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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-27

---Logopened Sat Sep 27 00:00:28 2014
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01:56<andythenorth>o/
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02:02<@Rubidium>moin andythenorth
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02:11<andythenorth>given a dict of year: speed mappings, e.g. {1920: 35, 1940: 55}
02:11<andythenorth>what’s the most elegant way to return the speed for say, 1927?
02:11<andythenorth>I’ve thought of a couple of ugly ways based on sorting the keys and doing comparisons
02:12<andythenorth>there’s probably a lambda or a recursion or something that’s neater
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02:25<andythenorth>print foo[max([i for i in foo if bar >= i])] seems to work
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02:30<Flygon>...
02:30<Flygon>...dunno why I fixed that nick when I am rebooting in 10 minutes
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02:38<@Rubidium>andythenorth: http://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/tutorial/interpolate.html#d-interpolation-interp1d ?
02:42<andythenorth>ho splines and stuff
02:50<andythenorth>hmm
02:50<andythenorth>something you look up per group isn’t really a global constant
02:51*andythenorth mumble mumble
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03:08<Pikka>well
03:12<andythenorth>yes
03:12<andythenorth>you has blagged boots also
03:12<Pikka>bragged bloots?
03:13<andythenorth>indeed
03:14<Pikka>whither?
03:15<andythenorth>so it’s all about refittability?
03:16<Pikka>well, that's my thinking. about refittablility and size.
03:17<andythenorth>makes sense
03:17<Pikka>I mean really we only need one ship
03:17<Pikka>but I don't think players will stand for that
03:18<Supercheese>or sit for it
03:18<Supercheese>or even lie down
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03:18<Pikka>so, big bulkers and tankers for the mine and oil rig runs
03:18<Pikka>and smaller widely-refittable ships for everything else
03:18<Pikka>job done
03:18<@Alberth>aye
03:20<andythenorth>also tug log
03:20<Pikka>no lug togs, neither fishing boats. :P at least not for me.
03:20<andythenorth>shameful
03:20<andythenorth>how do you catch the hake?
03:20<Pikka>with a trader, probably
03:21<Pikka>or a container ship if they're piece or express :D
03:21<andythenorth>zellepin
03:21<Pikka>zellepin trader
03:22<Pikka>http://pikkarail.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/ballastplan1.png Alberth. plenty o' boats.
03:22<Pikka>dan was asking the other day about the hovercarfairy, andythenorth. are you shipping it over to him for pixelwork?
03:23<andythenorth>that’s an idea
03:23<andythenorth>was going to do it myself
03:23<andythenorth>Water Bus?
03:23<Pikka>little river ferry type of thing
03:23<Pikka>vaporetto
03:23<andythenorth>DUKW
03:23<Pikka>nein
03:24<@Alberth>all the years seem a bit same-ish, no?
03:24<andythenorth>LCACV BARC DUKW 130-20
03:24*andythenorth makes things up
03:24*Alberth stops decoding
03:24<andythenorth>I did consider a self-propelled pontoon last week
03:24<andythenorth>silly
03:24<Pikka>same-ish?
03:24<@Alberth>a yeti dude could push it :)
03:25*V453000 places a question what the fuck is andythenorth talking about :D
03:25<@Alberth>all steam ends at 2000, large -> super all at 2015
03:25<@Alberth>V453000: maybe he doesn't know himself either :)
03:26<Pikka>there's a few generations which all come out around the same year, sure. but that's fine. :)
03:26<Pikka>at least it's not all 1870 ;)
03:26<@Alberth>indeed, they'd be unused for the first 40 years :p
03:27<andythenorth>V453000: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCAC
03:27<andythenorth>BARC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LARC-LX
03:27<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUKW
03:27<andythenorth>nonsenses
03:27<V453000>asdf
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03:28<Pikka>well, that's just a general idea of when they'd disappear from the buy list
03:28<@Alberth>make a silly-vehicles newgrf :)
03:28<V453000>me is creating 8bpp sprites because I discovered tha apparently the amount of retards using 8bpp blitter is not low :D
03:28<V453000>not to mention that it can help with cpu heaviness
03:28<Pikka>chances are players would stop using those ships long before then :)
03:28<V453000>Pikka: does pineapple have proper 8bpp ? :D
03:29<V453000>yeti had just "8bpp placeholders" till now
03:29<Pikka>define "proper 8bpp"
03:29<@Alberth>Pikka: fair enough :)
03:29<Pikka>if "proper 8bpp" means "every sprite is a 16 pixel square", then yes.
03:29<V453000>I rather meant "will stuff show properly if someone forces 8bpp blitter"
03:29<Pikka>again
03:29<Pikka>"properly"? ;)
03:30<V453000>well yeti industries e.g. have only 1 tile repeated 16 times :D
03:30<V453000>some of them anyway
03:30<@Alberth>you can see it's a WTF industry? :)
03:30<V453000>that is what I would call "not proper" :P
03:30<@planetmaker>moin moin
03:30<V453000>aka broken as shit
03:30<@Alberth>hi hi
03:30<V453000>hi pm
03:31<Pikka>http://i.imgur.com/gHfLOih.png <- would you call every sprite being that "proper"?
03:31<Pikka>because that's what pineapple does :)
03:31<@Alberth>V453000: make a sign "here you can see a beautiful factory if you use 32bpp"
03:31<V453000>XD
03:31<V453000>XD
03:31<V453000>XD
03:31<V453000>XD
03:31<V453000>well done Pikka I like it XD
03:32<@planetmaker>I actually like alberth's suggestion :)
03:33*Pikka must went
03:33<Pikka>back in some
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03:33*Alberth hopes it's not 'years'
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03:44<V453000>what could be causing this? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/51134233/refinery.png
03:44<V453000>the tiles are terraformed to be lowered under the industry
03:44<andythenorth>foundations
03:44<V453000>so there are hilly things
03:44<V453000>hm
03:45<V453000>what do?
03:45<andythenorth>it’s probably the rear foundation sprite that gets drawn
03:45<andythenorth>can’t remember what I do to solve it
03:45<andythenorth>quite common
03:45<V453000>hmz
03:45<V453000>I will drop shit on it for now
03:45<andythenorth>move the ground tile
03:45<V453000>like move it down?
03:45<V453000>by offset?
03:46<andythenorth>yes
03:46<andythenorth>right / up
03:46<andythenorth>looks like it’s too far left anyway
03:46<V453000>hm
03:46<andythenorth>the LH foundations are covered up
03:46<V453000>yeah
03:46<V453000>sooo 1 to the right?
03:46<andythenorth>in FIRS I just shuffle them around until they look right in game
03:46<andythenorth>try it with sprite aligner first
03:47<V453000>rite
03:47<andythenorth>maybe you can’t bodge us much with EZ, dunno
03:47<andythenorth>us / as /s
03:47<V453000>well yeah x4 is a bit ass in this
03:47<V453000> / a bit / fucking lot
03:48<andythenorth>I’m not jealous
03:48<V453000>:d
03:48<andythenorth>it probably is worth the effort, but eh
03:48<andythenorth>there are plenty of cute looking pixel games on ipad, my kids like them
03:48<V453000>both things are a lot of effort, both give different output, I wouldnt compare it much
03:49<andythenorth>and they’re all zoomed up from iphone size
03:49<V453000>I personally like working with 3D very much lately, hence this
03:49<andythenorth>you didn’t consider voxels?
