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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-10-01

---Logopened Wed Oct 01 00:00:33 2014
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04:03<@planetmaker>moin
04:04<@peter1138>hi
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04:55<__ln__>http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wkoQqoSuQB4/VCsFchHadgI/AAAAAAAAB-o/zcuyvq7E8F4/w449-h600-no/download.jpg
04:59<@peter1138>:)
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05:02<fjb>Moin
05:03<fjb>__ln__: Obviously working perfectly.
05:05<Eddi|zuHause>but maybe that's the actual point?
05:07<Xaroth|Work>it's a metaphor; one side will have to give for it to work
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05:08<fjb>I think it is quite realistic, sometimes.
05:09<@peter1138>Shhh, don't use that word.
05:09<Xaroth|Work>https://i.imgur.com/WAdABqW.jpg << idea for an oil/fuel truck grf.
05:09<V453000>tanks peter1138 , will try
05:09<V453000>da alignor
05:10<@peter1138>Xaroth|Work, that is rather weird looking...
05:10<@peter1138>Also, false colour.
05:10<Xaroth|Work>http://www.diseno-art.com/news_content/2014/04/texaco-doodlebug/
05:10<Xaroth|Work>it's a colourized image
05:10<lastmikoi>that looks weird
05:11<Xaroth|Work>6 ever built, apparently
05:14<@planetmaker>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik58iA4qZx4 <-- better use a gear like that than shown in that ad, __ln__ ;)
05:14<@planetmaker>no real motion either, but at least it looks like :P
05:16<@peter1138>Such torque
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06:26<Eddi|zuHause>i always wonder what must go through these designers' heads... "we need something technical. gears sound good"... "we need something dynamic. three is a very dynamic number"
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06:32<SHOTbyGUN>does "symmetrical" make cargodist generate passengers like double rate?
06:33<@planetmaker>generation is independent of distribution
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06:35<@peter1138>Meh, I wanna fix up TGP again :S
06:39<fjb>What is TGP?
06:39<@planetmaker>terrain generator
06:39<@planetmaker>(of openttd)
06:40<fjb>Ah. What is wrong with it?
06:41<@peter1138>It's not OO ;)
06:41<fjb>Very wrong then.
06:41<@peter1138>I can do "variety distribution" much better if its abstracted out so that I can have any number of heightmaps during generation.
06:42<@peter1138>*it's
06:42<fjb>I always scare my coworkers with OO.
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06:46<@planetmaker>variety distribution was also your addition, was it, peter1138 ?
06:47<@planetmaker>even when it's scewed on maps with huge aspect ratio, it's a very nice thing to give... well... variety :P
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it's a very useful feature
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't mean its implementation is good :)
06:48<V453000>if it didnt make the map 100% flat on majority of it, it would be nice
06:48<@planetmaker>V453000, it doesn't with the proper other settings
06:49<V453000>it makes a lot more flat areas than without it
06:49<@planetmaker>I'd not use it, if it did
06:49<@peter1138>planetmaker, yes, exactly, I can do it better.
06:49<@planetmaker>yes, it makes some flat areas. That's the purpose
06:49<@peter1138>V453000, yes, that's the problem. It's crap :p
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: maybe just start from scratch?
06:50<argoneus_>hello train people
06:50<@planetmaker>and re-define the meaning of variety distribution
06:51<@peter1138>Also I saw a tectonic simulation done in JS... wondering about porting that.
06:51<@peter1138>Probably horribly slow, but if JS can do it...
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>terrain generation doesn't have to be particularly fast
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>there was a tectonic generator for Civ IV
06:51<@peter1138>No, which is why TGP's optimisations are weird.
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>(which means python)
06:52<@peter1138>It also doesn't need to be hooked so closely to the map code. You can just generate a heightmap and use the heightmap importer internally...
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>i wanted to add river generation to TGP once, but it was impractical
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>because river placement is too restrictive
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>and terraforming was weird
06:53<@Rubidium>peter1138: can you also make the rest of TGP then work for higher maps? ;)
06:53<@peter1138>Who knows, maybe :-)
06:54<@peter1138>TGP fails with lots of water.
06:54<@peter1138>When I want 67% water, I want a few big landmasses, a big ocean, and some reasonable lakes
06:54<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/hl/10_activate.diff <- you'll need that to test with higherlevels
06:55<@peter1138>Instead it you... water and small impractical islands everywhere.
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's what i meant with "too uniform on large scale". instead of big clumps, you get lots of small clumps
06:55<@peter1138>...
06:55<@peter1138>Instead, you get...
06:55-!-argoneus_ is now known as argoneus
06:55<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yes. With a decent variety distribution, it's possible. Not perfect though.
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should start with a larger initial wiggle?
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>like a wave frequency that is larger than the map size
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07:01<@peter1138>Other things you can do with a heightmap: treat it as a binary field with some threshold. If true, place a tree at this spot. Gives you clumps of trees you can call forests, and bare plain areas.
07:02<@peter1138>Well, doesn't even need to be binary, as we can have more than one tree on a tile, but still.
07:02<@peter1138>I'm not sure what the improved tree algorithm is.
07:02<@peter1138>Seems to just be random.
