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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-09-30

---Logopened Tue Sep 30 00:00:32 2014
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03:44<V453000>where were written the IDs of tiles? like 12048-20134 temperate, 2103-25566 arctic grass, temperate rough, rocks, ...
03:45<@peter1138>src/table/sprites.h irc you're lucky
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03:46<V453000>in ogfx+ ?
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03:55<@planetmaker>in OpenTTD. But OpenGFX' source is also pretty clear about that
03:55<@planetmaker>or also opengfx+landscape
03:56<@planetmaker>also, grass is grass. arctic grass has the same ID as temperate grass as tropical grass as toyland grass
03:56<@planetmaker>temperate rocks the same ID as arctic rocks as tropical rocks
03:56<@planetmaker>desert is the same as snow
03:57<@planetmaker>no kidding
03:58<@planetmaker>if you're into landscape NewGRF, just look at OpenGFX+landscape
03:58<V453000>okay :)
03:58<@planetmaker>basically I can recommend: take the code, replace the sprites
03:58<@planetmaker>there's no magic at all, just simple sprite replacement and climate / parameter check
03:59<@planetmaker>maybe rather use pota-ghat. It's slightly smaller in terms of code
03:59<@planetmaker>but ignores arctic in turn :)
04:00<V453000>wasnt there a huge spreadsheet somewhere like but a lot bigger and with sprite numbers?
04:00<@planetmaker>not that I know
04:00<@planetmaker>please create one :P
04:00<@planetmaker> has one, though
04:00<@planetmaker>but just a list
04:01<V453000>I guess I will just ravage the pnml files then :D
04:01<@planetmaker>on the other hand I don't quite see how a huge spreadsheet would help more than this kind of list
04:01<V453000>this is good :)
04:02<@planetmaker>the order of all landscape sprite sets of 19 slopes is always the same. You can look at any such png file in the projects
04:02<@planetmaker>or just the template definition
04:02<@planetmaker>which you can also rip 1:1 as there's no freedom in it
04:03<V453000>how would I go about making x4 zoom with opengfx+ code? just alternative sprites and x4-sizing the templates?
04:03<@planetmaker>basically yes. pota-ghat has a 4x template
04:04<@planetmaker> and template
04:05<V453000>found that (: where can I find the x4 png?
04:05<@planetmaker>well, obviously you'll need to adjust the x/y positions in the spritesheet to yours, but you get the idea :)
04:05<V453000>well I can easily create the same spritesheet
04:05<@planetmaker>especially line 91ff in the template file
04:05<@planetmaker>yeah, or that
04:06<V453000>but there is just so many images that I cant orientate in it at all yet :D
04:06<@planetmaker>well, that's where you first look at the code
04:06<@planetmaker>it tells you which spriteset shows which
04:07<@planetmaker>if (climate == CLIMATE_TEMPERATE) { definitions for temperate sprites }
04:07<@planetmaker>and the definition for temperate/arctic/tropical/toyland sprites all look the same in that if clause
04:08<V453000>I dont see src/gfx/grass_nogrid_tropical.gimp.png in the repository :d
04:08<@planetmaker>like I just linked in the arctic - one of those sections for grid or without grid
04:08<@planetmaker>it's a repetition, too
04:08<@planetmaker>V453000, yes, they all are generated from the gimp file in opengfx+landscape
04:08<@planetmaker>thus no png files there. Or only very few
04:09<@planetmaker>there are like 3 main graphics source files for the landscape which allow me to compose the tiles from different overlays. Especially handy for coastal sprites and rivers. And also snow transitions
04:09<V453000>but where is the actual sprite that pota ghat uses then?
04:09<@planetmaker>also in a gimp source file. Just 10x bigger :P
04:10<@planetmaker>same principle
04:10<@planetmaker>can you open gimp files? I could otherwise upload some of them somewhere for your convenience
04:11<V453000>after I install gimp yeah
04:11<@planetmaker> actually has the working dir of the last build, thus all files
04:11<@planetmaker>in src/gfx
04:12<@planetmaker>similar link for opengfx+landscape
04:12<@planetmaker>gotta go. see you laters
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04:42<@planetmaker>V453000, especially for roads and the default rail/monorail/maglev tiles an overlay approach is also very useful
04:42<V453000>that I understand very well, 3D gets that done easily ;)
04:44<blathijs>1/win 21
04:47<V453000>your method is interesting I have to say :D
04:47<V453000>the holes are funny
04:47<V453000>pm is your tile shape same as 1x zoom but just x4?