03:49<andythenorth>o_O
03:49<V453000>lol
03:49-!-Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:50<andythenorth>I am serious :P
03:50<andythenorth>http://voxelbuilder.com
03:51<V453000>:)
03:51<V453000>lego
03:52<andythenorth>http://voxel.codeplex.com
03:52<V453000>I am getting my brain demolished by reading quite complex character animation books lately so even seeing the critter makes my brain explode
03:52<V453000>it looks interesting, I will give them that :P
03:52<V453000>in fact most of yeti objects are boxes, t oo
03:52<andythenorth>http://sproxel.blogspot.co.uk
03:52<V453000>I kind of feel it fits the tile nature of openttd
03:53<andythenorth>ho that one has python plugins
03:53<V453000>._.
03:53<andythenorth>http://mrdoob.com/projects/voxels/#A/aefafeakkUhUhUhUh
03:54<V453000>STAHP :D
03:55<andythenorth>might have to try that later….
03:55<andythenorth>dunno about drawing that for 1x zoom
03:55<andythenorth>pixel art relies on loads of cheats
03:55<V453000>3D GOGO
03:55<andythenorth>as soon as it is actual cubes, it won’t work right
03:56<andythenorth>most of the time with pixels, what you’re seeing isn’t what’s drawn
03:56<V453000>kind of
03:56<andythenorth>light and dark
03:56<andythenorth>colour blends
03:56<andythenorth>cheating the shapes
03:56<V453000>just creating illusion to make the player perceive what you want him to
03:56<V453000>yes kind of :)
03:56<andythenorth>also voxels are iso not di
03:57<andythenorth>or even perspective
03:57<andythenorth>PITA
03:57<andythenorth>to change the renderer
03:57<V453000>:D
03:57<V453000>you just change camera
03:57<V453000>not renderer
03:57<V453000>one check "orthographic camera"
03:57<V453000>done
03:57<andythenorth>that simple eh?
03:57<andythenorth>winner
03:57<V453000>that simple.
03:57<@planetmaker>othographic? Not dimetric?
03:57<andythenorth>imagine trying to do a cylinder with voxels
03:58<andythenorth>for tank wagon
03:58<andythenorth>won’t work
03:58<andythenorth>works in pixels
03:58<V453000>3ds max calls it orthographic pm :)
03:58<V453000>the shit without perspective. :P
03:59<V453000>I honestly never heard word dimetric in 3D either
03:59<V453000>I dont know which is the technically proper term
03:59<@planetmaker>V453000, there's a difference between orthographic and dimetric
04:00<V453000>and isometric?
04:01<V453000>well 3D max calls it Orthographic viewport, anda camera has Orthographic projection :)
04:01<@Alberth>dimetric is the angle to get the x/y/z axes in a 2/1 size
04:01<@Alberth>+ orthographic
04:01<V453000>so isometric with 30deg angle
04:01<V453000>orthographic yeah
04:01<V453000>mixing up words .D
04:02<@Alberth>isometric is wider than dimetric, it means "map 3d to 2d"
04:03<V453000>idontgetit
04:03<V453000>BUT my sprites work :D -> win
04:03<@Alberth>ie x:y:z = 1:1:1 is also isometric
04:03<@planetmaker>both are parallel projections. As is isometric. the angles different
04:03<V453000>right
04:03<andythenorth>bbl
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04:03<V453000>but everything is orthographic :P
04:04<@Alberth>dimetric is also an isometric projection, but such that x:y:z = 2:2:1
04:04<V453000>y
04:04<V453000>the 3D just sets that through camera angle / relative difference from camera target
04:04<@Alberth>orthographic is "without perspective", ie lines stay parallel
04:04<V453000>yes exactly
04:05<@peter1138>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axonometric_projection#mediaviewer/File:Graphical_projection_comparison.png
04:06<V453000>yarr
04:06<V453000>which seems like openttd uses isometric
04:07<@peter1138>nope, isometric doesn't allow the nice 2:1 diagonal lines
04:07<@planetmaker>no, dimetric
04:07<V453000>ok :D
04:07<V453000>my shit works under 30deg ortho, end of discussion :P
04:07<V453000>:D
04:07<@peter1138>is it dimetric because one of the angles is different
04:08<@peter1138>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric_graphics_in_video_games_and_pixel_art
04:09<Supercheese>No Transport Tycoon in that article, boo
04:09*Supercheese debates editing
04:09<@planetmaker>If I understand it correctly, dimetric is a special isometric projection which in turn is a special orthogonal projection
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04:10<Supercheese>Whoops, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Tycoon says isometric
04:10<@planetmaker>you should edit it, Supercheese :)
04:10*Supercheese is confused
04:10<Supercheese>which is it really?
04:10<@planetmaker>dimetric as there are two different angles
04:10<@peter1138>when talking about computer games, it's commonly referred to as "isometric"
04:11<@peter1138>however, if you're actually drawing graphics for it, you need to know the different
04:11<V453000>Supercheese: write there "render shit under 30deg and be done with it" :P
04:11<Supercheese>haha
04:13<@peter1138>Yeah, top right of the last one I linked says 30°
04:14<V453000>Camera setup First has been created a spline under 30° slope, setting the camera to Ortographic, and moving it along the spline until I got somewhat optimal result. The resulting coordinates of the camera relative the the center point of the 4x4 industry are: [41,9 | -41,9 | 34,211] Camera Target is at the center point, so [0 | 0 | 0].
04:14<V453000>:P
04:14<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/yeti/wiki/Tech
04:14<@Alberth>problem solved :)
04:14<Supercheese>Seems to agree with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia_dimetric_cube_3.jpg
04:14<@peter1138>don't forget to apply your tile edge mask
04:14<@peter1138>:p
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04:14<V453000>peter1138: ? :D it is quite important.
04:15<@peter1138>Yeah, those antialiased tile edges suck
04:15<@peter1138>(I wrote analised first time :S)
04:15<V453000>then dont make fun of it :P everybody should do that tbh
04:15<V453000>if they create ground tiles that is
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04:19<@peter1138>I'm not making fun of it!
04:20<@peter1138>I'm sure last time I mentioned it was said that it was too much hassle to bother with.
04:20<V453000>tis easy :)
04:22<V453000>takes ~2 hours to set up
04:22<V453000>and then everything renders automatically
04:22<V453000>2 hours max
04:24<@peter1138>I suppose applying it to zBase would be a lot of effort?
04:24<V453000>well yes because zbase is rendered already being cut
04:24<@peter1138>There is source, isn't there?
04:24<V453000>yes
04:24<@peter1138>So possible, just effort.
04:25<V453000>you would have to rework all cameras
04:25<V453000>sure, possible it is
04:25<@peter1138>:S
04:25<@peter1138>Mind you, TTD original still looks best to me :p
04:25<V453000>+ do some extra modeling on things that are models of single tiles
04:25<V453000>TTD original is best, no question
04:25<V453000>professional artwork, nuff said
04:26<@Rubidium>peter1138: which TTD original? DOS (non German), German DOS or Windows?
04:26<@peter1138>Er... is there much difference?
04:26<@Rubidium>not much, but there are differences
04:27<Supercheese>oh?
04:27<@Rubidium>mostly in bugged sprites and fewer colours in Windows
04:27<@Rubidium>bugged sprites in one of the DOS ones
04:27<@peter1138>Oh yes, the palette difference.
04:27<@planetmaker>why would you need to rework all *cameras*, V453000 ?