07:02<@peter1138>In fact the original algorithm already gave clumps.
07:03<@peter1138>So "improved" really isn't.
07:03<@peter1138>Is that option anything to do with generation, or does it just affect the tile loop tree process?
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>never quite understood what that even does
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's just the initial generation
07:05<@peter1138>Grr, mobile phone tickling my speakers :(
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07:44<@planetmaker>peter1138, when I want much water, an island map is something which can be very enjoyable, too
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07:46<@peter1138>planetmaker, I mainly mean on something like a 2048x2048 map :)
07:47<@planetmaker>:)
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07:47<@peter1138>Still applies to normal size maps, just not so extreme.
07:47<@planetmaker>probably like some equal distribution over a logarithmic size scale or similar
07:49<@peter1138>And then TGP's sea-erosion algorithm... is only applied to the edge of the map...
07:50<@planetmaker>historical raisins in the tgp pie
07:50<Pikka>pining for the fjords
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07:52<@peter1138>Gah, stupid having ideas while I'm at work :(
07:52<@peter1138>http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2014-09/30/15/enhanced/webdr09/enhanced-buzz-wide-20110-1412105435-29.jpg :S
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07:54<@peter1138>"I have to change players to the owner of that airport, and then un close it." < so... using a patch of some sort?
07:55<@planetmaker>spring patch pack. He writes it
07:55<@peter1138>Hmm, somehow missed that line.
07:55<@planetmaker>somewhat aged, desync-buggy patch pack
07:57<@planetmaker>however even 1.4.3 there seems to be still a desync issue at times. But I didn't get any data for that yet
07:58<@peter1138>Hmm, he already posted into that thread a month ago...
07:58<@planetmaker>it's also not exactly maintained anymore :)
07:59<@planetmaker>I shouldn't say "any data". But the savegames, and especially the starting savegame is missing. command log along is insufficient, I recon
08:02<@peter1138>Not had any problems with my server game yet.
08:02<@peter1138>Not using any NewGRFs though.
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08:12<@planetmaker>I didn't see it on my servers, but on the reddit ones. So it obviously requires some special setup
08:12<@planetmaker>some settings which neither you nor me use
08:12<@peter1138>They probably have some patch :p
08:12<@planetmaker>supposedly not on those two servers
08:13<@planetmaker>it's a rare desync but it happens occasionally. Like once per day or so
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10:23<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: there's nothing (anymore) that prevents you from using a large initial "wiggle"
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10:34<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but the smoothing (or sharpening) of hill tops is probably worth an additional parameter
10:35<@Rubidium>well, as I understand TGP now it's just a series of waves with different amplitudes and frequencies added together
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes. and then there's some weird "sine transformation" on top of that
10:35<@Rubidium>with a higher low frequency wave and lower high frequency wave you get smooth maps
10:36<@Rubidium>with lower low frequency and (especially) higher high frequency waves you get more rugged maps (more/higher peaks)
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>and this sine transformation, as far as i understand, was meant to cut off the pointy hill-tops, to map them into openttd's limited height space
10:37<@Rubidium>hmm... yeah, it does some weird stuff
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>whereas with an "alpinist" setting, you'd want the opposite effect. hills should be more pointy
10:38<@Rubidium>though tropic is different from arctic which are different from toyland and temperate
10:43<argoneus>when the game desyncs
10:43<argoneus>is it the server telling the players "YOU ARE WRONG" and kicking them?
10:44<@Rubidium>does it matter who tells who is wrong?
10:44<argoneus>yes
10:44<@Rubidium>why?
10:44<argoneus>the clients shouldn't be able to correct the server
10:44<argoneus>see: memory editing
10:45<@Rubidium>well, the clients are always wrong. Whether it's the server or the client that comes to that conclusion shouldn't matter
10:45<argoneus>I see servers are the opposite of restaurants
10:45<argoneus>"the customer is always wrong"
10:46<@Rubidium>well, it doesn't say "wrong"; they come to the conclusion that they have a different view of the game state
10:46<V453000>LOL
10:47<@planetmaker>they basically started playing different games. Thus the server says "please, then play on your own" :)
10:47<blathijs>And technically, the server doesn't even care if the client is right or wrong, since it just takes (and validates) commands from the client, it doesn't allow directly modifying the game state
10:48<@planetmaker>very kindly :P
10:48<@planetmaker>psst, blathijs :)
10:48<V453000>in short the server says fuck off
10:48<V453000>very quickly
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10:50<@planetmaker>now you scared him, V453000 ! ;)
10:50<argoneus>I never really understood netcode in games
10:50<argoneus>especially things like prediction
10:50<argoneus>or interpolation or whatever
10:50<argoneus>doesn't the game have to do a full sync once in a while to figure out there's a desync?
10:50<@planetmaker>no
10:50<argoneus>like every 10 commands say "okay, I think you have this much money"
10:51<argoneus>"n-no I have 500 billion, I s-s-swear!!"
