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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-10-15

---Logopened Wed Oct 15 00:00:53 2014
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01:42<andythenorth>@seen danmack
01:42<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 12 hours, 52 minutes, and 1 second ago: <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
01:43<andythenorth>the usual
01:43<andythenorth>moin Pikka
01:44<V453000>hyhyhyhyhhyhyhyhyhy
01:45<andythenorth>bonjour V
01:45<V453000>what up
01:46<andythenorth>trams up
01:46*andythenorth considers heli-trams
01:46<V453000>XD
01:46<V453000>wetrail trams?
01:47<V453000>dayum height levels so high
01:47<andythenorth>255 is definitely enough
01:49<V453000>hm the two best iron horse trains are quite ugly andy :(
01:49<V453000>no specular highlights etc
01:49<V453000>you should whip your slave
01:51<andythenorth>the double juice and screamer?
01:51<V453000>exactly
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01:52<andythenorth>such horse
01:53<V453000>just dont forget to whip the slaves so they do a better job :P
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02:23<@planetmaker>bon jour
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02:24<V453000>hy jour
02:26<Pikka>what what what
02:27<Pikka>where's the 64bpp horse?
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02:31<Supercheese>2048bpp
02:31<Pikka>easily
02:32<andythenorth>busy making trams innit
02:32<Supercheese>the more baconsperpig the better
02:32<Supercheese>8 bacons is not enough
02:32<andythenorth>should I animate the rivets on these trams?
02:33<Pikka>at 48fps
02:33<Supercheese>I'm no so sure, if they get animated they may complain about their lot in life
02:33<Supercheese>"Why do I have to hold this panel on? I would much rather be in Cancún thank you very much."
02:34<Supercheese>then they'd form a union and petition for wage increases. Or well, wages in the first place.
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02:35<Supercheese>No, best they stay un-animated
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02:41<andythenorth>Pikka: ¿feel like renderising this? https://www.flickr.com/photos/jrjamesarchive/9355492509/
02:41<andythenorth>or I could just finish drawing it
02:42<Pikka>on a scale from 1 to 10, do I feel like rendering it?
02:42<Pikka>compared to preparing for my group presentation tomorrow, probably.
02:42<Supercheese>Eesh, group presentation
02:42<Pikka>how's the drawing going?
02:42<V453000>XD
02:43<V453000>Pikka makes it RELATIVE
02:43<andythenorth>I am hacking a HEQS sprite
02:43<Supercheese>'ware the axe when hacking
02:43<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/road-hog/repository/entry/src/graphics/broadrock_0.png
02:44<Pikka>pretty :)
02:44<Pikka>for all your granular needs
02:46<andythenorth>50t of uncountable pourables
02:46<andythenorth>can’t make the bonnet / cab work right though
02:46<andythenorth>and the trailer scares me
02:46<andythenorth>I hate proportions on / \ views
02:46<andythenorth>normally just copy someone else’s
02:46<Pikka>ew
02:47<@peter1138>Copy TTD's proportions.
02:47<@peter1138>Or Pikka's
02:48<V453000>almost makes me want to draw something but too much work
02:48<V453000>3D ftw
02:50<andythenorth>V453000: draw me a truck?
02:52<V453000>NO.
02:52<V453000>I cant draw a truck? :d
02:52<V453000>only did tranez
02:52<V453000>guess it wouldnt be that hard
02:52<V453000>but you dont want a truck to look like a slug do you
02:52<V453000>damn that could be awesome
02:57<andythenorth>slug truck
02:57<andythenorth>not in my set, but maybe in yours?
02:57<V453000>am not makenth RVz yet
02:57<V453000>probably not anytime soon :P
02:59<andythenorth>hurgh
02:59<andythenorth>full FIRS is dumb
02:59*andythenorth just saw the minimap industry view
03:00<V453000>remove everything
03:00<V453000>disable features
03:00<V453000>dying
03:01*andythenorth just switch to basic FIRS
03:01<andythenorth>problem solved
03:01<V453000>:
03:01<V453000>)
03:01<V453000>temperate one looks best to me
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03:12<@peter1138>BAD FEATURES: multiple (uncooperative) vehicle newgrfs...
03:13<andythenorth>?
03:15<@peter1138>dynamic_engines
03:19<andythenorth>not at this time of day
03:20<andythenorth>not enough coffee
03:20<supermop>opposite problem here
03:20<andythenorth>ho
03:20<andythenorth>I’ll just nick the cab off one of Dan’s trucks
03:20<andythenorth>solved that
03:20<andythenorth>most of my sprites are stolen
03:20<andythenorth>way more effective
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03:36<@peter1138>Derp
03:41<supermop>can a house be composed of multiple sprites (other than ground sprite and foundations)?
03:42<@peter1138>They have to be.
03:42<supermop>realsprites that is
03:42<@planetmaker>yes, supermop
03:43<supermop>for example, one sprite for the four walls, and another for the roof on top of them?
03:43<@planetmaker>in principle yes. But that doesn't make much sense as you won't see two of the four sprites
03:43<@planetmaker>s/sprites/walls
03:44<@peter1138>Better to use 1 sprite. Less work for the game.
03:44<supermop>so a house could have one sprite for facade and one for rear of house, and a third for the roof
03:44<@planetmaker>yeah, it's better if you made the grf such that you assembled the house into one sprite in the pre-processing stage during grf compilation
03:45<supermop>but here's the thing:
03:45<@planetmaker>but yes, you can do that what you suggest
03:45<supermop>if i want to have a generic terraced house as is common here
03:46<@planetmaker>then you need side wall, front wall and roof
03:46<supermop>the bodies of all the houses are more or less the same, with only some details of the facade and roof gable differentiating them
03:47<supermop>the few basic variations one sees lead to hundreds of possible combinations, more than enough to give a house set some variety
03:47<@planetmaker>anyhow: you can compose a house from arbitrary sprites
03:47<supermop>but rendering that many houses gives a huge grf file
03:47<@peter1138>Each variation would need its own custom layout anyway.
03:47<@planetmaker>so using a few basic shapes with some decorations drawn on top which are tailored to the basic shapes might be a good idea
03:47<@peter1138>So you might as well just combine the sprites.
03:48<supermop>having 4 house bodies, 8 facades, and 3 roofs that are combined by the game lets me have lots of vareity in a small file?
03:48<supermop>or am i confused?
03:48<@planetmaker>supermop, "small file" is not a quality criterion
03:49<supermop>to be honest i want to render fewer times
03:49<@planetmaker>how important is it whether your grf is 5 MByte or 7?
03:49<@planetmaker>or 10?
03:49<supermop>isn't pinapple 160 or so?
03:49<andythenorth>it’s important that it’s not 100s
03:50<@planetmaker>Yes, it is. Takes me a few 10 seconds to download. Do I care?
03:50<@peter1138>YETI is 160MB.
03:50<andythenorth>how big is Zbase?
03:50<@peter1138>Pineapple is 200MB :D
03:50<@peter1138>328MB
03:51<@planetmaker>313MB
03:51<@peter1138>But ok, yes, you can do that.
03:51<supermop>ok
03:52<@peter1138>You might even be able to use registers and the like to avoid needing hundreds of layouts.
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03:53<@peter1138>Basically that is loading the CPU instead of memory.
03:53<supermop>other goal i had was to have some kind of switch in the nml so that when building terrace house A or whatever it picks facade Y or Z based on something, random, or tile coordinates or whatever?
03:53<@planetmaker>supermop, the point is, it's easier to programme. And easier and faster for OpenTTD itself, if it doesn't need to compose each house of many sprites.
03:53<@peter1138>(How much CPU, I don't know)
03:53<@planetmaker>and cpu is mostly the limiting factor in OpenTTD
03:54<supermop>other option is to write some script for rhino to randomly composite house parts
03:55<@planetmaker>supermop, you would not even need to do that in your renderer. Just have the renderer create the parts. And combine the parts in a simple 2D image processing programme
03:56<@planetmaker>thus no need to render zillion houses, just a bit composition in post-processing by combining different layers or hower you go for combining different house parts to a single sprite
03:56<@peter1138>Hmm, 100MB in a running game.
03:56<@peter1138>Meanwhile, firefox is at 1GB :o
03:57<@peter1138>gnome-shell is 961MB... but that's clearly some memory leak
03:57<@planetmaker>see. We can bloat our sprite cache by another factor of 10 :)
03:57<supermop>hah
03:57<@peter1138>rhythmbox 310MB... pulseaudio 213MB
03:57<@peter1138>why the fuck is everything so bloated these days
03:58<supermop>the metabolist in me was just fantasizing about dynamically/randomly generated buildings
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03:59<@planetmaker>supermop, it's well possible. So don't let us stop you :)
04:00<supermop>it's really TTo's fault as the nakagin building in the original graphics got me interested in metabolist architecture as a kid in 94
04:01<argoneus>good morning train friends
04:01<supermop>now i find myself so taken with the movement that i've made three pilgrimages to the real building and try to shoehorn metabolist ideas into any hobby project i come up with
04:02<@planetmaker>:D
04:02<@planetmaker>good enough reason, I say
04:03<supermop>so it's CS's fault i got a degree in such a silly profession
04:03<supermop>or simon foster's?
04:04<supermop>i think it is time for a bite to eat and a beer at the pub
04:04<supermop>appropriately named Tramway Hotel
04:04<supermop>i'll have more stupid questions in an hour or so
04:07<V453000>supermop doing them buildings? :)
04:08<andythenorth>huzzah
04:08<andythenorth>sprite theft ftw https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6720/broadrock.png
04:09<@peter1138>Lowres sprites ;(
04:11<LordAro>just zoom out
04:11<@peter1138>Then they're lowres and invisible.
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04:54<andythenorth>bah
04:54<andythenorth>\ / view compression
04:54*andythenorth is never sure what’s right
04:55<supermop>ok
04:55<supermop>beer consumed
04:55<supermop>andythenorth: beer is right
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>the \ / views are the "master"
04:56<supermop>V453000: sort of yes
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>the | –– views are distorted
04:58<supermop>mostly out of a sense that documenting local vernacular architecture will some how look like i did something worthwhile while here in the addenda of my portfolio
04:58<@peter1138>Yes, \ / should be considered canon.
