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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-10-29

---Logopened Wed Oct 29 00:00:33 2014
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00:04<supermop_>are you not tempted to switch sun to north down her
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01:31<supermop_>do you use white light or slightly warmer?
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05:15<argoneus>good morning train friends
05:20<supermop>yo
05:26<@planetmaker>hi
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05:26<@planetmaker>supermop, rendering by V: I think he renders the whole multi-tile industry as one and only then has nmlc cut it into the pieces as needed for each individual tile
05:29<@peter1138>Dom't do that :)
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05:30<@planetmaker>peter1138, why not?
05:30<@peter1138>Lack of layout variety.
05:30<@planetmaker>if I have a 96px wide building (1x2 tiles), I draw the left 64px on tile 1 and the last 32px on tile2
05:31<@planetmaker>well, that's another thing, yes
05:31<@planetmaker>but generally rendering a multi-tile thing and only cutting sprites for each tile is a nice way to do.
05:32<@peter1138>Ah, multo-tile houses are different.
05:32<@planetmaker>not all of his industries can be modularized
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05:32<@planetmaker>some could
05:33<supermop>modelling pubs now
05:34<supermop>or 'hotels' as they are all called in this town
05:35<@peter1138>planetmaker, only because of the way they're drawn :)
05:36<supermop>planetmaker: i'm not too worried about rendering the whole house and cutting it up, but more juggling what to put on a tile
05:36<@planetmaker>peter1138, also the way they work. Thinking of the circular conveyor belt thingy. No way to really break it down without making it a totally different one
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>adding a segment here or there. may make animation tricky, though
05:37<@peter1138>That boils down to the same thing. They can't be modular because they weren't designed as modular.
05:37<@planetmaker>yes, that makes the animation much more a pain :)
05:38<@planetmaker>and yeti yet much bigger :P
05:38<supermop>i dont care too much about whether to do 2 or 3 houses per tile from a scale consideration, more is it more boring to have fewer houses on the tile, or more boring to have less extra stuff, like gardens and alleyways
05:39<@planetmaker>not sure that too many houses per tile look too well from our distorted scale POV
05:39<@planetmaker>thus IMHO go for fewer houses with more variations
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>i agree
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>although i generally found the length of the example houses weird... i've never ssen a layout like this, the long side facing away from the street
05:42<supermop>i think it is an odd melbourn thing - when ive been to other parts of australia they look more 'regular'
05:42<supermop>maybe that makes it a BAD DESIGN CHOICE tm
05:43<supermop>but they have lots of these row houses that are short and narrow, but very deep
05:44<supermop>the ones i've paced out are typically 8x24 paces
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, if that's how it is, make it...
05:44<supermop>well sometimes reality is not the best prototype, but i'll see how it goes
05:45<supermop>you may be on to something though - perhaps distorting their proportions would help
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>just be aware that making houses larger than 1x1 tile will make city construction more difficult
05:45<supermop>so they are still long, but only 1:2 or 1:1.5
05:45<supermop>yeah that is what i am afraid of
05:46<supermop>espescially as i usually play with 'better roads'
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>but also, it may provide a new look to cities
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>just make sure you have enough 1x1 houses as "filling"
05:46<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the long side facing away from the street is not too uncommon
05:47<@planetmaker>and I agree. Most houses in a house set probably should be 1x1 houses
05:47<supermop>at 4x zoom, a tile is 128px wide?
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>the left corner and the right corner have a distance of 256px
05:49<supermop>yeah, i wonder if separating the gardens etc to a separate tile would be best, so sometimes you could have a long lot, but in tight spaces just the houses alone will fit
05:49<supermop>ok thanks
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i think in SC4 houses worked like that
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>"Twitch wants to forbid people streaming in underwear or naked"
05:56<supermop>if i wear jeans with nothing underneath, does that count as underwear
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05:59<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that reminds me of news that some secret service agents complained about unwanted exposure to nude pictures when they hacked and "reviewed" skype video chats :P
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: or the other news story about how police copies naked pictures from confiscated cell phones and then trade them amongst each other?
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes i wonder why there is so much fuzz about non-pornographic nakedness...