10:51<@planetmaker>and yes, it does these kind of checks
10:51<@peter1138>there's no prediction or interpolation in ottd
10:51<blathijs>argoneus: Sortof, instead OpenTTD summarizes the entire gamestate into a single number and compares just that
10:51<@planetmaker>but it doesn't mean that the client will be updated if he disagrees. It will simply be kicked
10:51<argoneus>ahh, so it's comparing a checksum
10:52<blathijs>argoneus: Well, it's really the random number generator state, but it's essentially a checksum, yes
10:52<argoneus>but this doesn't work with games that re-sync, does it?
10:52<argoneus>since you can't reverse figure out which part is wrong from a single number
10:52<argoneus>and have to resync everything
10:53<@planetmaker>OpenTTD does not sync. Both client and server do the *exact same thing*. they just occasionally compare what they have
10:53<blathijs>argoneus: Yeah, other games use other techniques
10:53<argoneus>well, it makes sense in openttd
10:54<argoneus>it doesn't matter if you get desynced which is rare in this game anyway since oyu just rejoin
10:54<frosch123>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/2e62a1bc0733/docs/desync.txt#l21 <- some blabla on the topic
10:54<argoneus>I guess this wouldn't really work for fighting games though
10:54<@peter1138>any desync in ottd is a bug
10:54<argoneus>but I don't understand
10:54<@Rubidium>argoneus: for a FPS there is a really limited game state; a few players with X, Y, Z and maybe some rotations and some flying objects. For OpenTTD you got thousands and thousands of vehicles moving around, all with their own "mind"
10:54<argoneus>if I temporarily unplug my internet, shouldn't I desync? I don't receive commands from the server in time
10:55<blathijs>argoneus: TCP just resends the missing packets when you plug back in
10:55<argoneus>but my game was paused meanwhile, while the server was still going, no?
10:55<argoneus>so if I start the commands later, I will be delayed
10:55<argoneus>(well obviously I won't, but why?"
10:55<blathijs>argoneus: All commands include a timestamp
10:55<argoneus>ahh
10:55<@Rubidium>argoneus: you won't desync because of that because you are not progressing in the game while not getting the 'okay, progress to moment X'
10:55<blathijs>Or rather, a tick number
10:55<@peter1138>the connection broke, that's a broken connection, not a desync
10:56<argoneus>so my game stealthily simulates the missing link?
10:56<argoneus>I haven't really ever dropped, so I am not sure if my trains suddenly go hyper speed to catch up
10:56<@Rubidium>also, lagging behind is not desyncing
10:56<blathijs>argoneus: I think it might just assume nothing happens for a while, and then once it gets the missing info, it just updates the state as if things happened in the past?
10:57<argoneus>so it just quickly simulates the game from that point forwards
10:57<argoneus>until the present
10:57<blathijs>Hm, I'm actually not sure about this part. I don't think the game simulation can back up
10:57<@Rubidium>it's simple
10:57<blathijs>so that means the server needs to send updates all the time, even when nothing happens
10:57<@Rubidium>the server sends a message every X amount of time: you may progress to tick X
10:58<blathijs>so clients now it's safe to simulate a few more ticks
10:58<blathijs>right
10:58<@Rubidium>then the client will progress to that tick
10:58<V453000>why did I read dick
10:58<argoneus>so if my connection lags, my game will go more quickly for a while?
10:58<argoneus>until I am at the correct tick
10:58<@Rubidium>yes
10:59<@Rubidium>the server will always send the commands that need to happen before it sends that you may progress to tick X; it will actually say all those commands need to be executed at tick X. The server itself will also only execute the command at tick X
10:59<argoneus>ah
11:00<@Rubidium>and given TCP, the "progress to tick X" will always be received by OpenTTD *after* the commands
11:00<argoneus>does TCP guarantee order sent - order received?
11:00<@Rubidium>yes
11:00<argoneus>I still can't grasp how some games get away with UDP
11:01<argoneus>though when you have 100 tick servers, it doesn't matter if the client drops one or two packets, you can just re-sync
11:01<@Rubidium>well... it does guarantee: order application sent == order application receives (what happens in between is essentially a black box where anything might happen)
11:01<blathijs>argoneus: Probably by also sending over the game state frequently
11:01<@Rubidium>argoneus: the game state of those games is probably so small that is can fit within a single packet
11:02<@Rubidium>so it will just sent new game states
11:02<argoneus>I wonder how games like left 4 dead sync
11:02<@Rubidium>game state missed? Too bad, just wait for the next one
11:02<argoneus>must be robust netcoding
11:02<@Rubidium>game state received out of order? Oh, I already got a newer state... ignore that old one
11:03<@peter1138>argoneus, sniff the packets and find out
11:03<@peter1138>in that sort of game, it only matters that things are roughly in the right place at the right time.
11:03<@peter1138>if you estimate and predict you get it right most of the time
11:04<argoneus>I guess the scope of that is beyond an irc channel explanation
11:04<argoneus>:D
11:04<@peter1138>in a strategy game like ottd every single tiny detail must be 100% exactly the same, but because the server is effectively a master clock, well, they are the same.
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11:16<Eddi|zuHause><argoneus> I guess this wouldn't really work for fighting games though <-- yes, because the latency between the client telling the server "i want to do X" and the server telling the client "yes, you can do X" will quickly kill you.
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>instead, the client says "ok, the server will *probably* allow me to do X"
11:17<argoneus>so prediction means the client sends the command and does it because it thinks it's fine?
