| --- | Log | opened Thu Oct 02 00:00:35 2014 |
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| 00:28 | <SHOTbyGUN> | is Enonomy: inflation just visual aspect, does it really affect gameplay? |
| 00:29 | <Supercheese> | it definitely does |
| 00:29 | <Supercheese> | Inflation will make it harder and harder to be profitable as the years tick by |
| 00:31 | <SHOTbyGUN> | if inflation increases all prices and also income, is it just +-0 ? |
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| 00:56 | <SHOTbyGUN> | by default airport costs 50 000 but maitenance is 400 000 ... ? |
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| 00:56 | <SHOTbyGUN> | I suppose I have to increase airport building cost to 1 000 000 somehow, dunno how |
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| 01:07 | <SHOTbyGUN> | or rather I'd like large airport to to be 400 000 initially and 400 000 annually |
| 01:08 | <Supercheese> | Inflation makes it such that costs rise faster than profits |
| 01:08 | <Supercheese> | it says so in the helptext |
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| 01:18 | <SHOTbyGUN> | oh thx |
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| 01:41 | <SHOTbyGUN> | <MTsPony> thx this day time reduction works wonders :) ... finally it is reasonable to get passengers from another cities, when there is not enough passengers in the vincinity of the airport :P |
| 01:46 | <Supercheese> | Daylength is one of those highly desirable, easily implemented but with a few problems, very tough to implement without any problems |
| 01:46 | <Supercheese> | desirable features* |
| 01:48 | <SHOTbyGUN> | Daylength decreases income too right :o ? |
| 01:49 | <Supercheese> | That depends, there are different implementations of daylength |
| 01:49 | <SHOTbyGUN> | oh :F |
| 01:49 | <SHOTbyGUN> | I am using the reddit client |
| 01:49 | <Supercheese> | generally, I think it will increase income, because now your vehicles can make more trips in the same date-interval |
| 01:49 | <Supercheese> | since the dates progress more slowly |
| 01:49 | <Supercheese> | but it gets rather complicated |
| 01:49 | <SHOTbyGUN> | yeah, making vehicle maitenance (less costly) |
| 01:50 | <SHOTbyGUN> | seems like they never need to go to depot haha |
| 01:50 | <Supercheese> | does Reddit play with breakdowns on? :\ |
| 01:50 | * | Supercheese cannot stand breakdowns |
| 01:50 | <SHOTbyGUN> | oh, well if it is not on, that'd explain why no depot :F |
| 01:51 | <Supercheese> | Indeed |
| 01:51 | <SHOTbyGUN> | oh finally a breakdown on aircraft |
| 01:52 | <SHOTbyGUN> | servicing interval 100 days ... times 5 Day length XD |
| 01:53 | <SHOTbyGUN> | I am trying to make good configuration to make challenging game :P and I think I am getting there |
| 01:53 | <SHOTbyGUN> | reddit servers didint have cargo distribution on so I dont want to play there :( |
| 01:55 | * | Supercheese doesn't use cargodist |
| 01:55 | <Supercheese> | might try out Reddit then |
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| 02:01 | <Supercheese> | Anyone know what the ISO langcode for Latin is? Maybe la_LA? |
| 02:02 | <SHOTbyGUN> | dunno, other than ISO-8859-1 |
| 02:03 | <SHOTbyGUN> | but I think internet agrees that its UTF-8 or die |
| 02:03 | <Supercheese> | err |
| 02:03 | <Supercheese> | I meant Latin language |
| 02:03 | <Supercheese> | Lingua Latina |
| 02:04 | <Supercheese> | like en_US for US English |
| 02:04 | <SHOTbyGUN> | oh D |
| 02:04 | <SHOTbyGUN> | no idea |
| 02:05 | <Supercheese> | oh hmm |
| 02:06 | <Supercheese> | I guess it needn't have a second -part |
| 02:06 | <SHOTbyGUN> | im sure you can just google em |
| 02:06 | <Supercheese> | so just la |
| 02:08 | <Supercheese> | although every lang in OTTD does have a second portion |
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| 02:35 | <NGC3982> | Morning. |
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| 02:41 | <SHOTbyGUN> | Day Length Factor worked well to reduce passenger spawning, but it also slowed my economy down :( looks like there is no production factor :( |
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| 03:06 | <SHOTbyGUN> | reducing passenger spawning is impossible :'( |
| 03:07 | <SHOTbyGUN> | someone plz fix |
| 03:07 | <@planetmaker> | use a NewGRF with less passengers / inhabitants per house |
| 03:07 | <Supercheese> | There's a NewGRF for That™ |
| 03:07 | <Supercheese> | dangit ninjaed |
| 03:07 | <@planetmaker> | thus: your problem is already fixed |
| 03:07 | <@planetmaker> | :) Moin Supercheese |
| 03:08 | <SHOTbyGUN> | I have googled 3 days now |
| 03:08 | <SHOTbyGUN> | link please? |
| 03:08 | <Supercheese> | planetmaker: you ninja, you :P |
| 03:08 | <@planetmaker> | breakfast-ninja ;) |
| 03:09 | <@planetmaker> | maybe early houses. ttrs is rather the anti-thesis of that |
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| 03:12 | <SHOTbyGUN> | that mod only reduces passenger generation if year is less than 1929 |
| 03:12 | <Supercheese> | there are others, or at least should be |
| 03:13 | <Supercheese> | TaI by Pikka should have much lower pax |
| 03:13 | <Supercheese> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=42562#p776414 |
| 03:13 | <@planetmaker> | it has an ugly influence on town growth ;) |
| 03:13 | <Supercheese> | well, yes |
| 03:14 | <Supercheese> | I find the enormous amounts of pax merely a challenge to be embraced rather than avoided |
| 03:14 | <Supercheese> | in TTRS, I mean |
| 03:22 | <SHOTbyGUN> | Supercheese what is TTRS ? |
| 03:22 | <Supercheese> | Total Town Replacement Set |
| 03:22 | <Supercheese> | popular Town newgrf |
| 03:23 | <SHOTbyGUN> | oh, gotta test that out |
| 03:23 | <SHOTbyGUN> | if it helps out with my problem =) |
| 03:23 | <Supercheese> | hahaha no |
| 03:23 | <Supercheese> | it will overload you with more passengers |
| 03:24 | <V453000> | XD |
| 03:24 | <SHOTbyGUN> | oh :F |
| 03:25 | <SHOTbyGUN> | so if I have 1000 population city with 1200 passengers on the stations, and 40+ busses trying to keep the stations not glogging |
| 03:25 | <SHOTbyGUN> | all roads are filled with busses |
| 03:25 | <Supercheese> | solution: find a more efficient transport method |
| 03:25 | <SHOTbyGUN> | you telling me this is the way to get more passengers :O ? |
| 03:25 | <Supercheese> | trams, trains |
| 03:25 | <Supercheese> | better buses |
| 03:25 | <V453000> | just provide better service :) |
| 03:25 | <Supercheese> | ^ that |
| 03:25 | <andythenorth> | really? |
| 03:25 | <andythenorth> | afaict over-supply of pax isn’t solvable |
| 03:25 | <V453000> | http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2010/06/13/advanced-building-revue-05-sbahns-and-city-networks/ |
| 03:26 | <andythenorth> | so many people assume this is some kind of designed in gameplay challenge :) |
| 03:26 | <andythenorth> | when it’s totally accidental |
| 03:26 | <Supercheese> | Buses, much like in real life oddly enough, are not suitable for enormous amounts of passengers |
| 03:26 | <andythenorth> | bulldoze canals into town |
| 03:26 | <andythenorth> | use ships |
| 03:26 | <Supercheese> | andythenorth: though it may be an accident it is nonetheless a nice challenge |
| 03:26 | <andythenorth> | ships have infinite capacity, subject to your CPU |
| 03:26 | <Supercheese> | Yep ships are the ultimate solution, infinite capacity |
| 03:27 | <andythenorth> | Venice Everywhere |
| 03:27 | <SHOTbyGUN> | yeah, but I was thinking about fixing the game, not exploiting it |
| 03:27 | <SHOTbyGUN> | lower pax generation 4x or 8x and I am very happy |
| 03:27 | <Supercheese> | Eh, potato/potato |
| 03:28 | <SHOTbyGUN> | currently you just make city -> train -> city = 1 million a year |
| 03:28 | <SHOTbyGUN> | game win |
| 03:28 | <andythenorth> | try TaI |
| 03:28 | <Supercheese> | was suggested |
| 03:28 | <SHOTbyGUN> | yeah I am going to do that now |
| 03:28 | <andythenorth> | all the other house grfs build huge buildings as the city grows |
| 03:28 | <andythenorth> | with high pax generation |
| 03:28 | <V453000> | which is why money doesnt matter at all SHOTbyGUN |
| 03:29 | <V453000> | it is just a number |
| 03:29 | <andythenorth> | there is a group of players who aim for city growth, rather than pax transport |
| 03:29 | <V453000> | the game complexity is in creating interesting train networks, you can get a lot of money in your first game if you fast forward, win |
| 03:29 | <andythenorth> | and some of the grfs head in the direction of huge populations, rather than 100% clearance |
| 03:30 | <V453000> | people who grow towns without servicing them properly are just dumb |
| 03:30 | <V453000> | but having high amount of pax doesnt mean growing is a bad thing |
| 03:30 | <V453000> | you just need better trains / more intense network to keep the town serviced |
| 03:30 | <V453000> | key idea stays |
| 03:31 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, pax supply directly correlates with inhabitants in area covered by station. Make a low population house set and you somewhat 'solve' that. If population count and passenger supply is considered a problem, that is |
| 03:31 | <V453000> | train newGRFs have so different pax capacities that it is basically impossible to "fix" |
| 03:31 | <andythenorth> | station walking :P |
| 03:31 | <andythenorth> | win |
| 03:31 | <V453000> | .. :) |
| 03:32 | <V453000> | for example, latest YETI ideas are that you get more workers per delivered pax/mail to the worker yard -> more industry production |
| 03:32 | <andythenorth> | IH metro gives you 400pax in a 1 tile train btw |
| 03:32 | <V453000> | meaning that growing a town is completely sensible, but you have to care for it and take the products from it somewhere |
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| 03:32 | <@planetmaker> | that's HUGE |
| 03:32 | <V453000> | 400 per tile is just retarded |
| 03:33 | <V453000> | even the highest capacity of slowest trains in NUTS is 240 per tile |
| 03:33 | <fonsinchen> | Supercheese: la_RM (latin/roman empire) ;) |
| 03:33 | <V453000> | DB set transrapid had 240 too I believe |
| 03:33 | <Supercheese> | I just have it la_LA at the moment |
| 03:33 | <V453000> | except it went 500 kmh with instant acceleration XD not broken. |
| 03:33 | <Supercheese> | la_VA for Vatican? |
| 03:34 | * | Supercheese does not know |
| 03:34 | <V453000> | I think NUTS is kind of okay vs. normal town sets like japanese buildings, but e.g. UKRS SUFFERS due to low capacities |
| 03:34 | <andythenorth> | V453000: 400 is for a reason :P |
| 03:34 | <fonsinchen> | maybe. The _LA part doesn't make any sense as there is no such country as 'LA' (or maybe it's Los Angeles). |
| 03:34 | <Supercheese> | yeah.... |
| 03:34 | <V453000> | andythenorth: which is? :D |
| 03:34 | <Supercheese> | la_US? |
| 03:34 | <fonsinchen> | Anyway, there are ISO codes without second part |
| 03:34 | * | Supercheese is American after all |
| 03:35 | <andythenorth> | V453000: so you can fit 400 pax in a tile train of course |
| 03:35 | <Supercheese> | I would just as soon keep it at la |
| 03:35 | <fonsinchen> | The second part is only needed for languages that are slightly different in different regions where they're spoken |
| 03:35 | <Supercheese> | but every other language in OTTD has both parts, so I was uncertain |
| 03:35 | <fonsinchen> | Then we probably don't use ISO codes |
| 03:35 | <Supercheese> | and there are different pronunciations around, but not so much spellings |
| 03:35 | <__ln__> | fonsinchen: we don't? |
| 03:36 | <fonsinchen> | Otherwise we shouldn't have a second part for things like, say, romanian |
| 03:36 | <V453000> | XD |
| 03:36 | <Supercheese> | the field in the .lang file is "##isocode en_US" |
| 03:36 | <V453000> | just wtf andy |
| 03:36 | <V453000> | but okay :D |
| 03:36 | <V453000> | how fast are the trains pulling such wagons andythenorth ? |
| 03:36 | <andythenorth> | 65mph, metro |
| 03:36 | <__ln__> | the country part of the locale identifier usually (though not maybe in OTTD) affects things such as date formatting, which are more related to country than the language. |
| 03:37 | <V453000> | well at least that |
| 03:37 | <V453000> | but still, 400 ... :) |
| 03:37 | <fonsinchen> | Yes, but if the language is only spoken in one country then that determines it already |
| 03:37 | <andythenorth> | why are the canadian grfs on bananas? |
| 03:37 | <andythenorth> | I thought they were being removed? |
| 03:38 | <V453000> | I guess they just dont show in openttd due to max version? |
| 03:39 | <fonsinchen> | I just remember the language stuff because at some point I tried to understand this: http://framework.zend.com/svn/framework/standard/trunk/library/Zend/Locale.php |
| 03:39 | <Supercheese> | Technically I think only the Vatican still has Latin as an official language |
| 03:39 | <V453000> | I do not believe anybody supports this cunt and is willing to remove things from bananas and break those newGRFs for players (again) |
| 03:40 | <Supercheese> | despite numerous national mottos/text on currencies being in Latin |
| 03:40 | <fonsinchen> | Mind that this is not complete, there are also codes with an "@<characterSet>" after them, for example for Japanese where they have the same language in different writings |
| 03:40 | <andythenorth> | he should just upload blank grfs |
| 03:40 | <V453000> | andythenorth: somebody probably didnt realize it is possible to download things manually :P |
| 03:40 | <andythenorth> | currently all can stuff is still available to download |
| 03:40 | <V453000> | haha |
| 03:41 | <V453000> | would be cute |
| 03:41 | <Supercheese> | Yeah the Canadian grfs have been subject to excessive amounts of drama |
| 03:41 | <andythenorth> | would be sensible for him to blank them |
| 03:41 | <Supercheese> | "sensible" |
| 03:41 | <V453000> | he will come back with his full mouth of bullshit sooner or later anyway |
| 03:43 | <__ln__> | even though i'm the one who introduced the isocode thing in to OTTD translations, i don't quite remember whether the country information is mandatory or not. |
| 03:44 | <Supercheese> | Well, judging purely by precedent, it seems mandatory |
| 03:44 | <Supercheese> | of course, "precedent be damned" is an option as well |
| 03:45 | <fonsinchen> | I have to leave now, but I can try to dig out the standard document tonight. I think I've read it at some point. |
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| 03:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <Supercheese> although every lang in OTTD does have a second portion <-- the second part denotes country-specific localisation |
| 03:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so you could have a difference between de_DE and de_CH |
| 03:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | even though it's technically the same language |
| 03:52 | <Supercheese> | aye... so what then for Latin? |
| 03:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ... which country has a significant amount of latin speakers? :p |
| 03:53 | <Supercheese> | well, as I said, only the Vatican it would seem |
| 03:53 | <Supercheese> | but only because their dearth of citizens |
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| 03:53 | <Supercheese> | so per capita the fluency is high ;) |
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| 03:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "the region subtag MAY be omitted, as when it adds no distinguishing value to the tag." |
| 04:00 | <Supercheese> | Well then. |
| 04:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so i guess "la" will do |
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| 04:19 | <fjb> | Moin. |
| 04:21 | <@planetmaker> | officially Vatican and Malta have latin as language |
| 04:23 | <@planetmaker> | or I read it wrongly and "Sovereign Military Order of Malta" is not identical to Malta itself |
| 04:23 | <@planetmaker> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin |
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| 04:23 | <@planetmaker> | seems I did |
| 04:24 | <@planetmaker> | so Vatican is bigger. It probably has more than 3 citizens :D |
| 04:24 | <V453000> | :d |
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| 04:47 | <argoneus> | I am still not exactly sure |
| 04:47 | <argoneus> | does this game have anything from the original TTD? like reverse engineered code etc |
| 04:47 | <argoneus> | or is it all brand new, just using similar graphics and same gameplay |
| 04:49 | <V453000> | /same graphics and similar gameplay? :D |
| 04:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the code was reverse engineered and then slowly replaced/improved over time |
| 04:51 | <argoneus> | almost identical graphics and almost identical gameplay ;p |
| 04:51 | <argoneus> | Eddi|zuHause: so basically the original devs looked how chris made the game, and then kinda rewrote that? |
| 04:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | somewhat. the original was written in assembler, and this project got started as a complete reimplementation in c |
| 04:52 | <argoneus> | and now it's C++ :D |
| 04:52 | <argoneus> | or wait, it's not |
| 04:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | occasionally |
| 04:52 | <argoneus> | it still blows my mind |
| 04:52 | <argoneus> | how he just sat down |
| 04:52 | <argoneus> | and made two groundbreaking games in asm |
| 04:53 | <argoneus> | and just carried on with his life |
| 04:53 | <argoneus> | (unless I missed something other than ttd and rct) |
| 04:53 | <argoneus> | I was happy to write a super simple calculator in asm, and it was 800 something lines |
| 04:53 | <argoneus> | and he makes a whole damn game |
| 04:54 | <argoneus> | and in an age when C was widely used already, too |
| 04:54 | <argoneus> | it's just really mind boggling |
| 04:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what is a "boggle" anyway? |
| 04:57 | <argoneus> | dunno, I just use it as a phrase |
| 04:57 | <andythenorth> | can’t conceptualise a boggle |
| 04:57 | <V453000> | subsitute it with fuck |
| 04:58 | <argoneus> | english is a flexible language |
| 04:58 | <argoneus> | you can express most things with a variation of fuck |
| 04:59 | <__ln__> | argoneus: yes, this game is a result of reverse engineering TTD. |
| 04:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | like replace every instance of "smurf" with "fuck"? |
| 04:59 | <argoneus> | that's impressive in its own way |
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| 05:06 | <@peter1138> | 20 years ago writing games in assembly was fairly common. |
| 05:07 | <andythenorth> | also spreadsheets |
| 05:07 | <andythenorth> | and screensavers |
| 05:07 | <@peter1138> | Declining by the 90s, though. |
| 05:10 | <argoneus> | I wonder why so little people play this game |
| 05:10 | <argoneus> | I feel there's more modders and developers than players |
| 05:10 | <@peter1138> | Because it isn't an AAA FPS shooter on XBONE. |
| 05:11 | <argoneus> | I mean |
| 05:11 | <argoneus> | I understand games like dwarf fortress |
| 05:11 | <andythenorth> | because it doesn’t have dragons |
| 05:11 | <argoneus> | the graphics are no graphics |
| 05:11 | <argoneus> | and it's like the most complex game ever |