04:58<supermop>so mostly bullshitting as it were, which my profession is founded upon
04:58<@peter1138>Forget the 32 pixel bullcrap that we got foisted with :S
04:59<andythenorth>hmm
04:59<andythenorth>but everyone draws the — first :P
04:59<supermop>i didnt really plan on rendering before talking the other evening though - i find getting textures and lighting right to be a huge pain
05:00<V453000>actually I always start with /
05:00<V453000>always
05:00<V453000>- can get anything done
05:00<supermop>i've only drawn buildings so me as well
05:00<V453000>\ and / is the tough part
05:00<V453000>XD
05:00<andythenorth>yes
05:00<andythenorth>fricking hate them
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05:01<V453000>supermop textures and lighting is easy
05:01<V453000>you just put one global light and done
05:01<V453000>texturing is more tedious, depends on the building
05:01<@peter1138>Also that PixelTool doesn't help.
05:01<V453000>for box-ish things it is super fast
05:01<andythenorth>also, for articulated trucks (trailer overlaps hauler), should I use short vehicle lengths?
05:01<V453000>non-box things can get a little bit complicated
05:01<supermop>finding good free high res textures that don't repeat in an obvious way is tricky
05:01<andythenorth>or just dibble the offsets?
05:01<V453000>yeah, hence I bought membership at cgtextures.com
05:02<supermop>in school i would draw in ink or charcoal buildings i had modeled in rhino for presentation
05:03<supermop>i also can't get my head round how things are 'skinned' in more conventional games
05:03<@planetmaker>cgtextures is non-free :(
05:03<supermop>the skins always look distorted in a way that i don't know how anyone would produce them correctly
05:03<V453000>skinning is generally meant to be rigging, look for mapping
05:03<V453000>yeah
05:03<V453000>unwrapping UVW
05:04<V453000>planetmaker, good things are not for free, yes.
05:04<V453000>they have free mode where you get lower resolutions
05:04<V453000>might suffice
05:04<supermop>ive gone out to take photos of bricks before actually
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05:04<@planetmaker>their license is explicit in being non-free
05:04<V453000>that is an option bug getting it to tile is not very easy
05:05<V453000>quite
05:05<@planetmaker>but if good stuff is not free, maybe we should start charging for OpenTTD.
05:05<@planetmaker>45€ might be appropriate per copy. Updates 5€ each
05:05<@planetmaker>buy a developer license for 200€ / year
05:05<V453000>that is something different I think
05:05*andythenorth hates everything to do with offsets
05:05<@planetmaker>get updates included in that, though. And preview of next version. It's exactly the same thing
05:06<V453000>you *can* search through other websites and find tileable high-res textures
05:06<V453000>OR you can pay to someone who bases his living on creating them
05:06<V453000>what is so bad about it
05:07<@planetmaker>I would pay for access to the site. The bad thing is I may not freely use the textures
05:07<@Rubidium>planetmaker: don't forget the "owners" of bananas vetting each and every upload
05:07<@planetmaker>Rubidium, sure, 30% goes to us on all income from newgrfs. Good thinking
05:08<V453000>re-using these textures to make them free would defeat the purpose of selling the site membership
05:08<@planetmaker>V453000, thus it's not the same thing. You not only pay for the service, but you're not even free to use the things to find as you see fit
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05:08<V453000>I believe you can use them as you see fit, you just cant assign them a free license
05:08<V453000>if I understand it correctly
05:09<@planetmaker>which means I can't use them as I see fit. It restricts my freedom to share the stuff I do as I see fit
05:09<@Rubidium>sounds like the Model-T Ford. You can get it in any colour you like, as long as it's black
05:09<@planetmaker>yeah
05:09<V453000>:D
05:10<V453000>that is the same as if it was legal to buy a music CD and re-distribute it freely
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05:10<V453000>open licensing is great for things you create, but for things you purchase it just doesnt make sense
05:11<@planetmaker>yeah. we actually do that with openttd. you can distribute it freely. People do that with a lot of software.
05:11<@planetmaker>err, that doesn't make sense, V453000
05:11<@Rubidium>V453000: but you're not buying music. Buying music is for people with loads of cash, e.g. Michael Jackson bought the Beatles music. You can merely hope to buy a license to play the music
05:11<V453000>yes because you Create it, you didnt Buy it from some source which makes a living out of getting money from it.
05:12<V453000>fine, so I am buying license to merely use the textures
05:12<V453000>I still dont see why should I ever be able to re-distribute them freely
05:13<V453000>what is the difference between that and piracy?
05:13<supermop>if you use them in a render and distribute that freely, it would be a violation
05:14<@planetmaker>V453000, ok, so we just continue to sell openttd? why should we distribute it freely?
05:14<V453000>yeah that is questionnable supermop
05:14<@planetmaker>we make a programme. they make a texture. same thing really
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>the "creator" of music is often distinct from the autotuned puppet that jumps up and down on the stage
05:14<V453000>planetmaker which source did you buy it from
05:15<V453000>as I said, things you create makes perfect sense to make open source
05:15<andythenorth>why don’t we sell OpenTTD?
05:15<@Rubidium>buying has nothing to do with whether you may (re)distribute something
05:15<V453000>but if I sell something, why should I allow people to give it to anybody else freely?
05:15<@planetmaker>V453000, why? cgtextures just made those textures, too. So they could share it for free, too?
05:15<V453000>of course I want other people to buy it the same way from me
05:15<V453000>sure, that is true
05:16<V453000>that is just the difference of openttd being a hobby and him creating textures being a job
05:16<@Rubidium>for example, there are quite a few libraries for which you can basically buy a "do whatever you want with it"-license, but the free one is GPL-ish
05:16*andythenorth is baffled
05:16<andythenorth>what are we arguing about?
05:16<V453000>hm :)
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05:17<Eddi|zuHause>topics are overrated.
05:17<@Rubidium>and to be honest, those libraries are ways for people to earn a living
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>just reply to random line, without context
05:18<andythenorth>I like the blue one
05:19<V453000>I am not sure what are we arguing about either
05:19<V453000>I dared buy textures
05:19<V453000>-> problem
05:20<@Rubidium>having said that, plenty of people in the open source software business are earning more than enough to sustain their way of live by providing paid services
05:20*andythenorth hmms
05:20<andythenorth>I am not setting custom offsets for every fricking articulated truck
05:20<andythenorth>there has to be a better way
05:20<V453000>you are andythenorth :)
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>there is a better way: proper templates
05:21<@Rubidium>also... buying textures isn't a problem, but depending on the license it can become a major pain-in-the-arse for others to help you with your models and/or to get the "compiled" by some public system (assuming NewGRFs)
05:21<supermop>andythenorth: sell offsets as service
05:22<V453000>yes it basically means I cannot give you my full source, only sprites
05:22<V453000>OR a white model
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: that also means you can't release your set under GPL at all
05:23<V453000>which I dont
05:23<@peter1138>andythenorth, make them all the same size, then the offsets will be the same
05:23<V453000>I believe CC BY SA allows not to give full source
05:24<@peter1138>andythenorth, also, sprite aligner :D
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: which also means no GPL set can include YETI graphics
05:24<V453000>yep, too bad
05:24<andythenorth>all trucks can have standard sizes
05:25<@peter1138>No yetis :S
05:25<V453000>then those sets have to use CC BY SA
05:25<V453000>which I dont see why would that be a big problem
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: have you ever followed a license discussion on the forum?
05:25<@peter1138>Ewww iroon
05:25<@peter1138>-o
05:25<V453000>not to a large extent, no Eddi
05:25<V453000>but what do you want me to do differently?
05:25<V453000>spend ages searching for textures? no thanks
05:26<V453000>release newgrf without open license? nice
05:26<@peter1138>Wait... you paid for those textures?
05:26<V453000>of course
05:26<@peter1138>Even the grass?
05:26<V453000>of course
05:26<V453000>everything
05:26<@peter1138>Because that grass is damned ugly.
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: they pretty much all go "we can't ask person X anymore about the license, we need to throw out their stuff and start over"
05:26<V453000>well that is mainly because it is not used very well peter
05:26<@peter1138>I assumed that was a placeholder for decent grass :S
05:26<andythenorth>if I went renderised, I’d just buy models and textures
05:27<andythenorth>otherwise, why?
05:27<V453000>yes Eddi because their stuff was without any license, not with GPL or CC
05:27<andythenorth>making decent textures takes *fricking* ages
05:27<andythenorth>easily as long as making pixel art
05:27<andythenorth>and then models have to be made too
05:27<andythenorth>the reason most of the rendered stuff looks shit is that it’s very time consuming to do well
05:27<V453000>modeled / mapped / textures / displacement maps / ...
05:28<andythenorth>rigged for animation
05:28<V453000>yes not even mentioning that
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: anyway, the main difference between CC and GPL is that with CC you're better off when you are the only person working on it, and GPL better if multiple people work on it
05:28<V453000>idk we are two working on YETI, what problem do we have?
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: when you leave and another person wants to take over
05:29<V453000>like wants to create models instead of me
05:29<V453000>sure that would be a problem
05:29<andythenorth>otoh
05:29<andythenorth>last year I was going to buy ~£2000 of stock photos, to use in a product
05:29<andythenorth>but
05:29<andythenorth>although the license included ‘for internet use'
05:29<V453000>at the same time what person will buy $5000 3ds max and $2000 Vray
05:30<andythenorth>it also forbade uploading it to any server or electronic retrieval mechanis,
05:30<andythenorth>mechanism *
05:30<V453000>to create newgrfs for openttd
05:30<andythenorth>so ummm
05:30<V453000>paying $100 for textures is the last expense then
05:30<V453000>without all those 3 things my source is worthless to anybody who wants to continue
05:30<@Rubidium>V453000: you definitely need to figure out copyright assignment, otherwise things get really fishy with respect to who is allowed to release and such
05:30<V453000>?
05:31<andythenorth>who are the textures licensed to?
05:31<V453000>me?
05:31<andythenorth>ok, so you’re allowed to release
05:31<andythenorth>probly
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: that's like asking "who will buy a computer just for working on a GPL project"
05:31<V453000>well the only person who has my credentials to bananas I believe is me
05:31<andythenorth>you and the NSA
05:31<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: yeah that is true
05:31<argoneus>that is what NSA wants you to believe
05:31<andythenorth>beat you
05:31<@Rubidium>V453000: after all, you claim CC-BY-SA for your bits, the other person does as well... so neither of you is legally allowed to merge both sets of bits into one thing
05:31<argoneus>andythenorth: I blme me having twice as long of a sentence
05:32<argoneus>blame*
05:32<V453000>so what would you suggest Rubi? :d
05:32<supermop>http://sectioncut.com/collections/mayangs-free-textures/
05:32<supermop>?
