a simple sideline hub
17:13<argoneus>>go to wiki
17:13<argoneus>>it's complex
17:14<smith1232>yep, udp works
17:15<smith1232>i.e. my server is now advertised
17:15<smith1232>however, i see it as within my household
17:15<smith1232>which is probably not that strange
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18:58<argoneus>how do wetrails work?
18:58<argoneus>I thought you could place them on water :(
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19:10<Eddi|zuHause>no. they just look like water. for the game they work like rails, so they must be placed on land
19:12<argoneus>oh
19:14<argoneus>also
19:14<argoneus>the bottom part of this
19:14<argoneus>http://puu.sh/bPb3u/688ef328dd.png
19:15<argoneus>why is there the unreachable part with the combo signals?
19:15<argoneus>wouldn't doublesided combo signals work?
19:15<argoneus>without special shenanigans
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>no, because they would effectively increase the signal distance
19:15<argoneus>don't they behave as block signals in the direction where no entry signal is specified?
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>the combo signal is both an entry and an exit signal
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>so when one is red, all are red
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>in both directions
19:16<argoneus>oh
19:16<argoneus>so if I have onesided entry signal, and twosided combo signal
19:17<argoneus>then if entry is red, both combo are red?
19:17<argoneus>I thought it only worked in the one way
19:17<argoneus>ohhhh
19:17<argoneus>it behaves as an entry signal in the one direction
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19:46<argoneus>is there a reason why there cannot be signal type A in one direction and signal type B in another direction?
19:46<argoneus>is it difficult to implement?
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>that would mean in a tile with || or = rails, there are 4 different signals on it
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>needs too many bits
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>also, it's fiddly
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>and nobody uses block signals anyway
19:48<argoneus>I d o :(
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19:50<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: so you would need 12*4 bits for each tile?
19:50<argoneus>just for signals
19:50<argoneus>er
19:50<argoneus>12*2*4
19:51<argoneus>^ nevermind
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>3 bits for signal type, 1 bit for signal state, 1 bit for style
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>1 bit for whether the signal is present
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>so 6*4
19:53<argoneus>so if you wanted to do it separately
19:53<argoneus>you would need 3! * 2 for signal type?
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>that makes no sense
19:53<argoneus>I mean, 12 values
19:53<argoneus>which is, 4 bits
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19:53<Eddi|zuHause>there are 8 signal types (2 unused)
19:54<argoneus>ah
19:54<argoneus>and if you were to cover all combinations
19:54<argoneus>it'd be many more
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>the combinations are with repetition, so 8^4
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>plus style, etc.
19:56<argoneus>oh, right
19:56<argoneus>I need to remove the dust on my combinatorics
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20:21<borbra>hi
20:22<borbra>why don't my trains go to the given trainstation? http://i.imgur.com/w5skL7w.png
20:22<borbra>it's in the orderlist, but the just seem to ignore it
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>missing electrification
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20:24<borbra>Eddi|zuHause: now just feel stupid -_-
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>happens to the best of us :p
20:25<borbra>hehe
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21:19<TorCoolguy>Hi
21:19<TorCoolguy>my openttd install on mac os x 10.5.8 is not working, I have opengfx installed, but every time I launch openttd it just quits unexpectedly
21:20<TorCoolguy>opengfx is in ~/Documents/OpenTTD/data
21:22<argoneus>shouldn't opengfx be in the baseset folder?
21:22<argoneus>(assuming there is one on mac)
21:23<TorCoolguy>I tried that too
21:23<TorCoolguy>~/Documents/OpenTTD/basenet
21:23<TorCoolguy>right?
21:23<argoneus>baseset, yes
21:23<TorCoolguy>that's where it is?
21:23<argoneus>yes
21:23<TorCoolguy>good, I have it there
21:23<TorCoolguy>It's supposed to be unpacked, and not in a folder right?
21:23<argoneus>I have it packed
21:24<argoneus>but it shouldn't matter
21:24<TorCoolguy>in a tar?
21:24<argoneus>just dropping the tar into the folder is enough
21:24<TorCoolguy>or in a zip?
21:24<TorCoolguy>should it be called anything?
