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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-10-02

---Logopened Thu Oct 02 00:00:35 2014
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00:28<SHOTbyGUN>is Enonomy: inflation just visual aspect, does it really affect gameplay?
00:29<Supercheese>it definitely does
00:29<Supercheese>Inflation will make it harder and harder to be profitable as the years tick by
00:31<SHOTbyGUN>if inflation increases all prices and also income, is it just +-0 ?
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00:56<SHOTbyGUN>by default airport costs 50 000 but maitenance is 400 000 ... ?
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00:56<SHOTbyGUN>I suppose I have to increase airport building cost to 1 000 000 somehow, dunno how
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01:07<SHOTbyGUN>or rather I'd like large airport to to be 400 000 initially and 400 000 annually
01:08<Supercheese>Inflation makes it such that costs rise faster than profits
01:08<Supercheese>it says so in the helptext
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01:18<SHOTbyGUN>oh thx
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01:41<SHOTbyGUN><MTsPony> thx this day time reduction works wonders :) ... finally it is reasonable to get passengers from another cities, when there is not enough passengers in the vincinity of the airport :P
01:46<Supercheese>Daylength is one of those highly desirable, easily implemented but with a few problems, very tough to implement without any problems
01:46<Supercheese>desirable features*
01:48<SHOTbyGUN>Daylength decreases income too right :o ?
01:49<Supercheese>That depends, there are different implementations of daylength
01:49<SHOTbyGUN>oh :F
01:49<SHOTbyGUN>I am using the reddit client
01:49<Supercheese>generally, I think it will increase income, because now your vehicles can make more trips in the same date-interval
01:49<Supercheese>since the dates progress more slowly
01:49<Supercheese>but it gets rather complicated
01:49<SHOTbyGUN>yeah, making vehicle maitenance (less costly)
01:50<SHOTbyGUN>seems like they never need to go to depot haha
01:50<Supercheese>does Reddit play with breakdowns on? :\
01:50*Supercheese cannot stand breakdowns
01:50<SHOTbyGUN>oh, well if it is not on, that'd explain why no depot :F
01:51<SHOTbyGUN>oh finally a breakdown on aircraft
01:52<SHOTbyGUN>servicing interval 100 days ... times 5 Day length XD
01:53<SHOTbyGUN>I am trying to make good configuration to make challenging game :P and I think I am getting there
01:53<SHOTbyGUN>reddit servers didint have cargo distribution on so I dont want to play there :(
01:55*Supercheese doesn't use cargodist
01:55<Supercheese>might try out Reddit then
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02:01<Supercheese>Anyone know what the ISO langcode for Latin is? Maybe la_LA?
02:02<SHOTbyGUN>dunno, other than ISO-8859-1
02:03<SHOTbyGUN>but I think internet agrees that its UTF-8 or die
02:03<Supercheese>I meant Latin language
02:03<Supercheese>Lingua Latina
02:04<Supercheese>like en_US for US English
02:04<SHOTbyGUN>oh D
02:04<SHOTbyGUN>no idea
02:05<Supercheese>oh hmm
02:06<Supercheese>I guess it needn't have a second -part
02:06<SHOTbyGUN>im sure you can just google em
02:06<Supercheese>so just la
02:08<Supercheese>although every lang in OTTD does have a second portion
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02:41<SHOTbyGUN>Day Length Factor worked well to reduce passenger spawning, but it also slowed my economy down :( looks like there is no production factor :(
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03:06<SHOTbyGUN>reducing passenger spawning is impossible :'(
03:07<SHOTbyGUN>someone plz fix
03:07<@planetmaker>use a NewGRF with less passengers / inhabitants per house
03:07<Supercheese>There's a NewGRF for That™
03:07<Supercheese>dangit ninjaed
03:07<@planetmaker>thus: your problem is already fixed
03:07<@planetmaker>:) Moin Supercheese
03:08<SHOTbyGUN>I have googled 3 days now
03:08<SHOTbyGUN>link please?
03:08<Supercheese>planetmaker: you ninja, you :P
03:08<@planetmaker>breakfast-ninja ;)
03:09<@planetmaker>maybe early houses. ttrs is rather the anti-thesis of that
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03:12<SHOTbyGUN>that mod only reduces passenger generation if year is less than 1929
03:12<Supercheese>there are others, or at least should be
03:13<Supercheese>TaI by Pikka should have much lower pax
03:13<@planetmaker>it has an ugly influence on town growth ;)
03:13<Supercheese>well, yes
03:14<Supercheese>I find the enormous amounts of pax merely a challenge to be embraced rather than avoided
03:14<Supercheese>in TTRS, I mean
03:22<SHOTbyGUN>Supercheese what is TTRS ?
03:22<Supercheese>Total Town Replacement Set
03:22<Supercheese>popular Town newgrf
03:23<SHOTbyGUN>oh, gotta test that out
03:23<SHOTbyGUN>if it helps out with my problem =)
03:23<Supercheese>hahaha no
03:23<Supercheese>it will overload you with more passengers
03:24<SHOTbyGUN>oh :F
03:25<SHOTbyGUN>so if I have 1000 population city with 1200 passengers on the stations, and 40+ busses trying to keep the stations not glogging
03:25<SHOTbyGUN>all roads are filled with busses
03:25<Supercheese>solution: find a more efficient transport method
03:25<SHOTbyGUN>you telling me this is the way to get more passengers :O ?
03:25<Supercheese>trams, trains
03:25<Supercheese>better buses
03:25<V453000>just provide better service :)
03:25<Supercheese>^ that
03:25<andythenorth>afaict over-supply of pax isn’t solvable
03:26<andythenorth>so many people assume this is some kind of designed in gameplay challenge :)
03:26<andythenorth>when it’s totally accidental
03:26<Supercheese>Buses, much like in real life oddly enough, are not suitable for enormous amounts of passengers
03:26<andythenorth>bulldoze canals into town
03:26<andythenorth>use ships
03:26<Supercheese>andythenorth: though it may be an accident it is nonetheless a nice challenge
03:26<andythenorth>ships have infinite capacity, subject to your CPU
03:26<Supercheese>Yep ships are the ultimate solution, infinite capacity
03:27<andythenorth>Venice Everywhere
03:27<SHOTbyGUN>yeah, but I was thinking about fixing the game, not exploiting it
03:27<SHOTbyGUN>lower pax generation 4x or 8x and I am very happy
03:27<Supercheese>Eh, potato/potato
03:28<SHOTbyGUN>currently you just make city -> train -> city = 1 million a year
03:28<SHOTbyGUN>game win
03:28<andythenorth>try TaI
03:28<Supercheese>was suggested
03:28<SHOTbyGUN>yeah I am going to do that now
03:28<andythenorth>all the other house grfs build huge buildings as the city grows
03:28<andythenorth>with high pax generation
03:28<V453000>which is why money doesnt matter at all SHOTbyGUN
03:29<V453000>it is just a number
03:29<andythenorth>there is a group of players who aim for city growth, rather than pax transport
03:29<V453000>the game complexity is in creating interesting train networks, you can get a lot of money in your first game if you fast forward, win
03:29<andythenorth>and some of the grfs head in the direction of huge populations, rather than 100% clearance
03:30<V453000>people who grow towns without servicing them properly are just dumb
03:30<V453000>but having high amount of pax doesnt mean growing is a bad thing
03:30<V453000>you just need better trains / more intense network to keep the town serviced
03:30<V453000>key idea stays
03:31<@planetmaker>andythenorth, pax supply directly correlates with inhabitants in area covered by station. Make a low population house set and you somewhat 'solve' that. If population count and passenger supply is considered a problem, that is
03:31<V453000>train newGRFs have so different pax capacities that it is basically impossible to "fix"
03:31<andythenorth>station walking :P
03:31<V453000>.. :)
03:32<V453000>for example, latest YETI ideas are that you get more workers per delivered pax/mail to the worker yard -> more industry production
03:32<andythenorth>IH metro gives you 400pax in a 1 tile train btw
03:32<V453000>meaning that growing a town is completely sensible, but you have to care for it and take the products from it somewhere
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03:32<@planetmaker>that's HUGE
03:32<V453000>400 per tile is just retarded
03:33<V453000>even the highest capacity of slowest trains in NUTS is 240 per tile
03:33<fonsinchen>Supercheese: la_RM (latin/roman empire) ;)
03:33<V453000>DB set transrapid had 240 too I believe
03:33<Supercheese>I just have it la_LA at the moment
03:33<V453000>except it went 500 kmh with instant acceleration XD not broken.
03:33<Supercheese>la_VA for Vatican?
03:34*Supercheese does not know
03:34<V453000>I think NUTS is kind of okay vs. normal town sets like japanese buildings, but e.g. UKRS SUFFERS due to low capacities
03:34<andythenorth>V453000: 400 is for a reason :P
03:34<fonsinchen>maybe. The _LA part doesn't make any sense as there is no such country as 'LA' (or maybe it's Los Angeles).
03:34<V453000>andythenorth: which is? :D
03:34<fonsinchen>Anyway, there are ISO codes without second part
03:34*Supercheese is American after all
03:35<andythenorth>V453000: so you can fit 400 pax in a tile train of course
03:35<Supercheese>I would just as soon keep it at la
03:35<fonsinchen>The second part is only needed for languages that are slightly different in different regions where they're spoken
03:35<Supercheese>but every other language in OTTD has both parts, so I was uncertain
03:35<fonsinchen>Then we probably don't use ISO codes
03:35<Supercheese>and there are different pronunciations around, but not so much spellings
03:35<__ln__>fonsinchen: we don't?
03:36<fonsinchen>Otherwise we shouldn't have a second part for things like, say, romanian
03:36<Supercheese>the field in the .lang file is "##isocode en_US"
03:36<V453000>just wtf andy
03:36<V453000>but okay :D
03:36<V453000>how fast are the trains pulling such wagons andythenorth ?
03:36<andythenorth>65mph, metro
03:36<__ln__>the country part of the locale identifier usually (though not maybe in OTTD) affects things such as date formatting, which are more related to country than the language.
03:37<V453000>well at least that
03:37<V453000>but still, 400 ... :)
03:37<fonsinchen>Yes, but if the language is only spoken in one country then that determines it already
03:37<andythenorth>why are the canadian grfs on bananas?
03:37<andythenorth>I thought they were being removed?
03:38<V453000>I guess they just dont show in openttd due to max version?
03:39<fonsinchen>I just remember the language stuff because at some point I tried to understand this:
03:39<Supercheese>Technically I think only the Vatican still has Latin as an official language
03:39<V453000>I do not believe anybody supports this cunt and is willing to remove things from bananas and break those newGRFs for players (again)
03:40<Supercheese>despite numerous national mottos/text on currencies being in Latin
03:40<fonsinchen>Mind that this is not complete, there are also codes with an "@<characterSet>" after them, for example for Japanese where they have the same language in different writings
03:40<andythenorth>he should just upload blank grfs
03:40<V453000>andythenorth: somebody probably didnt realize it is possible to download things manually :P
03:40<andythenorth>currently all can stuff is still available to download
03:41<V453000>would be cute
03:41<Supercheese>Yeah the Canadian grfs have been subject to excessive amounts of drama
03:41<andythenorth>would be sensible for him to blank them
03:41<V453000>he will come back with his full mouth of bullshit sooner or later anyway
03:43<__ln__>even though i'm the one who introduced the isocode thing in to OTTD translations, i don't quite remember whether the country information is mandatory or not.
03:44<Supercheese>Well, judging purely by precedent, it seems mandatory
03:44<Supercheese>of course, "precedent be damned" is an option as well
03:45<fonsinchen>I have to leave now, but I can try to dig out the standard document tonight. I think I've read it at some point.
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03:51<Eddi|zuHause><Supercheese> although every lang in OTTD does have a second portion <-- the second part denotes country-specific localisation
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>so you could have a difference between de_DE and de_CH
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>even though it's technically the same language
03:52<Supercheese>aye... so what then for Latin?
03:53<Eddi|zuHause>... which country has a significant amount of latin speakers? :p
03:53<Supercheese>well, as I said, only the Vatican it would seem
03:53<Supercheese>but only because their dearth of citizens
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03:53<Supercheese>so per capita the fluency is high ;)
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03:59<Eddi|zuHause>"the region subtag MAY be omitted, as when it adds no distinguishing value to the tag."
04:00<Supercheese>Well then.
04:01<Eddi|zuHause>so i guess "la" will do
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04:21<@planetmaker>officially Vatican and Malta have latin as language
04:23<@planetmaker>or I read it wrongly and "Sovereign Military Order of Malta" is not identical to Malta itself
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04:23<@planetmaker>seems I did
04:24<@planetmaker>so Vatican is bigger. It probably has more than 3 citizens :D
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04:47<argoneus>I am still not exactly sure
04:47<argoneus>does this game have anything from the original TTD? like reverse engineered code etc
04:47<argoneus>or is it all brand new, just using similar graphics and same gameplay
04:49<V453000> /same graphics and similar gameplay? :D
04:51<Eddi|zuHause>the code was reverse engineered and then slowly replaced/improved over time
04:51<argoneus>almost identical graphics and almost identical gameplay ;p
04:51<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: so basically the original devs looked how chris made the game, and then kinda rewrote that?