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>like that guy who lost at the european court who wanted to walk naked across britain.
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>i somehow doubt that would even have been on trial in germany at all...
06:08<@planetmaker>you don't understand that, you're from the East ;) Actually I think it might have been here, too, but not entirely sure
06:09<@planetmaker>The further West you go, the more prudish it gets, or so. I think
06:10<supermop>yes
06:10<supermop>much much worse in the us
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>maybe. but there was a piece on ARTE recently where they made a trip to munich and the french part of the group was basically shocked about how they encountered people with no clothes on in the middle of the city
06:11<supermop>even though in much of the us, much public nudity is actually legal, you still are likely to be arrested for it
06:11<@planetmaker>well, the US are ridiculous. We all know that ;)
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>that's what you get when a country is founded by religious fanatics
06:11<@planetmaker>he, in the how-is-it-called-garden in the city centre, Eddi|zuHause ?
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>there's a reason we drove those people out :p
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yeah
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06:12<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but maybe munich doesn't really count as "west" :p
06:12<@planetmaker>well, I first had to move to Jena to actually see my first official nude bathing lake
06:13<@planetmaker>well, half of it. The other half not
06:13<@planetmaker>still weired if you go swimming on Sunday afternoon and you run accross your lecturer naked ;)
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the nudism scene really exploded in east germany
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>although i think that went back a bit after 1990
06:13<@planetmaker>likely, yes
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>but as far as i've seen, most other countries do not have this legal split between nakedness and sexuality as is common in germany
06:24<@planetmaker>I was not aware that we do?
06:25<@planetmaker>there's "Erregung öffentlichen Ärgernisses". - Du musst erst beweisen, dass Du öffentlich erregt worden bist ;) (sorry, can't exactly translate that)
06:26<@planetmaker>supermop, you houses cover the whole tile(s). Is it supposed to be that tightly packed?
06:28<supermop>yes, but smaller houses farther from city should have space on the sides as well
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it might not follow from the letter of the law, but it's definitely in the culture
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06:46<@peter1138>...
06:48<@peter1138>Hurr, pulseaudio got in a funny state, caused ottd to crash on start :S
06:49<b_jonas>pulseaudio is always in a funny state
06:49<b_jonas>that's the norm
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>does "uninstalled" count as a funny state?
07:11<Pikka>good old Nakagin Capsule Tower, supermop :)
07:11<supermop>drew that a looong time ago
07:11<Pikka>lol
07:12<supermop>but thats my totem for TT i guess
07:12<supermop>brb
07:12<Pikka>I just wrote about it a bit in a design 101 university assignment. :)
07:12<Pikka>warmer, btw, to answer your earlier question.
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07:17<FUZxxl>Hello!
07:17<FUZxxl>I have a question about pathfinding.
07:18<@planetmaker>just ask
07:19<FUZxxl>I have made a few stations and pathfinding behaves weirdly around them.
07:19<FUZxxl>Let me make a screenshot of one of these stations.
07:21<FUZxxl>http://fuz.su/~fuz/pic/station.png
07:22<FUZxxl>Sometimes, when a train tries to leave the station and the direction in which it wants to leave is occupied by another train, it instead makes a sharp bend and enters the other platform
07:22<FUZxxl>which is totally pointless
07:22<FUZxxl>This sometimes causes lockups that are annoying to fix.
07:22<FUZxxl>Is there a solution for this problem? Is my signalling wrong?
07:23<Progman>you can disable 90deg turns in the settings
07:23<FUZxxl>Progman: yeah, I could, but I believe this is not a very good fix.
07:23<@planetmaker>the signaling looks ok. And it brings it a bit closer to the destination ;). And disable 90° turns to avoid it
07:23<FUZxxl>planetmaker: So there is no real solution?
07:23<@planetmaker>90° turns are ugly anyway :P. No, none I know
07:24<Progman>different signals I guess
07:24<@planetmaker>use path signals alternatively
07:24<FUZxxl>k
07:24<Progman>like path signals or presignal thingy...
07:24<@planetmaker>not sure it would change the situation though
07:25<FUZxxl>ok
07:25<FUZxxl>Would it help prohibiting trains from changing directions while halting?
