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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-28

---Logopened Sun Sep 28 00:00:29 2014
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00:45<@Rubidium>argoneus: somewhere in the order of 1500 bytes is the maximum packet size openttd will send
00:45<@Rubidium>also recv might get only a partial packet (or multiple packets)
00:46<@Rubidium>since the underlying network layer is free to merge the "openttd packets" (or split them up)
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02:02<andythenorth>I never knew tree growth was such a big deal
02:03<Supercheese>It apparently greatly affects savegame size
02:06<@Rubidium>if it greatly affects your savegame size, then your map isn't finished by a long shot and you probably took a too large map size ;)
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02:10<@Rubidium>also... how is the Latin translation going?
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02:18<andythenorth>my trees are always transparent
02:18<andythenorth>I should just start maps with trees off :P
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02:19<@Rubidium>andythenorth: without trees and with the tree growth disabled ;)
02:19<andythenorth>as the conclusion of the thread is that none of the current map gen settings are not good enough
02:19<andythenorth>I would just remove the option from the map gen window
02:20<andythenorth>the root cause of the problem is that the players don’t like the options
02:20<andythenorth>so remove the options :P
02:26<andythenorth>this is why andythenorth never gets commit rights
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02:56<Supercheese>Latin translation is nearly finished
02:57<Supercheese>I'm just having issues trying to translate signals... block signals, path signals
02:57<Supercheese>I wonder if some 19th century railroad texts exist in Latin
02:57<Supercheese>something with sufficient terminology
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03:04<Supercheese>the Latin wikipedia sadly is lacking in signaling terms
03:04<Supercheese>as are all my school textbooks
03:06<@Rubidium> ?
03:07<Supercheese>Yes, but then what is a "block signal
03:07<Supercheese>vs. other signals
03:08<Supercheese>and then how to distinguish between semaphores (semaphora) and other signals (semaphora)...
03:08<@Rubidium>mechanical vs electrical?
03:08<Supercheese>semaphora electrica, well could just be electrically-operated semaphores...
03:09<Supercheese>and long-winded
03:09<Supercheese>also I have been lucky enough to find prior references for translating modern terms for nearly everything except railroad signalling
03:10<Supercheese>even monorail had a latin translation, surprisingly
03:10<sla_ro|master>is there a latin translation for openttd?
03:10<@Rubidium>too bad Poland stopped using Latin in the 18th century
03:11<Supercheese>sla_ro|master: There is on my hard drive, and will be available for proofreading shortly
03:11<sla_ro|master>ah, well, not goin' to use it, but that's cool and weird :P
03:11<sla_ro|master>well I speak a latin language who is supported by openttd
03:11<sla_ro|master>so I don't need latin itself
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03:16<@Rubidium> <- to bad I couldn't see anything about mentioning signalling failures or so (and the amount of news items per week makes it unlikely that they even exist)
03:16<Supercheese>Yeah their broadcasts do not have comprehensive transcripts
03:16<Supercheese>however, I could trawl their archives for some
03:17<@Rubidium>the question is whether they might know the wording
03:18<Supercheese>I could ask my professor, I suppose, although we've no trains anywhere around here ...
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03:20<Supercheese>oh also cargo distribution stuff... ugh last hurdle
03:20<@Rubidium>mechanical signals (on wikipedia at least) refer to the semaphores, the others are light signals
03:20<Supercheese>Yeah I'll just have to tack on adjectives
03:21<Supercheese>bleeeeh stupid CargoDist helptexts
03:21<Supercheese>I don't even use cargodist
03:22<Supercheese>they are also the longest strings in OTTD
03:23<@planetmaker>the short ones were already used up ;)
03:23<Supercheese>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SHORT_PATH_SATURATION_HELPTEXT weighs in at 703 characters
03:25<@Alberth>unless you make an in-game manual, there is no other good place, probably
03:25*Supercheese debates translating them all as "Noli id uti" :P
03:28<Supercheese>or I suppose "eo uti"
03:29<Supercheese>dictionary is sending mixed signals
03:31<@Rubidium>use that for "combo signals" ;)
03:31<Supercheese>oh definitely
03:31<Supercheese>"Hoc adhibendum non est"
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03:37<@peter1138>And semaphore signals can have lights too...
03:39<Supercheese>It's a bit of a sticky wicket
03:39<Supercheese>some chap decided that signal and semaphore would be the same word in Latin
03:40<@peter1138>That's the problem with a dead language, it doesn't evolve.
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03:47<Supercheese>Wait did the Harry Potter railway ever mention signals?
03:47<Supercheese>The first two books have official Latin translations
03:47<V453000>why do you translate to latin anyway
03:47<V453000>sounds useless
03:47<Supercheese>and Ancient Greek too, I believe
03:47<@Alberth>I wondered about that too :)
03:48<@Alberth>maybe they missed Klingon?
03:48<@peter1138>There was that pig-latin translation once...
03:49<__ln__>Supercheese: since it's not on webtranslator, do you have a backup copy of the translation somewhere? it would be a great pity if all work was lost due to hard disk failure.
03:49<Haube>Egyptian Hieroglyphs would be nice too, but then i would want to carry stones around ;)
03:50<Supercheese>__ln__: Yes it is also synched to my Google drive
03:50<Supercheese>after you last mentioned I should have a backup, in fact :)
03:51<__ln__>good, yes, i remember asking that earlier too :)
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03:53<Supercheese>I dunno, I think it'd be a lot cooler if we called it "hamaxostichus" instead of boring old "train"
03:54<Supercheese>it's a fun word
04:08<Supercheese>"Loading {1:STRING} as static NewGRF with {STRING} could cause desyncs" Oh goodness
04:11<Supercheese>actually that wasn't so bad
04:11<__ln__>what's NewGRF in latin?