05:32<argoneus>don't use creative commons for code
05:32<andythenorth>argoneus: mine was longer, but the NSA took some bits out (redaction)
05:32<andythenorth>I would suggest coffee
05:32<andythenorth>and fixing my offsets
05:32<andythenorth>thanks
05:33<V453000>XD
05:33<@Rubidium>V453000: some sort of license between the two of you that you may do at least modifications and compilations of eachothers work for the project, and that you both may distribute the complete set under license X to others
05:34<supermop>V453000: you can avoid issues with non-free texture by just individually modeling each brick and granual of motar
05:34<V453000>that sounds quite reasonably Rubidium
05:34<V453000>I will discuss it with Sylf
05:34<andythenorth>the problem with you lot, is that you know if you don’t help me, I’ll go and figure it out myself :(
05:34<@Rubidium>V453000: it probably doesn't need to be much, but it's kinda required to stay legal. Another trick could be copyright assignment, but that's probably more cumbersome especially decising who gets the copyright
05:34<V453000>andythenorth: XD
05:35<V453000>I understand, thanks for the hint :)
05:35<argoneus>https://tldrlegal.com
05:35<argoneus>I like this site
05:35*andythenorth back to bed
05:37*V453000 lunch
05:44<supermop>anyone want to play some mhl mp?
05:46<Sacro>pbimttd?
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05:48<supermop>?????
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05:51<Eddi|zuHause>don't even try...
05:51<@peter1138>:D
05:51<@peter1138>Play by sending a floppy disk in the post...
05:51<@peter1138>Apparently people used to do that. I never bothered.
05:53<supermop>i once tried a 'null modem' game of tto with my neighbor
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>i heard it didn't have any desync checking at all
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>so you could happily play on with a person having an airport on one computer and not having it on the other computer
05:56<SHOTbyGUN>soo, how can I make this game harder :D ? I set ALL costs to double with BaseCosts mod, but still got 100milj+ cash after one day of playing :(
05:57<SHOTbyGUN>he hard patch is out of date am I right?
05:57<andythenorth>hard is boring
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>enable infrastructure maintenance
05:57<andythenorth>try a goal script instead
05:57<SHOTbyGUN>its enabled already =)
05:59<SHOTbyGUN>maybe I am just genious playing this game =)
05:59<SHOTbyGUN>but I guess I try that goal script next :o
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>the game is just terrible at balancing money
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>find another way to measure your success :p
06:00<andythenorth>also, it would be tedious to not make money
06:02<supermop>andythenorth: i find that true in my personal experience
06:03<SHOTbyGUN>yeah, money works great until you git 10milj+ ... I think taxing mod would be great where you could tax income 10% and tax profit 10%-50% that would balance the multiplayer experience =)
06:04<SHOTbyGUN>I suppose there is no API for editing money with NewGRF:s :( ?
06:04<SHOTbyGUN>what I looked there was just few hooks
06:04<argoneus>would it be possible
06:04<argoneus>to implement a "max station walking" config option?
06:04<argoneus>so my station could be 20 tiles wide, but max 1 tile of station walking
06:05<argoneus>so maximum 1 gap in the stations
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>SHOTbyGUN: generally that kind of thing would be a job for a game script
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: no
06:06<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: there is no way to check if a station is contiguous?
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: at least nobody ever implemented one
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: but what would that solve? you just end up with people building chains of road stops...
06:07<argoneus>well, right now
06:07<argoneus>if the max distance is 20
06:07<argoneus>oh, wait
06:07<argoneus>you are right
06:08<argoneus>people could just make millions of bus stations in cities
06:08<argoneus>for the same effect
06:08<argoneus>I just don't like it
06:08<argoneus>when people make a railroad station outside the city
06:08<argoneus>and a few bus stations all around the city
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>the world is not fair.
06:08<argoneus>is there no way to prevent that?
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>no
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>except making the station spread ridiculously low
06:11<andythenorth>station walking is a valid tactic
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>also, you use the term "station walking" incorrectly. "station walking" (before directly making disjoint stations possible) was a way to extend the station by placing road stops to your desired location, and then removing the road stops inbetween
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>the "walking" part referencing these in-between steps
06:12<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, probably some people don't know about ctrl :)
06:12<argoneus>wait
06:12<argoneus>how far could you station walk?
06:12<argoneus>I mean
06:13<andythenorth>up to max spread
06:13<@peter1138>Whatever station spread is set to.
06:13<argoneus>if you removed the road stations inbetween
06:13<argoneus>then station spread lowered again
06:13<argoneus>no?
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>no
06:13<argoneus>ohh
06:13<argoneus>wait
06:13<argoneus>you had to keep the one next to the industry
06:13<argoneus>silly me
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>"spread" is the distance between the outermost tiles
06:13<argoneus>hm
06:13<@peter1138>Remove spread all together.
06:13<argoneus>I thought it was station walking
06:13<argoneus>because people could walk between the stations
06:13<argoneus>for the same effect
06:13<@peter1138>Make catchment area based on the number of station tiles.
06:14<@peter1138>Then the only reason to spread is to make transfers easier
06:14<supermop>argoneus: that would be a neat and expensive feature for cargodist
06:15<argoneus>I wish cargodist actually did something
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: to visualize the "walking" part: in the beginning you were only allowed to have one bus stop and one truck stop per station, so you had to alternate between bus and truck stop for "walking"
06:15<@peter1138>before drive-through road stops, station walking was hard
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06:16<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: or do it like train fever: model each passenger from source to destination and back :p
06:16<@peter1138>cargodest?
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: even worse than that
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06:17<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: a passenger calculates the time that his route takes him (including walking and waiting for the train)
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: if it's > 10 minutes (of game time), the route is discarded, and a shorter route is tried
06:18<@peter1138>heh
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>if a train travels for 5 minutes, and a train leaves every 2 minutes, that leaves 3 minutes for walking
06:20<supermop>thats a pretty nice commute
06:20<supermop>although i had it beat when i lived in chinatown
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>cargo follows a similar logic, but i think i read it doesn't consider the waiting time
06:22<argoneus>I just thought of something
06:22<argoneus>you know how trains get old and need replacing, right
06:22<argoneus>why not railroads too?
06:22<argoneus>I'd imagine it might look cool to see sprites of rusty railroads that are barely used
06:22<argoneus>and trains crashing randomly when going over them
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>i would immediately disable that feature...
06:23<argoneus>people disable trains breaking down too
06:23<argoneus>but it might be fun
06:23*argoneus shrugs
06:23<supermop>also drivers should be careless and pass signals at danger if you are not careful in hiring and training them
06:23<argoneus>they already stop in the middle
06:23<argoneus>if the stars align
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: "fun" as in "every 10 years, drag&drop the 'upgrade rail' tool over the whole map"?
06:24<supermop>as well as providing regular company picnics to boost morale
06:24<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: you do that with trains already
06:24<argoneus>there's a feature for that
06:24<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: no of course not
06:24<argoneus>well, then
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06:24<supermop>you spend 10 years of every 10 years with the MOW crew closing sections of track
06:24<argoneus>railroads get rusty if no train passed over them in the past year
06:25<argoneus>then you'll also have help for load balancing
06:25<argoneus>or in the past X years
06:25<argoneus>though that sounds like a bitch to code
06:25<argoneus>actually not really
06:25<argoneus>that sounds really simple
06:25<argoneus>just add a counter to every railroad tile and set it back to 0 when a train passes over it
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>well, there's an old "grass over unused tracks" patch
06:26*argoneus shrugs
06:26<supermop>then a labor dispute breaks out while working on the mainline and the workers strike for 3 months leaving you with a single track and incorrect signalling
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i'm reading a bit of frustration :p
06:26<argoneus>supermop: why does that sound russian
06:27<supermop>in the mean time, all of your passengers get fed up with the delay and buy cars to just drive to work
06:27<argoneus>hm, you just reminded me
06:27<argoneus>does simcity have railroads?
06:27<argoneus>or just roads
06:27<argoneus>4 that is
06:27<argoneus>(the best one)
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:28<supermop>soon your company manager picture is weeping as he is left penniless - the board of directors is dismissing him over the poor handling of the situation
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>but station capacity is a pain, because it makes no difference of whether people get on/off, or pass through, or just are in the general area
06:29<argoneus>that's another good feature
06:29<argoneus>every 10 years, all company owners vote on the weakest director, and whoever receives most votes is closed down
06:29<argoneus>I should go to EA with my ideas
06:30<argoneus>an actual question, though
06:31<argoneus>have there ever been thoughts about connecting the website account to the game account?
06:31<argoneus>or generally the game having an account system
06:31<argoneus>with experience, levels, etc.?
06:31<supermop>citizens celebrate as all of the 'company founder' statues are torn down
06:31<argoneus>(along with keeping the "guest name" option, as it doesn't alter gameplay)
06:31<argoneus>or is this something no one cares about
06:32*argoneus would enjoy the "have 5000 trains" achievement
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: at any time in history, a central authentication system was discouraged for various reasons
06:33<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: is that mostly because of developer work needed and central server maintenance costs?
06:33<andythenorth>stuff like XP is meaningless, due to combinatorial explosion of maps, settings, newgrfs, GS
06:33*andythenorth -> nap time
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06:34<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: user inconvenience, data security, maintenance efforts, "the evil people are taking over", ...
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>the list of reasons why not to do it is loooooong
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06:55<@peter1138>argoneus, "game account" ?
06:55<@peter1138>Yeah, what Eddi|zuHause said.
06:55<@peter1138>Also, consider infrastructure maintenance to be paying for track upkeep.
06:56<argoneus>now that I think about it
06:56<argoneus>servers can implement their own account tracking if they want, right
06:56<argoneus>it's not hard, the things are there
06:56<@peter1138>Not really.
06:57<argoneus>you join
06:57<argoneus>server queries you for password if name is taken
06:57<argoneus>you pm the password, it either accepts or kicks you
06:57<argoneus>and stats are tracked server side
06:57<argoneus>can't it work like this?
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06:59<@peter1138>Possibly.
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07:00<@planetmaker>actually T B voiced such ideas of allowing user login. But time, sweet time :)
07:01<argoneus>T B?
07:02<@planetmaker>well, the guy who made the AI / GS framework
07:02<@planetmaker>and a lot of other stuff
07:02<argoneus>oh
07:03<@planetmaker>who wrote bananas, who wrote web translator and the whole website ;)
07:03<argoneus>sounds like a true bro
07:05<@planetmaker>partially. rather a true brain
07:06<argoneus>ohhh
07:06<argoneus>so that's what TB is
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07:06<liq3>o.o. increased height is crazy. 255 high maps wow.
07:07<argoneus>can anyone post a picture?
07:07<argoneus>I can't play right now (at work), but I am curious
07:07<liq3>of the increased height?