04:28<V453000>pm because they are animating among tiles and have a special cutting matte object
04:28<V453000>I looked
04:28<@Rubidium>though... for OpenTTD we overwrite the bugged sprites with openttd.grf
04:28<@Rubidium>see media/extra/fix_graphics.*
04:28<@peter1138>Damn, these sprite offsets are terrible...
04:29<V453000>e.g. industries are made the way that a camera has 16 animated positions, each being rendered separately, with an extra object that animates with the camera and hides things so that each tile renders separately
04:29<V453000>which is completely opposite to what I am doing
04:29<V453000>and I am not aware that 3D render could have precise non-antialiased full-alpha edges
04:30<V453000>perhaps it can
04:31<V453000>-> solution is to create a new camera which simply looks at the whole model and render it as a whole, cut it in postproduction
04:32<@planetmaker>yeah
04:32<V453000>but lets face it, point of zbase was to make a point that 32bpp works
04:32<V453000>not make it perfect
04:32<liq3>zbase looks awful. :<
04:32<Supercheese>sadly, yeah
04:32<V453000>it does, but it made people even consider 32bpp/ez
04:33<liq3>Yeh, 32bpp could look great if someone put the work in.
04:33<@planetmaker>it fulfilled and fulfills its purpose
04:33<V453000>as for me, it rather made me scared that it is not possible to easily and feasibly to create renders which look nice in OpenTTD
04:33<V453000>but all just a matter of trying :)
04:33<liq3>YETI's industries look good.
04:33<V453000>they will look even better later
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04:34<juzza1>you can get non-aa edges in blender, but it will still fail because the tile height is "wrong" in openttd (31 px instead of 32)
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04:34<V453000>okay :)
04:35<V453000>doing all that in postproduction is sufficiently immune to similar hacks :P
04:35<V453000>I am not even mentioning that animating camera means it is considerably more problematic to create something that animates on normal time scale
04:35-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
04:36<Wolf01>hi hi
04:37<@peter1138>juzza1, not possible to "fix" that
04:37<@peter1138>juzza1, it's not especially "wrong" anyway
04:39<V453000>the stretched side views make bigger problem anyway :P
04:39<@planetmaker>the vehicle size change along axes is more wrong ;)
04:39<@peter1138>Yeah :D
04:40<Supercheese>apparently money also changes size along with the vehicles :P
04:41<@planetmaker>:P
04:41<juzza1>peter1138: it's not 2:1, so in that sense it's wrong. But i was not suggesting it should be fixed, merely stated why straight non-aa rendering of tiles will likely fail
04:43<Supercheese>Special relativity as applied to OTTD. γ = (1 / (1 - v²/c²)^0.5 ) * cos θ :P
04:43<V453000>lol what the fuck
04:43<Supercheese>that did not turn out formatted well
04:43<V453000>30deg be done with it is all I am saying :D
04:43<Wolf01>it's edible?
04:43<@planetmaker>drinkable
04:44<Wolf01>good, I like to swallow math formulas, but no every one is edible
04:44<Wolf01>*not
04:44<Supercheese>it is rather difficult to stick formulae into here :S
04:45<@planetmaker>the rendering didn't went too badly really, Supercheese
04:46<@planetmaker>(in other words: with plain text and only utf8 and one font size and height you can't do better)
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04:47<Wolf01>Oh, I have a question: why is the backspace key in the OSK pointing the wrong direction?
04:47<@planetmaker>maybe your arabic ancestry?
04:48<Wolf01>how does OTTD know?
04:48<@peter1138>Wrong direction?
04:49<Wolf01>it points right, ehm, right is wrong... man, it's like define true = false
04:49<@peter1138>Not for me...
04:49<@planetmaker>an image says more than 1000 words?
04:49<Wolf01>wait
04:49<@peter1138>Only if I pick an RTL language.
04:50-!-Cybert1nus is now known as Cybertinus
04:50<Wolf01>maybe is my laptop
04:50<@planetmaker>hm, how did I get the osk? :D
04:50-!-sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.26.55] has quit []
04:51<@peter1138>Double click on a text input box, by default.
04:51<Wolf01>double click on a text field
04:51<@planetmaker>ah. Well. It points left for me
04:51<@peter1138>But that is configurable, of course.
04:51<Wolf01>ok, updating to the nightly is good now
04:52<Wolf01>with 1.4.3 it was wrong
04:52<keoz>plop
04:52<@peter1138>It's not wrong in 1.4.3.
04:52<Wolf01>no, it's still wrong
04:52<Wolf01>try in the savegame window
04:53<Wolf01>[OK ][CANCEL][=> ]
04:53<@peter1138>...
04:53<@planetmaker>not for me
04:53<Wolf01>instead of [OK ][CANCEL][ <=]
04:53<@peter1138>Should be [Cancel][Ok ][<= ]
04:54<@peter1138>What language are you using?
04:54<Wolf01>english
04:54<V453000>got x1/8bpp support almost done (:
04:55<@planetmaker>it's the same for me with [ <= ] for trunk and 1.4.3
04:55<@peter1138>Wolf01, if you open a vehicle window, do you have the buttons on the left or right?
04:55<Wolf01>all the in-game OSK are wrong, but in the title screen they are correct
04:56<Wolf01>on the right
04:57<Wolf01>all looks fine, except the backspace
04:57<Wolf01>maybe it could be related to the bigGUI
04:57<@peter1138>Well no, your buttons are the wrong way around.
04:58<@peter1138>[Cancel][Ok ][=> ]
04:58<@peter1138>(not ok cancel =>)
04:58<@peter1138>So yes, BigGUI is broken.
04:59<Wolf01>good
05:01<@peter1138>And it'll look silly with 2x UI I bet :D
05:03<Wolf01>is it already in trunk?
05:03<@peter1138>It's been there ever since 4x zoom was added, as a define in a header file.
05:04<@peter1138>Albeit some windows aren't rendered correctly.
05:08<Wolf01>do I need to enable it somewhere?
05:09<Wolf01>because without bigGUI almost every widget is too small
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05:19<@peter1138>Silly Thom Yorke, I'm not paying money for MP3s :S
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05:21<@peter1138>Hmm, he's look unhealthy in this video...
05:21<@peter1138>+ing
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05:30<@peter1138>Hmm, BigGUI doesn't have a shadow on the close X
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05:45<andythenorth>hmm
05:46<Wolf01>o/
05:46<andythenorth>what are the problems with station-at-industry-tiles?
05:46<andythenorth>e.g. oil rig etc
05:46<@peter1138>interesting cargo routing ;p
05:46<andythenorth>they’re hokey?
05:46<Wolf01>except fishing grounds accepting helicopters without a landing pad?
05:51<andythenorth>do they have a catchment?
05:51<andythenorth>or is it only the industry
05:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26926 trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp (2014-09-27 09:53:48 UTC)
05:53<@DorpsGek>-Change: limit flat world height to the maximum configured map height
05:54<andythenorth>wondering if I can make a 1 tile docks industry
05:54<andythenorth>which is just a station
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06:02<@peter1138>distcc[22512] (dcc_zeroconf_add_hosts) CRITICAL! failed to parse host file.
06:02<@peter1138>this is annoying :(
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06:05<@peter1138>maybe i should just hardcode it :S
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06:08<@peter1138>PIKKA
06:09<Pikkaphone>YES?
06:09<@peter1138>that's all
06:09<Pikkaphone>Oh okay
06:09<@peter1138>hmm, ship drawing odd in ship list...
06:13<@peter1138>Oh, ah, it's space for the order list, which was blank because I had no orders, hah.