04:11<Supercheese>NewGRF :P
04:11<Supercheese>like with every other language
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04:12*Supercheese wonders if any of them actually change it
04:12<Supercheese>even Cyrillic languages keep it
04:13<Supercheese>and Japanese
04:13<__ln__>even latvian
04:15<@Rubidium>not something like novum ludum opem tabularium ?
04:15<__ln__>ha, in hebrew it's not NewGRF in all messages at least.
04:15<Supercheese>well, they've even flipped text direction
04:16<Supercheese>and it seems to be still NewGRF
04:16<Supercheese>159 matches to that
04:17<Supercheese>wait, I had match case off
04:17<Supercheese>35, yeah it has fewer
04:18<Supercheese>perhaps there are untranslated strings though
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04:22<Wolf01>hi hi
04:30<@planetmaker>hi hi
04:30<Wolf01>reg query finds the key, reg delete no
04:41<Supercheese>Hmm, can genders be passed through twice?
04:42<Supercheese>e.g. STR_QUANTITY_GRAIN has "{WEIGHT_LONG} frumenti"
04:42<Supercheese>and the weight string is grabbed as "{G=n}{COMMA}{NBSP}chiliogramma{P "" ta}"
04:43<Supercheese>will the neutral gender be passed through to STR_QUANTITY_GRAIN, and it will inherit the gender?
04:43<@Rubidium>I'm not sure
04:43<@Rubidium>and maybe though the caller might need to do {G 0:1 ...} or something, but I guess you need to experiment with that
04:44<Supercheese>Yes, although I don't know how I'll get town growth strings to cooperate
04:44<Supercheese>guess I need a game script
04:45<Supercheese>or bin the whole thing and use verbs instead of adjectives
04:46<@Rubidium>don't towns in deserts / snowy areas already use those strings?
04:47<Supercheese>not the specific-quantity-of-stuff strings
04:48*Supercheese will just use verbs anyway
04:48<Supercheese>I'm not really sure what uses the "demands X amount of stuff" town growth strings
04:48*Supercheese digs source
04:49<@planetmaker>game scripts
04:49<Supercheese>as I thought
04:51<@peter1138>Bah, it's hard to diagnose the engine preview window :p
04:58<Supercheese>There still is no notification for new wagons...
04:58<Supercheese>although there is Ye Olde Patche for That™
04:59<V453000>is there any way to make the sprite aligner work with EZ?
04:59<Supercheese>and to be fair, introduction of the first monorail would cause a spam of monorail wagon notices...
04:59<V453000>like move sprites by 1 pixel not 4
05:00<V453000>I dont need it for code offset, just for sprite editing ... so the 1 offset value being 4 pixels isnt helping :D
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05:02*Supercheese should sleep
05:02<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26933 trunk/src/engine_gui.cpp (2014-09-28 09:02:11 UTC)
05:02<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Resize engine preview window to fit vehicle sprite.
05:02<Supercheese>valete amici
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05:07<@planetmaker>V453000, no. Sprites for all zoom levels follow the same alignment. Thus you align in the 1x zoom and it must fit the others
05:08<V453000>well yeah but the sprites can be sub-4px misaligned :P
05:08<@planetmaker>no, it can't. As it's just 2x or 4x zoomed-in
05:09<@planetmaker>thus a 1px alignment is then zoomed-in,too, and proportionally enlarged
05:09<V453000>that isnt a question of coding, that is a question of how you create the sprites
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett certainly made his vehicles move on sub-4px-level
05:10<V453000>am concerned about landscape atm
05:10<V453000>(is hell)
05:11<@peter1138>planetmaker, well the code takes 4x zoomed in as ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL, so "1x" sprites are actually ZOOM_LVL_OUT_4X
05:11<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, wasn't that patched source which made that possible?
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: only reading the vehicle position needed some unimplemented variable
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>everything else is "stock"
05:15<@peter1138>Let's just increase that 16 to 64 ;)
05:15<@peter1138>Or more, because even 16 isn't quite enough at old-1x
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: each of these 16 steps has already 256 substeps
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05:19<Eddi|zuHause>(or maybe 192 on diagonals)
05:20<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, they're not visual though
05:21<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26934 trunk/src/engine_gui.cpp (2014-09-28 09:21:51 UTC)
05:21<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26933): Don't statically initialise non-static variables.
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but that missing variable allowed the newgrf to offer that visualisation
05:22<@peter1138>yes, but that means the newgrf has to put in a lot of hard work to do it.
05:22<@peter1138>if the game just did it itself... much simpler
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05:26<Eddi|zuHause>but you can't just multiply existing stuff, or you potentially break things that rely on motion counter
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05:27<@peter1138>You can divide to get the motion counter
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but then you need two motion counters. an old and a new one
05:29<@peter1138>welcome to backwards compatibility
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: also, while making such a fundamental change, better fix diagonal motion and length distortion
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05:31<@peter1138>that's one of the reasons to change it :p
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>but then you break every NewGRF that uses 32px vehicles.
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>which is every NewGRF in the last 8 years...
05:34<andythenorth>no more BAD FEATURES
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: is that like "world peace"?
05:35<andythenorth>and roadtypes
05:37<V453000>hm, "how to make landscape" :d
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05:41<andythenorth>oh look
05:41<andythenorth>then there was trouble
05:42<Pikkaphone>trouble is as trouble does
05:42<Pikkaphone>any more hogs yet?
05:43<andythenorth>if a ‘standard’ truck is 30t
05:43<andythenorth>how big should a mining or logging truck be for same era?
05:43<andythenorth>this is brit-ish-ish
05:43<andythenorth>you have the jackpot
05:43<andythenorth>that was my guess too
05:43<andythenorth>family fortunes
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05:43<@Rubidium>long, short or metric t?