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:18<argoneus>ohh
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>and the other part of prediction is the server guessing "when the client recieves my answer, he will probably be around here"
11:20<argoneus>oh
11:20<argoneus>so the server has to compensate for latency too?
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:20<@peter1138>I remember original net-quake didn't do prediction. It was a horrible lag-fest.
11:21<@peter1138>We were also using 33k modems in those days of course.
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11:53<SHOTbyGUN>what is the purpose of the aircraft range in Aviators Aircraft Set? (mean time between failures or it gets lost or what) ?
11:54<Pikka>the purpose is to be a BAD FEATURE
11:54<Pikka>if you're asking how it works, you can't give planes orders to fly further than their maximum range
11:57<SHOTbyGUN>perfect answer thanks
11:58<@planetmaker>teheh.
12:01<Pinkbeast>SHOTbyGUN: Provides an extra means of differentiating vehicles, which aircraft are particularly bad at.
12:02<Pikka>av9.8 solved that problem better, I think. :)
12:05<Pinkbeast>I'd not say no to steam locomotives getting a water-based range (and addition of troughs, etc) but then I'm odd
12:07<SHOTbyGUN>Pikka what is av9.8 ? I see it on the BaNaNas but no website / documentation, nothing
12:07<Pikka>it's an aircraft set
12:07<Pikka>it's basically the aircraft for pineapple aircraft, which I'll be doing in 32bpp/ez
12:08<Pikka>but just with av8 graphics as placeholders for now
12:08<Pikka>it has far fewer aircraft than av8, and they're fictional aircraft
12:08<Pikka>so it's probably not for everyone. but for gameplay, it's good. :)
12:09<Pikka>and it doesn't have limited aircraft ranges. :)
12:09<SHOTbyGUN>ok :o
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12:18<Pikka>as far as openttd goes, there's no difference between "no" and "should be zero" in this list -> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains , right?
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes. "should be 0" means "might be implemented at some point"
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>meaning "legacy newgrfs will break/show unwanted effects if non-zero"
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12:41<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: http://rbijker.net/openttd/with_sine.png vs http://rbijker.net/openttd/without_sine.png (both with same seed and settings)
12:41<@Rubidium>only due to the different landscape the towns will be in a different location
12:43<@Rubidium>to me the "with sine" gives more height to me map
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12:44<@Rubidium>but more rugged edges and less flat planes can be seen without the sine
12:45<@Rubidium>although variety distribution is messing about with sines and such too
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12:51<Eddi|zuHause>difficult to see the differences
12:53<@peter1138>turn off VD. nobody wants VD.
12:57*peter1138 ponders deleting his full gopher archive.
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12:59<@Rubidium>you still use port 70?
13:01<argoneus>wait
13:01<argoneus>is variety distribution bad?
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>no
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>just terrible
13:02<argoneus>isn't bad a subset of terrible
13:02<argoneus>er, the other way around
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>when you don't use square maps
13:03<@Rubidium>why?
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>it squishes everything
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>so you get long stretched mountains along the longer side
13:04<@Rubidium>ah
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>and no mountains that cross along the shorter side
13:05<argoneus>someone should just make a button
13:05<argoneus>"generate good, interesting map"
13:05<Sylf>variety distribution just give patches of flat land, and some people think it makes the map too flat.
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13:06<Sylf>but other people love to have those patches of flat lands
13:06<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: might that be what the MHL patch for that function is about?
13:06<@peter1138>VD was only tested with mostly square maps.
13:06<V453000>copypaste everything to flat terrain
13:06<V453000>great game, much creativity
13:06<@peter1138>bah, where's my perlin patches
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: no idea
13:07<@Rubidium>nah, it does totally remove variety
13:08<FLHerne>I tried using my diamond-square implementation to generate heightmaps with different parameters, but it doesn't really work for OTTD :-(
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: proper "alpinist" may need cliffs and stuff, otherwise most terrain effects get squashed by the "make the mountain smooth enough for 1 heightlevel change per tile" function
13:09<FLHerne>Good for interesting continent/coastline shapes, but too uniform to do nice mountains
13:09<argoneus>importing dwarf fortress maps into openttd when
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: which may be what the "i can't get mountains up to 255" be about
13:11<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: not really; MHL limits the max height based on MapLogX and MapLogY and some other things
13:11<@peter1138>Hmm, found it.
13:11<@peter1138>in "trunk2" obviously
13:12<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pye3rjafc
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: well, "trunk_clean" is obviously a big lie :p
13:13<argoneus>when the map reaches end year, it restarts the same map or generates a new one?
13:18<Jiinxs>In theory, when I select that they are gonna replace a vehicle they should drive to a depot and get replace, even is the car is not "old"?
13:19<argoneus>Jiinxs: I think at the end of their service interval
13:19<argoneus>they go replace
13:19<Jiinxs>okey
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 4096/48
13:20<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 85.3333333333
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't sound quite right
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>am i misunderstanding stuff?
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13:27<Wolf01>hello o/
13:36<__ln__>salve Wolf01, come sta?
13:37<Wolf01>tired, and you?