06:13<Pikkaphone>splendid
06:14<andythenorth>Pikkaphone phone home
06:15<andythenorth>hmm
06:15<andythenorth>logging tram or logging truc
06:15<andythenorth>truck *
06:15<Pikkaphone>who even has a home phone these days?
06:15<Pikkaphone>logging dukw
06:15<Pikkaphone>logging helicopter
06:16<Pikkaphone>logging hovercraft
06:17<andythenorth>logging lcac-barf
06:17<Pikkaphone>trucks rather than trams I thonk
06:19<Pikkaphone>or horse drawn zellepin
06:19<andythenorth>trucks for brit
06:19<andythenorth>horse drawn flying trams for america, australias
06:21<@peter1138>I have a home phone!
06:22<Pikkaphone>you would
06:23<@peter1138>Mainly because ADSL comes via the phone line, so...
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06:27<frosch123>hola
06:31<Pikkaphone>aloh
06:32<andythenorth>logging tram
06:32<andythenorth>http://www.gearedsteam.com/climax/images/olympia_lbr_co.jpg
06:33<andythenorth>needs roadtypes
06:33<andythenorth>(look at the wheels)
06:33<Pikkaphone>si
06:35<@planetmaker>hola
06:35<Pikkaphone>better get on with it, then :D
06:36<andythenorth>bloody roadtypes
06:36<andythenorth>is there room to just have a tile-is-powered bit instead :P
06:36<andythenorth>tram, electric tram, road, electrified road
06:36<andythenorth>done
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06:37<Pikkaphone>what about dirt roads and cobbles and all that nonsense
06:37<Pikkaphone>and futuristic super highways
06:37<Pikkaphone>these are important feature requests
06:38<andythenorth>yes
06:38<andythenorth>they will certainly enhance gameplay
06:38<andythenorth>one day
06:39<Pikkaphone>and industrial Birmingham canals
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06:39<Pikkaphone>and medieval trackways
06:40<Pikkaphone>and ancient druidic leylines
06:40<Pikkaphone>for the use of ancient druidic leylands
06:41<andythenorth>also
06:41<andythenorth>and we could have roads with different speeds
06:41<andythenorth>and restrictions on maximum axle weight
06:41<andythenorth>and surfaces that are slippery when wet
06:42<Pikkaphone>yes
06:42<andythenorth>we could have roadtype labels
06:42<andythenorth>and a roadtype labels standardisation committee
06:43<andythenorth>and we could have a vetting committee for the labels standardisation committee
06:43<Pikkaphone>what about different road markings?
06:43<andythenorth>also
06:43<andythenorth>also road planning roads
06:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26927 /trunk/src (smallmap_gui.cpp table/heightmap_colours.h) (2014-09-27 10:43:59 UTC)
06:44<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: split the heightmap colour tables into their own file in the table folder
06:44<andythenorth>and roads that you get a town-growth bonus for
06:44<andythenorth>so that your interesting town-growth script can do growth
06:44<Pikkaphone>roads with no one way
06:44<Pikkaphone>or only one way
06:44<andythenorth>and roads with no way
06:44<andythenorth>closed roads
06:44<Pikkaphone>yes
06:44<@peter1138>highways!
06:44<andythenorth>with grass growing over them
06:44<andythenorth>roads that are plowed in winter
06:45<andythenorth>and roads that are not
06:45<Pikkaphone>could have different maintenance costs
06:46<Pikkaphone>good game play potential there
06:46<andythenorth>roads with more or fewer nails in
06:46<andythenorth>affects breakdowns
06:46<Pikkaphone>roads which b doubles are allowed to use
06:47<andythenorth>roads which b doubles may not use
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06:47<andythenorth>also roads that you have to pay a congestion charge to use
06:47<andythenorth>and roads where trucks are allowed, but only in certain hours
06:47<Pikkaphone>roads which b doubles aren't allowed to use but do anyway
06:47<andythenorth>that too
06:47<andythenorth>we’d need a speed camera option
06:47<Pikkaphone>so is decided
06:47<andythenorth>so you could make money from your competitors
06:48<andythenorth>yes is decided
06:48<andythenorth>so now all is needed is spec
06:48<ccfreak2k>So what's new in openttd fellas
06:48<andythenorth>and coder
06:48<Pikkaphone>we need at least 1024 road types
06:48<andythenorth>at least
06:48<andythenorth>and it must anticipate all future cases
06:48<andythenorth>and be 100% extensible with no BAD FEATURES
06:49<andythenorth>because BAD FEATURES (like dual-headed engines, or livery over-rides)
06:49<andythenorth>are VERY VERY BAD
06:49<andythenorth>instead of just something that is fun to gripe about
06:49<Pikkaphone>yes
06:49<andythenorth>also it must be aware of whatever might change in the map in future
06:49<andythenorth>and be fully accessible to AI and GS
06:49<andythenorth>it must also be backwards compatible with TTDP
06:50<andythenorth>oh wait, too far?
06:50<andythenorth>that last one sounds silly
06:51<Pikkaphone>that's how you know you're on to something
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06:52<andythenorth>Pikkaphone: so the first thing to do is make a spec
06:52<andythenorth>then get it reviewed by all the relevant people
06:52<Pikkaphone>is it?
06:52<andythenorth>I believe so
06:52<andythenorth>I’ve heard that’s how software is made correctly
06:52<andythenorth>get a spec
06:53<andythenorth>show it to all the stakeholders
06:53<andythenorth>take all their input
06:53<andythenorth>modify the spec until all needs are met
06:53<andythenorth>afaik, anything else isn’t correct
06:53<andythenorth>ha
06:54<andythenorth>there is so much wrong with this https://www.flickr.com/photos/126425458@N06/14941297932/
06:54<Pikkaphone>isn't it
06:55<andythenorth>definitely more realistic
06:55<andythenorth>super realistic
06:55<andythenorth>https://www.flickr.com/photos/126425458@N06/14755117297/
06:55<andythenorth>he didn’t even get the stickers straight :(
06:55<andythenorth>lego + realism :P
06:55<andythenorth>also
06:55<andythenorth>quak
06:56<@Rubidium>andythenorth: that first one is definitely wrong... a steam train running on electricity stored in coal?!?
06:56<andythenorth>yes
06:56<andythenorth>not realistic
06:56<andythenorth>and his flanges are way too deep also
06:57<andythenorth>and real trains don’t use magnet couplers
06:57<andythenorth>and that coal is plastic
06:57<Pikkaphone>eh, I've seen stickers on real vehicles less straight than that.
06:57<andythenorth>proper train fans use real coal
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06:59<@peter1138>meh, i need multiple docks :S
06:59<andythenorth>you do
06:59<Pikkaphone>yes
06:59*andythenorth considers bouy docks
06:59<Pikkaphone>and ships that don't drive through each other
07:00<Pikkaphone>not much point in multiple docks otherwise...
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07:01<Pikkaphone>you broke it
07:01<andythen_>Child has taken mac away from me
07:01<Pikkaphone>typical
07:02<andythen_>He's playing ottd
07:02<@Alberth>play-testing your newgrfs :)
07:02<Pikkaphone>how unusual
07:02<andythen_>He's just learnt about vehicles having red or black profit numbers
07:03<andythen_>He wants vehicle ferries
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07:05<Pikkaphone>drive the truck onto the boat vehicle ferries?
