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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-10-22

---Logopened Wed Oct 22 00:00:03 2014
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03:00<argoneus>good morning train friends
03:03<V453000>enemy
03:03<V453000>are you REALISTIC?
03:03<V453000>I luv it
03:05<argoneus>w-wut
03:06<V453000>exactly
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04:04*Flygon prods argoneus
04:04<Flygon>I'm a Flygon, not a Train D:
04:04<Flygon>Also I'm utterly nuts
04:06*V453000 uses hexa coordinates for his 16x16 grid of trains
04:06<V453000>despite hating hexa numbers
04:06<V453000>ha
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04:11*V453000 is proud of himself
04:15<@peter1138>sup?
04:18<V453000>wtf up
04:18<V453000>also down
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04:42<Celestar>good day
04:42<__ln__>average
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>cold
04:59<@planetmaker>rain with Westerly gusty winds
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05:06<FLodos>hi!
05:07<FLodos>i'm in a bit of a problem, maybe somone here can help me?
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05:08<Eddi|zuHause>no
05:10<argoneus>maybe he was getting murdered
05:10<argoneus>in his apartment
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05:12<supermop>i usually turn to irc when getting murdered
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>how often does that happen to you?
05:17<@peter1138># i just wanna be... a woman
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05:27<@peter1138>Yeah, maybe that web interface work was really useful...
05:27<@peter1138>... *making
05:27<@planetmaker>hello petra1138
05:27<@peter1138>hello planetifex
05:28<@peter1138>hee, this font looks weird ;P
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06:34<LordAro>hmm, you guys not going to announce 1.4.4 then? :L
06:57<@peter1138>98KB for a house place patch :(
07:01<argoneus>are you guys going to announce half life 3
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07:24<@planetmaker>still, I think house placement in SE makes sense. But I didn't yet look at that patch series (again)
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>how can that be more than 10LOC for the construction part and 100LOC for the gui part?
07:28<@peter1138>Maybe they're very long lines :)
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>the gui would be mostly copy-paste from the object gui
07:29<@peter1138>That doesn't make it smaller.
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>no
07:29<@peter1138>CMD_DEITY
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>but easier :p
07:29<@peter1138>o_O
07:30<@peter1138>Never seen that one before, heh.
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>that should be something that game scripts do
07:30<@planetmaker>sudo place house basically :)
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>the gui should probably be filterable by town zone
07:33<@peter1138>Callbacks make all that shit hard.
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07:33<@peter1138>Bye
07:35<V453000>time for beer
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07:45<@peter1138>Urgh, image rentention issues :(
07:47<@Rubidium>what's rentention?
07:47<@peter1138>Persistence?
07:49-!-sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit []
07:50<@Rubidium>oh, so it is retention; thought it might mean something completely different with the extra n
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07:58<@peter1138>It must be a known 'fault' before manufacture, because it's the only monitor I've seen with an LCD conditioning mode designed to reduce retention...
07:58<@peter1138>I wonder how long I'd have to keep that on.
08:02<b_jonas>ugh
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08:12<V453000>my spritesheets are going to be utter insanity XD
08:16<argoneus>is that why your trains have such ludicrous names
08:18<V453000>no that is something different :)
08:18<V453000>related, maybe
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09:11<@planetmaker>argoneus, correlation is not causality ;)
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09:14<argoneus>planetmaker: that
09:14<argoneus>that's too deep for me*
09:14<argoneus>whoever put ' next to enter should not be given any medals
09:15<@Rubidium>argoneus: you're free to make your own keyboard layout
09:15<argoneus>not at work :(
09:15<@Rubidium>why not?
09:15<argoneus>also as much as I hate to admit it, the default english keyboard is perfect for coding
09:15<@Rubidium>just take the keyboard home and rewire it
09:15<argoneus>I don't know where else I would put '
09:16<@Rubidium>at the location of the `?
09:16<argoneus>but I use ~
09:17<@Rubidium>alternatively move out the return; it's not needed by most programming languages anyhow
09:17<@Rubidium>e.g. only keep the one of the numpad area and unwire the one near the '
09:17<argoneus>python-chan would hate me
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10:22<andythenorth>anyone compiling ottd on OS X Yosemite yet?
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10:28*Rubidium isn't
10:34*Xaroth|Work isn't
10:34<@Rubidium>it's also a long time ago I did anything related with Yosemite
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10:36<andythenorth>maybe someone in the forums will :P
10:39*Rubidium must say that Apple and Microsoft are equally well suited with completely messing up version numbering
10:40-!-MTsPony [~MTsPony@008-086-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:41<@Rubidium>OS X 10.7.3 == Darwin 11.3, OS X 10.7.4 == Darwin 11.4, OS X 10.7.5 == Darwin 11.4.2...