13:37<__ln__>non c'è male
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26944 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt spanish.txt) (2014-10-01 17:45:44 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>czech - 74 changes by djst
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
13:48<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: http://rbijker.net/openttd/more_square_variety.diff <- that seems to help for me; not in all cases, e.g. 64x4096 with low variety just gets variety over the long edge, not the short one at all
13:49<@Rubidium>but anything with less than 4 orders and some variety should get fairly square blocks
13:50<@Rubidium>also fixes an issue where the first 1.5 block worth of tiles were seen as 1 block (at the northern border)
13:52<@peter1138>bin it :p
13:59<__ln__>https://twitter.com/mikko/status/517358472715710465/photo/1
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14:04<frosch123>__ln__: ms is actually being taken over by apple, and it will be called windows X
14:10<@Rubidium>that reason is just bollocks
14:10<argoneus>is it possible to create my own currency in ttd?
14:10<argoneus>I want to buy trains with bitcoins
14:10<@Rubidium>because 10 is still less than 95, 98 and 2000
14:11<frosch123>Rubidium: average guy may still be confused about talking about win9 and win9x
14:11<frosch123>though, who talks about win9x? :p
14:12<frosch123>so, let's just hope we do not get any bug reports, that the 9x ottd version does not run on 9
14:17<Supercheese>argoneus: Currency option -> Custom
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14:33<fjb>Why using a number at all? Why not using a bright name again like Windows Vista, e.g. Windows Sun.
14:34<frosch123>they are just on a mission to spread the knowledge about nonal numbers
14:36<fjb>Ok, I see. Microsoft educates the world.
14:37<andythenorth>o/
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14:39<NGC3982>Oh hai.
14:40<NGC3982>1.4.3 is as with the usual updates nice and tidy.
14:43<fjb>Moin NGC3982
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15:19<__ln__>@calc 0/0
15:19<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Error: float division
15:20<__ln__>DorpsGek: integer division you silly
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15:21<andythenorth>Pikka bob lo
15:22<Pikka>si
15:22<Pikka>sup?
15:22<andythenorth>sky
15:22<andythenorth>planes
15:23<andythenorth>managed to offload UKRS2?
15:23<Pikka>apparently
15:23<Pikka>I assume it will become the base of the BRSet episode 59
15:24<Pikka>although since Leanden "knows next to nothing about coding" I won't hold my breath
15:25<andythenorth>maybe can learn
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>excuse me if i don't have a lot of hope that Leanden will produce anything constructive
15:25<andythenorth>I know next to nothing about coding either
15:25<Pikka>well
15:25<Pikka>there's quite a lot of space next to nothing
15:25-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:25<andythenorth>is true fact
15:25<Pikka>I mean
15:25<Pikka>a wide specturm
15:26<Pikka>and spectrum
15:26<andythenorth>will I pixels?
15:26<andythenorth>been awake since 3am
15:26<Pikka>of next-to-nothingness
15:26<Pikka>I don't know, will you?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i don't know if you followed anything else Leanden has ever started... :p
15:27<Pikka>I'm aware that his diplomatic skills when dealing with collaborators are somewhat OzTransesque, Eddi|zuHause
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>the difference is that OzTrans actually produced somewhat presentable NewGRFs
15:28<Pikka>well
15:28<Pikka>like I said, I won't hold my breath
15:28-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
15:28<Pikka>meanwhile, I'll plod on with this NARS recode...
15:29<andythenorth>\o/
15:29<andythenorth>“at last, a NARS to be proud of"
15:29*andythenorth la la la
15:32<Pikka>also, as far as the control cars and reversing consists go
15:32<Pikka>I suppose it's not that bad a feature
15:32<Pikka>but there's a significant degree to which I can't be bothered
15:36<andythenorth>+1
15:37<andythenorth>engine flipping?
15:38<Pikka>only for switchers
15:38<andythenorth>what about player flip?
15:38<Pikka>yes, player flipping
15:39<andythenorth>IH will probably make you build covered wagons (F units) in groups of 3 or 4
15:39<andythenorth>btw
15:39<andythenorth>just saying
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15:39<andythenorth>NARS players would hate that :)
15:40<Pikka>the way I've done it is that I have an A if it's at the front of a set facing forwards, or the back of a set facing backwards, and a B otherwise. But I suppose you can't do player-flipping with your crazy 3-part vehicles. :)
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15:51<andythenorth>nope :)
15:51<andythenorth>also who’s ever going to build a single covered wagon?
15:52<andythenorth>assuming there’s also switcher available
15:52<Pikka>true
15:52<andythenorth>but someone would complain :)
15:52<Pikka>for the original incarnation of 10cc, I was going to build Fs as A+B
15:52<frosch123>night
15:52<andythenorth>bye FreeZeee
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15:52<andythenorth>balls
15:53<andythenorth>wrong auto-complete :P
15:53<Pikka>him too
15:53<Pikka>http://i.imgur.com/LtJxYVQ.png half the locos done, half to go
15:53<Pikka>+ the wogans
15:53<andythenorth>how lovely
15:53<andythenorth>do like a bit of NARS
15:53<Pikka>if you like that sort of thing
15:53<Pikka>which apparently you do
15:53<andythenorth>apparently
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>your autocomplete doesn't try the last person to speak first?