04:48<V453000>I was trying to make smooth edges and resigned so far so just upsized x1 :D
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05:04<@planetmaker>V453000, yes, I just scaled the 1x thing 4x and used it as mask
05:04<@planetmaker>I'm not convinced anymore it's the best approach, but it was then the easiest for me to do, too
05:06<@planetmaker>smoother edges and aliasing has other issues, though. E.g. at connection of bridges to roads / rail. Or with foundations or immediately adjacent buildings. But that will need looking at
05:06<@planetmaker>zbase does it that straight aliasing way, too, I think
05:07<@planetmaker>one thing I'd like to try is a not exactly straight tile border, but a slightly more wiggle-waggle with aliasing
05:07<@planetmaker>but that might also be a big fail :)
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05:08<Eddi|zuHause>afair straight borders leaves some gaps in combination with upscaled sprites from other grfs
05:09<@planetmaker>they do
05:09<@peter1138>Until everything is 4x, yes.
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>which was complained lengthily about in the forum
05:09<@planetmaker>or can do. Depends on how you play it, actually
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: but you can't guarantee that all newgrfs provide 4x
05:10<@planetmaker>no, one can't. But that's on the other hand, the usual risk for combining NewGRFs: they simply might not fit together well
05:10<@peter1138>I don't care.
05:10<@planetmaker>that's even the case for 8bpp only. It might simply clash. So it's not something entirely new
05:11<@peter1138>Straight edges is definitely the way.
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05:11<@planetmaker>I wonder whether the aliasing should only be in the direction of the forward edges and not on the backward one
05:13<@peter1138>You can have antialiasing if your tile edges overlap a little. The glitches with AA happen because it's right on the edge.
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05:13<@planetmaker>yeah, the problem occurs if the adjacent tile is not a landscape one but something else where the antialiasing does not fit too well.
05:14<@planetmaker>but that's minor, too, I recon
05:14<@peter1138>planetmaker, if it's in front, it will overwrite.
05:14<@peter1138>By little I mean 1 pixel or so, at 4x.
05:15<@planetmaker>yeah. And true... sprites are drawn back to front... hmpf
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06:02<V453000>well I will try upscaled x1 -> x4 for now
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06:04<V453000>creating clean x4 seemed like impossible to me so far
06:04<V453000>it always collides somehow
06:04<V453000>or idk
06:04<@peter1138>Probably zBase uses wrong offsets or something :p
06:04<V453000>will try to at least slower approach, x1 -> upscale -> perhaps edit that
06:04<V453000>I was testing with ttd-win not zbase
06:05<@peter1138>4x straight edges will always glitch with 1x-upscaled sprites.
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06:06<juzza1>can you show me your 4x tile mask?
06:07<V453000>well then I will just work from somewhat glitchy to actually working
06:07<@peter1138>And zBase itself is glitchy, so you can't really use that as a reference.
06:08<@peter1138>Hmm, I had a scaler that tried to make straight edges once.
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06:09<V453000>I had
06:10<V453000>but 1. problem is to get them right in the image because you can Only move them by offsets by units of 4px
06:10<V453000>2. they do not fit together perfectly, just almost
06:10<V453000>but then, not even ttd-win or ogfx fits together perfectly in all variants
06:10<V453000>there always seem to be some combinations which are broken
06:10<V453000>well they dont look broken in the game but in the template it is
06:12<V453000>problem 1 is critical, which is why I am trying to start from upscaled x1
06:12<V453000>am hoping to get at least the positioning right there
06:15<@peter1138>How do you get the sprite aligner up?
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06:15<V453000>what do you mean?
06:15<@peter1138>How do you get to it.
06:15<@peter1138>Ok, menu.
06:15<V453000>menu -> sprite aligner, done?
06:16<V453000>is there some ultrawtfx4 mode?
06:16<@peter1138>Ok, it's easy to fix that to do 1 pixel at a time.
06:16<juzza1>some of those slopes were tricky when i did some testing recently
06:16<V453000>juzza1: did you do x4?
06:16<juzza1> might help, tiles created from those masks seemed correct
06:18<@peter1138>Well, the lines should be same at 1x and 4x, just longer :)
06:18<V453000>wtf is that :D
06:18<juzza1>all tiles can be created from combinations of those masks
06:18<V453000>do you have any sprites created from this?
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06:19<juzza1>trying to find where i put my test sprites
06:19<@peter1138>Heh, of course, those "x/2-1" offsets suck with * 4
06:20<@peter1138>31 -> 124 instead of 127.