05:44<andythenorth>when I am looking at realisms, I pick the type of ton/tonner that suits the number I want
05:44<andythenorth>usually the one that gives the highest number :P
05:46<Pikkaphone>but why look at realisms?
05:48<andythenorth>can’t help it
05:48<andythenorth>low imagination
05:48<Pikkaphone>nuclear powered hover hogs?
05:49<andythenorth>only with cabeese
05:49<Pikkaphone>horse drawn, naturally
05:50<Pikkaphone>and animated rivets
05:52<andythenorth>I was thinking about horse-drawn cabeese
05:53<andythenorth>I think that would be mornington crescent
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05:59<Eddi|zuHause>are you two still speaking english?
06:02<Pikkaphone2>if that helps
06:02<Pikkaphone2>which it probably doesn't
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06:04<andythenorth>Pikkaphone2: so how big is this?
06:04<andythenorth>in tons or tonnes?
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06:06<Pikkaphone2>75? 90?
06:06<andythenorth>another prize
06:06<andythenorth>we’re doing well
06:06<Pikkaphone2>is it slow?
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds awfully large
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>especially for the low number of axles
06:06<Pikkaphone2>3 train cars
06:06<andythenorth>4 tram cars
06:07<Pikkaphone2>I measure everything in train cars now
06:07<andythenorth>metric or imperial?
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>a train car has four axles with 20t each, so 80t, about 20t of which are its own weight
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>so 1 train car is 60t coal
06:08<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think you’re confusing metric and imperial train cars
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>rounding errors
06:08<Pikkaphone2>also too many realisms
06:09<Pikkaphone2>a TTD traincar carries 25-30t
06:10<Pikkaphone2>nuff said
06:10<andythenorth>do you have any cheese?
06:10<Pikkaphone2>only on pizza
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06:11<andythenorth>bye pikkaphone2
06:11<andythenorth>although I preferred the original tbh
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>and the pikkaphone6 bends?
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06:12<andythenorth>wonder if my phone bends
06:12<@Rubidium>don't worry, it does
06:13<@Rubidium>it also does blend
06:13<andythenorth>it flexes
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>with muscles and all?
06:13<andythenorth>is inelastic deformation bending?
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>there is elastic bending, and there's inelastic deformation that is not bending
06:14<andythenorth>pretty certain that my phone
06:14<andythenorth>will flex until the inelastic deformation limit is reached
06:14<andythenorth>then it will increase the component count
06:15<@Alberth>puzzle time!
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06:16<andythenorth>I don’t see the problem tbh
06:16<andythenorth>we have loads of metal-bodied mac laptops that are bent
06:16<andythenorth>people put them in their pockets, forget, sit down...
06:16<@Alberth>they are too small :p
06:16<andythenorth>bending is a feature
06:17<andythenorth>also bbl
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06:20<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the problem either.
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>i have no smartphone, and no mac laptop either
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06:49<argoneus>Rubidium: ah, thanks! is this something you know or is this documented somewhere?
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06:55<@Rubidium>argoneus: + +
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06:59<argoneus>Rubidium: ah, I see
07:00<argoneus>SEND_MTU = 1460 // the maximum number of bytes we can pack in a single packet
07:00<@Rubidium>but as said before, assume the worst (network corruption or evil wise)
07:00<argoneus>thing is I have no clue if ottd appends some sort of delimiter to each message or not
07:01<argoneus>I was trying to find the code that actually sends packets and couldn't find it
07:02<@Rubidium>it doesn't
07:02<@Rubidium>it has a header though
07:04<@Rubidium>see packet.h and packet.cpp
07:12<argoneus>Rubidium: from what I am seeing, it just asserts that the data isn't larger than 1460 bytes, no?
07:12<argoneus>so it should always send no more than that, and the tcp protocol guarantees I get correct data, no?
07:12<@Rubidium>when sending data out, yet... but not when receiving
07:13<argoneus>or does tcp only make sure you receive -something-/
07:13<@Rubidium>there is some error checking, but there is no guarantee
07:17<argoneus>Rubidium: I still don't get it :( in packet.cpp at l179, it just kicks you off if you send too much data
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: always assume the other side didn't implement the protocol correctly
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: your program must accept any random set of data, and filter out the valid ones from that
07:19<argoneus>but it just checks "is packet too big? nope, okay, read it"
07:19<argoneus>and I don't understand
07:20<argoneus>n = (uint32)this->buffer[this->pos++];
07:20<argoneus>so this reads the value at the current buffer byte, and stores it in an uint?
07:20<argoneus>but then, why does it go to the next byte, and bitshift it by 8
07:21<argoneus>that hurts my head
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>uint32 is 4 bytes, but may be big endian or little endian
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>so the bytes in the buffer must be arranged correctly
07:22<argoneus>isn't it little endian 99% of the time?
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>can't just read 4 bytes and assume the correct value
07:23<argoneus>I still fail to grasp this
07:23<argoneus>you read a uint32 number, but then basically lose the first 2 bytes
07:24<argoneus>by bitshifting
07:24<argoneus>or am I missing something major
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>no. you read uint8
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>and put that into an uint32
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>then you read another uint8, and put that in a different position in the same uint32
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>then you read another uint8, and put that in a different position in the same uint32
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>the combination of all these uint8s makes up your uint32
07:30<@Alberth>you get a stream of bytes from the network, and have to assemble the bytes to 4 byte integers, in code that works both for little endian and big endian
07:32<argoneus>wait, this byte assembling works for both LE and BE?
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, because the compiler knows what to do when casting uint8 to uint32, and bitshifting
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>and LE/BE is known to the compiler
07:34<argoneus>I see
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>13:37, good time as any to go out...
