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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-10-20

---Logopened Mon Oct 20 00:00:00 2014
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01:30<supermop>opening tons of dwgs in rhino and just saving them again to remove the autocad student version watermark...
01:30<supermop>i really need to go ahead and cough up for a current regular autocad
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01:56<V453000>xd you insane?
01:56<V453000>draftsight works moderately well
01:56<V453000>we use it at work as a replacement of autocad
01:59<supermop>i usually font have too much need for acad at home
01:59<supermop>but a 2011 student version is feeling way behind the times
02:00<supermop>particularly as i haven't been able to consider myself a student by any stretch of the word since 2007
02:00<V453000>what exactly do you need to do? just open dwgs and prepare them for import into 3D?
02:00<supermop>no this is all 2d work
02:01<V453000>aha I thought you import building projects XD
02:01<supermop>and i do linework much faster in acad than rhino
02:01<V453000>that is understandable I guess
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02:02<supermop>but as i need to create dwgs that others can open without propagating the student version watermark, i open and save it in rhino to strip out that particular metadata
02:03<supermop>my current freelance work is more urban planning focused so i am only concerned with the footprint of the house
02:03<supermop>run into the same issue with revit though
02:03<V453000>I see
02:03<V453000>well, autodesk is great but it is a bit expensive :d
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02:04<V453000>I wouldnt use 3ds max if I didnt have it at work either
02:04<supermop>i dont make nearly enough per year to write off an autocad purchase as business expense
02:05<supermop>i love rhino as in addition to great nurbs modelling and parametrics with grasshopper - their software is not too expensive
02:05<supermop>and if you are a student you can buy it cheap, and use forever
02:05<supermop>without it stamping your files
02:06<supermop>also when buying the student version you just mail a check to the guy who wrote/founded rhino
02:06<supermop>at least that was the case when i bought my copy
02:08<V453000>well our company has like 200 autocad licenses already so I guess 3 licenses of 3ds max was just a bit of extra from the autodesk resellers
02:09<V453000>I tried cinema4D and Blender, liked cinema a lot but it was just so different :D
02:09<V453000>not even talking about blender, that is totally another world
02:14<supermop>i never messed around with blender - i guess i should
02:14<supermop>but id need to reformat my resume then
02:15<supermop>i stupidly went with this super minimal design back in university
02:15<supermop>and have never bothered to redo it
02:15<supermop>so as i work more jobs and learn more i have to cram it into the same small space on the page
02:16<supermop>meanwhile there is like a 2.5" margin of whitespace on the left....
02:17<supermop>there is probably a lesson in there as to why architects earn less than engineers...
02:18<V453000>blender is great but I dont know how many 3rd party plugins are there for it yet
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02:20<V453000>and the controlling is so different that I didnt really have the energy to just randomly dig into it
02:21<supermop>yeah same
02:21<supermop>opened it one time, got confused
02:21<supermop>not worth learning unless i needed to
02:22<supermop>really cant be bothered to do any rigging for openttd though
02:22<supermop>id make models and hand them off to be textured, lighted, and rendered
02:23<supermop>not sure how compatible formats are though
02:23<supermop>but if someone had a big blender project and wanted modelling help
02:23<V453000>well it depends what you want to do obviously :)
02:23<supermop>i'd be cool with supplying 3dm files
02:23<V453000>I personally dont have the goal n1 as "create the newGRF"
02:23<V453000>my goal n1 is to learn stuff and enjoy doing it
02:24<V453000>creating the newgrf gives the enjoy doing it
02:24<V453000>since I enjoy doing characters etc, rigging robots and stuff is just one of the important things
02:24<V453000>especially if you intend to create buildings, there isnt much to rig on them anyway
02:25<V453000>I dont really know rhino but I believe exporting things through some .obj might somewhat work
02:25<supermop>i want to try making some stl files for shapeways too
02:26<supermop>i need to make a bracket for my hario hand grinder
02:26<supermop>stereolithography format seems to me what most 3d printers take
02:28<supermop>that or make enough money freelancing to buy a more serious grinder
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02:30<V453000>mhm :)
02:31<V453000>btw peter1138 the anti-alpha nazi: I found a way to make my sprites on ground 100% precise :P
02:31<V453000>on all edges not just the front one
02:33<@peter1138>It actually doesn't matter for your sprites because they're not ground sprites :p
02:33<@peter1138>But if they were it would.
02:33<supermop>how'd you do it?