| 05:11 | <argoneus> | but this game isn't hard to get into |
| 05:11 | <argoneus> | nor does it look bad |
| 05:12 | <V453000> | it doesnt tell people what to do |
| 05:12 | <V453000> | simple reason |
| 05:12 | <argoneus> | is there a wiki page like "your first game"? |
| 05:12 | <V453000> | with that, majority does not discover the complexity of the game because they have no goal |
| 05:12 | <@planetmaker> | oh, many people can't handle a "no directions" game ;) |
| 05:12 | <argoneus> | *cough* minecrap *cough* |
| 05:13 | <@planetmaker> | argoneus, not that I know, but you could create such page |
| 05:13 | * | __ln__ just installed a preview of Windows NT 6.2 |
| 05:13 | <argoneus> | planetmaker: I could I guess |
| 05:13 | <argoneus> | I'm playing with a friend right now who is super new to the game, and he's struggling with a lot of things |
| 05:13 | <argoneus> | might focus on those things |
| 05:13 | <liq3> | It's a really a game that's quite hard without spending a while reading the wiki. |
| 05:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | __ln__: isn't it already at 6.3? |
| 05:14 | <liq3> | Especially signals. Those things are mysterious. |
| 05:14 | <argoneus> | I might try making an introduction for totally new players wiki page kinda thing |
| 05:14 | <@peter1138> | Adding 4x zoom didn't help. New players complain that the graphics are blocky and crap. |
| 05:14 | <__ln__> | Eddi|zuHause: apparently not |
| 05:14 | <argoneus> | but I'm surprised no one did so yet |
| 05:15 | <argoneus> | like |
| 05:15 | <argoneus> | explaining signals in two paragraphs, and linking to the lengthy page |
| 05:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: probably loads of people did |
| 05:15 | <andythenorth> | add dragons |
| 05:15 | <andythenorth> | problem solved |
| 05:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there are video tutorials and stuff |
| 05:15 | <andythenorth> | also we don’t have any ‘now do this’ buttons |
| 05:15 | <argoneus> | I for one hate video tutorials |
| 05:15 | <argoneus> | they're always like |
| 05:15 | <andythenorth> | some of the most popular tablet games aren’t games |
| 05:16 | <argoneus> | "so umm welcome to my.. umm.. openttd game" |
| 05:16 | <@planetmaker> | peter1138, the default graphics are 8bpp. Maybe we should switch default base set to zBase. But then it would need serious polishing before I'd advise so |
| 05:16 | <andythenorth> | they’re just walk-throughs with rendered iso sprites |
| 05:16 | <argoneus> | "if you like this video, please, ummm.. like and subscribe" |
| 05:16 | <@peter1138> | A lot of people can only play Minecraft because they watched LP videos. |
| 05:16 | <@peter1138> | And they just copy what was done in the video;. |
| 05:16 | <argoneus> | I also noticed there are no streams anywhere |
| 05:16 | <argoneus> | I could stream this game |
| 05:16 | <@peter1138> | planetmaker, no because zBase is fecking ugly. |
| 05:16 | <__ln__> | this WinNT 6.2 has a command prompt window that is resizeable, supports copy&paste, selecting easily with the mouse. |
| 05:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: there is also a tutorial game script, which nobody who is new will actually find |
| 05:16 | <argoneus> | Eddi|zuHause: tutorial game script? |
| 05:16 | <argoneus> | what is that |
| 05:17 | <@peter1138> | (But lots of people think it's better just because it's higher resolution) |
| 05:17 | <argoneus> | zbase makes this look like lego |
| 05:17 | <liq3> | Sounds like we need a big "Tutorial" button on the main menu. |
| 05:17 | * | andythenorth looks around for a fuck to give :) |
| 05:17 | <andythenorth> | doesn’t find any :) |
| 05:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | just add this game script as default... |
| 05:17 | <@planetmaker> | liq3, yes, that might make sense indeed. |
| 05:17 | <andythenorth> | ottd it’s mostly a meta-game |
| 05:18 | <argoneus> | just pay pewdiepie to play this game |
| 05:18 | <argoneus> | instant kid population appears |
| 05:18 | <andythenorth> | mostly the game is developing the game |
| 05:18 | <andythenorth> | not playing the game |
| 05:18 | <andythenorth> | :) |
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| 05:19 | <V453000> | what the fuck did I just read |
| 05:19 | <argoneus> | and then there's people like V453000 |
| 05:19 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 05:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a random andythenorth splurt? |
| 05:19 | <@planetmaker> | V453000, we know what you read. 50% chance 'beer'. 50% chance 'fuck' :P |
| 05:19 | <andythenorth> | there’s always V453000 |
| 05:20 | <V453000> | . |
| 05:20 | <V453000> | well the problem is that nobody is able to make a tutoria |
| 05:20 | <argoneus> | I wish there was something like zbase |
| 05:20 | <V453000> | l |
| 05:20 | <argoneus> | but not looking like super shit |
| 05:20 | <V453000> | since like 1% people actually knows how the game works |
| 05:20 | <V453000> | there will be, it will just take time argoneus :) |
| 05:20 | <V453000> | the amount of people making EZ/32bpp is increasing |
| 05:21 | <argoneus> | zbase feels more like a proof of concept right now |
| 05:21 | <V453000> | which it is yes |
| 05:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | from 1 to 2? |
| 05:21 | <@planetmaker> | it took 1...2 years before 32bpp actually was taken up by the community since it became available in grf format |
| 05:21 | <argoneus> | how did people make graphics before? |
| 05:21 | <argoneus> | did they make a 32bit train and then reduce the color amount? |
| 05:21 | <argoneus> | and resolution |
| 05:21 | <@planetmaker> | it will take another 1...2 years surely before it is established enough that one can see a general improvement in the way these sprites look |
| 05:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that may have happened, but not a lot |
| 05:22 | <V453000> | argoneus: paletted pixel art |
| 05:22 | <argoneus> | oh, right, pixel art |
| 05:22 | * | argoneus shivers |
| 05:22 | <@planetmaker> | it's easy and nice to do |
| 05:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "pointilism" became a thing like 150 years ago |
| 05:22 | <@planetmaker> | you should try actually both ways |
| 05:22 | <V453000> | it isnt easy and many people miss that point :P |
| 05:22 | <V453000> | but you can fuck up less than with rendering |
| 05:22 | <argoneus> | I can't even draw a stickman |
| 05:23 | <V453000> | example, opengfx x zbase |
| 05:23 | <@planetmaker> | rendering just needs more preparation and work to get the same result, I think |
| 05:23 | <argoneus> | just port the game to cryengine ;) |
| 05:23 | <Xaroth|Work> | cryengine is overrated |
| 05:23 | <V453000> | it saves time on repetitive tasks pm, it is just different :) work amount is comparable |
| 05:24 | <@peter1138> | zBase vehicles are too big, and their offsets are wrong very often. |
| 05:24 | <V453000> | e.g. the landscape x roads x rails x everything thing |
| 05:24 | <@planetmaker> | argoneus, how many people do you think were born with a talent and ability to programme or create pixel art or rendered art? You won't know until you really tried. |
| 05:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | rendering needs more setup time before you can actually see what you did |
| 05:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and a totally different set of skills |
| 05:24 | <@planetmaker> | yeah |
| 05:24 | <V453000> | mostly true yes |
| 05:24 | <Xaroth|Work> | but, i must add |
| 05:24 | <Xaroth|Work> | rotatable maps! |
| 05:25 | <@planetmaker> | that's probably the difference. with pixels you get immediate feedback. you don't with rendering |
| 05:25 | * | peter1138 ponders making a 4x zoom version of the TTD baseset... |
| 05:25 | <@peter1138> | Manually editing each and every sprite. Sounds like fun. |
| 05:25 | <V453000> | lol |
| 05:25 | <@planetmaker> | haha :) |
| 05:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'll expect your results in 2 years |
| 05:25 | <argoneus> | planetmaker: I tried 3dsmax, wings 3d, blender, paper + pencil and watercolor, and never produced anything even remotely nonshit |
| 05:25 | <@peter1138> | At least your normal zoom would look nice :-) |
| 05:26 | <argoneus> | I have no talent for art, I would have to practice 8 hours every day for years to produce something noncrap |
| 05:26 | <andythenorth> | so did I |
| 05:26 | <andythenorth> | still trying |
| 05:26 | <V453000> | m2 |
| 05:26 | <argoneus> | I know talent is overrated, but most people that are good at art were not terrible as children at drawing |
| 05:26 | <@peter1138> | argoneus, what do you think artists do? |
| 05:26 | <V453000> | I am terrible at drawing. |
| 05:26 | <argoneus> | my paintings in class were always the worst, that includes others that never even tried drawing |
| 05:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i've produced a handful of decent drawings |
| 05:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | out of hundreds :) |
| 05:27 | <argoneus> | I think of talent more as a headstart than something inherent no one can overcome |
| 05:27 | <@planetmaker> | argoneus, so thought I about myself. I still believe I made the best river sprites this game has ;) |
| 05:28 | <@planetmaker> | and sea shore |
| 05:28 | <argoneus> | I dunno |
| 05:28 | <argoneus> | when people are good at drawing, they can see the shapes they want to draw in their head, no? |
| 05:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i noticed that i am really terrible at reproducing things out of my head, but painting something i see in front of me is alright, within limits... |
| 05:29 | <argoneus> | I just don't think |
| 05:29 | <argoneus> | that someone who is literally terrible at drawing anything would be able to do pixel art or even 3d art properly |
| 05:29 | <liq3> | I'm good at drawing things I can see, horrible at everything else. I barely draw too. |
| 05:29 | <argoneus> | I know V453000 said he is bad at drawing, but he's probably not super terrible |
| 05:29 | <@peter1138> | Practice practice practice. |
| 05:29 | <V453000> | I am super terrible |
| 05:30 | <V453000> | because I never practiced it |
| 05:30 | <argoneus> | and I don't even have time to practice anymore :< |
| 05:30 | <argoneus> | unless I feel like drawing from 7pm to 11pm every day and then going to bed |
| 05:30 | <andythenorth> | pixel art is just on a grid |
| 05:30 | <andythenorth> | easy |
| 05:30 | <andythenorth> | painting requires your hand to go where your eye wants |
| 05:30 | <V453000> | and I am able to do both pixels and 3D models to some extent |
| 05:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there are probably loads of pixel artists that are terrible at hand-drawing |
| 05:30 | <andythenorth> | physical skill, limiting |
| 05:30 | <@planetmaker> | but then, there's only very few people who ever drew rivers and sea shores for this game and actually spend much time on it. Not much competition. mb's rivers are nice, but they could be more versatile as available NewGRF technique advanced |
| 05:30 | <V453000> | pixel art is not drawing, pixel art is filling pixels in a table |
| 05:30 | <V453000> | Especially with the palette |
| 05:30 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: I have some river corners? o_O |
| 05:31 | <andythenorth> | river grf :P |
| 05:31 | <argoneus> | I'm amazed every time I see those videos |
| 05:31 | <@peter1138> | zBase rivers sucky, incidently. As so road junctions... |
| 05:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | V453000: pixel art is a lot about placing "wrong" pixels in places that makes it look really nice when zoomed out |
| 05:31 | <argoneus> | where people open photoshop, draw things, use all the photoshop tools to smoothen, curve, shadow, etc, and it works out perfectly |
| 05:31 | <argoneus> | I wish I could do that, but I don't have the motivation to practice, since there's no guarantee I will actually get any nonshit |
| 05:32 | <@planetmaker> | I know, andythenorth :) But one can do more fancy corners. Something which actually currently is only found in ogfx+landscape :) |
| 05:32 | <V453000> | that is true but that is beside the point Eddi :) |
| 05:32 | <@planetmaker> | I still want to port that to OpenGFX itself before 1.5 |
| 05:32 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: yes exactly - fancier... |
| 05:32 | <@planetmaker> | peter1138, zbase rivers and especially sea shores are the most ugly thing there, yes |
| 05:32 | <V453000> | competition on the most ugly in zbase is big though |
| 05:33 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, does fancy have a negative connotation? |
| 05:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | V453000: but that is usually why rendered stuff looks somewhat bad at this pixelated zoom level |
| 05:33 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: no :) |
| 05:33 | <andythenorth> | not at all |
| 05:33 | <argoneus> | by the way |
| 05:33 | <V453000> | it isnt Eddi :) 32bpp allows sub-pixel transitions |
| 05:33 | <@planetmaker> | pew :) |
| 05:33 | <argoneus> | why does yeti make my game lag a little when zoomed out? isn't it just a sprite like any other? |
| 05:33 | <V453000> | it is |
| 05:33 | <argoneus> | and I don't even think it's my computer |
| 05:34 | <V453000> | but 128 times that amount XD |
| 05:34 | <V453000> | try increasing sprite cache |
| 05:34 | <V453000> | I have 256 |
| 05:34 | <argoneus> | where do you increase that? |
| 05:34 | <V453000> | openttd.cfg |
| 05:34 | <argoneus> | ah ok |
| 05:34 | <argoneus> | I'll try |
| 05:35 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, for all I know there's ttd rivers, your rivers, mb's, zeph's and some by leppka |
| 05:35 | <V453000> | I think default is 64 or something |
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| 05:35 | <argoneus> | it's probably that, then |
| 05:35 | <argoneus> | my computer should have no reason to struggle with the game |
| 05:35 | <@planetmaker> | and all rivers are basically like canals except it's grass border instead of stone |
| 05:35 | <V453000> | I heard from many people that it helps a ton to increase the sprite cache |
| 05:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: just because the game is 20 years old doesn't mean it can't push modern computers to the limits |
| 05:36 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: the square corners… |
| 05:36 | <argoneus> | Eddi|zuHause: well, I have an overclocked 4670k and a GTX 770 |
| 05:36 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, exactly. And with a bit of programming trickery and more sprites one can do with less square corners |
| 05:36 | <argoneus> | if the game pushed that to the limit |
| 05:36 | <argoneus> | I would be surprised |
| 05:36 | <@planetmaker> | like in ogfx+landscape I have truely vertical and horizontal rivers, and that works |
| 05:36 | <V453000> | 1 core matters |
| 05:36 | <argoneus> | I have yet to see something push it to the limit |
| 05:37 | <argoneus> | well |
| 05:37 | <V453000> | go load pzg2013 and say again :) |
| 05:37 | <argoneus> | 4.2 ghz :< |
| 05:37 | <@planetmaker> | and in pota-ghat with the 4x zoom one can make a bit more wiggle-waggle river borders, too, so that it looks more natural |
| 05:37 | <argoneus> | and the latest i5 architecture |
| 05:37 | <@planetmaker> | similar for sea shores |
| 05:37 | <argoneus> | V453000: what is pzg? |
| 05:37 | <V453000> | pro zone game |
| 05:37 | <V453000> | 5000 trains |
| 05:37 | <liq3> | V453000: That game lags when I zoom out. o.o |
| 05:37 | <V453000> | wrecks shit |
| 05:37 | <argoneus> | is pro zone meant for people like you |
| 05:37 | <argoneus> | ? |
| 05:37 | <@planetmaker> | it's managed by people like him ;) |
| 05:37 | <V453000> | well that game is kind of my personal game but it is meant for everybody |
| 05:38 | <V453000> | who knows some basics and wants to build |
| 05:38 | <argoneus> | so unless I can make junctions with 8 lines from each side, I am not good enough |
| 05:38 | <@planetmaker> | it's a server for the die-hard crazy builders |
| 05:38 | <argoneus> | :D |
| 05:39 | <V453000> | with 0 games in 2014 ._. |
| 05:39 | <@planetmaker> | none of that stuff is built from scratch really. It all evolved in hours of play time |
| 05:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | they all died hard |
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| 05:39 | <argoneus> | so let's say I am tempted to make some sort of tutorial |
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| 05:40 | <liq3> | There a way to show FPS ingame? |
| 05:40 | <argoneus> | what kind of is needed? |
| 05:40 | <argoneus> | I mean |
| 05:40 | <argoneus> | Eddi|zuHause said there were all sorts of things |
| 05:40 | <argoneus> | tutorials, video tutorials, game scripts |
| 05:40 | <argoneus> | I'm not sure where one could contribute in that sense |
| 05:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: a) filtering out things that actually give bad advice (like explaining block signals first, and then path signals), and b) putting it in places where newbies will actually come across them |
| 05:42 | <argoneus> | Eddi|zuHause: why is a) bad? |
| 05:42 | <argoneus> | block signals are much more easy to understand |
| 05:42 | <argoneus> | because there's no black magic |
| 05:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a) they are not, b) path signals are both easier and more powerful, if you teach them the proper way of thinking |
| 05:42 | <@peter1138> | No they're not. |
| 05:42 | <SpComb> | as long as you don't explain presignals |
| 05:43 | <SpComb> | apart from "avoid using these for anything" |
| 05:43 | <argoneus> | mmh |
| 05:43 | <@peter1138> | We only kept block signals for compatibility. |
| 05:43 | <argoneus> | I'll try writing a short writeup on signals |
| 05:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you teach them thinking in block signals first, the path signals indeed seem like "black magic" |
| 05:43 | <argoneus> | and consult with you here |
| 05:43 | <argoneus> | is that okay? |
| 05:43 | <@peter1138> | First versions were path-signals only :D |
| 05:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | because they are a huge paradigm shift |
| 05:44 | <argoneus> | but i dunno |
| 05:44 | <argoneus> | block signals are like |
| 05:44 | <argoneus> | here's a railroad, here's a signal, this signal works until next signal, it does this, okay |
| 05:44 | <SpComb> | it's far preferrable to use path-signals only, as opposed to using block signals and then mixing in other things as well |
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| 05:44 | <argoneus> | here's a path signal |
| 05:44 | <argoneus> | it does SOMETHING and RESERVES the BEST path based on SOME penalties |
| 05:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: see, that is the wrong way of thinking about signals. |
| 05:44 | <V453000> | argoneus: see, even the developers do not understand waht is good for the game, everybody propagates path signals because they are noobs |