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>i'd probably settle for 64 or somesuch
07:07<argoneus>yes liq3
07:07<V453000>tbh the extra heights in extreme values just create straight up mountain
07:08<liq3>yeh sure
07:08<liq3>yeh lol.
07:08<V453000>would be nice if it was more varied like still hill, but not all the time to the top
07:08<V453000>great start though
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Thomson%20Co.,%2016.%20Sep%201922.png <- very old game i had
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07:08<liq3>argoneus: http://i.imgur.com/uOUY40w.png
07:09*andythenorth needs a bigger screen
07:09<andythenorth>for the bigger GUI
07:09<argoneus>oh wow
07:09<@peter1138>andythenorth, hahaha
07:09<argoneus>nice
07:09<V453000>well yeah thats just bullshit
07:09<argoneus>liq3: what does it look like zoomed in?
07:09<@peter1138>andythenorth, same :(
07:09<argoneus>can you even see the top?
07:09<V453000>land not useful for anything
07:09<liq3>argoneus: no :D
07:09<@peter1138>2x is just a little bit too much at 1680x1050 :(
07:09<V453000>can create some spectacular arctic scenarios yeah
07:09<andythenorth>rivers are still crap
07:09<@peter1138>it's better overall though
07:09<andythenorth>peter1138: industry window fills my screen
07:09<@peter1138>Rivers should be carved.
07:10<@peter1138>Try the airport construction window.
07:10<andythenorth>I have 1280x960 or something
07:10<argoneus>it's funny how you can just delte a river
07:10<argoneus>just delete it
07:10<argoneus>and it's gone
07:10<argoneus>but the part before and after still exists
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>it flows underground!
07:10<liq3>argoneus: maybe they put giant tunnels underground :D
07:10<andythenorth>oh cdist
07:10<andythenorth>you are funny
07:11<argoneus>mfw andythenorth has went to bed and to nap about 7 times in the past hour
07:11<@peter1138>Frustrating :(
07:12<andythenorth>I have a mine with 648t output
07:12<@peter1138>Cdest Cdest!
07:12<andythenorth>cdist is routing most of that to a 60t train
07:12<V453000>yacd yacd
07:12<andythenorth>instead of the 3x 240t trains
07:13<andythenorth>there must be some trick to win at this
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>Warning: reality distortion field detected. V is pro "destinations"
07:13<argoneus>like not transport one coal to multiple power plants
07:13<liq3>I feel like orders really aren't featureful enough for cdist. :<
07:14<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: I've been wondering for a while now
07:14<argoneus>is zuHause your status, like bob|afk, or is it part of your name? (and what does it mean?)
07:14<andythenorth>hmm
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: it's the location of the computer that i'm using.
07:14<V453000>sarcasm Eddi
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>means "at home"
07:15<V453000>but yacd was considerably less retarded than cdist
07:15<argoneus>oh
07:15<liq3>what's yacd?
07:15<V453000>except the ultimate mechanism was again station-station-station connection, even more than cdist XD
07:15<andythenorth>yacd is dead
07:15<andythenorth>somehow my config got blitzed, effect of distance got set back to 100%
07:15<argoneus>sounds like yet another cargo distribution
07:15<argoneus>or something
07:15<andythenorth>it was
07:15<andythenorth>exactly
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>no
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>it was destinations
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>not distribution
07:15<V453000>bad regardless XD
07:16<andythenorth>now it’s just dead
07:16<argoneus>reminds me of JASS from warcraft3
07:16<argoneus>just another scripting system
07:16<argoneus>what's with these uncreative names
07:16<V453000>but having cargo want somewhere was considerably nicer than havint it want somewhere After you give the possibility
07:16<@peter1138>YAPF... yet another path finder...
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>"destinations" is "people want to go from A to B, let's figure out how to get there". and "distribution" is "X% of people go in this general direction, let's see where they end up"
07:16<argoneus>I mean look at programming languages
07:16<@peter1138>yacd was nicer
07:16<argoneus>you find creative names like
07:17<argoneus>err, C.. wait, C#, no...
07:17<andythenorth>maybe I have to delete this small train
07:17<andythenorth>mostly with cdist I find that point-to-point is required
07:17<andythenorth>e.g. primary only goes to one secondary
07:17<argoneus>I found
07:17<argoneus>that cargodist works great for passengers
07:17<argoneus>but not so great for cargo
07:17<@peter1138>I don't think I have it enabled for cargo, indeed.
07:17<andythenorth>it’s worth it for not having to do transfers manually
07:18<@peter1138>Only passengers & mail.
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>at some point i really wanted to make a language called "Db", because "C#" feels so unnatural to my musical education
07:18<andythenorth>but you have to totally change play style
07:18<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: but i wouldn't rent a house from which i could not easily get to my work
07:18<andythenorth>and FIRS really needs re-designed for cdist
07:18<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: you must like F# then
07:18<supermop>to an extentreal humans only want to go where they can get to
07:19<andythenorth>it’s also weird how cdist will leave cargo sitting at a transfer station not loading
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: as i once put it: give me a tune with 8 'b' over one with 4 '#'
07:19<andythenorth>even though there is a vehicle loading for the next hop
07:19<andythenorth>I wouldn’t mind, except I don’t know what the win condition is
07:19<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: I don't understand
07:19<andythenorth>I don’t know how I’m supposed to make this work
07:20<andythenorth>oh it’s not waiting
07:20<andythenorth>I’m on planned view
07:20<supermop>andythenorth: ive never had much trouble with firs and cd
07:20<argoneus>I wonder
07:20<argoneus>would it be possible to implement something like a "schematizer" ?
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: in musical notation, the same notes can have different names. so "C-sharp" is the same not as "D-flat"
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>*note
07:20<argoneus>like, it makes a graph with all the active industries, and colored links between them according to players
07:20<andythenorth>I’m ging to delete a train
07:21<argoneus>so you could tell from a graph who is transporting what where, would that be feasible?
07:21<supermop>i have a bit more trouble with all of the food i've made solely of cardboard boxes
07:21<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: oh
07:21<argoneus>so X# is always Db?
07:21<argoneus>Yb *
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>no
07:21*argoneus has no concept of musical theory
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>some notes only have a half-tone between them, so E# = F, and Fb = E
07:22<argoneus>why would anyone use Fb instead of E?
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>it happens
07:23<andythenorth>hmm
07:23<argoneus>anyway
07:23<andythenorth>deleting the train worked, cdist only has one destination for this cargo now
07:23<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: the towns in your screenshot look a bit absurd
07:23<andythenorth>so balancing is a non-issue
07:23<argoneus>is it difficult to parse ottd savegames?
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes for notational purposes it is better to switch the F->Fb once, and then have alternating Fb and Eb, instead of switching between E and Eb
07:23<argoneus>like, is the format any difficult to read?
07:24<supermop>not as much as the sawmill hanging on the side of a precipice
07:24<argoneus>as in, could one find what cargo player X is transporting from parsing a savefile?
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: the format is simple, but a lot of required metadata is only documented in the code, not part of the savegame
07:24<argoneus>or is savefile just raw compressed info about tiles etc
07:24<argoneus>oh
07:25<@peter1138>It's binary.
07:26<argoneus>doesn't sound like a problem if you have the spec
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: it's probably easier to start up openttd, and ask it stuff about the loaded savegame via the admin port
07:27<@peter1138>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UWtcSvtiQw The F# song
07:27<argoneus>I just had an idea for a program
07:27<argoneus>that analyzes a savegame
07:27<argoneus>and makes a graph or such
07:27<argoneus>sounds difficult but possible?
07:27<argoneus>I mean
07:28<argoneus>there already is a program that analyzes a savegame and lets you ride and make trains on it
07:29<SpComb>I want something that exports giant-screenshot pixel coordinates for various towns, stations etc on the map
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that is really painful :p
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: there have been patches that export graphs from a savegame.
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>or minimap screenshots
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>and stuff
07:33<argoneus>I guess everything has been done :(
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07:37<@peter1138>Urgh, I still have connections from IE6 on XP...
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: just reject those :p
07:41-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@88.130.182.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>btw, the fun really starts when you use double-b or double-# :p
07:43<V453000>DDs are always fun
07:44<V453000>oh b
07:44<V453000>hm damn :-D
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>quite :p
07:44<V453000>two Bs are good too.
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>except that case is relevant here
07:45<@peter1138>I tend to not bother trying to play it if it's got doubles...
07:46<argoneus>check my dubs
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the typical keys i dabble in have 2,3 or 4 b. in extreme cases 0 or 6 b
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>which means # are really really rare
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>and puzzle me every time they appear
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>there was a time where even a lack of Eb would throw me off, but i *think* i got past that :p
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>lack of Bb is still tricky
08:01<@planetmaker>argoneus, that programme exists. It's OpenTTD itself ;)
08:07<supermop>night
08:07<@peter1138>Don't you mean OpenTDD?
08:07-!-supermop [~daniel_er@d110-33-191-31.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: supermop]
08:11<andythenorth>flickering ships are flickering
08:12<@peter1138>Then they're too long, or the offsets are wrong.
08:12<andythenorth>too long
08:12<andythenorth>and there’s about 5 of them trying to occupy same position
08:13<andythenorth>due to bunching
08:13<andythenorth>also, annoying shrinking towns
08:13<andythenorth>town ‘grows’
08:13<andythenorth>but with smaller buildings
08:13<andythenorth>yay
08:13<andythenorth>well that’s one solution to cdist
08:14<andythenorth>‘too many pax’ is solved
08:14<@peter1138>SQUID? SQUID is pretty good with sizes and bounding boxes.
08:14<andythenorth>the big paddle steamer
08:15<@peter1138>Yeah
08:16<andythenorth>it’s fine except when they bunch
08:16<andythenorth>and they bunch all the time
08:16<@peter1138>Timetables
08:16<andythenorth>don’t work
08:16<andythenorth>I spent ages following the instructions
08:16<@peter1138>full-load
08:16<andythenorth>full load works
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08:17<andythenorth>need FIFO ships
08:17<@peter1138>multiple docks
08:18<andythenorth>there was a patch for that
08:18<andythenorth>I saw it
08:18<@peter1138>Yeah, someone definitely had a patch for it.
08:18<andythenorth>hmm
08:19<andythenorth>I declare Road Hog playable, as long as you only want the trams. So until 1940. And no cargo sprites
08:20<andythenorth>hmm
08:20<andythenorth>game is still fun
08:22*peter1138 ponders retrying it.
08:22<andythenorth>someone want to translate Iron Horse into English?