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>somewhat. the original was written in assembler, and this project got started as a complete reimplementation in c
04:52<argoneus>and now it's C++ :D
04:52<argoneus>or wait, it's not
04:52<argoneus>it still blows my mind
04:52<argoneus>how he just sat down
04:52<argoneus>and made two groundbreaking games in asm
04:53<argoneus>and just carried on with his life
04:53<argoneus>(unless I missed something other than ttd and rct)
04:53<argoneus>I was happy to write a super simple calculator in asm, and it was 800 something lines
04:53<argoneus>and he makes a whole damn game
04:54<argoneus>and in an age when C was widely used already, too
04:54<argoneus>it's just really mind boggling
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>what is a "boggle" anyway?
04:57<argoneus>dunno, I just use it as a phrase
04:57<andythenorth>can’t conceptualise a boggle
04:57<V453000>subsitute it with fuck
04:58<argoneus>english is a flexible language
04:58<argoneus>you can express most things with a variation of fuck
04:59<__ln__>argoneus: yes, this game is a result of reverse engineering TTD.
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>like replace every instance of "smurf" with "fuck"?
04:59<argoneus>that's impressive in its own way
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05:06<@peter1138>20 years ago writing games in assembly was fairly common.
05:07<andythenorth>also spreadsheets
05:07<andythenorth>and screensavers
05:07<@peter1138>Declining by the 90s, though.
05:10<argoneus>I wonder why so little people play this game
05:10<argoneus>I feel there's more modders and developers than players
05:10<@peter1138>Because it isn't an AAA FPS shooter on XBONE.
05:11<argoneus>I mean
05:11<argoneus>I understand games like dwarf fortress
05:11<andythenorth>because it doesn’t have dragons
05:11<argoneus>the graphics are no graphics
05:11<argoneus>and it's like the most complex game ever
05:11<argoneus>but this game isn't hard to get into
05:11<argoneus>nor does it look bad
05:12<V453000>it doesnt tell people what to do
05:12<V453000>simple reason
05:12<argoneus>is there a wiki page like "your first game"?
05:12<V453000>with that, majority does not discover the complexity of the game because they have no goal
05:12<@planetmaker>oh, many people can't handle a "no directions" game ;)
05:12<argoneus>*cough* minecrap *cough*
05:13<@planetmaker>argoneus, not that I know, but you could create such page
05:13*__ln__ just installed a preview of Windows NT 6.2
05:13<argoneus>planetmaker: I could I guess
05:13<argoneus>I'm playing with a friend right now who is super new to the game, and he's struggling with a lot of things
05:13<argoneus>might focus on those things
05:13<liq3>It's a really a game that's quite hard without spending a while reading the wiki.
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: isn't it already at 6.3?
05:14<liq3>Especially signals. Those things are mysterious.
05:14<argoneus>I might try making an introduction for totally new players wiki page kinda thing
05:14<@peter1138>Adding 4x zoom didn't help. New players complain that the graphics are blocky and crap.
05:14<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: apparently not
05:14<argoneus>but I'm surprised no one did so yet
05:15<argoneus>explaining signals in two paragraphs, and linking to the lengthy page
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: probably loads of people did
05:15<andythenorth>add dragons
05:15<andythenorth>problem solved
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>there are video tutorials and stuff
05:15<andythenorth>also we don’t have any ‘now do this’ buttons
05:15<argoneus>I for one hate video tutorials
05:15<argoneus>they're always like
05:15<andythenorth>some of the most popular tablet games aren’t games
05:16<argoneus>"so umm welcome to my.. umm.. openttd game"
05:16<@planetmaker>peter1138, the default graphics are 8bpp. Maybe we should switch default base set to zBase. But then it would need serious polishing before I'd advise so
05:16<andythenorth>they’re just walk-throughs with rendered iso sprites
05:16<argoneus>"if you like this video, please, ummm.. like and subscribe"
05:16<@peter1138>A lot of people can only play Minecraft because they watched LP videos.
05:16<@peter1138>And they just copy what was done in the video;.
05:16<argoneus>I also noticed there are no streams anywhere
05:16<argoneus>I could stream this game
05:16<@peter1138>planetmaker, no because zBase is fecking ugly.
05:16<__ln__>this WinNT 6.2 has a command prompt window that is resizeable, supports copy&paste, selecting easily with the mouse.
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: there is also a tutorial game script, which nobody who is new will actually find
05:16<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: tutorial game script?
05:16<argoneus>what is that
05:17<@peter1138>(But lots of people think it's better just because it's higher resolution)
05:17<argoneus>zbase makes this look like lego
05:17<liq3>Sounds like we need a big "Tutorial" button on the main menu.
05:17*andythenorth looks around for a fuck to give :)
05:17<andythenorth>doesn’t find any :)
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>just add this game script as default...
05:17<@planetmaker>liq3, yes, that might make sense indeed.
05:17<andythenorth>ottd it’s mostly a meta-game
05:18<argoneus>just pay pewdiepie to play this game
05:18<argoneus>instant kid population appears
05:18<andythenorth>mostly the game is developing the game
05:18<andythenorth>not playing the game
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05:19<V453000>what the fuck did I just read
05:19<argoneus>and then there's people like V453000
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>a random andythenorth splurt?
05:19<@planetmaker>V453000, we know what you read. 50% chance 'beer'. 50% chance 'fuck' :P
05:19<andythenorth>there’s always V453000
05:20<V453000>well the problem is that nobody is able to make a tutoria
05:20<argoneus>I wish there was something like zbase
05:20<argoneus>but not looking like super shit
05:20<V453000>since like 1% people actually knows how the game works
05:20<V453000>there will be, it will just take time argoneus :)
05:20<V453000>the amount of people making EZ/32bpp is increasing
05:21<argoneus>zbase feels more like a proof of concept right now
05:21<V453000>which it is yes
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>from 1 to 2?
05:21<@planetmaker>it took 1...2 years before 32bpp actually was taken up by the community since it became available in grf format
05:21<argoneus>how did people make graphics before?
05:21<argoneus>did they make a 32bit train and then reduce the color amount?
05:21<argoneus>and resolution
05:21<@planetmaker>it will take another 1...2 years surely before it is established enough that one can see a general improvement in the way these sprites look
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>that may have happened, but not a lot
05:22<V453000>argoneus: paletted pixel art
05:22<argoneus>oh, right, pixel art
05:22*argoneus shivers
05:22<@planetmaker>it's easy and nice to do
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>"pointilism" became a thing like 150 years ago
05:22<@planetmaker>you should try actually both ways
05:22<V453000>it isnt easy and many people miss that point :P
05:22<V453000>but you can fuck up less than with rendering
05:22<argoneus>I can't even draw a stickman
05:23<V453000>example, opengfx x zbase
05:23<@planetmaker>rendering just needs more preparation and work to get the same result, I think
05:23<argoneus>just port the game to cryengine ;)
05:23<Xaroth|Work>cryengine is overrated
05:23<V453000>it saves time on repetitive tasks pm, it is just different :) work amount is comparable
05:24<@peter1138>zBase vehicles are too big, and their offsets are wrong very often.
05:24<V453000>e.g. the landscape x roads x rails x everything thing
05:24<@planetmaker>argoneus, how many people do you think were born with a talent and ability to programme or create pixel art or rendered art? You won't know until you really tried.
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>rendering needs more setup time before you can actually see what you did
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>and a totally different set of skills
05:24<V453000>mostly true yes
05:24<Xaroth|Work>but, i must add
05:24<Xaroth|Work>rotatable maps!
05:25<@planetmaker>that's probably the difference. with pixels you get immediate feedback. you don't with rendering
05:25*peter1138 ponders making a 4x zoom version of the TTD baseset...
05:25<@peter1138>Manually editing each and every sprite. Sounds like fun.
05:25<@planetmaker>haha :)
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'll expect your results in 2 years
05:25<argoneus>planetmaker: I tried 3dsmax, wings 3d, blender, paper + pencil and watercolor, and never produced anything even remotely nonshit
05:25<@peter1138>At least your normal zoom would look nice :-)
05:26<argoneus>I have no talent for art, I would have to practice 8 hours every day for years to produce something noncrap
05:26<andythenorth>so did I
05:26<andythenorth>still trying
05:26<argoneus>I know talent is overrated, but most people that are good at art were not terrible as children at drawing
05:26<@peter1138>argoneus, what do you think artists do?
05:26<V453000>I am terrible at drawing.
05:26<argoneus>my paintings in class were always the worst, that includes others that never even tried drawing
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>i've produced a handful of decent drawings
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>out of hundreds :)
05:27<argoneus>I think of talent more as a headstart than something inherent no one can overcome
05:27<@planetmaker>argoneus, so thought I about myself. I still believe I made the best river sprites this game has ;)
05:28<@planetmaker>and sea shore
05:28<argoneus>I dunno
05:28<argoneus>when people are good at drawing, they can see the shapes they want to draw in their head, no?
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>i noticed that i am really terrible at reproducing things out of my head, but painting something i see in front of me is alright, within limits...
05:29<argoneus>I just don't think
05:29<argoneus>that someone who is literally terrible at drawing anything would be able to do pixel art or even 3d art properly
05:29<liq3>I'm good at drawing things I can see, horrible at everything else. I barely draw too.
05:29<argoneus>I know V453000 said he is bad at drawing, but he's probably not super terrible
05:29<@peter1138>Practice practice practice.
05:29<V453000>I am super terrible
05:30<V453000>because I never practiced it
05:30<argoneus>and I don't even have time to practice anymore :<
05:30<argoneus>unless I feel like drawing from 7pm to 11pm every day and then going to bed
05:30<andythenorth>pixel art is just on a grid
05:30<andythenorth>painting requires your hand to go where your eye wants
05:30<V453000>and I am able to do both pixels and 3D models to some extent
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>there are probably loads of pixel artists that are terrible at hand-drawing
05:30<andythenorth>physical skill, limiting
05:30<@planetmaker>but then, there's only very few people who ever drew rivers and sea shores for this game and actually spend much time on it. Not much competition. mb's rivers are nice, but they could be more versatile as available NewGRF technique advanced
05:30<V453000>pixel art is not drawing, pixel art is filling pixels in a table
05:30<V453000>Especially with the palette
05:30<andythenorth>planetmaker: I have some river corners? o_O
05:31<andythenorth>river grf :P
05:31<argoneus>I'm amazed every time I see those videos
05:31<@peter1138>zBase rivers sucky, incidently. As so road junctions...
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: pixel art is a lot about placing "wrong" pixels in places that makes it look really nice when zoomed out
05:31<argoneus>where people open photoshop, draw things, use all the photoshop tools to smoothen, curve, shadow, etc, and it works out perfectly
05:31<argoneus>I wish I could do that, but I don't have the motivation to practice, since there's no guarantee I will actually get any nonshit
05:32<@planetmaker>I know, andythenorth :) But one can do more fancy corners. Something which actually currently is only found in ogfx+landscape :)
05:32<V453000>that is true but that is beside the point Eddi :)
05:32<@planetmaker>I still want to port that to OpenGFX itself before 1.5
05:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: yes exactly - fancier...
05:32<@planetmaker>peter1138, zbase rivers and especially sea shores are the most ugly thing there, yes
05:32<V453000>competition on the most ugly in zbase is big though
05:33<@planetmaker>andythenorth, does fancy have a negative connotation?
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: but that is usually why rendered stuff looks somewhat bad at this pixelated zoom level
05:33<andythenorth>planetmaker: no :)
05:33<andythenorth>not at all
05:33<argoneus>by the way
05:33<V453000>it isnt Eddi :) 32bpp allows sub-pixel transitions
05:33<@planetmaker>pew :)
05:33<argoneus>why does yeti make my game lag a little when zoomed out? isn't it just a sprite like any other?
05:33<V453000>it is
05:33<argoneus>and I don't even think it's my computer
05:34<V453000>but 128 times that amount XD
05:34<V453000>try increasing sprite cache
05:34<V453000>I have 256
05:34<argoneus>where do you increase that?
05:34<argoneus>ah ok
05:34<argoneus>I'll try
05:35<@planetmaker>andythenorth, for all I know there's ttd rivers, your rivers, mb's, zeph's and some by leppka
05:35<V453000>I think default is 64 or something
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05:35<argoneus>it's probably that, then
05:35<argoneus>my computer should have no reason to struggle with the game
05:35<@planetmaker>and all rivers are basically like canals except it's grass border instead of stone
05:35<V453000>I heard from many people that it helps a ton to increase the sprite cache
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: just because the game is 20 years old doesn't mean it can't push modern computers to the limits
05:36<andythenorth>planetmaker: the square corners…
05:36<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: well, I have an overclocked 4670k and a GTX 770
05:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth, exactly. And with a bit of programming trickery and more sprites one can do with less square corners
05:36<argoneus>if the game pushed that to the limit
05:36<argoneus>I would be surprised
05:36<@planetmaker>like in ogfx+landscape I have truely vertical and horizontal rivers, and that works
05:36<V453000>1 core matters
05:36<argoneus>I have yet to see something push it to the limit
05:37<V453000>go load pzg2013 and say again :)
05:37<argoneus>4.2 ghz :<
05:37<@planetmaker>and in pota-ghat with the 4x zoom one can make a bit more wiggle-waggle river borders, too, so that it looks more natural
05:37<argoneus>and the latest i5 architecture
05:37<@planetmaker>similar for sea shores
05:37<argoneus>V453000: what is pzg?
05:37<V453000>pro zone game
05:37<V453000>5000 trains
05:37<liq3>V453000: That game lags when I zoom out. o.o
05:37<V453000>wrecks shit
05:37<argoneus>is pro zone meant for people like you
05:37<@planetmaker>it's managed by people like him ;)
05:37<V453000>well that game is kind of my personal game but it is meant for everybody
05:38<V453000>who knows some basics and wants to build
05:38<argoneus>so unless I can make junctions with 8 lines from each side, I am not good enough
05:38<@planetmaker>it's a server for the die-hard crazy builders
05:39<V453000>with 0 games in 2014 ._.