10:42<@Rubidium>OS X 10.9 == Darwin 13.0, OS X 10.9.1 == Darwin 13.0..., OS X 10.9.2 == Darwin 13.1
10:42<@Rubidium>really...
10:43<@Rubidium>hmm
10:43<__ln__>i guess you could get an equally nonsensical list by comparing Debian release numbers with the kernel versions they were shipped with.
10:43<@Rubidium>OS X 10.1 = Darwin 1.4.1, OS X 10.1.1 = Darwin 5.1
10:44<@Rubidium>__ln__: but the Debian kernel(s) are not refered to as the "OS Name"
10:44<@Rubidium>after all, Darwin is an operating system... the Debian kernel(s) aren't
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10:46<@Rubidium>also, for Debian there is no general "mapping" between kernel version and OS version.
10:47<__ln__>did apple ever promise or document such mapping for OS X?
10:47<@Rubidium>for OS X there kinda is: OSX minor + 4.OSX build ~= Darwin major.Darwin minor
10:48<@Rubidium>__ln__: don't know, but it's kinda evident that it is more or less the current behaviour
10:49<andythenorth>‘Open Source’ Darwin is just Apple’s equivalent of green washing
10:49<andythenorth>Apple has zero interest in any genuine open source ethos
10:49<andythenorth>which should be obvious :P
10:49<__ln__>andythenorth: how do you measure genuinity?
10:51<andythenorth>“I know it when I don’t see it”
10:51<andythenorth>dunno, I’m pretty happy that I can read Apple and what they care about and what they don't
10:52<__ln__>for example, apple created pre-compiled header support for GCC years before such support was available in mainline GCC.
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10:55<@Rubidium>__ln__: ... because Apple didn't want to play by the rules of GCC anymore
10:56<__ln__>... so implementing a new feature for a GPL-licensed piece of software is a bad thing because of that?
10:57<@Rubidium>no, but over time they Apple has become less and less open to open source
10:57<__ln__>yes, no doubt.
10:58<@Rubidium>e.g. the effective ban on GPL-ed software in their application distribution system
10:58-!-luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
10:59<@Rubidium>true, Debian is somewhat pedantic the other way around... but for Debian it's just one line in a configuration file away for getting the non-free stuff that is packaged for Debian
10:59<andythenorth>Rubidium: nah, Apple have become about the same amount of open to open source
10:59<andythenorth>they never seriously cared, and they still don’t seriously care
11:00<andythenorth>and they never will seriously care, unless the people running it change rather a lot
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12:06<@Alberth>o/
12:09<frosch123>hai
12:10<Taede>o/
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13:03<andythenorth>meh
13:03<@Alberth>hihi
13:03<andythenorth>I suppose I’ll update my wife’s laptop to OS X Yosemite
13:03<andythenorth>and try compiling on that
13:04<andythenorth>then do the inevitable crap to make it work :P
13:04<andythenorth>only just fixed my Mavericks compile :(
13:04<@Alberth>buy a normal pc, put it in a quiet corner and work remotely? :p
13:04<@planetmaker>:D
13:05<andythenorth>where’s the fun
13:05<andythenorth>I could just put linux in a VM
13:05<andythenorth>if I wanted to cheat :P
13:06<@Alberth>install linux, and run osx in a vm :p
13:06<@Alberth>probably more fun than you care to have :)
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13:27<frosch123>hmm, where would be the correct place in ottd to add a button "manual", which opens the wiki manual in a browser?
13:28<andythenorth>question mark menu
13:28<frosch123>hmm, i guess a "?" button in every window caption
13:29<@planetmaker>frosch123, main menu. And behind the ? button in main toolbar
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13:29<frosch123>i think something context sensitive would make more sense
13:29<Wolf01>hello o/
13:29<@Alberth>hello
13:29<frosch123>but yes, those two places for generall wiki mapge
13:29<@planetmaker>how context sensitive do you want it?
13:30<frosch123>the ? in the order gui shall link to the wiki page about the order gui
13:30<@Alberth>context sensitive makes sense, but clutters up the window title bar somewhat
13:30<@planetmaker>wow, you really want to take it far :)
13:30<andythenorth>you don’t need help everywhere
13:30<andythenorth>I’ve built apps that tried to do it
13:31<andythenorth>it’s overkill
13:31<@Alberth>but then you have to decide which one is useful
13:31<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/Orders <- though i guess we do not have such pages for all windows :p
13:31<__ln__>how do you open the browser while in fullscreen?
13:31<@Alberth>hmm, translations jump to translated wiki?