| 05:45 | <SpComb> | block signals alone are simpler, but... block signals alone are fairly useless/limiting, you have to use some more complicated signals as well |
| 05:45 | <SpComb> | and at that point block signals become more complicated than just pure path signals |
| 05:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: a path signal is "the train may wait here without blocking any other train" |
| 05:45 | <argoneus> | maybe I am biased |
| 05:45 | <V453000> | there is po point in creating proper tutorial if devs tell you otherwise |
| 05:45 | <argoneus> | but yesterday I joined a server |
| 05:45 | <argoneus> | and someone used these so called amazing easy to use path signals |
| 05:46 | <argoneus> | http://puu.sh/bVMMe/1dd3a08680.png |
| 05:46 | <argoneus> | just why |
| 05:46 | <V453000> | 2way PBS is especially worst |
| 05:46 | <V453000> | == is default |
| 05:46 | <V453000> | perfect. |
| 05:46 | <@peter1138> | People do that with block signals too. |
| 05:46 | <V453000> | least intuitive signal |
| 05:46 | <V453000> | looks like 1way |
| 05:46 | <V453000> | is 2way |
| 05:46 | <V453000> | default for new players |
| 05:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: there is nothing "wrong" with that setup |
| 05:46 | <@peter1138> | V453000 obviously hasn't got over the paradigm shift. |
| 05:47 | <argoneus> | Eddi|zuHause: there isn't nothing wrong in the way it works |
| 05:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | except that most of the signals are useless |
| 05:47 | <argoneus> | but it's wrong conceptually |
| 05:47 | <argoneus> | there could be block signals everywhere except the one at the entrance to the station |
| 05:47 | <argoneus> | and it would work the same |
| 05:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: so? |
| 05:47 | <argoneus> | arguably even there could be a block signal |
| 05:48 | <argoneus> | I dunno |
| 05:48 | <argoneus> | maybe I think too much programming wise |
| 05:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: a path signal is never worse than a block signal |
| 05:48 | <argoneus> | doesn't the game calculate the best path every time you go past one |
| 05:48 | <argoneus> | (path signal) |
| 05:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: so there is nothing wrong with path signals everywhere |
| 05:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: no, it only calculates paths when there is an actual choice |
| 05:48 | <argoneus> | so when there isn't, it behaves like a block signal? |
| 05:49 | <SpComb> | I suppose the main point to path signas re a tutorial is that they're the only thing you'll ever need if you know how to use them properly. The main point of a tutorial.. |
| 05:50 | <argoneus> | I just think |
| 05:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | SpComb: the main point of a tutorial should be to give the least amount of information necessary to create useful stuff. and in that respect, path signals are faaaaaar superior |
| 05:50 | <argoneus> | that block signals always work much more obviously |
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| 05:50 | <argoneus> | path signals do black magic when you put them before a junction |
| 05:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: i disagree |
| 05:50 | <argoneus> | they work, and they work great |
| 05:51 | <argoneus> | but a new player will not see what happened there |
| 05:51 | <argoneus> | and will just use path signals as an all powerful magic wand |
| 05:51 | <@peter1138> | There is no black magic. |
| 05:51 | <argoneus> | to get his trains where he needs |
| 05:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: if you teach them block signals, the immediate followup is "how do i get them to wait for a free platform?" |
| 05:51 | <argoneus> | p-presignals |
| 05:51 | <SpComb> | argoneus: block signals work great if they're the only kind of signal you would ever need. But they're not. Teaching block signals is short-sighted |
| 05:51 | <argoneus> | I would teach all of them |
| 05:51 | <argoneus> | explain pros and cons of all |
| 05:51 | <@peter1138> | Path signals are the only kind of signal you need. |
| 05:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: if you teach them path signals, the answer to that is: "just remove the signals where it shouldn't be waiting" |
| 05:51 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: actually, I had a situation where path signals were worse than block signals. |
| 05:52 | <liq3> | The trains were stopping at the path signal for no reason. Block signals fixed it. |
| 05:52 | <argoneus> | I didn't mean to preach that block signals > path signals |
| 05:52 | <argoneus> | I meant to say |
| 05:52 | <argoneus> | okay you have these two types |
| 05:52 | <argoneus> | you use this for X, this for Y, sometimes these are better |
| 05:52 | <argoneus> | usually you want to use these |
| 05:52 | <SpComb> | argoneus: exactly, and once you explain pre-signals you've screwed up imo. Nobody should be using presignals |
| 05:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: but "teach all of them" is what all the signal tutorials out there already do, and that just produces people saying "this is all waaaaay to complex and complicated for me." |
| 05:52 | <argoneus> | well |
| 05:52 | <argoneus> | from what I've read |
| 05:53 | <argoneus> | most tutorials explain all the signals |
| 05:53 | <argoneus> | and show use cases for all of them |
| 05:53 | <liq3> | SpBot: Presignals are important in a lot of ways. |
| 05:53 | <argoneus> | but don't tell you why you should ne using which |
| 05:53 | <@peter1138> | Most start with block signals, which is crap. |
| 05:53 | <argoneus> | be* |
| 05:53 | <argoneus> | there are use cases for pre signals |
| 05:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: while all that is useful information for pro-gamers, this should NOT be in a tutorial |
| 05:54 | <argoneus> | then how about |
| 05:54 | <argoneus> | first I would explain path signals, what they do, how they are used properly |
| 05:54 | <argoneus> | and then |
| 05:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and then nothing |
| 05:54 | <argoneus> | "the game also features an older type of signals, blabla" |
| 05:54 | <liq3> | Actually, I kind of have to agree. For newbies, path signals are fine. |
| 05:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | teach them other stuff |
| 05:54 | <liq3> | Newbies don't need block signals. |
| 05:54 | <argoneus> | I mean like |
| 05:54 | <argoneus> | let them know |
| 05:54 | <argoneus> | you are fine with these |
| 05:54 | <argoneus> | but if you would like to know more |
| 05:54 | <argoneus> | read this |
| 05:54 | <@peter1138> | Seasoned players don't need block signals either. |
| 05:54 | <liq3> | peter1138: yes we do? |
| 05:54 | <@peter1138> | Some players think they do. |
| 05:55 | <argoneus> | peter1138: how do you make priority lines with just path signals? |
| 05:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | only crazy people like V think they need block signals |
| 05:55 | <@peter1138> | Becauase they like to do weird crap with crazyassed priority systems and the like. |
| 05:55 | <argoneus> | it's not crazy assed |
| 05:55 | <@peter1138> | argoneus, I have never in my life needed to make a "priority line". |
| 05:55 | <argoneus> | you don't want a huge full train stop for a small poop train leaving a station |
| 05:55 | <argoneus> | esp. if it has low acceleration |
| 05:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | make a timetable |
| 05:55 | <liq3> | peter1138: you ever had a factory on a 256x256 map producing 10,000 goods a month? |
| 05:55 | <argoneus> | so I should explain timetables to newbies instead of block signas? |
| 05:56 | <argoneus> | signals* |
| 05:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no |
| 05:56 | <liq3> | and all the trains from it sharing the same mainline as everything else.... |
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| 05:56 | <@peter1138> | One or another train needs to stop to let another train go. I couldn't care less which train actually goes first. |
| 05:56 | <argoneus> | it's not difficult |
| 05:56 | <argoneus> | the tutorial could have 2 parts |
| 05:56 | <argoneus> | "getting started" and "advanced concepts" |
| 05:57 | <argoneus> | first part would be all you need to make money and not have your trains crash |
| 05:57 | <@peter1138> | "Stupid concepts" < fixed that for you |
| 05:57 | <liq3> | I should go remove all the priorities on my network to see how much it jams... |
| 05:57 | <argoneus> | second part would be a showcase of more robust things you can do with the game |
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| 05:57 | <@peter1138> | If you have so many trains that they are stopping all the time to let others in... make more lines. |
| 05:57 | <argoneus> | if you don't want to read it, don't |
| 05:57 | <liq3> | peter1138: I already have LLL_RRR mainline. 4 would get even more excessive. |
| 05:57 | <argoneus> | I'll just try writing something up later |
| 05:58 | <argoneus> | and then ask you for opinions |
| 05:58 | <argoneus> | it's actually good people here have different opinions |
| 05:58 | <argoneus> | variety is always good |
| 05:58 | <argoneus> | gives more insight |
| 05:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: maybe you should have made different choices before you even got to the point of a "LLL_RRR" setup? |
| 05:59 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: It was LL_RR before. I had to expand it to 3 to deal with cargo production. |
| 05:59 | <liq3> | Admittedly, I set myself the limition of a signal mainline, so. |
| 05:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i've never ever had the need for a LL_RR setup either |
| 05:59 | <liq3> | single* |
| 06:00 | <@peter1138> | I always wondered why people chose L and R as directions... |
| 06:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | my maps end up looking like this: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB) |
| 06:00 | <@peter1138> | Lost? Return? |
| 06:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: i thought "left track" and "right track" |
| 06:00 | <liq3> | peter1138: it's just left/rigth. |
| 06:01 | <@peter1138> | left and right don't indicate the direction at all though. They indicate position. And you already know the position. |
| 06:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: yes, but "all left tracks go into the same direction" is all the relevant information at that point |
| 06:02 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, see, that is a beautiful game. I am only missing the connectors to hook up another segment on the left-bottom edge :-) |
| 06:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and it has not a single block signal on it :p |
| 06:04 | <argoneus> | do all signals cost the same maintenance money? |
| 06:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes |
| 06:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there's an urban myth that path signals need more CPU power, but no evidence was ever brought up to support that claim |
| 06:06 | <argoneus> | I wonder |
| 06:06 | <argoneus> | can I put my tutorial anywhere I want on the wiki? |
| 06:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's a wiki |
| 06:07 | * | argoneus has never added content to someone else's wiki |
| 06:07 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, probably based on this misconception that path signals do path finding... |
| 06:07 | <argoneus> | well |
| 06:07 | <argoneus> | on the normal wiki |
| 06:07 | <argoneus> | the power users always slapped m yshit |
| 06:07 | <argoneus> | whenever I added anything |
| 06:07 | <argoneus> | called me a vandal etc |
| 06:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe you are |
| 06:07 | <argoneus> | :O |
| 06:07 | <argoneus> | peter1138: they don't? |
| 06:08 | <dih> | hello :-) |
| 06:08 | <argoneus> | I mean, don't they reserve a path? |
| 06:08 | <argoneus> | and don't they have to find a path first |
| 06:08 | <@peter1138> | No, trains themselves do that. |
| 06:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no. trains reserve a path, not signals |
| 06:08 | <@peter1138> | And trains pathfind whenever they encounter a choice. |
| 06:08 | <argoneus> | well |
| 06:08 | <@peter1138> | Path signals by themselves are not a choice. |
| 06:09 | <@peter1138> | Assuming you take the same route, there is an equal amount of pathfinding regardless of signal type. |
| 06:09 | <@peter1138> | It's possible that block signals actually do more work, because they explicitly have to check the status of every other signal in each block. |
| 06:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there may be even _less_ pathfinding involved, because in a "block" a train may pathfind on every junction tile, but in a "path", all junction tiles until the next signal is processed at the same time |
| 06:10 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, :-) |
| 06:10 | <blathijs> | iii/win 20 |
| 06:10 | <blathijs> | w00ps |
| 06:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i want to win 20 as well :/ |
| 06:12 | <@peter1138> | Would be interesting to see the evidence for this "slower" claim though. |
| 06:12 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: This is my Factory stations http://i.imgur.com/CW3WW3D.png |
| 06:12 | <@peter1138> | There was the whole 'massive' overhead in marking the path itself... |
| 06:13 | <@peter1138> | Ok gotta close Eddi|zuHause's artwork, it's crapping my browser out :S |
| 06:14 | <@peter1138> | And liq3's picture is just ugly. |
| 06:14 | <@peter1138> | Ah well, I guess I play for aesthetics :p |
| 06:15 | <@peter1138> | Not giant multiplatform-but-only-3-tiles-long stations. |
| 06:16 | <liq3> | peter1138: I have trees not drawing for clarity. :p |
| 06:17 | <liq3> | Yeh. That's the difference peter1138. You play for aesthetics, some of us play for crazy throughput. :P |
| 06:17 | <liq3> | Can't do high throughput without pre-signals. |
| 06:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or maybe you just haven't tried properly? |
| 06:18 | <liq3> | I just disabled my priorities on my sideline hubs. The network is grinding to a halt, due to all the delays from joining trains on the mainline. :D |
| 06:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you have a timetabled conflict-free network, then you don't need presignals |
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| 06:19 | <liq3> | I'm not timetabling 250 trains. o.o |
| 06:20 | <argoneus> | you don't need presignals if you code your own priority system! |
| 06:20 | <liq3> | haha |
| 06:20 | <argoneus> | thus presignals are useless |
| 06:20 | <@peter1138> | Feel free. |
| 06:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i would have ripped out presignals years ago... |
| 06:22 | <argoneus> | but sometimes you really need them |
| 06:22 | <argoneus> | if you have a huge station and one path signal |
| 06:22 | <argoneus> | it might send the train into unoptimal paths |
| 06:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | then remove these paths |
| 06:22 | <argoneus> | since it only calculates so far ahead |
| 06:23 | <@peter1138> | No... |
| 06:23 | <@planetmaker> | block signals do even less look-ahead |
| 06:23 | <liq3> | I did find a situation where path signals stopped the trains for no reason. |
| 06:23 | <argoneus> | but you can place more presignals |
| 06:23 | <@peter1138> | Trains always plan the whole route. |
| 06:23 | <argoneus> | you can place combo signals |
| 06:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: "no reason" != "i didn't understand the reason" |
| 06:24 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: Block signals fixed it. |
| 06:24 | <liq3> | So it's a path signal specific issue. :p |
| 06:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: i'm sure avoiding black cats also fixed issues |
| 06:24 | <argoneus> | didnt V453000 point out some scenarios where path signals did more bad than good a while ago? |
| 06:25 | <argoneus> | or maybe it was someone else |
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| 06:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: what you mean is not a "fix", but a "workaround" |
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| 06:26 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause; well yes. |
| 06:26 | <Jinassi> | good afternoon, Planetmaker, any news about the desync logs from last week? |
| 06:26 | <@peter1138> | My car didn't start, so I didn't bother finding out what, I just replaced it. |
| 06:26 | <@peter1138> | (Turns out it was out of fuel, crazy black magic huh?) |
| 06:27 | <argoneus> | I just don't see why peter1138 is so set on this |
| 06:27 | <argoneus> | is it bad to admit that pre signals have their use? |
| 06:27 | <argoneus> | and that path signals aren't fine for EVERYTHING but only like 90% of use cases? |
| 06:27 | <@peter1138> | 11:21 < Eddi|zuHause> i would have ripped out presignals years ago... |
| 06:27 | <argoneus> | or less |
| 06:27 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, hell yes, and block signals :D |
| 06:28 | <@peter1138> | Like the original path signals patch. That was awesome. |
| 06:28 | <argoneus> | isn't there a reason they were re-added? :< |
| 06:28 | <@peter1138> | They weren't readded. They were just not removed, so that old games would be compatible still. |
| 06:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: yes, 0.1% of people crying "... but my extremely specialized setup..." |
| 06:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: so it's not 90% but more like 99.9%, and those 0.1% are actually shortcomings in some other features |
| 06:29 | <liq3> | I think I see what the issue is. |
| 06:29 | <liq3> | Just checked my save. |
| 06:30 | <liq3> | Something to do with trains leaving a station with a bypass. |
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| 06:30 | <liq3> | They'll wait for the train to leave the platform instead of using the bypass (which leads to more platforms for the same station). |
| 06:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: then your "occupied platform" penalty isn't large enough for the bypass |
| 06:30 | <Jinassi> | do you have non-stop orders? |
| 06:31 | <liq3> | Yes. |
| 06:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: that's an almost trivial fix |
| 06:31 | <liq3> | If the station is full and no trains are leaving, they use the bypass no problem. |
| 06:31 | <@peter1138> | Do you have tons of signals on the bypass? |
| 06:31 | <liq3> | well, first 5 platforms are full. |
| 06:31 | <liq3> | peter1138: yes. |
| 06:31 | <argoneus> | screenshot |
| 06:31 | <@peter1138> | Well there you go. |
| 06:32 | <@peter1138> | That increases the penalty of the bypass |
| 06:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: so you mean the platform is actually free, just no signal behind it? |
| 06:32 | <liq3> | ...I'll post the screenshot. |
| 06:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: that's actually a shortcoming of the pathfinder, it won't add any penalties for things happening behind the platform |