07:38<argoneus>so apparently big endian is the standard with networking
07:38<@Alberth>openttd may use it, that doesn't make it a standard in networking in general :)
07:39<argoneus>there is some RFC that defines big endian as standard
07:39<@Alberth>ah, ok
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>big endian is the more logical one if you come from a non-hardware-design perspective
07:40<argoneus>big endian is the one where if I have 1111 0000 0000 1111, it will be stored as F00F ?
07:40<argoneus>aka the intuitive way
07:41<argoneus>then I have to wonder
07:41<argoneus>why libottdadmin2 explicitely forces little endian
07:41<argoneus>and even defines its own Struct for that
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07:41<Eddi|zuHause>most common (RIFF) file formats are little endian
07:42<argoneus>yes, but
07:42<argoneus>if openttd sends big endian packets, and is able to read both, why would you -force- LE?
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>no, you got that backwards
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>the computer that the code runs on can be both LE and BE. the protocol that is transmitted is always the same
07:44*argoneus has never got into networking properly
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>and if the protocol says to use LE, then that is what it must be.
07:44<argoneus>what "protocol"?
07:44<argoneus>someone here said openttd uses big endian, and TCP uses big endian too
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>the "protocol" here is the admin port protocol
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't matter what TCP uses
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>TCP is completely transparent to the user
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>anyway... gone
07:46<argoneus>ah, ok
07:46<argoneus>but thanks a lot!
07:46<argoneus>you've helped
07:48<@Alberth>admin port and server-client traffic are two independent things
07:49<@Alberth>there is no reason to force both to use the same encoding
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07:49<@Alberth>hi hi Pikka
07:50<argoneus>Alberth: consistency? :<
07:50<@Alberth>ha! :)
07:59<@planetmaker>consistency is only for the weak-minded :P
08:01<@Alberth>and for companies to have meetings about :p
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08:04<@Alberth>apparently someone decided otherwise at some point in the past. It's not a big problem imho, just abstract it away to "write stuff to the network" and "read stuff from the network", and it's solved :)
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08:13<@Rubidium>arguably the endianness of ALL OpenTTD binary network protocols is the same
08:14<@Rubidium>mostly because all use Packet which kinda makes it cumbersome to not use the protocol endianness of Packet
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09:58<TomyLobo>my 4096x4096 map takes about 15 seconds to autosave. is that normal?
09:58<@planetmaker>slow disk and computer: why not
09:59<@planetmaker>it's as huge a map as you can get. And if you're watching a stream next to and and suck dry some leet torrents...
09:59<TomyLobo>it's only like 1-2 years old
09:59<TomyLobo>and no i dont
09:59<LordAro>saving a 4kx4k map is *going* to be slow
10:00<LordAro>there's not much you can do about that
10:00<TomyLobo>the worst thing that's running is steam but that's not loading anything right now
10:00<@planetmaker>not even downloading?
10:00<@planetmaker>it's known to auto-update stuff
10:01<TomyLobo>i would see that
10:01<TomyLobo>i know computers
10:03<@planetmaker>maybe you're also out-of ram and it needs to swap a lot
10:03<TomyLobo>49% physical memory
10:03<@planetmaker>as it first needs to make a complete copy of the map and then saves the copy
10:03<TomyLobo>openttd takes 387 mb right now
10:03<TomyLobo>i have 8gb
10:04<TomyLobo>i doubt it makes a dent :)
10:04<@peter1138>Yeah, 4Kx4K is quite big, and takes a while to compress.
10:09<@peter1138>Since when is age of the computer a good indication of its speed, anyway? :p
10:09<TomyLobo>not since
10:09<TomyLobo>but until netbooks came about
10:10<@planetmaker>so it's a 1.5 year old smartphone or tablet?
10:11<TomyLobo>yes, a 1.5 year old smartphone with 8gb of ram
10:11<TomyLobo>and netbooks came before smartphones and tablets, btw
10:14<b_jonas>there are smartphones with 8 GB of ram?
10:14<@Alberth>RAM is easy and cheap
10:14<b_jonas>sure, but in a smartphone too?
10:14<@Alberth>the question is does it have a fast CPU :p
10:14<TomyLobo>b_jonas i was being sarcastic
10:14<b_jonas>how's it even fit?
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10:25<Flygon>There's smartphones more powerful than my laptop
10:26<Flygon>Now if there was x64 Smartphones
10:27<FLHerne>Flygon: There are
10:27<FLHerne>Not very many, but someone certainly made an Intel-based Android device
10:29<Flygon>Still waiting on looping OTTD maps
10:29<Flygon>Civ II style looping anyone?
10:29<@peter1138>have you got a patch for it?
10:29<Flygon>World maaaaaaaaap :D
10:30<Flygon>I'm a lazy idiot civillian
10:30<Flygon>That complains about features that are too hard to code not being in the game
10:30<@peter1138>yeah, sometimes i forget i was born with the ability to code
10:31<Flygon>Hot dayum
10:31<Flygon>Are you like
10:31<Flygon>Tony Stark or something?
10:32<__ln__>wrong window
10:44<@peter1138>Generating a 4096x4096 map... reminds me of starting up Civ on my 386.
10:44<@peter1138>That took ages too :p
10:45<Flygon>Which Civ? :D
10:45<Flygon>If you want real fun
10:45<Flygon>Do a 2048*2048 Alpha Centauri game
10:45<@peter1138>Original, obviously.
10:46<Flygon>Their algorithms are... well, there's reason they warn to not breach 256*256
11:14<FLHerne>Hmm, the tile-based Python thing I'm hobby-poking on does that
11:15<FLHerne>Somehow manages to use exponentially-increasing amounts of memory as the map size increases
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11:54<@Alberth>growing dictionary of tiles or so?