15:53<andythenorth>nearly as good as canset :)
15:54<Pikka>something about damned by faint praise :P
15:54<andythenorth>nobody knows when I”m serious :(
15:54*andythenorth wonders why
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>you were ever serious?
15:55<Pikka>maybe they do, you just don't know when /they're/ serious.
15:55<andythenorth>I don’t even know they’re real tbh
15:55<andythenorth>hmm
15:55<andythenorth>can haz drawing a curtain flat thing
15:55<Pikka>How Can Our Trains Be Real If Our Pixels Aren't Real
15:55<andythenorth>spose I could try that
15:56<andythenorth>Deep Philosophy
15:56<Pikka>the capitals make it deeper
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>if you have trouble deciding what's real and what not, don't try an oculus rift :p
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>Capitals make Things easier if you capitalize Nouns
15:58<V453000>NO :D
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>"no" is not a noun :p
16:03<andythenorth>still no crocs in BNE?
16:03<Pikka>only on the feet of the unfashionable
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>"branch if not equal"?
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16:08<andythenorth>need to draw one of these businesses https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/8741628785/
16:08<Pikka>so what's stopping you?
16:08<andythenorth>inertia
16:09<andythenorth>I have one of these to build it from https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/entry/src/graphics/box_car_brit_gen_3_template.png
16:09<andythenorth>so realisms
16:10<andythenorth>is it bedtimes?
16:10<Pikka>mebe
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>not even close
16:10<Pikka>or it might be coffeetimes
16:10<andythenorth>I have reach Peak Coffee
16:10<andythenorth>it stops working
16:14<Pikka>hmm
16:14<Pikka>whell
16:14<Pikka>whell?
16:14<Pikka>well
16:14<Pikka>I'm going to coffee on regardless
16:14<andythenorth>I admire your resolve
16:14<Pikka>is it showing?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>i have no use for coffee...
16:15<Pikka>must be the heat
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16:16<andythenorth>probably the humidity
16:16<andythenorth>hmm
16:17<andythenorth>3 new trucks, 2 hoverzeppelins, and a tanker for carrying wine to sea
16:17<andythenorth>must be christmas soon
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16:30<argoneus>oi
16:30<argoneus>there's openttd for android?
16:31<FLHerne>argoneus: Pelya's unofficial port
16:31<argoneus>I guess I'd need a big tablet for that though
16:31<argoneus>and wirhout hotkeys it might be painful
16:32<Pikka>hooray for hoverzellepins and wine tankers
16:34<andythenorth>unless christmas gets cancelled
16:35<andythenorth>so umm
16:35<andythenorth>upgrading vehicle stats, still BAD?
16:35<Pikka>I think so
16:36<Pikka>the bigger the upgrade, the WORSE. and if it's not a big upgrade, it's pointless.
16:36<Pikka>I can't think of any reason you'd want to do it besides realisms.
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16:39<andythenorth>lazy
16:39<argoneus>what the hell
16:39<argoneus>why does reddit have its own client
16:39<andythenorth>build a train once, upgrades every 25 years when it goes to depot
16:39<argoneus>pff
16:39<andythenorth>‘refurb'
16:40<andythenorth>magic train
16:47<Sylf>reddit uses some patches like day length mod
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16:49<argoneus>oh
16:49<argoneus>doesn't day length change a lot?
16:49<argoneus>even things like maintenance / pay
16:52<FLHerne>argoneus: Reddit client with the settings they use is nigh-impossible. But fun :P
16:52<FLHerne>argoneus: #/r/openttd
16:52<FLHerne>Is the IRC channel
16:52<argoneus>nigh impossible?
16:53<Wolf01>'night all
16:54-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:54<@peter1138>Heh, in 20 years of using IRC, I've never seen a / in a channel name.
16:56<argoneus>^
16:56<argoneus>FLHerne: why is it hard? :<
16:57<FLHerne>argoneus: Insane costs, tiny payments, slow production increases
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>certainly the link parser doesn't think it's valid
16:58<argoneus>oh
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16:58<FLHerne>peter1138: Seems to be a reddit thing - snoonet has quite a few channels named like that
16:59<FLHerne>^ I'm sure it did, but now I can't find any :P
17:04<argoneus>ugh
17:04<argoneus>I can't find a server I would like
17:04<argoneus>they all have red flags for me
17:05<FLHerne>argoneus: Reddit 3 is nice, or 1 is they have grfs I hate :P
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17:05<argoneus>FLHerne: 1 is vanilla, 3 has nopeople
17:06<FLHerne>argoneus: What date is S3? It's usually fairly busy except in the 2100s
17:06<argoneus>1986
17:06<argoneus>one person online
17:06<FLHerne>That seems strange
17:07<andythenorth>also bed time
17:07<andythenorth>bye
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17:07<argoneus>b-... ok
17:10<argoneus>I joined a server to see some interesting designs I could learn from
17:10<argoneus>http://puu.sh/bVMMe/1dd3a08680.png this is certainly interesting
17:11<FLHerne>argoneus: Please don't copy the vastly-redundant wrong-side path signals, those are hideous
17:11<argoneus>FLHerne: ikr
17:12<argoneus>lol
17:12<argoneus>his maintenance is 10 mil pounds per year for signals only
17:13<argoneus>1 mil for railways
17:13<FLHerne>AAAAA
17:13<argoneus>why do these servers have such huge maps
17:13<argoneus>I just want to compete with people
17:13<argoneus>and fill the entire map with railroads
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17:19<argoneus>FLHerne: do people play S3 then?
