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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-10-09

---Logopened Thu Oct 09 00:00:04 2014
---Daychanged Thu Oct 09 2014
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02:12<Pikkaphone>yes but no but
02:12<fjb>Moin
02:12<Pikkaphone>moin fjb
02:13<fjb>Moin Pikkaphone
02:13<Pikkaphone>what haps?
02:17<fjb>It's raining.
02:17<Pikkaphone>how rare
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02:19<fjb>How boring.
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02:45<andythenorth>Pikkaphone: is it?
02:45-!-Pikkaphone [~yaaic@203-206-161-219.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:52<andythenorth>apparently not
02:53-!-Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-19-186.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
02:53<Pikka>not often, anyway
02:54<V453000>asdf
02:54<Pikka>him too
02:54<V453000>.
02:55<andythenorth>V453000 is a BAD FEATURE
02:55<Pikka>and how
02:55<V453000>WAT
02:55<V453000>WHY
02:55<V453000>WHEN
02:55<andythenorth>we should remove him
02:56<V453000>pf
02:56<andythenorth>YETI was more popular than Iron Horse
02:56<andythenorth>which was annoying to me
02:56<andythenorth>but now there is a new, unpopular YETI
02:56<andythenorth>http://bananas.openttd.org/en
02:57*andythenorth now releases grfs according to when they fall off bananas front page
02:57<Pikka>good plan
02:57<andythenorth>people like Log eh?
02:57<andythenorth>it’s good, it’s good, it’s wood
02:57<Supercheese> Naturally
02:57<Supercheese>better than bad
02:58<V453000>XD
02:58<andythenorth>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C7mNr5WMjA
02:58<V453000>andythenorth: how many downloads did it have?
02:58<andythenorth>moar
02:58<V453000>...
02:59<andythenorth>I dunno
02:59<andythenorth>you’re not on the coop account, I can’t look
02:59<andythenorth>also
02:59<V453000>.
02:59<V453000>:)
02:59<andythenorth>I think I call my pipelines grf Electric Fence
02:59<andythenorth>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wW6rENTfaU
02:59<Pikka>http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=North_American_Renewal_Set cool
03:00<Pikka>pikkawiki is finally completely broken :)
03:00<andythenorth>Pikka: that is pretty
03:00<V453000>btw andythenorth , using newGRFs on servers is a big boost to downloads probably :P
03:00<Pikka>it used to only be a little bit broken, I suppose orudge must have updated it again
03:01<V453000>last yeti had just 897 downloads?
03:01<V453000>0.0.5 had 6795, was there for 2 months
03:02<Pikka>nars has 290k downloads, it will be interesting to see how fast/high it goes after the update :)
03:02<V453000>:D
03:03<V453000>quickly. :)
03:03<Pikka>and also how many complaints there are about "dumbing down" the bad features :D
03:04<V453000>even more :P
03:04-!-Jomann [~abchirk@p57A0ACC1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
03:05<andythenorth>naughty pikka
03:06<Supercheese>new NARS aaaaahhh
03:06<Supercheese>might actually force me to play a game
03:06<Supercheese>rather than sit and report typos :P
03:09<Pikka>just waiting on word from the MacK. :)
03:09<Supercheese>auto-refit supported? :D
03:10<Pikka>of course
03:10<Supercheese>Superlative
03:10<Pikka>bad features out, good features in :)
03:10<Supercheese>Huzzah
03:10<andythenorth>I’ve got a thing somewhere
03:10<andythenorth>about how people think ‘usability’ is about newbies
03:11<V453000>I wouldnt ever describe autorefit as a good feature :P
03:11<andythenorth>so everything is about how ‘newbies’ can learn complicated features
03:11<andythenorth>instead of figuring out how to remove the features
03:11*andythenorth mumbles
03:11<andythenorth>V453000: autorefit is super super awesome
03:11<Pikka>but moar feetures is always better, right?
03:11<V453000>:)
03:12<andythenorth>yes, I want an email client in my grf
03:12<Pikka>it's not called autorefit any more, because it's not auto :P
03:12<V453000>station / depot refit? D
03:13<Pikka>"autorefit" is station refitting
03:13<andythenorth>it’s called “I forgot to refit my vehicles, but I can fix it through orders refit”
03:14<Pikka>exactly
03:16<V453000>xd
03:16-!-Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd
03:16<V453000>or "use all cargoes as one" ? :P
03:17<andythenorth>no
03:18<andythenorth>that doesn’t work
03:18<andythenorth>especially with cdist
03:18<andythenorth>it’s a myth
03:18<andythenorth>‘refit any available’ is completely non-functional with cdist
03:19<andythenorth>also back on BAD FEATURES, why is it assumed to be about newbies?
03:19<andythenorth>the people griping most about BAD FEATURES are people who have played the game intensively for years
03:20<V453000>cdist is non-functional with everything :P
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03:21<andythenorth>cdist is nearly awesome
03:21<lugo>hi
03:21<andythenorth>I think fonso has done something very hard
03:21<andythenorth>it’s still a bit weird to play with sometimes
03:21-!-Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:21<andythenorth>but I wouldn’t play without it now
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03:28<Supercheese>I'm still not sold
03:28<Supercheese>but it does really help transfer schemes, that much is certain
03:28<Supercheese>two way transfers were nigh impossible before cargodist
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03:29<V453000>andythenorth: ever played a big FIRS game with it?
03:29<V453000>cdist managed to excellently demolish our game due to somehow broken distribution of FS
03:29<V453000>some clusters of farms simply didnt get anything
03:31<Supercheese>aaaaaaaaah no hovertext in the newest What If?
03:31<Supercheese>:<
03:31<andythenorth>yeah cdist has some problems still
03:31<andythenorth>but eh
03:31<andythenorth>also biab
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03:32<V453000>:DD idk if completely breaking a game is just "some problem" :D
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03:59<@planetmaker>moin
03:59<Pikka>boin
04:03<Supercheese>niom
04:04<Supercheese>u!ow
04:04<V453000>mooin
04:10<@peter1138>5/win 55
04:10<Pikka>sounds plausible
04:10<@peter1138>:(
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04:28<liq3>V453000: isn't there supposed to be two strong trains at 1950 and 1960 in NUTS?
04:28<V453000>sure
04:29<V453000>what year are you at?
04:29<V453000>it can take ~year for the train to arrive
04:29<V453000>so it can be in 1962
04:29<V453000>stupid openttd random :)
04:29<liq3>1970.
04:29<liq3>don't have Strong 4 or 5 yet. :P
04:30<V453000>very weird
04:30<V453000>can you sen me the savegame?
04:30<liq3>sure. it's using r26968 btw.
04:30<argoneus>good morning train friends
04:34<Pikka>get out you mad fool
04:34<Pikka>also, good morning
04:34<V453000>liq3: I can see both 4 and 5
04:34<V453000>are you sure you dont havesome filsters on? :)
04:34<liq3>what really?
04:35<liq3>oh gosh my bad. I clicked on a rail depot. XD
04:35<liq3>those windows look almost indentical.
04:35<V453000>ah electricity
04:35<V453000>?
04:36<liq3>yeh.
04:36<V453000>hm what is this new Show hidden button
04:36<V453000>interesting
04:37<liq3>it's why I'm using the nightly, instead of 1.4.3 :D
04:37<liq3>hide trains I'll never use.
04:37<argoneus>is it a bad feature?
04:37<V453000>oooh
04:37<V453000>interesting
04:37<V453000>did you hide the wagons?
04:38<V453000>aka is it saved in savegame?
04:38<V453000>cause NUTS isnt coded to tell that those wagons should be hidden :D
04:38<argoneus>V453000: what are the use cases for super strong anyway? cliffs that go up two blocks at once?
04:38<V453000>no
04:38<V453000>very long trains with just one engine, huge capacity, and ability to go short curves - while keeping instant acceleration
04:39<argoneus>I still don't understand the whole shebang about turning speed and curve size and whatnot
04:39<V453000>and yeah hills are ignorable entirely
04:39<liq3>yeh I hid them. :]
04:39<liq3>I'm guessing those wagons are just for visuals btw?
