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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-10-21

---Logopened Tue Oct 21 00:00:01 2014
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01:45<supermop>it is surprisingly hard to get a good photo of pavement
01:48<V453000>point. :)
01:48<V453000>esp when you want to create a seamless texture from it
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01:50<supermop>also could not get high enough anywhere downtown without having weird glare or reflections on the stone
01:52<V453000>yeah I honestly dont know how people do it but I think by flying drones
01:55<supermop>all i'd need is some kind of gantry or scaffold
01:55<supermop>and patience for right lighting/time of day
01:55<supermop>and permission from the city to perform this at various places around the city
01:56<supermop>also the right lens to get a flat image
02:00<Pikka>surely the internet is full of freely-usable concrete pavement textures? :P
02:00<Pikka>or non-concrete, for that matter
02:06<supermop>honed victorian bluestone not so much
02:10<V453000>cant be so picky
02:11<supermop>pssh whats the point of a plain concrete sidewalk
02:13<V453000>well perhaps get a texture from the web and photoshop it into something more interesting
02:13<V453000>is what I would consider
02:14<supermop>other option is skewing the photos i took obliquely into something useful
02:16<V453000>well that is standard workflow
02:16<V453000>take photo - undistort - skew/do whatever to make it work
02:16<V453000>I didnt do much of my own textures but it always was a lot of effort to get them right from the photo
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02:38<Pikka>my textures are all hand-drawn because I'm a purist like that :P
02:38-!-Flygon__ is now known as Flygon
02:39<Flygon>I'm too lazy to even draw textures :U
02:39<Flygon>All my stuff looks flat :U
02:44<V453000>Pikka the hard working minion
02:46<Pikka>I'm my own minion, though
02:46<Pikka>an autominion, if you will.
02:54<V453000>how dare you not be slave of The Community (tm)
03:00<Pikka>but which Community (tm)?
03:00<Pikka>it's dying, haven't you heard?
03:06<V453000>well shit
03:17<V453000>Pikka what are your camera coordinates?
03:17<V453000>for trains
03:17<Pikka>why, what did you do?
03:18<Pikka>same as for anything, isn't it?
03:18<V453000>am trying to setup cameras and render resolution
03:18<V453000>well for my industries I use one camera which sees all of the 16 tiles :)
03:18<V453000>I Could just downsize it from there I suppose
03:19<Pikka>probably best. since it's an orthoganal camera it can zoom in and out at will, so the position doesn't really make any difference
03:19<Pikka>orthographic too
03:19<V453000>sure but distance from object vs. rendering resolution matters
03:20<Pikka>only proportionally :P
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03:20<V453000>me is thinking
03:20<Pikka>always dangerous
03:21<V453000>moving the camera forward or backward (zooming it) changes things
03:21<V453000>things get larger or smaller
03:21<Pikka>fancy that
03:21<Pikka>zooming makes things larger or smaller!
03:21<Eddi|zuHause>that's kinda the point of zooming?
03:21<V453000>yes, that is
03:21<V453000>which means resolution matters more than just proportionally
03:21<V453000>in relation to camera distance
03:22<V453000>I can render in 256px width but I still need correct "zoom"
03:22<V453000>am asking if you have any tested vehicle value for such
03:22<Pikka>well, as you know, I have fun values, but
03:22<V453000>thats fine
03:22<Pikka>with my 560m tile :P
03:23<Eddi|zuHause>if you reduce the size from 4x4 to 1x1, you need to zoom in 4x to get the same resolution
03:23<Pikka>camera at 200/-200/163m
03:23<Pikka>82 degree FOV
03:23<Pikka>rendering at 320x320
03:24<Pikka>it's only a couple hundred m from the origin with a 560m tile length, so it's zoomed right out :P
03:24<V453000>that is clear
03:24<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: alternatively, you render 4x4 anyway, and just cut off the excessive stuff
03:24<V453000>yeah Eddi I thought about that too
03:24<V453000>might actually do that
03:24<Eddi|zuHause>you already have a cutting routine
03:25<V453000>yeah that might be best
03:25<@peter1138>Let's use non-orthogonal render, that'll work out well...
03:25<V453000>mainly cause I can get multiple sprites rendered in one go
03:25<Pikka>well, the way I ended up with an 82 degree fov was to just put the camera wherever
03:25<Pikka>and then just tweak the fov until the sprites came out the right size.
