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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-10-26

---Logopened Sun Oct 26 00:00:29 2014
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05:04<@planetmaker>seems to have been a very quiet night :) Everybody enjoyed the additional hour of sleep? :)
05:04<andythenorth>children’s body clocks are immune to clock changes
05:12<frosch123>i thought i woke up early, but it's 10 nevertheless
05:16<liq3>ugh Daylight savings. Wish it didn't exist.
05:16<frosch123>how does it matter?
05:16<frosch123>people change timezones by 4 hours between weekends and workdays
05:17<liq3>some people do.
05:17<frosch123>how do you even notice one hour?
05:18<liq3>it's not just sleep - it changes when it gets dark.
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05:20<@planetmaker>well daylight savings does not fulfill the promise under which it was introduced :)
05:20<frosch123>you mean, it never saved daylight?
05:20<frosch123>i also thought the sun does not care
05:20<@planetmaker>Na, I think the argument was that it helps to save energy. But...
05:21<@planetmaker>... all it does is cause a dip on productivity once or twice a year as all people lack sleep
05:21<frosch123>nah, it's monday anyway
05:23<@Alberth>planetmaker: yep, and now they want to get rid of it, and can't because "other countries have it too" :p
05:23<@Alberth>hi hi all btw
05:24<@planetmaker>hi hi Alberth. Yes, I've heard exactly that argument
05:24<@Alberth>I think the biggest benefit is that once a year you can suddenly get out of bed while it is light again :)
05:24<@planetmaker>I find that... not exactly convincing
05:24<@planetmaker>the argument with "other countries"
05:24<@Alberth>indeed :)
05:25<@planetmaker>if you can agree on how much a cucumber or bananas is allowed to be bent then you can damn well agree on a time change :)
05:25<@planetmaker>or none
05:25<frosch123>but who is going to patch windows xp?
05:25<@Alberth>nobody, as MS gave up support for it?
05:25<@planetmaker>oh, they still will patch it. They just charge $$$$ for it
05:26<@planetmaker>Lower Saxony purchased continued support for several Million€
05:26<@planetmaker>stupid government. Not fit to handle anything it seems
05:27<@Alberth>obviously, TCO of open source is much more expensive :p
05:27<@planetmaker>yeah, totally
05:28<@planetmaker>as obviously was migrating to a newer windows version in time
05:28<@planetmaker>it seems like the end of support for XP came as a total surprise
05:31<@Alberth>if you skipped windows 7, windows 8 is a bit early perhaps
05:32<@planetmaker>there's already windows10.
05:32<@Alberth>oh, don't keep track of stuff sufficiently, apparently :)
05:33<@planetmaker>well, it's in beta, but supposed to be released in February or so
05:34<@Alberth>it's all a bit of a mess from a system admin point of view, people use mobiles, you have note/lap/net books, tablets, and you have the MS vs Apple problem
05:34<@Alberth>so yeah, I can see it's a problem to decide what to do
05:34<@planetmaker>a hooray to open standards
05:35<@planetmaker>and open interfaces
05:35<@Alberth>sure, but new devices and connections pop up all the time, and they are again closed
05:36<@Alberth>at the uni we have a new telephone system, with fancy computer support iff you have windows
05:36<fonsinchen>You can also see it from a different angle: XP did the job well enough. There is no technical reason to change the OS.
05:36<@peter1138>Was the settings window being got rid of?
05:36<@peter1138>Wow, that was a horrible arrangement.
05:37<@Alberth>the game options windows
05:37<@peter1138>Yeah that one.
05:37<@peter1138>The one that the guy using "1920x1080" has a problem with.
05:37<@peter1138>Is it done? :p
05:37<@planetmaker>peter1138, yes, it should (IMHO) all be moved to settings window. And new game window. Whatever is appropriate
05:38<@peter1138>I'm not going to go fixing that window if it is going to be removed, that is all :)
05:38<@Alberth>people just add "zoom x2" to the gui without even checking the windows still fit :p
05:38<@planetmaker>peter1138, I think the problem really is that font size and GUI size should be separate settings
05:38<@peter1138>That one doesn't fit on 640x480, so not exactly my fault!
05:39<@planetmaker>but yes, that window is a general problem with its size
05:39<@peter1138>planetmaker, I made them same purely because it solves so many problems.
05:40<@peter1138>planetmaker, solves the station feature icons amongst other things.
05:40<andythenorth>I need a bigger screen to fit dialogs on though
05:40<andythenorth>I need them big because eyes
05:40<@peter1138>The real problem is lots of code scales height to fit width, whereas it would be better to scale width as well.
05:41<@planetmaker>peter1138, I know. Yet I think that this simple solution is not the best solution. Works for now (and better than not), but still is a thing which imho should be separated
05:41<andythenorth>so I’m still playing peter1138’s hm4.png
05:41<@planetmaker>now there's time to think about a better solution :D
05:41<andythenorth>definitely a classic
05:41<@peter1138>And also, that's mainly why I am not automatically scaling all widgets by 2x/4x.
05:41<@planetmaker>and all requests are 'feature' not 'bug' :)
05:42<@peter1138>... because you can still have a freetype font and have the text parts be 1.5x size.
05:43<@peter1138>grep GetStringHeight src/*
05:43<andythenorth>the game is fun
05:43<andythenorth>did anyone mention that?
05:43<@peter1138>If we change that API to suggest a better width, that would solve things...
05:45<andythenorth>the only annoying thing in this game right now is rivers
05:45<andythenorth>everything else is great
05:45<andythenorth>turns out the tiny UI has been barely noticably really annoying for years
05:46<andythenorth>planetmaker: do you have working code to improve rivers via newgrf?
05:47<@planetmaker>andythenorth, my best river code currently is in OpenGFX+Landscape
05:47<@peter1138>Hmm, when we elide text, why do we right-align the ...?
05:47<@planetmaker>but it doesn't change the behaviour of rivers really, just how they look
05:47*andythenorth adds it to running game :P
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05:48<@planetmaker>notably horizontal and vertical rivers are in it
05:48<@planetmaker>otherwise not much new due to a lack of sprites
05:48<@peter1138>planetmaker, I think we all want rivers to carve at this point :)
05:48<@planetmaker>hehe :)
05:48<@peter1138>Hmm, I had a patch for half-tile rivers at some point...
05:48<@planetmaker>peter1138, those are not needed really
05:49<@peter1138>What's needed is better docks!