04:39<V453000>they arent, visual is same as universal
04:39<liq3>oh. hrm
04:39<V453000>with FIRS you can do some special refit hacks with them
04:39<liq3>oh ok
04:39<V453000>other than that, you can choose what to transport some cargoes in
04:40<V453000>e.g. fizzy drinks have tanker/flatbed, with universal it defaults to one of them
04:40<V453000>other than that, the universal is just ultimately useful
04:40<V453000>no real need to have the rest in 99% cases
04:40<liq3>ok
04:40<argoneus>just like path signals
04:41<liq3>I'm finding path signals preferable for those 2 platform terminal stations. :P
04:41<V453000>not really
04:42<V453000>sure, there it is kind of clear
04:45<@planetmaker>V453000, hiding stuff from purchase list is not saved. It's a client-side thing
04:45<V453000>strange
04:45<@planetmaker>or so I think it is :)
04:45<V453000>I opened his savegame and had it hidden
04:46<@planetmaker>hm, interesting :)
04:46<@planetmaker>I might learn something new :D
04:46<V453000>the only other thing I could think of would be if it somehow detected that the wagons were added by a parameter
04:46<V453000>and made them automatically hidden
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05:11<liq3>V453000: NUTS medium and strong engines are almost identical. :<
05:11<argoneus>I found Fast to be good enough for everything :<
05:12<V453000>the difference is quite major
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05:12<liq3>fast is much weaker on hills and accelerates slower if you use 2 medium/strong engines.
05:12<liq3>V453000: it's not.
05:12<liq3>not for medium/strong.
05:12<V453000>strong accelerates a lot better and mainly can pull a lot more
05:12<liq3>nope.
05:12<V453000>5 tile trains with 1 medium is pain, strong is just fine
05:13<argoneus>I had 7 tile trains with Fast
05:13<argoneus>and they didn't lose speed even on a hill
05:13<argoneus>like, one tile ascension
05:13<liq3>755t 7 long train, 2 engines for both, medium is 2.3days to 80km/h, strong is 1.9d
05:13<V453000>7 tiles for one fast should be really bad
05:13<argoneus>it was really good
05:13<argoneus>they went the advertised speed all the way
05:13<@planetmaker>what acceleration mechanism do you use, argoneus ?
05:13<argoneus>realistic
05:13<V453000>sure but took them ages to get to top speed argoneus
05:14<argoneus>not ages
05:14<argoneus>and even so, considering the distance
05:14<V453000>but if it was enough for you, its fine
05:14<argoneus>going 180 all the way after a bit slow beginning is much better than going 140 all the time
05:14<V453000>you shouldnt consider the distance but track business
05:14<argoneus>track business?
05:14<V453000>if track is almost empty due to bad acceleration, it isnt optimal.
05:15<V453000>if the track is packed with trains due to good acceleration, it is great
05:15<argoneus>the acceleration wasn't THAT bad
05:15<V453000>with TL7 it is bad.
05:15<argoneus>doesn't the type of cargo matter too?
05:15<V453000>the general rule is: as long as you dont get jams, the faster trains the better
05:15<V453000>acceleration helps to prevent jams/get more cargo throughput
05:15<liq3>V453000: TL5 train, 1 engine strong/medium, 485t, 2.4/3 tiles to 80km/h. should i confirm ingame? :P
05:15<V453000>it does
05:16<@peter1138>sorjekuijosdhguoiadsrfhgiuodhrafgiuohedraf
05:16<liq3>2.4/3 tiles respectiverly for strong/medium.
05:16<@peter1138>@ programmers who can't program
05:16<@peter1138>fucking twats
05:16<argoneus>peter1138: what happened buddy?
05:16<@peter1138>colleague asks me if something will work
05:16<SpComb>not all programmers are programmers
05:16*andythenorth can’t program
05:16<V453000>liq3: to 80. But then they proceed to 160 where strong is quicker, AND it doesnt accelerate anymore, while medium still needs to keep going
05:16<andythenorth>but I can code
05:16<@peter1138>which involves calling a function in his program
05:16<liq3>V453000: oh, i'm comparing tier 3s.
05:16<@peter1138>as if i would know what it does
05:17<liq3>should I compare tier 9s?
05:17<SpComb>for some, it's just a means to an end, not something to obsess over for it's own inherent value :)
05:17<@peter1138>so i asked him what it does
05:17<@peter1138>and he said... "i dunno"
05:17<argoneus>lol
05:17<@planetmaker>:D
05:17<V453000>doesnt matter which tier you compare, logic should be similar everywhere
05:17<argoneus>at least he talks to you
05:17<argoneus>a friend once asked me to fix his homework
05:17<liq3>that's why I said 80km/h. Top speed of tier 3 strong. :P
05:17<V453000>right
05:17<argoneus>and it had things like
05:17<argoneus>int messi = 5;
05:17<argoneus>int ozil;
05:17<argoneus>I was like no fix it yourself
05:17<liq3>so medium reaches same speed .6 tiles later, but then accelerates to 100kh/m.
05:17<@peter1138>SpComb, heretics!
05:18<V453000>for network throughput and stability, strong is a lot better - the extra 20kmh or how much, does hurt
05:18<V453000>yes
05:18<@peter1138>more details, the function is called "ParseQueryString"
05:18<argoneus>is this java?
05:18<@peter1138>which is ridiculous because the framework already parses it
05:18<@peter1138>nah, c#
05:18<argoneus>same shit
05:18<@peter1138>the easy one
05:18<liq3>V453000: oh sorry my bad, I was reading data wrong.
05:18<argoneus>oh, right
05:18<argoneus>java would be
05:19<liq3>it's not .6 tiles at all. :<
05:19<argoneus>StringQueryParserFactory
05:19<V453000>it isnt as important how quickly train gets to the destination - more important is how much cargo can your tracks move per second - which are two di¨fferent things :)
05:19<V453000>how much is it then?
05:19<V453000>PS .6 was suspicious. :)
05:19<liq3>it's 4 tiles vs 5 tiles. :P
05:19<argoneus>also I had an idea
05:19<liq3>so 1 tile.
05:19<liq3>it's .6 days xD
05:19<argoneus>imagine if you could make roller coaster tycoon tracks in TTD
05:19<V453000>you could have 2 extra wagons on that 1 tile
05:19<V453000>instead there will be empty space because trains cant line up together as well
05:20<liq3>5 tiles is below train gap you'll get. :<
05:20<liq3>with 2 spaced signals.
05:20<liq3>hrm
05:20<@peter1138>argoneus, in c# if you want a request parameter called x you normally do Request.Params["x"]
05:20<liq3>then again maybe not.
05:20<V453000>TL3 can easily have 3 tile gap
05:20<@peter1138>argoneus, no parsing needed
05:20<V453000>the minimum gap is something around ~TL
05:20<liq3>really?
05:20<argoneus>peter1138: a request parameter?
05:20<liq3>This stuff is so interesting.
05:20<argoneus>like, a GET parameter?
05:21<SpComb>peter1138: request.args['foo']?
05:21<argoneus>wait
05:21<V453000>liq3: still, the 1 tile is only on the same speed, hwo quickly does it reach top speed from there?
05:21<argoneus>why would anyone write a website backend in C# of all things
05:21<SpComb>argoneus: Java instead?
05:21<argoneus>ruby/python/(php)
05:21<liq3>V453000: 13 tiles to rearch 100km/h.
05:21<liq3>:P
05:21<V453000>:)
05:21<V453000>see, clearly visible difference :P
05:21<SpComb>argoneus: not enterprise enough
05:22<liq3>only for the last 20km/h tho :<
05:22<argoneus>ruby on rails is enterprise as fuck
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05:22<V453000>those extra 8 tiles of acceleration can, and do mean more gaps between trains
05:22<SpComb>argoneus: besides, you listend languages, not we frameworks, which is percisely part of the problem
05:22<liq3>the trains are 25% faster tho.
05:22<V453000>are the gaps worth 25% extra speed? that is the question :P
05:22<liq3>haha
05:22<argoneus>SpComb: what is part of the problem
05:22<V453000>I believe they should be around equal with TL3
05:22<argoneus>C# is not meant for websites
05:22<@peter1138>argoneus, C# ASP.NET is pretty damn good
05:22<@peter1138>argoneus, sure it is
05:22<argoneus>it doesn't even run on linux
05:22<liq3>V453000: i'll test it ingame. make a loop or something.
05:22<@peter1138>tell that to my linux systems
05:22<V453000>the numbers arent precise, counting the gaps between trains isnt as simple
05:23<argoneus>mono a shit
05:23<SpComb>argoneus: it's rails, or django, or any number of vaugely similar and completely unrelated frameworks
05:23<@peter1138>eh, it works
05:23<argoneus>except when it doesn't
05:23<argoneus>XNA, WPF and many things don't work on mono
05:23<SpComb>argoneus: you can be 100% sure that you can hire a new C# ASP.NET guy off the street and get him to hack on your web app
05:23<@peter1138>they're not exactly related to web stuff
05:23<SpComb>argoneus: not true for python or ruby
05:23<argoneus>I'd rather even use php than c#
05:23<@peter1138>fuck that
05:23<@peter1138>php should fuck off and die
05:24<argoneus>there's also things like backbone.js
05:24<argoneus>or flask
05:24<V453000>still, each of the trains has its use, strong is ultra useful with strong trains (1-3 tiles), medium rail is kind of general purpose, but should do -okay- with TL4+
05:24<argoneus>or node.js
05:24<argoneus>there is a web framework for node
05:24<@peter1138>ah the javascript fad
05:24<@peter1138>remember when everyone hated js
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 0.92**(1/14)
05:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.994061871582
05:24<argoneus>people still hate js
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 1.92**(1/14)
05:25<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1.04769724536
05:25<SpComb>peter1138: I browse with NoScript!