| 06:33 | <liq3> | http://i.imgur.com/QOF0Vsj.png |
| 06:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so if you don't have a signal directly behind the platform, things appear to "break" |
| 06:33 | <liq3> | Problem signal is the bottom right path signal. |
| 06:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no, the "problem" is the time between leaving the platform, and leaving the tile behind the platform which has no signal on it |
| 06:35 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: yes. |
| 06:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | just put signals there, and everything will be fine |
| 06:35 | <liq3> | The train that reaches the path signal waits for the train to leave, instead of using the bypass. |
| 06:35 | <liq3> | where? |
| 06:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | immediately behind the platform |
| 06:35 | <liq3> | they're 1 tile behind it... |
| 06:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, they must be 0 tiles behind it |
| 06:36 | <liq3> | let's find out. ;p |
| 06:36 | <@peter1138> | Weird seeing green signals everywhere... |
| 06:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i vaguely remember trying to fix this shortcoming, but i didn't get anywhere |
| 06:37 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: nope still happens. |
| 06:37 | <liq3> | Less frequently though. |
| 06:38 | <liq3> | Pre-signals don't have the problem. :p |
| 06:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: yes, because there is a signal _before_ the platform which adds the pathfinder penalty, not _behind_ |
| 06:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which is, again, a workaround. not a fix |
| 06:39 | <liq3> | actually |
| 06:39 | <liq3> | it's because the combo/exit signals are red, so they immediately choose the only green signal, I'm pretty sure |
| 06:39 | <liq3> | though admittedly that's probably implemented with penalties. |
| 06:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes |
| 06:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "lastred" penalty |
| 06:40 | <liq3> | does OpenTTD have a way to show FPS? |
| 06:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no |
| 06:40 | <liq3> | ...really? |
| 06:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's not a hugely relevant figure for... anything |
| 06:41 | <@peter1138> | It's fixed at 33 fps. |
| 06:41 | <argoneus> | just make a fps counter with path signals |
| 06:41 | <liq3> | peter1138: It drops below that in same games. Want to know what it's dropping to. |
| 06:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's not like you die from low fps |
| 06:41 | <@peter1138> | Seconds are extended if necessary. |
| 06:41 | <liq3> | I'm also guessing that this game doesn't use GPU acceleration? |
| 06:42 | <argoneus> | I think SDL does |
| 06:42 | <liq3> | SDL blitting doesn't. |
| 06:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | 2D acceleration |
| 06:42 | <liq3> | iirc. |
| 06:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the blitting doesn't, but pushing the framebuffer onto the screen does |
| 06:42 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: that doesn't mean it's using the GPU. :p |
| 06:43 | <liq3> | I noticed because when I zoom out on PZG2013, it lags, but GPU is still only 25%. |
| 06:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: ever tried to use the game on a machine that _actually_ doesn't have 2D acceleration and draws the screen pixel by pixel? |
| 06:43 | <liq3> | doesn't lag when zoomed in. |
| 06:43 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: I've made programs that do that. I can imagine the fractional FPS. |
| 06:43 | <@peter1138> | It slowed down because there is FUCK LOADS of stuff to draw. |
| 06:43 | <liq3> | peter1138: Odd it only used 25% of my GPU to draw all that. |
| 06:44 | <@peter1138> | It used your CPU to draw it. |
| 06:44 | <liq3> | And there's the problem. :P |
| 06:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: the framebuffer stays the same size, so GPU usage does not depend on zoom level |
| 06:44 | <@peter1138> | Nope, it's a 2D game. |
| 06:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | only on window size |
| 06:44 | <liq3> | I'm pretty sure 2d games benefit from GPU acceleration too. :/ |
| 06:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes |
| 06:45 | <@peter1138> | There have been attempts at using 3D accelerated blitter, however it works out slower due to the sheer amount of stuff to be drawn. |
| 06:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you have only 2^n sized sprites |
| 06:45 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, pretty sure that limitation is long gone :) |
| 06:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: people tried making opengl blitters before, they usually turned out slower than what we already have |
| 06:46 | <liq3> | "blitters" >.> |
| 06:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's what it's called... i didn't invent the word |
| 06:47 | <liq3> | ...I just looked up the word Blitter on wiki... ugh |
| 06:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: basically you throw a large number of sprites on it, and it tries to figure out what's drawn in front of what |
| 06:49 | <liq3> | what version of SDL does OpenTTD use? |
| 06:49 | <@peter1138> | 1.2 |
| 06:49 | <liq3> | right. |
| 06:49 | <liq3> | Ah well, I imagine proper GPU usage would fix the slow downs, but I doubt it's worth anyone's time to code it. |
| 06:49 | <__ln__> | liq3: do you intend to say something about SDL and OS X? |
| 06:49 | <@peter1138> | It wouldn't. |
| 06:50 | <@peter1138> | Anyway, you run into the issue of colour mapping. |
| 06:50 | <liq3> | Nah, just found a reddit article that says SDL 2.0 uses the GPU. |
| 06:51 | <@peter1138> | And we do some palette animation too. |
| 06:51 | <liq3> | hrm |
| 06:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | palette animation is a lost concept, i'm afraid :p |
| 06:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | like modern GPUs dropping 8bpp acceleration and stuff |
| 06:52 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, paletted texture support is fading out, iirc. |
| 06:53 | <@peter1138> | Support for the EXT_paletted_texture extension has been dropped by the major GL vendors. If you really need paletted textures on new hardware, you may use shaders to achieve that effect. |
| 06:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: so in all likelyhood, if you port blitting to the GPU, you have to drop a lot of features |
| 06:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or it will stop working in the near future |
| 06:53 | <@peter1138> | I think if you did it's an all-or-nothing change. |
| 06:54 | <liq3> | heh. |
| 06:54 | <liq3> | It only really affects people that make 1000+ train maps anyway. |
| 06:54 | <@peter1138> | liq3, not really |
| 06:54 | <liq3> | ...Right, I forget I have a good GPU |
| 06:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | on 1000+ train maps you have different issues than GPU acceleration |
| 06:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the 1000+ sprites that trains add make virtually no difference |
| 06:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | compared to the 1 million trees |
| 06:55 | <liq3> | lol. |
| 06:57 | <Jinassi> | animations make a huge impact |
| 06:57 | <@peter1138> | If it really lags though, you can try dropping your max zoom in level. If that improves it, edit the sprite cache size. Or something. |
| 06:57 | <@peter1138> | Palette animation does, yeah. |
| 06:58 | <Jinassi> | we tested running server with grf that have the option to turn off the palette animations an it worked wonders on load |
| 06:58 | <@peter1138> | ... |
| 06:58 | <@peter1138> | Palette animation is a game option, not a GRF option. |
| 06:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there's a setting for that, you know |
| 06:58 | <liq3> | doubling the sprite cache seemed to have helped. Hard to tell without a FPS counter tho. |
| 06:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, the (dedicated) server throws all that stuff out |
| 06:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe we should invest in dynamic sprite cache allocation |
| 07:00 | <@peter1138> | On a sane OS, if you allocate tons of sprite cache memory, it won't actually be allocated unless it's used. |
| 07:00 | <@peter1138> | Not sure about Windows. |
| 07:02 | <Jinassi> | It reserves memory and if you do not have enough memory to be allocated for more clients it reminds you it cannot allocated given size and lowers it. |
| 07:02 | <liq3> | ...Switching to OpenGL would fix it. The claim that it's "too many sprites" it's simply silly. Modern games have models made up of thousands of triangles. :/ |
| 07:02 | <liq3> | (millions?) |
| 07:03 | <liq3> | CPUs just aren't good at rendering graphics. :/ |
| 07:03 | <@peter1138> | triangles are not sprites. |
| 07:03 | <liq3> | Yes they are. How do you think the GPU textures them? |
| 07:03 | <liq3> | They're actually more complicated.... |
| 07:03 | <@peter1138> | ... |
| 07:03 | <@peter1138> | triangles are triangles. |
| 07:04 | <@peter1138> | Textures are mapped to a complete mesh. |
| 07:04 | <liq3> | You're really claiming 2d sprites would demand more GPU power than a 10,000+ triangle textured 3d model? |
| 07:06 | <@peter1138> | 1) There's several thousand sprites loaded. Most 3D games get away with reusing a smaller number of textures |
| 07:06 | <@peter1138> | 2) There's still CPU time involved in telling the GPU what to do |
| 07:07 | <liq3> | You load all the sprites into the VRAM, and then the CPU is just telling the GPU where to put them. :/ |
| 07:07 | <@peter1138> | That's mostly because the game architecture isn't designed for the way 3D stuff works |
| 07:07 | <liq3> | I think. I haven't done gfx programming recently. |
| 07:08 | <liq3> | Yeh. i get that. |
| 07:08 | <liq3> | I don't even think it's worth changing it over. |
| 07:08 | <@peter1138> | In OTTD, not everything is drawn every frame |
| 07:08 | <@peter1138> | With 3D acceleration, you either need to do that or faff about with some magic. |
| 07:09 | <liq3> | I'm pretty sure you can just not draw certain things. |
| 07:10 | <@peter1138> | You could probably use a PBO or whatever the current least-deprecated method is. |
| 07:10 | <liq3> | Shaders is the current method. |
| 07:11 | <liq3> | I'm pretty sure even PBOs are out dated. |
| 07:11 | <@peter1138> | Shaders don't replace PBOs |
| 07:11 | <liq3> | hrm. |
| 07:11 | <@peter1138> | Shaders replace a particular use of PBOs though. |
| 07:11 | <liq3> | Yeh i dunno. I haven't done it in ages. |
| 07:11 | <liq3> | Ah. Might be PBOs + shaders then. |
| 07:11 | <@peter1138> | You're thinking of things like bloom. |
| 07:11 | <liq3> | Nah I'm thinking of drawing methods in opengl. |
| 07:11 | <liq3> | Direct got removed ages ago. |
| 07:11 | <liq3> | There was another one, and then another. I think PBO was the fastest? Don't remember. |
| 07:12 | <@planetmaker> | liq3, if you know your stuff around, it surely is a nice challenge to improve on the previous incarnation of the OpenGL blitter? :) |
| 07:12 | <@planetmaker> | we can be convinced, if things are backed up by actual profiling data |
| 07:12 | <liq3> | I don't. I've done like a single tutorial on opengl. xD |
| 07:12 | <liq3> | I'd have to learn it all again. :D |
| 07:12 | <@peter1138> | Ah, and expert then. |
| 07:13 | <liq3> | Hey, I've made 2d programs in opengl. ;< |
| 07:13 | <@peter1138> | 12:02 < liq3> ...Switching to OpenGL would fix it. The claim that it's "too many sprites" it's simply silly. Modern games have models made up of thousands of triangles. :/ |
| 07:13 | <@peter1138> | I'm glad you are able to substantiate that based on your extensive ability in opengl. |
| 07:15 | <@peter1138> | Every time a tile is drawn, there is a function called that determines what should be drawn, and adds to a list of sprites. This itself can take quite some CPU time. |
| 07:16 | <@planetmaker> | and couldn't be done by gpu :) |
| 07:16 | <@peter1138> | Of course, because not every tile is drawn all the time, that's alleviated. |
| 07:16 | <@peter1138> | It's not something you can even speed up with VBOs. |
| 07:17 | <@peter1138> | You'd need to keep state on exactly what was drawn last time to know if you need to update the VBO. |
| 07:18 | <liq3> | peter1138: about polygon counts... http://wccftech.com/ryse-polygon-count-comparision-aaa-titles-crysis-star-citizen/ |
| 07:18 | <@peter1138> | liq3, sprites are not polygons. |
| 07:18 | <liq3> | yes they are |
| 07:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no, they are also textures |
| 07:19 | <@peter1138> | No, sprites are not polygons. |
| 07:19 | <@peter1138> | Sprites are textures. |
| 07:20 | <argoneus> | aren't all the sprites drawn to a buffer |
| 07:20 | <argoneus> | which is then drawn all at once |
| 07:20 | <argoneus> | instead of drawing sprites one by one |
| 07:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes |
| 07:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and liq3 wants to change that |
| 07:20 | <@peter1138> | Yes, that's doing the drawing with the CPU. |
| 07:21 | <argoneus> | polygons don't exist in 2d |
| 07:21 | <argoneus> | sprites don't exist in 3d |
| 07:21 | <argoneus> | :< |
| 07:21 | <@peter1138> | textures exist in 3d, they're pretty much the same thing. |
| 07:21 | <argoneus> | can textures be animated? |
| 07:22 | <@peter1138> | Generally you just use multiple textures for that. |
| 07:22 | <argoneus> | but with sprites |
| 07:22 | <argoneus> | you can have sprite sheets |
| 07:22 | <argoneus> | no? |
| 07:22 | <argoneus> | with animations |
| 07:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the game uses two types of animation |
| 07:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | palette animation that exchanges all pixels of one colour with another colour |
| 07:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and sprite animation which just changes which sprite is drawn |
| 07:23 | <@peter1138> | Oh, yeah, you can use a larger texture and just map the bit you want onto the object, though I imagine that's not used much these days. |
| 07:24 | <argoneus> | oh :< |
| 07:24 | <@peter1138> | Ok, so we can use shaders to implement palette animation. That does mean we have to redraw the whole scene every frame. |
| 07:24 | <@peter1138> | I would suggest changing to an event-based model. |
| 07:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: may as well just make the whole game 3D then :p |
| 07:26 | <@peter1138> | Split the scenery up into chunks, each chunk is a display list (or whatever the latest least deprecated feature is now) |
| 07:26 | <@peter1138> | When a tileloop is processed and a tile changes, update that chunk. |
| 07:26 | <@peter1138> | Then you can just render the chunks |
| 07:26 | <@peter1138> | Then... |
| 07:26 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, exactly. |
| 07:27 | <liq3> | sorry, playing a game, talk later. |
| 07:27 | <argoneus> | dat cop out |
| 07:27 | <@peter1138> | Ok, expert. |
| 07:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what would we ever do without expert |
| 07:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | s |
| 07:28 | <argoneus> | anyway |
| 07:28 | <argoneus> | if I write up some sort of tutorial, can I get some constructive feedback from you guys? |
| 07:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | like every newspaper that employs "terror experts" these days |
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| 07:29 | <argoneus> | hm, there is a tutorial |
| 07:29 | <argoneus> | but it's rather lengthy |
| 07:31 | <@peter1138> | Hmm, did the signal UI default to only path signals yet? |
| 07:31 | <argoneus> | when? |
| 07:31 | <@peter1138> | That was a question. |
| 07:32 | <argoneus> | I know |
| 07:32 | <argoneus> | but you said "did it do X yet" |
| 07:32 | <argoneus> | and I |
| 07:32 | <argoneus> | m wondering how long ago you mean |
| 07:32 | <argoneus> | by yet |
| 07:32 | <@peter1138> | Ever. |
| 07:32 | <argoneus> | doesn't it default now? |
| 07:33 | <@peter1138> | Hmm, I think it can only show all signals. |
| 07:33 | <argoneus> | ohh, like that |
| 07:33 | <argoneus> | that no other signal is available? |
| 07:34 | <@planetmaker> | peter1138, it shows all signals. But there's a setting to cycle through path signals or all signals when ctrl+clicking |
| 07:35 | <@peter1138> | Hmm, default bus doesn't have enough power to reach top speed. |
| 07:35 | <@peter1138> | (Foster MKII Superbus) |
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| 07:36 | <V453000> | realistic acceleration for RVs doesnt make sense in general |
| 07:36 | <@peter1138> | Wonder where those default power values came from... |
| 07:36 | <@planetmaker> | peter1138, I believe they were made up from thin air |
| 07:37 | <@peter1138> | V453000, how so? |
| 07:37 | <V453000> | RVs are no trains, they need to slow down on hills, they need to slow down in curves etc |
| 07:37 | <V453000> | if they dont do that, there is nothing interesting about them, they dont have any problem to solve |
| 07:37 | <@peter1138> | Huh? |
| 07:37 | <V453000> | their slowing in curves with realistic acceleation is almost none |
| 07:38 | <V453000> | uphill is similar |
| 07:38 | <V453000> | even with 10% |
| 07:38 | <V453000> | vs. the slow acceleration |
| 07:38 | <V453000> | RVs have no means to solve the bad acceleration, the player cant do anything about it or invent a method to improve that |
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| 07:40 | <argoneus> | so |
| 07:40 | <argoneus> | do PBS let trains reserve paths until the next signal or until the destination? |
| 07:41 | <@peter1138> | Signal, in general. |
| 07:41 | <@planetmaker> | trains decide on a new path when they reach any junction |
| 07:41 | <@planetmaker> | and reserve paths at signals |
| 07:42 | <@peter1138> | I don't think anything should be using the term "PBS" though. |
| 07:43 | <@peter1138> | I'm so glad we removed the old PBS before release :D |
| 07:43 | <@planetmaker> | :) |
| 07:44 | <@peter1138> | planetmaker, was that before your time? |
| 07:44 | <@planetmaker> | yup |
| 07:44 | <@planetmaker> | I started between 0.4.5 and 0.5.3 |
| 07:45 | <@planetmaker> | but really only got into things when 0.5.3 was around |
| 07:46 | <@peter1138> | It was "funny" because we'd waited so long (well, it seemed like it at the time) to have PBS in, and it was there for a while... then we decided to remove it fairly soon before release. Just like that, heh. |
| 07:46 | <@peter1138> | It was pretty broken though, and never fixed the two-way station problem. |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | I heard similar a few times. But I actually never tested that first incarnation |
| 07:47 | <@peter1138> | It was beautiful when it worked... |
| 07:47 | <@peter1138> | No where near as elegant as path signals are though. |
| 07:48 | <@peter1138> | It broke the promise that trains would never crash if you didn't mess with layout. |