05:49<andythenorth>the river curves can be fixed in newgrf I think
05:50<andythenorth>planetmaker: ogfx+ landscape 1.0.1 fixes rivers?
05:50<andythenorth>custom dikes?
05:50<@planetmaker>I think so. yes
05:50<andythenorth>looks less square
05:50<@planetmaker>checking for dike map and choosing sprites depending on result
05:51<andythenorth>base game should still do it imho
05:51<@planetmaker>just lots more sprites than all other river sets :D
05:51<andythenorth>but if this is the way, then this is the way
05:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth, a base set could do the same
05:52<@planetmaker>base sets don't do it any different
05:52<andythenorth>TTD base set can’t?
05:52<@planetmaker>can. If someone made the sprites and coded it in nfo.
05:53<@planetmaker>rivers are a 100% custom thing not found in TTD
05:53<andythenorth>maybe I should find the sprites I drew
05:55<frosch123>[10:47] <peter1138> Hmm, when we elide text, why do we right-align the ...? <- because that was the easiest solution that looked somewhat correct with alternating ltr and rtl text
05:57<andythenorth>hmm I think I deleted better river sprites
05:57<andythenorth>was sulking
05:58<andythenorth>yes this always looks good
05:58<andythenorth>although this looks better
05:59<@planetmaker>it does
06:01<@planetmaker>that's newgrf-able
06:01<@peter1138>frosch123, is it not possible to put it at the end of the text?
06:02<@peter1138>(or "beginning" for RTL)
06:02<andythenorth>^ that’s what I deleted in a huff
06:03<@peter1138>So, uh...
06:03<@peter1138>Airport-like docks, or rail platform-like docks?
06:03<@planetmaker> @ andythenorth
06:03<andythenorth>bouy like
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06:04<andythenorth>planetmaker: definitely better than curent state
06:04<@peter1138>andythenorth, for the land-part
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06:04<andythenorth>I like rail-like, because simple
06:05<@planetmaker>peter1138, I think rail-like is nicer
06:05<andythenorth>it’s not future proof
06:05<@planetmaker>andythenorth, "simple" probably goes vice versa :P
06:05<andythenorth>don’t we have to wait until NewStations to do this?
06:05<andythenorth>with players building their own state machine and everything
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06:07<@peter1138>And then, specific docking point(s) or just anywhere adjacent to a dock tile?
06:07<andythenorth>anywhere adjacent
06:07<frosch123>i think specific docking points
06:07<andythenorth>which is easier to route to?
06:07<@planetmaker>specific is my preference, too
06:07<@peter1138>I think specific is easier.
06:07<andythenorth>for pathfinder?
06:07<frosch123>but any of the 4 neighbours could be easier
06:07<andythenorth>do whatever is most reliable for pathfinder?
06:08<andythenorth>ship routing has enough issues
06:08<andythenorth>is 90º still disabled for ships?
06:08<@planetmaker>that setting simply should not apply to ships ever
06:08<@planetmaker>dunno if it does
06:08<frosch123>(easier from a user-interface pov)
06:08<@peter1138>You and your fake ° symbol.
06:08<andythenorth>I thought that was the proper one :(
06:09<andythenorth>normally I do 90’
06:09<andythenorth>because symbols
06:09<andythenorth>this irc client is stupid
06:09<@peter1138>º is not °
06:10<frosch123>andythenorth: 1° = 60' = 360"
06:10<@peter1138>º is Spanish masucline ordinal indicator, apparently.
06:10<@planetmaker>frosch123, missing *10? :)
06:10<@peter1138>On many fonts it has a line under it.
06:10<frosch123>yes :)
06:11<andythenorth>somewhere in here there’s the right symbol
06:11<andythenorth>90 degree
06:12<frosch123>andythenorth: it's fine as long as you use celcius
06:14<andythenorth>anyway 90 degree breaks ship routing on rivers
06:14<andythenorth>so I’ve turned it off
06:14<andythenorth>it’s also more fun for trains
06:14<andythenorth>less arsing around
06:14<frosch123>i am sure it breaks tons of coop junction layouts :p
06:14<andythenorth>(off = disabled the limitation)
06:15<andythenorth>I think SV is going to kick my ass again
06:15<andythenorth>30 years left out of 50
06:15<andythenorth>1 industry out of 5
06:15<andythenorth>all the primaries are on the wrong side of a 512x512 map
06:16<@planetmaker>frosch123, coop always plays with 90° PF being disallowed
06:17<frosch123>planetmaker: that's what i said :)
06:17<@planetmaker>ok :)
06:17<frosch123>or suspected
06:17<@peter1138>Fuck it, breakdowns off.
06:17<frosch123>because if i rely on that in my junctions, coop for sure does as well
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06:19<andythenorth>breakdowns definitely off
06:19<@peter1138>Allowing 90° breaks even simple X crosses.
06:20<@planetmaker>yes... I still think 90° should be disallowed by default
06:21<andythenorth>just remove it for ships
06:21<andythenorth>seems easiest?
06:23<@planetmaker>but still, also for trains it should be off by default
06:24<b_jonas>I'm not sure about that
06:24<b_jonas>90 deg turns for trains are good for marking rare routes that I want the route planner to discriminate against heavily
06:25<b_jonas>routes that trains should take only when they're really lost or stuck
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06:25<b_jonas>well, for that I'd also want waypoints that give a message when a train goes through them, for debugging, but that's a different and somewhat orthogonal thing
06:26<b_jonas>of course, this is only for people like me who don't build perfect train routes
06:29<andythenorth>I never manage to complicate things that much
06:30*andythenorth plays quite stupidly
06:30<b_jonas>it's not really complication. if you have two parallel tracks next to each other, you need two rails forming a 90 deg turn to allow trains to make an emergency U-turn
06:31<b_jonas>this, of course, works with path signals only
06:36<TomyLobo>is there a hotkey for reorienting depots and such?
06:38<frosch123>also missed them, but didn't find an untuitive key to bind
06:38<frosch123>i wondered about mousewheel :)
06:39<@planetmaker>hm... :)
06:39<frosch123>but mousewheel does zoom
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06:40<frosch123>i also couldn't quite decide between a factorio/tetris-style single/dual key rotation, or 4 keys for the 4 directions
06:40<@peter1138>Not in TTDPatch!
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06:42<frosch123>maybe capslock would work :p
06:42<b_jonas>perhaps depots could have a drag and drop mode?