05:25<argoneus>it's just that it's the only thing all browsers support
05:25<@peter1138>SpComb's doesn't
05:25<argoneus>I'm sure it does
05:25<@peter1138>my text-mode browser doesn't
05:25<argoneus>he's just suppressing it
05:26<argoneus>why would you use a text mode browser
05:26<argoneus>does it have green letters on black background too?
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>i disabled javascript and plugins in my browser
05:26<argoneus>I always thought Links was more a proof of concept
05:26<@peter1138>why? because it gets rid of most of the shit on the internet
05:26<argoneus>and hoped no one actually uses that
05:27<argoneus>how does it get rid of it?
05:27<argoneus>the html your text mode browser gets is the same any other browser gets
05:27<argoneus>it's just that it's too crap to draw it
05:27<argoneus>it's more a side effect than a feature
05:28<liq3>V453000: Uranium for Strong 9? :P
05:28<V453000>sure :)
05:28<liq3>...what is Uranium track? XDI
05:29<V453000>the () sometimes mean what powers it for rail
05:29<V453000>like steam/diesel/electric
05:29<V453000>so I added uranium/dark power
05:29<liq3>lol ok
05:29<liq3>Nuclear train engines :D
05:30<V453000>fits the name I think
05:37<liq3>V453000: I can't modify worker yard with the cheat menu :(
05:38<@peter1138>you can only modify primary industries. does it process things?
05:38<liq3>yes.
05:38<@peter1138>that's why then :)
05:40<liq3>the cheat menu diasppoints me :(
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05:43<liq3>V453000: why are T9 strongs so light o.o
05:44<liq3>YETIs are half weight?
05:46<andythenorth>how would you cheat at a secondary industry? :o
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05:50<liq3>andythenorth: cheat menu?
05:50<andythenorth>but what would you be achieving?
05:50<liq3>V453000: Gap is 257 pixels for strong, 267 pixels for medium, for TL3 Yetis full cargo.
05:51<liq3>Tier 9s btw.
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05:51<liq3>andythenorth: producing cargo so I can load up?
05:51<andythenorth>hmm
05:52<andythenorth>so the cheat would be ‘processing industry produces without input'?
05:52<liq3>yep. :D
05:52<liq3>programming wise, could just add a flat value.
05:52<liq3>a magical, cheat one
05:53<andythenorth>industry code can do that
05:53<andythenorth>so the cheat would just set the output value ?
05:53<andythenorth>I don’t think anyone will do it mind :P
05:54<andythenorth>could be done without modifying game, just in newgrf
05:55<liq3>dunno.
05:56<andythenorth>could be done
05:56<andythenorth>FIRS ports kind of do it
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06:01<liq3>V453000: even with a priority, the gap is strong 4, medium 5.
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06:11<V453000>modify worker yard in cheat menu?
06:12<liq3>yeh, change production amount.
06:12<liq3>so I can get more YETIs :D
06:12<V453000>yeah, yeti wont work with that
06:12<V453000>it uses different production code
06:12<liq3>yeh.
06:12<andythenorth>it would if you changed everything
06:12<liq3>it's fine, minor issue.
06:12<V453000>however you could go to scenario editor and grow the town
06:12<andythenorth>read the production multiplier during production cb
06:12<V453000>or set town_growth_rate to 4
06:12<liq3>I just used fast forward. only need a few yetis.
06:12<V453000>I dont think we want that andythenorth but I dont do the code anymore :P
06:13<V453000>aha, didnt know you meant only in short term liq3 :P
06:13<andythenorth>:o
06:13<andythenorth>who codes it?
06:13<V453000>Sylf
06:13<liq3>Yeh, wanted like 1000 YETis to fill the trains. :D
06:13<liq3>for the test.
06:13<V453000>hm :)
06:13<liq3>I still think there's almost no difference between strong and medium :D
06:13<argoneus>is it possible
06:13<argoneus>to have moving cargo?
06:13<argoneus>like non static wagon sprites
06:14<V453000>like wagons without wagon sprites, only cargo
06:14<V453000>sure is
06:14<argoneus>no but like
06:14<liq3>There's so few situations where strong is better.
06:14<argoneus>it will be a normal wagon
06:14<argoneus>except the cargo will be e.g. cattle and the sheeps will be running around
06:14<argoneus>but only when loaded obviously
06:14<argoneus>is that possible?
06:14<V453000>train length matters too liq3 , but yes they are very similar
06:14<argoneus>the cows*
06:15<V453000>compare them with monorail medium, also similar purpose
06:15<V453000>runing around argoneus ?
06:15<argoneus>yes
06:15<argoneus>like when you load coal, it's just there, static
06:15<argoneus>but imagine having a livestock wagon with an open roof
06:16<argoneus>would it be possible to have the things inside move?
06:16<V453000>yes
06:16<V453000>little point in that though
06:16<argoneus>why?
06:17<V453000>it isnt really visible when the train is moving
06:17<argoneus>you could make your yetis jump around on the wagon
06:17<argoneus>:D
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06:17<V453000>not even mentioning that such animations could take a lot of cpu :)
06:17<@peter1138>you could have it moving around while it loaded
06:18<argoneus>the cpu is not doing anything most of the time anyway :<
06:18<@peter1138>hahaha
06:18<V453000>yeah, during loading would be somewhat ok
06:18<argoneus>most cpu operations are DO NOTHING
06:18<V453000>with 3000 trains it is a bit different argoneus
06:19<liq3>Monorail Medium seems insane compared to rail. o.o
06:20<V453000>yes, the capacity is the main downside
06:21<liq3>yeh, cargo difference is pretty huge on TL3 trains.
06:23<V453000>each train has its purpose, and in questionable cases you just choose whichever you feel like using the most :)
06:23<V453000>TL3 is a case of that. there are many options
06:23<argoneus>isn't that the point of NUTS after all?
06:23<V453000>which is fine, because TL3 is most often used
06:23<argoneus>instead of going for historical accuracy, you go for letting the player strategize what he needs where
06:23<argoneus>and optimize
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06:23<V453000>sure
06:24<liq3>There's not much strategy when all the trains are equal. xD
06:24<argoneus>wait
06:24<argoneus>TL3 is used most often?
06:24<argoneus>I thought everyone used TL7?
06:24<liq3>TL3 is the easiest to work with.
06:24<V453000>good people use TL3
06:24<V453000>mostly
06:24<argoneus>I'll have to use TL3 then!!
06:24<V453000>I use TL5 personally
06:24<argoneus>oh
06:25<V453000>it depends on the map
06:25<V453000>if if is flat and smooth then TL3 isnt that beneficial
06:25<argoneus>is it because with TL3, it's easier to tell where you need more trains, it's easier to add them and they flow all the time so you don't have bursts?
06:25<V453000>no
06:25<V453000>shorter trains == shorter curves == shorter waiting spots == shorter stations, everythinh smaller
06:26<argoneus>but it's more expensive
06:26<V453000>sure, if you have millions after an hour of playing, expensive matters
06:27<argoneus>you have millions after an hour?
06:27<argoneus>do you have some sort of weird trick?
06:27<argoneus>that the developers hate you for?
06:27<V453000>certainly amount I cant reasonably spend?
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06:28<V453000>note that it depends on settings and costs, NUTS is cheap so getting money is equally fast
06:28<V453000>obviously you just build a lot of trains and it comes easily
06:28<argoneus>why is TL7 not so great, though?
06:28<argoneus>it's not hard to make curves for TL7
06:28<argoneus>there's usually a lot of space on map
06:28<V453000>then you play on super flat maps
06:29<argoneus>but it's funny
06:29<V453000>aha
06:29<argoneus>when I join a server
06:29<V453000>well then
06:29<argoneus>and see people
06:29<argoneus>that have like TL15
06:29<argoneus>I didn't even know the game allowed that
06:29<V453000>well, they also never have hubs and complex stations
06:29<liq3>V453000: wow, if my math is right, Monorail and medium rail are almost identical in throughput at TL3...
06:29<V453000>as soon as you start expanding the network and need more, more and more stuff, shorter trains are better
06:29<argoneus>so does TL5/3 make things easier>?