08:22<andythenorth>en-gb
08:23<andythenorth>I have it all in US
08:23<andythenorth>due to reasons
08:24<andythenorth>if bouys could be docks
08:33<andythenorth>game is too addictive
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08:58<@peter1138>http://i.imgur.com/fHEG1VM.png :o
09:02-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@88.130.182.166] has joined #openttd
09:11<Flygon_>peter1138: That's strangely pretty
09:11-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: the shadows are all wrong
09:33<@peter1138>Well...
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>some shadows are from the left, others from the top left, and others from the top right
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>and others are missing completely
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>also, there is no sane reason why there would be a park on a dock :p
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>"operator of nuclear power stations wants to go out with a bang!"
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>(or: "vattenfall sues german government over decision to quit nuclear power, demands 4,7 Mrd €")
09:43<Pikka>need ships that don't/can't/try not to go through each other. :D
09:43*Pikka had a thought about a pathfinder that makes ships slow down and try to avoid each other, and coastlines.
09:43<@peter1138>:S
09:44<@peter1138>But it's a train game
09:44<Pikka>so, like, ships go slower when they're near a shore. and try and pass each other to the... I want to say right.
09:45<Pikka>congested waterways = slower boots. it's like the "different speeds on canals and 'ocean'" idea, only more organic and more sensible. and more "realistic". :)
09:45<Pikka>I know, it's just a notion. I don't suppose I'll do anything about it.
09:45<Pikka>:P
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: there was such a pathfinder on the forums. afair this just made the ships behave weirdly and block each other
09:47<Pikka>that just means the implementation was bad. not necessarily the concept. ;)
09:47<Pikka>anyway, I must to bed
09:47<Pikka>tomorrow my group is going to attempt to do about 3 weeks worth of work in 2 hours, before our major presentation for the semester. :)
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>no amount of implementation will solve your problems with a not well-thought concept
09:48<Pikka>have you ever known me to have a not-well-thought concept? ;)
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>have i ever known you?
09:49<Pikka>to have a not-well-thought concept.
09:49<Pikka>except regearing
09:49<Pikka>and all those other ones
09:49<Pikka>goodnight :)
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09:54<Flygon>RE: The ship thing
09:54<Flygon>The insane idea would be to implement railway style shipping lanes
09:54<Flygon>Signals, crossing loops, and all
09:54<Flygon>For areas that're thinner than 2 tiles wide obviously
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09:57<Eddi|zuHause>if only there were "exactly one" insane idea
10:01<@planetmaker>Flygon, but that would be unrealistic ;)
10:02<Flygon>Screw realism
10:02<Flygon>Trains in OTTD don't shunt the loco to the rear when they reverse :D
10:02<@planetmaker>it would rather be realistic to add different buoys. Which indicate starbord and portside of passages etc :P
10:03<@peter1138>Different buoys? Just go either side of one :p
10:04<@planetmaker>:) also might add new disaster: a ship which runs into ground when passing buoy on wrong side. Would amount to breakdown or so :P
10:04<@planetmaker>green buoys are those with the pointy end :P. The red ones have a flat top. Tendentially ;)
10:05<liq3>Hey, what does the "passengers/mail last month" mean on the town window?
10:05<Flygon>Unsure if taking me for ride :P
10:06-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
10:07<@peter1138>andythenorth will doit.
10:07-!-Pinkbeast [damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving]
10:08<andythenorth>it’s done
10:12-!-TomyLobo [~foo@91.65.115.103] has joined #openttd
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>liq3: same as the "production last month" of industries
10:15<liq3>Eddi|zuHause: good to know. thought so.
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>base production modified by station rating
10:15<argoneus>(who here hype for warlords of draenor?)
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>never heard of that
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10:33<@peter1138>Ah, I remember the problem with multistop docks...
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10:54<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: you don't play videogames?
10:54<argoneus>I thought most everyone has heard about world of warcraft by now :<
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>not ALL of them...
10:55<@peter1138>I've heard of WoW, but that's about it.
10:56<andythenorth>hmm
10:56<andythenorth>Warcraft 1
10:56<andythenorth>my liege
10:57<argoneus>if I may ask, just out of curiosity
10:57<argoneus>how old are you guys?
10:57<andythenorth>old
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>i dabbled in warcraft 3 for a little bit
10:57<argoneus>I'm just wondering if there's a generation gap or if our hobbies are so far apart or both
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>but the whole "quickly build up" style of gameplay is not for me
10:57<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: you should give the Anno series a spin
10:57<argoneus>or europa universalis
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>i've not tried WoW at all
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still terrible in path of exile...
10:59-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:59<argoneus>ah, PoE
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>i have next to zero reflexes :p
10:59<argoneus>now you're talking
10:59<argoneus>wait, how old are you?
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>not as old as peter and andy :p
10:59<argoneus>are we talking first digit >= 3?
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>i'm old enough to have played civilization 1
11:00<argoneus>I have played old games too :<
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>i meant when they were new games :p
11:00<argoneus>like commander keen
11:01<andythenorth>I was too young for commander keen
11:01<andythenorth>because nobody had a PC then
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>i've never really gotten into commander keen
11:01<andythenorth>also we were too busy playing Lotus Turbo Esprit
11:01<andythenorth>and Chocks Away
11:02<argoneus>the first game I fell in love with was age of empires 1
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: by that definition, yes, i'm old. :p
11:02<argoneus>and then ttd
11:02<argoneus>is anyone here first digit >= 4?
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>certainly
11:02<argoneus>oh, wow
11:02<argoneus>even 5?
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>probably
11:03<argoneus>I'll rather not ask further
11:05<andythenorth>not me
11:05<andythenorth>yet
11:06<Flygon>Man
11:06-!-luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
11:06<Flygon>Hard to claim playing Ragnarok Online when it was new as being old :U
11:06<Flygon>Insert joke about how that also uses .grf files here
11:08<@peter1138>I played Commander Keen, when it was cool.
11:08*Rubidium feels old compared to andythenorth
11:11<@Rubidium>argoneus: there are even people in here with children where first digit >= 4
11:12<@planetmaker><argoneus> [15:02:20] the first game I fell in love with was age of empires 1 <-- haha. By that definition... the first game I loved so much that I bought it was Civ I. On four state-of-the-art 3.5" floppy disks
11:12<argoneus>like, person here that has a child that is >= 4?
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: it's really not that hard to have 4 year old children :p
11:12<argoneus>oh
11:12<argoneus>fuck
11:12*argoneus got tricked
11:13<argoneus>oh also
11:13<argoneus>unreal tournament 1999
11:13<@Rubidium>anyone remember Stunts? I guess that's about the first game I remember liking a lot
11:13<argoneus>such a great game
11:13<argoneus>Rubidium: I played that!
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: where you built race tracks and then ran on them?
11:13-!-Celestar [~Celestar@mnch-5d877829.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
11:14<argoneus>I played a lot of NES too :D
11:14<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yeah,t hat one
11:14<argoneus>excite bike and battle city best
11:14<@Rubidium>oh... it's even pre Civ I and definitely pre AoE
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>that was fun, but i always crashed on the "screwdrivers" :p
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't actually _buy_ that many games :p
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>i bought Settlers, and TT, and then nothing for a long time...
11:15<NGC3982>What Settlers?
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>the original.
11:16<argoneus>I only played S3 :<
11:16<NGC3982>I just bought a new computer and tried out the 7th instance of the game.
11:16<NGC3982>It's actually pretty good.
11:16<argoneus>you done fucked up
11:16<argoneus>S7 is not settlers
11:16<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, buy? what is that?
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: the one with the terrible always-on-drm?
11:16<argoneus>S7 is a strategy game with a zone control system
11:16<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: yes
11:16<argoneus>it's not settlers
11:16<NGC3982>Pretentious nostalgia doesn't coun't.
11:16<argoneus>if you want something recent
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>who would ever buy that?
11:16<NGC3982>Also: Warez
11:16<argoneus>play the 2nd anniversary one
11:17<argoneus>no NGC3982, it's not nostalgia
11:17<argoneus>it's NOTHING like the old settlers
11:17<argoneus>1-6 are way different from 7
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>s2tng was nice
11:17<NGC3982>The last Settlers game i bought was that Kings thing
11:17<argoneus>play settlers 2 10th anniversary or settlers 4
11:17<NGC3982>I think it's ..4?
11:17<argoneus>5
11:17<argoneus>or 6
11:17<NGC3982>Romans, Vikings, etc's.
11:17*Rubidium thought games like CoD were the newer versions of Settlers
11:17<NGC3982>Non-3D.
11:17<argoneus>oh
11:17<NGC3982>Or 2D, as the elders call it
11:17<argoneus>then could've been 4
11:17<argoneus>4 is great
11:18<argoneus>10th anniversary is good
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>i think i played some demo of 3
11:18<argoneus>7 is not settlers
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>it was terrible
11:18<argoneus>are you sure it was 3
11:18<argoneus>I loved 3 :(
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>i went back to playing 2
11:18<NGC3982>It was 4 i ment
11:18<NGC3982>I guess it's "really" 3D
11:18<@Rubidium>NGC3982: proper 2D, or 2D-ish like OpenTTD (compared to proper 3D)
11:18<NGC3982>2D-ish is more correct, sure.
11:18<@peter1138>Doom 2D :D
11:19<NGC3982>http://modsreloaded.com/downloads/s7owvkxmt3/k8p8pgpich.jpg
11:19<argoneus>wolfenstein.... 3D!
11:19<NGC3982>There we are.
11:19<NGC3982>That's <3.
11:19<argoneus>NGC3982: yeah that's 4
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: the whole path management thing was missing
11:19<NGC3982>But yes, except for the DRM (wish i did not have to take part in), the game itself is really good.
11:20<argoneus>S7 is a fine game
11:20<argoneus>but it's not settlers
11:20<argoneus>:<
11:20<NGC3982>:|
11:20<@peter1138>OpenTTD is not TTD
11:20<argoneus>no
11:20<NGC3982>NGC3982 is not a galaxy
11:20<argoneus>it's like
11:21<argoneus>if they made starcraft into a turn based game
11:21*peter1138 ponders changing docks
11:21<argoneus>and called it starcraft 3
11:21<argoneus>would it be starcraft?
11:21<NGC3982>argoneus: Yes, it would. I get your point, but games do actually change.
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: you mean like when they made warcraft from a RTS into a RPG?
11:21*argoneus shrugs
11:21<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: W3 is a RTS with RPG elements
11:21<NGC3982>Isn't Metroid for Gamecube still a Metroid game?
11:22<argoneus>tthe thing is
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>or didn't they make command&conquer into an FPS game?