07:05<andythe__>Yes
07:05<@Alberth>but moving vehicles gives big red numbers
07:06<Pikkaphone>better make it happen, then
07:06<andythe__>Maybe tommorow
07:07<@peter1138>hmm, do buoys have an infrastructure cost?
07:07<@peter1138>Pikkaphone, there are other reasons for multiple docks
07:08<@peter1138>like in this case, a narrow bit of land with a dock either side, instead of going the long way around
07:08<andythe__>Yes
07:08<andythe__>Common case
07:09<@peter1138>Might just be easier to make a sea-canal (cheaper than making a normal canal :S)
07:09<andythe__>Yeah
07:10<Pikkaphone>they're not as good reasons :)
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07:12<Pikkaphone>hum
07:13<Pikkaphone>looks like some rain hereabouts
07:16<andythe__>Beebul
07:16<Pikkaphone>si
07:18<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26928 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-27 11:17:54 UTC)
07:18<@DorpsGek>-Change: scale the heightmap colours over the whole range of heights (based on patch by ic111)
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08:04<fjb>Moin
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08:09<frosch>quak
08:10<Wolf01>woof
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08:25<qwebirc22871>IRC ... it's been a while. anyone still in here?
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08:27<LordAro>aw
08:27<LordAro>helps if you wait more than 30 seconds...
08:28<^Spike^>no it doesn't....
08:29<^Spike^>you join a channel and need answer within 1 second
08:29<^Spike^>if no-one responds leave! :)
08:29<^Spike^>that's how help channels work :D
08:30<LordAro>:p
08:39<fjb>Reduces the work for the support team.
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08:59<^Spike^>:)
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09:49<MTsPony>lulz
09:52<argoneus>moshi moshi
09:55<@Rubidium>ohayou gozaimasu
09:57<argoneus>Rubidium: are you following any chinese cartoons this season?
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10:04<Eddi|zuHause>some decades ago there was a commercial, where a kid hit random numbers on the phone, and then someone in japan answered the phone, and the fee counter exploded. or something
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10:07<Eddi|zuHause>the internet seems to think it was a commercial for some lottery. "if you need money..."
10:07<@Rubidium>argoneus: no
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10:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26929 trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp (2014-09-27 14:49:37 UTC)
10:49<@DorpsGek>-Change: accounts for maximum height when filling the height legend of the smallmap
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10:50<@peter1138>Might just be easier to make a sea-canal (cheaper than making a normal canal :S)
10:50<@peter1138>err
10:50<@peter1138>up-arrow enter in wrong window D:
10:51<XeryusTC>hah, openttd is used by my information security teacher as a bad example of using checksums
10:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26930 trunk/src/table/heightmap_colours.h (2014-09-27 14:51:34 UTC)
10:51<@DorpsGek>-Add: extra shadings to he heightmap colour tables (Chillcore)
10:52<@Rubidium>XeryusTC: please tell us how it's bad... I'm interested ;)
10:53<@peter1138>OMG, MD5, so many collisions!
10:53<XeryusTC>the exercise is on why providing checksums next to downloads is bad
10:53<@Rubidium>oh, those checksums
10:54<@peter1138>"next to"?
10:54<@Rubidium>peter1138: the checksums on the download page of openttd
10:54<XeryusTC>http://www.openttd.org/en/download-testing
10:54<XeryusTC>checksums on those pages
10:54<XeryusTC>just found it funny how he used openttd as as example, it is all over the web
10:54<@peter1138>Should they be hidden? :p
10:54<@Rubidium>why is it bad that the checksums are there?
10:55<@peter1138>It's not like that's where the downloads actually come from.
10:55<@peter1138>Although the mirror redirect is on the same platform, so...
10:55<Prof_Frink>Because people shouldn't know if their downloads got corrupted.
10:55<XeryusTC>it is probably because if Trudy is able to modify your download then she is also probably able to modify the checksum on the page
10:56<@Rubidium>XeryusTC: what other solution is there?
10:56<@Rubidium>because if Trudy is able to modify the page, then Trudy is probably also able to mess with the source repository and the build farm
10:57<XeryusTC>I dunno, it is an exercise, i still have to come up with a solution
10:57<@Rubidium>likewise the MTA
10:57<@Alberth>obviously, removing the checksums is much safer :p
10:57<XeryusTC>Trudy can also intercept the page after it has been transmitted and then modify it
10:57<Prof_Frink>I never saw MD5s as a security thing, just a "Did this download right?" thing.
10:58<Pikka>it is
10:58<XeryusTC>indeed
10:58<@Rubidium>XeryusTC: by the same token, Trudy can intercept all traffic and provide a bogus SSL certificate for ANY communication we do
10:58<Prof_Frink>(More important with things like OS images or firmwares than openttd.)
10:58<Pikka>XeryusTC, so the challenge is to come up with a way to detect an omnipotent intruder?
10:58<@Rubidium>including mails to mailing lists or whatever
10:58<XeryusTC>Pikka: probably :(
11:00<XeryusTC>Rubidium: very true, but he apparently thinks that this method is meant for security, not to check if your download got corrupted
11:00<Prof_Frink>Why would he think that, then claim that it isn't?
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11:02<Prof_Frink>You shouldn't use MD5sums because they're not suitable for building bridges.
11:02<@Rubidium>our website only claims that if the checksums don't match, it's definitely corrupted or not from the website. It doesn't state that if the checksum matches it definitely came from us
11:02<@Rubidium>that's an assumption your teacher made, and making an assumption in information security is IMO a fatal mistake
11:03<Pikka>assumptions make an ass out of u and mption.
11:03<Prof_Frink>s.
11:05<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: Or the script that generates the MD5s for that page fell over.
11:05<XeryusTC>Rubidium: that is true, but it is still the case that a malicious party can foil this method
11:06<@Rubidium>XeryusTC: true, just take over the domain... but then they can send mails to mailings lists with signatures as well
11:06<^Spike^>XeryusTC in the end depending on the network setup even someone not even modyfing the ottd page can still make the user show false info even if the checksums are on a different page/server on the other side of the world
11:06<^Spike^>if it becomes a mitm
11:07<^Spike^>so the point the teacher makes seems rather pointless
11:07<^Spike^>cause i can not modify ottd pages and still modify checksums and provide a false file
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11:09<XeryusTC>the point he is trying to make is rather pointless indeed
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11:09<@Rubidium>XeryusTC: obviously the only solution is for the downloader to physically come to the person that did the release and built the binary to get the checksums from just after the build as they were written down on a piece of paper. This under the watchful eye of a judge/notary, who then signs everything and commits it to public record.
11:09<^Spike^>^^^
11:09<^Spike^>got it before me :)
11:09<@peter1138>added test: our mirrors also contain checksums
11:09<@peter1138>so (somehow) check each mirror agrees
11:10<@peter1138>then realise that mirror upload is automated :p
11:10<^Spike^>peter1138 as said that wouldn't matter if it is a mitm for ex depends on which side they are :)
11:10<@peter1138>ok let's put it on ssl and assume the user knows how to check for a valid certificate
11:10<^Spike^>if they are on client side then they won't notice if they are just @ one server then yeah mirror checks work :)
11:10<^Spike^>*cough*diginotar*cough*
11:10<@Rubidium>in other words, you need to get the checksum in some way that does not contain any black box-y methods of transport, i.e. where you cannot oversee each and every step
11:11<@Rubidium>so sending things via snail mail is out as well
11:11<^Spike^>ssl certs are just trust based
11:11<XeryusTC>Rubidium: the safest method is probably to print the code, put it in an envelope and seal it with wax, mail it to the other party (or hand it in person) and have the other party type it into their computer and compile it
11:11<^Spike^>we trust several companies to provide a safe chain
11:11<^Spike^>doesn't mean they also actually do.. :)
11:11<^Spike^>Xaroth you forget: Having the same compile setup :)
11:11<^Spike^>else checksums do not match :D
11:11<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: I think we've just invented the key-exchange problem.