13:31<frosch123>Alberth: isn't there enough space in the window title?
13:31<frosch123>Alberth: not possible with current wiki, i think
13:32<andythenorth>one help option on global menu is adequate
13:32<frosch123>hmm, unless we actually do not link directly to the wiki
13:32<frosch123>but to manual.openttd.org/windowid/langid
13:32<@planetmaker>we already have 3 buttons in window title bar
13:32<frosch123>which has some script magic that scan the wiki for pages and linked translations
13:32<@Alberth>and no location button yet either :)
13:33<@Alberth>oh, in general there is plenty of space in the title bar
13:33<frosch123>[close] title [location] [help] [defsize] [sticky]
13:33<andythenorth>don’t need help there
13:33<andythenorth>:)
13:33<andythenorth>try it?
13:33<frosch123>maybe some advanced setting for each button? :p left/right/off
13:33<@planetmaker>[debug]
13:34<frosch123>debug does not count :p
13:34<@planetmaker>lol @ settings :)
13:34<frosch123>anyway, if we add some padding between them, it should not be too confusing
13:34<@planetmaker>generally I'm +1 to that idea
13:34<frosch123>[close] title [location] [help] (padding) [defsize] [sticky]
13:34<andythenorth>do the apps you use have help icon on every window group?
13:35<andythenorth>are you sure we don’t want clippy instead? o-O
13:35<andythenorth>o_O
13:35<frosch123>not every
13:35<frosch123>ottd doesn't have wiki pages on all windows
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13:35<frosch123>there are tooltips for the details, but a wiki for the general description would be nice
13:36<@planetmaker>Well, generally we could add it to all windows. If there's no wiki yet, it's incentive to create that page
13:36-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
13:37<@Alberth>hi hi Zuu
13:37<Zuu>Hello Alberth
13:37<@planetmaker>o/
13:37<frosch123>hmm, i guess it needs some ottd redirection, something like manual.openttd.org/version/windowid/language
13:37<frosch123>that would allow linking to different pages for different ottd versions
13:37<andythenorth>yes
13:37<Zuu>Hello everyone else :-)
13:37<andythenorth>you end up needing a help redirection manager
13:37-!-FLodos [5355c702@d.clients.kiwiirc.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client]
13:37<@Alberth>we hire andy :)
13:37<andythenorth>ideally web based, ideally changeable without editing the app
13:38<andythenorth>did I mention I’ve done this before?
13:38<LordAro>ah, hellos are being done here :) o/ Zuu
13:38<frosch123>andythenorth: we already have a redirection for the grf search
13:38<@Alberth>you sound like a manager :)
13:38<frosch123>and wiki pages are not created that often :p
13:38<andythenorth>what are we trying to solve?
13:38<andythenorth>(other than making it easy to access wiki)
13:38<@planetmaker>yes... such re-direction makes sense
13:38<@planetmaker>with a fallback at least from language->english
13:39<frosch123>LordAro: i searched the wiki for the release annoucement, so i could post it
13:39<frosch123>but you didn't link to one, like you usually do
13:39<LordAro>aw
13:39<LordAro>:p
13:39<LordAro>wait, release announcement?
13:39<LordAro>do you mean anything different to http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTD_1.4.4
13:40<frosch123>LordAro: at the bottom there is only a link to 1.4.4-rc1 news, but not to 1.4.4 :/
13:41<LordAro>that's because there wasn't one?
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13:41<LordAro>that was my point :L
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13:41<frosch123>andythenorth: planetmaker: anyway, i guess the first step would be figureing out whether there are more than 3 windows, which could link to usable info :p
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13:42<LordAro>http://www.openttd.org/en/ <-- indeed, no news article :p
13:42<@Alberth>yes, he said that
13:42<Zuu>Related to context help, in a program that I work on we have F1 = go to corresponding page in the manual. It has bindings for most input fields in the entire application to some page in the manual.
13:43<frosch123>F1 is pause :p
13:43<frosch123>that is more important than help
13:43<Zuu>Yeah, this is a desktop application.
13:43<@Alberth>MUCH more important :)
13:44<frosch123>we could use ctrl+scrolllock for help :p
13:44<@planetmaker>lol
13:44<@planetmaker>why don't we bind 'space' to help?
13:44<Zuu>How many newbies will figure out that?
13:44<@planetmaker>err. to pause
13:44<Zuu>(ctrl + scroll lock)
13:44<Zuu>Space clears news messages
13:45<@planetmaker>oh, it does?
13:45<@planetmaker>:D
13:45<Zuu>Ctrl + Space could pause
13:45<frosch123>Zuu: but it would entertain the forums :)
13:45<Zuu>Sure
13:45<Zuu>Doesn't the pause button already pause the game?