| 07:48 | <@planetmaker> | :) |
| 07:49 | <@planetmaker> | that's basically what killed it, I guess |
| 07:49 | <@peter1138> | That would be what V453000 calls a BAD FEATURE |
| 07:50 | <@planetmaker> | :P |
| 08:00 | <liq3> | peter1138: Games frequently have character models with 50,000+ polys. :/ |
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| 08:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: but maybe like 100 textures |
| 08:18 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: the entire thing is textured. The GPU has to map the texture to the 50k+ polygons in '3d' space. |
| 08:18 | <liq3> | There is no way drawing a few thousand 2d sprites is harder. :P |
| 08:19 | <argoneus> | it depends on your engine |
| 08:19 | <liq3> | Yes. I'm talking about properly coded GPU usage. |
| 08:19 | <V453000> | why are you guys discussing this when openttd will never get 3D engine anyway :D |
| 08:20 | <liq3> | peter1138 and Eddi|zuHause were insisting OpenGL wouldn't fix the lag problems. :< |
| 08:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: but there are still only 100 different textures |
| 08:20 | <argoneus> | what lag problems |
| 08:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | instead of 10000 |
| 08:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or 100000 |
| 08:20 | <liq3> | argoneus: load up PGZ2013 and zoom all the way out. :p |
| 08:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that is 3 orders of magnitude |
| 08:20 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: it's really irrelevant to a GPU :/ |
| 08:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no it's not |
| 08:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there's a bottleneck getting all this data to the GPU and stuff |
| 08:21 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: You can probably just load every single sprite into VRAM when you load a save. |
| 08:21 | <argoneus> | can you really |
| 08:22 | <argoneus> | you do realize |
| 08:22 | <liq3> | Even YETI is only 110mb, and that's 32bpp. |
| 08:22 | <argoneus> | when you have any sort of animation in 3d |
| 08:22 | <argoneus> | it's not the textures that are changing |
| 08:22 | <argoneus> | but with sprites |
| 08:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: but that is 110 COMPRESSED mb |
| 08:22 | <argoneus> | you have a different sprite for every animation |
| 08:22 | <liq3> | argoneus: Yes. There's ways to implement sprite animation with 3d hardware. |
| 08:22 | <argoneus> | so for every possible sprite, and every possible animation it has |
| 08:22 | <argoneus> | you'd need to store that on your video memory |
| 08:23 | <@peter1138> | I've got enough video memory. |
| 08:23 | <@peter1138> | But I'd have to stop playing it on my laptop. |
| 08:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: again, there HAVE been opengl implementations, they ALL turned out SLOWER than what we have now. |
| 08:24 | <liq3> | argoneus: You'd probably have sprite sheets (a single texture you only draw some of), or individual textuser for each sprite frame. |
| 08:24 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: how were they implemented? |
| 08:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | because the CPU is busier shoving all this data onto the GPU than it would be just handling it by itself |
| 08:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: look it up? |
| 08:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: it's all buried in the forum somewhere, or the chat logs |
| 08:26 | <argoneus> | I can't believe people are complaining about the performance of a game that runs on a pentium II |
| 08:26 | <@peter1138> | coo, 2008 :) |
| 08:26 | <liq3> | I don't really care, it's just a minor annoyance. |
| 08:27 | <argoneus> | I mean |
| 08:27 | <argoneus> | this game runs on a fucking phone |
| 08:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | phones nowadays have way more processing power than a pentium II |
| 08:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | although when i first got TT, my 386-SX 25 had problems with more than like 10 trains... |
| 08:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | when i got to 80 trains (maximum), it was like 0.5 fps |
| 08:31 | <@peter1138> | Bet you wish it had GPU acceleration. |
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| 08:31 | <@peter1138> | *wished |
| 08:31 | <Pikkaphone> | if wishes were fishes we'd all get wet |
| 08:31 | <@peter1138> | Possibly the 32bpp remapping algorithm could be done with shaders now. |
| 08:32 | <@peter1138> | That's a lot of new code though. |
| 08:32 | <@peter1138> | Someone will want particle effects... |
| 08:32 | <liq3> | lol. |
| 08:32 | <liq3> | Make the smoke particle effects. particle effects for the brakes. :D |
| 08:33 | <@peter1138> | Then someone will complain that it's OpenGL instead of DirectX11... |
| 08:34 | <@peter1138> | There's a game I play where they have JUST updated the engine to use DirectX9 and Shader Model 2 shaders. |
| 08:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikkaphone: one of the monkey island games had a "fishing well" |
| 08:34 | <@peter1138> | Previously it was DirectX 8 and presumably whatever shaders that supports. |
| 08:34 | <Pikkaphone> | surely making openttd full 3d would be really easy to do? |
| 08:34 | <liq3> | OpenGL is better just for being cross platform. |
| 08:34 | <Pikkaphone> | just map the pixels to a 3d engine |
| 08:34 | <liq3> | Pikkaphone: not likely. I'm going to check the source code soon just to find out tho. |
| 08:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikkaphone: yes, just install train fever. |
| 08:34 | <@peter1138> | And so... there are now complaints from people whose computers can no longer run it. |
| 08:35 | <@peter1138> | Because they're using 2004 graphics cards that worked fine before. |
| 08:35 | <liq3> | Pikkaphone: also, if you mean 3d models, that would be huge amounts of work. |
| 08:35 | <@peter1138> | Pikkaphone, we got a live one :D |
| 08:35 | <Pikkaphone> | yikes :) |
| 08:35 | <argoneus> | make openttd support 3d glasses |
| 08:36 | <argoneus> | I want to see trains in my room |
| 08:36 | <@planetmaker> | asking for oculus rift support is an old feature request ;) |
| 08:36 | <@peter1138> | 3D glasses for a game with orthogonal projection... |
| 08:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yeah, about a week old :p |
| 08:36 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause, nah, surely several months |
| 08:36 | <argoneus> | planetmaker: was that a "hehe xD" request |
| 08:36 | <argoneus> | or was it serious |
| 08:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: didn't see that |
| 08:37 | <Pikkaphone> | if it was andythenorth making it, hard to tell |
| 08:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | [Freitag, 23. August 2013] [23:43:16] <__ln__> will there be support for oculus rift? |
| 08:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so over a year even |
| 08:38 | <Pikkaphone> | 3ds port? |
| 08:39 | <@peter1138> | Bin it. |
| 08:39 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|zuHause, 16 months: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=65990 |
| 08:40 | <argoneus> | lol |
| 08:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm not sure if i paid more than 10 seconds of attention to that thread back then :p |
| 08:41 | <@planetmaker> | I did as long as I typed the answer. Maybe 15 seconds? |
| 08:43 | <V453000> | just shows what kind of idiots visits tt-f :D |
| 08:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: that certainly wasn't in my mind anymore when i learned what an oculus rift actually is |
| 08:44 | <@planetmaker> | I recon oculus rift was a thing already then. dunno anymore, though |
| 08:44 | <argoneus> | when oculus rift started being a thing |
| 08:45 | <argoneus> | it was all porn and horror |
| 08:45 | <argoneus> | is openttd either of those? |
| 08:45 | <V453000> | yes both |
| 08:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | certainly |
| 08:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i always get scared when PBI plays this explosion sound |
| 08:46 | <@planetmaker> | sure |
| 08:46 | <Pikkaphone> | boom |
| 08:46 | <@planetmaker> | the horror of glitching sprites, wrong stats and the porn of long vehicles uncensored version |
| 08:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that is clearly one of the worst BAD FEATURES of all times :p |
| 08:47 | <V453000> | trains going in and out of tunnels |
| 08:47 | <@planetmaker> | omg! |
| 08:47 | <V453000> | quite explicit |
| 08:47 | <V453000> | even worse, some of them are slugs |
| 08:48 | <@peter1138> | if your trains glitch going into tunnels, your offsets are probably wrong |
| 08:49 | <@peter1138> | or you're using zbase, although that's just the same reason really. |
| 08:49 | <argoneus> | zbase is art |
| 08:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or these czech tunnels |
| 08:49 | <argoneus> | oi |
| 08:49 | <@peter1138> | zbase is crap sorry |
| 08:49 | <Pikkaphone> | http://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/2i1hky/full_load_any_cargo_not_working_on_aircraft/ |
| 08:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "art" does not automatically mean "good" |
| 08:49 | <Pikkaphone> | can anyone be bothered giving the real answer? |
| 08:50 | <@peter1138> | Pikkaphone, no |
| 08:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikkaphone: planes are special cased to ignore mail |
| 08:50 | <Pikkaphone> | I know that, eddi |
| 08:50 | <Pikkaphone> | fair enough, peeter |
| 08:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that is the real answer? |
| 08:50 | <Pikkaphone> | yes |
| 08:51 | <@peter1138> | Allocating 2.00GiB of spritecache failed... |
| 08:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, then i'm certainly not bothered :) |
| 08:51 | <@peter1138> | Hmm, but it's only set to 512 :S |
| 08:51 | <Pikkaphone> | zbase is what it is |
| 08:51 | <@planetmaker> | peter1138, I think the limit for it in OpenTTD is that, 512M? |
| 08:52 | <@planetmaker> | hm... but why 2G then? |
| 08:52 | <Pikkaphone> | as a starting point for 32bpp, it's fine |
| 08:52 | <@peter1138> | planetmaker, I didn't ask it to allocate 2GB. |
| 08:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe it's multiplied by 4 for 32bpp? |
| 08:52 | <@peter1138> | planetmaker, does it x4? |
| 08:52 | <@planetmaker> | peter1138, what? zbase? yes. |
| 08:52 | <@planetmaker> | it has 1x, 2x and 4x sprites |
| 08:52 | <@peter1138> | That's not what I aksed. |
| 08:52 | <@peter1138> | Or asked. |
| 08:52 | <argoneus> | do openttd sprites make heavy use of the alpha channel? |
| 08:52 | <argoneus> | for transparency |
| 08:52 | <@peter1138> | spritecache * 4 |
| 08:52 | <@peter1138> | not 4x zoom :S |
| 08:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: too little data. |
| 08:52 | <liq3> | planetmaker: does the blitter draw the entire scene and then just pass it to the framebuffer? |
| 08:53 | <argoneus> | Eddi|zuHause: too little data? |
| 08:53 | <@peter1138> | argoneus, every single ground tile has alpha. |
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| 08:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: most sprites have transparent pieces |
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| 08:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but it's either 0% or 100%, rarely anything in between |
| 08:53 | <argoneus> | how is transparency done in ttd? alpha channel or some solid color? |
| 08:53 | <@peter1138> | Nearly all vehicle sprites have alpha. |
| 08:53 | <argoneus> | that is then filtered out |
| 08:54 | <Pikkaphone> | alpha in 32bpp |
| 08:54 | <Pikkaphone> | the other in 8bpp |
| 08:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in 8bpp mode -> solid colour |
| 08:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in 32bpp mode -> alpha |
| 08:54 | <argoneus> | I bet you use magenta |
| 08:54 | <argoneus> | because everyone uses magenta for some reason |
| 08:54 | <@peter1138> | no, blue, but the palette is arbitrary. |
| 08:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no, it's usually represented as blue, but essentially it's colour index 0 |
| 08:54 | <@peter1138> | zbase recolours look shit too :( |
| 08:55 | <argoneus> | so 0 0 255 is transparent always? |
| 08:55 | <V453000> | I have no idae how to make recolours in 32bpp |
| 08:55 | <@peter1138> | no, only index 0 |
| 08:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no |
| 08:55 | <Pikkaphone> | I have an idea |
| 08:55 | <@planetmaker> | ! |
| 08:55 | <argoneus> | oh |
| 08:55 | <Pikkaphone> | but I don't do it |
| 08:55 | <argoneus> | pallete |
| 08:55 | <argoneus> | right |
| 08:55 | <argoneus> | palette* |
| 08:55 | <V453000> | myeah |
| 08:56 | <V453000> | I would like to have at least some details CC-able |
| 08:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | V453000: you need some overlay mask |
| 08:56 | <@peter1138> | V453000, basically you make a sprite containing just the recolour parts |
| 08:56 | <@planetmaker> | V453000, look at the water in pota-ghat :) |
| 08:56 | <Pikkaphone> | is fairly well documented, innit? |
| 08:56 | <@peter1138> | then you make it 8bpp and use the recolour indices |
| 08:57 | <@peter1138> | then you adjust brightness on the 32bpp sprite underneath the mask to adjust brightness of the recolour part |
| 08:57 | <@peter1138> | simple ;) |
| 08:57 | <V453000> | ._. |
| 08:57 | <V453000> | k |
| 08:57 | <Pikkaphone> | the alternative is making separate sprites for each cc, which is a silly idea |
| 08:57 | <V453000> | XD |
| 08:57 | <V453000> | grfsize x16 ftw |
| 08:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yeah, NUTS! |
| 08:57 | <Pikkaphone> | snowballs the size of the grf |
| 08:57 | <@peter1138> | Pikkaphone, very silly |
| 08:58 | <@peter1138> | Pikkaphone, and the hue is wrong! |
| 08:58 | <@peter1138> | Pikkaphone, and it doesn't support RGB recolours! |
| 08:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikkaphone: well, there are grfs out there that are 50% recolour masks :p |
| 08:58 | <V453000> | fuck RGB recolours where did they go |
| 08:58 | <@peter1138> | i have them here |
| 08:58 | <@peter1138> | did you want them? |
| 08:58 | <V453000> | want |
| 08:58 | <V453000> | amazing feature |
| 08:58 | <@planetmaker> | Pikkaphone, can one actually query the CC instead of the companyID? |
| 08:59 | <Pikkaphone> | yes planetmaker |
| 08:59 | <Pikkaphone> | it's how the liveries in pineapple work |
| 08:59 | <@planetmaker> | oh |
| 08:59 | <Pikkaphone> | also, eg, the boxcars in nars |
| 09:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikkaphone: did you change the colour names to livery names? :) |
| 09:00 | <Pikkaphone> | nope |
| 09:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't think anyone ever used that feature, since it was introduced... |
| 09:00 | <@peter1138> | damn zbase vehicles being too big :S |
| 09:01 | <@peter1138> | ? |
| 09:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the one company colour GRF out there was never updated to touch the colour names |
| 09:02 | <Pikkaphone> | also the hue is *different*, not wrong. :p |
| 09:05 | <Pikkaphone> | I certainly wouldn't describe zbase's colour mapping as 'right' |
| 09:06 | <@peter1138> | No, it's not. |
| 09:06 | <@peter1138> | I suspect it falls foul of just using one of the remap colours. |
| 09:07 | <@peter1138> | And just like good CC with 8bpp, you need to use all of them to make good 32bpp CC. |
| 09:07 | <@peter1138> | This is probably quite tricky to do in a sane way with a 3D renderer though. |
| 09:08 | <@peter1138> | It doesn't help that the CC elements in zBase are really really chunky. |
| 09:09 | <Flygon> | Is there any TBRS set that's actually compatible with UKRS? |
| 09:10 | <Pikkaphone> | what's a tbrs? |
| 09:10 | <Flygon> | Total Bridge Renewal Set |
| 09:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what kind of "compatible" do you mean? |
| 09:11 | <@peter1138> | What makes a bridge set compatible with a train set? |
| 09:11 | <Flygon> | Oh, UK Road Se |
| 09:11 | <Flygon> | Sorry, I forgot ambiguity x.x |
| 09:11 | <Flygon> | Eddi: Asthetically |
| 09:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: there are TBRS versions for a handful of road sets buried in the forum somewhere |
| 09:12 | <Flygon> | Yeah, I've been trying to find x.x |
| 09:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but quite honestly, bridge sets caused me to stick with the default roads. |
| 09:13 | <Flygon> | Ach x.x |
| 09:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | they're not terrible, and consistency is more important to me. |
| 09:13 | <Flygon> | I never liked the default roads |
| 09:13 | <Flygon> | Long story short... FINALLY want to do a game with the Dutch road furnature |
| 09:14 | <Flygon> | If I can't get that working tho, may's well use the US Road Set |
| 09:17 | <Flygon> | Closest I can find is a modified PCX... but I don't know how to recompile the GRFs for OTTD |
| 09:17 | <Flygon> | And I doubt the Ragnarok Online recompilers I have are very useful |
| 09:17 | <Flygon> | Eh, screwit |
| 09:18 | <Flygon> | America time |
| 09:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | grfcodec -d and grfcodec -e |
| 09:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if the offsets are the same, it shouldn't be hard |
| 09:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | make sure you change the GRFID |
| 09:19 | <argoneus> | you guys are making me to actually want to try make a newgrf |
| 09:19 | <argoneus> | but I can't into drawing or modelling |
| 09:19 | <argoneus> | :< |
| 09:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i can't either. hasn't stopped me. |
| 09:20 | <Flygon> | Aw man |
| 09:20 | <Flygon> | Now I feel guilty for never finishing the Comeng |
| 09:20 | <Flygon> | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/comengopenttd.png Been meaning to redo this in voxel form |
| 09:20 | <Flygon> | Because like... |
| 09:20 | <Flygon> | Melbourne has EMUs too :U |
| 09:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | use pixeltool |
| 09:21 | <Flygon> | richardwheeler.net? |
| 09:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if that is what the adress is... |
| 09:22 | <argoneus> | Eddi|zuHause: what kind of newgrfs did you make? |
| 09:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: the kind where trains have overlength and many turning angles |
| 09:22 | <argoneus> | also is pixeltool some actual software or do you just mean make pixels |
| 09:23 | <argoneus> | Eddi|zuHause: oh you make NARS? |
| 09:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: find it in the forum |
| 09:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: no |
| 09:23 | <argoneus> | is it not in bananas? |
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| 09:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | https://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/push/LATEST/ |
| 09:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's not released |