07:26<Progman>disabling 90deg turns will help
07:26<FUZxxl>ok
07:26<@peter1138>FUZxxl, pre-signals will never work in that situation (two-way station)
07:27<Progman>or maybe remove the cross tracks entirely so one platform is always for one direction
07:27<@peter1138>Just use path signals.
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07:32<@peter1138>You should probably forget about using pre-signals at all, they're not useful for normal stuff since path signals arrived.
07:33<supermop>ok
07:33<b_jonas>I'd like a combination (path-based pre-signals)
07:34<supermop>Pikka: i spent quite a bit of time on the metabolists in architecture school myself
07:35<supermop>im sure ive mentioned this before, but back in '94, the first time i had a company survive long enough to see them pop up in game,
07:36<supermop>i was really fascinated by the design - then blown away a few years later when i found it was a real building
07:36<FUZxxl>peter1138: Path signals have the problem that a train chooses a platform when both are occupied,
07:36<supermop>so TTO turned me on to the metabolists,
07:36<FUZxxl>thus blocking the intersection.
07:36<Pikka>good stuff :)
07:36<FUZxxl>I actually prefer pre-signals right now..
07:36<@peter1138>FUZxxl, wrong.
07:36*Pikka bbatsomepoint
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07:37<supermop>and then getting excited about seeing the real thing in 2004 got me interested in digging TT back out again!
07:37<@peter1138>FUZxxl, *pre-signals* have exactly that problem. path-signals don't have the problem.
07:37<@peter1138>FUZxxl, if your station is blocking with path-signals, you are not placing path-signals correctlyh.
07:41<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/pathsignalstation.png < correct path-signal placement.
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07:43<b_jonas>I've had some funny trouble with singals recently... what was it exactly?
07:43<@peter1138>b_jonas, sorry my crystal ball is a bit dusty
07:43<b_jonas>I think I had two a line from two big coal mines to a power station, and a train went to the wrong coal mine and couldn't get out
07:43<b_jonas>I don't remember how I did that
07:44<@peter1138>That doesn't sound like a signalling issue.
07:45<FUZxxl>peter1138: Okay. Let me try with path signals.
07:45<b_jonas>probably more like a railway shape issue, not with the signals
07:47<b_jonas>I think the problem was that the only way for the train to get out from where it was stuck was to enter the wrong coal mine station, reverse there, then go almost to the power statoin where it can turn, and then go to the right station,
07:48<b_jonas>and I think the pathfinder didn't realize this, and because I built the entry to the coal mine station wrong, it got stuck there with another train
07:50<b_jonas>and I think part of the problem was that it was a double line, but some of the platforms in the station weren't connected to both lines
07:50<@peter1138>Bah, scummvm needs a 4x option
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08:13<FUZxxl>How do I close all windows in OpenTTD?
08:14<@peter1138>Press delete
08:15<FUZxxl>peter1138: thank you.
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08:18<argoneus>how do I close the last window opened?
08:18<argoneus> :(
08:18<@planetmaker>press delete
08:19<argoneus>is delete the solution to all problems?
08:21<V453000>alt Q
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08:50<@planetmaker>argoneus, you phrased your question badly ;). First sticky all others
08:50<argoneus>planetmaker: how did I phrase it badly?
08:51<argoneus>:<
08:55<@planetmaker>you wanted to ask a slightly different question (but didn't): "How can I close *only* the last window?".
08:58<V453000>twas obvious
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>well, click the X :p
09:04<V453000>hotkeyzzzz Eddi
09:06<argoneus>I wish there were hotkeys for everything
09:07<argoneus>keyboard is much faster than mouse
09:07<@peter1138>Safe?
09:07<argoneus>Safe?
09:07<@peter1138>Oh damn, forgot I had scrolled back :-)
09:07<@peter1138>V453000, thanks, you made me find a variable that I'd marked as unsafe when it's (probably) not :P
09:13<@planetmaker>argoneus, you know hotkeys.cfg, yes?
09:14<argoneus>planetmaker: n-no?