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27031 trunk/src/lang/irish.txt (2014-10-22 17:45:39 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>irish - 94 changes by tem
13:46<@Alberth>Zuu: it's at the wrong end of the keyboard :)
13:46<frosch123>anyway, i don't think "help" needs a hotkey
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13:46<frosch123>i window button is more useful
13:46<frosch123>people who need help are more likely to press a "?" button than to press F1
13:46<Zuu>Alberth: Remap that key if you don't like its placement.
13:47<frosch123>it should also be in a place where you do not accidentially press it
13:47<frosch123>opening a browser in the middle of the game is certainly annoying
13:47<@Rubidium>the turbo button
13:47<@Alberth>hmm, ECS help for ECS industries?
13:48<@Rubidium>also... how are you going to handle the game script windows? A script specific page?
13:48<frosch123>BAD FEATURE :p
13:48<frosch123>if any removes descriptions for engines, we hardly want him to add a wiki link instead :p
13:48<frosch123>*andy
13:48<@planetmaker>looking for http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECS, Alberth ?
13:49<@Alberth>planetmaker: no, I just pressed the theoretical "help" button at my theoretical ECS game
13:49<@planetmaker>:) FIRS and ECS do have elaborate help pages
13:49<@Alberth>and wondered what should happen
13:49<@planetmaker>and YETI and NUTS
13:50<@planetmaker>Alberth, it could open the URL provided by action14 of the newgrf
13:50<@Alberth>that's the general discussion page, I think?
13:50<Zuu>Or add new APIs in the spec where they can provide help URLs for things that they provide.
13:51<@Alberth>obviously, I want information about the coal mine that's in the window :p
13:51<frosch123>yeah, the new scenario format also needs a method to add signs with urls
13:51<Zuu>Eg. if you declare a coal mine, you could set its helpUrl attribute to your manual wiki.
13:52<frosch123>so you can properly label your realworld scenario with wiki landscape descriptions
13:52<@Alberth>nice idea frosch123
13:52<@planetmaker>action0 property as URL? :D
13:53<frosch123>i hope no callback 36 :p
13:53<@planetmaker>lol
13:53<Zuu>Another way would be to allow longer texts etc. in the game and have an in-game doc viewer. But that is probably not as feature packed viewer as a modern web browser.
13:53<@planetmaker>frosch123, though sure it can make sense. Depending on climate, on year, on... you-name-it
13:53<frosch123>Zuu: for complicated things you also want images
13:53<Zuu>Allow to specify URLs and provide help buttons is probably easier to implement though.
13:53<frosch123>a browser is a far nicer solution for that
13:54<frosch123>and if we switch to video tutorials, no issue either :p
13:54<@Alberth>at this tile napoleon died in the the battle of waterloo
13:55<@planetmaker>:)
13:55<frosch123>yeah, a lot more options to play realistically :)
13:55<George>You are discussing adding URI s to the game, but can't add a total consist weight property... SHOCKED 8-O
13:55<frosch123>yes, because one makes sense, while the other does not
13:56<frosch123>anyway, noone added uris yet :p
13:56<George>From my point of view URIs has much less sense
13:57<frosch123>i told you, weight makes no sense because it depends on slopes, slope settings, freight settings, ...
13:57<George>It does not depend. It tain acceselaration model depend. Weigth itself is not
13:58<George>Open the train props window and see it while train moves
13:58<George>Total weight displayd and changes only on load/unload
13:59<George>If a player can wach this value why can't the code do it?
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13:59<frosch123>it is not the job of newgrf to add custom acceleratio mechanics
13:59<George>And it does not. But calculation of RC is
14:00<frosch123>if you had requested a "engine usage" variable or whatever, it would make sense
14:00<frosch123>but "weight" is useless
14:00<George>what is engine usage?
14:01<George>% percent of power it uses at the moment? (100% on acceleration, less on max speed?)
14:01<frosch123>the current power output of the engine to accelerate resp. hold the speed, compared to the maximum output it can do
14:02<George>value betwen 0% and 100%?
14:02<frosch123>no idea, maybe negative for breaking
14:02<V453000>why do you need such a thing George?
14:02<frosch123>*braking
14:02<@planetmaker>breaking is -oo ;)
14:02<George>When is it 100%?
14:03<@planetmaker>during acceleration
14:03<@peter1138>It is 100% except when it is stopping or stopped.
14:03<frosch123>when not braking and not limited by top speed
14:03<frosch123>it may be 70% if at top speed, but uphill
14:04<@peter1138>In game, the speed limit just stops it going faster, it still calculates the acceleration with full power.