05:39<@planetmaker>none of that stuff is built from scratch really. It all evolved in hours of play time
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>they all died hard
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05:39<argoneus>so let's say I am tempted to make some sort of tutorial
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05:40<liq3>There a way to show FPS ingame?
05:40<argoneus>what kind of is needed?
05:40<argoneus>I mean
05:40<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause said there were all sorts of things
05:40<argoneus>tutorials, video tutorials, game scripts
05:40<argoneus>I'm not sure where one could contribute in that sense
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: a) filtering out things that actually give bad advice (like explaining block signals first, and then path signals), and b) putting it in places where newbies will actually come across them
05:42<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: why is a) bad?
05:42<argoneus>block signals are much more easy to understand
05:42<argoneus>because there's no black magic
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>a) they are not, b) path signals are both easier and more powerful, if you teach them the proper way of thinking
05:42<@peter1138>No they're not.
05:42<SpComb>as long as you don't explain presignals
05:43<SpComb>apart from "avoid using these for anything"
05:43<@peter1138>We only kept block signals for compatibility.
05:43<argoneus>I'll try writing a short writeup on signals
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>if you teach them thinking in block signals first, the path signals indeed seem like "black magic"
05:43<argoneus>and consult with you here
05:43<argoneus>is that okay?
05:43<@peter1138>First versions were path-signals only :D
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>because they are a huge paradigm shift
05:44<argoneus>but i dunno
05:44<argoneus>block signals are like
05:44<argoneus>here's a railroad, here's a signal, this signal works until next signal, it does this, okay
05:44<SpComb>it's far preferrable to use path-signals only, as opposed to using block signals and then mixing in other things as well
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05:44<argoneus>here's a path signal
05:44<argoneus>it does SOMETHING and RESERVES the BEST path based on SOME penalties
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: see, that is the wrong way of thinking about signals.
05:44<V453000>argoneus: see, even the developers do not understand waht is good for the game, everybody propagates path signals because they are noobs
05:45<SpComb>block signals alone are simpler, but... block signals alone are fairly useless/limiting, you have to use some more complicated signals as well
05:45<SpComb>and at that point block signals become more complicated than just pure path signals
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: a path signal is "the train may wait here without blocking any other train"
05:45<argoneus>maybe I am biased
05:45<V453000>there is po point in creating proper tutorial if devs tell you otherwise
05:45<argoneus>but yesterday I joined a server
05:45<argoneus>and someone used these so called amazing easy to use path signals
05:46<argoneus>just why
05:46<V453000>2way PBS is especially worst
05:46<V453000>== is default
05:46<@peter1138>People do that with block signals too.
05:46<V453000>least intuitive signal
05:46<V453000>looks like 1way
05:46<V453000>is 2way
05:46<V453000>default for new players
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: there is nothing "wrong" with that setup
05:46<@peter1138>V453000 obviously hasn't got over the paradigm shift.
05:47<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: there isn't nothing wrong in the way it works
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>except that most of the signals are useless
05:47<argoneus>but it's wrong conceptually
05:47<argoneus>there could be block signals everywhere except the one at the entrance to the station
05:47<argoneus>and it would work the same
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: so?
05:47<argoneus>arguably even there could be a block signal
05:48<argoneus>I dunno
05:48<argoneus>maybe I think too much programming wise
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: a path signal is never worse than a block signal
05:48<argoneus>doesn't the game calculate the best path every time you go past one
05:48<argoneus>(path signal)
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: so there is nothing wrong with path signals everywhere
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: no, it only calculates paths when there is an actual choice
05:48<argoneus>so when there isn't, it behaves like a block signal?
05:49<SpComb>I suppose the main point to path signas re a tutorial is that they're the only thing you'll ever need if you know how to use them properly. The main point of a tutorial..
05:50<argoneus>I just think
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: the main point of a tutorial should be to give the least amount of information necessary to create useful stuff. and in that respect, path signals are faaaaaar superior
05:50<argoneus>that block signals always work much more obviously
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05:50<argoneus>path signals do black magic when you put them before a junction
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: i disagree
05:50<argoneus>they work, and they work great
05:51<argoneus>but a new player will not see what happened there
05:51<argoneus>and will just use path signals as an all powerful magic wand
05:51<@peter1138>There is no black magic.
05:51<argoneus>to get his trains where he needs
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: if you teach them block signals, the immediate followup is "how do i get them to wait for a free platform?"
05:51<SpComb>argoneus: block signals work great if they're the only kind of signal you would ever need. But they're not. Teaching block signals is short-sighted
05:51<argoneus>I would teach all of them
05:51<argoneus>explain pros and cons of all
05:51<@peter1138>Path signals are the only kind of signal you need.
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: if you teach them path signals, the answer to that is: "just remove the signals where it shouldn't be waiting"
05:51<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: actually, I had a situation where path signals were worse than block signals.
05:52<liq3>The trains were stopping at the path signal for no reason. Block signals fixed it.
05:52<argoneus>I didn't mean to preach that block signals > path signals
05:52<argoneus>I meant to say
05:52<argoneus>okay you have these two types
05:52<argoneus>you use this for X, this for Y, sometimes these are better
05:52<argoneus>usually you want to use these
05:52<SpComb>argoneus: exactly, and once you explain pre-signals you've screwed up imo. Nobody should be using presignals
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: but "teach all of them" is what all the signal tutorials out there already do, and that just produces people saying "this is all waaaaay to complex and complicated for me."
05:52<argoneus>from what I've read
05:53<argoneus>most tutorials explain all the signals
05:53<argoneus>and show use cases for all of them
05:53<liq3>SpBot: Presignals are important in a lot of ways.
05:53<argoneus>but don't tell you why you should ne using which
05:53<@peter1138>Most start with block signals, which is crap.
05:53<argoneus>there are use cases for pre signals
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: while all that is useful information for pro-gamers, this should NOT be in a tutorial
05:54<argoneus>then how about
05:54<argoneus>first I would explain path signals, what they do, how they are used properly
05:54<argoneus>and then
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>and then nothing
05:54<argoneus>"the game also features an older type of signals, blabla"
05:54<liq3>Actually, I kind of have to agree. For newbies, path signals are fine.
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>teach them other stuff
05:54<liq3>Newbies don't need block signals.
05:54<argoneus>I mean like
05:54<argoneus>let them know
05:54<argoneus>you are fine with these
05:54<argoneus>but if you would like to know more
05:54<argoneus>read this
05:54<@peter1138>Seasoned players don't need block signals either.
05:54<liq3>peter1138: yes we do?
05:54<@peter1138>Some players think they do.
05:55<argoneus>peter1138: how do you make priority lines with just path signals?
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>only crazy people like V think they need block signals
05:55<@peter1138>Becauase they like to do weird crap with crazyassed priority systems and the like.
05:55<argoneus>it's not crazy assed
05:55<@peter1138>argoneus, I have never in my life needed to make a "priority line".
05:55<argoneus>you don't want a huge full train stop for a small poop train leaving a station
05:55<argoneus>esp. if it has low acceleration
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>make a timetable
05:55<liq3>peter1138: you ever had a factory on a 256x256 map producing 10,000 goods a month?
05:55<argoneus>so I should explain timetables to newbies instead of block signas?
05:56<liq3>and all the trains from it sharing the same mainline as everything else....
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05:56<@peter1138>One or another train needs to stop to let another train go. I couldn't care less which train actually goes first.
05:56<argoneus>it's not difficult
05:56<argoneus>the tutorial could have 2 parts
05:56<argoneus>"getting started" and "advanced concepts"
05:57<argoneus>first part would be all you need to make money and not have your trains crash
05:57<@peter1138>"Stupid concepts" < fixed that for you
05:57<liq3>I should go remove all the priorities on my network to see how much it jams...
05:57<argoneus>second part would be a showcase of more robust things you can do with the game
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05:57<@peter1138>If you have so many trains that they are stopping all the time to let others in... make more lines.
05:57<argoneus>if you don't want to read it, don't
05:57<liq3>peter1138: I already have LLL_RRR mainline. 4 would get even more excessive.
05:57<argoneus>I'll just try writing something up later
05:58<argoneus>and then ask you for opinions
05:58<argoneus>it's actually good people here have different opinions
05:58<argoneus>variety is always good
05:58<argoneus>gives more insight
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: maybe you should have made different choices before you even got to the point of a "LLL_RRR" setup?
05:59<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: It was LL_RR before. I had to expand it to 3 to deal with cargo production.
05:59<liq3>Admittedly, I set myself the limition of a signal mainline, so.
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>i've never ever had the need for a LL_RR setup either
06:00<@peter1138>I always wondered why people chose L and R as directions...
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>my maps end up looking like this:,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB)
06:00<@peter1138>Lost? Return?
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i thought "left track" and "right track"
06:00<liq3>peter1138: it's just left/rigth.
06:01<@peter1138>left and right don't indicate the direction at all though. They indicate position. And you already know the position.
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: yes, but "all left tracks go into the same direction" is all the relevant information at that point
06:02<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, see, that is a beautiful game. I am only missing the connectors to hook up another segment on the left-bottom edge :-)
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>and it has not a single block signal on it :p
06:04<argoneus>do all signals cost the same maintenance money?
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>there's an urban myth that path signals need more CPU power, but no evidence was ever brought up to support that claim
06:06<argoneus>I wonder
06:06<argoneus>can I put my tutorial anywhere I want on the wiki?
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's a wiki
06:07*argoneus has never added content to someone else's wiki
06:07<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, probably based on this misconception that path signals do path finding...
06:07<argoneus>on the normal wiki
06:07<argoneus>the power users always slapped m yshit
06:07<argoneus>whenever I added anything
06:07<argoneus>called me a vandal etc
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you are
06:07<argoneus>peter1138: they don't?
06:08<dih>hello :-)
06:08<argoneus>I mean, don't they reserve a path?
06:08<argoneus>and don't they have to find a path first
06:08<@peter1138>No, trains themselves do that.
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>no. trains reserve a path, not signals
06:08<@peter1138>And trains pathfind whenever they encounter a choice.
06:08<@peter1138>Path signals by themselves are not a choice.
06:09<@peter1138>Assuming you take the same route, there is an equal amount of pathfinding regardless of signal type.
06:09<@peter1138>It's possible that block signals actually do more work, because they explicitly have to check the status of every other signal in each block.
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>there may be even _less_ pathfinding involved, because in a "block" a train may pathfind on every junction tile, but in a "path", all junction tiles until the next signal is processed at the same time
06:10<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, :-)
06:10<blathijs>iii/win 20
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>i want to win 20 as well :/
06:12<@peter1138>Would be interesting to see the evidence for this "slower" claim though.
06:12<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: This is my Factory stations
06:12<@peter1138>There was the whole 'massive' overhead in marking the path itself...
06:13<@peter1138>Ok gotta close Eddi|zuHause's artwork, it's crapping my browser out :S
06:14<@peter1138>And liq3's picture is just ugly.
06:14<@peter1138>Ah well, I guess I play for aesthetics :p
06:15<@peter1138>Not giant multiplatform-but-only-3-tiles-long stations.
06:16<liq3>peter1138: I have trees not drawing for clarity. :p
06:17<liq3>Yeh. That's the difference peter1138. You play for aesthetics, some of us play for crazy throughput. :P
06:17<liq3>Can't do high throughput without pre-signals.
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe you just haven't tried properly?
06:18<liq3>I just disabled my priorities on my sideline hubs. The network is grinding to a halt, due to all the delays from joining trains on the mainline. :D
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>if you have a timetabled conflict-free network, then you don't need presignals
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06:19<liq3>I'm not timetabling 250 trains. o.o
06:20<argoneus>you don't need presignals if you code your own priority system!
06:20<argoneus>thus presignals are useless
06:20<@peter1138>Feel free.
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>i would have ripped out presignals years ago...
06:22<argoneus>but sometimes you really need them
06:22<argoneus>if you have a huge station and one path signal
06:22<argoneus>it might send the train into unoptimal paths
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>then remove these paths
06:22<argoneus>since it only calculates so far ahead
06:23<@planetmaker>block signals do even less look-ahead
06:23<liq3>I did find a situation where path signals stopped the trains for no reason.
06:23<argoneus>but you can place more presignals
06:23<@peter1138>Trains always plan the whole route.
06:23<argoneus>you can place combo signals
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: "no reason" != "i didn't understand the reason"
06:24<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: Block signals fixed it.
06:24<liq3>So it's a path signal specific issue. :p
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: i'm sure avoiding black cats also fixed issues
06:24<argoneus>didnt V453000 point out some scenarios where path signals did more bad than good a while ago?
06:25<argoneus>or maybe it was someone else
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06:25<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: what you mean is not a "fix", but a "workaround"
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06:26<liq3>Eddi|zuHause; well yes.
06:26<Jinassi>good afternoon, Planetmaker, any news about the desync logs from last week?
06:26<@peter1138>My car didn't start, so I didn't bother finding out what, I just replaced it.
06:26<@peter1138>(Turns out it was out of fuel, crazy black magic huh?)
06:27<argoneus>I just don't see why peter1138 is so set on this
06:27<argoneus>is it bad to admit that pre signals have their use?
06:27<argoneus>and that path signals aren't fine for EVERYTHING but only like 90% of use cases?