06:29<liq3>...which is bad for rail, because monorail becomes better the longer the train gets. :P
06:30<V453000>argoneus: a lot.
06:30<argoneus>I wonder
06:30<V453000>every tile of train length is a big difference
06:30<argoneus>is TL3 actually detrimental to income on super flat maps?
06:30<argoneus>or not really
06:30<V453000>income doesnt matter
06:30<liq3>^
06:30<V453000>but amount and distance with slight effect of speed matters for money
06:30<argoneus>b-but how will I flash my epeen at my friends with my company value?
06:31<V453000>regardless, liq3, at longer times monorail medium gets less TE, and there are other trains which are probably better at longer TL
06:31<argoneus>how does company value work anyway, it seems weird
06:31<argoneus>is it current money + income?
06:31<V453000>you wont, you will show them the raw power of 1000 trains on your small island
06:31<argoneus>lol
06:31<liq3>V453000: Medium monorail has 1.6k Max TE tho....
06:31<liq3>and TE barely matters.
06:31<V453000>only noobs shit bricks from numbers, seeing the insane network is better
06:32<V453000>liq3: idk, but it should mean that it reduces potency with higher TL :P
06:32<argoneus>though yeah
06:32<argoneus>the coop trains I saw
06:32<argoneus>they more felt like a flowing water
06:32<argoneus>than trains
06:32<liq3>V453000: you'd have to get massive TL for it to matter. XD
06:33<V453000>and strong will be again good with TL5, or even something for extra utility, shortening curve requirements - maglev or slugs are very good with TL5+
06:33<liq3>TE mainly matters for long, powerful trains and hills.
06:33<argoneus>so there's nothing wrong with using TL3 for everything?
06:33<V453000>argoneus: you just saw one of many :)
06:33<V453000>there isnt, but on a stupidly flat map it isnt gaining anything either argoneus
06:33<argoneus>I just thought the maintenance would be horribly high
06:33<V453000>oh god prices again
06:33<argoneus>I mean, even if it looks good, it should be monetarily efficient, no?
06:33<V453000>you CANT buy a good network
06:33<V453000>you have to be able to build it
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06:34<V453000>if you have curves long 7, you wont build a small hub in the mountains
06:34<liq3>argoneus: money is irrelevant. you end up stupidly rich with any decent network.
06:34<argoneus>well, yeah
06:34<argoneus>but I like being in the +, and having things optimized that way too
06:34<V453000>you are in the + easily
06:34<liq3>i'm making $59m a year with 250 TL3 trains. :/
06:34<V453000>PS with NUTS you cant really be in the negative :P
06:35<liq3>on a 256x256 map.
06:35<liq3>it'd be like $200m on a 512x512 map.
06:35<argoneus>so it's like
06:36<argoneus>TL3 for easier management, TL7 for more transported cargo, and TL5 inbetween?
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06:36<argoneus>er, more at once*
06:36<liq3>I think TL7 is more for the challenge.
06:36<@peter1138>Oh god, 1x GUI is so small :S
06:36<V453000>it all depends on many things
06:36<argoneus>do you mean, challenged?
06:37<V453000>generally, yes, the longer trains you can afford to build, the more cargo you can move due to less gaps on tracks
06:37<liq3>well with stock trains maglev is completely superior to everything afaik.
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: remember when the game was 640x480?
06:37<liq3>and keeping TL7 maglev trains at top speed is hard.
06:37<V453000>in practice, it might be easier to move more cargo with TL3 than with TL7
06:37<@peter1138>:-)
06:37<V453000>stock trains are just bad :)
06:37<liq3>yeh.
06:37<liq3>Lev4 is the best afaik lol. Nothing else comes close.
06:37<@peter1138>I tried with double-size sprite font, it's horrible.
06:37<V453000>Lev4 has so atrocious acceleration that Lev3 is the only usable option
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>back when it was still supported, i played in double mode all the time
06:38<argoneus>I want to kiss whoever invented shared orders
06:38<argoneus>it was the #1 annoying thing in vanilla
06:38<argoneus>that, and not being able to clone
06:38<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, it probably looks different than just double-size icons and text.
06:38<liq3>V453000: I'm not sure that's true.
06:39<V453000>it is, proven countless times
06:39<liq3>If you say so. :P
06:39<liq3>Lev3 still destroys monorail and rail.
06:39<V453000>TL3 with 2x Lev3 is TONS better than Lev4
06:39<V453000>without question
06:39<argoneus>but why does acceleration matter, if it's long distance and you don't have 100 trains on the same track?
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>there was also a patch that made some pixel interpolation
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>like "hq2x"
06:39<V453000>argoneus: it matters how many trains you put on the track
06:40<V453000>if you dont have 100 trains on the same network then you just dont have a network
06:40<V453000>at that point you could as well use ships.
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>but because it was optimised for isometric lines, text sometimes looked weird
06:40<@peter1138>2x lev3 yes
06:40<@peter1138>30000 instead of 20000 hp
06:40<argoneus>so the point of the game
06:40<liq3>lev3 has lower top speed tho.
06:40<argoneus>is not to have one huge train across the entire map, but a steady flow of trains everywhere?
06:40<V453000>lower top speed is only beneficial, they reaceh top speed sooner
06:40<V453000>in this case
06:40<argoneus>or is that just your personal goal
06:41<liq3>it depends on how much trains stop and start. it's not clear cut. :p
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>if you're going for track density, lower speed and more power is better
06:41<V453000>the game isnt about anything, you make your own goal
06:41<V453000>liq3: Lev3 vs Lev4 is totally clear
06:41<argoneus>but after all this time the game has been minmaxed and optimized for best results, no?
06:41<V453000>sorry :)
06:41<V453000>argoneus: what is best result? :D
06:41<liq3>V453000: even if you have a seperate mainline going from steel to factory, and another for goods to town? :p
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>i've used the Levs maybe 10 years ago the last time...
06:41<argoneus>using all industries to their full potential
06:41<argoneus>I'd guess
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>in some TTDP 1.7 game
06:42<argoneus>you are limited by industries and their production
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>basically, that's the only time i used them...
06:42<V453000>liq3: if each of them is 50% used, then it doesnt matter, if both are full, it matters a ton
06:42<argoneus>so pushing that limit is the goal?
06:42<argoneus>imho at least
06:42<V453000>argoneus: industries producing 2295 units/month each are IMPOSSIBLE to transport all
06:42<liq3>V453000: so it's more that lev3 is better on dense network.s :P
06:43<liq3>eh really?
06:43<argoneus>V453000: are you sure it's impossible? o.o
06:43<liq3>V453000: I dunno, that 5000 train map.... :P
06:43<V453000>I had 200 000 goods production in pzg2013 with 5000 trains and super special network, 11 tracks of absolutely FULL to the max with TL5
06:43<liq3>haha
06:43<V453000>so, like 80 industries would that be
06:43<V453000>in our coop game where we used 2295 industries I think we had like 25 farms
06:44<V453000>5 lines in each direction on the mainline or more
06:44<V453000>total hell
06:44<argoneus>oh wow
06:44<V453000>now obviously if you moved cargo by 30 tiles from each industry to local factories, it would work
06:44<V453000>I am talking about one big network
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>use 5000 ships :p
06:45<@peter1138>heh
06:45<@peter1138>yeah, even with 1 head
06:45<@peter1138>lev3 is faster
06:45<V453000>yes it is
06:45<V453000>the 643kmh is just too much
06:45<@peter1138>only on really long runs will lev4 keep up
06:46<V453000>yes but that means nothing will disrupt it :P
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>introduce braking distance and gradual slowdown on red signal
06:47<V453000>I dont think that helps? :D
06:47<argoneus>introduce train overtaking
06:47<V453000>XD
06:47<andythenorth>train wormholes
06:47<argoneus>has there ever been a coop game
06:47<andythenorth>just use ships :P
06:47<argoneus>where you made only road vehicles
06:47<argoneus>or would that be boring
06:47<V453000>yes
06:47<V453000>it is boring but it happened
06:47<andythenorth>increase ship speed limit :P
06:48<V453000>see my user page, 5000 road vehicles on 256x256
06:48<V453000>on coop wiki
06:48<argoneus>oh jesus
06:48<V453000>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/User:V453000
06:48<V453000>that was slightly interesting yeah
06:48<V453000>but there isnt really any way how to control RVs -> there is nothing to learn -> boring sooner orl ater
06:49<argoneus>waypoints and oneway signals
06:49<argoneus>:<
06:49<liq3>V453000: TL3 Lev4 doesn't accelerate that slow. :/
06:49<V453000>jesus fuck
06:49<liq3>sure, it's slow compared to lev3....