14:06<@peter1138>(Or was something added for the purposes of smoke generation?)
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14:06<George>frosch123: If it is less than 100% at the top speed I may use it instead total weight. Can you provide such var?
14:07<frosch123>some places can defnitely differ between "still accelerating" or "limited by various speed limits"
14:08<@Alberth>V453000: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/link/1413657900#1413657900
14:09<George>frosch123: it is not enough to have just "limited" value. it should be between 0% and 100% to represent which % is used
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14:09<@peter1138>Also there is only one value for the entire train.
14:09<V453000>thanks Alberth :) reward! :D https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/SLUG_0000.png
14:10<V453000>almost ready to put models there :D
14:10<V453000>making automatic infrastructure to get spritesheets from render
14:10<V453000>full spritesheet like this would be 32k x 1024 XD
14:10<V453000>[iz for trains]
14:11<@Alberth>slug must be hding at the other side of the board :)
14:12<V453000>it is there just not visible :p
14:12<frosch123>V453000: we do not yet have newlandscape, you cannot label the grass tiles in toyland
14:12<@Alberth>ugh, you're making insane images sizes too, just like zeph? :)
14:12<@peter1138>frosch123, nothing in the code does that.
14:12<V453000>LOL
14:13<V453000>I have 128x128 for train sprites
14:13<V453000>same in all rotations
14:13<V453000>idk what zeph has
14:13<V453000>but it is the safe size where you can get all rotations into it when the vehicle is just rotating around its center
14:14<V453000>and 128 is the full width of -- side views assuming the stretching
14:14<@peter1138>Are you sure there'll be nothing overlaping?
14:14<@Alberth>V453000: https://code.google.com/p/freerct/source/browse/trunk/graphics/sprites/tracks/cars
14:14<V453000>peter1138: am 100% sure
14:14<V453000>of course it has its limits
14:15<@peter1138>Yeah, using a sprite sheet is a bit weird.
14:15<V453000>but as long as the vehicles stay 0.5 tile long, 0.45 tile tall and something fat, it is fine
14:15<V453000>which should work
14:15<@peter1138>Do you copy the vehicle for each view?
14:15<V453000>no that is done automatically
14:15<@Alberth>one car, 16 orientations in rotating around 3 axes
14:15<V453000>this image is rendered 8 times
14:15<V453000>vehicles just rotate on the spot
14:16<V453000>so the final sprite output is 256x8 from one thing like this
14:16<@Alberth>s/vehicles/slugs/
14:16<V453000>now, I have it done flexibly so for less vehicles I can simply use e.g. 4x4 grid, and the spritesheet will only be that large, too
14:16<V453000>the 16x16 should be only for some wagons and even that should be like half-filled
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14:17<V453000>since a wagon can have idk, 25 cargo variations and e.g. 5 loading stages, it adds up quickly :)
14:18<George>frosch123: So, would situation change if I request engine usage instead of total weight?
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14:20*andythenorth goes to war with javascript :x
14:22<andythenorth>hmm
14:22<andythenorth>also
14:22<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=71462
14:23<@Alberth>you missed an opportunity to make a newgrf :)
14:23<andythenorth>well
14:24<andythenorth>it’s funny timing
14:24<andythenorth>I’m adding a type of vehicle to Road Hog that transports supplies
14:24<andythenorth>I considered making it refit to the exact supply requirements of FIRS
14:24<andythenorth>same as that post suggests
14:24<andythenorth>but isn’t that dumb?
14:25<andythenorth>why not just remove the supply requirements?
14:25<V453000>xd
14:25<V453000>it isnt a bad idea andy
14:25<andythenorth>removing supplies?
14:25<V453000>using chameleon trains from NUTS which can do the same thing, is simply convenient for efficiency
14:26<V453000>no
14:26<V453000>making vehicles easily carry the requried FIRS amount
14:26<andythenorth>so why not just make farms and mines require same amounts?
14:26<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the supplies are not a bad thing. It adds some challenge to the game
14:26<@planetmaker>it ensures there's two mechanisms. And if you prefer one can simply ignore the supplies anyway
14:26<andythenorth>the only challenge is buy vehicle of precise required size and run it
14:27<@Alberth>yeah, which implies tracks and space for the vehicles
14:27<andythenorth>so having perfectly matched vehicles is not a bad feature? :o
14:27<V453000>no, it is good
14:27<@planetmaker>andythenorth, and the requirement for different vehicles also is not exactly bad. It gives rise to actually look at more than one vehicle for stuff
14:28<@planetmaker>having perfectly matched vehicles doesn't hurt. Not at all
14:28<@Alberth>I can't really care, I just deliver way too much anyway to make stuff run fluently
14:28<V453000>andythenorth: the exact vehicle capacity is just OCD anyway, if you deliver 5 extra supplies it wont ruin you :D
14:28<andythenorth>seemed like a terrible idea when I was going to add it to RH
14:28<V453000>as Alberth just said
14:28<V453000>XD
14:28<andythenorth>so you’re saying I should do this in RH too?