06:27<@peter1138>11:21 < Eddi|zuHause> i would have ripped out presignals years ago...
06:27<argoneus>or less
06:27<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, hell yes, and block signals :D
06:28<@peter1138>Like the original path signals patch. That was awesome.
06:28<argoneus>isn't there a reason they were re-added? :<
06:28<@peter1138>They weren't readded. They were just not removed, so that old games would be compatible still.
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: yes, 0.1% of people crying "... but my extremely specialized setup..."
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: so it's not 90% but more like 99.9%, and those 0.1% are actually shortcomings in some other features
06:29<liq3>I think I see what the issue is.
06:29<liq3>Just checked my save.
06:30<liq3>Something to do with trains leaving a station with a bypass.
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06:30<liq3>They'll wait for the train to leave the platform instead of using the bypass (which leads to more platforms for the same station).
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: then your "occupied platform" penalty isn't large enough for the bypass
06:30<Jinassi>do you have non-stop orders?
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: that's an almost trivial fix
06:31<liq3>If the station is full and no trains are leaving, they use the bypass no problem.
06:31<@peter1138>Do you have tons of signals on the bypass?
06:31<liq3>well, first 5 platforms are full.
06:31<liq3>peter1138: yes.
06:31<@peter1138>Well there you go.
06:32<@peter1138>That increases the penalty of the bypass
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: so you mean the platform is actually free, just no signal behind it?
06:32<liq3>...I'll post the screenshot.
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: that's actually a shortcoming of the pathfinder, it won't add any penalties for things happening behind the platform
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>so if you don't have a signal directly behind the platform, things appear to "break"
06:33<liq3>Problem signal is the bottom right path signal.
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>no, the "problem" is the time between leaving the platform, and leaving the tile behind the platform which has no signal on it
06:35<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: yes.
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>just put signals there, and everything will be fine
06:35<liq3>The train that reaches the path signal waits for the train to leave, instead of using the bypass.
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>immediately behind the platform
06:35<liq3>they're 1 tile behind it...
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they must be 0 tiles behind it
06:36<liq3>let's find out. ;p
06:36<@peter1138>Weird seeing green signals everywhere...
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember trying to fix this shortcoming, but i didn't get anywhere
06:37<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: nope still happens.
06:37<liq3>Less frequently though.
06:38<liq3>Pre-signals don't have the problem. :p
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: yes, because there is a signal _before_ the platform which adds the pathfinder penalty, not _behind_
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>which is, again, a workaround. not a fix
06:39<liq3>it's because the combo/exit signals are red, so they immediately choose the only green signal, I'm pretty sure
06:39<liq3>though admittedly that's probably implemented with penalties.
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>"lastred" penalty
06:40<liq3>does OpenTTD have a way to show FPS?
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>it's not a hugely relevant figure for... anything
06:41<@peter1138>It's fixed at 33 fps.
06:41<argoneus>just make a fps counter with path signals
06:41<liq3>peter1138: It drops below that in same games. Want to know what it's dropping to.
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like you die from low fps
06:41<@peter1138>Seconds are extended if necessary.
06:41<liq3>I'm also guessing that this game doesn't use GPU acceleration?
06:42<argoneus>I think SDL does
06:42<liq3>SDL blitting doesn't.
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>2D acceleration
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>the blitting doesn't, but pushing the framebuffer onto the screen does
06:42<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: that doesn't mean it's using the GPU. :p
06:43<liq3>I noticed because when I zoom out on PZG2013, it lags, but GPU is still only 25%.
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: ever tried to use the game on a machine that _actually_ doesn't have 2D acceleration and draws the screen pixel by pixel?
06:43<liq3>doesn't lag when zoomed in.
06:43<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: I've made programs that do that. I can imagine the fractional FPS.
06:43<@peter1138>It slowed down because there is FUCK LOADS of stuff to draw.
06:43<liq3>peter1138: Odd it only used 25% of my GPU to draw all that.
06:44<@peter1138>It used your CPU to draw it.
06:44<liq3>And there's the problem. :P
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: the framebuffer stays the same size, so GPU usage does not depend on zoom level
06:44<@peter1138>Nope, it's a 2D game.
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>only on window size
06:44<liq3>I'm pretty sure 2d games benefit from GPU acceleration too. :/
06:45<@peter1138>There have been attempts at using 3D accelerated blitter, however it works out slower due to the sheer amount of stuff to be drawn.
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>if you have only 2^n sized sprites
06:45<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, pretty sure that limitation is long gone :)
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: people tried making opengl blitters before, they usually turned out slower than what we already have
06:46<liq3>"blitters" >.>
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's what it's called... i didn't invent the word
06:47<liq3>...I just looked up the word Blitter on wiki... ugh
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: basically you throw a large number of sprites on it, and it tries to figure out what's drawn in front of what
06:49<liq3>what version of SDL does OpenTTD use?
06:49<liq3>Ah well, I imagine proper GPU usage would fix the slow downs, but I doubt it's worth anyone's time to code it.
06:49<__ln__>liq3: do you intend to say something about SDL and OS X?
06:49<@peter1138>It wouldn't.
06:50<@peter1138>Anyway, you run into the issue of colour mapping.
06:50<liq3>Nah, just found a reddit article that says SDL 2.0 uses the GPU.
06:51<@peter1138>And we do some palette animation too.
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>palette animation is a lost concept, i'm afraid :p
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>like modern GPUs dropping 8bpp acceleration and stuff
06:52<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, paletted texture support is fading out, iirc.
06:53<@peter1138>Support for the EXT_paletted_texture extension has been dropped by the major GL vendors. If you really need paletted textures on new hardware, you may use shaders to achieve that effect.
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: so in all likelyhood, if you port blitting to the GPU, you have to drop a lot of features
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>or it will stop working in the near future
06:53<@peter1138>I think if you did it's an all-or-nothing change.
06:54<liq3>It only really affects people that make 1000+ train maps anyway.
06:54<@peter1138>liq3, not really
06:54<liq3>...Right, I forget I have a good GPU
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>on 1000+ train maps you have different issues than GPU acceleration
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>the 1000+ sprites that trains add make virtually no difference
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>compared to the 1 million trees
06:57<Jinassi>animations make a huge impact
06:57<@peter1138>If it really lags though, you can try dropping your max zoom in level. If that improves it, edit the sprite cache size. Or something.
06:57<@peter1138>Palette animation does, yeah.
06:58<Jinassi>we tested running server with grf that have the option to turn off the palette animations an it worked wonders on load
06:58<@peter1138>Palette animation is a game option, not a GRF option.
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>there's a setting for that, you know
06:58<liq3>doubling the sprite cache seemed to have helped. Hard to tell without a FPS counter tho.
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>also, the (dedicated) server throws all that stuff out
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we should invest in dynamic sprite cache allocation
07:00<@peter1138>On a sane OS, if you allocate tons of sprite cache memory, it won't actually be allocated unless it's used.
07:00<@peter1138>Not sure about Windows.
07:02<Jinassi>It reserves memory and if you do not have enough memory to be allocated for more clients it reminds you it cannot allocated given size and lowers it.
07:02<liq3>...Switching to OpenGL would fix it. The claim that it's "too many sprites" it's simply silly. Modern games have models made up of thousands of triangles. :/
07:03<liq3>CPUs just aren't good at rendering graphics. :/
07:03<@peter1138>triangles are not sprites.
07:03<liq3>Yes they are. How do you think the GPU textures them?
07:03<liq3>They're actually more complicated....
07:03<@peter1138>triangles are triangles.
07:04<@peter1138>Textures are mapped to a complete mesh.
07:04<liq3>You're really claiming 2d sprites would demand more GPU power than a 10,000+ triangle textured 3d model?
07:06<@peter1138>1) There's several thousand sprites loaded. Most 3D games get away with reusing a smaller number of textures
07:06<@peter1138>2) There's still CPU time involved in telling the GPU what to do
07:07<liq3>You load all the sprites into the VRAM, and then the CPU is just telling the GPU where to put them. :/
07:07<@peter1138>That's mostly because the game architecture isn't designed for the way 3D stuff works
07:07<liq3>I think. I haven't done gfx programming recently.
07:08<liq3>Yeh. i get that.
07:08<liq3>I don't even think it's worth changing it over.
07:08<@peter1138>In OTTD, not everything is drawn every frame
07:08<@peter1138>With 3D acceleration, you either need to do that or faff about with some magic.
07:09<liq3>I'm pretty sure you can just not draw certain things.
07:10<@peter1138>You could probably use a PBO or whatever the current least-deprecated method is.
07:10<liq3>Shaders is the current method.
07:11<liq3>I'm pretty sure even PBOs are out dated.
07:11<@peter1138>Shaders don't replace PBOs
07:11<@peter1138>Shaders replace a particular use of PBOs though.
07:11<liq3>Yeh i dunno. I haven't done it in ages.
07:11<liq3>Ah. Might be PBOs + shaders then.
07:11<@peter1138>You're thinking of things like bloom.
07:11<liq3>Nah I'm thinking of drawing methods in opengl.
07:11<liq3>Direct got removed ages ago.
07:11<liq3>There was another one, and then another. I think PBO was the fastest? Don't remember.
07:12<@planetmaker>liq3, if you know your stuff around, it surely is a nice challenge to improve on the previous incarnation of the OpenGL blitter? :)
07:12<@planetmaker>we can be convinced, if things are backed up by actual profiling data
07:12<liq3>I don't. I've done like a single tutorial on opengl. xD
07:12<liq3>I'd have to learn it all again. :D
07:12<@peter1138>Ah, and expert then.
07:13<liq3>Hey, I've made 2d programs in opengl. ;<
07:13<@peter1138>12:02 < liq3> ...Switching to OpenGL would fix it. The claim that it's "too many sprites" it's simply silly. Modern games have models made up of thousands of triangles. :/
07:13<@peter1138>I'm glad you are able to substantiate that based on your extensive ability in opengl.
07:15<@peter1138>Every time a tile is drawn, there is a function called that determines what should be drawn, and adds to a list of sprites. This itself can take quite some CPU time.
07:16<@planetmaker>and couldn't be done by gpu :)
07:16<@peter1138>Of course, because not every tile is drawn all the time, that's alleviated.
07:16<@peter1138>It's not something you can even speed up with VBOs.
07:17<@peter1138>You'd need to keep state on exactly what was drawn last time to know if you need to update the VBO.
07:18<liq3>peter1138: about polygon counts...
07:18<@peter1138>liq3, sprites are not polygons.
07:18<liq3>yes they are
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>no, they are also textures
07:19<@peter1138>No, sprites are not polygons.
07:19<@peter1138>Sprites are textures.
07:20<argoneus>aren't all the sprites drawn to a buffer
07:20<argoneus>which is then drawn all at once
07:20<argoneus>instead of drawing sprites one by one
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>and liq3 wants to change that
07:20<@peter1138>Yes, that's doing the drawing with the CPU.
07:21<argoneus>polygons don't exist in 2d
07:21<argoneus>sprites don't exist in 3d
07:21<@peter1138>textures exist in 3d, they're pretty much the same thing.
07:21<argoneus>can textures be animated?
07:22<@peter1138>Generally you just use multiple textures for that.
07:22<argoneus>but with sprites
07:22<argoneus>you can have sprite sheets
07:22<argoneus>with animations
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>the game uses two types of animation
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>palette animation that exchanges all pixels of one colour with another colour
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>and sprite animation which just changes which sprite is drawn
07:23<@peter1138>Oh, yeah, you can use a larger texture and just map the bit you want onto the object, though I imagine that's not used much these days.
07:24<argoneus>oh :<
07:24<@peter1138>Ok, so we can use shaders to implement palette animation. That does mean we have to redraw the whole scene every frame.
07:24<@peter1138>I would suggest changing to an event-based model.
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: may as well just make the whole game 3D then :p
07:26<@peter1138>Split the scenery up into chunks, each chunk is a display list (or whatever the latest least deprecated feature is now)
07:26<@peter1138>When a tileloop is processed and a tile changes, update that chunk.
07:26<@peter1138>Then you can just render the chunks
07:26<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, exactly.
07:27<liq3>sorry, playing a game, talk later.
07:27<argoneus>dat cop out
07:27<@peter1138>Ok, expert.
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>what would we ever do without expert
07:28<argoneus>if I write up some sort of tutorial, can I get some constructive feedback from you guys?
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>like every newspaper that employs "terror experts" these days
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07:29<argoneus>hm, there is a tutorial
07:29<argoneus>but it's rather lengthy
07:31<@peter1138>Hmm, did the signal UI default to only path signals yet?
07:31<@peter1138>That was a question.
07:32<argoneus>I know
07:32<argoneus>but you said "did it do X yet"
07:32<argoneus>and I
07:32<argoneus>m wondering how long ago you mean
07:32<argoneus>by yet
07:32<argoneus>doesn't it default now?
07:33<@peter1138>Hmm, I think it can only show all signals.
07:33<argoneus>ohh, like that
07:33<argoneus>that no other signal is available?
07:34<@planetmaker>peter1138, it shows all signals. But there's a setting to cycle through path signals or all signals when ctrl+clicking
07:35<@peter1138>Hmm, default bus doesn't have enough power to reach top speed.
07:35<@peter1138>(Foster MKII Superbus)
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07:36<V453000>realistic acceleration for RVs doesnt make sense in general
07:36<@peter1138>Wonder where those default power values came from...
07:36<@planetmaker>peter1138, I believe they were made up from thin air
07:37<@peter1138>V453000, how so?