06:42<b_jonas>where you drag in the direction you want the depot to face
06:42<frosch123>sounds inconvenient
06:43<andythenorth>same as auto-track
06:43<b_jonas>yeah, a keybinding might be better
06:43<b_jonas>so make G rotate it by 90 degrees
06:43<frosch123>andythenorth: doesn't work with area dragging
06:44<frosch123>if you drag a rectangle of depots/roadstops, you cannot tell the orientation
06:44<frosch123>why G?
06:44<b_jonas>wait... drag a rectangle of depots? people do that?
06:44<frosch123>does any other software use G?
06:44<frosch123>they certainly do for roadstops
06:44<frosch123>i cannot quite remember currently, whether it worked for depots as well
06:44<andythenorth>I do it all the time
06:45<andythenorth>for roadstops
06:45<andythenorth>not depots
06:45<b_jonas>I don't insist on G, but G is already used by a dialog, so it could be a keybinding that depends on what tool or dialog is open
06:45<frosch123>but building multiple depots next to each other is common, just as is building long dpoets
06:45<b_jonas>ah, for road stations, sure, you could want to drag those
06:45<b_jonas>by the way, is there a reason why "buy land" can't be dragged?
06:45<b_jonas>or is that just a heritage from ttd like how in ttd you can't drag trees
06:45<frosch123>but not really
06:46<frosch123>the argument is that buy land is used by noone but trolls
06:46<b_jonas>I wanted to be able to drag buy land for reserving a place for airports (even though I know buy land is generally more expensive than diagonal rails, but in openttd diagonal rails can be autosloped by a city and buy land isn't)
06:47<b_jonas>frosch123: I'm using it in a single-player game against a town
06:47<frosch123>while the counter argument is, that it is needed for airports or so
06:47<b_jonas>ok... I see, but this was in a single player game
06:51<TomyLobo>frosch123 shift-1..4?
06:51<@Alberth>auto-depot <-- rotate the depot to the right orientation when there is only one option?
06:51<@Alberth>TomyLobo: shift is used for cost estimate
06:51<frosch123>Alberth: that would be massively annoying, if you do not want it in that direction :)
06:52<frosch123>Alberth: shift+mousebutton is, but not shift 1-4
06:53<b_jonas>but really, could we just reserve ASDFGHJK for tool-dependent functions, affecting the active tool or dialog? they're already sort of doing that
06:53<b_jonas>except for S which has a clash
06:53<b_jonas>no wait, it's D that has a clash
06:53<b_jonas>I'm not sure
06:53<frosch123>hmm, yeah, looks like only shift+f1.. is used, while plain numbers are still free
06:54<frosch123>b_jonas: you can, check your hotkey.cfg
06:54<frosch123>you can assign global hotkeys, and hotkeys specific to windows
06:54<b_jonas>frosch123: sure, but I can't just invent hotkeys to new functions there
06:54<@planetmaker>'a' should be bound to opening road toolbar :)
06:54<b_jonas>I could fix S or D
06:54<frosch123>planetmaker: a is rail, ctrl+a is road for me :p
06:55<@planetmaker>ah, true. Hm... :)
06:55<frosch123>just like d is depot for me, instead of the completely useless dynamite
06:55<b_jonas>what? how is dynamite useless?
06:55<b_jonas>it's the most frequent tool I use
06:55<b_jonas>boom boom!
06:55<b_jonas>I love destroying stuff
06:55<b_jonas>it's better than building
06:55<andythenorth>I should set up a hotkey for road toolbar
06:55<frosch123>i use ctrl+autorail/road to remove stuff
06:55<b_jonas>I have to build sometimes so I can destroy of course
06:55<andythenorth>I could never figure out how to set hotkeys
06:55<frosch123>what is dynamite for?
06:56<frosch123>how often do you remove stations or depots? certainly less often than building depots
06:56<andythenorth>I use d a lot :)
06:56<andythenorth>how to hotkey
06:56<frosch123>anyway, that's why hotkeys are personal
06:56<frosch123>oh, also the order gui
06:56<frosch123>the default hotkeys for order gui are also quite useless :p
06:57<andythenorth>does hotkey.cfg lose settings constantly like openttd.cfg?
06:57<frosch123>only if your name starts with A
06:58<@Alberth>oh dear :p
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06:58<b_jonas>which name? the name of the tycoon of the company?
06:59<frosch123>your cia id
06:59<frosch123>every person has a globally unique id
06:59<andythenorth>I can open road building with shift+A
06:59*andythenorth is amazed
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07:02<@peter1138>Okay... stations...
07:02<@peter1138>What's all this BaseStation and Station malarky?
07:02<frosch123>BaseStation is something with a StationId
07:02<@peter1138>Why is train_station in BaseStation, when bus_station and truck_station are in Station?
07:02<frosch123>a Station is something that transfers cargo
07:03<frosch123>Waypoints are BaseStation, but not Station
07:03<andythenorth>yeah, so hotkeys.cfg doesn’t work
07:03<andythenorth>I knew there was a reason I didn’t use it
07:03<frosch123>andythenorth: according to wiki you need to hold down Fn all the time on mac
07:03<@peter1138>frosch123, thanks.
07:04<andythenorth>I make changes
07:04<andythenorth>I save the changes
07:04<andythenorth>and they’re reverted
07:04<b_jonas>hold down Fn all the time to do what?
07:04<frosch123>andythenorth: ottd writes config files on exit
07:04<frosch123>and removes invalid syntax while doing so
07:06<andythenorth>yay, autoroad on GLOBAL+SHIFT+A
07:07<frosch123>yay, my nml compiles ogfx+rv again
07:08<frosch123>but regression fails
07:08<@planetmaker>what did you change, frosch123 ?
07:08<frosch123>grf output
07:09<frosch123>specifically the cache implementation
07:09<@planetmaker>ah. Well. Regressions may change...
07:09<@planetmaker>if the functionality is maintained :)
07:10<frosch123>nah, the problem is just that with dynamically typed languages, you cannot just hit compile
07:10<frosch123>and it will report all trivial syntax errors
07:10<frosch123>instead you have to execute all code paths :p
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07:22<argoneus>good morning train friends
07:25<andythenorth>ugh trains
07:27<andythenorth>wow, toddler #1 is playing 1x GUI
07:27<andythenorth>that is insanely small :O
07:29<@peter1138>[Config] -Fix: on some systems $_ was set to /usr/bin/make; filter for this (tnx peter1138)
07:29<argoneus>tnx peter1138
07:29<argoneus>you are my greatest ally
07:33<@peter1138>andythenorth, retina screen?