06:49<@peter1138>hmm, 85 tiles for Lev4 to catch up with 2x Lev3
06:49<V453000>yes, it is relative, THAT slow can also mean something else, but Lev4 is HORRIBLE
06:49<V453000>see prozone game 19
06:49<V453000>we used it there
06:49<liq3>hrm
06:49<liq3>what was wrong with it in that game?
06:50<V453000>density? that they break on every merging point if you let them to?
06:50<V453000>if you let them to == unless you build super oversized and wtf joiners
06:50<liq3>hrm. I guess I can see it causing huge gaps because of the high top speed.
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06:51<Eddi|zuHause>in my game i had to timetable the transrapid so it wouldn't ever meet at the merge
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>because that cut the capacity like in half...
06:51<V453000>timetable doesnt work with big networks yeah :) in small scale you can fiddle with things
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>and it wouldn't ever recover from that
06:51<V453000>one of our guys even did signal-less networks
06:51<V453000>"networks"
06:52<V453000>multiple trains in one tunnel \o/ :D
06:52<liq3>oh god that thing lol.
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like brianetta
06:53<V453000>no, mfb
06:53<@peter1138>i miss easy separation
06:53<@peter1138>which timetables promise but i can't figure out :p
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: just set up the times, and ctrl+click on start date...
06:54<@peter1138>I tried that, does not work.
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>depends how interruption-heavy your network is
07:00<@peter1138>Ok so I have 2 trains...
07:00<@peter1138>and they run together :(
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>then they blocked each other on some junction, and the waiting time at station does not suffice to balance that out
07:02<@peter1138>Nope
07:02<@peter1138>run it always running late
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes. separation does not work when they are running late
07:03<@peter1138>There's no reason for them to run late
07:03<@peter1138>The timetable is long enough
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>visiting depot?
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>not able to overtake?
07:04<@peter1138>Yes, plenty of time
07:05<@peter1138>Ok, think I got it, I have to set the date well in the future so that all trains can wait.
07:06<@peter1138>ctrl+click on start date (and set the date to sometime int he future)
07:06<Pikka>eh, too fiddly
07:06<@peter1138>Yeah
07:06<@peter1138>And then, if you ever change it, you have to resync it all over again
07:06<V453000>what if you autoreplace trains?
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07:09<@peter1138>yeah, if ever a train gets out of sync...
07:09<@peter1138>it's a bitch to put it back
07:09<@peter1138>Wasn't there an autoseparation patch?
07:09<@planetmaker>ctrl+click with time table
07:09<@peter1138>planetmaker, please read up
07:09<@planetmaker>how boring ;)
07:10<V453000>expanding the network sounds like a better idea :P
07:10<@peter1138>planetmaker, it doesn't work usefully.
07:10<@peter1138>The moment a train gets sidetracked it's all screwed
07:10<V453000>world ends
07:11<@peter1138>Now I have both trains running on time, but they're not separated, and I didn't touch any buttons.
07:11<@planetmaker>I agree. It's a bit of a nuissance to get working
07:11<@planetmaker>maybe that's why I hardly use it
07:11<@peter1138>it's a BAD FEATURE
07:11<@peter1138>hah
07:12<@peter1138>if the train is too delayed that it will never catch up, it should wait until the next cycle.
07:12<@peter1138>seems that should be simple enough to implement, it already knows the length of the cycle
07:17<V453000>sounds reasonable
07:17<V453000>but there are other solution to trains stacking, make them have different paths / give them conditional orders to sometimes go elsewhere
07:18<V453000>and they will not create the typical snake where they travel all together
07:19<V453000>definitely more interesting to think about systematic things than suffering hell trying to make a primitive feature work
07:19<V453000>"solve the game for me" :P
07:20-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*V453000@*.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] by peter1138
07:20-!-V453000 was kicked from #openttd by peter1138 [stfu]
07:20-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*V453000@*.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] by peter1138
07:20<@planetmaker>meh
07:20<argoneus>why
07:24<__ln__>eeeeend of discussion
07:25<@planetmaker>quite so it seems.
07:25<@planetmaker>in the most boring way imaginable
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07:29<V453000>wat
07:29<V453000>I dont even remember what I said :D
07:29<@peter1138><3
07:30<V453000>!logs
07:30<V453000>@logs
07:30<@DorpsGek>V453000: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
07:30<@peter1138>i got some bacon left over
07:30<V453000>booring
07:31<@peter1138>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1128
07:31<@peter1138>Says "implemented at some point" but it's not :S
07:32<@peter1138>Well, maybe implemented differently
07:33<@planetmaker>it should have been rubi's work
07:33<@planetmaker>some basic form of it
07:34<@peter1138>Yeah, bits are there.
07:35<@planetmaker>feel free to re-open it, if it's not yet done. It was then my understanding it is... and I'm sure I checked back with *someone* before I closed it :)
07:35<@planetmaker>but history is dark and gray :)
07:35<@planetmaker>and murky
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07:37<argoneus>planetmaker: you are dutch?
07:37<V453000>XD
07:38<@planetmaker>yes yes. Also Dutch
07:39<argoneus>nice
07:39<V453000>everybody dutch
07:40<@planetmaker>reminds me of an aquaintance... German nationality, speaks only English, lives in France. Or something like that
07:40<@planetmaker>quite so, V453000 ;)
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08:24<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> ctrl+click on start date (and set the date to sometime int he future) <-- what always puzzled me a bit was that the start date is the date where it arrives at the station, not when it leaves...
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: autoseparation is a pain once you try to synchronize two routes
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08:38<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: also, autoseparation has a negative feedback effect with traffic jams
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09:29<_maddy>hmm, can I replace both my engines + cars at once?
09:29<argoneus>es
09:29<argoneus>yes
09:29<argoneus>just set both to autoreplace
09:32<_maddy>works perfectly, even cargo is not lost :)
09:33<Celestar>lalala :D
09:33<argoneus>thanks obama
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09:47<_maddy>why do the yeti dudes look like yellow ducks?
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09:47<Pikka>they're in disguise
09:48<V453000>no better sprites yet _maddy :)
09:48<V453000>and it isnt THAT FAR from truth XD
09:49<Pikka>let's see the latest incarnation, then
09:49<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/YETI/industry_4X_f0000.png
09:49<argoneus>kawaii
09:49<V453000>plastic duck has been refined into a plastic hat now
09:50<Pikka>:F
09:50<argoneus>you're making me want to try out 3dsmax
09:50<argoneus>but I won't succumb, for I would be very disappointed by myself
09:50<Pikka>are they more or less final now?
09:51<Pikka>they're not as yetiish as the first version :P
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09:59<V453000>yeah I think that is design-wise final-for-now
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09:59<V453000>indeed not as yeti-ish but a lot clearer at the x4 to see what it is
09:59<V453000>and well, I like the cartoony look
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10:00<V453000>argoneus: you can probably get very similar output in any of blender/cinema4D/whatever
10:00<V453000>with good textures and some solid renderer
10:00<argoneus>V453000: well, it's more that I'm not familiar with the tools and I'm a shitty artist
10:01<argoneus>when I looked at people model
10:01<argoneus>they used the extorts and other things really smoothly and with hotkeys and got really nice results really fast
10:01<argoneus>I guess that's just raw practice
10:01<V453000>hotkeys are Only, and only a matter of practice
10:02<V453000>fast is not very common in 3D, it is work, and a lot of work :)
10:02<argoneus>how fast can you form a fancy pillar out of a cube in 3dsmax?
10:03<V453000>depends, which pillar?
10:03<argoneus>I don't know, I'm not an architect
10:04<argoneus>just some nice pillar with some carved mosaics on the side maybe
10:04<argoneus>or a WW2 soldier helmet
10:04<V453000>carved mosaics XD
10:04<argoneus>one of those german ones, you know the shape
10:04<argoneus>I tried making a helmet in 3ds once
10:04<argoneus>took me like 6 hours and I had to follow a tutorial too
10:04<argoneus>;;
10:04<V453000>helmet, hm, could take a few hours
10:05<argoneus>isn't it just a sphere with some cut out insides?
10:05<V453000>well depends how you need to use it, if 2-sided as a mass, it gets a lot harder
10:05<argoneus>oh
10:05<V453000>you could probably start from a sphere,you could do other things
10:06<V453000>there are many approaches to it and the usage matters a lot
10:06<V453000>also if there is going to be closeup look, like if you need to make scratches through textures/normal maps, ...
10:06<V453000>for example making those latest YETIs with the helmet took me 1 full work day
10:07<V453000>modeling, mapping, texturing, rigging
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10:07<V453000>not quite done though
10:07<V453000>the rigging is very quick and dirty and needs improving for proper animating
10:07<V453000>if not even redoing
10:09<argoneus>the extent of my modelling skins is making a body armor for mount & blade
10:09<argoneus>and it looked shit
10:09<argoneus>:<
10:09<argoneus>skills
10:09<argoneus>*
10:09<V453000>I liked one quote: The good people have failed more times than the bad people ever tried.