02:34<V453000>yeah I know
02:34<V453000>supermop, yet another rendering in masks and stages
02:35<V453000>then putting it back together in postproduction
02:35<V453000>it doesnt probably matter much peter but I think it is still better to have it match
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02:38<V453000>and it could also output real groundsprites just as a side effect :P
02:39<V453000>not that making those is a lot of work regardless
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02:48<V453000>yo ifex
02:51<@Rubidium>yassou planetmaker
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03:08<@peter1138>red is where pixels aren't fully drawn
03:08<V453000>I know right :)
03:08<@peter1138>Except the lighthouse
03:08<@peter1138>This is a special version, it uses 8bpp colour 240.
03:08<@peter1138>FLASHING HELL
03:09<V453000>wont happen with my landscape :)
03:09<@planetmaker>hm :)
03:10<@planetmaker>got that patch for me, peter1138 ? :D
03:10<@planetmaker>might come in handy
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03:20<@peter1138>Works by filling the drawpixelinfo area with colour 240, and then no drawing *any* pixels with alpha.
03:20<@peter1138>So don't use an antialiased font :p
03:21<@peter1138>Anything with AA edges looks weird, but yeah, it highlights the bad edges.
03:21<@peter1138>And indeed the holes in some buildings.
03:23<@peter1138>32bpp-anim only as well, of course.
03:23<@peter1138>If you turn animation off I guess it will draw everything normally, heh.
03:24<@planetmaker>boring without animation :)
03:24<@peter1138>Ahh you still get the red, though now at clear.
03:26<@peter1138>now at -> not as
03:27<@peter1138>Bah, zBase airports don't animate :(
03:31<supermop>pizza time
03:31<@planetmaker>water doesn't either
03:32<V453000>yeti will get some wtf alpha on the top everywher :P
03:33<@peter1138>they're not ground sprites
03:35<V453000>ah right
03:35<V453000>you only check for the problem alpha
03:36<@peter1138>Something like that ;p
03:36<@peter1138>Basically it fills in an area to be drawn with colour 240.
03:36<@peter1138>Then draws the sprites on top, skipping anything with alpha != 255
03:37<@peter1138>So the colour 240 "shows through" the gaps in the ground sprites.
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05:22<@peter1138>"I've tried 2048x1024 but its still to small for me."
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05:50<@peter1138>Gotta love the town name generator.
05:51<@peter1138>Could do with an option for less towns on large maps though, I think.
05:54<@peter1138>Oh, there's an exact number, derr
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06:55<@peter1138>Hmm, how do I get the (approx) centre tile of the main viewport?
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>the viewport is aligned to the top left corner
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>so to get the center you need that reference point and the size of the viewport (plus zoom level)
06:59<@planetmaker>I'm actually pretty sure we have already a function which converts screen coordinates to tile coordinates
07:00<@planetmaker>which also takes into account the height of the tile(s)
07:01<b_jonas>yeah, you surely have such a function because I can control the game with the mouse
07:05<@peter1138>Yeah I was hoping there was some function that does it all already for something else :p
07:06<@peter1138>I can't even remember how to get the main viewport now :p
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>well, the least programmatical solution would be to click in the center of the screen with the ?-tool :p
07:13<b_jonas>that might not be the main viewport
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>but it may be an entry point into looking where the desired function is
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08:09<andythenorth>lo bob
08:10<andythenorth>should fix those zeps
08:10<andythenorth>been making trucks
08:10<andythenorth>‘crane truck’ or ‘low loader truck’ or something else?
08:10<Pikka>would it be inappropriate to point out to "baldy's boss" that he is a complete towering intellect?
08:11<Pikka>maybe just "low loader"?
08:11<andythenorth>Pikka: I take no opinion on forums :P
08:11<andythenorth>it’s a new thing I’m trying
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08:12<Pikka>it can work
08:12<Pikka>my internet experience has become immesurably better since I adblocked the comments section on youtube. :P
08:12<Pikka>immeasurably, too
08:12<andythenorth>you are not alone in that
08:13<andythenorth>I considered it
08:13<andythenorth>but I enjoy them too much
08:13<andythenorth>BBC News comments otoh, always a mistake to read
08:13*andythenorth just learnt some things about FIRS
08:13<andythenorth>how interesting
08:15<@peter1138>Sounds like a BAD FEATURE.
08:16<andythenorth>rm FIRS
08:17<andythenorth>why do people assume ottd devs troll?
08:17<andythenorth>afaict, the only people who troll are me and MB
08:17<@peter1138>Who assumes we troll?