07:34<andythenorth>toddlers don’t get retina screens
07:34<@peter1138>That's alright then.
07:34<@planetmaker>they still have good natural retina ;)
07:39<b_jonas>wait, toddlers play ottd?
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, anyone notice this behaviour of amarok where when it starts up it doesn't set the volume to the correct value, but runs with 100% until you change the volume?
07:40<Wolf01>no, but I noticed it on ottd :P
07:40<b_jonas>I play on 1x gui too, but there's one part that causes problems with it: the small font text in vehicle listings showing the group name or earnings of the vehicle
07:41<andythenorth>get the real base set
07:41<@Alberth>b_jonas: black = good, red = bad
07:41<andythenorth>fonts are fine in real base set
07:42<b_jonas>Alberth: yes, and the earnings are shown in the vehicle info dialog too, so the real problem is the group names
07:42<b_jonas>which aren't shown anywhere
07:42<b_jonas>I also hate how the only way to put vehicles in groups is to drag-drop them to a group name line in a vehicle dialog
07:42<@peter1138>Ah yeah, that OpenGFX small font is terrible.
07:42<@Alberth>b_jonas: don't use groups, they're useless anyway :)
07:42<andythenorth>I keep thinking I’ll fix OpenGFX instead of whining
07:42<b_jonas>but I like groups!
07:43<@peter1138>In the real base set, the small font is all uppercase.
07:43<andythenorth>but the original base set
07:43<andythenorth>so tmwftlb probly
07:43<@peter1138>b_jonas, you could just set some font up...
07:44<b_jonas>peter1138: um, in the opengfx font, the small font is all uppercase too. it's just too small
07:44<b_jonas>but yes, I'll try changing the font
07:44<b_jonas>still, the gui for groups is not ideal
07:45<@peter1138>b_jonas, no it's not
07:45<andythenorth>it’s not terrible
07:45<@peter1138>OpenGFX is definitely mixed-case
07:45<b_jonas>not terrible, sure, but could be improved
07:46<b_jonas>peter1138: hmm. I could be misremembering
07:46<andythenorth>groups UI is bad, but not that bad
07:46<andythenorth>twiddling the UI won’t solve consist management
07:46<b_jonas>"consist management"? what's that?
07:46<andythenorth>it isn't
07:47<andythenorth>that’s the problem
07:47<@peter1138>It is autoreplace-for-trains, instead of autoreplace-for-engines-and-wagons
07:48<andythenorth>haven’t noticed the problem in my current game yet
07:48<andythenorth>but only 20 years in
07:49<Quatroking>when I clone a vehicle/train that's using shared orders, why does the new train now follow shared orders?
07:49<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, 3 years ago, i switched to rhythmbox
07:49<frosch123>that only sometimes sets the volume to 0
07:50<@peter1138>Quatroking, now or not?
07:50<@peter1138>You need to press ctrl while cloning.
07:50<@peter1138>Seems silly to me but that's how it is.
07:50<Quatroking>thanks, didn't know that one
07:50<Quatroking>yeah it is kinda silly since it does put the new train in the same group as the original
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like anyone ever reads tooltips
07:51<Quatroking>I haven't read the tooltip in ages lol
07:51<@peter1138>Switching it around might make more sense, share by default when cloning.
07:51<Quatroking>if the original train is using shared orders that is
07:52<@Alberth>I do use cloning without sharing a lot, different stations bringing the same type of cargo to the same destination
07:52<@peter1138>Quatroking, awkward, then you need to know whether the existing vehicle is shared or not, in advanced.
07:53<@peter1138>That's probably why it's like it is, even though it doesn't necessarily feel logical.
07:56<@Alberth>perhaps also to be more backwards compatible
07:57<frosch123>how about turning capslock into a ctrllock then? :p
07:57<b_jonas>frosch123: ugh... not unless you make that an option only
07:57<frosch123>we can also use scrollock
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07:58<b_jonas>for cloning, you could just have an option that makes sharing the orders the default when cloning (even if what you clone doesn't yet have shared orders), and not sharing needing control
07:58<frosch123>i believe there are some more keys without function
07:59<frosch123>b_jonas: do you know what magical thing shared orders are?
07:59<b_jonas>frosch123: I use them, but I'm not sure I know how magical they are
07:59<b_jonas>in particular, I clone vehicles sharing the order
07:59<frosch123>do you prefer to explain people why changing orders on one vehicle also affects orders on other vehicles? or would you rather let them repeat order modifications on multiple vehicles
07:59<b_jonas>and also share orders explicitly
08:00<b_jonas>frosch123: no, that's why it should be an _option_
08:00<b_jonas>an option you can toggle
08:00<b_jonas>don't make it the default
08:00<@Alberth>extend hotkeys to hotwidgets? :)
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08:22<TomyLobo>what's the best way to get industries to close?
08:22<@planetmaker>and don't service them
08:22<b_jonas>TomyLobo: don't transport to or from them
08:22<@planetmaker>and you might still be disappointed :)
08:23<b_jonas>TomyLobo: also if it's the last industry of the same kind, ottd might sometimes want to keep it open, so you may need to found another
08:23<TomyLobo>does it speed things up if i transport from them for a tiny bit of time?
08:23<TomyLobo>b_jonas it's a 4096x4096 map :)
08:23<b_jonas>and I think a few types of industries never close
08:23<TomyLobo>yeah, power plants
08:24<@planetmaker>they'll nover close
08:24<b_jonas>what type of industry is this?
08:24<b_jonas>wait, power plants don't close?
08:24<TomyLobo>but it's more about sawmills, coal mines, iron mines and forests
08:25<TomyLobo>b_jonas yeah, all my power plants so far have been immortal
08:25<b_jonas>there's also a cheat for closing industries, the magic bulldozer, but of course that's cheating
08:26<b_jonas>TomyLobo: I think coal mines and iron mines close just fine if yuo don't transport them
08:26<TomyLobo>b_jonas yeah
08:26<TomyLobo>a friend had the idea that you need to initially transport from them in order to start some kind of decay process
08:27<TomyLobo>is there something to that theory?
08:27<@planetmaker>write a NewGRF
08:27<b_jonas>would servicing all other industries at least a bit help that industry to close?