10:09<V453000>hence, practice. :)
10:10<V453000>and especially 3D things take a lot of it
10:10<argoneus>I wish I was motivated to learn new things when I come home
10:11<V453000>you dont wish that, you just either do it or not :)
10:11<argoneus>well
10:11<argoneus>but I am tempted to do other things more
10:11<argoneus>and end up doing those instead
10:11<argoneus>there's not enough time in a day :(
10:12<V453000>I agree with the last statement :>
10:12<@planetmaker><V453000> I liked one quote: The good people have failed more times than the bad people ever tried. <-- i like that :)
10:13<argoneus>I like that the better someone is at something
10:13<argoneus>the worse they think they are
10:13<Pikka>V: when it's done, send one over and I'll put it on a flatcar :)
10:13<argoneus>like, they see more mistakes than before
10:13<argoneus>because they are adept at it
10:14<argoneus>and think they got worse
10:14<V453000>I sure will Pikka :) thanks
10:15<V453000>I just need to rig it properly
10:15<V453000>then you can create your own pose as you like
10:15<V453000>the current skinning is just borkd :D
10:16<argoneus>I never understood rigging properly
10:16<V453000>me neither which is why I am trying to
10:16<argoneus>is it like, making a skeletal model, and then you connect the vertices of the model to the skeleton?
10:16<V453000>something like that yes
10:16<V453000>there are various ways how to do it
10:16<V453000>but basically you create bone structure to which vertices are linked -somehow-
10:17<V453000>but it isnt just that, that is the basic step
10:17<V453000>the more important thing is to make bones interact with each other properly
10:17<argoneus>and if you do it wrong you get vertices that overlap eachother :D
10:17<V453000>e.g. a hand has a helper object, you just move the helper object and the arm automatically follows
10:17<V453000>etc
10:17<argoneus>oh
10:17<argoneus>never heard of that
10:17<V453000>yeah, typically glitches in some bad poses etc
10:17<V453000>it is called inverse kinematics, IK
10:18<argoneus>so instead of saying
10:18<V453000>there is a lot more to it but I dont understand all of it yet
10:18<argoneus>hand, clench fist and move forward here
10:18<argoneus>you say
10:18<argoneus>hand, punch in this direction
10:18<argoneus>and that's what the helper obj is for?
10:18<V453000>you could do that yes
10:18<V453000>basically you create GUI for controlling the character
10:19<argoneus>oh
10:19<V453000>the more control the animator has, the better
10:19<argoneus>that helps you set some constraints too, right
10:19<argoneus>like it won't let you move the hand in a way it'd break
10:19<argoneus>or mess up the model
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10:19<V453000>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df--osKiI_c
10:19<V453000>typical example
10:19<argoneus>I'm at work right now, can't watch :<
10:19<V453000>that doesnt have any IK, just facial animations
10:20<V453000>yeah, limits
10:20<V453000>constraint is something a bit different :)
10:20<argoneus>also inverse kinematics spawns flashbacks in my head
10:20<argoneus>of interior semiotics
10:20*argoneus shivers
10:21<V453000>ok when you watch it, the legs have IK, hands are "FK" (forward kinematics) which means they are to be animated manually by moving bones/helper objects
10:23<Pikka>hmm, max animation...
10:24<Pikka>I remember these guys http://i.imgur.com/EwUjEfx.png ... good times :D
10:26<argoneus>V453000: how much do you reckon the model of a soldier in a game takes to make these days?
10:26<argoneus>how long*
10:26<argoneus>like, those super realistic human soldiers
10:26<argoneus>can a model take even weeks to make?
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10:39<argoneus>V453000: are any tools even comparable to 3ds?
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10:39<argoneus>on your level that is
10:39<argoneus>for me everything would be sufficient I'd guess
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10:54<V453000>one model doesnt just take months
10:54<V453000>one model can be hundreds of people, and months
10:55<V453000>like in pixar
10:55<V453000>anyway, gtg
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12:08<argoneus>ayyyy lmao
12:08<argoneus>oops
12:08<argoneus>why is this channel my default
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12:12<@peter1138>Because it's the best.
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26982 trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt (2014-10-09 17:46:13 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>simplified_chinese - 39 changes by siu238X
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13:49<_maddy>I hate the town authority, they are always preventing me from building stations... and now I got caught bribing
13:53<_maddy>a small town too, with 389 people, and this mayor acts like a big shot
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14:02<@peter1138>Okay, vehicle group profits, where should they go?
14:03<Prof_Frink>Into my offshore account.
14:03<@peter1138>:D
14:03<@peter1138>Display wise :p
14:03<frosch123>you mean "numbers"? we already have icons
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14:04<frosch123>put them in a tooltip or something?
14:04<@peter1138>Hmm
14:08<Supercheese>"This group earned $X last year"?
14:09*peter1138 looks at how the depot window does it.
14:13<@planetmaker>the group window could have an additional line in the very top which states that with group statistics
14:15<@Alberth>peter1138: like FS#1042 ? (haven't looked at the actual patch though)
14:16<@peter1138>1042 sounds old :)
14:16-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host156-13-dynamic.20-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
14:16<Wolf01>hello
14:16-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
14:17<@Alberth>it probably is old :p
14:17<@Alberth>hi wolf, andy
14:17<Wolf01>o/
14:18<andythenorth>“the 8bpp puts off players” thing is probably true but over-rated
14:18<andythenorth>based on the number of limited-palette, pixelart iOS games I see played
14:18<andythenorth>at 2x or 4x zoom no less
14:19<@peter1138>Who claims that?
14:19<andythenorth>people, regularly
14:19<andythenorth>mostly in the forums
14:19<andythenorth>floods of players will turn up if we only make it 32bpp
14:19<@peter1138>Most people only think 8bpp means blocky...
14:20<andythenorth>yeah nobody plays this https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.crescentmoongames.blocky_roads&hl=en_GB
14:20<andythenorth>or the similar voxel stuff
14:20<@peter1138>Minecraft is not popular at all...
14:20<andythenorth>and simply nobody plays the nimblebit stuff http://www.nimblebit.com
14:20<andythenorth>and lego, everyone hates lego
14:21<@peter1138>But hey, that's not 8bpp.
14:21<andythenorth>well
14:21<andythenorth>yes
14:21<andythenorth>conflation of 32bpp and EZ
14:21<@peter1138>tt-forums appears to have stopped for me :S
14:22<andythenorth>a big loss?
14:22<@peter1138>yeah but then they conflate 32bpp with realistic scale, smooth curves, and all that malarkey
14:24<@peter1138>Ah, Digitalfox...
14:24<@peter1138>Even mentions Minecraft as 8bpp o_O
14:27<Supercheese>8 bacons per pig
14:27*Supercheese would much rather have 32 bacons per pig
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14:37<@peter1138>Hmm, it works, but...
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14:39<frosch123>screenshot?
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14:44<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/groupprofit.png
14:44<@peter1138>Needs a different string cos the existing one uses {SMALL}
14:44<frosch123>he, you are back to small icons and big font? :)
14:45<@peter1138>Clean branch for this.
14:45<frosch123>i guess a \n would look nice between "Profit this year:" and "Profit last year:"
14:46<@peter1138>Feels like I should have a button to expand the window to add enough space to just put it into the window itself.
14:48<andythenorth>hmm
14:48<andythenorth>groups gui is shonky anyway
14:48<andythenorth>dunno why
14:48*andythenorth thinks on
14:49<@peter1138>Yes it is a bit.
14:49<frosch123>change it into a routes window :p
14:49<@peter1138>yeah
14:50<andythenorth>we can’t columnate?
14:50<andythenorth>profit column?
14:50<andythenorth>with sum?
14:50<andythenorth>bit boring
14:50<@peter1138>groups and shared orders probably shouldn't be separate things
14:50<frosch123>no excel please
14:50<andythenorth>well
14:51<@peter1138>but then that makes everything different
14:52<andythenorth>just sacrifice a row to group metadata
14:52<andythenorth>profit and crap
14:52<frosch123>you can somewhat fake it by adding two settings: "always keep shared orders in the same group", "automatically create new group on vehicle construction"
14:52<andythenorth>does it actually matter? I just look for red numbers next to vehicles
14:53<andythenorth>it = group profits
14:53<frosch123>hmm, or only "always keep shared vehicles in the same group" and then making them appear as subgroups in the tree
14:54<frosch123>andythenorth: you can already see the redness :p
14:54<andythenorth>oh where did ‘protect this group from global autoreplace’ come from? :o
14:54<frosch123>it's as old as the groups?