08:17<andythenorth>people in forums
08:17<andythenorth>and stuff
08:17<@peter1138>But *who*?
08:18<Pikka>that petern guy trolls
08:18<Pikka>whoever he is
08:19<@peter1138>Yeah's a cunt
08:19<@peter1138>Also that guy's map looks ridiculous.
08:19<Pikka>you should tell him so
08:19<Pikka>but not in a trolly way.
08:20<Pikka>v doesn't troll, he yetis.
08:20<andythenorth>v is just abusive
08:20<Pikka>it's like trolling but hairier.
08:20<andythenorth>trolling even
08:35<andythenorth>is this a low-loader or a crane?
08:35<@planetmaker>man... if this wasn't so bloody expensive:
08:35<@planetmaker>swiss-made. swiss-priced :D
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13:39<Wolf01>hi hi
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14:15<V453000>andythenorth: having a diesel AND electric engine is quite a GOOD FEATURE
14:16<V453000>no pathfinding borkening when you forget to electrify etc
14:16<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE
14:16<V453000>I likez it
14:16<andythenorth>RL has only 1000hp on the diesel
14:16<V453000>also iron hores is missing slow powerful trains :(
14:16<andythenorth>slow is boring
14:16<V453000>omfg it exists in RL
14:16<andythenorth>also it’s UK
14:16<V453000>slow is grate
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14:20<@peter1138> (278.18 KiB) Not downloaded yet
14:20<@peter1138>that's kinda large :S
14:23<@peter1138>diesel / electric hybrids?
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14:43<andythenorth>V453000: slow would need low wagon speeds
14:43<V453000>no slow just needs a powerful train which is slow
14:43<V453000>10 000 hp, 120 kmh
14:43<andythenorth>why would you use it?
14:43<andythenorth>just use the faster one
14:43<V453000>long trains, short curves, extreme throughput
14:44<V453000>speed isnt nearly everything :P
14:45<andythenorth>well in another roster
14:45<andythenorth>we can have slow things
14:47<V453000>it just fits the idea of fast/medium/strong
14:47<V453000>atm screamer vs. double juice is solid competition
14:47<V453000>having something even slower but even faster would be nice addition
14:47<V453000>*even stronger (:
14:48<andythenorth>I think it would make Double Juice redundant
14:48<andythenorth>idea with IH is that there’s always one obvious choice… :)
14:49<V453000>one obvious choice is meh
14:49<V453000>2-3 at least is fun :P
14:49<V453000>double juice would stay as it is :)
14:49<andythenorth>I don’t find choosing fun
14:49<andythenorth>building routes is fun
14:49<andythenorth>winning GS is fun
14:49<V453000>k :D
14:50<andythenorth>hmm there’s not always one obvious choice though
14:50<andythenorth>Raven vs. High Flyer
14:51<andythenorth>Electra vs. Northcock
14:51<@peter1138>you want powerful, fast or cheap.
14:51<@peter1138>cheap to run that is.
14:52<andythenorth>cheap is narrow gauge
14:52<andythenorth>what’s cheap for? :)
14:54<@peter1138>for when there is not enough cargo to warrant fast or powerful
14:57<andythenorth>Alberth: having fun with mhl? :)
14:57<@Alberth>yeah, 12 high mountains :)
14:57<@peter1138>freight trains 50
14:58<andythenorth>fwiw, I thought we’d get 32 levels
14:58<andythenorth>255 is… excess :D
14:58<@Alberth>11 is clearly not enough :p
14:58<@peter1138>it saves having a future of people pestering for more height levels and running non-vanilla servers...
14:59<@peter1138>Which is, I assume, the only reason we have 4096x4096 maps now.
14:59<andythenorth>squeaky wheel gets the grease
14:59<@peter1138>Though probably 8192 or 16384 will be "needed" soon.
14:59<@Alberth>you think that will stop people wanting 8192?
15:00<@peter1138>Ah well, at least they can continue complaining that a 20 year old game is using far too much CPU for some reason...
15:00<andythenorth>we should open source it
15:00<andythenorth>and let users make their own mods
15:01<@peter1138>Nah, everything should be possible via NewGRFs.
15:01<andythenorth>only if we make them xml
15:02<andythenorth>how do I do an if statement in xml?
15:02<@peter1138>ini file
15:02<@peter1138>Actually it would be json now, that's the latest thing I hear...