| 09:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | due to... missing graphics :p |
| 09:24 | <Flygon> | Arf, I need to work on being able to visualize 3D in my head x.x |
| 09:24 | <Flygon> | I need to get myself some lego bricks |
| 09:25 | <argoneus> | Game running cost (AS): =WENN(ODER((traction_type="Electric");(traction_type="Electric/Narrow");(AC9="3rd Rail");(AC9="Dual Power")); (($AM$604*pow(($N9/$AO$604);$AP$604))*pow(($O9/$AO$605);$AP$605)); |
| 09:25 | <argoneus> | lol |
| 09:25 | <argoneus> | is this some excel formula |
| 09:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, but where did you find that? |
| 09:25 | <argoneus> | in the thing you linked? |
| 09:26 | <argoneus> | I was looking for screenshots :< |
| 09:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | is that shown ingame? |
| 09:26 | <argoneus> | no |
| 09:26 | <argoneus> | I'm at work |
| 09:26 | <argoneus> | I can't play ttd |
| 09:26 | <argoneus> | hm |
| 09:27 | <argoneus> | seems like pixel art is more about calculating than drawing |
| 09:28 | <V453000> | no just being a fucking liar and pretending there are shapes that the eyes see, but the shapes dont exist in the image |
| 09:28 | <V453000> | all it takes really :) |
| 09:28 | <argoneus> | so I don't need to be able to draw realistic faces to make a pixel art car? |
| 09:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | not really |
| 09:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it may even be counter productive |
| 09:29 | <V453000> | yeah |
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| 09:29 | <V453000> | you totally dont need to do that |
| 09:29 | <V453000> | I cant do that for shit |
| 09:30 | <argoneus> | so for one train |
| 09:30 | <argoneus> | you need |
| 09:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/1990/Hawthorn___Co.__6._Okt_1922.png |
| 09:30 | <argoneus> | 4 sprites? |
| 09:30 | <V453000> | 8 |
| 09:30 | <argoneus> | up, down, diagonal, symmetry? |
| 09:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or 24 :) |
| 09:30 | <V453000> | well usually 5 then |
| 09:30 | <argoneus> | 5 then |
| 09:30 | <juzza1> | 10.5 |
| 09:31 | <V453000> | up, down, side, diagonal, other diagonal |
| 09:31 | <V453000> | for non-symmetric trains |
| 09:31 | <argoneus> | looks nice Eddi|zuHause |
| 09:31 | <argoneus> | can you draw a human bod |
| 09:31 | <argoneus> | body* |
| 09:31 | <argoneus> | ? |
| 09:31 | <V453000> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/repository/entry/gfx/SLUGwtf2.png |
| 09:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i did not draw those vehicles, oberhümer did. but he didn't finish all vehicles. the unfinished one are just coloured boxes |
| 09:32 | <V453000> | oberhumer draws terribly |
| 09:32 | <V453000> | nutracks are something so ugly that it doesnt have equal |
| 09:33 | <argoneus> | that slug |
| 09:33 | <argoneus> | has nice shading |
| 09:33 | <argoneus> | wait |
| 09:33 | <argoneus> | so when you guys do pixel art |
| 09:33 | <argoneus> | you don't make a large picture which you then resize |
| 09:33 | <argoneus> | you make a small picture and zoom in? |
| 09:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that image crashes the browser |
| 09:34 | <V453000> | obviously, yes, you draw with 1600% zoom |
| 09:34 | <V453000> | or around that |
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| 09:34 | <V453000> | it is quite small Eddi |
| 09:34 | <V453000> | got a lot bigger ones |
| 09:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's not about the size |
| 09:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i can view it, but when i try to zoom, it crashes |
| 09:35 | <V453000> | doesnt crash my browser |
| 09:35 | <V453000> | ah |
| 09:35 | <V453000> | well I didnt try that |
| 09:37 | <argoneus> | try this picture |
| 09:37 | <argoneus> | http://home.arcor.de/slxviper/8367_7835_48-square.gif |
| 09:37 | <V453000> | gay |
| 09:37 | <V453000> | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/SLUG%20NEST%2C%202141-08-23.png |
| 09:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no idea what that's supposed to be |
| 09:38 | <V453000> | Eddi|zuHause: I dont understand what it is supposed to be -> it is gay |
| 09:38 | <argoneus> | are you using linux |
| 09:38 | <V453000> | NO |
| 09:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | V453000: that just looks terrible, does not crash :p |
| 09:38 | <V453000> | :) |
| 09:38 | <argoneus> | oh |
| 09:38 | <argoneus> | on linux |
| 09:39 | <argoneus> | it starts eating your memory |
| 09:39 | <argoneus> | then you get thrashing |
| 09:39 | <argoneus> | and then X crashes |
| 09:39 | <argoneus> | at least it did a while ago, maybe they fixed it |
| 09:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | only if you do it wrong |
| 09:39 | <@peter1138> | argoneus, if you resized a large image down, it would not be pixel art. |
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| 09:40 | <argoneus> | but that slug thing |
| 09:40 | <argoneus> | it has nice shading |
| 09:40 | <argoneus> | I don't understand shading |
| 09:40 | <argoneus> | :( |
| 09:40 | <argoneus> | is there a consensus where the light comes from in openttd? |
| 09:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the consensus is that different people have different consensuses |
| 09:41 | <@peter1138> | Yes, it comes from the sky. |
| 09:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and the consensus of the other people is always wrong |
| 09:41 | <argoneus> | b-b-but |
| 09:41 | <argoneus> | so people shade their things from different directions? |
| 09:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but mostly it comes either from the right, or from the lower right |
| 09:41 | <@planetmaker> | 4:30h to 5:00 is the usual light direction. But it differs somewhat, depending on where you look |
| 09:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | except when it doesn't |
| 09:42 | <@peter1138> | Let's make everything out of voxels. |
| 09:42 | <@peter1138> | Then apply real-time lighting. |
| 09:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | sometimes it's changed purely for artistic reasons |
| 09:42 | <@planetmaker> | but that direction usually gives best look |
| 09:42 | <liq3> | ew voxel.s |
| 09:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there was something recently about one of MB's train sheds being "wrong" |
| 09:42 | <@peter1138> | cubicals? |
| 09:42 | <argoneus> | okay |
| 09:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | cubicles! |
| 09:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | cubicles disturb me very |
| 09:43 | <@planetmaker> | it reminds me of the missing undo-knob |
| 09:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | undo-knob would be fun... makes you single-step through all tree changes of the past second :p |
| 09:45 | <@peter1138> | Yeah, add ^Z, ^X, ^C and ^V support... |
| 09:46 | <@peter1138> | copy & paste, for people who don't like playing the game. |
| 09:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in all the years i played with patchpacks that had C&P in them, i have never ever once found a use for it... |
| 09:46 | <liq3> | Because making the same terminal station setup over and over is "playing the game". |
| 09:47 | <@peter1138> | exactly! |
| 09:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ... or maybe a DIFFERENT terminal station setup? |
| 09:48 | <Flygon> | Ach. What was the option to show how far station's capture population again? |
| 09:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | new challenge: play a game without using the terraforming tool |
| 09:48 | <Flygon> | Ever since I reformatted the desktop, OTTD has been a mess |
| 09:48 | <Flygon> | Forgot the configuration is not stored in where OTTD is stored because... OTTD |
| 09:49 | <@peter1138> | Because operating systems are multiuser these days. |
| 09:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: all modern games store data in the personal directory |
| 09:49 | <Flygon> | This shows how often I play modern games, then |
| 09:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you don't back that up, it's your own problem... |
| 09:49 | <Flygon> | OTTD is the only game that has ever exhibited this behaviour that I've used O_o |
| 09:50 | <Flygon> | And I've often deliberately avoided using those directories since I was a kid anyway x.x |
| 09:50 | <Flygon> | I'm... weird x.x |
| 09:50 | <Flygon> | But, yeah |
| 09:50 | <Flygon> | Forgot how to show the capture graphics |
| 09:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | those directories didn't exist when i was a kid... |
| 09:50 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: why would I make a DIFFERENT one? :o |
| 09:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | liq3: because the one you had doesn't fit the map? |
| 09:50 | <Flygon> | Either way, I've always found them confusing |
| 09:51 | <Flygon> | To me, all game stuff goes in game directory, not in some unrelated directory :P |
| 09:51 | <argoneus> | where are the times |
| 09:51 | <argoneus> | when you could build a road over someone else's railroad, then delete the road, and railroad was gone too |
| 09:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: modern OSes prevent you from changing anything in "the game directory", because viruses and stuff would do that... |
| 09:51 | <Flygon> | ... |
| 09:52 | <Flygon> | And how the heck are they suppose to run practically everything written before 2007? |
| 09:52 | <argoneus> | Flygon: everything modern has config somewhere |
| 09:52 | <argoneus> | appdata, documents, ~/.config ~/.programname |
| 09:52 | <argoneus> | some programs have data in the windows registry! |
| 09:52 | <@peter1138> | Flygon, that's why so many shit games need you to run as administrator... |
| 09:52 | <Flygon> | peter1138: Good point |
| 09:52 | <Flygon> | Ach, it just... |
| 09:52 | <Flygon> | It just ruins me |
| 09:53 | <Flygon> | I was never taught this way, never raised this way |
| 09:53 | <Flygon> | And to me, it makes utterly no sense |
| 09:53 | <argoneus> | the reddit client saves data in its own directory |
| 09:53 | <argoneus> | you can see how they did it |
| 09:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: that's a compile option |
| 09:53 | <argoneus> | o-oh |
| 09:53 | <argoneus> | of course it is |
| 09:53 | <argoneus> | fug |
| 09:54 | <@peter1138> | There's a reddit client? I just use my webbrowser. |
| 09:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or alternatively, where your openttd.cfg is |
| 09:54 | <argoneus> | peter1138: you play ttd in firefox? |
| 09:54 | <Flygon> | And I still can't find the station capture display option x.x |
| 09:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: i assumed he meant the reddit-community's openttd patchpack |
| 09:54 | <argoneus> | Flygon: what is station capture? |
| 09:55 | <Flygon> | Where it shows the blue tiles where the station is being built |
| 09:55 | <Flygon> | And the white tiles where it captures the houses/apartments |
| 09:55 | <Flygon> | Or industry |
| 09:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Flygon: there's a button in the build station window |
| 09:55 | <Flygon> | ... |
| 09:55 | <Flygon> | ... |
| 09:55 | <Flygon> | Okay, well |
| 09:55 | <Flygon> | I feel dumb. |
| 09:55 | <argoneus> | are you new to the game? |
| 09:55 | <Flygon> | I was trawling everywhere in the advanced settings x.x |
| 09:55 | <Flygon> | New to the game? |
| 09:56 | <argoneus> | yes |
| 09:56 | <Flygon> | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/ottddenvercomplex.png |
| 09:56 | <Flygon> | No x3 |
| 09:56 | <Flygon> | Just arrogant |
| 09:56 | <argoneus> | that ship what the fuck |
| 09:56 | <argoneus> | is this europa universalis |
| 09:56 | <argoneus> | no.. is this anno? |
| 09:57 | <Flygon> | Nope |
| 09:57 | <Flygon> | I've just got poor taste in asthetics |
| 09:57 | <argoneus> | oh |
| 09:57 | <argoneus> | no |
| 09:57 | <argoneus> | it's ok |
| 09:57 | * | argoneus afk hour |
| 09:59 | <Flygon> | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/iceland2041cloverleaf.png Still find of sad I lost the .sav because I assumed the .savs were in the OpenTTD folder instead of the My Documents folder, hahaha |
| 09:59 | <Flygon> | Over 47 games lost :D |
| 10:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | just restore it from your extensive backups |
| 10:02 | <Flygon> | I'm an idiot that stores everything on his desktop that would be considered backup worthy then saves the entire desktop :P |
| 10:03 | <Flygon> | I assumed too much over games using the /save/ folder in their root, due to the other games I play usually being AoEII, CivII, or, whatever :B |
| 10:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, that would be different if you played AoE III, Civ IV, or, whatever... |
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| 10:04 | <Flygon> | Hated them both |
| 10:04 | <Flygon> | Well, actually, never played IV |
| 10:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and Civ II is not 2007, more like 1997 |
| 10:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i couldn't get Civ II to run in wine... |
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| 10:05 | <Flygon> | Uhn... |
| 10:05 | <Flygon> | Wait, which Civ II? |
| 10:05 | <Flygon> | There's the MPG and Classic |
| 10:05 | <Flygon> | Linux user? |
| 10:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what's MPG? |
| 10:06 | <Flygon> | 32-bit Civ II |
| 10:06 | <Flygon> | Basically |
| 10:06 | <Flygon> | Multiplayer Gold |
| 10:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | probably not that |
| 10:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | last time i tried, it started up, but quickly sound got corrupted and then it crashed |
| 10:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | anyway, i probably would get fed up with the ancient game rules within 10 minutes and stop |
| 10:08 | <Flygon> | Eh |
| 10:08 | <Flygon> | I do |
| 10:09 | <Flygon> | That's why I do Alpha Centauri :B |
| 10:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | like when i tried to play freeciv |
| 10:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | let's see whether this new alpha centauri will be good... |
| 10:09 | <Flygon> | I already gave up |
| 10:09 | <Flygon> | On 'Beyond Earth' |
| 10:09 | <Flygon> | Which is annoying |
| 10:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | sounded like it's based on civ5 |
| 10:09 | <Pikka> | peter1138, people who don't like playing the game should go and write AIs to play it for them |
| 10:10 | <Pikka> | that's my plan |
| 10:10 | <Flygon> | Because both my Ex and my Father are constantly yabbering on about how it's going to be awesome |
| 10:10 | <Flygon> | But the asthetic direction already has me convinced it'll be multiple explicatives |
| 10:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | whatever... civ5 looked weird like that at first as well |
| 10:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but i still found it enjoyable |
| 10:11 | <Flygon> | Lack V on my Steam |
| 10:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i didn't play alpha centauri nearly as much as civ2 |
| 10:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which is mainly because my monitor was too dark, and the colour correction disabled itself when switching to 16bit colours |
| 10:13 | <Flygon> | Hmm |
| 10:14 | <Flygon> | It should've been possible to modify the base palette |
| 10:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | running "windowed" mode would have sufficed |
| 10:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but that didn't seem to have been an option back then |
| 10:14 | <Flygon> | I forgot if they've figured out how to modify the game to do that yet |
| 10:15 | <Flygon> | I still gotta figure out IF palette modification is possible |
| 10:15 | <Flygon> | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/SMACX/ChinaDomination/crawlersareop.png The default palette is awful for modding |
| 10:16 | <@peter1138> | I've got V on Steam, but... Civ and Civ 2 were the best. |
| 10:16 | <@peter1138> | Maybe I should install Win95 in a VM for Civ 2? :D |
| 10:17 | <Flygon> | Shame I and II'll never get Steamed or GOG'd |
| 10:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | my civ1 got corrupted at some point because someone tried to patch the german .exe with an english patch |
| 10:17 | <Flygon> | Steam'll never happen because... they lost the source code and borf |
| 10:17 | <Flygon> | And GoG because... GoG |
| 10:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what's wrong with GoG now? |
| 10:17 | <@peter1138> | Hmm... |
| 10:17 | <@peter1138> | There's always freeciv? ;( |
| 10:18 | <Flygon> | Eddi: Nothing's wrong with it |
| 10:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i played a civ4 mod called "planetfall", which was based on alpha centauri |
| 10:18 | <Flygon> | It's just that I doubt they'll ever release it on GoG |
| 10:19 | <@peter1138> | Hmm, I don't appear to have Civ any more :S |
| 10:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't, either... |
| 10:21 | <@peter1138> | Hmm, I've got civwin! |
| 10:22 | <@peter1138> | Which segfaults wine. |
| 10:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i have win 3.11 in dosbox |
| 10:24 | <@peter1138> | 8 bit 11 kHz sound effects :D |
| 10:24 | <Flygon> | Man |
| 10:24 | <Flygon> | I hear those figures |
| 10:24 | <Flygon> | And I think of those experiments with the Mega Drive... |
| 10:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the... what? |
| 10:25 | <Flygon> | Genesis |
| 10:25 | <Flygon> | 1988 hardware? |
| 10:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | we didn't have any hardware before 1989 |
| 10:26 | <Flygon> | Made Sonic the Hedgehog famous? |
| 10:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i've never played that |
| 10:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, i've never owned a console |
| 10:26 | <Flygon> | I'll ultra-simplify this |
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| 10:27 | <Flygon> | It was an Amiga that took cartridges and had an FM based sound system (and a DAC) instead of a sample based one |
| 10:27 | <Flygon> | Also it has a Z80 inside it |
| 10:27 | <Flygon> | Alongside the 68k, because... like, it has the letter Z in it |
| 10:27 | <Flygon> | And that's an extremely cool letter |
| 10:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i've never got into amiga either |
| 10:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | anyway, what's the point of this historic excourse? |
| 10:30 | <Xaroth|Work> | <3 Megadrive |
| 10:30 | <Flygon> | Eddi: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Gates%20to%20Infinity%20-%20Glacier%20Palace%20%28Great%20Spire%29.wav Long story short, got bored enough to make tracks able to be stuffed through a 1988 computer's DAC :U |
| 10:30 | <Xaroth|Work> | lol |
| 10:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm not clicking on that... |