06:20<@peter1138>wouldn't be a problem if it was just x/2 :S
06:21<juzza1>V453000: i uploaded the full masks now
06:23<V453000>interesting, I will test it and let you know
06:23<V453000>could you zip it please? or should I just download x19 :D
06:27<@peter1138>Hmm, I broke it. The sprite doesn't move within the sprite aligner window...
06:28<@peter1138>Oh, maybe it's not meant to?
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>no, you're meant to check the alignment with nearby sprites on the actual map
06:28<@peter1138>Ok, that means I just fixed the window to work with 2X GUI then :p
06:29<V453000>(. thanks
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>(at least that is how i used it)
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>you're missing an eye
06:31<@peter1138>Yeah I tested with 1.4.3 and it doesn't move then either, heh.
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>there wouldn't be a lot of point to moving a sprite on an empty background...
06:32<@peter1138>It does need a reference point, yes.
06:32<@peter1138>There is code to fiddle with offsets, which I see now is to cancel them out so that the image is always centred.
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>furthermore, it would break the window if the sprite had crazy offsets
06:34<juzza1>peter1138: iirc the height is 127 for non-scaled 4x tiles, if you use straight lines, because the adjancent pixels also only take 1px space vertically (instead of the 4 pixels that would be required if simply scaling up)
06:34<juzza1>cant explain it properly, it seems
06:35<juzza1>by non-scaled i mean true 4x tiles without upscaling
06:36<@peter1138>Yes, it's all awkward, I know.
06:36<@peter1138> < V453000
06:36<@peter1138>ignore that
06:36<juzza1>and by adjancent pixels i meant adjancent tiles ofc...
06:36<V453000> /me duz not .diff :P
06:37<@peter1138>Ok, fixed it :P
06:37<@planetmaker>sizes are 64*zoom and 32*zoom-1
06:37<@peter1138>Probably also meant adjacent :)
06:37<juzza1>true :D
06:38<@peter1138>planetmaker, yes.
06:38<@peter1138>Should we skip future problems and go with 8x? :P
06:39<b_jonas>peter1138: sure, but add 64 bit color support as well (16 bit depth for each color component)
06:39<V453000>would be nice grf size
06:39<@peter1138>Hmm, we should allow using videos as sprites, for animation...
06:40<@peter1138>So a 512x255 resolution 20 second video clip with encoding that supports 64bpp.
06:40<@peter1138>512x255 sounds tiny when you bring the word video into it :-)
06:41<b_jonas>peter1138: that will be difficult, such video encodings aren't too spread yet.
06:41<@peter1138>So we'll make one.
06:41<@peter1138>That'll avoid needing more dependencies too ;)
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06:43<V453000>juzza1: mask005 is invalid I think
06:44<V453000>that tile does not exist
06:45<@peter1138>11:36 < V453000> /me duz not .diff :P
06:45<@peter1138>Wait, you mean you won't test it? :(
06:46<V453000>I have no idea how to compile openttd peter
06:46<@peter1138>Ok fine, then I will commit at lunch time (I'm ... working now) and then it'll be in the nightly.
06:47<@peter1138>And so the UI will be useful for 4x sprite alignment.
06:48<Pikkaphone>16x ez!
06:49<Pikkaphone>32bpp newgrfs aren't big enough yet
06:49<@peter1138>It is 16x! (in area)
06:49<V453000>juzza1: found it :D I think
06:50<juzza1>V453000: it does, it just looks weird because of the colors. its a tile where west and east corners are up
06:50<juzza1>ok :)
06:50<Pikkaphone>so it's the ui scaling you're committing?
06:50<@peter1138>No, not yet.
06:50<@peter1138>Still working on that.
06:51<juzza1>V453000: the numbers (should) correspond to "sprite offset" here
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06:54<V453000>mhm :))
06:54<V453000>but isnt x4 offset x4?
06:55<@peter1138>that's sprite index offset, not sprite position offset
06:56<V453000>I see, yeah
06:56<V453000>hate that numbering XD
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06:57<@peter1138>You know who to blame :-)
06:58*Pikkaphone blames peter, as usual
06:59<@planetmaker>we should push blame once around in circles. That effectively diffuses it ;)
06:59<@planetmaker>common practise shown in politics. Very efficient
07:01<Pikkaphone> ?
07:11<Pikkaphone>company colored German train set
07:11<Pikkaphone>that's an idea...
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07:29<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26941 trunk/src/newgrf_debug_gui.cpp (2014-09-30 11:29:23 UTC)
07:29<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Make NewGRF sprite aligner work with GUI size.
07:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26942 trunk/src/newgrf_debug_gui.cpp (2014-09-30 11:35:21 UTC)
07:35<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Make sprite aligner useful for people making full-zoom graphics.
07:35<Pikkaphone>I never worked out how to use the sprouts aligner
07:35<Pikkaphone>as my phone keyboard calls it
07:36<@peter1138>Sprouts definitely need aligning.
07:37*Pikkaphone bbs
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08:44<@peter1138>juzza1, nice masks... of course the trick is to apply them to the ground tile but not anything that intentionally overlaps... :)
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09:49<@planetmaker>juzza1, what about the different hue in the masks?
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10:02<V453000>planetmaker: that is remains from creating them from the angle shapes
10:03<V453000>just using it as alpha mask is fine
10:07<V453000>I havent yet tried if they actually work in the grf
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10:13<juzza1>the colors were just an indicator for myself to separate the different "angles" of each corner
10:14<juzza1>its just an alpha mask really
10:14<@peter1138>inb4 someone uses them as ground tiles...
10:14<juzza1>not intended to be used as an actual 32bpp mask in a spriteset
10:14<juzza1>heh :P
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11:07<@planetmaker>juzza1, but as alpha mask it looks weired to me, looking at 06 for instance
11:09<@planetmaker>juzza1, and from other tiles I had the impression that sun was directly at 3 o'clock instead of later in the after noon
11:09<@planetmaker>assuming that brightness means alpha
11:10<juzza1>the color doesnt mean anything
11:10<juzza1>stuff around the tile is transparent
11:11<@planetmaker>ok, I thought (and actually hoped) that the colour would mean something :)
11:12<@planetmaker>but then, the illumination for ground tiles anyway probably needs some individual adjustment
11:12<@planetmaker>I found that a rather tricky thing to create for pota-ghat, the brightness of the surface for the different slopes once I wanted to go beyond just straight lines
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11:17<@peter1138>well your lighting set up should handle that :p
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12:35*peter1138 ponders trying that magical feature again... CBH.
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12:36<@Rubidium>you scared Celestar away!
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12:38<@Rubidium>want to revive Celestar's patch (r9109)? Or start from scratch?
12:50<@peter1138>I think that might be a little old :-)
12:59<V453000>juzza1: I am not sure if your tiles are flawless, but they certainly do look operational in game :)
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13:00<@peter1138>V453000, exhibit
13:00<V453000>what does that mean
13:00<@peter1138>Show us.
13:01<V453000>UNCLEAR ORDERS
13:01<V453000>replacing arctic landscape
13:01<V453000>only standard grass tiles atm
13:02<V453000>best way to see it is get scenario editor, new map, hilly, with high snow line
13:02<@peter1138>Oh ah, well, I meant a pic, but okay :p
13:02<V453000>pic isnt as good :)
13:05<V453000>guess making offset one px to the right would help too
13:05<V453000>in X
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13:06<V453000>yeah it does
13:08<V453000>well, looks worky :) now just to replace the rest of the things (:
13:08<@peter1138>-124 to match default sprites, but that technically incorrect. Hmm.
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13:09<V453000>did :)
13:09<@peter1138>I mean, the default sprites are still not gonna match, so might as well be correct.
13:09<V453000>-31 and -124 I have
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13:09<V453000>hmh :D
13:10<V453000>idk why -31 fits
13:10<V453000>the sprite is 64 wide
13:10<@peter1138>depends on the slope
13:10<V453000>I use one template for all
13:10<@peter1138>no it's not
13:10<@peter1138>it's 256 wide
13:10<V453000>256 wide is the one with -124
13:10<V453000>64 the one with -31
13:11<@peter1138>-31 is the default
13:11<V453000>right :)
13:11<@peter1138>because... reasons? dunno
13:11<@peter1138>-32 would've made it simpler
13:11<V453000>that is what I kind of implied would be default XD
13:11<V453000>but ok
13:11<V453000>it works = me happy
13:11<V453000>now I just need to create the models :)
13:11<@peter1138>Now make it look like less of a texture applied to a flat surface :p
13:12<V453000>roadz, ...
13:12<V453000>well that is another thing, there will be more to do
13:12<V453000>just needed to have it operational before some fiddling :)
13:13<@peter1138>Hmm, the bounding box is on -32 (-128)
13:15<@peter1138>Is that with aliased edges?
13:15<V453000>I dont have any aliasing
13:15<V453000>everything 100% precise edge
13:15<@peter1138>It is aliased then.
13:15<@peter1138>Not anti-aliased.