14:28<@planetmaker>Alberth, or that. That doesn't hurt either. I try to distribute it evenly. But that's too much most often, too. Why care? I get money for it
14:29<V453000>well mainly what else to do with it pm
14:29<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you don't need to. But if you do, it's not a mistake
14:29<V453000>if all industries have it and all have too much :D
14:29<@planetmaker>V453000, exactly
14:29<andythenorth>I dunno
14:29<andythenorth>I always come back to supplies are stupid
14:29<andythenorth>and requiring precise amounts is stupid
14:29<V453000>XD
14:29<V453000>it isnt
14:29<andythenorth>but I never think of a better answer
14:29<@planetmaker>andythenorth, but it doesn't require precise amounts. Just regular delivery
14:30<V453000>it does require amounts to keep some production rate pm
14:30<@Alberth>you don't require precise amounts, you only set a minimum
14:30<@peter1138>Hrmm, maybe I should start a new game... 256x128 doesn't last long
14:30<V453000>84 within 3 months?
14:30<@planetmaker>yeah. there's only a minimum requirement. That's ok
14:30<@Alberth>and it's an extra layer, you can do once you have the basic system running
14:31<andythenorth>I wonder if it should be simpler
14:31<frosch123>peter1138: rubidium had some savegame on 128x128 or so, transporting more than coop on 512x512
14:31<andythenorth>something like good service = production boost
14:31<andythenorth>or something
14:31<@Alberth>although gang-ho usually causes havoc in your network :p
14:31<@planetmaker>that's way too simple, andythenorth
14:31<@planetmaker>buy stupidly many trains. Done
14:32<@Alberth>supplies require a new separate network, that spreads out to the industries
14:32<@planetmaker>requiring at least X of cargo Y for production boost is not exactly bad.
14:32<@Alberth>instead of dump it all at one place
14:32<@Alberth>ie it's a different problem
14:32<@Rubidium>frosch123: http://rbijker.net/openttd/misc/mine.png you mean? ;)
14:32<V453000>I think suppliesa re fine
14:32<frosch123>Rubidium: yep
14:32<@planetmaker>and indeed, supplies manage to force players to deliver stuff to many places, thus building a n->n network instead of n->1 netwo0rk
14:33<andythenorth>they bug me
14:33<V453000>SHIP HAX XD
14:33<andythenorth>but FIRS is 6 years old
14:33<andythenorth>and no better idea yet
14:33<@Rubidium>frosch123: too bad I actually lost the savegame :(
14:34<V453000>andythenorth: allowing for something more dynamic, the produce_256 callback can do awesome things, too
14:34<V453000>you deliver less, you get less, you deliver more, you get more
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14:34<V453000>kind of like processing
14:34<@planetmaker>V453000, that's got potential for positive and negative feedback cycles. FIRS has that less as it stretches the time span for that more
14:34<V453000>idk if you could make the effect last for a longer period
14:35<V453000>to reduce that effect
14:35<andythenorth>well
14:35<@planetmaker>that's what FIRS does, V453000
14:35<andythenorth>that’s kind of what FIRS does
14:35<V453000>I know
14:35<andythenorth>it sucks
14:35<V453000>but idk if produce_256 can react slower like that / keep production for longer I mean
14:35<andythenorth>especially farms
14:35<andythenorth>FIRS farms suck
14:35<V453000>the point is, if a player deliver 293719 supplies per month, it is nice to let them have higher production
14:35<@planetmaker>I disagree :(
14:35<@planetmaker>farm clusters are awesome
14:36<V453000>not linearly not to motivate dumping everything to one spot
14:36<V453000>but allowing for more
14:36<frosch123>andythenorth: i think you should play a different industry set for once
14:36<frosch123>people love firs, but you have played it too often for yourself
14:37<frosch123>now you want to change it just for the purpose of changing it
14:37<andythenorth>you might be right
14:37<andythenorth>on the other hand I still think it sucks
14:37<andythenorth>maybe the answer is a new set
14:37<V453000>definitely better answer than wrecking supplies
14:37<@planetmaker>maybe. FIRS works great
14:38<V453000>supplies are what makes FIRS special
14:38<@planetmaker>^^
14:38<V453000>or just make an economy
14:38<frosch123>newgrf do not need to be perfect, they need to be different :p
14:38<@Alberth>andythenorth: as author you are always well aware of the weak points, since you're focused on them. Also look at the good things every now and then :)
14:38<andythenorth>frosch123: agreed
14:38<andythenorth>Alberth: nice to say, but it only gets better by kicking it, no?