14:54<andythenorth>it is?
14:54<andythenorth>yet another feature I never knew about
14:54<frosch123>yes, only reason why groups were added
14:54<andythenorth>how interesting
14:54<andythenorth>clearly a very learnable ui :D
14:54<frosch123>the only usage of groups is autoreplace, isn't it?
14:54<andythenorth>for me yes
14:55<andythenorth>so group profit is useful because...?
14:55<frosch123>well, profit is generally not particulary useful
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14:56<fjb>Moin
14:56<frosch123>hola
14:56<fjb>Quak frosch123
14:56<andythenorth>I would happily see groups die in favour of consist management :P
14:56<andythenorth>but then…nothing may be removed
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15:10<@peter1138>not sure how those two are exclusive to each other
15:10<andythenorth>me neither
15:11<andythenorth>but we have groups, shared orders, station orders...
15:11<andythenorth>and groups mostly exists for auto-replace?
15:11<@peter1138>allegedly
15:11<andythenorth>dunno, it baffles everyone I’ve seen touch it :D
15:12<@peter1138>someone thought it was useful to add :p
15:12<andythenorth>it is
15:12<andythenorth>definitely less yak-shaving than fucking around doing it by hand
15:12<@peter1138>Anyway, by consist management what do you mean?
15:13<andythenorth>assign each train (or group I guess) to follow a pattern
15:13<@peter1138>Still doesn't help me understand.
15:13<andythenorth>changing the pattern causes the trains slaved to it to go to depot and add / remove vehicles etc
15:14<andythenorth>meh
15:14<andythenorth>easier to explain
15:14<andythenorth>you have trains with 3 red wagons
15:14<andythenorth>now you want 5 blue wagons instead
15:14<andythenorth>auto-replace can’t do that
15:14<@peter1138>Okay, so consist-based autoreplace, instead of engine/wagon-based autoreplace
15:14<andythenorth>yeah exactly
15:15<@peter1138>That might just require replacing autoreplace, rather than group :p
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15:15<@peter1138>Maybe we should autoreplace autoreplace.
15:15<andythenorth>only applies to trains mind
15:15<andythenorth>‘consist managed RVs’ :
15:15<andythenorth>:P
15:15<@peter1138>:S
15:16<andythenorth>urgh, if it was done on refit orders, people could do shunting
15:16<andythenorth>what a terrible idea
15:16<@peter1138>Haha
15:17<andythenorth>how about do it by writing code in a text window?
15:17<@peter1138>Coo, sprite sorter glitches
15:17<andythenorth>then I have to learn regex
15:17*andythenorth has been writing code for nearly 30 years without learning regex
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15:18<@peter1138>(with default graphics, no less)
15:21<Wolf01>also set orders schedule to group instead of every train + share orders
15:21<Wolf01>s/group/consist
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15:35<andythenorth>full FIRS is oddly boring
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15:52<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26983 trunk/src/screenshot.cpp (2014-10-09 19:52:07 UTC)
15:52<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Account for max_heightlevel when saving heightmaps.
15:57<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26984 trunk/src/heightmap.cpp (2014-10-09 19:57:40 UTC)
15:57<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26905) [FS#6134]: Heightlevels must be scaled by number of intervals, not by the value of the highest interval. Otherwise the highest interval becomes non-proportionally small.
15:58<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ps5yuueja?/ps5yuueja <- i still have that local modification
15:58<frosch123>no idea whether it is any good
16:00<@planetmaker>I think it is. There's frequent confusion still
16:01<@planetmaker>but maybe it's time to rename 'advanced settings' in main menu to 'settings'
16:02<@peter1138>Bah, custom image drawing on a button is a pain in the arse
16:02<andythenorth>+1 to just ‘settings'
16:02<@planetmaker>or maybe 'Game settings'. But that conflicts somewhat with game scripts
16:02<@peter1138>Have to deal with things like click status...
16:02<andythenorth>‘Game settings’ is tautology
16:03<@planetmaker>:)
16:03<andythenorth>peter1138: welcome to my everyday ;)
16:03<andythenorth>mangling javascript :P
16:03<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p4z1lkf68?/p4z1lkf68 <- if any, i would go for plain "Settings"
16:03<@peter1138>Adding the widget_data2 is shorter ;(
16:03<frosch123>should we trash the translations for them?
16:03<@peter1138>Actually probably not shorter, but much less messy.
16:03<andythenorth>today, write some javascript to mangle off the click handlers on a datepicker, because I can’t be arsed to read the library and find out why it’s applying the click handler in the first place
16:04<andythenorth>monkey monkey monkey patch
16:04<@planetmaker>hm... I guess that's what we should do. Do it better than I did with the hover time strings :)
16:05<frosch123>also for the categories?
16:05<frosch123>or only for the "advanced"?
16:05<@planetmaker>Only for the 'advanced', I think
16:05<frosch123>so do i :)
16:10<Wolf01>'night
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16:17<@planetmaker>frosch123, what's a good translation of yeti's cargo "PigCow"? :D
16:18<frosch123>hmm, first thought is "Schweinehund" :p
16:18<@planetmaker>haha, yeah, was mine, too
16:18<@planetmaker>but it actually doesn't fit
16:19<@planetmaker>so literal?
16:19<frosch123>how about "Grunzkuh"?
16:19<frosch123>or "Ringelkuh" ?
16:19-!-sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.27.245] has quit []
16:19<@planetmaker>Trüffelkuh ;)
16:19<frosch123>:p
16:20<frosch123>also sounds nice
16:20<@planetmaker>worker yard for yeti dudes = arbeitsamt für yeti - typen ;)
16:20<@planetmaker>so ok, yes :)
16:20<frosch123>s/typen/heinis/ ?
16:21<@planetmaker>excellent!
16:22<frosch123>actually, Trüffelkuh is quite awesome
16:25<@planetmaker>any idea how to differ translations for Farm and Ranch?
16:25<frosch123>doesn't firs already have that issue?
16:25<@planetmaker>maybe, I forgot
16:25<@planetmaker>but I think there they don't appear concurrently
16:26<@planetmaker>but I'll check, thanks for the reminder
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16:27<frosch123>"Bauernhof (Ackerbau)", "Bauernhof (Milchviehhaltung)"
16:27<frosch123>somewhat meh
16:27<@planetmaker>yup :)
16:27<@planetmaker>meh
16:28<frosch123>i would go for "Bauernhof" and "Viehhaltung"
16:28<frosch123>or "Viehbetrieb"
16:28<frosch123>actually "Viehzucht"
16:28<frosch123>"Bauernhof" and "Viehzucht"
16:28<@planetmaker>well. yeti has all three: Farm, Ranch, and Animal Farm
16:29<frosch123>hmm, what's the difference between ranch and animal farm?
16:30<frosch123>chart says: cowpig, grain, fruit
16:30<frosch123>but they do not quite match with the names you listed
16:31<@planetmaker>hm, no, actually.. there's Grain Farm, Animal Farm and Plantation. And then there's the associated station names
16:31<@planetmaker>I mixed that up
16:31<@planetmaker>the station names are Ranch, Farm, Plantation
16:31<frosch123>grain -> Bauernhof, pigcow -> Viehzucht, fruit -> Plantage
16:32<frosch123>^^ for industry names
16:32<@planetmaker>yup
16:32<frosch123>station names: grain -> Feld, fruit -> Orangerie, pigcow -> Streichelzoo
16:33<@planetmaker>lool. That's good
16:34<@planetmaker>the dudes working in that animal farm will also go totally wtf when there come hordes of tourists trying to fondle their animals ;)
16:34<frosch123>it feels easier to translate yeti, than a serious set
16:34<@planetmaker>it totally does, yes
16:37<andythenorth>bed
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16:40<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26985 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-10-09 20:40:36 UTC)
16:40<@DorpsGek>-Change: Make settings categories more descriptive.
16:57-!-MNIM [~MNIM@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
16:57<MNIM>Hullo!
16:57<MNIM>long time since i've last been here.
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17:01<@peter1138>Meh, these icons are pissing me off
17:03<MNIM>Hmmmmmh.
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>this guy may become a great source of fun over the next years :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wWNVlEA_nk [german]
17:06<@planetmaker>outch
17:06<MNIM>Eddi|zuHause: synopsis for those for whom german is the fourth language?
17:06<@planetmaker>I'm sure there is a translation into every European language available :)
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>basically the gist of the video: MEP of the german satire party "THE PARTY" asks the hungarian (right-wing) candidate for commissioner for education, whether "Mein Kamp" becomes mandatory reading in schools
17:07<__ln__>MNIM: they speak very clearly
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>and the answer is basically "some of my best friends are jewish"
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>*mein kampf
17:08<MNIM>that they do. Still, it takes a lot of effort for me to understand spoken german.