17:20<FLHerne>argoneus: I do, when I have a couple of contiguous hours to spare and especially if it's UK grfs
17:20<argoneus>FLHerne: the GRFs change?
17:20<FLHerne>argoneus: It can be quite busy at times
17:21<argoneus>how busy is busy?
17:21<argoneus>4+ people?
17:22<FLHerne>argoneus: Several weekends there've been 8 or so people active, 3-6 is more usual
17:23<argoneus>oh nice
17:23<argoneus>is this in EU or US times usually?
17:23<argoneus>also, why do people like NARS / UKRS?
17:23<argoneus>the different length trains are killing me
17:23<argoneus>it's tedious as fuck to replace trains, esp. if you need to add engines
17:24<@peter1138>UKRS2 is frikkin awesome
17:24<@peter1138>and replacing trains is hardly the main aim of the game
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17:24<@peter1138>FLHerne, ew, station spread is way too high :S
17:25<FLHerne>argoneus: That's a 'lack of template-replacement' problem, not a newgrf one :P
17:25<argoneus>it irks me
17:26<FLHerne>There was a patch for that that was really nice to use, but buggy as hell :-(
17:26<argoneus>NUTS best set ever
17:26<FLHerne>argoneus: No, NUTS is tedious and ugly :P
17:26<@peter1138>also, yuck at opengfx+ landscape :S
17:26<argoneus>NUTS is awesome
17:26<argoneus>it has clear cut train types
17:26<argoneus>and sizes
17:26<FLHerne>peter1138: Eh? I really like that
17:26<argoneus>how is NUTS tedious
17:27<argoneus>it's more intuitive than vanilla
17:27<@peter1138>I prefer TTD graphics, so it's ... ugly :P
17:27<FLHerne>argoneus: That's exactly the problem. There's always a defined vehicle for each role, and each role has a sequence of equivalent but steadily-improving models
17:28<argoneus>yes
17:28<argoneus>that's more fun than having different length trains
17:28<argoneus>lets you think on a higher level
17:28<@peter1138>That's more fun *for you* than...
17:28<argoneus>fun is never objective
17:28<FLHerne>argoneus: So IME NUTS turns into 'buy vehicle x1 for service type x', then 'replace x1 vehicles with x2 vehicles', 'replace x2 vehicles with x3 ones' and so on
17:29<@peter1138>I usually just run my vehicles until they can no longer go, meanwhile buying newer models as and when.
17:30<FLHerne>argoneus: There's no real need to care about slopes, because NUTS vehicles have insane TE, no real decisions to be made about which locos should replace what where - it all just feels very formulaic to me
17:30<argoneus>FLHerne: I wish the UKRS trains at least had easy to see length
17:30<argoneus>but some look like 1.4 tile, some 1.7
17:31<argoneus>how do I even tell how long they are
17:31<FLHerne>Vehicles are measured in 16ths of a tile
17:31<FLHerne>The default ones are all 8/16ths long
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17:34<argoneus>and the UKRS are from like 5 to like 14?
17:36<FLHerne>argoneus: Sounds about right. The Garratt is pretty long, early freight wagons are tiny
17:38<@peter1138>Its variety distribution for train length :p
17:39<argoneus>FLHerne: server 3 looks good
17:39<argoneus>but the map is way too big
17:39<argoneus>it's mostly empty
17:40<FLHerne>argoneus: MP maps always seem to be. No-one likes competing :-(
17:40<argoneus>I just want to play and feel there are other people
17:40<argoneus>:<
17:41<FLHerne>argoneus: You could just play and build around other people anyway
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17:41<argoneus>that's not competing
17:41<argoneus>that's screwing myself over
17:43<@peter1138>Usually when you compete someone says you're "stealing their goods"
17:43<@peter1138>Also, yellow places way too many signals.
17:43<argoneus>I just think it would be interesting
17:43<argoneus>10 people in a 512x512 map
17:43<@peter1138>2048x1024
17:44<@peter1138>yeah, that's kinda too big :S
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17:44<argoneus>2048x1024 where?
17:44<@peter1138>S3
17:44<argoneus>ah
17:44<argoneus>yeah
17:44<argoneus>as I said
17:44<argoneus>most servers have what I want
17:44<@peter1138>And station spread is way too high
17:44<argoneus>but it's either 1, no people 2, bad newgrf 3, map too big
17:45<argoneus>yeah
17:45<argoneus>people just place a train station in big city
17:45<argoneus>and 1 tile stations all around the city
17:45<argoneus>SKILL
17:45<@peter1138>Nah, this guy places a massive station outside 2 towns
17:46<@peter1138>Then spreads it to cover each, but doesn't understand how spread works, so places lots of small tiles everywhere, instead of just 2 corners :P
17:46<argoneus>I want a server with openttdcoop level saturation
17:46<argoneus>but every one for himself
17:46<argoneus>:(
17:47<argoneus>why is vanilla the most popular server
17:47<argoneus>vanilla has so many issues
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17:48<@peter1138>haha, i'm gonna run out of cash
17:48<argoneus>what are you doing?