14:39<@Alberth>not without a good plan :)
14:39<andythenorth>plans :P
14:39<andythenorth>plans are for project mangers :P
14:39<andythenorth>so stupid refittable vehicles for Road Hog?
14:39<@Alberth>but an experimental industry set could be useful
14:40<andythenorth>I dunno, this ‘perfectly sized refit’ smells of BAD FEATURE to me
14:40<V453000>there is nothing bad about it
14:40<andythenorth>also supplies were only added so I could draw this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf_wNfd89aA
14:40<V453000>as I said, if the capacity is 48 or 50 doesnt even matter much
14:40<V453000>you would lose 2 out of 48 supplies
14:40<andythenorth>V453000: BUT THAT IS NOT OPTIMAL
14:41<V453000>you already lose more by having station rating worse with RVs than with trains
14:41<V453000>not assuming FIRS station rating hax XD
14:41<andythenorth>EVERYTHING MUST BE 100%
14:41<V453000>ok :D
14:42<andythenorth>all those weird players posting about all these shitty hacks with little feeders and crap
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>i must be in a fever delirium... did V just advocate for something less optimal?
14:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause is still alive
14:42<andythenorth>I thought we’d lost him to TF
14:43<V453000>Eddi it just doesnt matter :P
14:43<andythenorth>hmm maybe I deleted the nonsense from wiki page https://wiki.openttd.org/FIRS
14:43<V453000>players have vast excess of supplies anyway
14:46<andythenorth>can I just make farms and mines have same requirements?
14:47<andythenorth>then one vehicle can be provided without this refit bollocks
14:47<V453000>XD
14:48<V453000>well if you make farms require the same as mines then it will be even harder to set them up
14:48<V453000>but again the current amount of supplies produced is generally so high that it should not matter much
14:49<andythenorth>see, the amounts are totally arbitrary, no?
14:49<andythenorth>might as well be 1t and 2t
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14:51<V453000>it still matters in cases until you got everything working together
14:51<andythenorth>V453000: what was it you hated about farms?
14:51<andythenorth>something
14:52<V453000>tedious to set up, cant reproduce supplies while metal/oil can
14:52<V453000>were the main two
14:52<V453000>basically, it can be tedious to set up but must be rewarding
14:52<andythenorth>frigging tedious
14:52<andythenorth>I hate them
14:52<V453000>if it is tedious but "meh" then most players just go metal/oil and fuck the rest
14:53<andythenorth>also supplies are too fragile
14:53<andythenorth>they collapse horribly, deadlocking networks
14:53<andythenorth>it’s boring
14:53<andythenorth>maybe they should use pax instead
14:54<@Alberth>that's the "workers" industry set :)
14:54<V453000>nothing collapses if your network is proper
14:55<V453000>deadlocking is the player problem
14:55<V453000>and if industry set makes it easier to deadlock, network just has to be more immune to it
14:55<V453000>which is good, adds things to be careful about
14:55<andythenorth>I dunno
14:55<andythenorth>I can’t prevent deadlocks
14:55<andythenorth>I’ve been playing 10 years
14:55<andythenorth>it’s boring, trying to ensure you never bridge any networks
14:55<V453000>overflow depots are the ultimate solution :)
14:55<SpComb>infinite depot
14:55<andythenorth>cheating
14:56<V453000>iz feature
14:56<andythenorth>also doesn’t help with cdist routing supplies to arbitrary places
14:56<@planetmaker>no problem to get it working with just one network really
14:56<V453000>well you can also build long as fuck loops to let trains go there, not infinite
14:56<V453000>but helping
14:56<V453000>cdist is just bullshit with supplies really
14:56<@planetmaker>cdist makes it less optimal to use. Yet still it somewhat works
14:56<V453000>easily breaks games
14:57<V453000>we had one whole farm cluster get 0 supplies for wtf reason
14:57<V453000>trains were going there, everything was set up, but suddenly the distribution stopped liking the place
14:57<andythenorth>because cdist prefers to route 75% of output via one 30t tram
14:57<V453000>idk if it liked it before
14:57<andythenorth>instead of 500t of fast trains
14:57<V453000>still, cdist is just bad with firs
14:58<andythenorth>yeah but cdist is how the game is now
14:58<andythenorth>so FIRS should change
14:58<V453000>is not
14:58<V453000>and being able to decide where supplies go and where they dont, is quite interesting
14:58<V453000>not being told where they should be
14:59<SpComb>never tried industry cdist
14:59<V453000>btw andythenorth I got caught in the andythesouth syndrome; creating automatization for 3 days already, hoping to save time in the FUTURE eventually
14:59<andythenorth>this happens
14:59<SpComb>pax cdist + traditional cargo
15:00<andythenorth>that means transfers
15:04<@peter1138>cdest :S
15:05<V453000>=D got 64 tiles ready to be spritesheeted :D
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15:09<@peter1138>Should I make viewports double size?