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09:22<supermop>good night
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10:18<FUZxxl>I hate timetables.
10:18<FUZxxl>It's so complicated to get them right.
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10:18<FUZxxl>I'm trying for the third time now and the busses still travel in small groups.
10:18<FUZxxl>s/small/medium sized/
10:18<@planetmaker>use auto-separation then
10:19<@planetmaker>it's supposed to work. somehow
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10:28<@peter1138>Haha
10:28<@peter1138>Supposed to work, nice :)
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10:33<@planetmaker>I never quite figured how it works
10:33<@planetmaker>or too tedious to setup for me. Or both :)
10:40<FUZxxl>planetmaker: auto-separation?
10:40<FUZxxl>Is there documentation?
10:41<@planetmaker>yes... in the tooltip for timetables
10:41<@planetmaker>maybe in the wiki
10:41<FUZxxl>There are tooltips?!
10:47<lastmikoi>:D
10:49<@planetmaker>FUZxxl, until 1.4.x their hover time is a bit too long (2 seconds) by default. you can reduce it to one or to right click
10:49<@planetmaker>nightlies reduced that time to 250msec
10:49<@planetmaker>(default value that is)
10:51<FUZxxl>planetmaker: What place am I supposed to hover over?
10:53<@planetmaker>timetable button maybe? dunno
10:53<@planetmaker>there is a string which explains it :D
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10:59<@planetmaker>^ and that I know from translations
11:01<argoneus>auto separation doesn't really work when you have a) many vehicles b) breakdowns
11:03<FUZxxl>k
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11:34<Jinassi>nabend, there someone on redddit that would like to play on jailbroken ipad, do you peeps/devs/hackers have any suggestions?
11:35<@peter1138>Smash it.
11:38<@planetmaker>lol
11:38<Jinassi>haha good one
11:38<@planetmaker>Jinassi, not sure there exist any openttd version fit for iOS
11:38<@planetmaker>at least I'm not aware of a current one
11:38<Jinassi>yep, i saw they don't allow opensource
11:39<@planetmaker>there likely is (again) a chinese guy who re-labeled it and sells it
11:39<@planetmaker>and violates the license by not making it open source
11:39<Jinassi>even response from another one said it was removed game from appstore a while ago
11:39<@planetmaker>yes
11:40<Jinassi>typos, not used to new/used laptop
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11:40<Jinassi>well thanks guys
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11:41<@planetmaker>well, no worries
11:42<@planetmaker>on the other hand: no-one would mind, if it was created and distributed via some 3rd-party store. But I guess apple doesn't allow other stores than its own without jailbreak
11:43<blathijs>Jinassi: Wait, are you saying apple doesn't allow open-source apps in their appstore? I must have misunderstood...
11:43<Jinassi>https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/2kofot/could_someone_make_a_openttd_port_for_jailbroken/
11:43<Jinassi>better to read
11:44<@planetmaker>blathijs, yes, that's what he (rightfully) says
11:44<Jinassi>words from submitter, not my own, have not read their disclaimer
11:44<@planetmaker>the TOS of its AppStore exclude upload of GPL applications (as they're an additional restriction disallowed by GPL)
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11:45<Jinassi>yet their own OS is a fork from linux, or am i wrong?
11:46<blathijs>planetmaker: Right, messy...
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11:46<@planetmaker>you're wrong ;)
11:46<blathijs>Jinassi: OSX is BSD-based, not Linux
11:46<@planetmaker>^^
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11:47<@planetmaker>it's funny to find all those BSD references in the man pages :)
11:47<blathijs>(perhaps because BSD does _not_ use the GPL, allowing Apple to keep their code closed ;-p)
11:47<@planetmaker>well, on the other hand, bigger parts of the core OS *are* GPL
11:47<@planetmaker>thinking of Darwin
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27051 trunk/src/lang/irish.txt (2014-10-29 17:45:14 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>irish - 15 changes by tem
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14:19<andythenorth>hmm
14:19<andythenorth>the MHL thread - idea about ‘cities not on mountaintops’ is probably good
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14:19<andythenorth>cities should go more down in valleys and such mostly
14:19<@planetmaker>yes
14:20<andythenorth>also rivers
14:20<@planetmaker>well.... they naturally flow downward. They need no further restriction
14:20<andythenorth>did we years ago fix towns near sea?