07:37<V453000>RVs are no trains, they need to slow down on hills, they need to slow down in curves etc
07:37<V453000>if they dont do that, there is nothing interesting about them, they dont have any problem to solve
07:37<V453000>their slowing in curves with realistic acceleation is almost none
07:38<V453000>uphill is similar
07:38<V453000>even with 10%
07:38<V453000>vs. the slow acceleration
07:38<V453000>RVs have no means to solve the bad acceleration, the player cant do anything about it or invent a method to improve that
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07:40<argoneus>do PBS let trains reserve paths until the next signal or until the destination?
07:41<@peter1138>Signal, in general.
07:41<@planetmaker>trains decide on a new path when they reach any junction
07:41<@planetmaker>and reserve paths at signals
07:42<@peter1138>I don't think anything should be using the term "PBS" though.
07:43<@peter1138>I'm so glad we removed the old PBS before release :D
07:44<@peter1138>planetmaker, was that before your time?
07:44<@planetmaker>I started between 0.4.5 and 0.5.3
07:45<@planetmaker>but really only got into things when 0.5.3 was around
07:46<@peter1138>It was "funny" because we'd waited so long (well, it seemed like it at the time) to have PBS in, and it was there for a while... then we decided to remove it fairly soon before release. Just like that, heh.
07:46<@peter1138>It was pretty broken though, and never fixed the two-way station problem.
07:47<@planetmaker>I heard similar a few times. But I actually never tested that first incarnation
07:47<@peter1138>It was beautiful when it worked...
07:47<@peter1138>No where near as elegant as path signals are though.
07:48<@peter1138>It broke the promise that trains would never crash if you didn't mess with layout.
07:49<@planetmaker>that's basically what killed it, I guess
07:49<@peter1138>That would be what V453000 calls a BAD FEATURE
08:00<liq3>peter1138: Games frequently have character models with 50,000+ polys. :/
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08:18<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: but maybe like 100 textures
08:18<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: the entire thing is textured. The GPU has to map the texture to the 50k+ polygons in '3d' space.
08:18<liq3>There is no way drawing a few thousand 2d sprites is harder. :P
08:19<argoneus>it depends on your engine
08:19<liq3>Yes. I'm talking about properly coded GPU usage.
08:19<V453000>why are you guys discussing this when openttd will never get 3D engine anyway :D
08:20<liq3>peter1138 and Eddi|zuHause were insisting OpenGL wouldn't fix the lag problems. :<
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: but there are still only 100 different textures
08:20<argoneus>what lag problems
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>instead of 10000
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>or 100000
08:20<liq3>argoneus: load up PGZ2013 and zoom all the way out. :p
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>that is 3 orders of magnitude
08:20<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: it's really irrelevant to a GPU :/
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>no it's not
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>there's a bottleneck getting all this data to the GPU and stuff
08:21<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: You can probably just load every single sprite into VRAM when you load a save.
08:21<argoneus>can you really
08:22<argoneus>you do realize
08:22<liq3>Even YETI is only 110mb, and that's 32bpp.
08:22<argoneus>when you have any sort of animation in 3d
08:22<argoneus>it's not the textures that are changing
08:22<argoneus>but with sprites
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: but that is 110 COMPRESSED mb
08:22<argoneus>you have a different sprite for every animation
08:22<liq3>argoneus: Yes. There's ways to implement sprite animation with 3d hardware.
08:22<argoneus>so for every possible sprite, and every possible animation it has
08:22<argoneus>you'd need to store that on your video memory
08:23<@peter1138>I've got enough video memory.
08:23<@peter1138>But I'd have to stop playing it on my laptop.
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: again, there HAVE been opengl implementations, they ALL turned out SLOWER than what we have now.
08:24<liq3>argoneus: You'd probably have sprite sheets (a single texture you only draw some of), or individual textuser for each sprite frame.
08:24<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: how were they implemented?
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>because the CPU is busier shoving all this data onto the GPU than it would be just handling it by itself
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: look it up?
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: it's all buried in the forum somewhere, or the chat logs
08:26<argoneus>I can't believe people are complaining about the performance of a game that runs on a pentium II
08:26<@peter1138>coo, 2008 :)
08:26<liq3>I don't really care, it's just a minor annoyance.
08:27<argoneus>I mean
08:27<argoneus>this game runs on a fucking phone
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>phones nowadays have way more processing power than a pentium II
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>although when i first got TT, my 386-SX 25 had problems with more than like 10 trains...
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>when i got to 80 trains (maximum), it was like 0.5 fps
08:31<@peter1138>Bet you wish it had GPU acceleration.
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08:31<Pikkaphone>if wishes were fishes we'd all get wet
08:31<@peter1138>Possibly the 32bpp remapping algorithm could be done with shaders now.
08:32<@peter1138>That's a lot of new code though.
08:32<@peter1138>Someone will want particle effects...
08:32<liq3>Make the smoke particle effects. particle effects for the brakes. :D
08:33<@peter1138>Then someone will complain that it's OpenGL instead of DirectX11...
08:34<@peter1138>There's a game I play where they have JUST updated the engine to use DirectX9 and Shader Model 2 shaders.
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>Pikkaphone: one of the monkey island games had a "fishing well"
08:34<@peter1138>Previously it was DirectX 8 and presumably whatever shaders that supports.
08:34<Pikkaphone>surely making openttd full 3d would be really easy to do?
08:34<liq3>OpenGL is better just for being cross platform.
08:34<Pikkaphone>just map the pixels to a 3d engine
08:34<liq3>Pikkaphone: not likely. I'm going to check the source code soon just to find out tho.
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>Pikkaphone: yes, just install train fever.
08:34<@peter1138>And so... there are now complaints from people whose computers can no longer run it.
08:35<@peter1138>Because they're using 2004 graphics cards that worked fine before.
08:35<liq3>Pikkaphone: also, if you mean 3d models, that would be huge amounts of work.
08:35<@peter1138>Pikkaphone, we got a live one :D
08:35<Pikkaphone>yikes :)
08:35<argoneus>make openttd support 3d glasses
08:36<argoneus>I want to see trains in my room
08:36<@planetmaker>asking for oculus rift support is an old feature request ;)
08:36<@peter1138>3D glasses for a game with orthogonal projection...
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, about a week old :p
08:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, nah, surely several months
08:36<argoneus>planetmaker: was that a "hehe xD" request
08:36<argoneus>or was it serious
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: didn't see that
08:37<Pikkaphone>if it was andythenorth making it, hard to tell
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>[Freitag, 23. August 2013] [23:43:16] <__ln__> will there be support for oculus rift?
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>so over a year even
08:38<Pikkaphone>3ds port?
08:39<@peter1138>Bin it.
08:39<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, 16 months:
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure if i paid more than 10 seconds of attention to that thread back then :p
08:41<@planetmaker>I did as long as I typed the answer. Maybe 15 seconds?
08:43<V453000>just shows what kind of idiots visits tt-f :D
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that certainly wasn't in my mind anymore when i learned what an oculus rift actually is
08:44<@planetmaker>I recon oculus rift was a thing already then. dunno anymore, though
08:44<argoneus>when oculus rift started being a thing
08:45<argoneus>it was all porn and horror
08:45<argoneus>is openttd either of those?
08:45<V453000>yes both
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>i always get scared when PBI plays this explosion sound
08:46<@planetmaker>the horror of glitching sprites, wrong stats and the porn of long vehicles uncensored version
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>that is clearly one of the worst BAD FEATURES of all times :p
08:47<V453000>trains going in and out of tunnels
08:47<V453000>quite explicit
08:47<V453000>even worse, some of them are slugs
08:48<@peter1138>if your trains glitch going into tunnels, your offsets are probably wrong
08:49<@peter1138>or you're using zbase, although that's just the same reason really.
08:49<argoneus>zbase is art
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>or these czech tunnels
08:49<@peter1138>zbase is crap sorry
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>"art" does not automatically mean "good"
08:49<Pikkaphone>can anyone be bothered giving the real answer?
08:50<@peter1138>Pikkaphone, no
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>Pikkaphone: planes are special cased to ignore mail
08:50<Pikkaphone>I know that, eddi
08:50<Pikkaphone>fair enough, peeter
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>that is the real answer?
08:51<@peter1138>Allocating 2.00GiB of spritecache failed...
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, then i'm certainly not bothered :)
08:51<@peter1138>Hmm, but it's only set to 512 :S
08:51<Pikkaphone>zbase is what it is
08:51<@planetmaker>peter1138, I think the limit for it in OpenTTD is that, 512M?
08:52<@planetmaker>hm... but why 2G then?
08:52<Pikkaphone>as a starting point for 32bpp, it's fine
08:52<@peter1138>planetmaker, I didn't ask it to allocate 2GB.
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it's multiplied by 4 for 32bpp?
08:52<@peter1138>planetmaker, does it x4?
08:52<@planetmaker>peter1138, what? zbase? yes.
08:52<@planetmaker>it has 1x, 2x and 4x sprites
08:52<@peter1138>That's not what I aksed.
08:52<@peter1138>Or asked.
08:52<argoneus>do openttd sprites make heavy use of the alpha channel?
08:52<argoneus>for transparency
08:52<@peter1138>spritecache * 4
08:52<@peter1138>not 4x zoom :S
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: too little data.
08:52<liq3>planetmaker: does the blitter draw the entire scene and then just pass it to the framebuffer?
08:53<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: too little data?
08:53<@peter1138>argoneus, every single ground tile has alpha.
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08:53<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: most sprites have transparent pieces
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08:53<Eddi|zuHause>but it's either 0% or 100%, rarely anything in between
08:53<argoneus>how is transparency done in ttd? alpha channel or some solid color?
08:53<@peter1138>Nearly all vehicle sprites have alpha.
08:53<argoneus>that is then filtered out
08:54<Pikkaphone>alpha in 32bpp
08:54<Pikkaphone>the other in 8bpp
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>in 8bpp mode -> solid colour
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>in 32bpp mode -> alpha
08:54<argoneus>I bet you use magenta
08:54<argoneus>because everyone uses magenta for some reason
08:54<@peter1138>no, blue, but the palette is arbitrary.
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's usually represented as blue, but essentially it's colour index 0
08:54<@peter1138>zbase recolours look shit too :(
08:55<argoneus>so 0 0 255 is transparent always?
08:55<V453000>I have no idae how to make recolours in 32bpp
08:55<@peter1138>no, only index 0
08:55<Pikkaphone>I have an idea
08:55<Pikkaphone>but I don't do it
08:56<V453000>I would like to have at least some details CC-able
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you need some overlay mask
08:56<@peter1138>V453000, basically you make a sprite containing just the recolour parts
08:56<@planetmaker>V453000, look at the water in pota-ghat :)
08:56<Pikkaphone>is fairly well documented, innit?
08:56<@peter1138>then you make it 8bpp and use the recolour indices
08:57<@peter1138>then you adjust brightness on the 32bpp sprite underneath the mask to adjust brightness of the recolour part
08:57<@peter1138>simple ;)
08:57<Pikkaphone>the alternative is making separate sprites for each cc, which is a silly idea
08:57<V453000>grfsize x16 ftw
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, NUTS!
08:57<Pikkaphone>snowballs the size of the grf
08:57<@peter1138>Pikkaphone, very silly
08:58<@peter1138>Pikkaphone, and the hue is wrong!
08:58<@peter1138>Pikkaphone, and it doesn't support RGB recolours!
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>Pikkaphone: well, there are grfs out there that are 50% recolour masks :p
08:58<V453000>fuck RGB recolours where did they go
08:58<@peter1138>i have them here
08:58<@peter1138>did you want them?
08:58<V453000>amazing feature
08:58<@planetmaker>Pikkaphone, can one actually query the CC instead of the companyID?
08:59<Pikkaphone>yes planetmaker
08:59<Pikkaphone>it's how the liveries in pineapple work
08:59<Pikkaphone>also, eg, the boxcars in nars
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>Pikkaphone: did you change the colour names to livery names? :)
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think anyone ever used that feature, since it was introduced...
09:00<@peter1138>damn zbase vehicles being too big :S
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>the one company colour GRF out there was never updated to touch the colour names
09:02<Pikkaphone>also the hue is *different*, not wrong. :p
09:05<Pikkaphone>I certainly wouldn't describe zbase's colour mapping as 'right'
09:06<@peter1138>No, it's not.
09:06<@peter1138>I suspect it falls foul of just using one of the remap colours.
09:07<@peter1138>And just like good CC with 8bpp, you need to use all of them to make good 32bpp CC.
09:07<@peter1138>This is probably quite tricky to do in a sane way with a 3D renderer though.
09:08<@peter1138>It doesn't help that the CC elements in zBase are really really chunky.
09:09<Flygon>Is there any TBRS set that's actually compatible with UKRS?
09:10<Pikkaphone>what's a tbrs?
09:10<Flygon>Total Bridge Renewal Set
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of "compatible" do you mean?
09:11<@peter1138>What makes a bridge set compatible with a train set?
09:11<Flygon>Oh, UK Road Se
09:11<Flygon>Sorry, I forgot ambiguity x.x
09:11<Flygon>Eddi: Asthetically
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: there are TBRS versions for a handful of road sets buried in the forum somewhere
09:12<Flygon>Yeah, I've been trying to find x.x
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>but quite honestly, bridge sets caused me to stick with the default roads.
09:13<Flygon>Ach x.x
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>they're not terrible, and consistency is more important to me.