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13:44<xQR>hey, is there any way to display colored text without using a predefined text from a language file via GSText?
14:00<@Rubidium>I fear not
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14:03<@peter1138>can you inject the codes? heh
14:03<@peter1138>or is it only ttd(p?) codes that are allowed
14:07<@Rubidium>peter1138: I fear string validation filters them out
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14:17<Wolf01>hi hi
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14:24<@Alberth>hi hi
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14:50<xQR>i was afraid you would say that :/
14:52<@peter1138>V453000, oh yeah, the sprite aligner should be nicer now :p
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15:08<Supercheese>Awesome, USS Macon is Wikipedia's featured picture
15:14<NGC3982_>!g uss macon
15:14<NGC3982_>We don't have that.
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15:15<Supercheese>of the sort that clearly inspired the creators of the movie "Up!"
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15:53<FLHerne>Wasn't that one of their flying-aircraft-carrier things? With skyhooks>
15:55<NGC3982_>How come my servers suddenly have a lot of players when i name them "ERMAGERD DICKBUTT"
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16:47<Eddi|zuHause>"Windows 10"... weren't they already one marketing version ahead of the actual version?
16:48<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: They're still on '6' for the actual version aren't they?
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
16:48<FLHerne>Unless Win8 bumped it. Vista and 7 were definitely both 6.x
16:49<__ln__>Vista is 6.0 and 7 is 6.1, or something like that.
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have a 7 or 8 to actually look it up
16:50<Prof_Frink>And they're still behind Macos and Umbongo.
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16:56<Eddi|zuHause>3.1 was the first one i used
16:58*planetmaker started with 2.7. And stopped with XP
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>i have a work laptop with vista on it. but i rarely actually work on it
16:59<@Rubidium>I reckon that they decided that Windows 9 would've been a too negative campaign in Germany
16:59<FLHerne>I used Mac OS (classic), Win2k, OSX 10.4, WinXP and now Linux
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: ?
17:00<FLHerne>People moan about XP now, but compared to real MacOS everything is wonderful! ;P
17:00<@Rubidium>Windows Nein
17:00<Sylf>I still can't make myself wean off of windows
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but everybody would say "Windows Neun", so that doesn't make sense at all...
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17:01*Rubidium wouldn't
17:01<FLHerne>Sylf: Just install Linux over it, and never look back :P
17:02<Sylf>But I already have a linux box too
17:02<Sylf>2, actually
17:02<Sylf>wait, make it 3 >_<
17:02<FLHerne>Ah, but if you have to go through Windows' horrible install process first you'll be less likely to go back to it ;-)
17:03<@Rubidium>install isn't so horrible, it's the fact that you've got a gaping security leak after the install ;)
17:04<@Rubidium>plus several cycles of installing updates
17:04<@Rubidium>*how* hard can it be to do that all during installation?
17:04<__ln__>indeed, installation is quick and painless, ~15 minutes. but installing all the updates takes ~8h.
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17:06<@Rubidium>but alas... those companies advertise on install time and the ease of it; having to wait to download stuff is just a nuisance during install
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17:06<Eddi|zuHause>i seem to remember that XP later came with SP2 or SP3 included
17:07<__ln__>FLHerne: btw, you'll look back to windows as soon as you attempt to play audio on linux.
17:07<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: and you still need to install something like 100+ patches on top of that
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but that's fairly normal for physical disk based installs... you can't release a new CD every week
17:08<FLHerne>__ln__: I do play audio on Linux, not looking back yet :P
17:09<FLHerne>__ln__: OTOH, I don't have any setup requiring PulseAudio, so that might help
17:09<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but you *can* make it so that it downloads the latest version of the file/package/... during installation
17:10<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26943 trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp (2014-09-30 21:10:32 UTC)
17:10<@DorpsGek>-Fix: [Win32] Silence a warning about comparison of signed and unsigned variables when using gcc
17:11<@peter1138>Audio on Linux is easy.
17:13<@planetmaker>yes. And no. I've one PC where it's not that easy. Actually I stopped bothering
17:14<@planetmaker>and it needed a bit browsing the webs to get it going on wheezy on this machine, too
17:14<@planetmaker>auto-detection didn't quite work. Did on fedora, though
17:16<FLHerne>I haven't had any driver/hw-detection issues on here at all, except the ethernet port which just plain doesn't work
17:16<FLHerne>I think that might just be hardware clobberedness though
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17:33<Eddi|zuHause>the only driver problems i ever had were graphics and the TV card which i had to adjust manually once...
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21:19<DanMacK>Hey all
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 01 00:00:33 2014