11:11<@peter1138>of course not, the ca business is built on a scam
11:11<@Rubidium>XeryusTC: the envelope can be intercepted, as such it is not safe
11:11<+michi_cc>PGP signatures with a proper web of trust. Of course, if the attacked has access to the server the private keys isn't exactly private anymore either.
11:12<@peter1138>so manually sign each an every release. cool.
11:12<XeryusTC>Rubidium: that is where the seal comes in, if it is broken you can definitely say that it has been tampered with
11:12<@Rubidium>XeryusTC: but I can just put it in a new enveloppe and reseal it
11:13<Prof_Frink>But that won't have the openttd seal on it.
11:13<^Spike^>can be forged :)
11:13<@Rubidium>after all, I intercepted a set of enveloppes, paper, wax and a replacement seal that some office supplier sent to the person doing the printing
11:13<@peter1138>safest best, stop distributing anything
11:14<^Spike^>stop using the interwebz... :)
11:15<@Rubidium>XeryusTC: but I like to hear your professor's solution, just to poke holes into it ;)
11:15<^Spike^>XeryusTC: and there you have your answer... Teacher your point does not work in any way. I have discussed it with the guys of OpenTTD and there are so many ways you can still forge it no matter what :)
11:15<Prof_Frink>And make sure you include quotes from this conversation in your report.
11:16<^Spike^>:)
11:16<XeryusTC>oh, I will quote this ;)
11:16<^Spike^>heheh
11:17<XeryusTC>Rubidium: he can probably come up with a good solution, although it might indeed involve swapping papers in person
11:17<@Rubidium>but how do you know that the person you're swapping with is the real author?
11:17<@Rubidium>okay, *you* might know some of them... but your teacher probably not
11:17<Prof_Frink>If you're gonna meet in person, couln't he just give you a disk with the program on it, rather than download the program and meet up for the checksum?
11:20<XeryusTC>Prof_Frink: but how would you then check if your download isn't corrupted?
11:20<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: Doesn't matter even if you know them personally. "We have your family, do what we say and nobody gets harmed..."
11:21<Prof_Frink>It can't be corrupted, because I haven't downloaded anything.
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11:39<@Rubidium>Prof_Frink: so... there is NO way to completely ensure there not being a MITM-attack
11:45<Prof_Frink>Sure there is. Don't have a middle to put a man in.
11:46<Prof_Frink>Only use code that you've written yourself, on an OS you've written yourself, with a compiler... you get the idea.
11:46<^Spike^>with computer parts you build yourself? :)
11:46<@Rubidium>Prof_Frink: but that doesn't need distributing
11:46<@Rubidium>and as such no need to download or have checksums
11:46<@Rubidium>thus it's a moot solution for this conundrum
11:47<Prof_Frink>Wait, what was the question?
11:47<@Rubidium>essentially to safely distribute files
11:48<Prof_Frink>Safely distribute or safely receive?
11:48<@Rubidium>basically both?
11:48<@Alberth>sounds like obtaining a unique identity for a MP session
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12:02<XeryusTC>Prof_Frink: apparently distributing files with a checksum next to them on the download page is flawed
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12:05<@peter1138>Should be on a different page? :p
12:06<@Rubidium>XeryusTC: but the files are downloaded from a different country than those checksums are in ;)
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12:14<@peter1138>anyway
12:14<@peter1138>why would you trust us with your game
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12:17<@Rubidium>what if I were Trudy?
12:19<Prof_Frink>Trudibium?
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12:26<@Rubidium>must say TUe's Information security technology website is doing great...
12:27<@Rubidium>first link: 404, second link: http://(Computer
12:27<@Rubidium>fourth link: 404
12:28<@Alberth>:)
12:29<@Alberth>it's very safe that way :p
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12:39<andythenorth>o/
12:40<@Alberth>\o
12:40<andythenorth>Pikka: so all new road vehicles arrive in same year? o_O
12:43<Pikka>"all"?
12:43<Pikka>if they're ostensibly the same model, I don't see why not. except of course you have the fun random element.
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12:55<andythenorth>the only thing against it is the faff of auto-replace
12:55<andythenorth>but then random will take care of that
12:57<@peter1138>Autoreplace isn't a faff. Manually replacing is...
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13:01<andythenorth>well
13:01<andythenorth>yes
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>manual replace is one of the biggest flaws of train fever
13:04<V453000>quite a bad feature
13:04<@Alberth>original TTD had that too
13:04<V453000>:P
13:04<MTsPony>Having no multiplayer is :p
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but you could only have 80 vehicles in total
13:05<MTsPony>Openttd > Fever
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>MTsPony: why would you need multiplayer in a single player game?
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>MTsPony: so simcity5>simcity4?
13:05<MTsPony>Ehm. What defines a Multiplayer game? By having multiplayer option ofcourse :p
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13:07<Eddi|zuHause>i played multiplayer in openttd like 3 times over the past 8 years
13:08<MTsPony>Everyone has their own preference.
13:10<andythenorth>meh realisms
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13:11<andythenorth>steam road vehicles hauling stupid amounts IRL
13:11<andythenorth>doesn’t fit vehicle progression
13:12<@Alberth>:)
13:12<@Alberth>steam RVs were quite powerful
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>MTsPony: anyway, with a few right improvements, train fever easily surpasses openttd
13:13<V453000>Train Fever has no nuts
13:13<V453000>no way
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: make them have low speed or ridiculous running costs or something
13:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what’s better in TF, other than visuals?
13:13<V453000>low speed is boaring
13:13<andythenorth>yeah
13:13<andythenorth>so fakery
13:13<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: they used to run quite fast afaik
13:13<MTsPony>Why eddi? Because its fancy 3D?
13:14<andythenorth>it’s just odd finding images with 10 trailers
13:14<andythenorth>behind one engine
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13:15<andythenorth>anyway, Road Hog is drifting quite away from reality :P
13:15<MTsPony>Dunno dude, at first glance I'd say behind the scenes Openttd has way more matured, and comparing the two graphically, thats purely subjective
13:15<@Alberth>the true problem was that you'd have to start them up several hours before you could leave
13:15<andythenorth>operating cost o_O
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>MTsPony: of course a program with as many development hours (or decades) behind it as openttd is "more mature"
13:16<MTsPony>So explain why you think TF surpasses openttd?
13:16<andythenorth>if I was starting a game studio, I would probably have attempted TF
13:16<andythenorth>but maybe with less realisms
13:16<@Alberth>while transport tycoon 2013 was just released?
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>MTsPony: less legacy crap to carry around. and fancy 3D.
13:17<MTsPony>Thus subjective :p
13:18<MTsPony>I prefer the old skool openttd look, probably because of nostalgia :0
13:18<@Alberth>the big audience doesn't
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>i
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>'m sure you can make the models all block-y
13:18<MTsPony>the big audience is bored with train fever a few weeks after purchase.