11:56<FLHerne>Alberth: List. I don't really understand why.
11:57<@Alberth>yeah, weird
11:57<FLHerne>Goes from about 200B per-element (elements are fairly small) to >800B per-element
11:58<FLHerne>I assume it's indexing its elements in some way that doesn't scale well, but aargh
11:58<FLHerne>I'm trying to make it use a big numpy array instead
11:59<@Alberth>make a big list in one go [None] * (much) ?
12:00<@Alberth>should save some re-sizing and memory fragmentation due to that
12:01<@Alberth>I also found it helps if you aggressively set variables to None after use, when they point to big things and don't go out of scope
12:04<FLHerne>Alberth: The first thing looks simple to try and makes sense, I'll try that :-)
12:05<@Alberth>sys.getsizeof(object[, default]) <-- if you want to get funky :p
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12:08<FLHerne>Creating the thing in one go had no appreciable affect, sadly
12:09<FLHerne>I think just keeping all the data in a big numpy array should be a lot more efficient, because Python objects seem to have a massive individual size overhead that I don't really need
12:11<@Alberth>that shouldn't explain the growth per element, imho
12:11<@Alberth>element overhead doesn't grow if you have more of them
12:11<FLHerne>True, but even 200B is a bit silly for something with a couple of bytes of actual information
12:12<FLHerne>*couple of dozen
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12:12<@Alberth>there is also "slots" for classes, where you remove the dictionary of the object
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12:12<@Alberth>at the cost of not being able to make random new fields in them
12:15<@Alberth>I once threw out the lists by making a double-linked list myself
12:15<@Alberth>Obviously that will work horribly if you need random access :)
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12:15<@Alberth>hi andy
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12:17<FLHerne>Alberth: Ooh, hadn't heard of that. Looks useful.
12:22<@Alberth>slots is not recommended practice :p
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12:44<andythenorth>any gameplay advantage to single unit RVs?
12:44<andythenorth>they can use drive-in stops, is that a thing?
12:44<@Alberth>oh, those RVs :)
12:45<@Alberth>I hardly use drive-in things, too complicated
12:45<@peter1138>they can overtake
12:45<@peter1138>unless multi-part RVs can overtake these days
12:45<andythenorth>good point though
12:46<andythenorth>mining trucks overtaking
12:46<@Alberth>don't use enough RVs for overtaking
12:50<andythenorth>train sets definitely easier to design than RVs
12:50<FLHerne>andythenorth: Usually shorter, which is good for congestion
12:51<FLHerne>Even per-capacity, I think
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13:15<@peter1138>Ahhhh, this 2X UI is so usable for my oldness :p
13:16<@peter1138>Hmm, maybe I should just ditch my triple screen setup and go for a 50" 1920x1080 display...
13:21<andythenorth>is it commits?
13:24<@peter1138>No, I'm keeping it for myself.
13:24<@peter1138>I reckon a few years down the line I can say "I've got a patch for that."
13:26<andythenorth>nice touch
13:26<andythenorth>I have a whole truck set somewhere
13:26<andythenorth>didn’t quite work
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13:34<andythenorth>Ding Dong Mining Hauler
13:34<andythenorth>naming of parts :P
13:34<@peter1138>16 changed files :(
13:35<@peter1138>27KB patch :S
13:37<Pikka>is Leslie Phillips driving it, andythenorth?
13:37<andythenorth>maybe he should
13:38<andythenorth>Boom Boom Mining Hauler
13:38<@peter1138>Basil Brush?
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13:40<Pikka>obscure half-puns for vehicle names are a good feature
13:42<andythenorth>but do you have any cheese?
13:43<@peter1138>No, I wash regularly
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13:59<andythenorth>do you want ekranoplans?
13:59<andythenorth>and such
14:03<@Alberth>not really
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14:04<andythenorth>any reason?
14:04<@Alberth>there is little point of having a train if ships are equally fast or faster
14:05<@Alberth>they are much easier to build
14:07<andythenorth>I’ve sorted out most of Road Hog
14:07<andythenorth>I have this one weird case
14:07<andythenorth>foundry haulers
14:07<andythenorth>I often build tertiary industries (consumers of metal, manufacturing supplies etc) near the secondary that produces them
14:07<@Alberth>what's that?
14:08<andythenorth>there are some in HEQS
14:08<andythenorth>they are short and haul ~100t or so
14:08<andythenorth>and I use them on short flat routes where speed doesn’t matter much
14:08<@Alberth>sort of short distance scrap metal
14:08<andythenorth>yes, or steel etc
14:09<andythenorth>gameplay doesn’t benefit much from progression with these
14:09<andythenorth>they’re only worth using on short routes
14:09<andythenorth>and they’re only worth using if high capacity
14:09<andythenorth>so can’t figure out generations
14:10<@Alberth>have less generations?
14:12<@Alberth>of improve in smaller steps, ie only max speed, or capacity, but not both at the same time
14:12<Pikka>if there's no progression, don't have generations
14:12<Pikka>just have one :D
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14:14<andythenorth>Pikka: tram 4 eva?
14:15<Pikka>trams are silly
14:15<Pikka>but yes
14:15<Pikka>many tram
14:16<andythenorth>I might do one day some ‘industrial’ rosters or something
14:16<andythenorth>just 2 generations
14:16<andythenorth>all the silly big slow industrial things, rail and road
14:16<andythenorth>nothing else
14:16<andythenorth>just play for 50 years
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14:33<DanMacK>Hey all
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14:57<andythenorth>snow bus
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15:01<Pikka>that's no bus
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15:02<Pikka>for tropic rosters
15:02<andythenorth>if we had powered bit on road tiles
15:05<Pikka>roadtypes for 1.5, then?