08:28<@Alberth>no, it's random with the default industries
08:28<@planetmaker>yes. It takes time. And closure is a probability to close per unit time ;)
08:29<@Alberth>not servicing is the best way to achieve closure
08:30<@Alberth>but at 4096x4096, what do you care? work around the industry
08:30<@Alberth>(that strategy also works at smaller maps :) )
08:33<@peter1138>16x16 maps!
08:33<@Alberth>1 industry, 1 town, and it's full
08:33<@peter1138>1048576 x 16
08:34<b_jonas>is it true that oil rigs never close?
08:34*Alberth gets lost
08:47<b_jonas>planetmaker: that doesn't help me much
08:48<@planetmaker>the industry descriptions tell you the behaviour of the default industries. Thus answer your questions
08:48<@planetmaker>but of course it requires reading and clicking
08:48<b_jonas>oh, you mean the individual industry pages
08:49<b_jonas>indeed, that says Power Stations don't shut down
08:50<b_jonas>thank you
08:57<Wolf01>yay UML is my new best friend, now that I found this plugin for phpstorm is really easy to write the diagrams, and it helps doing mockups of forms too
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09:12<@peter1138>Oh... hmm... our perlin implementation does linear interpolation :(
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>implement cubic splines?
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09:21<@peter1138>The algorithm only works because it does linear interpolation.
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds weird
09:23<@peter1138>Basically, it's not actually perlin./
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could just rip it out and completely rewrite it
09:31<Wolf01>reboot time
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09:33<@peter1138>It's also terrible at producing smoothness. Maybe I reimplemented it incorrectly, but... doubt it.
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09:36<@planetmaker>so... sprite alignment window now always quotes the alignment for the 4x zoom?
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the sprite aligner needs a zoom selector?
09:38<@peter1138>Quite likely.
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>also the sprite aligner needs a display of how much you actually changed it
09:39<@peter1138>planetmaker, yes. Could be changed. Previously it wasn't possible to align for 4x zoom.
09:39<@planetmaker>now it's not possible to align for 1x zoom
09:39<@planetmaker>except by 4x as many clicks
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>when i did aligning, the delta values were much more important than the absolute offsets
09:40<@peter1138>So add a zoom feature.
09:41<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, the absolute values are the values you put in, so...
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: they are not the values i put in my templates
09:42<@planetmaker>I agree, a delta value makes sense
09:42<@planetmaker>not in place of, but additionally
09:42<@peter1138>Well, then you need to remember the original value for the sprite, or maybe *every* sprite.
09:43<@peter1138>Sprite aligner changes the values directly, so there is no record of what it started out as.
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09:48<@peter1138>This algorithm is damn quick though.
09:49<Wolf01>damn, wrong virtual machine, now I have to wait until it installs the updates
09:52<@peter1138>Heh, on very smooth you can see the ridges that the linear algorithm causes.
09:54<Wolf01>damn virtual machines, xp deactivated its license
10:00<@peter1138>Hmm, that linearness is kinda beneficial -- it's much easier to find straight lines to build routes over...
10:00<@peter1138>But it completely stuffed up my methods ;(
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10:06<Quatroking>is there a way to make the text on the map bigger
10:06<Quatroking>especially this text:
10:06<@Alberth>only the map? no
10:07<Quatroking>any text that size really
10:07<@peter1138>Ew, OpenGFX small font smells.
10:07<@planetmaker>there's two ways
10:07<Quatroking>it's from opengfx?
10:08<Quatroking>eh, it's not much better on original_windows
10:08<@peter1138>Same size but all caps.
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10:11<Quatroking>thank you
10:11<@planetmaker>hm, TTD baseset is all caps. But I definitely cannot agree that it's better readable
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10:20<Quatroking>ooh, arial 10 looks nice
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10:22<@Alberth>it's bigger than the normal font :)
10:23<@Alberth>playing with full FIRS economy? you know there are also basic economies that are way smaller?
10:24<Quatroking>Yeah I know
10:24<@Alberth>ok, that's fine, just mentioning it, since the FIRS default is full economy, unfortunately
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10:33<Quatroking>now this is weird
10:34<Quatroking>I got a nice ferry line between two cities, and for some reason my ships take 3x as much time on the way back compared to the time it takes to get to the second dock
10:34<Quatroking>on open sea, distance is the same on both travels
10:35<Quatroking>the boats go super slow half-way and report 132km/h, even though they max out at 112km/h on the first trip
10:35<@Alberth>goofy newgrf, boats cannot go faster than 80km/h
10:36<Quatroking>I guess that's the problem then, they're nanaimo 70 hovercrafts from FISH
10:37<FLHerne>Alberth: Thought it was 127km/h, ~80mph?
10:37<Quatroking>ship speed is set to "ideal" in the parameters, the other two choices are "watching paint dry" and "cheating"
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds more likely, as the original hovercraft goes 112km/h
10:38<@Alberth>FLHerne: very well possible
10:38<frosch123>Alberth meant 0x80 km/h :)
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>Quatroking: try setting a speed limit in the orders
10:39<Quatroking>Eddi|zuHause, that fixed it
10:39<Quatroking>set the limits on 112 km/h
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10:41<Quatroking>uggghhh stupid group name character limit
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>don't know which is the worse bug. FISH setting wrong speed limits, or OpenTTD not correcting them
10:41<Quatroking>I want to use "Padham - Granbridge ferry service" but I can't :(
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that limit is terrible
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>goes it throw out limitation?
10:42<@peter1138>group names shouldn't be unique either
10:42<Quatroking>unique group names I can live with
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: especially not unique across vehicle types
10:43<Quatroking>well not unique across vehicle types, no
10:43<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, they're not.
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: someone should gravedig that post telling everybody that they're completely wrong
10:45<Quatroking>so what do you guys usually use for company names?
10:45<Quatroking>I just pull up some random crap and throw that in there, with the same face every time because I don't like the faces
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: remember when the sprite limit got raised by 1? :p
10:45<Quatroking>also all the white female faces look super botch
10:45<@peter1138>I never bother setting company name or face.
10:46<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, nope
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>Quatroking: i usually leave the default name of <Townname> Transport
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>makes it easier to distinguish different games later on
10:48<Quatroking>OpenTTD is C++ right?