11:22<argoneus>with settlers 1-6, you had your territory, you could buiold everywhere in it, or expand it
11:22<argoneus>in S7, there's a zone based system, instead of territory, so you claim zones
11:22<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: yes, renegade
11:22<NGC3982>Blizzard themselves are quite clear with the distinction on that Warcraft != World of Warcraft
11:22<argoneus>it was a good game
11:23<NGC3982>Since there has been some buzz about a new Warcraft game.
11:23<argoneus>a new warcraft game is not happening
11:23<NGC3982>As a direct follow-up to the Frozen Throne add-on.
11:23<argoneus>the lore has been butchered too much
11:23<NGC3982>E3 seemed to think otherwise
11:23<NGC3982>But i have no idea, really.
11:23<argoneus>blizzard promised project titan too
11:23<argoneus>and now it's cancelled
11:23<NGC3982>What'zat.
11:23<argoneus>it was supposed to be a new MMO
11:24<argoneus>in development since like 2008 or so
11:24<argoneus>they cancelled it a month ago
11:30<@planetmaker>peter1138, rather add to docks :) So that they can be freely built like train stations
11:30<@peter1138>Yeah, that might be an idea.
11:31<@planetmaker>probably it needs dock tiles and non-dock tiles
11:31<@peter1138>Build dock on land, any water adjacent to it can be docked at?
11:31<@planetmaker>thus multi-dock is the hidden feature beneath this idea :P
11:31<@peter1138>multistop dock is a red herring i think
11:31<@planetmaker>peter1138, I guess the devil is in the path finder part in it :)
11:32<@peter1138>planetmaker, yes. actually doing multistop for docks is easy
11:32<@planetmaker>...but?
11:32<@peter1138>but the path finding isn't
11:33<@peter1138>At least, as I remember it :)
11:33<andythenorth>bouys as docks
11:33<@peter1138>All the multistop stuff (and train platforms too) relies on landing on the stop directly
11:33<andythenorth>solves the inland-flat-docks pony
11:33<@peter1138>but ships have to stop next to it
11:34<@peter1138>newdocks
11:34<andythenorth>state machine
11:34<@peter1138>So I'm thinking... keep a list per station of dockable tiles as well
11:35<@planetmaker>peter1138, well. That could actually be solved. By explicitly introducing a dock tile which must be water
11:35<@peter1138>then you can keep the traditional dock
11:35<@peter1138>yeah true could be that indeed
11:35<@planetmaker>savegame conversion for funky edge cases might be tricky (where the dock is surrounded by only shore)
11:35<@peter1138>problem with that is you can current place docks and have part of the docking area blocked
11:36<@planetmaker>But I'd really like a solution where you can define the loading places next to stations
11:36<@planetmaker>could make for interesting harbours.
11:37<@planetmaker>dunno what you mean with 'have part of the docking area blocked'
11:37<@planetmaker>you mean some water part made inaccessible?
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'd much rather have airport-like dock layouts
11:40<@planetmaker>one-stop big ports?
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, one port with multiple loading bays
11:41<@planetmaker>tile-based like stations is nicer, I think
11:42<andythenorth>+1
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>+1 to what?
11:42<andythenorth>tile based
11:42<andythenorth>having duly considered the options
11:42<andythenorth>in depth
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with "tile based" is that ships are longer than a tile, so they will probably overlap again
11:43<Taede>make the loading 'tiles' 2x1?
11:44<@planetmaker>for instance
11:44<andythenorth>are we solving overlapping?
11:44<@planetmaker>or solve that in the first place
11:45<andythenorth>I just want to be able to bridge peninsulas without mass land lowering
11:45<andythenorth>also inland docks
11:45<@planetmaker>also we now have so much height we could introduce a global sealevel variable ;)
11:50<@peter1138>planetmaker, please
11:50<@peter1138>Pointless, but still.
11:50<@peter1138>MineOpenTTD.
11:50<@peter1138>Make sealevel at 64.
11:51<@peter1138>airport-like docks really wouldn't work
11:51<@peter1138>Too restrictive in regards to location
11:51<argoneus>is there a maximum theoretical map size?
11:51<argoneus>after which the game would crumble
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of "theory"?
11:52<Taede>4kx4k can make the game crumble already, depending on the machine
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>speed? memory?
11:52<argoneus>speed
11:52<argoneus>you can always buy more memory
11:52<argoneus>:^)
11:52<@Rubidium>even 64x64 can be dead slow
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11:53<Eddi|zuHause>there were some versions of ECS where even without any vehicles, a 2kx2k map was unplayably slow
11:53<argoneus>oh wow
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11:53<@Rubidium>just try to play in a completely emulated environment (e.g. ppc pearpc instance on a x86 processor)
11:53<@planetmaker>peter1138, the point would be andy's pony of extending water types to distinguish coastal and high sea
11:54-!-Klanticus [~quassel@187.39.191.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:54<@peter1138>huh?
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>my 386-DX25 was so slow that with 80 trains on a 256x256 map, TT was basically unplayable
11:54<@peter1138>Oh, water depth, right.
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: you can also "always" buy a faster computer
11:55<@planetmaker>yup, that
11:56<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: don't forget to quote "faster" ;)
11:56<@Rubidium>arguably a quite old GPU could get way more performance in full screen with 8bpp palette animation than you ever can with a recent GPU
11:57<@Rubidium>even though a recent GPU has one or two orders more Hzs
11:57-!-TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:57<@peter1138>Yes, DGA mode was stupidly fast.
11:57<@peter1138>But DGA is no longer possible.
11:57<andythenorth>well
11:58<andythenorth>I got bored of the water types extension
11:58<andythenorth>but feel free :)
11:58<@peter1138>Can we have triremes that get lost at sea?
11:58<andythenorth>probly
11:58<@peter1138>And hoards of barbarians, obviously.
11:59<@peter1138>Civ I was the best
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12:07<luaduck>are there any station designs for a 4 lines in roro?
12:07<luaduck>2 lines is ez but 4 lines is stumping me
12:07<@planetmaker>you mean 4 incoming tracks or 4 station tracks?
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>4 lines is easy, just build the same thing again
12:09<luaduck>4 incoming lines
12:09<NGC3982>A thing i have been thinking of
12:09<NGC3982>Oh, wrong channel.
12:09<andythenorth>peter1138: did your multistop idea mean one ship per stop?
12:10*andythenorth assumes that
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>wouldn't make a lot of sense otherwise
12:11<@peter1138>no
12:11<@planetmaker>luaduck, easiest build one station for each line without mixing. And do a station exit with a choice onto the four lanes
12:11<luaduck>hmm, was what I was thinking too
12:11<luaduck>ta
12:12<@planetmaker>7 or 8 station tracks per incoming line
12:12<@planetmaker>going to get huge :)
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't mean the 28-32 tracks must be next to each other
12:13<@planetmaker>no. But leaving much space wouldn't make it smaller ;)
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>no, but it could be one of those "interwoven" designs, where two separate stations are in front of each other
12:14<@planetmaker>could. But I don't see how that would help
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>so one station with 16 tracks, and another station with 16 tracks, and tunnels underneath
12:15<@planetmaker>uh... no. That will lead to serious congestion under most configurations
12:16<@peter1138>3D Layers, stations above...
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>alternatively, 2 station tracks+1 through track
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>would become 24-ish wide
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>but probably not as long
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but i don't see how it would congest, if you split 1 line into 4 tunnels
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>and each tunnel into 2 station tracks
12:18<@peter1138>Hmm, so, either I have replace water tiles with a dockable "water" station tile, or maintain a list of dockable tiles within the station struct.
12:19<@peter1138>I think the latter would be more compatible with existing docks.
12:20<@peter1138>Or forget about it.
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'd try the former
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>upon loading a savegame, you can automatically convert tiles next to old docks
12:21<@peter1138>Which may or may not be land.
12:21<@peter1138>But I guess that's okay.
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>sure, just don't convert land tiles
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12:25<@peter1138>Meh, currently I have ships doing circles :D
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12:32<andythenorth>lost trireme innit
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12:40<Eddi|zuHause>just save and reload until it succeeds
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12:40<Eddi|zuHause>you can easily go from africa to south america that way
12:41<@peter1138>Hmm, oh, it's only the end-tile that can be docked with
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>that should probably change
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12:42<Eddi|zuHause>especially if you disallow two ships docking at the same place (which you should)
12:44<andythenorth>:(
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12:51<andythenorth>single dock tiles on water
12:52<andythenorth>looks like a bouy
12:52<andythenorth>:P
12:52<andythenorth>if you want jetties and stuff, build rail station tiles
12:52<@peter1138>marico
12:53<andythenorth>or that
12:53<andythenorth>except it’s objets
12:53<@peter1138>So basically, a dock needs to have water at the end.
12:54<andythenorth>do it as single water tiles, it will :P
12:54<andythenorth>and river docks get solved
12:54<@peter1138>But it seems silly doing it that way
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12:57<Eddi|zuHause>that's the part that's "wrong" for rivers. the water should be on the side there
12:58<@peter1138>?
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>it's next to impossible to put a dock on a river
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>you need to make a large canal area, and then raise some land
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12:59<andythenorth>single water tile dock
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>instead you should be able to just put something on the side of the river where the ships will dock to
13:01<andythenorth>how do you guarantee water?
13:01<andythenorth>what if I bulldoze the water tile?
13:01<@peter1138>then you can't dock there
13:01<frosch123>you can also not remove water under buoys
13:02<andythenorth>if water tile, can build arbitrary transfer stations o_O
13:02<andythenorth>at sea
13:03<frosch123>the question is rather whether such docks would have an orientation
13:03<andythenorth>na
13:03<frosch123>i.e. if you have canal - land - canal
13:03<frosch123>can ships dock on both sides?
13:04<frosch123>or does the dock have some specific loading tiles within the neighboured canal/river?
13:04<@Rubidium>frosch123: I guess so
13:04<@peter1138>then you can't dock there
13:04<@peter1138>err
13:05<@Rubidium>ship_cmd.cpp:281
13:05<frosch123>Rubidium: weren't we talking about flat docks for rivers?
13:05<frosch123>or did i miss another commit? :p
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13:06<andythenorth>single tile multi-stop docks, with cabeese
13:06<@Rubidium>oh... "docks" have a "configurable" offset
13:09<@Rubidium>frosch123: you didn't miss any commit
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13:09<@peter1138>Hmm, maybe I just found the bug :p
13:09*peter1138 compiles again
13:11<@peter1138>Oh, now it just crashes :D
13:14<@peter1138>Oops.
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13:35<@planetmaker>hm, where can I see the autoreplace protection icon?