03:25<V453000>-whereever- ? :D
03:25<V453000>XD oh
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03:25<Pikka>I mean, at an arbitrary distance from the origin :P
03:26<@peter1138>It's only the camera angle that matters...
03:26<V453000>well idk I went from having FOV 45deg, have the camera at 30deg looking down, and then zoom in/out to get it rights
03:26<Pikka>an arbitrary distance but the correct angle :P
03:26<V453000>well I will consider how valid rendering 4x4 is XD
03:26<V453000>probably very actually
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03:29<@peter1138>Did it turn out the Pikka's 10cc engines are the right length in - view?
03:30<@peter1138>With that silly 21-24-28-32 argument...
03:30<V453000>maybe "right" but definitely not "nice" :(
03:30<Pikka>well, my engines are rendered so by definition they're the right length :P
03:32<Pikka>and they are...90 px coupler-face to coupler-face? so 22.5. :D
03:33<@peter1138>Sounds about right. Someone had a different measurement for them than 90px.
03:33<@peter1138>Must've been measuring something else :S
03:33<V453000>it doesnt matter how right it is, it still looks wrong :P
03:33<Pikka>they might not have been measuring from the same place, I know how the couplers are "supposed" to overlap.
03:33<Pikka>why does it look wrong?
03:34<Pikka>the stretched views look ridiculous to me now I'm used to pineapples ;)
03:34<V453000>gaps between stuff are very wtf
03:34<Pikka>the gaps are a problem
03:34<Pikka>but probably not unfixable if someone took the time
03:34<Pikka>that one patch was almost there?
03:34<V453000>I doubt it is valid if it breaks existing newgrfs
03:34<Pikka>it'd have to be optional
03:35<V453000>that would create 2 concurrent standards which would be even bigger mess
03:35<Eddi|zuHause>it can't be optional
03:35<Eddi|zuHause>or... it'd be extremely messy
03:35<@peter1138>That patch almost worked.
03:35<@peter1138>But didn't always.
03:36<Pikka>V453000, in that case, let's break existing newgrfs :D
03:36<@peter1138>Problem is, it breaks the original GRFs as well.
03:36<V453000>I think if you wanted to break existing content, it would be a lot more valid to already create a lot more of OpenTTD 2.0 than that :P
03:36<Pikka>original grfs have gaps between vehicles
03:36<Pikka>not as big, they're slightly stretched
03:36<@peter1138>They're 28px long.
03:36<Pikka>but it's not "broken" anyway
03:37<Pikka>sprites overlapping isn't "broken", just ugly.
03:37<@peter1138>Which is 5.5 pixels longer than 22.5.
03:37<Pikka>all the grfs will still work properly.
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03:37<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i'm pretty sure CETS will be "broken"
03:38<V453000>you still believe CETS will ever get graphics? :d
03:38<@peter1138>I have a feeling we really need to update the vehicle position resolution to make it work well.
03:38<Pikka>CETS will become easier to make because the vehicles won't have to stretch between views :P
03:39<@peter1138>We should add sub-angles too
03:39<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: possibly. but existing CETS will still break
03:39<@peter1138>Base it on virtual axle positions.
03:39<@peter1138>And then instead of 8 angles, you could have... many.
03:40<Pikka>but nobody uses existing CETS, I say, based on no evidence whatsoever.
03:40<Pikka>wrong, peter1138
03:40<@peter1138>Just because 10cc isn't big enough already.
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>only one solution to that: use 3D models :p
03:40<@peter1138>Let's make engines as models, and let ottd render them...
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03:56<V453000>it isnt as bad idea as it sounds peter :P
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05:09<argoneus>good morning train friends
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>what if there are train haters?
05:10<argoneus>are you trying to say
05:10<argoneus>the set of people who dislike trains is not empty?
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>no, i was asking.
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05:12<argoneus>I dunno
05:12*argoneus shrugs
05:19<@peter1138>I LIKE TRAINS
05:21<V453000>I does not
05:21<V453000>hm I guess max train height of 2.5m isnt enough if one yeti is 3m
05:21<V453000>bad template :(
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05:24<Eddi|zuHause>usual train cars are 4m high and 3m wide
05:26<V453000>which doesnt apply much to 5m long train if tile is 10m :P
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05:28<Eddi|zuHause>my tiles are 32m long
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05:31<V453000>so like /8 high
05:31<V453000>wat :D
05:31<V453000>will have to test shit :D
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05:35<Eddi|zuHause>well. originally i wanted to go with 24m, which would probably fit TT-scale a bit better, but then vehicles would get more than 1 tile long
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>with 32m the vehicles get more "fine-scale"-ish
05:38<@peter1138>Let's support longer than 8/8 vehicles!