10:48<frosch123>it doesn't use std::shared_ptr though
10:51<Quatroking>upping the group name length can't be that hard
10:51<frosch123>"can't be that hard" :)
10:52<Quatroking>I know, I know, silly sentence
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>famous last words :p
10:52<frosch123>there should be a dictionary ottd<->english
10:52<frosch123>"can't be that hard" means about "i don't know why it is there"
10:53<Quatroking>all I ever do is C# and Java and "can't be that hard" sure as hell got me loads of work multiple times
10:53<Wolf01>does anybody knows how to activate that remotefx thingy for hyper-v?
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10:54<Eddi|zuHause>once upon a time there was a limit in pixels
10:57<Quatroking>i wish programming was a whole lot easier
10:57<frosch123>the current limit is that commands limits texts to 128 byte or something, and the policy that limits should apply to number of unicode character brings it to 32 chars with 4 bytes per char
10:58<frosch123>no sentence, but maybe you can fix it
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that doesn't make any sense at all
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>a) you can easily check the real UTF8 length of the strings, and b) UTF8 may have more than 4 bytes
11:00<frosch123>depends on the utf 8 revision
11:00<Quatroking>the limit is 31 characters actually
11:00<@peter1138>Hmm, having my src folder be a symlink is annoying :S
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>Quatroking: there's always a "end string" character at the end
11:01<@peter1138>Our build system gets confused and thinks I'm building in a different tree, if the path is different.
11:01<Quatroking>Yeah, true
11:04<Quatroking>how does one apply patches?
11:04<Quatroking>I'm looking at this one
11:05<@peter1138>That's already in.
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>i doubt you're going to manage to apply that patch
11:06<frosch123> <- bjarni will help you
11:06<Quatroking>oh, if it's already in, then nevermind
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's actually not in...
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>something entirely different is in
11:07<Quatroking>blegh, recompiling
11:07<Quatroking>I know how to do that, but that means having to do work
11:07<frosch123>nah, you let compilers to that
11:07<frosch123>you don't do it yourself
11:09<Eddi|zuHause><Quatroking> i wish programming was a whole lot easier <-- that only helps you in the short term. if programming gets easier, the problems to be solved will get harder
11:10<Quatroking>Heh, I know
11:15<@peter1138>That's when you delegate.
11:19<LordAro>"<Eddi|zuHause> [...] b) UTF8 may have more than 4 bytes" wat
11:19<@peter1138>It was limited though.
11:19<@peter1138>Heck, I got it wrong originally and allowed 6-byte sequences.
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: technically, it could be up to 7 bytes
11:20<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, nope, that's invalid.
11:20<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: ...are you sure?
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, that's how i learned it 10 years ago
11:20<@peter1138>The encoding method allows it, but the specification prohibits it.
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>although that is probably out of any used range
11:21<@peter1138>"In November 2003, UTF-8 was restricted by RFC 3629 to end at U+10FFFF"
11:21<@peter1138>"huh]" what?
11:22<LordAro>the 6-byteness
11:22<LordAro>anyone for utf-48 ?
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>the technical maximum value would be "11111110 1XXXXXXX 1XXXXXXX 1XXXXXXX 1XXXXXXX 1XXXXXXX 1XXXXXXX 1XXXXXXX"
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>making it 7*7=49 bit
11:23<@peter1138>Still, 4 bytes is the maximum.
11:23<@Alberth>yeah, but the upper limit was reduced to keep it compatible with other encodings iirc
11:24<@peter1138>1114111 characters should be a enough for everyone!
11:24<@peter1138>- all the invalid ranges...
11:24<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: where did you get those extra bytes from?
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>i think i copy-pasted one too much :p
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>so it's actually 7*6
11:25<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: there is no technical maximum
11:25<frosch123>just the length prefix needs multiple bytes at some point
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, UTF8 is a giant hack that worked surprisingly well :p
11:26<frosch123>imho it's defnitely metter than utf16
11:26<LordAro>utf16 is a miserable compromise for sure
11:26<frosch123>imho it's definitely better than utf16
11:26<LordAro>utf8 or utf32 or go home
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>the interesting part of utf8 is that it works for ascii tools which have no clue about encodings
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>like... IRC
11:27<frosch123>and compilers
11:27<+michi_cc>The real problem with utf16 is that lots and lots of programmers believe it it ucs-2 instead.
11:27<frosch123>about everything that quotes strings with " or '
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>where UTF32 you need to change those to not barf on 0-bytes
11:28<LordAro>needs more snowman
11:28<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: technically, utf-8 is not ASCII compatible
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: not if your tool is so ancient that it uses the 9th bit as parit
11:29<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: IRC is not and never was ascii.
11:29<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: ASCII is only 7 bits
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11:30<@Alberth>hi andythenorth
11:30<LordAro>Alberth: yeah, but only insane (or embedded) systems use non 8-bit (addressable) bytes nowadays
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yes, and there have been like 100 concurrent extensions to 8 bits for decades
11:32<Wolf01>nice, I had to activate and update the old XP virtual machine to be able to install RailKing model railroad simulation, then move the installed folder to a network share and use it from this pc
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11:36<@Alberth>Eddi, yep most ascii tools are actually very much broken in accepting way too much :)
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>one person's "broken" is another person's "working perfectly" :p
11:42<@Alberth>maybe we have much fewer ascii tools than we think :)
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11:53<@peter1138>planetmaker, < feel free to finish that off
11:56<TomyLobo>is there any disadvantage to only having 1 tile of a farm covered vs the whole thing?
11:57<@Alberth>except the farm feeling less connected? :)
11:57<argoneus>any idea who make this?
11:57<argoneus>I want to make a donation
11:58<@peter1138>I guess "Hurkenrahl"?
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: the OpenMSX project?
11:58<argoneus>no, this track in general
11:58<TomyLobo>on a related note, my empire:,%202034-08-11.png
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11:59<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: look in the credits?
11:59<argoneus>Tisou Blomberg
11:59<@peter1138>What happened to all the trees...
11:59<TomyLobo>the thing is, i have a station with 2 farms, one having 729 grain, the other having 99 grain
11:59<TomyLobo>peter1138 X
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>that looks truely horrible...
12:00<@Alberth>not to mention, VERY flat :)
12:00<@peter1138>There's a bank in the middle of nowhere...
12:00<@peter1138>Oh, you destroyed a town.
12:01<TomyLobo>yeah i couldnt tear down the bank
12:01<@peter1138>Can't you destroy it with the magic bulldozer?
12:01<TomyLobo>that would be cheating, no?