14:20<andythenorth>I seem to remember they avoided coasts, and now they don't
14:20<andythenorth>but might be inventing that
14:21<andythenorth>planetmaker: the suggestion was towns preferring rivers btw ;)
14:21<andythenorth>rather than ‘rivers not on mountaintops'
14:21<@planetmaker>iirc when a random place is chosen and it's water, the nearest coast tile is searched (within a few tiles, dunno, maybe 10, 20)
14:21<@planetmaker>oh, towns preferring rivers. got that wrong :)
14:21<@planetmaker>that certainly does not happen currently
14:21<@planetmaker>would actually make sense same with coast
14:22<andythenorth>I have quite a lot of nice coastal towns in my current game
14:22<andythenorth>I’m sure I was whining about that ~5 years ago though
14:23<@planetmaker>maybe this search for nearby coast tiles was added then. can be :)
14:23*andythenorth takes a huge screenshot
14:23<andythenorth>wonder how long
14:23<@Alberth>15 feet
14:24<andythenorth>I think that’s about right
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14:25<andythenorth>Alberth: actually closer to 24 feet at 1x
14:25<andythenorth>512x512 map, 24 feet along longest edge
14:25<andythenorth>imagine that as a RL model train :O
14:25<@Alberth>biiggg table
14:26<andythenorth>none of you want to see the 65MB screenshot of my game :(
14:26<@peter1138>If you have a lot of water, then you will get more coastal towns, I guess,.
14:26<andythenorth>it’s the hm4.png
14:27<@Alberth>make a puzzle out of it?
14:27<@peter1138>Yeah...
14:28<andythenorth>I dunno, it’s just a nice map https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6790/Puddlebury%20Transport,%2027-08-1954.png
14:29<andythenorth>the big sweeping expanse of water is useful for routing ships
14:29<andythenorth>and looks right
14:29<andythenorth>there are loads of nicely place towns
14:29<andythenorth>and empty mountains which make for challenging routes
14:30<andythenorth>I still mostly ignored the rivers for transport, even though they are perfectly placed
14:30<andythenorth>because…docks innit
14:30<@peter1138>[640156.371174] Out of memory: Kill process 26375 (iceweasel) score 411 or sacrifice child
14:30<@peter1138>haha
14:30<andythenorth>your heightmap :P
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14:34<@Alberth>ieks so much bad hills
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>you have a highlight on "sacrifice child"?
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>:p
14:37<@peter1138>Hmm, I can't view it :S
14:38<andythenorth>Alberth: it’s a lovely map to play ;)
14:39<@Alberth>for a watery game, I can imagine it is :)
14:39<andythenorth>the towns all located sensibly
14:39<andythenorth>and the industry clusters worked
14:39<andythenorth>I had to generate the map about 60 times mind
14:39<V453000>andythenerdth doesnt use trains
14:39<V453000>water is ez
14:40<andythenorth>very hard work
14:40<andythenorth>clicking ‘clone’ on all those ships
14:40<andythenorth>wear and tear on my finger
14:40<V453000>XD
14:40<@peter1138>Heh, finally loaded it.
14:40<@peter1138>Ahh, all those lovely hills :-)
14:41<andythenorth>you should put it on bananarams
14:41<@peter1138>andythenorth, probably would've been more efficient to post the savegame :-)
14:41<andythenorth>peter1138: reloaded newgrfs, unreleased newgrfs, loads of warnings about naught newgrfs breaking the game :P
14:41<andythenorth>naughty *
14:41<@peter1138>Hah
14:41<@peter1138>No space left on device. Oops.
14:42<@peter1138>rootfs 30628368 29049440 44 100% /
14:42<@peter1138>Yeah, that's not good lol
14:42<andythenorth>when it gets to 110% that’s interesting
14:42<andythenorth>then you wonder where the fuck it got the 10% from
14:42<andythenorth>we’ve had servers do that
14:43<@Alberth>super users :)
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>i've been living on 20GB for / since i started using linux
14:43<@peter1138>Hmm, I ought to sort out my 3TB drive and use that...