13:36<@planetmaker>ah... nvm :)
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13:38<@planetmaker>peter1138, the size of the tooltip window does not scale with font size at all. That's... funky. It gets too small for some words
13:38<@planetmaker>and is not adjusted for widest word either
13:39<@peter1138>Yup
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13:42<andythenorth>live spacewalk video is quite interesting
13:42<andythenorth>not much actually happens
13:43<@Alberth>I would expect so :)
13:44<andythenorth>http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html#.VD6pzEvWJMH
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27019 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-10-15 17:46:35 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 3 changes by juanjo
13:46<@DorpsGek>croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<@DorpsGek>romanian - 19 changes by kitguyy
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 6 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:46<@DorpsGek>spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
13:49<andythenorth>hmm
13:49<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6721/articulated_trucks.png
13:50<@Alberth>ha, a load wants to go straight :)
13:50<andythenorth>well
13:50<andythenorth>the sprites are 5.5/8 long
13:50<andythenorth>but setting the vehicles to 4/8 made them overlap correctly in most views
13:50<andythenorth>but looks bloody awful in turns
13:51<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6722/articulated_trucks_bb.png
13:52<andythenorth>thought it would be a nice quick cheat :P
13:52<@Alberth>so much truck outside the bounding box!
13:52<andythenorth>so much
13:52<andythenorth>I can’t remember how this is done in HEQS
13:53<andythenorth>probably badly
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: more turning angles :p
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: instead of 4+4, make it 2+6
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>or something
13:59<@peter1138>Yeah, it's best to put the vehicle inside the BB.
13:59*peter1138 gives up on docks and reverts again.
14:04<andythenorth>sad times :(
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14:10<@planetmaker>the error window has the same sizing problem as the tooltip window
14:12<@peter1138>Yeah our window system is still all geared up for pixel sizes.
14:14<@planetmaker>highscore window is also ugly with 2x fonts
14:15<@Alberth>just delete it, together with the score window? :)
14:16<@peter1138>We have a high score window? :p
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i've never even reached 2050
14:17<@peter1138>Ah, it doesn't scale to font size. In that case it would've looked bad with any non-standard font size.
14:17<@peter1138>Still, as double ui = double fonts now, that should be easily fixable.
14:19<andythenorth>2/8 and 6/8 might work
14:19<frosch123>people complained about the difficulty settings missing
14:19<frosch123>but noone noticed that i trashed 4/5 of the highscore lists
14:19<frosch123>or 3/4?
14:20<andythenorth>what went missing? o_O
14:20<frosch123>well, there were separate highscore lists per difficulty level :p
14:21<frosch123>now only the custom and the fake-multiplayer (or something like that) exists
14:23<@peter1138>heh
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>who really ever played the standard difficulties?
14:23<frosch123>exactly :)
14:24<@Alberth>only with the original program :)
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14:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r27020 /trunk/src (16 files in 8 dirs) (2014-10-15 18:31:37 UTC)
14:31<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup: some coding style consistency improvements (mostly spaces)
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14:49<andythenorth>hmm
14:50<andythenorth>I need an additional set of offsets
14:50<andythenorth>for vehicles that are x/8 long, faking being y/8 long
14:50<andythenorth>fun times
14:51<@Alberth>:o
14:51<@Alberth>for some reason you always manage to add new layers of complexity :)
14:52<andythenorth>:(
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14:55<frosch123>andythenorth: you know, if you have offsets once, you can adjust them by adding (2,1) to other bounding box sizes
14:55<andythenorth>?
14:55<andythenorth>I can?
14:55<frosch123>if you have correct offsets for one size, you can compute the offsets for a different size
14:56<andythenorth>I wondered about that
14:56<andythenorth>I was trying to see the pattern
14:56<andythenorth>the patterns seem to be odd
14:56<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pyys9d3qd
14:57<frosch123>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/736eaa0417fa/src/table/station_land.h#l46 <- ottd also shifts positions around
14:57<andythenorth>also bears no relation to in game sprite aligner, I gave up on that
14:59<andythenorth>hmm
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14:59<andythenorth>I’m not compressing \ / views enough in my drawing I think
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15:01<@peter1138>You're not compressing -- | views enough
15:02<Wolf01>hi hi
15:02<andythenorth>well
15:02<andythenorth>a – view that is 6/8 should be 24px wide, no?
15:03<@peter1138>No because 32px wide was BAD FEATURE
15:03<andythenorth>and then the side of the vehicle in / will measure about 11px or so
15:03<@peter1138>Ask pikka
15:04<andythenorth>pikka has views
15:05<andythenorth>HEQS always looks daft because the \ / are too long
15:05<andythenorth>same with Squid
15:06<@peter1138>default -- view is 28 pixels
15:06<@peter1138>\ is about 14/15 pixels
15:06<@peter1138>(for the side)
15:06<frosch123>16 minus inter-vehicle spacing
15:07<@peter1138>Yeah
15:07<andythenorth>hmm
15:07<@peter1138>Compare your vehicles in a bounding box to do the default vehicles
15:07<andythenorth>Dan’s sprites have 28px – views matched with 13px / \
15:08<@peter1138>And use TTD graphics, not OpenGFX.
15:08<andythenorth>always :P
15:09<@peter1138>Also remember for road vehicles / and \ are your priority.
15:09<@peter1138>They're less often seen in | and - views
15:09<andythenorth>so default vehicles fit the \ / BB perfectly
15:10<andythenorth>give or take 1px
15:10<@peter1138>Yeah, and they're 8/8
15:10<andythenorth>and they’re only 28px or so in – view?
15:10<@peter1138>exactly 28px, yes
15:10<andythenorth>hmm
15:11<andythenorth>so they’re not 8/8
15:11<andythenorth>but they are 8/8
15:11<andythenorth>wonderful
15:11<@peter1138>but the bounding box goes weird in that case
15:11<@peter1138>they're 8/8
15:11<@peter1138>32px is wrong, as i said :p
15:11<andythenorth>so who smoked crack?
15:11<@peter1138>sawyer
15:11<andythenorth>well that’s a bugger isn’t it
15:17*andythenorth FML
15:17<andythenorth>redraw all the things
15:18<frosch123>question is though, why are default vehicles 28px? shouldn't they be 23?
15:19<frosch123>@calc sqrt(2)*16
15:19<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 22.627416998
15:21<Supercheese>Logic need not apply
15:21<frosch123>pikka should know, he claimed to not have distorted pineapple
15:24<andythenorth>maybe I could just stick to trams
15:24<andythenorth>and trucks without semi-trailers
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: no, the length of the / view is 8*sqrt(5)
15:28<frosch123>@calc 8*sqrt(5)
15:28<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 17.88854382
15:29<frosch123>that makes no sense
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sqrt(2)*8*sqrt(5)
15:29<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 25.2982212813
15:29<argoneus>\o/
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>but the – view is also weirdly distorted in the original
15:30<frosch123>measuring pineapple confirms my sqrt(2)
15:31<frosch123>i don't know how you get the sqrt(5)
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>i wasn't questioning your sqrt(2), i was questioning your 16
15:31<frosch123>the horizontal width of the train projection in \ direction is 16 pixels
15:32<frosch123>if i rotate the world to a top-down projection that does not change the size of horizontal width
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>each length step is 2 pixels across and 1 pixel up, so the length of the hypothenuse is sqrt(2^2+1^2)
15:32<frosch123>with sqrt(2) you then get the length of the actual vehicle
15:32<frosch123>that length you can then turn to the -- orientation, and rotate the world back to the normal projection
15:33<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: 16 is the horizontal extent, you are counting the diagonal distance, but who counts pixels like that?
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>anyone who desires useful proportions
15:35<frosch123>projections do not preserve distances
15:35<frosch123>you are computing a length in a projection, which makes no sense to rotate
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>but we all agree that the / view is the "master" view, which all rotations should be based on
15:36<frosch123>the vehicle is driving in a 45 degree angle, not in the projected 30 degree angle
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>isometry only makes sense if the \ / views are not distorted to begin with
15:37<frosch123>can we agree, that the projection preserves horizontal distances?
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>so you start with the assumption that the vehicle projection in / direction has the same length as the original model
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>no
15:37<frosch123>why?
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>the way the game is modeled, it only makes sense that the x/y/z dimensions are 1:1:0.5
15:38<frosch123>if i rotate the world around a horizontal axis, horizontal distance do not change in the projection
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>all other projections follow from that assumption
15:38<frosch123>why are you adding z? that has no effect at all
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>x is /, y is \
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>z is "up"
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>in 3D model coordinates
15:39<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, is right.
15:39<@peter1138>pixels across in \ view is not the same as the length of the \
15:39<frosch123>who cares about "up"? it a tile is flat
15:39<frosch123>so, i ask again: can we agree, that the projection preserves horizontal distances?
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need a projection if there's no "up"
15:40<frosch123>or is there something fishy about the term "horizontal distance"?
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>i wish i could draw a picture...
15:41<andythenorth>I am redrawing a truck
15:41<andythenorth>does that help? :P
15:41<frosch123>well, i just assume that eddi is wrong :)
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: anyway, i disagree. the projection preserves lengths in / and \ direction
15:42<@peter1138>And then there's unfixable things, like the -- and | tracks.
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>other things would be weird
15:42<frosch123>my computations result in sqrt(2), which also matches the experimental scales of pineapple
15:42<@peter1138>Because they should be wider.
15:42<frosch123>so, if the \ and / views are unaltered, then the -- view should be 22.6 pixels wide
15:43<frosch123>28 is still too much
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: again, i'm not questioning the sqrt(2)
15:43<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i just say, that the width of the -- view should be 22.6
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but sqrt(2)*l is still wrong, if you use the wrong value for l
15:43<frosch123>i use no value for |
15:44<frosch123>i use the horizontal width of \
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>l as in lower case L
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>not |
15:44<frosch123>we said, that \ and / are the reference
15:44<frosch123>what is your "l"?
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: you assumed the length of the / view is 16, which it isn't
15:45<frosch123>the real length of the vehicle in 3d space, the length of the projection?
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>the length of the / view is 8*sqrt(5)
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>both
15:45<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: no, i said the ****horizontal**** extent of the \ is 16
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>as the isometric projection preserves lengths along the x and y axis
15:45<@peter1138>Nah
15:45<@peter1138>Hmm
15:46<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: what? lengths on x and y axis are not preserved at all
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that is the very definition of isometric
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>"iso" meaning "the same", and "metric" meaning "length"
15:46<frosch123>they are scaled equally, they are not preserved
15:47<frosch123>the ttd world is created by a rotation aound the horizontal axis
15:47<frosch123>every projection preserves horizontal distances if the plane is only hoizontally rotated
15:47<andythenorth>hmm
15:48*andythenorth did technical drawing at school
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>that is a very wrong assumption
15:49<frosch123>true, but isometric projections do
15:49<andythenorth>within the rhombus that makes up an iso grid tile, what ellipse would the ends of a rotated line sweep?