| 10:31 | <Flygon> | You dislike orchistra hits? D: |
| 10:31 | <Xaroth|Work> | Flygon: ever played Rock'n'Roll Racing? |
| 10:31 | <Flygon> | Does it have orchistra hits? |
| 10:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | anyway, you mean like this "demo scene" that takes stuff rendered on modern computers and shoves it through ancient things like atari 2600? |
| 10:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (which is WAAAAY before my time) |
| 10:32 | <Xaroth|Work> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KusvcKJLCOg @Flygon |
| 10:32 | <Flygon> | That implies the demoscene doesn't know about thems procedural generationializationings |
| 10:33 | <Flygon> | Nah, you'd never get stuff like that .wav happening in, say, a Mega Drive demo |
| 10:33 | <Flygon> | Unless it was a wild contest entry anyway, and you don't mind paying for a good bank switcher... |
| 10:33 | <Flygon> | Then again |
| 10:34 | <Flygon> | The machine CAN address 10mbytes of flat ROM without the CD drive or the 32x... |
| 10:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that sentence makes no sense whatsoever |
| 10:34 | <Jinassi> | run this: http://conspiracy.hu/get/21/ |
| 10:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | may as well be describing a voodoo ceremony |
| 10:34 | <Flygon> | Xaroth: Sorry for the delay. On a more serious note, yep, I am familiar x3 |
| 10:35 | <Flygon> | Also apperantly the show's Finnish dub is brilliantly 90s |
| 10:37 | <Flygon> | Xaroth: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/04.wav I also put this through because I thought it'd be funny |
| 10:39 | <Flygon> | Never had Biker Mice as a kid, either way |
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| 10:58 | <Flygon> | Arf |
| 10:58 | <Flygon> | Sorry for being so... well |
| 10:59 | <Flygon> | Dumb, earlier |
| 10:59 | <Flygon> | Just been one of those evenings x.x |
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| 11:09 | <argoneus> | hello |
| 11:10 | <@Alberth> | o/ |
| 11:10 | <@planetmaker> | \o |
| 11:12 | <LordAro> | /o |
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| 11:16 | <@Alberth> | so we lost partially grass stages, apparently, I never noticed :) |
| 11:21 | <argoneus> | o\ |
| 11:23 | <@planetmaker> | did openttd loose that or just ogfx+landscape? |
| 11:24 | <@planetmaker> | actually, only the latter |
| 11:29 | <@Alberth> | :O any idea how that happened? |
| 11:30 | <@Rubidium> | obviously my patch to NML |
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| 11:33 | <@Alberth> | ah, not in opengfx+landscape itself thus, what I was thinking (and finding quite weird) |
| 11:33 | <@Rubidium> | Alberth: well... I'd be amazed if my patch did it ;) |
| 11:34 | <@Alberth> | :D |
| 11:34 | <@Rubidium> | especially since my patch was after the last nightly |
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| 11:44 | <@Alberth> | quak |
| 11:45 | <frosch123> | hai |
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| 11:53 | <@planetmaker> | Alberth, probably simply some c&p error in the sprite export scripts or so |
| 11:54 | <@planetmaker> | maybe I renamed a layer which I better had not renamed or so |
| 11:54 | -!- | FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd |
| 11:54 | <@planetmaker> | (or rename in further places, too) |
| 11:54 | <@peter1138> | Doesn't affect TTD graphics ;) |
| 11:55 | <@planetmaker> | pöh! :P |
| 11:55 | <@planetmaker> | nor actually zbase |
| 11:55 | <@peter1138> | might as well |
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| 12:22 | <Pokka> | what did you do? |
| 12:23 | <@peter1138> | Ate it. |
| 12:23 | <Pokka> | nom nom nom |
| 12:23 | <@planetmaker> | *burp* |
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| 12:25 | <Pokka> | http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/armstrongturbine/armstrng.htm |
| 12:25 | <Pokka> | BAD FEATURES |
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| 12:26 | -!- | Pokka is now known as Pikka |
| 12:28 | <Pikka> | "On 12 Nov 1922, 59mph was achieved pulling 65 tons, but the boiler pressure could not be got above 170psi (instead of the designed 200psi) and coal was burnt at the frightening rate of 40lb/mile. A conventional L&YR 4-6-0 could pull 400 tons at the same burn rate. Further runs took place on 13 May 1923, but the results were worse than even a standard 2-4-2 tank engine, and the machine was returned to Armstrong-Whitworth and wri |
| 12:28 | <Pikka> | tten off. " |
| 12:28 | <@Alberth> | looks awesome though :) |
| 12:28 | <Pikka> | someone (tm) should make a newgrf containing nothing but hilariously awful experimental vehicles |
| 12:29 | <V453000> | someone already made a newgrf with hilariously awful vehicles, is that enough? :P |
| 12:30 | <Pikka> | I don't know who you mean |
| 12:30 | <Pinkbeast> | Pikka: Mind you, there's no denying the honking great cowling on the back looks cool |
| 12:31 | <V453000> | no nuts |
| 12:32 | <Pinkbeast> | Also http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php/0-6-6-0_Leader would surely qualify |
| 12:32 | <Pikka> | eh, well |
| 12:33 | <Pikka> | at least in TTD terms the Leader is alright |
| 12:33 | <Pikka> | but the ramsey turbine would be slow, heavy, underpowered and very expensive. :D |
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| 12:34 | <@Rubidium> | ... and it would be cursing a lot? |
| 12:34 | <Pikka> | yes |
| 12:34 | <Pinkbeast> | There's that mad 6-2-0 Crampton built in an attempt to match the big engines on the broad gauge, too. "Liverpool" ? |
| 12:35 | <Pikka> | 19th century, which is in itself a bad feature :) |
| 12:35 | <Jinassi> | Would ER22 fit into that category? |
| 12:36 | <Pinkbeast> | I had fun with your 19th century stuff even if it's a bad feature. :-P |
| 12:37 | <Pinkbeast> | And that completely impractical Colani design for the USSR |
| 12:38 | <Pikka> | yep |
| 12:38 | <Pikka> | now we just need 'someone' to make the grf |
| 12:38 | <Pikka> | which nobody will want to use anyway :) |
| 12:42 | <@Alberth> | ha :p |
| 12:43 | <V453000> | downloaded my first palette file 12.7.2011 at 0:57 :D |
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| 12:47 | <@Alberth> | deleted all palettes last August? :) |
| 12:47 | <V453000> | it is 2013 Alberth :D |
| 12:47 | <V453000> | 2011 I started drawing NUTS |
| 12:48 | <V453000> | I mean 2014, not 2012 :P |
| 12:48 | <V453000> | anyway |
| 12:48 | <@Alberth> | :D |
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| 12:53 | <@peter1138> | DERP |
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| 13:10 | <Pinkbeast> | Oh, Brunel's pneumatic railway! You could have NuImpracticalTracks to go with impractical trains. |
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| 13:32 | <@DorpsGek> | Commit by rubidium :: r26945 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2014-10-02 17:32:45 UTC) |
| 13:32 | <@DorpsGek> | -Fix-ish: better scaling of the "cells" in which variety distribution happens for non-square maps (attempt to make reasonably square areas) |
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| 13:37 | <@Alberth> | hi hi |
| 13:38 | <Wolf01> | gwkki |
| 13:38 | <Wolf01> | *hello |
| 13:40 | <@Alberth> | :D |
| 13:40 | <@Alberth> | a case of a moved keyboard :) |
| 13:40 | <Wolf01> | happens :P |
| 13:40 | <@DorpsGek> | Commit by rubidium :: r26946 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2014-10-02 17:40:45 UTC) |
| 13:40 | <@DorpsGek> | -Fix (r26945): MSVC doesn't seem to have round yet |
| 13:40 | <@Alberth> | better than a weird keyboard remapping :) |
| 13:41 | <Wolf01> | such dworak |
| 13:41 | <@DorpsGek> | Commit by rubidium :: r26947 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-10-02 17:41:36 UTC) |
| 13:41 | <@DorpsGek> | -Fix [FS#6122, FS#6125]: textual improvements of the base "translation" |
| 13:45 | <@DorpsGek> | Commit by translators :: r26948 /trunk/src/lang (catalan.txt spanish.txt) (2014-10-02 17:45:22 UTC) |
| 13:45 | <@DorpsGek> | -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
| 13:45 | <@DorpsGek> | catalan - 2 changes by juanjo |
| 13:45 | <@DorpsGek> | spanish - 1 changes by SilverSurferZzZ |
| 13:45 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd |
| 13:45 | <Wolf01> | once upon a time, in a office far far away, I inverted the comma and dot keys of a keyboard of a coworker, he didn't notice until one day had to write a difficult password and looked at the keyboard, "I can't explain why the password doesn't work, I'm pressing all the right keys", his face was the most comic thing I've ever seen |
| 13:45 | <andythenorth> | once upon a time |
| 13:46 | <andythenorth> | someone in our office aliased ‘sudo’ to ‘shutdown -h now’ |
| 13:46 | <@planetmaker> | :D |
| 13:46 | <Wolf01> | that's always the right thing to do |
| 13:46 | <Wolf01> | if you aren't root, you must not do that thing |
| 13:46 | <@planetmaker> | hopefully sudo -> sudo shutdown -h now |
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| 13:47 | <@Alberth> | ubuntus tend to have user commands for such events :p |
| 13:48 | <@planetmaker> | I'm sure it was a bsd like system andy talked about :P |
| 13:49 | <andythenorth> | OS X |
| 13:49 | <@planetmaker> | yeah. bsd-like :P |
| 13:49 | <andythenorth> | it was in retaliation for some keyboard key swapping iirc |
| 13:49 | <andythenorth> | these things happen |
| 13:49 | <@planetmaker> | honestly, I probably wouldn't notice keyboard key swapping for a long time |
| 13:50 | <@planetmaker> | except if you moved f and / or j. Those are the keys with the small bump to find your way without looking |
| 13:50 | <@Alberth> | or until you make lots of typos :p |
| 13:50 | <@planetmaker> | well :) |
| 13:51 | <andythenorth> | or if I remapped your keys in software |
| 13:51 | <@planetmaker> | that's more evil :) |
| 13:51 | <Wolf01> | remapping a key to "ctrl + z" |
| 13:51 | <andythenorth> | also |
| 13:51 | <andythenorth> | what hap? |
| 13:52 | <andythenorth> | in the world of ottd? |
| 13:52 | <andythenorth> | Pikka bob is here? |
| 13:52 | <Pikka> | only sometimes |
| 13:52 | <andythenorth> | NARS 3 done? |
| 13:52 | <@Rubidium> | planetmaker: I immediately notice when they change the Y and Z on the keyboard that I use |
| 13:52 | <Pikka> | just finished diseasles |
| 13:52 | <@planetmaker> | Rubidium, the key or the mapping? :) |
| 13:52 | <andythenorth> | cabbages? |
| 13:52 | <@Rubidium> | planetmaker: *everything* |
| 13:53 | <Pikka> | no wagons of any description yet |
| 13:53 | <@Rubidium> | fracking German computers ;) |
| 13:53 | * | andythenorth wonders how much NARS 3 gets pillaged for Iron Horse |
| 13:53 | <@planetmaker> | :) |
| 13:53 | <+glx> | Rubidium: azerty is worse, you can't write proper french with it :) |
| 13:54 | <Pikka> | Dan was telling me of his plans for forty seven different American Horse rosters |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | 58 |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | 63 even |
| 13:54 | <@planetmaker> | the dutch keyboard layout actually is not that bad, but ... well :) azerty is much much worse ;) |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | many horse |
| 13:54 | <Pikka> | such horse |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | fortunately we are limited by IDs <16k |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | how handy |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | unless I reused them :P |
| 13:54 | <@planetmaker> | took me like 10 minutes to type in my password on a machine with that frigging keyboard layout |
| 13:54 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, your / key has a bump? :S |
| 13:54 | <@Rubidium> | planetmaker: the Dutch keyboard layout, or the layout that is used most often in the Netherlands (BIG difference) |
| 13:54 | <Pikka> | si |
| 13:55 | <@planetmaker> | Rubidium, I meant Dutch. Not necessarily 'most used' (dunno which, I guess US) |
| 13:55 | <Pikka> | I will get on with the elecketricks |
| 13:55 | * | andythenorth writes some tests before writing code |
| 13:55 | <andythenorth> | fancy |
| 13:55 | <andythenorth> | TDD |
| 13:55 | <Pikka> | and send it out for comments when locos are done |
| 13:55 | <andythenorth> | not TTD |
| 13:55 | <@Rubidium> | planetmaker: http://www.goodtyping.com/teclatDUTok.png ? |
| 13:56 | <V453000> | nmlc ERROR: Image file "gfx/8bpp/x1_COMPOSE_8bpp.png": Palette is not recognized as a valid palette. got this with https://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/1 photoshop-ttd-dos-noact.act - Photoshop palette DOS, no action colours (768 Bytes) Delete planetmaker, 2011-08-16 17:20 |
| 13:56 | <V453000> | is that possible? |
| 13:56 | <@Rubidium> | planetmaker: vs http://www.goodtyping.com/teclatUSok.png |
| 13:57 | <frosch123> | i hate the enter key on us keyboards :) |
| 13:57 | <frosch123> | i always type \ |
| 13:57 | <V453000> | me uses that :D |
| 13:57 | <V453000> | 104 key (with low enter) |
| 13:57 | <V453000> | -> I have a cat picture on the \ key |
| 13:58 | <V453000> | it is perfect |
| 13:58 | <Pikka> | V453000, there's a grfcodec switch to tell it you don't care what it thinks of your palette. can that not be used through nmlc? |
| 13:58 | <@planetmaker> | yeah, frosch123, same here :) |
| 13:58 | <@peter1138> | My "Windows" key has a stylised duck on it... |
| 13:58 | <V453000> | idk Pikka, devzone does it :D |
| 13:58 | <@planetmaker> | Pikka, no, that can't |
| 13:59 | <@planetmaker> | Pikka, "used through nml" also does not quite cut it. nml does not need grfcodec :) |
| 13:59 | <@peter1138> | You have to be careful with palettes. Some programs will "helpfully" remove colours that aren't in the image. |
| 13:59 | <frosch123> | V453000: usally look for something like "disable palette opimisation" or similar |
| 13:59 | <Pikka> | right |
| 13:59 | <Pikka> | sorry :) |
| 14:00 | <@planetmaker> | nah, np :) |
| 14:00 | <V453000> | frosch123: but where :D |
| 14:00 | <@planetmaker> | in photoshop? |
| 14:00 | <Pikka> | did nmlc inherit grfcodec's list of allowable palettes, or does it only accept the proper ones? |
| 14:00 | <@planetmaker> | you're the photoshop user |
| 14:00 | <V453000> | O_O |
| 14:00 | <andythenorth> | V453000: how are you applying the palette? |
| 14:00 | <@planetmaker> | Pikka, it has its own definition of palettes. Imported from openttd's code iirc |
| 14:00 | <frosch123> | V453000: i can tell you where to find it in gimp :) |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | are you converting to indexed and then just saving png? |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | or using save for web? |
| 14:01 | <V453000> | andythenorth: image - mode - indexed image -> load the palette, save |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | use save for web, load the palette there, see what the preview is |
| 14:01 | <V453000> | hm didnt think of saving for web |
| 14:01 | <@planetmaker> | imported as in copy&paste |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | your method should work |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | but sfw gives you a better preview in case of fuckups |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | sounds like a bad palette |
| 14:01 | <Pikka> | "no action colours" isn't going to be the right palette, though |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | my thought too |
| 14:01 | <Pikka> | load the no action colours one, then load the "proper" one |
| 14:02 | <@planetmaker> | good spot, Pikka :) |
| 14:02 | <V453000> | but what is the noact palette for then? |
| 14:02 | <@planetmaker> | V453000, for removing them from a sprite |
| 14:02 | <V453000> | just to convert colours without act, but save in normal colours with everything? |
| 14:02 | <V453000> | aha |
| 14:02 | <@planetmaker> | yup |
| 14:02 | <V453000> | nice, did that already :D |
| 14:03 | <@planetmaker> | the final saved file must always be with the full palette |
| 14:03 | <V453000> | aha |
| 14:03 | <V453000> | didnt know |
| 14:03 | <V453000> | thanks :) |
| 14:03 | <andythenorth> | sounds like a useful palette :) |
| 14:03 | <@peter1138> | one-way road markers should've been on tile edges :p |
| 14:04 | <Pikka> | http://i.imgur.com/IRdP98O.png <- av8 conversion palette :P |
| 14:04 | <frosch123> | peter1138: signals should have been on tile edges? :p |
| 14:04 | <@peter1138> | That toO! |
| 14:05 | <V453000> | 18:03:32 nmlc ERROR: Image file "gfx/8bpp/x1_COMPOSE_8bpp.png": Palette is not recognized as a valid palette. |
| 14:05 | <V453000> | still :D |
| 14:05 | <V453000> | :( |
| 14:05 | <Pikka> | you broke it |
| 14:05 | <frosch123> | open it with ttdviewer, and check how it looks |
| 14:06 | <V453000> | animates |
| 14:06 | <V453000> | well some things I got rid of |
| 14:06 | <V453000> | fire/lighthouse is there |
| 14:07 | <V453000> | and fizzy drink colour :D |
| 14:08 | <frosch123> | well, if the image is correct, and no colours are swapped or something, you can resave with it |
| 14:08 | <frosch123> | it will then always have a proper palette |
| 14:09 | <frosch123> | ttdviewer does not check for an exact palette, it only uses a heuristic to decide which one is more likely, and then forces it :p |
| 14:09 | <V453000> | I think it works now |
| 14:09 | <V453000> | I opened my other sprites which work, and copypasted the thing in that image |
| 14:10 | <V453000> | one of the fire cycle colours somehow remained, but got rid of that one manually |
| 14:11 | <V453000> | trying again (: |
| 14:12 | <Sylf> | making again |
| 14:12 | <@planetmaker> | palettes are a bitch ;) |
| 14:12 | <V453000> | . |
| 14:13 | <Sylf> | XD bunch of pure white pixel warnings |
| 14:13 | <V453000> | oh fuck off :D forgot about white |
| 14:13 | <Sylf> | but at least it built |
| 14:14 | <V453000> | fixed whites locally |
| 14:28 | <V453000> | I might try to draw at least URAN, VEHI and YETI icons |
| 14:28 | <V453000> | will do now |
| 14:28 | <V453000> | 5-X will still take a bit of time |
| 14:28 | <V453000> | almost done though :) |
| 14:29 | <V453000> | I think the icons are 10x10 |
| 14:29 | <Sylf> | lemme check |
| 14:29 | <V453000> | I kind of checked already but please do :) cant hurt |
| 14:31 | <Sylf> | yup, looks like that's it |
| 14:33 | <V453000> | kayz, drawing nawo |
| 14:33 | <V453000> | naow |
| 14:42 | <andythenorth> | oopsie |
| 14:42 | * | andythenorth broke the tests |
| 14:45 | <@Alberth> | quickly, throw them away so nobody sees it! |
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| 15:12 | <frosch123> | how about renaming the settings categories? "basic" -> "show only important settings", "advanced" -> "show most settings", "expert" -> "show all settings, also the weird ones" |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | humour |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | in a game |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | shameful |
| 15:16 | * | andythenorth deletes things |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | tests still pass |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | clearly wasn’t needed |
| 15:16 | <Jinassi> | noob-choochoo-trainmaster |
| 15:17 | <frosch123> | i was actually being serious :p |