09:13<Flygon>I never liked the default roads
09:13<Flygon>Long story short... FINALLY want to do a game with the Dutch road furnature
09:14<Flygon>If I can't get that working tho, may's well use the US Road Set
09:17<Flygon>Closest I can find is a modified PCX... but I don't know how to recompile the GRFs for OTTD
09:17<Flygon>And I doubt the Ragnarok Online recompilers I have are very useful
09:17<Flygon>Eh, screwit
09:18<Flygon>America time
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>grfcodec -d and grfcodec -e
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>if the offsets are the same, it shouldn't be hard
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>make sure you change the GRFID
09:19<argoneus>you guys are making me to actually want to try make a newgrf
09:19<argoneus>but I can't into drawing or modelling
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>i can't either. hasn't stopped me.
09:20<Flygon>Aw man
09:20<Flygon>Now I feel guilty for never finishing the Comeng
09:20<Flygon> Been meaning to redo this in voxel form
09:20<Flygon>Because like...
09:20<Flygon>Melbourne has EMUs too :U
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>use pixeltool
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>if that is what the adress is...
09:22<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: what kind of newgrfs did you make?
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: the kind where trains have overlength and many turning angles
09:22<argoneus>also is pixeltool some actual software or do you just mean make pixels
09:23<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: oh you make NARS?
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: find it in the forum
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: no
09:23<argoneus>is it not in bananas?
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09:24<Eddi|zuHause>it's not released
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>due to... missing graphics :p
09:24<Flygon>Arf, I need to work on being able to visualize 3D in my head x.x
09:24<Flygon>I need to get myself some lego bricks
09:25<argoneus>Game running cost (AS): =WENN(ODER((traction_type="Electric");(traction_type="Electric/Narrow");(AC9="3rd Rail");(AC9="Dual Power")); (($AM$604*pow(($N9/$AO$604);$AP$604))*pow(($O9/$AO$605);$AP$605));
09:25<argoneus>is this some excel formula
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but where did you find that?
09:25<argoneus>in the thing you linked?
09:26<argoneus>I was looking for screenshots :<
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>is that shown ingame?
09:26<argoneus>I'm at work
09:26<argoneus>I can't play ttd
09:27<argoneus>seems like pixel art is more about calculating than drawing
09:28<V453000>no just being a fucking liar and pretending there are shapes that the eyes see, but the shapes dont exist in the image
09:28<V453000>all it takes really :)
09:28<argoneus>so I don't need to be able to draw realistic faces to make a pixel art car?
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>not really
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>it may even be counter productive
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09:29<V453000>you totally dont need to do that
09:29<V453000>I cant do that for shit
09:30<argoneus>so for one train
09:30<argoneus>you need
09:30<argoneus>4 sprites?
09:30<argoneus>up, down, diagonal, symmetry?
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>or 24 :)
09:30<V453000>well usually 5 then
09:30<argoneus>5 then
09:31<V453000>up, down, side, diagonal, other diagonal
09:31<V453000>for non-symmetric trains
09:31<argoneus>looks nice Eddi|zuHause
09:31<argoneus>can you draw a human bod
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>i did not draw those vehicles, oberhümer did. but he didn't finish all vehicles. the unfinished one are just coloured boxes
09:32<V453000>oberhumer draws terribly
09:32<V453000>nutracks are something so ugly that it doesnt have equal
09:33<argoneus>that slug
09:33<argoneus>has nice shading
09:33<argoneus>so when you guys do pixel art
09:33<argoneus>you don't make a large picture which you then resize
09:33<argoneus>you make a small picture and zoom in?
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>that image crashes the browser
09:34<V453000>obviously, yes, you draw with 1600% zoom
09:34<V453000>or around that
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09:34<V453000>it is quite small Eddi
09:34<V453000>got a lot bigger ones
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's not about the size
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>i can view it, but when i try to zoom, it crashes
09:35<V453000>doesnt crash my browser
09:35<V453000>well I didnt try that
09:37<argoneus>try this picture
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what that's supposed to be
09:38<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: I dont understand what it is supposed to be -> it is gay
09:38<argoneus>are you using linux
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: that just looks terrible, does not crash :p
09:38<argoneus>on linux
09:39<argoneus>it starts eating your memory
09:39<argoneus>then you get thrashing
09:39<argoneus>and then X crashes
09:39<argoneus>at least it did a while ago, maybe they fixed it
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>only if you do it wrong
09:39<@peter1138>argoneus, if you resized a large image down, it would not be pixel art.
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09:40<argoneus>but that slug thing
09:40<argoneus>it has nice shading
09:40<argoneus>I don't understand shading
09:40<argoneus>is there a consensus where the light comes from in openttd?
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>the consensus is that different people have different consensuses
09:41<@peter1138>Yes, it comes from the sky.
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>and the consensus of the other people is always wrong
09:41<argoneus>so people shade their things from different directions?
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>but mostly it comes either from the right, or from the lower right
09:41<@planetmaker>4:30h to 5:00 is the usual light direction. But it differs somewhat, depending on where you look
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>except when it doesn't
09:42<@peter1138>Let's make everything out of voxels.
09:42<@peter1138>Then apply real-time lighting.
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes it's changed purely for artistic reasons
09:42<@planetmaker>but that direction usually gives best look
09:42<liq3>ew voxel.s
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>there was something recently about one of MB's train sheds being "wrong"
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>cubicles disturb me very
09:43<@planetmaker>it reminds me of the missing undo-knob
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>undo-knob would be fun... makes you single-step through all tree changes of the past second :p
09:45<@peter1138>Yeah, add ^Z, ^X, ^C and ^V support...
09:46<@peter1138>copy & paste, for people who don't like playing the game.
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>in all the years i played with patchpacks that had C&P in them, i have never ever once found a use for it...
09:46<liq3>Because making the same terminal station setup over and over is "playing the game".
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>... or maybe a DIFFERENT terminal station setup?
09:48<Flygon>Ach. What was the option to show how far station's capture population again?
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>new challenge: play a game without using the terraforming tool
09:48<Flygon>Ever since I reformatted the desktop, OTTD has been a mess
09:48<Flygon>Forgot the configuration is not stored in where OTTD is stored because... OTTD
09:49<@peter1138>Because operating systems are multiuser these days.
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: all modern games store data in the personal directory
09:49<Flygon>This shows how often I play modern games, then
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't back that up, it's your own problem...
09:49<Flygon>OTTD is the only game that has ever exhibited this behaviour that I've used O_o
09:50<Flygon>And I've often deliberately avoided using those directories since I was a kid anyway x.x
09:50<Flygon>I'm... weird x.x
09:50<Flygon>But, yeah
09:50<Flygon>Forgot how to show the capture graphics
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>those directories didn't exist when i was a kid...
09:50<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: why would I make a DIFFERENT one? :o
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: because the one you had doesn't fit the map?
09:50<Flygon>Either way, I've always found them confusing
09:51<Flygon>To me, all game stuff goes in game directory, not in some unrelated directory :P
09:51<argoneus>where are the times
09:51<argoneus>when you could build a road over someone else's railroad, then delete the road, and railroad was gone too
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: modern OSes prevent you from changing anything in "the game directory", because viruses and stuff would do that...
09:52<Flygon>And how the heck are they suppose to run practically everything written before 2007?
09:52<argoneus>Flygon: everything modern has config somewhere
09:52<argoneus>appdata, documents, ~/.config ~/.programname
09:52<argoneus>some programs have data in the windows registry!
09:52<@peter1138>Flygon, that's why so many shit games need you to run as administrator...
09:52<Flygon>peter1138: Good point
09:52<Flygon>Ach, it just...
09:52<Flygon>It just ruins me
09:53<Flygon>I was never taught this way, never raised this way
09:53<Flygon>And to me, it makes utterly no sense
09:53<argoneus>the reddit client saves data in its own directory
09:53<argoneus>you can see how they did it
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: that's a compile option
09:53<argoneus>of course it is
09:54<@peter1138>There's a reddit client? I just use my webbrowser.
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>or alternatively, where your openttd.cfg is
09:54<argoneus>peter1138: you play ttd in firefox?
09:54<Flygon>And I still can't find the station capture display option x.x
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i assumed he meant the reddit-community's openttd patchpack
09:54<argoneus>Flygon: what is station capture?
09:55<Flygon>Where it shows the blue tiles where the station is being built
09:55<Flygon>And the white tiles where it captures the houses/apartments
09:55<Flygon>Or industry
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: there's a button in the build station window
09:55<Flygon>Okay, well
09:55<Flygon>I feel dumb.
09:55<argoneus>are you new to the game?
09:55<Flygon>I was trawling everywhere in the advanced settings x.x
09:55<Flygon>New to the game?
09:56<Flygon>No x3
09:56<Flygon>Just arrogant
09:56<argoneus>that ship what the fuck
09:56<argoneus>is this europa universalis
09:56<argoneus>no.. is this anno?
09:57<Flygon>I've just got poor taste in asthetics
09:57<argoneus>it's ok
09:57*argoneus afk hour
09:59<Flygon> Still find of sad I lost the .sav because I assumed the .savs were in the OpenTTD folder instead of the My Documents folder, hahaha
09:59<Flygon>Over 47 games lost :D
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>just restore it from your extensive backups
10:02<Flygon>I'm an idiot that stores everything on his desktop that would be considered backup worthy then saves the entire desktop :P
10:03<Flygon>I assumed too much over games using the /save/ folder in their root, due to the other games I play usually being AoEII, CivII, or, whatever :B
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, that would be different if you played AoE III, Civ IV, or, whatever...
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10:04<Flygon>Hated them both
10:04<Flygon>Well, actually, never played IV
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>and Civ II is not 2007, more like 1997
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>i couldn't get Civ II to run in wine...
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10:05<Flygon>Wait, which Civ II?
10:05<Flygon>There's the MPG and Classic
10:05<Flygon>Linux user?
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>what's MPG?
10:06<Flygon>32-bit Civ II
10:06<Flygon>Multiplayer Gold
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>probably not that
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>last time i tried, it started up, but quickly sound got corrupted and then it crashed
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i probably would get fed up with the ancient game rules within 10 minutes and stop
10:08<Flygon>I do
10:09<Flygon>That's why I do Alpha Centauri :B
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>like when i tried to play freeciv
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>let's see whether this new alpha centauri will be good...
10:09<Flygon>I already gave up
10:09<Flygon>On 'Beyond Earth'
10:09<Flygon>Which is annoying
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>sounded like it's based on civ5
10:09<Pikka>peter1138, people who don't like playing the game should go and write AIs to play it for them
10:10<Pikka>that's my plan
10:10<Flygon>Because both my Ex and my Father are constantly yabbering on about how it's going to be awesome
10:10<Flygon>But the asthetic direction already has me convinced it'll be multiple explicatives
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>whatever... civ5 looked weird like that at first as well
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>but i still found it enjoyable
10:11<Flygon>Lack V on my Steam
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't play alpha centauri nearly as much as civ2
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>which is mainly because my monitor was too dark, and the colour correction disabled itself when switching to 16bit colours
10:14<Flygon>It should've been possible to modify the base palette
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>running "windowed" mode would have sufficed
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>but that didn't seem to have been an option back then
10:14<Flygon>I forgot if they've figured out how to modify the game to do that yet
10:15<Flygon>I still gotta figure out IF palette modification is possible
10:15<Flygon> The default palette is awful for modding
10:16<@peter1138>I've got V on Steam, but... Civ and Civ 2 were the best.
10:16<@peter1138>Maybe I should install Win95 in a VM for Civ 2? :D
10:17<Flygon>Shame I and II'll never get Steamed or GOG'd
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>my civ1 got corrupted at some point because someone tried to patch the german .exe with an english patch
10:17<Flygon>Steam'll never happen because... they lost the source code and borf
10:17<Flygon>And GoG because... GoG
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with GoG now?
10:17<@peter1138>There's always freeciv? ;(
10:18<Flygon>Eddi: Nothing's wrong with it
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>i played a civ4 mod called "planetfall", which was based on alpha centauri
10:18<Flygon>It's just that I doubt they'll ever release it on GoG
10:19<@peter1138>Hmm, I don't appear to have Civ any more :S
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>i don't, either...
10:21<@peter1138>Hmm, I've got civwin!
10:22<@peter1138>Which segfaults wine.
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>i have win 3.11 in dosbox
10:24<@peter1138>8 bit 11 kHz sound effects :D
10:24<Flygon>I hear those figures
10:24<Flygon>And I think of those experiments with the Mega Drive...
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>the... what?
10:25<Flygon>1988 hardware?
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>we didn't have any hardware before 1989
10:26<Flygon>Made Sonic the Hedgehog famous?
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>i've never played that
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>also, i've never owned a console
10:26<Flygon>I'll ultra-simplify this
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10:27<Flygon>It was an Amiga that took cartridges and had an FM based sound system (and a DAC) instead of a sample based one
10:27<Flygon>Also it has a Z80 inside it
10:27<Flygon>Alongside the 68k, because... like, it has the letter Z in it
10:27<Flygon>And that's an extremely cool letter
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>i've never got into amiga either
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, what's the point of this historic excourse?
10:30<Xaroth|Work><3 Megadrive
10:30<Flygon>Eddi: Long story short, got bored enough to make tracks able to be stuffed through a 1988 computer's DAC :U
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not clicking on that...
10:31<Flygon>You dislike orchistra hits? D:
10:31<Xaroth|Work>Flygon: ever played Rock'n'Roll Racing?
10:31<Flygon>Does it have orchistra hits?
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, you mean like this "demo scene" that takes stuff rendered on modern computers and shoves it through ancient things like atari 2600?