15:02*andythenorth considers it
15:06<frosch123>andythenorth: more than 32 levels makes somewhat sense if there is a gradient across the whole map
15:07<frosch123>i.e. no hills of size > 32, but north/south end difference of > 32
15:07<frosch123>but i guess the map gen cannot handle that :p
15:07<@peter1138>Map gen needs love.
15:07<frosch123>we should extent the water/land edge setting to include some height levels
15:08<@peter1138>I should try porting that tectonic simulator.
15:08<@Alberth>250 seems sufficient, I think
15:08<@planetmaker>really, frosch123 ?
15:08<frosch123>planetmaker: if in doubt, no :p
15:08<frosch123>but not sure what exactly you are refering to :)
15:09<@planetmaker>we rather need a pencil or brush which allows to lower or rise terrain in SE
15:09<@planetmaker>I referred to the need to set level on map borders
15:09<frosch123>se? who uses se?
15:09<frosch123>a mapgen is imho generally better than any se
15:10<frosch123>planetmaker: why not? "sea"/"plains"/"mountains" at border
15:10<@planetmaker>well, it's a vicious circle, too. Using SE is tedious as it's not loved. And vice versa :)
15:11<andythenorth>map gen needs love
15:11<frosch123>planetmaker: when playing widelands, not having a nice mapgen is the most tedious thing
15:11<@planetmaker>frosch123, 'free style' certainly is the setting you refer to as 'mountains'.
15:12<frosch123>there is something of a half mapgen within the se, but it needs a lot of hand crafting afterwards
15:12<@planetmaker>But I also agree: I usually only use random map and I'm happy latest after a few tries
15:12<frosch123>planetmaker: "free style" is too free :p i want to choose between level 0 (sea), 1 - 50, 50-100, 100-150
15:13<frosch123>so i can request a gradient across the whole map
15:13<frosch123>instead of homogenous mountains with same height
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15:13<frosch123>something like variety distribution, just different :p
15:17<andythenorth>between variety distribution and the type
15:17<andythenorth>I’m baffled
15:18<andythenorth>can we replace both with some better presets?
15:18<andythenorth>baked in heightmaps :P
15:21<@peter1138>Just make it flat, that seems most popular on MP :(
15:22<@peter1138>I want flat bits, I want smooth bits, I want rough bits that are high up and don't make millions of pointless lakes.
15:23<andythenorth>I want rivers making valleys :P
15:24<andythenorth>and a rabbit in a hat
15:24<andythenorth>and an 8 track
15:24<andythenorth>and a girl, I would call her
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15:27<@Belugas>and i beer, i would called right away
15:27<andythenorth>lo Belugas :)
15:27<@Rubidium>Freudian slip of the tongue?
15:28<@Rubidium>actually... Belugas, I've been talking about you a bit today about how Brittish is apparantly hard for Northern-Americans
15:28<@Belugas>and an andy, I would call "waving Hello Andy" ;)
15:28<@Belugas>hello sir Rubidium :)
15:28<@Belugas>yes yes yes it is hard sometimes :)
15:29<@Belugas>as hard it can be for let say glx and I to understand each other ;)
15:29<@Belugas>i don't know, it might be related to the intonations, the speed...
15:30<@Belugas>I know I cannot listen to a british tv show if it's not AT LEAST with subtitles
15:30<+glx>the words too ;)
15:30<andythenorth>I dunno
15:30<@Belugas>that too yes hahaha
15:30<andythenorth>always sense we are talking
15:32<@Belugas>heu.... what??
15:33<liq3>V453000: BDMT has no purpose atm in YETI
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15:33<@Rubidium>don't forget idioms and such
15:33<V453000>how come liq3
15:33<@Rubidium>"living at her majesty's pleasure"
15:34<liq3>no reason to use it over food. Can just grow town so large you never cap out.
15:34<V453000>but can easily get double the amount
15:34<V453000>bdmt doubles the cap
15:34<andythenorth>what’s that thing pikka says?
15:34<andythenorth>the 100% fallacy in sim games
15:34<V453000>bdmt simply doubles the effectiveness of food
15:35<liq3>the cap doesn't matter tho. :P
15:35<liq3>Grow town to say, 200k pop.
15:35<V453000>for food you get 20%, for food AND BDMT you get more than 40%
15:35<andythenorth>less optimising, more playing
15:35<V453000>but BDMT is only 20% of food
15:35<V453000>which is quite efficient I would say
15:36<V453000>not to mention that with reasonably slow town growth it obviously is more important
15:36*andythenorth ponders
15:37<liq3>V453000: your help documents don't clearly explain how BDMT and food work.