15:05<Pikka>you've got until april, plenty of time
15:05<andythenorth>just a bit :P
15:05<andythenorth>world peace before roadtypes
15:05<andythenorth>tramway, powered tramway, road, powered road
15:06<Pikka>too much realisms, though
15:06<andythenorth>limitations cause creativity no?
15:06<Pikka>does having different roadtypes add to gameplay?
15:06<Pikka>does having different railtypes add to gameplay?
15:06<andythenorth>a bit
15:06<Pikka>it only adds to realisms
15:07<andythenorth>metro is valid
15:07<andythenorth>not sure about NG
15:07<Pikka>metro trains, perhaps. but would it really make much difference if they ran on "normal" track?
15:08<andythenorth>I obviously think so :)
15:08<frosch123>better add a feature to colour your roads
15:08<andythenorth>have to build segregated routes through cities
15:08<andythenorth>not sure that powered road tiles add much
15:08<andythenorth>but the catenary on non-electric trams bugs me
15:09<andythenorth>enough other eye candy crap is provided
15:09<Pikka>the default catenary is pretty ugly
15:09<andythenorth>and if we split ‘add power’ on the road building, might as well allow electric roads
15:09<andythenorth>for your electric horses
15:09<Pikka>"good" catenary is either less noticable or completely hidden imo
15:10<andythenorth>we could fix the default?
15:10<andythenorth>I usually make it invisible due to so ugly
15:10<Pikka>okay so
15:10<Pikka>draw better
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15:10<Pikka>submit for default
15:10<Pikka>then it won't look so bad
15:10<Pikka>even with non-electric trams
15:11<andythenorth>so no powered bit?
15:11<andythenorth>no trolley bus?
15:12<Pikka>it just seems like one more awkward hard-coded fudge to get around if roadtypes are ever added. + no trolley bus. Can't see it really adds anything except realisms? :o
15:12<andythenorth>I have nothing
15:12<Pikka>if you want restricted passenger vehicles, make them trams
15:13<andythenorth>partly it would amuse me to see not-roadtypes
15:13<Pikka>DanMacK, draw us better default tram catenary! :D
15:13<Pikka>that's because you're a stirrer, andythenorth
15:13<Pikka>innit just
15:13<andythenorth>I dunno
15:14<andythenorth>if nobody had ever added stupid things like livery overrides
15:14<andythenorth>where would we be today?
15:14<Pikka>I was thinking of removing livery overrides from a pineapple, actually. D:
15:14<andythenorth>I don’t even know what they are tbh
15:14<Pikka>making each coach generation a seperate vehicle. let players mix and match
15:15<Pikka>it would make "properly" upgrading MUs a bit more convoluted though.
15:15<Pikka>so I don't know
15:15<andythenorth>better living through Extending The Spec in The Wrong Direction
15:16<andythenorth>I’m sure that’s in Brian Eno’s cards
15:16<Pikka>Extending the Spec with BAD FEATURES which nobody in their right mind will ever use
15:16<Pikka>(see; aircraft range, and some other stuff I'm sure)
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15:17<Pikka>it seemed like a good idea at the time :)
15:17<andythenorth>lucky dip
15:17<andythenorth>“Do something sudden, destructive and unpredictable”
15:17<andythenorth>was mine
15:18<Pikka>you should use these for extra-text-in-buy-menu
15:18<Pikka>or industry window descriptions
15:18<andythenorth>what is ‘extra-text-in-buy-menu’ please?
15:18<Pikka>for wehicles
15:18<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE
15:19<andythenorth>I mostly removed it, except for boots
15:19<andythenorth>and even there I’m considering it....
15:19<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26935 trunk/src/company_gui.cpp (2014-09-28 19:19:47 UTC)
15:19<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Fit company colour selection drop down list to UI scale.
15:19<Pikka>at least you have some kind of build environment with language files. I was dicking about with manually adding translations. :D
15:20<andythenorth>well I broke the build environment with partial-compiling
15:20<Pikka>I felt bad
15:20<andythenorth>nml hates me
15:20<Pikka>I asked people for translations
15:20<Pikka>they provided translations
15:20<Pikka>I couldn't be bothered adding them to the grf
15:20<andythenorth>naughty Pikka that Pikka
15:21<Pikka>now I'm back to an english-only and minimal text policy :)
15:21<andythenorth>If I could remove the text from FIRS I would
15:21<andythenorth>maybe I should
15:22<Pikka>btw, please make an american horse ASAP
15:22<Pikka>so I can point people to it when they insist on using NARS
15:22<Pikka>does FIRS have much text?
15:23<Pikka>the in -> out ratios?
15:23<Pikka> / rules
15:23<andythenorth>supplies crap
15:23<andythenorth>if I could remove it
15:23<andythenorth>partial compiles would work
15:23<andythenorth>much faster
15:23<andythenorth>~20s instead of 3 mins
15:23<Pikka>supplies are a really good feature
15:23<Pikka>it's just the text, huh?
15:23<andythenorth>just the text
15:25<andythenorth>stupid thing is
15:25<andythenorth>I only invented supplies so I could add some Nodwells to HEQS
15:25<andythenorth>and I never added them
15:31<DanMacK> /me is back briefly
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15:39<TomyLobo>is it possible to make the multi-player autosave asynchronous, like in single-player mode?
15:41<@peter1138>Is it not?
15:41<TomyLobo>not for me
15:41<TomyLobo>it halts the game for some seconds
15:42<@peter1138>Well, there's the bit where it needs to make a complete copy of the map.
15:42<TomyLobo>up to the point where everyone gets timeout warnings
15:42<TomyLobo>hmmm, most of the map doesnt change, right?