13:19<MTsPony>usually depth and possibilities >> some fancy looking graphics,
13:19<andythenorth>I think train fever will succeed
13:19<andythenorth>smells of success
13:19<andythenorth>Euro Truck Simulator has gone on and on
13:19<@Alberth>they can probably prolong interest if they add new features and improve things
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's where the development comes in. the depth and possibilities have to be added now
13:20<MTsPony>Dont think so, they'll probably stop development when they squeezed out most of the money :
13:20<MTsPony>:p
13:20<andythenorth>I think there’s a huge under-served appetite for these sims
13:20<andythenorth>so it’s not Call of Duty or Halo, but still
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>if you were really in it for the money, you'd not attempt such a niche simulation area
13:21<andythenorth>there’s money and there’s money
13:21<andythenorth>SCS seem to be doing OK http://www.scssoft.com
13:21<+glx>ets2 is not bad
13:22<andythenorth>it’s not exactly EA, but if you can keep cash burn rate at €75k per month…
13:22<@Alberth>andythenorth: no news for a year? :)
13:22<andythenorth>they tweet stuff
13:22<andythenorth>but yeah, you’re not going to spend a lot on community media stuff if you’re running a lean operation
13:22<+glx>and regular ets2 updates
13:22<andythenorth>they’re putting the money into sound effects
13:22<andythenorth>and better overtaking :P
13:23<andythenorth>and hopefully they’ll eventually ship the mac port :P
13:23<+glx>videos for sound effects are fun to watch
13:23<andythenorth>yeah
13:23<andythenorth>they crashed trucks and cars
13:23<+glx>oh didn't see this one
13:24<+glx>only the truck full of mics
13:25<andythenorth>somewhere on their YT probably
13:29<+glx>http://blog.scssoft.com/2014/09/the-first-news-about-design.html <-- they are crazy
13:30<argoneus>ets2 is fun
13:30<argoneus>especially when you play multiplayer
13:31<argoneus>http://puu.sh/aupK2/3dd2fd14e2.jpg
13:33<andythenorth>it’s €20 with a €10 expansion pack
13:33<argoneus>jokes on you, I got it for 4 euros
13:34<andythenorth>for ETS 2?
13:34<andythenorth>some bundle?
13:34<argoneus>no
13:34<argoneus>but there are sites that resell steam keys
13:34<argoneus>for cheap
13:34<+glx>there's often sales too
13:35<andythenorth>trying to figure out how many staff they have
13:35<argoneus>also thanks openttd
13:35<andythenorth>they’ve built or licensed game engines for third parties, so they probably have residuals from that
13:35<argoneus>you renewed my interest in coding and c++
13:35<Pikka>andythenorth, we should make the best transport game
13:35<Pikka>make millions
13:36<andythenorth>more like thousands
13:36<Pikka>and all the roadtypes you can eat
13:36<andythenorth>all of them
13:36<andythenorth>I’ll code it in python
13:36<andythenorth>it will be slow
13:36<argoneus>imagine
13:36<argoneus>if you could make the same roads like in simcity 4
13:36<andythenorth>I reckon SCS would have to sell 5k units per month full price on ETS 2 to run a viable business
13:36<andythenorth>but their team might be bigger that my guess
13:37<andythenorth>but they also have 8 other games on sale
13:37<argoneus>andythenorth: but ets2 is really popular
13:37<andythenorth>define ‘really popular'
13:37<andythenorth>it’s not angry birds
13:37<argoneus>it had a spike like dayz
13:37<argoneus>when arma 2 was top seller for months
13:37<argoneus>not that high but it had a major spike
13:37<argoneus>and it's a well known game
13:38<Eddi|zuHause><argoneus> but there are sites that resell steam keys <-- i imagine that the difference is what steam would otherwise keep for themselves, and the programmers get the same money nevertheless
13:38<Pikka>dayz is still a top seller on steam. which is weird, because afaia everyone played the mod and decided it was dreadful about 18 months ago.
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13:40<Eddi|zuHause>i never played any of those
13:41<andythenorth>farming simulator seems to be massive too
13:42<@peter1138>my sprites are massive
13:43<Sacro>peter1138: you disturb me very sprites
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>i wonder if i should play goat simulator :p
13:43<argoneus>no it's a funny meme ex dee game
13:44*peter1138 limits Sacro's sprites
13:44<argoneus>which is "fun" for 10 minutes before you realize all you can do with it is make money if you are a famous youtuber
13:44<argoneus>that's literally it
13:44<V453000>goat simulator was awesome for a couple of minutes :)
13:44<argoneus>even popcorn at cinemas is more cost efficient than goat simulator
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>i've never ever paid for popcorn at cinemas
13:45<argoneus>V453000: I was wondering, are you a coder / developer as well?
13:45<argoneus>I doubt you can make robust newgrfs with just 3d art skills
13:45<V453000>only newGRFs
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26931 trunk/src/lang/russian.txt (2014-09-27 17:45:18 UTC)
13:45<V453000>I hate coding
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 3 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<V453000>well I do "code" newGRFs in NML
13:45<argoneus>hmm
13:45<V453000>which is not really coding
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>well i "hate" coding as well
13:45<V453000>just filling in values with some syntax
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>which is why i write code generators :p
13:46<argoneus>filling in values with syntax is coding :D
13:46<argoneus>figuring out what values to fill is programming
13:46<argoneus>:P
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>filling in values with syntax is a great job for a code generator
13:47<argoneus>like this? http://pointmetotheplane.boardingarea.com/2014/08/08/oops-united-mad-libs-edition-fill-blank-apology-letter-customer-name-2/
13:47<V453000>well then :D coding I do, hate it I do
13:47<argoneus>(take everything I say with a grain of salt, 64% of the time I have no idea what I'm talking about)
13:47<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/double6.png
13:48<@peter1138>That window on the right isn't working right :S
13:48<V453000>MY EYES DIE
13:48<argoneus>peter1138: what is wrong with the company list guy
13:48<argoneus>he looks angry as fuck
13:48<@peter1138>V453000, it's easier to see what's wrong at 4X :)
13:49<V453000>yeah, that is the only thing I use x4 for
13:49<V453000>checking if offsets are fine with nuts :D
13:49<V453000>well now for yeti
13:49<@peter1138>If i can make it scale properly at 4x, it'll be good at 2x too, in theory.
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: that's a moustache, not a frowny face :p
13:49<@peter1138>argoneus, well, he's had half his face cropped off...
13:51<argoneus>looks like this to me
13:51<argoneus>http://puu.sh/bQ4Zm/363d989043.png
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>"german military is so underfunded that it couldn't fulfill nato obligations"
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: cross-eyed with bad haircut?
13:52<argoneus>he looks cross eyed
13:52<argoneus>and can't see haircut because tophat
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: the joy of pixel art. things that look really stupid upclose look amazing a bit further away
13:53<andythenorth>peter1138: that is fricking awesome
13:53<andythenorth>my eyes bleed at the font
13:54<andythenorth>finally, I will be able to drop vehicles in the bin easily :P
13:54<andythenorth>and you need a new x
13:54<argoneus>I wonder if it would be possible to implement control groups and viewport hotkeys into openttd
13:54<argoneus>so I could play it like starcraft with 200 apm
13:54<@peter1138>andythenorth, it's tricky with your dodgy FISH sprite offsets though :p
13:54<argoneus>and not before long koreans would compete 1vs1 openttd
13:55<andythenorth>peter1138: maybe they need changed :P
13:55*argoneus tries to imagine how that would look like in practice
13:55<andythenorth>the Squid ones are hack for buy menu centering
13:55<andythenorth>I’m not changing the FISH 1 ones, that set is dead
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>was the purchase menu scaling ever included?