| 15:17 | <andythenorth> | I am agreeing |
| 15:17 | <andythenorth> | in a very english way |
| 15:17 | <andythenorth> | you should do it |
| 15:17 | <frosch123> | hmm it makes referencing the settings harder though |
| 15:18 | <frosch123> | maybe it should only be a descriptive hint in parentheses |
| 15:18 | <frosch123> | "basic (only important settings), "advanced (most settings)", "expert/all (all including weird settings)" |
| 15:19 | <Jinassi> | you peeps have a very specific humour |
| 15:19 | <Jinassi> | comic sans then? :p |
| 15:20 | <Jinassi> | i go back to my corner |
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| 15:20 | <frosch123> | dom casual is more classic :p |
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| 15:21 | <Pikka> | btw, andythenorth |
| 15:21 | <Pikka> | "Or the British Trains grf, surely?" |
| 15:21 | <Pikka> | totally can't tell. :) |
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| 15:27 | <@peter1138> | Totally. |
| 15:30 | <andythenorth> | what did I do now? |
| 15:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, your / key has a bump? :S <- ? |
| 15:35 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, no idea |
| 15:36 | <@peter1138> | tab-complete fail, i think. |
| 15:37 | <Pikka> | you were inscrutable, andythenorth |
| 15:37 | <Pikka> | can't tell if you're serious or not :) |
| 15:38 | <andythenorth> | I’d like to see it succeed |
| 15:38 | <andythenorth> | I don’t enjoy watching people fail |
| 15:38 | <Pikka> | well, sure |
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| 15:39 | <Pikka> | and fair enough |
| 15:39 | <Pikka> | how goes dark horse, btw? since Dan is already talking about moving on to americanish... |
| 15:42 | <frosch123> | dark horse? you mean an american set needs equal amounts of dark/bright, male/female, hetero/homo/bi/a/para trains? |
| 15:45 | <Pikka> | nope |
| 15:46 | <Pikka> | dark horse isn't americanish, it's what comes before americanish :) |
| 15:46 | <V453000> | I want to see a train with tits |
| 15:46 | <V453000> | andythenorth: show me immediatele |
| 15:46 | <V453000> | y |
| 15:47 | <andythenorth> | no horsing |
| 15:47 | <andythenorth> | right now |
| 15:47 | <andythenorth> | je suis working |
| 15:47 | <andythenorth> | horsing is parked |
| 15:47 | <andythenorth> | also I have been busy cancelling christmas |
| 15:47 | <@planetmaker> | cancelling christmas, hm. Call it Easter instead? |
| 15:48 | <@planetmaker> | <frosch123> how about renaming the settings categories? "basic" -> "show only important settings", "advanced" -> "show most settings", "expert" -> "show all settings, also the weird ones" <-- sounds indeed less confusing than current names |
| 15:49 | <@planetmaker> | or the parentheses version even |
| 15:55 | <frosch123> | https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ps5yuueja?/ps5yuueja <- "weird" or "strange"? |
| 15:56 | <Taede> | 'weird and wonderful' |
| 16:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | weird and crazy |
| 16:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "V would use these settings" |
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| 16:05 | <@planetmaker> | weird |
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| 16:14 | <Sylf> | twoway_eol is still not in the gui anyway... |
| 16:15 | <@planetmaker> | Sylf, no path finder settings are in the GUI |
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| 16:15 | <Sylf> | true |
| 16:15 | <Sylf> | so they're the beyond the expert settings? |
| 16:16 | <Sylf> | mess with them at your own risk |
| 16:16 | <@planetmaker> | somewhat the reasoning is: PF settings are crucial and wrong settings can basically 'destroy' the PF from proper working. If you change them, you really should know what you do. And then you can also use the console |
| 16:16 | <@planetmaker> | basically yes |
| 16:17 | <frosch123> | there are 3 pathfinder settings in the gui :p |
| 16:17 | <@planetmaker> | hm :) 90° turns |
| 16:17 | <frosch123> | 6 in total under "routing" |
| 16:17 | <@planetmaker> | dang. you win :) |
| 16:17 | <frosch123> | if you manage to write a proper description i would not mind adding more pathfinder settings of type bool |
| 16:17 | <frosch123> | just do not offer the integer settings :p |
| 16:17 | <@peter1138> | Penalty settings! |
| 16:18 | <@peter1138> | Allow "expert" users to mess up their games! |
| 16:18 | <Sylf> | :D |
| 16:18 | <@planetmaker> | settings level: basic, advanced, expert, mental asylum |
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| 16:19 | <andythenorth> | settings, xml editor |
| 16:19 | <andythenorth> | do it the OS X way |
| 16:19 | <frosch123> | which setting is it actually? |
| 16:19 | <frosch123> | pf.reverse_at_signals? |
| 16:19 | <frosch123> | pf.reserve_paths <- why is that even a setting? |
| 16:20 | <@planetmaker> | pf.twoway_red_eol or something |
| 16:20 | <@planetmaker> | or what you mean? |
| 16:21 | <Sylf> | yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol |
| 16:21 | <Sylf> | it's sad when I can type that loooking it up >_< |
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| 16:21 | <Sylf> | without* |
| 16:21 | <@peter1138> | As a solely path-signal user... har har! |
| 16:21 | <frosch123> | hmm, so it is yapf only |
| 16:22 | <frosch123> | what does npf do? |
| 16:22 | <andythenorth> | also har har at 90’ turns being banned |
| 16:22 | <@peter1138> | Also har har at andythenorth's feeble attempt at a ° symbol |
| 16:22 | <andythenorth> | oh that again |
| 16:22 | <andythenorth> | I should learn |
| 16:23 | * | andythenorth is on the road again |
| 16:23 | <@peter1138> | Nah, your (sometimes incorrect) smart-quotes everywhere make up for it. |
| 16:23 | <andythenorth> | going to a home out on the range |
| 16:23 | <andythenorth> | thanks |
| 16:23 | <andythenorth> | I do try |
| 16:23 | <andythenorth> | or my client does |
| 16:23 | <@peter1138> | Yers, it looks distinctly automatic :-) |
| 16:23 | <frosch123> | Sylf: we can call it "#coop style train routing" :p |
| 16:23 | <andythenorth> | hmm, can’t write code to ZZ top :P |
| 16:23 | <Sylf> | XD |
| 16:24 | <andythenorth> | 90º turns very bad for ships |
| 16:24 | <andythenorth> | if banned |
| 16:24 | <andythenorth> | "just saying” |
| 16:24 | <V453000> | just call it "make overflows work" |
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| 16:24 | <V453000> | that is what 80% of the people know it as :D |
| 16:24 | <Sylf> | coop style overflow, that is |
| 16:24 | <frosch123> | wut? i use overflow depots all the time, and they work fine |
| 16:24 | <V453000> | probably bad ones :P |
| 16:25 | <Sylf> | see, most people use PBS+forced depot overflows |
| 16:25 | <V453000> | I noticed :) |
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| 16:25 | <@peter1138> | I don't use PBS, as I don't play TTDPatch. |
| 16:25 | <frosch123> | i need servicing anyway, when playing with breakdowns |
| 16:25 | <V453000> | .................... |
| 16:26 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, only for trains |
| 16:26 | <frosch123> | we could separate 90 degree turns for trains and ships :) |
| 16:26 | <@planetmaker> | aren't they? |
| 16:27 | <frosch123> | more settings .) |
| 16:27 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: funnily, no :p |
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| 16:27 | <V453000> | or just make it always allowed for ships? |
| 16:27 | <V453000> | what are the downsides there? |
| 16:27 | <frosch123> | it's another of those: original/realistic settings :p |
| 16:27 | <frosch123> | somewhen i want to add a setting with values "realistic" and "useful" |
| 16:27 | <V453000> | I can imagine that some extremist might want to keep 90deg for trains |
| 16:27 | <@peter1138> | We should implement vehicle reversing instead. |
| 16:28 | <@peter1138> | Ship stuck? Reverse it out... |
| 16:29 | <frosch123> | i have a patch for trains, it's in hgtrunk5 |
| 16:29 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123, for ships we simply should ignore that setting. Every ship nearly can turn on the place it's located |
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| 16:30 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: but not instantanious |
| 16:30 | <@planetmaker> | doing so is a requirement for a license |
| 16:31 | <@peter1138> | Only if there's enough room :-) |
| 16:31 | <@planetmaker> | frosch123, not instantanious. But... good enough really. Like with a car turning on a road. But easier |
| 16:31 | <@planetmaker> | peter1138, it doesn't need much more than a circle with a diameter of the length of the boat |
| 16:31 | <@peter1138> | planetmaker, you obviously play with smaller ships than I see in ottd :) |
| 16:32 | <@planetmaker> | :) but even the big ocean liners *can* do so |
| 16:32 | <@planetmaker> | and they actually do so in harbours |
| 16:32 | <V453000> | with or without sinking? :D |
| 16:33 | <@planetmaker> | without. it's easy |
| 16:33 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: isn't that what towboats are for? |
| 16:33 | <frosch123> | when ships cannot turn on their own? |
| 16:33 | <@planetmaker> | those are usually used to tow barges which have no motor at all |
| 16:36 | <FLHerne> | Or to turn big ships in small spaces before all these vectored-thrust pod things came in? |
| 16:36 | <@planetmaker> | even without they could. In principle. But only *very* slowly |
| 16:37 | <@planetmaker> | so yes, big vessels without auxilary motors are a pain to turn :) |
| 16:40 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| 16:51 | <andythenorth> | with 90º turns off, ships take stupid routes |
| 16:51 | <andythenorth> | or get stuck |
| 16:52 | <andythenorth> | in rivers and canals |
| 16:52 | <andythenorth> | it’s a bug afaict |
| 16:52 | <andythenorth> | unless it’s a feature |
| 16:53 | <frosch123> | i don't think ships can get stuck |
| 16:53 | <frosch123> | they will turn 180° and then drive back |
| 16:54 | <andythenorth> | I think I’ve seen it |
| 16:54 | <andythenorth> | they fail to make a turn, continue up a different route |
| 16:54 | <andythenorth> | and then lose the route to the next destination |
| 16:54 | <frosch123> | the onlly annoyance is that they briefly report "ship lost" |
| 16:54 | <andythenorth> | I’m fairly certain they got too far from a bouy |
| 16:54 | <andythenorth> | but I don’t have a save to prove it :) |
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| 17:04 | <fjb> | If nobody has a save of it it didn't happen. |
| 17:06 | <FLHerne> | You can trap them with carefully-timed landcaping |
| 17:07 | <FLHerne> | Because they can only reverse direction when hitting land, so if they're on a diagonal you can trap them in a corner where it looks like they ought to be able to get out |
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| 17:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <frosch123> Sylf: we can call it "#coop style train routing" :p <-- that reminds me of "ttdpatch-style non-stop handling" or somesuch |
| 17:42 | <NGC3982> | Coop is a Swedish grocery store chain. |
| 17:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | wasn't Koopa like a villain in mario? |
| 17:47 | <frosch123> | night |
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| 18:32 | <andythenorth> | bed |
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| 18:37 | <argoneus> | table |
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| 19:03 | <argoneus> | the inconsistency with planes loading is annoying |
| 19:03 | <argoneus> | full load any cargo should mean full load any cargo |
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| 19:03 | <argoneus> | it shouldn't have "intuitive" special functions |
| 19:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or: full load should be able to specify which cargo |
| 19:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | anyway, if you're really interested in the mail, just refit to mail only |
| 19:05 | <argoneus> | yeah I read that on the forums too |
| 19:05 | <argoneus> | of course I don't want to prioritize mail |
| 19:05 | <argoneus> | but having an undeterministic function that looks the same, is called the same, but works differently for another vehicle |
| 19:05 | <argoneus> | just feels like bad design |
| 19:06 | <argoneus> | wouldn't it be possible to change just the string to "full load passengers"? |
| 19:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think you're using the word "undeterministic" wrong |
| 19:06 | <argoneus> | since there apparently is code "if vehicle is airplane" |
| 19:06 | <argoneus> | well |
| 19:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, it does seem inconsistent |
| 19:07 | <argoneus> | it can feel undeterministic for a player that doesn't know it's a special case |
| 19:07 | <argoneus> | makes trains, works one way |
| 19:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and no, the string cannot be changed |
| 19:07 | <argoneus> | makes airplane, works another way |
| 19:07 | <argoneus> | player is confused, why the same thing works differently |
| 19:07 | <argoneus> | that's the definition of undeterministic, no? |
| 19:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no |
| 19:07 | <argoneus> | it's like throwing a red ball, it flies |
| 19:07 | <argoneus> | then having a blue ball with all the same parameters, just being blue |
| 19:07 | <argoneus> | and it doesn't fly |
| 19:08 | <argoneus> | and you wonder why |
| 19:08 | <@planetmaker> | sounds 100% deterministic |
| 19:08 | <argoneus> | okay, I'll replace it with "inconsistent" |
| 19:08 | <argoneus> | you're right |
| 19:08 | <argoneus> | the same blue ball will always do the same |
| 19:08 | <argoneus> | it won't suddenly fly |
| 19:09 | <argoneus> | arguing about semantics will not fix this issue, though :< |
| 19:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, the probability that a bowling ball spontaneously jumps of the ground is non-zero :p |
| 19:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | *off |
| 19:09 | <argoneus> | the probability my body suddenly re-materializes next to yours is non-zero too |
| 19:10 | <argoneus> | zero and infinity are funny numbers :D |
| 19:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | anyway, i don't see any amount of arguing causing any change to that feature |
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| 19:10 | <argoneus> | so just changing the string is impossible? |
| 19:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a) infinity is not a number, b) there's more than one infinity |
| 19:11 | <argoneus> | it is not a real number |
| 19:12 | <argoneus> | and I never talked about b) |
| 19:12 | <argoneus> | :< |
| 19:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there are algebraic constructs that treat infinity like something you can do operations on |
| 19:13 | <argoneus> | yes |
| 19:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but calling those things "numbers" may be a bit of a stretch |
| 19:13 | <argoneus> | you can extend real numbers with infinity and minus infinity |
| 19:14 | <argoneus> | which is useful |
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| 19:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you can also extend the real or complex numbers with one type of infinity |
| 19:15 | <argoneus> | trick question |
| 19:15 | <argoneus> | what is 1/inf |
| 19:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which is used in some forms of projective geometry |
| 19:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or in elliptic curves |
| 19:16 | <argoneus> | I wish I found math interesting :( |
| 19:16 | <argoneus> | er |
| 19:16 | <argoneus> | let me revise that |
| 19:16 | <argoneus> | I wish I had the right mindset to understanding math |
| 19:17 | <argoneus> | in high school it was mostly about drilling exercises |
| 19:17 | <argoneus> | now it's about using my brain :( |
| 19:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | elliptic curves are a fun thing |
| 19:18 | <argoneus> | so far I only had linear algebra |
| 19:18 | <argoneus> | so I have no idea what you are talking about |
| 19:18 | <argoneus> | lines, planes, etc, sure |
| 19:18 | <argoneus> | elliptic curves, nope |
| 19:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | an elliptic curve is a function like "y^2=x^3-x-1" |
| 19:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or more general: "y^2=x^3+ax+b" |
| 19:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which, if you plot it, is some wiggly thing that is symmetric to the x axis |
| 19:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and what you can do with this is define an operation on two points on that curve: "A+B" is defined as the point that intersects with the elliptic curve if you draw a straight line between A and B, and then mirror that point on the x axis |
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| 19:22 | <argoneus> | what point? |
| 19:22 | <argoneus> | when you have a line |
| 19:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | every line you draw like this has 3 intersections with the curve, unless it is vertical, or A=B |
| 19:23 | <argoneus> | ohh, like that |
| 19:23 | <argoneus> | I get it now |
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| 19:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in the latter case the tangent is used |
| 19:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and in the former case, an element called "O" is used, which represents "the poin in infinity" |
| 19:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | this "O" happens to be the neutral element of this operation |
| 19:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so "A+O=A" |
| 19:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and if "A+B=O" then you can think of B=-A |
| 19:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which incidentally means that A and B are mirrored on the x axis |
| 19:26 | <argoneus> | uhh |
| 19:26 | <argoneus> | why do I feel like everyone here is a math/cs/physics major |
| 19:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | because we're a protective group and drive out people who are not :p |
| 19:27 | <argoneus> | protective in what sense? |
| 19:27 | <argoneus> | you all seem like a bunch of nice people to me :< |
| 19:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm not entirely sure why we still tolerate andy :p |
| 19:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you clearly haven't met TB yet :p |
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| 19:34 | <argoneus> | Eddi|zuHause: totalbiscuit? :O |
| 19:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no |
| 19:35 | <argoneus> | truebrein? |
| 19:35 | * | argoneus wonders who this mysterious TB is and why I should meet him |
| 19:36 | <argoneus> | aanyway nn my friends |
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| 22:38 | <liq3> | Eddi|zuHause: I looked up one of those supposed OpenGL implementations. It was just an openGL blitter, not a proper OpenGL implementation. |
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| --- | Log | closed Fri Oct 03 00:00:36 2014 |