15:42<@peter1138>. o O ( There was a reason not to allow stupidly large maps... )
15:43<TomyLobo>actually, why doesnt it halt the game in SP?
15:43<TomyLobo>by halting the game, i mean i get that "application does not respond" stuff
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15:45<@peter1138>Windows users, how quaint :-)
15:45<TomyLobo>i doubt it'd be much better on linux
15:46<@peter1138>That stuff only means it didn't respond to some Windows event, not that it is halted.
15:46<TomyLobo>i know
15:46<TomyLobo>but it doesnt draw, and doesnt respond to input
15:46<@peter1138>Because it's busy saving, I suppose.
15:46<TomyLobo>and why is that not happening in SP?
15:46<TomyLobo>with the same save?
15:47<@peter1138>Then I guess it is not a threaded save.
15:47<TomyLobo>yup, but why?
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15:51<TomyLobo>what would make a paused multiplayer game where nothing happens different from a paused singleplayer game where nothing happens?
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16:03<andythenorth>heavy haulage trucks?
16:03<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE?
16:03<andythenorth>low-loaders etc for supplies
16:06<@peter1138>doobry durkin
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16:08<Pikka>so many trucks and realisms
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16:10<andythenorth>is a no, yes?
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16:18<Pikka>I don't know
16:18<Pikka>I wouldn't, but
16:19<andythenorth>51 vehicles
16:20<andythenorth>probably enough
16:20<@peter1138>sometimes i think anti-realism is going to far
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16:20<@peter1138>not doing something because it might be realism
16:20<b_jonas>peter1138: uh, can you give an example for that?
16:20<Pikka>no-one's avoiding things because they might be realism
16:20<andythenorth>I have added unrealistic beer trams
16:20<Pikka>except maybe V
16:20<@peter1138>(put it this way, ukrs2 is WAY more enjoyable than 10cc)
16:21<andythenorth>also unrealistical milk tanker trams
16:21<andythenorth>and next, unrealistical oil tanker trams
16:22<andythenorth>but also most unrealistical things turn out to have happened, somewhere
16:22<andythenorth>with enough google
16:22<b_jonas>so, oil balloons?
16:22<b_jonas>yeah, even better
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16:27<Pikka>what makes ukrs2 WAY more enjoyable than 10cc?
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16:32<@peter1138>variety and limits
16:36<andythenorth>doesn’t pineapple have limits?
16:37<andythenorth>I thought it had low-powered engines and stuff?
16:37<@planetmaker>it does
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16:39<Pikka>ukrs2 has a mail wagon which has a 10mph lower speed limit than one locomotive, which is apparently not an enjoyable limit but "extremely annoying".
16:40<andythenorth>is players
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16:41<FLHerne>Pikka: The thing there is that it's sane for pax/mail to use the same routes or even trains (because the cargos behave identically), and 10mph is enough to be annoying but not to really make a difference :P
16:42<andythenorth>thing is
16:42<andythenorth>ukrs 2 hasn’t gone away
16:42<andythenorth>so now
16:42<andythenorth>New Things
16:42<Pikka>it should, but it hasn't :)
16:42<Pikka>although not as much as NARS2 should
16:43<FLHerne>Pikka: It won't, until BROS gets done :P
16:43<Pikka>are we still on BROS?
16:43<andythenorth>so never then
16:43<andythenorth>fucking BROS
16:43<andythenorth>appals me
16:43<Pikka>I thought we'd had at least a couple of reincarnations since BROS?
16:43<andythenorth>I really managed not to troll the Yet Another New BROS thread
16:44<andythenorth>was quite proud of myself
16:44<andythenorth>maybe Iron Horsies can kill NARS 2
16:44<Pikka>well done
16:44<andythenorth>but dunno
16:44<Pikka>it should
16:44<andythenorth>it’s not as much realisms
16:44<andythenorth>maybe just enough
16:44<Pikka>I honestly thought this week about making a better NARS
16:44<Pikka>cut down, no bad features
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16:45<Pikka>but then I couldn't be bothered and thought we can just wait until American Horses
16:45<Pikka>speaking of which, hello DanMacK
16:45<DanMacK>lol, hey Pikka
16:45<andythenorth>I kind of need one more silly vehicles for Road Hog brit roster
16:46<andythenorth>it’s a bit logical right now
16:46<andythenorth>4 generations of each vehicle type, types match your industries
16:46<andythenorth>is fine, but needs something odd
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16:46<DanMacK>heavy/slow well truck?
16:47<b_jonas>andythenorth: what are the four generations? horse-drawn, steam, diesel, electric?
16:48<andythenorth>trams, trucks
16:48<Pikka>DanMacK, we decided roadtypes was a bad idea anyway, just now. so we don't need to do them any more.
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16:49<Pikka>do brithogs have silly vehicles?
16:50<Pikka>no road trains, no trailer buses
16:50<andythenorth>brithogs not so much
16:50<andythenorth>beer tram, grain tram
16:50<andythenorth>all very sensible
16:50<andythenorth>there’s a silly container thing
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16:51<@peter1138>I should implement roadtypes just to spite you :D
16:51<Pikka>traction engines?
16:51<andythenorth>one or two
16:51<andythenorth>for logs
16:51<andythenorth>no bulldozers, no tractors, nothing like that
16:51<andythenorth>no snowplough...
16:52<Pikka>road-going hovercraft
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16:54<andythenorth>should have done this for the farm truck
16:54<andythenorth>wrong link
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16:55<Pikka>it's not too late?
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16:56<andythenorth>saving it for a Euro roster
16:56<andythenorth>all the whacky Dutch and German trucks
16:56<DanMacK>You should implement Roadtypes anyway :P
16:56<@peter1138>bah @ alignment
16:57<andythenorth>fork lift truck?