21:24<argoneus>don't think it matters
21:24<TorCoolguy>still doesn't work :(
21:24<TorCoolguy>OpenTTD 1.4.1 works though, from macports
21:24<argoneus>I have never used mac sorry :<
21:25<argoneus>but on linux it's pretty much extract & run
21:25<TorCoolguy>:(
21:25<TorCoolguy>Sucks...
21:25<argoneus>why macports?
21:25<argoneus>the universal build from website doesn't work?
21:25<TorCoolguy>Yeah it doesn't
21:25<TorCoolguy>Trying to compile it right now
21:25<TorCoolguy>Taking a while since I'm also compiling qt4
21:25<TorCoolguy>and I'm on a powermac g5.
21:29<TorCoolguy>argoneus: should the 1.4.1 and 1.4.3 version of OpenTTD be compatible through multiplayer?
21:29<argoneus>nope
21:30<argoneus>you would get a version mismatch
21:30<TorCoolguy>argoneus: Aw
21:30<TorCoolguy>argoneus: At least that explains that problem.
21:33<TorCoolguy>argoneus: what should I do about this error though?
21:35<argoneus>I have no clue, I have never used a mac :<
21:36<TorCoolguy>argoneus: anyone around here uses macs?
21:37<argoneus>no clue
21:38<TorCoolguy>:(
21:38<+glx>why not use the osx version directely ?
21:39<TorCoolguy>I am
21:39<TorCoolguy>doesn't work
21:40<TorCoolguy>glx: It just immediatly quits, I have openglx in the right place
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21:42<+glx>try to start it from a terminal, to see if there's an error message
21:43<TorCoolguy>glx: LSOpenFromURLSpec() failed with error -10810 for the file /Users/.../openttd.app
21:48<TorCoolguy>glx: any ideas?
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21:53<+glx>that's the code for unknown error
21:53<+glx>so launcher fails to start openttd for unknown reason
21:53<TorCoolguy>glx: Yep
21:53<TorCoolguy>glx: When I start openttd directly from inside the package I get a bus error
21:58<argoneus>Xaroth / Xaroth|Work : how did you figure out that you need to force the struct to be little endian?
21:58<argoneus>(libottdadmin2)
21:58<+glx>TorCoolguy: I don't know what could be wrong and I'm not an OSX specialist
21:59<TorCoolguy>glx: :L
21:59<TorCoolguy>glx: who is?
21:59<+glx>most of them are sleeping at that time
21:59<TorCoolguy>I got 1.4.3 to run
21:59<TorCoolguy>I had to build it
22:01<+glx>maybe a broken ppc lib on the compile farm then
22:04<TorCoolguy>hmm maybe
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22:05<+glx>looks like the comments in http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5694
22:08<TorCoolguy>yeps
22:08<argoneus>when I create a dedicated serveron my machine
22:08<argoneus>should it be accessible on 127.0.0.1?
22:08<+glx>argoneus: yes
22:08<TorCoolguy>OpenMSX doesn't work though :(
22:08<TorCoolguy>No music
22:12<TorCoolguy>gix: the music from the online content doesn't work
22:12<TorCoolguy>glx: I downloaded openmsx...
22:13<+glx>player is started ?
22:13<TorCoolguy>yes
22:14<+glx>argoneus: unless you modified server_bind_ip in cfg
22:15<argoneus>didn't
22:16<+glx>so it listen on all available IP
22:16<+glx>and localhost is one of them :)
22:18<+glx>TorCoolguy: and it's selected in the options ?
22:18<TorCoolguy>glx: yes
22:21<+glx>it works for me
22:21<TorCoolguy>glx: :(
22:22<+glx>but I'm on windows so that says nothing
22:22<TorCoolguy>yeah...
22:22<TorCoolguy>It works in 1.4.1 though
22:22<+glx>maybe a missing lib in your custom build
22:23<TorCoolguy>:(
22:23<TorCoolguy>like what?
22:24<TorCoolguy>sound still works.
22:24<+glx>better wait for someone knowing more than me
22:24<TorCoolguy>mkay
22:24<TorCoolguy>I can still play though :D
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 27 00:00:28 2014