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: being a european parliament session, there is probably a translation in every language
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>just not on youtube
17:09<MNIM>haven't used it in a long while.
17:09<MNIM>...not significantly since high school, really. ^.^;
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>sure, that's the same for me with french and spanish
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>and probably 99% of all people who ever learned a language other than their native language and english
17:11<MNIM>I've been taught dutch, english, french, latin, spanish and german.
17:11<MNIM>obviously i forgot a bit. :P
17:12<MNIM>I can still read most of them fairly well, though. fairly proud of that. :)
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes, reading is obviously easier. especially when they are in the same language family
17:13-!-luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
17:13<MNIM>Only English remained, and obviously Dutch.
17:14<MNIM>Anyway, question. How does leg profit work in feeder systems?
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: basically it guesses a number, which will be accounted for vehicle profit, but not for your bank account
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>the final delivery will be calculated from beginning to end, which will be awarded to your bank account as if there were no transfers
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>then all the transfer credit is deducted, and the remainder awarded as profit for the last vehicle (may be negative)
17:15<MNIM>I'm running a Cargodist+2CCtrains(NML) game with lots of feeder chains, and i can't figure out why those trains keep running at 200% loss.
17:16<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26986 /trunk/src (62 files in 3 dirs) (2014-10-09 21:16:29 UTC)
17:16<@DorpsGek>-Change: Rename 'Advanced Settings' to just 'Settings'.
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>the leg profit is calculated as if it were a direct route, and multiplied with an arbitrary factor, which you can set in the advanced settings
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>loss at the end is usually either that some intermediate station "overshot" the distance, and the last leg goes partially backwards, or that the last vehicle is slower than the intermediate ones
17:18<MNIM>well, the last legs (small cargo trams that release cargo to industries at a controlled rate) usually runs at a profit.
17:18<MNIM>it's the trains in the middle leg that lose money.
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds unlikely
17:19<MNIM>heck, even passenger trains, that don't use any kind of feeding chains, run at a loss
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>unless you use "unload" orders
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>or it's the inflation
17:20<MNIM>which they never did before for me in 2CC+cargodist
17:21<MNIM>It's only the trains which run at a loss, so it makes me suspect 2CC
17:21<MNIM>running 2CC trains in NML 1.0-beta 4
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>either the costs are not balanced, or you flipped some "increase the costs" switch
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17:33<MNIM>yeah, that was my suspicion, except for the fact that that particular grf seems to have its parameters disabled.
17:33<MNIM>http://imgur.com/MwrCmVu
17:34<@planetmaker>they are not disabled. Generally ingame you cannot change grf config
17:34<@planetmaker>it's a thing you need to configure prior to starting the map
17:34<MNIM>oh. wait. i forgot that's disabled by default.
17:35<MNIM>still, all running costs are set to default. :/
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17:43<Eddi|zuHause>it could also be interference with another grf (basecosts)
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17:44<Supercheese>Poor settings, no longer advanced...
17:44<@peter1138>Hmm
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>reminds me of "ppor pluto"
17:50<@planetmaker>http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs17/f/2008/041/b/b/bb82467f22449f9b.jpg <-- poor poor :)
17:51<MNIM>no basecost grfs of any kind. oh well. set scenario_developer true and halved the 2cc train running costs.
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17:55<frosch123>night
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17:55<@peter1138>these icon things are annoying
17:55<@peter1138>they have offsets to centre the sprites
17:56<@peter1138>(which are scaled)
17:56<@peter1138>and offsets in the code to pad the buttons
17:56<@peter1138>(which are not scaled)
17:56<@peter1138>add together and it all goes wrong
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18:04<MNIM>yea. just halving the running costs makes the trains run even, and all the others ran a profit already.
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19:09<Eddi|zuHause>anyone remind me of the reason why the title game is loaded twice?
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19:48<Pikka>and did those feet
19:49<@peter1138>dance magic dance
19:50<Pikka>exactly
19:50<Pikka>zbase has built-in 2x gui, innit
19:50<Pikka>I guess that means I'm FORCED to make my own base set :/
19:51<@peter1138>i think planetmaker mentioned removing that
19:56<@peter1138>i lost my pedal :(
19:57<@peter1138>found it :D
19:57<Pikka>huzzah
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20:12<@peter1138>to be young, gifted, and black... that's where it's at
20:35<argoneus>just the last one is enough
20:35<argoneus>the rest will be forced upon you to meet quotas
20:42<@peter1138>ok
20:44<@peter1138>Pikka, do a base set anyway, you'd do it well, probabl :p
20:44<@peter1138>+y
20:44<Pikka>I will, it's just a question of doing it. :P
20:45<@peter1138>hmm, does 10cc provide 1x zoom sprites or rely on openttd to do that?
20:45<Pikka>it relies on openttd
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20:46<Pikka>it only provides 4x 32bpp sprites, and fake 1x 8bpp sprites
20:46<@peter1138>mind you it looks good enough at 1x anyway
20:47<Pikka>for rails and other static things I'll probably do multiple zoom levels, just to get rid of some of the aliasing
20:47<@peter1138>some aliasing is good
20:48<Pikka>I've done tests of rail sprites and they can look funny zoomed out, because it chops different pixels from different rails
20:48<@peter1138>stops it becoming a blurry mush
20:48<Pikka>so they'll need a 1x pass too
20:48<@peter1138>funny things about 10cc
20:48<@peter1138>changing company colour doesn't work on stopped vehicles :p
20:49<Pikka>:P
20:49<Pikka>to be precise, it doesn't take effect until it redraws the sprite.
20:49<@peter1138>nah
20:49<@peter1138>until the vehicle has an update
20:49<Pikka>yes
20:49<Pikka>that's what I meant
20:49<Pikka>until it recalculates the sprite
20:50*peter1138 waves at digitalfox, able to monitor irc stealthily huh
20:50<Eddi|zuHause><Pikka> I've done tests of rail sprites and they can look funny zoomed out, because it chops different pixels from different rails <-- probably needs some hinting (like fonts) to become useful
20:51<Pikka>or just providing additional zoom level sprites, eddi :)
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that's not all that difficult, given that there are public logs on the web :p
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: yes, i meant for the automatic approach
20:52<@peter1138>I know, but funny how he was actually doing it, when I mentioned his name the first time earlier :p
20:52<Pikka>you mean this isn't the secret cabal where we plot the downfall of grf authors we don't like, eddi?
20:52<@peter1138>Pikka, they're all watching us.
20:52<Pikka>and are quite capable of engineering their own downfalls, anyway ;)
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: no, this is the public cabal where we plot the downfall of grf authors we don''t like, Pikka,
20:53<Pikka>right
20:53<Pikka>let's start with V453000 :D
20:53<Eddi|zuHause>MB has great fun reading these logs, i suppose :p
20:53<Pikka>I would imagine mb has better things to do
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>MB has occasionally referenced discussions that happened in here
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>also, "start" is probably the wrong word :p
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, we already have a pretty good track record of driving people like OzTrans and SAC out of the community :p
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21:02<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, what, by not actually doing anything to them?
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>pretty much :)
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21:03<Eddi|zuHause>i don't even remember why SAC left... there was something flamewar-ish going on, and possibly trees were involved.
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21:04<Eddi|zuHause>and much much later there was something about non-content advertising stuff on bananas
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21:14<argoneus>good night, train friends
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21:24<@peter1138>what about
21:24<@peter1138>ship friends
21:24<@peter1138>aircraft friends
21:24<@peter1138>and those nutters, the road vehicle friends
21:25<Eddi|zuHause>everybody knows that openttd is a pure train game
21:26<Eddi|zuHause>there is one and only one play style and we do not tolerate other opinions
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21:28<@peter1138>exactly
21:28<@peter1138>not even V453000's
21:28<@peter1138>definitely not andythenorth's
21:28<@peter1138>of course
21:29<@peter1138>if you're a dev, the way to play the game is with vim
21:30<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i've offended enough people tonight
21:30<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i should state that i worship cthulu, and that scientology is not a proper religion
21:31<@peter1138>don't be silly
21:31<@peter1138>FSM's where it's at
21:31<Eddi|zuHause>although the last one probably doesn't reach the proper target audience in here :p
21:32<Eddi|zuHause>i eat pastafarians for breakfast
21:34<Pikka>what about horse friends?
21:34<Pikka>horses and sailing ships are what makes OpenTTD fun
21:35<@peter1138>and pixels
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>people who watch MLP are only a tiny step above furries.
21:35<@peter1138>visible pixels that stand out from their neighbours
21:35<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, hah
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 10 00:00:46 2014