12:01<TomyLobo>besides, it's not in the way
12:01<@peter1138>You're playing a flat world and removing towns, I don't think you need to worry about enabling cheats.
12:01<TomyLobo>it's a flat part of the world
12:02<TomyLobo>also i invested enough money into turning that town into flatness :)
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>for no reason at all...
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>just set number of towns to 1 on world generation, if you have no intention of serving them
12:04<TomyLobo>then the industry generator will hang :)
12:04<@peter1138>You need towns for industries to appear.
12:04<TomyLobo>also i do serve a town
12:04<TomyLobo>with shittons of cargo
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>you need to enable more than one industry per town, of course :p
12:05<TomyLobo>then it might work
12:07*peter1138 ponders increasing town separation.
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12:10<Eddi|zuHause>there was a patch somewhere
12:11<@peter1138>Well, it's simple, just hard-coded.
12:20<andythenorth>that game looks bad
12:21<andythenorth>is it 32bpp?
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12:24<@peter1138>Looks like zBase, yes.
12:25<andythenorth>big job, an entire base set
12:25<andythenorth>that’s all I’m saying
12:25<andythenorth>I wouldn’t take it on
12:25<@peter1138>Look all those signals.
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12:38<andythenorth>pikka tram tracks are nicer than base set
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>sure those are by pikka?
12:39<@peter1138>Finescale is Pikka's
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27045 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-10-26 17:46:16 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>irish - 83 changes by tem
13:46<@DorpsGek>gaelic - 1 changes by GunChleoc
13:46<@DorpsGek>spanish - 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
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13:56<Eddi|zuHause>why the hell is it called "free antivirus" if it says "your license run out 2 years ago. buy one now!
13:59<@Alberth>free doesn't mean free of advertising, apparently
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>but it refuses to update and stuff
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14:14<@peter1138>Problem with landscape generators is there's no set of settings that consistently produce good maps :S
14:14<Quatroking>is it possible to export my newgrf list along with parameters?
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, save it as a preset
14:15<Quatroking>and then where do I find this preset on my drive
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>in the openttd.cfg
14:24<frosch123>peter1138: preview! :p
14:24<@peter1138>Yes please!
14:24<@peter1138>My standalone code doesn't have a UI at all...
14:25<@peter1138>Hmm, 4 perlin maps and 1 fault map
14:28<@peter1138>Shame our algorithm in TGP is crap :S
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14:28<@peter1138>Cos it's good for speed.
14:32<frosch123>how long does your algorithm take?
14:32<@peter1138>Noticably longer.
14:33<frosch123>that's bad for previews
14:33<andythenorth>peter1138: ship pre-made heightmaps
14:33<andythenorth>loads of them :P
14:33<frosch123>i thought when skipping all the industry and town and stuff, height previews would be somewaht instant
14:34<frosch123>andythenorth: you mean like original mapgen? :p
14:34<andythenorth>maybe :P
14:34<andythenorth>good vs. random
14:34<Xaroth|Work>use idle CPU time to generate new maps, aka, pre-generate them while at the main menu etc: P
14:34<Xaroth|Work>on the background
14:34<Xaroth|Work>instant-ready maps \o/
14:34<frosch123>hmm, worms2 generated 5 maps, and then let you pick one
14:35<Xaroth|Work>then create a p2p network so clients can distribute their work to other clients
14:35<@peter1138>That's because our algorithm... fast?
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14:38<@peter1138>512x512 map taking 3.3 seconds
14:38<frosch123>ah, that doesn't sound too bad
14:39<frosch123>it sounded like minutes :p
14:39<@peter1138>Well, let's try 4096x4096
14:45<frosch123>if it's linear in time, it will take 3 minutes
14:45<frosch123>if qudratic, it will take 3 hours
14:47<@peter1138>And if it takes 7m58?
14:47<@peter1138>That's a bit much, let alone previews.
14:48<frosch123>if you have periodic noise, there are some tricks to speed stuff up
14:48<frosch123>instead of recomputing it everywhere
14:49<andythenorth>I usually generate about 30 maps before finding a viable one
14:49<andythenorth>@calc 8*30
14:49<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 240
14:49<andythenorth>just 4 hours :D
14:49<@peter1138>Took OTTD 1 minute to make a usable game from that heightmap, heh.
14:49<frosch123>andythenorth: well, blame those who play on 4kx4k :p
14:50<andythenorth>just 2 mins for me
14:50<andythenorth>more than 512 is nuts
14:50<frosch123>we should add some achievement mode
14:51<frosch123>you may only start a new map after filling at least 10% of the previous one
14:54<@peter1138>Testing with the current algorithmmm: 5.5 seconds
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>like TF only allows you to start in 1900 or 1950 if you reached those dates from a game that you started in 1850?
14:58<@peter1138>Urgh,, 4000 towns...
14:58<frosch123>ah, true, that way it would be more rewarding
14:58<frosch123>i thought more of the punishing method :p
14:58<frosch123>if you create a 4kx4k map, you have to register a new account before ever starting a new game
14:59<andythenorth>pay €10
14:59<andythenorth>most of the casual games are farming people who are idiots, or suffer compulsive behaviour
15:00<andythenorth>apparently it’s 1% of players spending 99% of money or such
15:00<andythenorth>we should impose same
15:00<andythenorth>€10 / month for MHL > 32
15:00<frosch123>yeah, 1€ for 1000 track pieces
15:00<frosch123>1€ fo 100 signals
15:00<andythenorth>€10 / month for each 512 increment in map size
15:00<andythenorth>€10 / month to remove newgrf limit
15:04<Quatroking>wasn't it possible to add/remove newgrf's in existing savegames?
15:04<andythenorth>it is possible
15:05<andythenorth>it tends to scribble all over memory
15:05<Quatroking>ah, found out how
15:06<Quatroking>andythenorth, LIVING ON THE EDGEEEE
15:08*andythenorth living on a prayer
15:08<andythenorth>halfway there
15:10<@peter1138>LIVIN IN AMERICAH
15:10<andythenorth>Living in a box
15:11<Quatroking>living in a van DOWN BY THE RIVER
15:11<andythenorth>living on my own
15:12<@peter1138>real 0m0.153s
15:12<@peter1138>Why so fast :S
15:12<TomyLobo> i hope this works in browsers other than mine :)
15:13<@peter1138>If it's meant to be totally white, yes.