05:38<@peter1138>(By making them separate parts that split on bends)
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05:47<argoneus>wouldn't it be possible to implement metro though
05:47<argoneus>like, make railroad tracks that have no collision
05:47<argoneus>and make them super expensive
05:47<argoneus>(to discourage long distances)
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>what would that solve?
05:48<argoneus>you could have realistic metro around cities
05:48<argoneus>perhaps a special transparency mode
05:48<argoneus>which would simulate underground
05:48*argoneus shrugs
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>and why would collisions be the key point?
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>the key point of metro is that you don't have to destroy a lot of houses...
05:50<argoneus>no collision so you could build through houses
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>that's not what a collision is
05:50<argoneus>what is a collision then?
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>and no, that is not possible.
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>a "collision" is: "two vehicles cannot be at the same place"
05:51<argoneus>two entities cannot be at the same place
05:51<argoneus>railroad + building
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>but in this game, railroads and buildings are not "entities" in that sense
05:52<argoneus>well I don't know
05:53<argoneus>but it seems logical to me that a railroad would collide with a house
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>well, not in the sense that you can just switch it off...
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>(which would be possible for trains, road vehicles, etc.)
05:54<argoneus>I thought every static object had a common parent
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>(because those are "entities"
05:54<argoneus>railroads, houses, industries etc
05:54<argoneus>that's how I would implement it anyway, but then again my programming skills a shit :<
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>that's how you would implement it, but that's not how it's implemented
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>the way it is implemented is much faster and space efficient, but less flexible
05:56<argoneus>can you give a tldr on how it's implemented?
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>it's called a "map array". each tile is an array entry of fixed size
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>so you can fit a house on a tile, or a railway track, but not both, because that would require more space
05:58<argoneus>but isn't it the same
05:58<argoneus>if you had an array of Object*
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>because then you had an array of pointers, but the Objects themselves are all over the place
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>which causes fragmented memory and cache misses and stuff
05:59<argoneus>I never really dwelved into optimizing (is that the correct spelling?)
05:59<@peter1138>Oh gods no.
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>also, creating and destroying objects takes a lot of time
06:00<@peter1138>There is a reason that OpenTTD doesn't suck all your system's RAM. It's because we care, unlike a lot of modern games....
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>afaik, simutrans is implemented this way, and it's horrible
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06:01<Eddi|zuHause>you couldn't have 4096x4096 maps with that
06:01<argoneus>so instead of having flexible polymorphism
06:01<@peter1138>I read somewhere that Simutrans uses a hundred bytes or so for each tile. May not have been accurate.
06:01<argoneus>you just make everything fixed
06:01<argoneus>which makes it faster and more predictable?
06:01<argoneus>like, where your memory is etc
06:01<@peter1138>Only the map array is fixed size like that.
06:02<@peter1138>Other things are regular objects, also we use custom memory pools to arrange that as well.
06:03<argoneus>oh, no idea what those are
06:04<argoneus>is that like
06:04<argoneus>instead of letting the RAM put things wherever it wants, you define your own huge "RAM" and put things there manually?
06:04<argoneus>the system***
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>like "all vehicles go in this general area"
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>which, again, helps with caching when you loop over all vehicles
06:05<@peter1138>And means you don't need to waste time with reference tracking./
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07:40<Eddi|zuHause> <- this looks weird...
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08:00<@peter1138>Heh, nice.
08:00<@peter1138>Seems you broke the tunnel...
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08:13<fjb>Multi level crossings in train fewer are difficult.
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>and directly next to a station it's impossible
08:17<V453000>bad featurz
08:18<b_jonas>heh, "train fewer"
08:20<Pikka>drain fever, innit
08:21<V453000>me is counting if 256 variations of a wagon is enough
08:21<V453000>8 loading stages, gives max of 32 cargoes
08:21<V453000>should be about right
08:21<Pikka>8 loading stages?
08:22<V453000>sure thingz
08:24<Pikka>very slow loading rate?
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08:24<Pikka>more than 3 is a waste imo.
08:24<V453000>BUT GRAFIX
08:24<V453000>yeah 3 is just fine
08:25<Pikka>why are you limited to 256 variations, anyway? :P
08:25<V453000>but having amount of loading ticks == amount of loading sprites is very nice
08:25<V453000>well am not limited, just inconvenient
08:25<Pikka>in nml?