17:49<@peter1138>Yup, out of cash.
17:50<argoneus>h-how
17:50<@peter1138>1 short line...
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17:51<argoneus>does anyone have experience with BTPRo?
17:51<argoneus>and their servers
17:51<SpComb>making the mistake of actually playing openttd again?
17:51<argoneus>I've been playing for a while
17:53<Pikka>what a silly game
17:58<MTsPony>Lol pikka
18:10-!-DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:13<@peter1138>Lol pizza
18:14<@peter1138>Why do people capitalize only the first letter in 'lol' as if it's a word.
18:14<@peter1138>Mind you there probably are people just going around saying 'lol' instead of laughing these days.
18:18<MTsPony>Random fluctuation of the Shift button.
18:19<@peter1138>I Suppose It Could Be Worse, Like This. That Would Drive Me Up The Wall.
18:19<MTsPony>That Looks So Lovely Peter One One Three Eight.
18:21<@peter1138>That's terrible.
18:26<Pikka>I certainly go around saying lol as if it's a word
18:26<Pikka>Capitalising Every Word Makes Your Philosophy Seem So Profound
18:27<Pikka>Aren't You Glad Twitter Wasn't Around When You Were 16, Or However Old Jaden Smith Is These Days?
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19:05<Eddi|zuHause>and who cares about jaden smith?
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21:33<MTsPony>mhh this is odd, im saving a scenario as a heightmap, then i reload it into openttd and it deviates slightly
21:33<MTsPony>i used the same size
21:36-!-glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye]
21:37<MTsPony>actually nvm, i know whats going on
21:41<SHOTbyGUN>what are the options to reduce amount of passengers generated ? Googling only reveals stuff about "patching", so no simple mod for adjusting it ?
21:43<MTsPony>use townsets with small buildings? :D
21:44<SHOTbyGUN>there is lot of simple, half this quadruple that, but not for passengers :(
21:46<MTsPony>why would you want that? you can always use the grf to reduce passenger payment
21:46<MTsPony>if you think that its too profitable
21:47<SHOTbyGUN>yeah I already have half profit from passengers, but still needing 40 busses for city feels dumb
21:48<MTsPony>why? seems realistic?
21:48<SHOTbyGUN>it does not feel realistic to me :F
21:48<MTsPony>use a grf set with busses that have highest capacity?
21:51<SHOTbyGUN>MTsPony http://i.imgur.com/0hVbYvG.png
21:52<SHOTbyGUN>even if I had bigger busses, I would need 6+ passenger ships to make outside connection
21:54<MTsPony>i know the right solution for ya, run a build with daylength patch
21:54<MTsPony>slow down time/passenger production, and same vehicle speed.
21:54<SHOTbyGUN>oh, nice :o
21:55<MTsPony>reddit has a build for that you can use :) or play on our servers instead :p
21:55<MTsPony>afk
21:55<SHOTbyGUN>I am just testing out Server #2
21:55<SHOTbyGUN>no BigGUI in reddit client :(
21:56<MTsPony>is that a grf?
21:57<SHOTbyGUN>ya
21:58<MTsPony>openttd can use static grfs too, read up on how to use it. not all grfs work as static though.
21:58<SHOTbyGUN>oh :o
21:59<MTsPony>so you could potentially load your own grfs even when connecting to multiplayer server, but again its usually limited to grwphic replacement grfs, so youd have to try it out
22:00<SHOTbyGUN>k, thx, nowhere is said what reddit client is... is it basically just collection of patches and grf:s ?
22:01<MTsPony>its a patched game (openttd.exe)
22:01<MTsPony>grfs are not related to it though
22:11<Supercheese>Is there some further information on what sort of patches have been applied to the Reddit client, other than the raw .diff included in the bundle?
22:15<SHOTbyGUN>I tried to find out, but I think they dont want us to know :O
22:16<MTsPony>www.reddit.com/r/openttd/wiki/server5
22:16<MTsPony>currently its only stated there xD
22:16<Supercheese>Aah, patches active, there it is
22:16<SHOTbyGUN>damn, I was true fool when I tried to look under the reddit client section "duh!"
22:16<MTsPony>yeah :/
22:17<MTsPony>that stuff actually belongs on the page where the client can be downloaded. ill plan a fix when im not too busy :p
22:17<SHOTbyGUN>that'd be great
22:19<MTsPony>done
22:19<MTsPony>on the bottom
22:20<Supercheese>Neat, Server 2 uses one of my grfs :)
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22:26<SHOTbyGUN>why Grocer's store shop doesnt want my alcohol :( ?
22:30<Supercheese>perhaps you spelled Whisky/Whiskey with or without an e to their disliking
22:30<Supercheese>;)
22:36<SHOTbyGUN>oh it was bug in station, remade it and now it accepts it :)
22:36<SHOTbyGUN>first time I saw a bug :)
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---Logclosed Thu Oct 02 00:00:35 2014