15:13<TomyLobo>it works in Iron for me
15:13<@peter1138>What is Iron?
15:13<TomyLobo>not so much in firefox :/
15:13<TomyLobo>Iron is Chrome without the bullshit
15:14<@peter1138>Loading slowly in Chromium.
15:14<TomyLobo>you're on my upstream :)
15:14<@peter1138>The slideshow is finished before it loads the images.
15:14<TomyLobo>well, it repeats
15:14<frosch123>"animation: slideshow 25s linear infinite" <- sounds like a netscape feature from the 90s
15:14<FLHerne>TomyLobo: Whatever it's supposed to do, it doesn't in FF33 here
15:14<TomyLobo>frosch123 nope, css3
15:14<TomyLobo>frosch123 90s, but still nope :)
15:15<@peter1138>Seems to stay on 1 image for a very long time.
15:15<TomyLobo>peter1138for 57% of the animation, in fact
15:15<TomyLobo>i calculated the timings from the dates
15:16<TomyLobo>i dont have any saves of that between 1996 and 2124, so there's that gap
15:16<@peter1138>The image isn't centered exactly the same.
15:16<@peter1138>Or or looks like it.
15:16<@peter1138>Also, transparency mode sucks for this sort of thing.
15:17<@peter1138>As does zBase.
15:17<@peter1138>But hey.
15:17<@peter1138>Must be some way to automatically create a screenshot at a specified location once a year...
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15:22<@peter1138>Hmm, I guess TGP is incapable of very low frequencies.
15:26<@peter1138>Hmm, octaves are inverted.
15:27<@peter1138>In perlin, more octaves means more fine detail. In TGP, move octaves means large features.
15:30<TomyLobo>peter1138 i centered on the city using the location button
15:31<TomyLobo>for each screenshot
15:31<TomyLobo>if that's still off-center, it isnt my fault :P
15:32<@peter1138>turn of smooth viewport scrolling :p
15:32<TomyLobo>just because it's buggy? :P
15:33<@peter1138>nah the way it works means it never quite reaches exactly the same place
15:34<TomyLobo>if distance < 1px, set position to target?
15:35<TomyLobo>buggy or not, i love that feature
15:35<TomyLobo>much less disorienting than insta scroll
15:38<TomyLobo>talking about scrolling... can you have an option to not lock the mouse in place while scrolling? that'd be especially nice with inverted scroling
15:38<TomyLobo>that way you basically push the map around with the mouse
15:38<@peter1138>It works until you have some windows open...
15:38<TomyLobo>add a hand cursor and you have google maps :)
15:39<TomyLobo>peter1138 capture all mouse input to the scrolling routie until rmb is released then
15:40<andythenorth>OS X port has that map lock feature
15:40<andythenorth>it’s intermittent
15:40<andythenorth>and probably unintended
15:40<TomyLobo>"unintended feature" is such a nice word for bug :)
15:41<TomyLobo>I'm not on osx btw, so i cant tell what you mean
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16:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r27046 trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (2014-10-26 20:01:36 UTC)
16:01<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5812]: Don't require double-press from non-dead console hotkeys.
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17:07<Eddi|zuHause>"Darth Alekseyevich Vader, a former electrician and official candidate in Ukraine's parliamentary elections, [was] denied his ability to vote after he refused to remove his mask."
17:11<Quatroking>oh hey, the AI I'm playing against removed his train station after I bought exclusive transport rights to a city
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17:12<@peter1138>Seems excessive.
17:13<Quatroking>I wonder if the fact that I boosted the industry's output by at least 400% and actually processed all the output
17:13<Quatroking>has something to do with it
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>i doubt it
17:14<Quatroking>yeah the AI probably just removed it because the station didn't receive goods for a long time
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>no AI will have code like: "whoa, this guy is so good, i withdraw from his sphere of influence"
17:15<@planetmaker>moin fjb
17:15<Quatroking>alpha as fuggggg
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17:35<Quatroking>lookin' fine:
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17:44<Quatroking>is there a reason why ottd never got the ability to rotate the map?
17:45<NGC3982>Why do i have in my head that it used to be.
17:45<Quatroking>NGC3982, RCT and RCT2 both support it
17:46<NGC3982>Ah, that should be it.
17:46<@peter1138>Quatroking, cos it would need many more sprites drawn.
17:46<@peter1138>Which is pretty impossible for the original graphics.
17:46<Quatroking>Couldn't you just, not rotate the sprites
17:47<Quatroking>other than the roads and stations and rails
17:47<@peter1138>That would be rather glitchy.
17:47<Quatroking>oh wait, not all industry is square-shaped is it
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17:48<@peter1138>Actually the non-square random-parts industries are less of a problem.
17:49<frosch123>i think the only game i remember supporting that type of rotation was sc2
17:49<frosch123>and it was hell of confusing
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17:51<NGC3982>Hehe, i thought you talked about StarCraft 2.
17:51<frosch123>nah, modern games have smooth rotation
17:52<frosch123>but whenever i used that instant rotation in sc2k, i wouldn't know what i wanted to do
17:52<frosch123>so effectively i never used it
17:52<NGC3982>Does removing the planted land around farms affect the production?
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, every time you rotate the map in sim city, you basically look at a completely new city
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17:56<@planetmaker>yeah... most industries need new rotated sprites. And to reduce confusion, also all houses
17:56<@planetmaker>well. And airports and stations
17:57<@Rubidium>the default stations are fairly okay rotation wise ;)
17:57<frosch123>yes, but even it would be done, i don't think the result would turn out that nice, or even useful
17:57<@Rubidium>except, obviously, the stations for aircraft
17:58<frosch123>argueably i never played rct
17:58<frosch123>but all other isometric games either cannot rotate, or it was so confusing that i did not use it
17:58<@planetmaker>I've no clue... I don't remember any such game :)
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>i don't even remember if aoe had rotation
17:59<frosch123>i am quite sure aoe2 didn't
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>but definitely the zoo-tycoon type games did
18:01<NGC3982>Nope, it doesn't.
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, sc2k had some "fake" rotation where the sprites were just flipped
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19:13<Sacro>when you click fast forward, the _ blinks dead fast
19:13<argoneus>good night train friends
19:18<Sacro>@seen Pikka
19:18<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Pikka was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 10 hours, 43 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <Pikka> it's pretty much six of one and half a dozen of the other.
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---Logclosed Mon Oct 27 00:00:30 2014