15:10<frosch123>i assume you do not mean the viewport, which you can zoom?
15:11<frosch123>but town/vehicle/industry/news viewports should likely be affected by gui zoom
15:12<@peter1138>Yeah I mean all the other ones.
15:12<andythenorth>I wouldn’t
15:12<andythenorth>but you might
15:12<@peter1138>Well
15:12<@peter1138>Main issue is not the zoom but the actual size.
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15:16<@planetmaker>well. error window gets too small for some single words :)
15:18<andythenorth>on my 13" screen, the lovely 2x gui fills a lot of screen…
15:18<andythenorth>which is fine
15:18<andythenorth>but can’t fit much on it
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>i'd assume all default window sizes will be scaled by gui zoom
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>which would include all viewports
15:29<@peter1138>No, they're not.
15:30<@peter1138>I tried that, it doesn't work out well.
15:31<andythenorth>webkit devtools just aren’t good enough
15:31<andythenorth>back to firebug, even though it’s slow as
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15:49<andythenorth>oh I remember my stupid ide
15:50<andythenorth>automatically change cargo capacity depending if refit is ENSP or FMSP
15:50<andythenorth>dumb eh?
15:55<andythenorth>not so dumb: vehicle for engineering supplies, vehicle for farm supplies, matched appropriately
15:56<andythenorth>that’s nice, easy building
15:57<@peter1138>Hmm, actually it's not that bad, but unfortunately the default sizes are only available at window construction :(
15:59<@Alberth>I once contemplated making the window description available after construction as well, iirc for screen resizing, but never made anything concrete
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16:26<@peter1138>Shouldn't be all that hard. I guess the nwidgetparts can be handled in a different way to apply a new minimum size.
16:39<argoneus>:-)
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16:52<Wolf01>'night all
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17:03<frosch123>night
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17:04<NGC3982>Windows SmartScreen blocked the 1.4.4 32-bit Windows installer as an "unrecogniced program".
17:04<NGC3982>That's new to me? :)
17:05<+glx>that's not smart
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>well, that's probably a correct categoristation, but why block it?
17:08<+glx>to prevent infections
17:09<+glx>and if you unblock you assume the risks
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>if you think every person you've never met before carries a desease, you should see a doctor
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>and not a desease doctor :p
17:11<+glx>when many windows users install stuff from unknown source and become zombies I think it's a good idea to at least make them think twice before installing something :)
17:12<@peter1138>They still won't think twice, though.
17:12<+glx>some will
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17:12<Eddi|zuHause>exactly, these warning windows are just mindlessly clicked away
17:12<Jinassi>and some line colourful toolbars and view screen 1/10 of a 22' screen
17:13<Jinassi>or use trash bin as archive
17:13<+glx>toolbars are nice ;) they make IE very slow to start
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>i hate all these installers that besides the program you want also install a dozen "toolbars"
17:15<+glx>all these checkboxes to uncheck, every time
17:15<Jinassi>Java SDK with Ask! toolbar...why, just whyyyy
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>and no amount of "smartwhatever" will protect you from those
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>for all you know, they've been paid to not do that...
17:16<+glx>I remember a virus/trojan/whatever named antivirus
17:17<+glx>and it was a pain to clean
17:17<@planetmaker>it probably was anti other virus ;)
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that a description of every anti virus? :p
17:17<@peter1138>Hmm, map height and snow height are the opposite way up on the heightmap world gen screen :S
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>for extra fun effect, install two antivirus :p
17:18<+glx>yeah the best way to be totally unprotected :)
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>they block each other, and nobody gets anything done ever again :p
17:31<NGC3982>I was more or less interested in why this version made the smartscreen software start, but none prior to it.
17:35<andythenorth>bed
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17:43<Eddi|zuHause>just assume that none of us know what that program is actually doing
17:44<@peter1138>Or what it is.
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17:45<@peter1138>Also I think your use of "start" is wrong there.
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18:23<NGC3982>I see
19:19<argoneus>good night train friends
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23:37<supermop>hmm looks like my work computer turned off?
---Logclosed Thu Oct 23 00:00:24 2014