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>(which is WAAAAY before my time)
10:32<Xaroth|Work> @Flygon
10:32<Flygon>That implies the demoscene doesn't know about thems procedural generationializationings
10:33<Flygon>Nah, you'd never get stuff like that .wav happening in, say, a Mega Drive demo
10:33<Flygon>Unless it was a wild contest entry anyway, and you don't mind paying for a good bank switcher...
10:33<Flygon>Then again
10:34<Flygon>The machine CAN address 10mbytes of flat ROM without the CD drive or the 32x...
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>that sentence makes no sense whatsoever
10:34<Jinassi>run this:
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>may as well be describing a voodoo ceremony
10:34<Flygon>Xaroth: Sorry for the delay. On a more serious note, yep, I am familiar x3
10:35<Flygon>Also apperantly the show's Finnish dub is brilliantly 90s
10:37<Flygon>Xaroth: I also put this through because I thought it'd be funny
10:39<Flygon>Never had Biker Mice as a kid, either way
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10:58<Flygon>Sorry for being so... well
10:59<Flygon>Dumb, earlier
10:59<Flygon>Just been one of those evenings x.x
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11:16<@Alberth>so we lost partially grass stages, apparently, I never noticed :)
11:23<@planetmaker>did openttd loose that or just ogfx+landscape?
11:24<@planetmaker>actually, only the latter
11:29<@Alberth>:O any idea how that happened?
11:30<@Rubidium>obviously my patch to NML
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11:33<@Alberth>ah, not in opengfx+landscape itself thus, what I was thinking (and finding quite weird)
11:33<@Rubidium>Alberth: well... I'd be amazed if my patch did it ;)
11:34<@Rubidium>especially since my patch was after the last nightly
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11:53<@planetmaker>Alberth, probably simply some c&p error in the sprite export scripts or so
11:54<@planetmaker>maybe I renamed a layer which I better had not renamed or so
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11:54<@planetmaker>(or rename in further places, too)
11:54<@peter1138>Doesn't affect TTD graphics ;)
11:55<@planetmaker>pöh! :P
11:55<@planetmaker>nor actually zbase
11:55<@peter1138>might as well
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12:22<Pokka>what did you do?
12:23<@peter1138>Ate it.
12:23<Pokka>nom nom nom
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12:25<Pokka>BAD FEATURES
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12:28<Pikka>"On 12 Nov 1922, 59mph was achieved pulling 65 tons, but the boiler pressure could not be got above 170psi (instead of the designed 200psi) and coal was burnt at the frightening rate of 40lb/mile. A conventional L&YR 4-6-0 could pull 400 tons at the same burn rate. Further runs took place on 13 May 1923, but the results were worse than even a standard 2-4-2 tank engine, and the machine was returned to Armstrong-Whitworth and wri
12:28<Pikka>tten off. "
12:28<@Alberth>looks awesome though :)
12:28<Pikka>someone (tm) should make a newgrf containing nothing but hilariously awful experimental vehicles
12:29<V453000>someone already made a newgrf with hilariously awful vehicles, is that enough? :P
12:30<Pikka>I don't know who you mean
12:30<Pinkbeast>Pikka: Mind you, there's no denying the honking great cowling on the back looks cool
12:31<V453000>no nuts
12:32<Pinkbeast>Also would surely qualify
12:32<Pikka>eh, well
12:33<Pikka>at least in TTD terms the Leader is alright
12:33<Pikka>but the ramsey turbine would be slow, heavy, underpowered and very expensive. :D
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12:34<@Rubidium>... and it would be cursing a lot?
12:34<Pinkbeast>There's that mad 6-2-0 Crampton built in an attempt to match the big engines on the broad gauge, too. "Liverpool" ?
12:35<Pikka>19th century, which is in itself a bad feature :)
12:35<Jinassi>Would ER22 fit into that category?
12:36<Pinkbeast>I had fun with your 19th century stuff even if it's a bad feature. :-P
12:37<Pinkbeast>And that completely impractical Colani design for the USSR
12:38<Pikka>now we just need 'someone' to make the grf
12:38<Pikka>which nobody will want to use anyway :)
12:42<@Alberth>ha :p
12:43<V453000>downloaded my first palette file 12.7.2011 at 0:57 :D
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12:47<@Alberth>deleted all palettes last August? :)
12:47<V453000>it is 2013 Alberth :D
12:47<V453000>2011 I started drawing NUTS
12:48<V453000>I mean 2014, not 2012 :P
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13:10<Pinkbeast>Oh, Brunel's pneumatic railway! You could have NuImpracticalTracks to go with impractical trains.
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13:32<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26945 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2014-10-02 17:32:45 UTC)
13:32<@DorpsGek>-Fix-ish: better scaling of the "cells" in which variety distribution happens for non-square maps (attempt to make reasonably square areas)
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13:37<@Alberth>hi hi
13:40<@Alberth>a case of a moved keyboard :)
13:40<Wolf01>happens :P
13:40<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26946 trunk/src/tgp.cpp (2014-10-02 17:40:45 UTC)
13:40<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26945): MSVC doesn't seem to have round yet
13:40<@Alberth>better than a weird keyboard remapping :)
13:41<Wolf01>such dworak
13:41<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26947 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-10-02 17:41:36 UTC)
13:41<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6122, FS#6125]: textual improvements of the base "translation"
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26948 /trunk/src/lang (catalan.txt spanish.txt) (2014-10-02 17:45:22 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 2 changes by juanjo
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 1 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
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13:45<Wolf01>once upon a time, in a office far far away, I inverted the comma and dot keys of a keyboard of a coworker, he didn't notice until one day had to write a difficult password and looked at the keyboard, "I can't explain why the password doesn't work, I'm pressing all the right keys", his face was the most comic thing I've ever seen
13:45<andythenorth>once upon a time
13:46<andythenorth>someone in our office aliased ‘sudo’ to ‘shutdown -h now’
13:46<Wolf01>that's always the right thing to do
13:46<Wolf01>if you aren't root, you must not do that thing
13:46<@planetmaker>hopefully sudo -> sudo shutdown -h now
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13:47<@Alberth>ubuntus tend to have user commands for such events :p
13:48<@planetmaker>I'm sure it was a bsd like system andy talked about :P
13:49<andythenorth>OS X
13:49<@planetmaker>yeah. bsd-like :P
13:49<andythenorth>it was in retaliation for some keyboard key swapping iirc
13:49<andythenorth>these things happen
13:49<@planetmaker>honestly, I probably wouldn't notice keyboard key swapping for a long time
13:50<@planetmaker>except if you moved f and / or j. Those are the keys with the small bump to find your way without looking
13:50<@Alberth>or until you make lots of typos :p
13:50<@planetmaker>well :)
13:51<andythenorth>or if I remapped your keys in software
13:51<@planetmaker>that's more evil :)
13:51<Wolf01>remapping a key to "ctrl + z"
13:51<andythenorth>what hap?
13:52<andythenorth>in the world of ottd?
13:52<andythenorth>Pikka bob is here?
13:52<Pikka>only sometimes
13:52<andythenorth>NARS 3 done?
13:52<@Rubidium>planetmaker: I immediately notice when they change the Y and Z on the keyboard that I use
13:52<Pikka>just finished diseasles
13:52<@planetmaker>Rubidium, the key or the mapping? :)
13:52<@Rubidium>planetmaker: *everything*
13:53<Pikka>no wagons of any description yet
13:53<@Rubidium>fracking German computers ;)
13:53*andythenorth wonders how much NARS 3 gets pillaged for Iron Horse
13:53<+glx>Rubidium: azerty is worse, you can't write proper french with it :)
13:54<Pikka>Dan was telling me of his plans for forty seven different American Horse rosters
13:54<andythenorth>63 even
13:54<@planetmaker>the dutch keyboard layout actually is not that bad, but ... well :) azerty is much much worse ;)
13:54<andythenorth>many horse
13:54<Pikka>such horse
13:54<andythenorth>fortunately we are limited by IDs <16k
13:54<andythenorth>how handy
13:54<andythenorth>unless I reused them :P
13:54<@planetmaker>took me like 10 minutes to type in my password on a machine with that frigging keyboard layout
13:54<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, your / key has a bump? :S
13:54<@Rubidium>planetmaker: the Dutch keyboard layout, or the layout that is used most often in the Netherlands (BIG difference)
13:55<@planetmaker>Rubidium, I meant Dutch. Not necessarily 'most used' (dunno which, I guess US)
13:55<Pikka>I will get on with the elecketricks
13:55*andythenorth writes some tests before writing code
13:55<Pikka>and send it out for comments when locos are done
13:55<andythenorth>not TTD
13:55<@Rubidium>planetmaker: ?
13:56<V453000>nmlc ERROR: Image file "gfx/8bpp/x1_COMPOSE_8bpp.png": Palette is not recognized as a valid palette. got this with photoshop-ttd-dos-noact.act - Photoshop palette DOS, no action colours (768 Bytes) Delete planetmaker, 2011-08-16 17:20
13:56<V453000>is that possible?
13:56<@Rubidium>planetmaker: vs
13:57<frosch123>i hate the enter key on us keyboards :)
13:57<frosch123>i always type \
13:57<V453000>me uses that :D
13:57<V453000>104 key (with low enter)
13:57<V453000>-> I have a cat picture on the \ key
13:58<V453000>it is perfect
13:58<Pikka>V453000, there's a grfcodec switch to tell it you don't care what it thinks of your palette. can that not be used through nmlc?
13:58<@planetmaker>yeah, frosch123, same here :)
13:58<@peter1138>My "Windows" key has a stylised duck on it...
13:58<V453000>idk Pikka, devzone does it :D
13:58<@planetmaker>Pikka, no, that can't
13:59<@planetmaker>Pikka, "used through nml" also does not quite cut it. nml does not need grfcodec :)
13:59<@peter1138>You have to be careful with palettes. Some programs will "helpfully" remove colours that aren't in the image.
13:59<frosch123>V453000: usally look for something like "disable palette opimisation" or similar
13:59<Pikka>sorry :)
14:00<@planetmaker>nah, np :)
14:00<V453000>frosch123: but where :D
14:00<@planetmaker>in photoshop?
14:00<Pikka>did nmlc inherit grfcodec's list of allowable palettes, or does it only accept the proper ones?
14:00<@planetmaker>you're the photoshop user
14:00<andythenorth>V453000: how are you applying the palette?
14:00<@planetmaker>Pikka, it has its own definition of palettes. Imported from openttd's code iirc
14:00<frosch123>V453000: i can tell you where to find it in gimp :)
14:01<andythenorth>are you converting to indexed and then just saving png?
14:01<andythenorth>or using save for web?
14:01<V453000>andythenorth: image - mode - indexed image -> load the palette, save
14:01<andythenorth>use save for web, load the palette there, see what the preview is
14:01<V453000>hm didnt think of saving for web
14:01<@planetmaker>imported as in copy&paste
14:01<andythenorth>your method should work
14:01<andythenorth>but sfw gives you a better preview in case of fuckups
14:01<andythenorth>sounds like a bad palette
14:01<Pikka>"no action colours" isn't going to be the right palette, though
14:01<andythenorth>my thought too
14:01<Pikka>load the no action colours one, then load the "proper" one
14:02<@planetmaker>good spot, Pikka :)
14:02<V453000>but what is the noact palette for then?
14:02<@planetmaker>V453000, for removing them from a sprite
14:02<V453000>just to convert colours without act, but save in normal colours with everything?
14:02<V453000>nice, did that already :D
14:03<@planetmaker>the final saved file must always be with the full palette
14:03<V453000>didnt know
14:03<V453000>thanks :)
14:03<andythenorth>sounds like a useful palette :)
14:03<@peter1138>one-way road markers should've been on tile edges :p
14:04<Pikka> <- av8 conversion palette :P
14:04<frosch123>peter1138: signals should have been on tile edges? :p
14:04<@peter1138>That toO!
14:05<V453000>18:03:32 nmlc ERROR: Image file "gfx/8bpp/x1_COMPOSE_8bpp.png": Palette is not recognized as a valid palette.
14:05<V453000>still :D
14:05<Pikka>you broke it
14:05<frosch123>open it with ttdviewer, and check how it looks
14:06<V453000>well some things I got rid of
14:06<V453000>fire/lighthouse is there
14:07<V453000>and fizzy drink colour :D
14:08<frosch123>well, if the image is correct, and no colours are swapped or something, you can resave with it
14:08<frosch123>it will then always have a proper palette
14:09<frosch123>ttdviewer does not check for an exact palette, it only uses a heuristic to decide which one is more likely, and then forces it :p
14:09<V453000>I think it works now
14:09<V453000>I opened my other sprites which work, and copypasted the thing in that image
14:10<V453000>one of the fire cycle colours somehow remained, but got rid of that one manually
14:11<V453000>trying again (:
14:12<Sylf>making again
14:12<@planetmaker>palettes are a bitch ;)
14:13<Sylf>XD bunch of pure white pixel warnings
14:13<V453000>oh fuck off :D forgot about white
14:13<Sylf>but at least it built
14:14<V453000>fixed whites locally
14:28<V453000>I might try to draw at least URAN, VEHI and YETI icons
14:28<V453000>will do now
14:28<V453000>5-X will still take a bit of time
14:28<V453000>almost done though :)
14:29<V453000>I think the icons are 10x10
14:29<Sylf>lemme check
14:29<V453000>I kind of checked already but please do :) cant hurt
14:31<Sylf>yup, looks like that's it
14:33<V453000>kayz, drawing nawo
14:42*andythenorth broke the tests
14:45<@Alberth>quickly, throw them away so nobody sees it!