15:38<V453000>Providing food will give you a production bonus. To motivate YETI dudes to work for you, you need to provide 1 crate of food for every 5 inhabitants in the town. You will get up to 20% of the population working for you every month with enough food. Providing both food and building materials will give you an even bigger boost. Provide food as described above and 1 unit of building materials for every 5 houses to get an additional 20% of the
15:38<V453000>what is unclear
15:38<liq3>oh nevermind.
15:38<andythenorth>is it perverse?
15:39<andythenorth>“Less optimising, more playing”, but I always use GS...
15:39<liq3>V453000: so if I understand this right, BDMT is far more efficient to get YETIs than food?
15:40<V453000>yes but BDMT wont even be processed if you dont supply food
15:40<liq3>I misunderstood then. I take back everything I said. :D sorry.
15:40<V453000>:D :)
15:40<V453000>glad you understand now :P
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15:40<liq3>now to get BDMT set up in my game...
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15:41<liq3>Got a worker yard that was recieving 2,500 food, but no bdmt. thought it was pointless.
15:42<liq3>Network is so congested atm. Overflows don't work properly. :(
15:42<andythenorth>complicated industry sets :(
15:43<andythenorth>V453000: RV set?
15:43<liq3>Gotta stop new trains joining the network if there's already trains around....
15:44<liq3>hrm. I could do this with logic gates and a priority.
15:44<@peter1138>Heh, remember all that talk about a lego base set? :p
15:44<@peter1138>TrueBrain? :P
15:44<andythenorth>I even saw renders
15:44<andythenorth>would be crappy though
15:44<andythenorth>if we wanted Lego, we should at least make things editable in game
15:45<andythenorth>build your own train etc
15:45<frosch123>please stick to the vocabulary in this channel
15:45<andythenorth>cubicles are where Dilbert works
15:45<andythenorth>is there an approved vocabulary?
15:45<andythenorth>can I download it?
15:46<andythenorth>maybe in xml?
15:46<frosch123>yes, "undo knobs" and "cubicels"
15:46<@planetmaker>wasn't it voxels?
15:46<@planetmaker>probably both was used interchangeably :P
15:48<andythenorth>where is cat?
15:49<@peter1138>"Easily Craft Your Own World In 3D"
15:49<@peter1138>So not geared as a tool for other things now, just harnessing the lure of Minecraft creative mode...
15:51<andythenorth>oh they made blocky roads with it
15:51<andythenorth>blocky roads is the reason I mention voxels at all seriously
15:52<andythenorth>most of the other stuff looks like shit to me
15:53<andythenorth>then again, blocky roads looks like TTD palette :P
15:53<andythenorth>so bias
15:53<andythenorth>you build your own cars too
15:54<andythenorth>OTTD could look like this? o_O
15:55<andythenorth>tropic, also notice signs
15:56<frosch123>is there a movie, where a tablet bites the finger when tapped?
15:56<frosch123>or just swalllows the whole hand?
15:56<Wolf01>try japanese ones
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16:08*andythenorth breaks all the things
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16:23<iamtakingiteasy>hello, is it possible to reduce number (density?) of trees around cities on tropical maps?
16:24<iamtakingiteasy>i see it is possible to turn them off completly, but thats not quite what i want
16:24<iamtakingiteasy>is there any control over tree population?
16:26<@planetmaker>you could found a wood chopper industry
16:26<@planetmaker>they cut trees quite effectively
16:26<iamtakingiteasy>right after map genration?
16:27<@peter1138>Use original tree algorithm.
16:27<@peter1138>There'll be less trees.
16:27<iamtakingiteasy>i have tried setting tree_placer = 1, not much change, they're still too dense
16:28<iamtakingiteasy>and zero is just turns them off completly
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16:35<@peter1138> < such excitement
16:37<andythenorth>is not icy near rivers? o_O
16:38<andythenorth>is straight railroads?
16:38*andythenorth plays ‘guess the excitement'
16:39<@peter1138>I guess the rivers are at slightly lower height.
16:39<andythenorth>hmm one view fixed
16:39<andythenorth>24 to go
16:39*andythenorth is upgrading a user interface :P
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17:00<andythenorth>was it?
17:01<andythenorth>Supercheese: you could have just said BAD FEATURE :P
17:01<andythenorth>no need to show off
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19:09<argoneus>good night train friends
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---Logclosed Tue Oct 21 00:00:01 2014