08:25<V453000>I am creating infrastructure to render the 256 variations at once
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>you can have wagons in more than one file...
08:25<V453000>and then cut them in postproduction from it
08:26<V453000>it isnt about files Eddi, it is about not having to batch cameras in max
08:26<V453000>one camera looking at 256 objects, 8 frames, 8 rotations
08:28<b_jonas>but the camera is always the same, it's the train that rotates
08:30<V453000>that doesnt make sense with lighting
08:30<V453000>actually it should, too
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08:30<b_jonas>um, are we talking about openttd or not? in openttd, the camera is fixed.
08:31<V453000>hm valid point :D
08:32<V453000>yeah the model should rotate
08:32<V453000>OR light has to rotate with it but hm
08:32<V453000>actually having camera and light rotate is probably better
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08:33<Pikka>my models rotate
08:34<Pikka>or, the helper they're attached to rotates.
08:34<V453000>yeah that I understand
08:34<V453000>still you have to attach all of them to helpers
08:34<V453000>not like that is a big issue
08:34<V453000>but easier to have rotate a camera and sun
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>but doesn't that flip the positions all over the place?
08:35<b_jonas>why? is the full loaded carriage, like, too heavy, much heavier than the camera and the sun?
08:35<Pikka>it's pretty much six of one and half a dozen of the other.
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08:36<V453000>Eddi, rotating camera or the model is identical in orthographic
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>but half a dozen is much more than six
08:36<V453000>the only difference is light has to rotate with it
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: maybe i'm imagining it wrong: you have 256 items lined up in some way, and render them from 8 directions. that means, the relative position of the 256 from each other changes
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>like first A is right of B, then A is on top of B, etc.
08:38<V453000>well if you look from a different direction, sure it changes, the same way they would change as if you rotated the model
08:38<V453000>the whole model that is
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08:38<Eddi|zuHause>not if you rotate each of the 256 objects
08:38<V453000>ah right you thought each rotating locally
08:39<V453000>that point is valid but it is just linking in postproduction
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, i imagine scripting rotation of 256 objects easier than figuring out 8x256 offsets
08:39<V453000>cutting is the same
08:40<V453000>you dont even need to script it you just create objects which are its parent and which rotate
08:40<V453000>hm :)
08:41<V453000>also considering some small sub-pixel nuances in case the scale isnt 100% precise, which it probably isnt
08:41<V453000>each train rotating locally is better
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08:57<@peter1138>Crap, my second PC has stopped booting :S
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>that constantly happens to me
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>the less often you boot, the more likely it doesn't work :p
08:58<@peter1138>It was alright this morning, although the CD drive had stopped responding...
08:59<fjb>Then disconnect the CD drive.
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, could be stuck in the detection stage
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>happened to me when the data cable was connected to a disk, but the power cable was not
09:01<Jinassi>Try hard reset tool, one time use only. Proven to detect and enhance hardware issues.
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>"enhance issues", as in afterwards they are bigger issues? :p
09:03<@peter1138>Nah, it's not POSTing at all.
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>try removing components until it beeps
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>disconnect the pc speaker last :p
09:05<@Rubidium>and disconnect the PSU first? ;)
09:05<Jinassi>no magic smoke smell?
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: definitely yes. when you have another PSU to try :p
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>PSUs are one of the easiest things to break
09:12<@peter1138>Not got a spare PSU to test.
09:12<@peter1138>Oh well...
09:12<@peter1138>It's quieter without that on anyway.
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i moved my 2nd PC to the basement
09:14<@peter1138>Yeah but is England, we don't do basements :(
09:14<V453000>dancing cubes XD this is great
09:14<@peter1138>Dancing Qubicles!#
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>anyone know how to fix my chromium? it doesn't play youtube anymore :/
09:18<@peter1138>Is it in HTML5 mode?
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>at least it used to...
09:18<LordAro>"html5 mode" is always on now, i think
09:19<@peter1138>Not always.
09:19<@peter1138>Firefox doesn't support everything.
09:19<@peter1138>(Or at least, Iceweasel doesn't support everything.)
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>well, i switched it on some time ago, but i can never find that setting
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>it works in firefox
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>but it has some nasty memleak, which is why i switched to chromium
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>also, firefox has some minor annoyances when switching to full screen
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09:24<@peter1138>I never understood the fullscreen warning...