16:57<andythenorth>reach stacker?
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16:57<TomyLobo>is there a way to upgrade depots including the contained trains to monorail/maglev? will there ever be? :)
16:58<@peter1138> < y offset alert :S
16:58<Pikka>not unless you have a third railtype that's compatible with both to use as an intermediary, TomyLobo
16:59<Pikka>I think some rail set has one, probably by V.
16:59<@peter1138>oh, hmm, mind you the offsets are wrong in 1.4.3 too
17:00<TomyLobo>Pikka couldnt the vehicle replacing algo be used for that?
17:01<@peter1138>Feel free to write a patch to do that :D
17:01<SpComb>peter1138: this [x] button thing to close a window is soooo outdated
17:01<SpComb>you should just be able to swipe the dialog off the screen instead
17:02<@peter1138>Feel free to write a patch to do that :D
17:02<Pikka>peter1138, well, the sprites are already double-size, so yeah, they're going to go off the top :)
17:02<Pikka>I'll undouble them for the next release
17:02<@peter1138>Pikka, it's not using the double sprites there.
17:03<Pikka>oh. well, it's still using sprites double the size what they should be
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17:03<Pikka>I basically coded 4x sprites as 2x sprites for the buy menu
17:03<@peter1138>that's not the buy menu :)
17:03<SpComb>peter1138: maybe you need display: table-cell on the row and then vertical-align: middle; on the image!
17:03<Pikka>so it isn't
17:04<SpComb>this was the html5 rewrite branch, wasn't it?
17:04<Pikka>in which case, ignore me. :)
17:04<@peter1138>did you set the y-offset thing. if you did, then i guess it's just not used there.
17:04<b_jonas>garbage truck?
17:04<Pikka>I don't know what I set the y-offset thing to
17:04<Pikka>I possibly didn't set it
17:04<b_jonas>and selective garbage truck, available from 2000?
17:04<@peter1138>because your trains sit on the tracks, and you can see the wheels
17:04<b_jonas>or more like, selective garbage is produced only from 2000 in cities
17:05<@peter1138>ttd trains sit over the tracks, no wheels visible, at least in most cases
17:05<andythenorth>b_jonas: probably will do bin lorries yes, for FIRS recyclables
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17:06<Pikka>I'll add it to the list of things to look into for the next version
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17:06<DanMacK>I add wheels but for the angles they'd really be invisible
17:06<b_jonas>is there a set that replaces trams with trolleys?
17:06<DanMacK>you mean trolley buses?
17:07<b_jonas>probably those don't match trams well, because they need road too
17:07<b_jonas>there's no sense in building trolley-only road
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17:07<b_jonas>(they need... road types)
17:07<andythenorth>roadtypes suck
17:07<Pikka>no they don't, they just need to be coded as normal road vehicles ;)
17:08<andythenorth>hmm 30km/h 65t capacity forklifts o_O
17:08<andythenorth>on the internet
17:08<andythenorth>maybe in road hog
17:09<Pikka>but why?
17:09<Pikka>apart from the obvious
17:09<andythenorth>maybe I go looking for realisms here
17:09<b_jonas>um, taxis which take passengers anywhere, not just in stations?
17:10<Pikka>definitely the crocodile, andythenorth
17:10<andythenorth>the book is upstairs
17:10<andythenorth>hot dog car?
17:10<andythenorth>watermelon wagon?
17:10<andythenorth>pickle truck?
17:11<b_jonas>oh... ice cream lorries, which sell the ice cream to cities gradually, without stations in the city
17:11<b_jonas>(still needs a station at the ice cream factory)
17:11<b_jonas>nah, that's too toyland
17:11<b_jonas>school buses?
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17:12<b_jonas>combine harvesters that don't transport anything but make farms produce more?
17:12<b_jonas>oh, I know! amphibious buses that can go on roads and rivers
17:12<b_jonas>those exist in real life though they're a very bad idea
17:13<b_jonas>make them break down often, and get destroyed by crashing in the water
17:14<@Rubidium>peter1138: async autosave in MP is hard as that save interferes with saving for joins, and as such it's not async
17:18<b_jonas>flying cars from 2000?
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17:55<andythenorth>time for bed
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18:48<@peter1138>but richard scarry!
18:49<FLHerne>peter1138: Ha, I love those books :D
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18:59<@peter1138>Everybody should.
19:00<Pikka>no swearing on the forums, peter1138. tut tut.
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19:03<@peter1138>Hmm, non-TGP maps are broken :S
19:04<@peter1138>Should be a couple of water tiles around each edge, I think.
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21:22<SHOTbyGUN>seems like the recommendation is many small trains, but I like loong trains more... but that causes all cargo to dissappear :( any tips?
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21:39<Eddi|zuHause>have a truck go in circles to keep the station rating up
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>or use FIRS with the switch to keep station rating independent from service frequency
22:07<SHOTbyGUN><Eddi|zuHause> thanks! I have FIRS in use, but I didint realize to check parameters. I suppose I need new game to enable it :o
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22:32<SHOTbyGUN>I find it hard to describe how good game this is
22:35<SHOTbyGUN>its like railway simulator and Simcity are like rotten fruits... and OpenTTD is like holy pie
22:50<SHOTbyGUN>but the game default settings are horrible... it have taken 2 days ... just editing advanced settins and finding fixes to issues like above... eg. why train acceleration is not realistic by default..etc...
22:53<SHOTbyGUN>and bigges issue is font size / icon size... took some time to google fixes to that... (edit config file manually + install bigIcons modfix) ... but after that is been said, its best tycoon/simulation game ever existed
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 29 00:00:30 2014