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: let's take a square of 16 along the x and 16 along the y axis(and ignore z)
15:50<frosch123>16 in what space?
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>in 3D space
15:50<frosch123>the real one, or the projected one?
15:50<frosch123>ok
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>the game rotates this so that each length unit of real space gets projected onto the screen as 2 pixel across and 1 pixel up
15:51<andythenorth>ha, those were the days http://www.technologystudent.com/designpro/isomet2.htm
15:51<andythenorth>many days ago
15:52<frosch123>ah, that's where you are screwing up
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>then say the origin of the square (the bottom) is at pixel coordinates (0,0)
15:52<frosch123>you are mixing world lengths with pixel length
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>then the one corner will be at (32,16) and the other at (-32,16)
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>so the length of each edge is sqrt(32^2+16) pixels
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>missing a ^2
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>which is 16*sqrt(5)
15:54<frosch123>so you are giving the scale from world coordinates to diagonal pixels
15:54<frosch123>but that was not the question
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>the question was: what's the projection of a circle of radius 8 length units
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>assuming that the length of the x axis is fixed
15:55<frosch123>but the projected circle is not circle
15:55<frosch123>it's an ellipse
15:56<frosch123>main axes are horizontal/vertical
15:56<frosch123>and the one at 30 degree has your 16*sqrt(5)
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's not exactly 30°
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>@calc arctan(1/2)
15:57<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Error: 'arctan' is not a defined function.
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>@calc atan(1/2)
15:57<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.463647609001
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>@calc atan(1/2)*180/pi
15:57<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 26.5650511771
15:57<frosch123>doesn't matter, by your logic the vertical length of a | vehicle would also be 16*sqrt(5)
15:58<frosch123>you computed the scale of world units to pixels in \ and / axes
15:58<frosch123>and then claimed that the projection preserves a circle
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i said that
15:58<andythenorth>happy times: http://www.magikoo.com/engineering_and_tecnology/basic_technical_mechanical_drawing_notes_and_tutorial_clip_image010.jpg
15:59<andythenorth>of course, we used to freehand the ellipse :P
15:59<andythenorth>by eye
15:59<andythenorth>because nobody runs a lathe from the iso projection, just the orthographic
15:59<@Alberth>like any good draw person :)
15:59-!-sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:59<@Alberth>lots of arrows in the latter image :)
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, whatever...
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>last time i did the calculation, i thought "24 pixels is probably more than accurate"
16:01<frosch123>at least we agree that 28 is wrong :p
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it's less wrong than 32 :p
16:03<@peter1138>I'm just gonna measure it
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16:03<frosch123>peter1138: i did, pineapple uses 66/47
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16:03<frosch123>66 pixels in -- view, 47 horizontal pixels in / view
16:05<@peter1138>16 \ - 20.6
16:05<@peter1138>hm, no that's wrong :)
16:05<@peter1138>i was measuring the length,hehe
16:06<@peter1138>Yeah, frosch123 is right
16:06<@peter1138>16 pixels across in \ = 22.6 pixels across in --
16:07-!-Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:55b9:adb9:eb8d:c75f] has quit [Quit: .]
16:07<@peter1138>and | views should be half that
16:07<@peter1138>concluded.
16:09<@peter1138>unless you think it should be stretch because it's isometric?
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>now then, how about my intermediate rotations in CETS? :p
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>steps of 15° (in 3D coordinates)
16:10<@peter1138>but 16 * 4 is 64, not 47 :S
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>23*4 is not 66 either.
16:11<@peter1138>frosch123, i was measuring an isometric circle, see
16:12<frosch123>the 47 pixels i measured in pineapple were not a complete vehicle length
16:13<@peter1138>ok
16:13<frosch123>but just an easy identifyable length in the sprite
16:14<@peter1138>so 64 for \ and 90.5 for -- in 4x
16:14<@peter1138>minus spacing
16:14<@peter1138>66 is considerably less than 90
16:14<@peter1138>but then 47 is considerably less than 64
16:14*peter1138 doubts himself again
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>better than the 128 you'd get from 32px vehicles
16:15<@peter1138>yuck
16:15<NGC3982>When "Your computer took too long to connect". Can the server change the time that took to long?
16:15<@peter1138>well, 38 pixels too long vs 24 pixels too short .hmm.
16:15<@peter1138>NGC3982, yes
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: that's in the .cfg
16:16<@peter1138>ok i think i can close blender now
16:16<NGC3982>max_lag_time?
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>max_join_time or so
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>lag is during the game
16:16<NGC3982>I can join, i just can't play.
16:16<NGC3982>Aight.
16:17<NGC3982>Yes, it worked out nicely. Thank you.
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>there are 3 different times. the time it takes to download, the time it takes you to catch up with whatever happened during the download, and the time you are behind if the computer is too slow to handle everything going on
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>you can't really do anything for the latter
16:19<@peter1138>pause_on_join
16:19<@peter1138>is that even off by default still?
16:30<andythenorth>hmm
16:30<andythenorth>super compressed
16:35*andythenorth has now lost all sense of proportion :P
16:35<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6724/proportions.png
16:36<andythenorth>the 22px – view obviously isn’t 5/8 or 6/8
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm, the quote button on devzone is broken :/
16:36<andythenorth>but I can’t keep track of that being right or wrong
16:36<@planetmaker>how so, Eddi|zuHause ?
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: doesn't do anything
16:37<@planetmaker>must be you. does work for me
16:38<@planetmaker>or something you do different than me
16:38<@planetmaker>anywhere specifically?
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it shortly pops up "loading..." and then nothing happens
16:39<andythenorth>going by default bus, 28/15 = 1.8667
16:39<andythenorth>so 22/1.8667 is 11.8
16:39<andythenorth>so my / view is 1px too short
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7227#change-19787 <- i'm on this page, currently
16:39<andythenorth>but the wheels look stupid if not aligned on the grid
16:39<andythenorth>so meh
16:40<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/tiledimension.png
16:40<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, when I click on that it opens the edit mode with that specific posting quoted
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it doesn't do that for me
16:41<@planetmaker>do you use a browser which only supports ssl3? :P we disabled that
16:42<andythenorth>bah
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>pffft :p
16:42<andythenorth>does that truck look stupid or not?
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the usual "edit" button on the bottom works, the quote button not.
16:43<frosch123>@calc 22/sqrt(2)
16:43<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 15.5563491861
16:43<frosch123>@calc 11*sqrt(2)
16:43<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 15.5563491861
16:43<frosch123>andythenorth: either your / view is 4 pixels too short, or your -- view is 6 pixels too long
16:43<frosch123>(in pikka scale)
16:43<andythenorth>the / view is too short
16:43<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, edit or update button?
16:43<andythenorth>is pikka scale useful?
16:44<frosch123>in non-pikka scale the lengths are corret though :p
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: button called "bearbeiten"
16:44<frosch123>but since rv do not drive in \ and / direction very much, you can just use pikka scale
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: on the bottom
16:45<frosch123>err, i mean in | and -- direciton ...
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: until we get diagonal roads
16:46<frosch123>i guess we get pikka-style driving before diagonal roads :p
16:48<andythenorth>highly scientific preference test https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6725/proportions_2.png
16:49<andythenorth>which looks better?
16:49<@peter1138>22px is 8/8
16:50<@peter1138>Well, 22.6px
16:50<andythenorth>metric or imperial?
16:51<@peter1138>:S
16:51<frosch123>apple pixels
16:51<frosch123>not square, but roundrects
16:51<@peter1138>Basically, draw an isometric circle. Then lengths are obviousl.
16:51<@peter1138>-l
16:51<andythenorth>the RH one (longer tractor) is 1px too long
16:51<andythenorth>the LH one (shorter tractor) is 1px too short
16:52<andythenorth>same trailer in both
16:52<andythenorth>which is better? o_O
16:52<@peter1138>andythenorth, why no inbetween option?
16:53<@peter1138>RH looks better aesthetically though.
16:53<andythenorth>wheels go off the grid for in-between option
16:53<andythenorth>looks daft
16:54<andythenorth>like it’s permanently skidding
16:55<andythenorth>hmm so that is now redrawn 5 times, I think this is now correct
16:57<andythenorth>HEQS always bugged me, the / \ views are about 50% too long
16:58<andythenorth>also now I just need to redraw all of squid
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: ah. i remember now how i ended up with 24px the last time: i approximated sqrt(2) as 1,5
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17:07<andythenorth>so now just offsets :P
17:07<@peter1138>Ok, I made a CETS-like vehicle.
17:08<@peter1138>(Just an oblong :p)
17:08<andythenorth>hrm
17:08<andythenorth>offsets can be calculated at compile time
17:08<andythenorth>ho
17:08<andythenorth>that’s better
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>"Lockheed Martin says fusion power may be ready in 10 years"
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17:12<andythenorth>I’ll use it for my flying pig car
17:14<andythenorth>x-axis is the one along which you’d measure the length of the vehicle?
17:14<andythenorth>this is not an iso maths question
17:14<andythenorth>need a property name
17:15<frosch123>use hoizontal/vertical
17:15<frosch123>in ottd X refers to / direction
17:15<andythenorth>maybe I use what we use for effect offset
17:15*andythenorth looks
17:16<andythenorth>meh, nothing useful there
17:16<andythenorth>offset_from_front will do
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>x axis is along your thumb if you use the right hand
17:17<frosch123>you need a weirdly distorted hand for that
17:20*andythenorth needs bed
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: how so?
17:22<frosch123>my thumb always points somewhat upwards
17:22<frosch123>but in ottd the x axis points downwards
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>"right hand rule": x = thumb, y = index, z = middle
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>then turn it so each finger points in the direction where values increase
17:23<frosch123>yeah, that's the theory :p now turn your hand to have the same orientation as ottd :p
17:23<andythenorth>bit of a painful bend :P
17:23<andythenorth>works
17:23<andythenorth>ish
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, openttd has quite an unfortunate orientation on that matter
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>a more common one would be if both the x and the y axis were increasing in the opposite direction
17:26<@peter1138>Wrong.
17:27<@peter1138>Or right. I'm just not that flexible.
17:28<andythenorth>bed
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17:42<frosch123>night
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---Logclosed Thu Oct 16 00:00:54 2014