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09:24<Celestar>Warning! Fullscreen!
09:24<@peter1138><page switches to fullscreen> hey this webpage is fullscreen, do you want to allow that?
09:24<@peter1138>... er... isn't that a bit late?
09:24<Celestar>they thought: 'if your disk is full, you want a warning'.
09:24<Celestar>so if your screen is full ...
09:24<@peter1138>Must be
09:25<Celestar>gday :)
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but also the video skips backwards a few seconds
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>i guess the point of that warning is to have a way to exit full screen
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>for people who don't find the [Esc] key...
09:29<argoneus>is there a button in openttd
09:29<argoneus>to close the most recently opened window?
09:29<argoneus>I know of delete, but that's rather aggressive
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>only all windows, and all windows that are not stickied
09:29<argoneus>is there a reason why it's not possible to do only the last one?
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>because nobody ever requested that
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>also, that information is probably not stored anywhere
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09:31<argoneus>I would use it so much :(
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>well, then implement it
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't take more than a day or so
09:33<argoneus>I wish I had more time than a few hours in the evening
09:33<argoneus>if even that
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09:34<@planetmaker>argoneus, how many time do you think other people have who regularily contribute?
09:34<argoneus>I dunno
09:34<@planetmaker>few hours in the evening make it possible to write that in a week
09:34<argoneus>I imagined most people are working people
09:34<@planetmaker>should it require a whole day
09:34<argoneus>who come home from work and do hobbies
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09:34<@planetmaker>yeah. So an evening is what they have. At most
09:35<argoneus>I come home from either work or uni at 7, and then I need to do my assignments and/or study for exams
09:35<argoneus>and after all that I'm rarely motivated to code my own things for fun
09:35<argoneus>because my brain is just ded
09:36<dihedral>Celestar, :-)
09:36<argoneus>then again
09:36<argoneus>I am probably just weak, if I really wanted to find time, I maybe would
09:36<@planetmaker>a dihedral and a Celestar. Rare guests :)
09:37<dihedral>at the same time ;-)
09:37<@planetmaker>like Easter and Christmas at the same date :P
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09:39<V453000>Ok I think I will just render 4096x2048 sprites XD
09:40<V453000>moar pixulz
09:40<b_jonas>V453000: sure, but render them in 64 bit per pixel depth
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12:58<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r27026 /trunk/src (script/api/script_company.cpp settings_gui.cpp) (2014-10-21 16:58:15 UTC)
12:58<@DorpsGek>-Fix: some (older-ish) GCC compiler warnings
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13:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27027 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-10-21 17:48:00 UTC)
13:48<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:48<@DorpsGek>catalan - 2 changes by juanjo
13:48<@DorpsGek>dutch - 2 changes by habell
13:48<@DorpsGek>finnish - 45 changes by jpx_
13:48<@DorpsGek>irish - 58 changes by tem
13:48<@DorpsGek>spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
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14:31<Wolf01>hi hi
14:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27028 /branches/1.4 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2014-10-21 18:31:51 UTC)
14:31<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Update documentation
14:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27029 /tags/1.4.4 (10 files in 4 dirs) (2014-10-21 18:33:24 UTC)
14:33<@DorpsGek>-Release: 1.4.4
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14:56<iamtakingiteasy>hi, is there any options in openttd.cfg which affect probability, and frequence of industries bankruption and eventually closing?
14:57<andythenorth>not afaik
14:57<__ln__>*are there + plural
14:57<andythenorth>smooth economy setting affects it
14:57<andythenorth>but that’s in the UI
14:58<iamtakingiteasy>__ln__: sorry. My English is pretty weak, indeed.
14:58<iamtakingiteasy>andythenorth: oh, there is smooth_economy in config
14:59<iamtakingiteasy>thank you, i'll try this option
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>mind you that smooth economy will probably not affect most NewGRF industries
15:16<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r27030 /trunk/src (4 files) (2014-10-21 19:16:47 UTC)
15:16<@DorpsGek>-Fix: crash when having the vehicle list opened from a buoy or oil rig while the buoy/oil rig gets its final removal (i.e. the sign gets removed)
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15:29<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.4.4
15:29-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.4.4 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
15:30<frosch123>heffer: blathijs: new release \o/
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16:15<blathijs>frosch123: Awesome :-D
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18:43<argoneus>good night train friends
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 22 00:00:03 2014