13:56<@peter1138>I wonder how usuable this 4X is on a 4K displaY? :p
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: implement retina display support :p
13:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: your patch that enabled centering is included iirc
13:57<andythenorth>or at least whatever made it difficult is now gone afaict
13:57<andythenorth>oh it was positioning the text iirc
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes. that was part of it
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i ever adapted CETS
13:58<@peter1138>andythenorth, squid is fine
13:58<andythenorth>hmm, was that patch actually included?
13:58<andythenorth>Squid is doing something clever with widths
13:58<andythenorth>but I think that’s just for centering
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13:58<@peter1138>well, other than the sprites being so huge they overlap
13:59<V453000>Eddi, better start learning blender if you want sprites for CETS :D
13:59<andythenorth>voxels
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i tried blender
13:59<@Rubidium>peter1138: does that patch come with a 2560 by 1920 monitor as well? ;)
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: it was horrible
13:59<andythenorth>but voxels at 2:1 resolution not 1:1
13:59<V453000>TRY HARDER :D
13:59<V453000>then try 3ds max :)
13:59<andythenorth>he can’t write a model generator
13:59<andythenorth>actually, he probably could
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>more chances i adapt pixeltool
14:00<@peter1138>Rubidium, :p
14:00<@peter1138>Rubidium, as i said, it's easier to see problems that don't manifest at 2x
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, i have a "crude" model generator
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>that at the moment can only generate boxes
14:00<@peter1138>Rubidium, like fixed offsets that just happen to be big enough, though should be dynamic
14:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: write a procedural model generator
14:01<andythenorth>actually model components - axles, bodies, details
14:01<andythenorth>then use a random generation algorithm
14:01<andythenorth>then get the ‘community’ to tell you which ones are realistic
14:01<andythenorth>like Galaxy Zoo
14:01<andythenorth>and bin the rest
14:01<andythenorth>rinse, repeat
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you mean like genetic algorithm?
14:03<andythenorth>exactly
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>i wonder if i can make CETS into a TF mod
14:06<andythenorth>well you have a code generator…
14:06<andythenorth>aids portability
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14:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but is there a TF mod spec?
14:08<andythenorth>join their forums?
14:08<andythenorth>http://www.train-fever.com/forums/forum/modding/
14:09<andythenorth>lots of mods
14:09<andythenorth>way more than ottd probably
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>lots of mods, but no comprehensive spec?
14:11<andythenorth>not an obvious one
14:11<andythenorth>there are only 5 staff
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14:14<@Rubidium>although... I guess we need to introduce two more zoom-in levels. How else would we not get too small icons on 8k (although that is already so 2008)
14:15<Wolf01>http://www.train-fever.com/forums/topic/mod-suggestion-grass-grows-on-unused-tracks/ <- lol
14:16<andythenorth>I am glad I am not on of the five TF developers
14:17<andythenorth>I would be too angry too often
14:17<andythenorth>they are going to have 200 persistent idiots turning up asking for all the features OTTD can’t do
14:18<andythenorth>and they’ve paid
14:18<andythenorth>and they’ll want to know why feature xyz can’t be done, now that TF is free of OTTD’s ancient messy code
14:19<andythenorth>because everyone knows that 3D graphics implies an endlessly extensible codebase
14:19<andythenorth>with no scaling or performance issues
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>and anonther 200 that ask for features that OTTD already does?
14:19<andythenorth>that too
14:19<andythenorth>but they’ll spend most of their time fighting performance problems
14:19<andythenorth>and OS X
14:19<andythenorth>whilst frantically trying to add paid DLC so they can make payroll
14:22<andythenorth>also
14:22<andythenorth>when are we going to rewrite OTTD?
14:22<andythenorth>in a proper modern language
14:22<Wolf01>in english?
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>witespace.
14:23<Wolf01>at least brainfuck
14:23<andythenorth>I was thinking PHP
14:23<Wolf01>no, please
14:24<Wolf01>(I'm fighting with a MySQL installation which doesn't work right now)
14:24<@Rubidium>obviously in bash. Then you has proper programming from the start; anyone can control your server ;)
14:24<Wolf01>dinner time
14:26<andythenorth>Rubidium: by design
14:26<andythenorth>feature not bug
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14:34<@peter1138>andythenorth, pascal
14:34<andythenorth>true
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14:44<@peter1138>cool, openttd crashed
14:44<@peter1138>by itself
14:49<@peter1138>hmm, maybe i was a new ship
14:49<andythenorth>feature
14:49<andythenorth>autonomous crashing
14:49<@Alberth>it protested against its rewrite :p
14:52<@peter1138>:p
14:52<@peter1138>usual assert(min < max)
14:52<@peter1138>means a window isn't big enough :p
14:52<@peter1138>for andythenorth's massive doobreys
14:53<andythenorth>:(
14:53<Pikka>speaking of which, 3-tile ship lengths are fine, right?
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14:57<andythenorth>yeah totally
14:57<Pikka>splendid
14:58<@peter1138>Who cares about overlaps
14:58<andythenorth>how big is a tile? :P
14:58<andythenorth>Squid stops at 140px
14:58<andythenorth>:P
14:58<Pikka>5400km or something
14:58<@Rubidium>~600 km
14:58<Pikka>depends what you're measuring
14:58*Pikka back some time, if not sooner
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14:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: 1 tile is 16 steps, a step is 4px -, 2px |, 2+1px / or \
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>so 2 tiles - ist 128px
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>-t
15:01*peter1138 zooms Eddi|zuHause out
15:01*Eddi|zuHause is fractal, doesn't change on zoom
15:02<andythenorth>is Eddi|zuHause procedurally generated?
15:02<@Rubidium>@calc (4+2+2*sqrt(5))/4
15:02<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 2.61803398875
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes. DNA is very procedural
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15:37<@peter1138>ah, the engine preview window...
15:38<@peter1138>relies on being wide enough by the text in it, heh
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15:41<andythenorth>yes
15:41<andythenorth>clever eh?
15:44<FUZxxl>peter1138: what does it look when this does not hold?
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15:48<@peter1138>a crash
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>that assert should probably be changed to just crop things
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16:02<@peter1138>yes, i always change my assert() to crop()
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16:20<Wolf01>'night
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16:39<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26932 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2014-09-27 20:39:32 UTC)
16:39<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: replace some constants with less weird looking constants and simplify clamping by actually using Clamp
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16:56<Eddi|zuHause>tgp code is probably a source of endless joy :p
17:00<andythenorth>bed
17:00<andythenorth>bye
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17:17<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: especially with three kinds of changes interwoven and the person that has done the changes in some cases just stabbing in the dark which constant to modify
17:17<@Rubidium>so you have to reason why they changed things in the ways they did
17:18<@Rubidium>as a result... piecing things together and splitting a patch
17:18<@Rubidium>but... more tomorrow or even later
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17:54<@peter1138>Please feel free to rip out the variety stuff and replace it with something sane.
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19:44<argoneus>any idea where I can find how large of a buffer size I need for the admin port to receive?
19:45<argoneus>I'm trying to see if ottd has some upper limit for packet size
19:45<argoneus>but I can't find
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>UDP packages have a maximum size. TCP doesn't
19:49<Supercheese>Check source I guess
19:50<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: so when I recv, it receives everything?
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue how network code actually works
19:50<argoneus>or is there anything more I have to do
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19:59<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, even if there was a maximum size defined in openttd code, always assume that the remote partner sends unsafe data
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 28 00:00:29 2014