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15:12<frosch123>how about renaming the settings categories? "basic" -> "show only important settings", "advanced" -> "show most settings", "expert" -> "show all settings, also the weird ones"
15:16<andythenorth>in a game
15:16*andythenorth deletes things
15:16<andythenorth>tests still pass
15:16<andythenorth>clearly wasn’t needed
15:17<frosch123>i was actually being serious :p
15:17<andythenorth>I am agreeing
15:17<andythenorth>in a very english way
15:17<andythenorth>you should do it
15:17<frosch123>hmm it makes referencing the settings harder though
15:18<frosch123>maybe it should only be a descriptive hint in parentheses
15:18<frosch123>"basic (only important settings), "advanced (most settings)", "expert/all (all including weird settings)"
15:19<Jinassi>you peeps have a very specific humour
15:19<Jinassi>comic sans then? :p
15:20<Jinassi>i go back to my corner
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15:20<frosch123>dom casual is more classic :p
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15:21<Pikka>btw, andythenorth
15:21<Pikka>"Or the British Trains grf, surely?"
15:21<Pikka>totally can't tell. :)
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15:30<andythenorth>what did I do now?
15:31<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, your / key has a bump? :S <- ?
15:35<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, no idea
15:36<@peter1138>tab-complete fail, i think.
15:37<Pikka>you were inscrutable, andythenorth
15:37<Pikka>can't tell if you're serious or not :)
15:38<andythenorth>I’d like to see it succeed
15:38<andythenorth>I don’t enjoy watching people fail
15:38<Pikka>well, sure
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15:39<Pikka>and fair enough
15:39<Pikka>how goes dark horse, btw? since Dan is already talking about moving on to americanish...
15:42<frosch123>dark horse? you mean an american set needs equal amounts of dark/bright, male/female, hetero/homo/bi/a/para trains?
15:46<Pikka>dark horse isn't americanish, it's what comes before americanish :)
15:46<V453000>I want to see a train with tits
15:46<V453000>andythenorth: show me immediatele
15:47<andythenorth>no horsing
15:47<andythenorth>right now
15:47<andythenorth>je suis working
15:47<andythenorth>horsing is parked
15:47<andythenorth>also I have been busy cancelling christmas
15:47<@planetmaker>cancelling christmas, hm. Call it Easter instead?
15:48<@planetmaker><frosch123> how about renaming the settings categories? "basic" -> "show only important settings", "advanced" -> "show most settings", "expert" -> "show all settings, also the weird ones" <-- sounds indeed less confusing than current names
15:49<@planetmaker>or the parentheses version even
15:55<frosch123> <- "weird" or "strange"?
15:56<Taede>'weird and wonderful'
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>weird and crazy
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>"V would use these settings"
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16:14<Sylf>twoway_eol is still not in the gui anyway...
16:15<@planetmaker>Sylf, no path finder settings are in the GUI
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16:15<Sylf>so they're the beyond the expert settings?
16:16<Sylf>mess with them at your own risk
16:16<@planetmaker>somewhat the reasoning is: PF settings are crucial and wrong settings can basically 'destroy' the PF from proper working. If you change them, you really should know what you do. And then you can also use the console
16:16<@planetmaker>basically yes
16:17<frosch123>there are 3 pathfinder settings in the gui :p
16:17<@planetmaker>hm :) 90° turns
16:17<frosch123>6 in total under "routing"
16:17<@planetmaker>dang. you win :)
16:17<frosch123>if you manage to write a proper description i would not mind adding more pathfinder settings of type bool
16:17<frosch123>just do not offer the integer settings :p
16:17<@peter1138>Penalty settings!
16:18<@peter1138>Allow "expert" users to mess up their games!
16:18<@planetmaker>settings level: basic, advanced, expert, mental asylum
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16:19<andythenorth>settings, xml editor
16:19<andythenorth>do it the OS X way
16:19<frosch123>which setting is it actually?
16:19<frosch123>pf.reserve_paths <- why is that even a setting?
16:20<@planetmaker>pf.twoway_red_eol or something
16:20<@planetmaker>or what you mean?
16:21<Sylf>it's sad when I can type that loooking it up >_<
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16:21<@peter1138>As a solely path-signal user... har har!
16:21<frosch123>hmm, so it is yapf only
16:22<frosch123>what does npf do?
16:22<andythenorth>also har har at 90’ turns being banned
16:22<@peter1138>Also har har at andythenorth's feeble attempt at a ° symbol
16:22<andythenorth>oh that again
16:22<andythenorth>I should learn
16:23*andythenorth is on the road again
16:23<@peter1138>Nah, your (sometimes incorrect) smart-quotes everywhere make up for it.
16:23<andythenorth>going to a home out on the range
16:23<andythenorth>I do try
16:23<andythenorth>or my client does
16:23<@peter1138>Yers, it looks distinctly automatic :-)
16:23<frosch123>Sylf: we can call it "#coop style train routing" :p
16:23<andythenorth>hmm, can’t write code to ZZ top :P
16:24<andythenorth>90º turns very bad for ships
16:24<andythenorth>if banned
16:24<andythenorth>"just saying”
16:24<V453000>just call it "make overflows work"
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16:24<V453000>that is what 80% of the people know it as :D
16:24<Sylf>coop style overflow, that is
16:24<frosch123>wut? i use overflow depots all the time, and they work fine
16:24<V453000>probably bad ones :P
16:25<Sylf>see, most people use PBS+forced depot overflows
16:25<V453000>I noticed :)
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16:25<@peter1138>I don't use PBS, as I don't play TTDPatch.
16:25<frosch123>i need servicing anyway, when playing with breakdowns
16:26<@planetmaker>andythenorth, only for trains
16:26<frosch123>we could separate 90 degree turns for trains and ships :)
16:26<@planetmaker>aren't they?
16:27<frosch123>more settings .)
16:27<frosch123>planetmaker: funnily, no :p
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16:27<V453000>or just make it always allowed for ships?
16:27<V453000>what are the downsides there?
16:27<frosch123>it's another of those: original/realistic settings :p
16:27<frosch123>somewhen i want to add a setting with values "realistic" and "useful"
16:27<V453000>I can imagine that some extremist might want to keep 90deg for trains
16:27<@peter1138>We should implement vehicle reversing instead.
16:28<@peter1138>Ship stuck? Reverse it out...
16:29<frosch123>i have a patch for trains, it's in hgtrunk5
16:29<@planetmaker>frosch123, for ships we simply should ignore that setting. Every ship nearly can turn on the place it's located
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16:30<frosch123>planetmaker: but not instantanious
16:30<@planetmaker>doing so is a requirement for a license
16:31<@peter1138>Only if there's enough room :-)
16:31<@planetmaker>frosch123, not instantanious. But... good enough really. Like with a car turning on a road. But easier
16:31<@planetmaker>peter1138, it doesn't need much more than a circle with a diameter of the length of the boat
16:31<@peter1138>planetmaker, you obviously play with smaller ships than I see in ottd :)
16:32<@planetmaker>:) but even the big ocean liners *can* do so
16:32<@planetmaker>and they actually do so in harbours
16:32<V453000>with or without sinking? :D
16:33<@planetmaker>without. it's easy
16:33<frosch123>planetmaker: isn't that what towboats are for?
16:33<frosch123>when ships cannot turn on their own?
16:33<@planetmaker>those are usually used to tow barges which have no motor at all
16:36<FLHerne>Or to turn big ships in small spaces before all these vectored-thrust pod things came in?
16:36<@planetmaker>even without they could. In principle. But only *very* slowly
16:37<@planetmaker>so yes, big vessels without auxilary motors are a pain to turn :)
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16:51<andythenorth>with 90º turns off, ships take stupid routes
16:51<andythenorth>or get stuck
16:52<andythenorth>in rivers and canals
16:52<andythenorth>it’s a bug afaict
16:52<andythenorth>unless it’s a feature
16:53<frosch123>i don't think ships can get stuck
16:53<frosch123>they will turn 180° and then drive back
16:54<andythenorth>I think I’ve seen it
16:54<andythenorth>they fail to make a turn, continue up a different route
16:54<andythenorth>and then lose the route to the next destination
16:54<frosch123>the onlly annoyance is that they briefly report "ship lost"
16:54<andythenorth>I’m fairly certain they got too far from a bouy
16:54<andythenorth>but I don’t have a save to prove it :)
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17:04<fjb>If nobody has a save of it it didn't happen.
17:06<FLHerne>You can trap them with carefully-timed landcaping
17:07<FLHerne>Because they can only reverse direction when hitting land, so if they're on a diagonal you can trap them in a corner where it looks like they ought to be able to get out
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17:41<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> Sylf: we can call it "#coop style train routing" :p <-- that reminds me of "ttdpatch-style non-stop handling" or somesuch
17:42<NGC3982>Coop is a Swedish grocery store chain.
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't Koopa like a villain in mario?
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19:03<argoneus>the inconsistency with planes loading is annoying
19:03<argoneus>full load any cargo should mean full load any cargo
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19:03<argoneus>it shouldn't have "intuitive" special functions
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>or: full load should be able to specify which cargo
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, if you're really interested in the mail, just refit to mail only
19:05<argoneus>yeah I read that on the forums too
19:05<argoneus>of course I don't want to prioritize mail
19:05<argoneus>but having an undeterministic function that looks the same, is called the same, but works differently for another vehicle
19:05<argoneus>just feels like bad design
19:06<argoneus>wouldn't it be possible to change just the string to "full load passengers"?
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think you're using the word "undeterministic" wrong
19:06<argoneus>since there apparently is code "if vehicle is airplane"
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it does seem inconsistent
19:07<argoneus>it can feel undeterministic for a player that doesn't know it's a special case
19:07<argoneus>makes trains, works one way
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>and no, the string cannot be changed
19:07<argoneus>makes airplane, works another way
19:07<argoneus>player is confused, why the same thing works differently
19:07<argoneus>that's the definition of undeterministic, no?
19:07<argoneus>it's like throwing a red ball, it flies
19:07<argoneus>then having a blue ball with all the same parameters, just being blue
19:07<argoneus>and it doesn't fly
19:08<argoneus>and you wonder why
19:08<@planetmaker>sounds 100% deterministic
19:08<argoneus>okay, I'll replace it with "inconsistent"
19:08<argoneus>you're right
19:08<argoneus>the same blue ball will always do the same
19:08<argoneus>it won't suddenly fly
19:09<argoneus>arguing about semantics will not fix this issue, though :<
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, the probability that a bowling ball spontaneously jumps of the ground is non-zero :p
19:09<argoneus>the probability my body suddenly re-materializes next to yours is non-zero too
19:10<argoneus>zero and infinity are funny numbers :D
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i don't see any amount of arguing causing any change to that feature
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19:10<argoneus>so just changing the string is impossible?
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>a) infinity is not a number, b) there's more than one infinity
19:11<argoneus>it is not a real number
19:12<argoneus>and I never talked about b)
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>there are algebraic constructs that treat infinity like something you can do operations on
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>but calling those things "numbers" may be a bit of a stretch
19:13<argoneus>you can extend real numbers with infinity and minus infinity
19:14<argoneus>which is useful
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19:15<Eddi|zuHause>you can also extend the real or complex numbers with one type of infinity
19:15<argoneus>trick question
19:15<argoneus>what is 1/inf
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>which is used in some forms of projective geometry
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>or in elliptic curves
19:16<argoneus>I wish I found math interesting :(
19:16<argoneus>let me revise that
19:16<argoneus>I wish I had the right mindset to understanding math
19:17<argoneus>in high school it was mostly about drilling exercises
19:17<argoneus>now it's about using my brain :(
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>elliptic curves are a fun thing
19:18<argoneus>so far I only had linear algebra
19:18<argoneus>so I have no idea what you are talking about
19:18<argoneus>lines, planes, etc, sure
19:18<argoneus>elliptic curves, nope
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>an elliptic curve is a function like "y^2=x^3-x-1"
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>or more general: "y^2=x^3+ax+b"
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>which, if you plot it, is some wiggly thing that is symmetric to the x axis
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>and what you can do with this is define an operation on two points on that curve: "A+B" is defined as the point that intersects with the elliptic curve if you draw a straight line between A and B, and then mirror that point on the x axis
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19:22<argoneus>what point?
19:22<argoneus>when you have a line
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>every line you draw like this has 3 intersections with the curve, unless it is vertical, or A=B
19:23<argoneus>ohh, like that
19:23<argoneus>I get it now
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19:24<Eddi|zuHause>in the latter case the tangent is used
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>and in the former case, an element called "O" is used, which represents "the poin in infinity"
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>this "O" happens to be the neutral element of this operation
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>so "A+O=A"
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>and if "A+B=O" then you can think of B=-A
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>which incidentally means that A and B are mirrored on the x axis
19:26<argoneus>why do I feel like everyone here is a math/cs/physics major
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>because we're a protective group and drive out people who are not :p
19:27<argoneus>protective in what sense?
19:27<argoneus>you all seem like a bunch of nice people to me :<
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure why we still tolerate andy :p
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>you clearly haven't met TB yet :p
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19:34<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: totalbiscuit? :O
19:35*argoneus wonders who this mysterious TB is and why I should meet him
19:36<argoneus>aanyway nn my friends
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22:38<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: I looked up one of those supposed OpenGL implementations. It was just an openGL blitter, not a proper OpenGL implementation.
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 03 00:00:36 2014