14:44<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, it's an SSD, mostly dedicated to (shh) Windows.
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes, here too
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14:45<@peter1138>Hmm, 7.5GB used by Evolution's cache. Yikes.
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>20GB /, 50GB windows and 40GB /home or so
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14:45<Eddi|zuHause>and then a lot of stuff on other disks
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>when i run out, it usually helps to clean out older kernel versions. especially the sources :p
14:46<@planetmaker>public [11752:4b442698dd7f default] 2009-04-25 22:12 +0000 rubidium
14:46<@planetmaker> (svn r16147) -Feature [FS#2635]: give the town generator a slight tendency to build towns near water by not discarding watery random tiles but by searching for near land (db48x) @ andythenorth
14:46<@planetmaker>so 5 years ago is a pretty good guess :P
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>also i put package manager cache on another disk
14:46<Rubidium_>did I commit it that long ago?!?
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14:47<@planetmaker>seems so. Sorry for the highlight :)
14:47<@planetmaker>I also thought it wasn't that long ago
14:47<Rubidium_>I don't mind
14:47<andythenorth>he he, I wasn’t inventing it
14:47<andythenorth>so many improvements
14:47<andythenorth>all the small thing
14:47<andythenorth>things *
14:47*andythenorth typing problems :(
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14:47<@peter1138>And that'll be why we have more tiny islands with silly towns on them? :p
14:47<andythenorth>I like them
14:48<andythenorth>except they fail to grow
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>it should check whether the land area is large enough
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>like 5x5 or so :)
14:49<@planetmaker>I don't mind those island towns either. Give helis and ships a purpose :)
14:49<andythenorth>try growing them :P
14:49<andythenorth>they get smaller
14:50<andythenorth>what’s not to like? :D https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6791/small_towns.png
14:50<andythenorth>it’s got a church, a stadium...
14:50<andythenorth>some garages
14:51<andythenorth>and room to grow to the next island!
14:53<@planetmaker>and it got a totally fitting name!
14:53<@peter1138>/: 14014414848 bytes were trimmed
14:53<@peter1138>Yeah
14:53<@peter1138>Now to stop evolution making a cache of the email that is stored locally in maildir anyway... o_O
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15:31<andythenorth>hmm
15:31<andythenorth>you see
15:32<andythenorth>the problem
15:32<Rubidium_>is cat's not here?
15:32<Rubidium_>;)
15:32<andythenorth>if transporting cargo *short* distances paid more, people would complain
15:32<andythenorth>and if cargo payment ignored distance, people would complain
15:32<andythenorth>so clearly the current situation is somehow an optimum
15:33<andythenorth>maybe a local optimum
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15:34<@planetmaker>quite right, andythenorth :)
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15:35<@peter1138>Hmm?
15:35<andythenorth>is forums
15:36<@peter1138>Do I dare?
15:36<andythenorth>sensible request
15:36<andythenorth>no good answer
15:36<andythenorth>a perennial issue :P
15:36<@peter1138>Cargo dest is the answer.
15:37<andythenorth>I dunno
15:37<andythenorth>what was the question? o_O
15:38<andythenorth>the distance payment rate has never bothered me
15:42<@Alberth>just post the first two lines, showing that alternatives aren't good either :)
15:42<@Alberth>let the reader draw conclusions :)
15:43<@planetmaker>what does "perennial" mean?
15:44<@planetmaker>ah, uhm :) yeah
15:44<andythenorth>neverending story
15:48<@peter1138>Neverending Aaaaandy
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15:57<andythenorth>how do I get virtualbox to give me my computer back :(
15:57<andythenorth>snaggles the keyboard and mouse from my OS
15:57<Rubidium_>right ctrl?
15:58<andythenorth>don’t have one
15:58<andythenorth>installing the guest additions
15:58<andythenorth>that sometimes works
15:58<@planetmaker>shift+ctrl? or right-cmd
15:59<andythenorth>right-cmd gives me some kind of windows ‘do everything’ menu
16:00<andythenorth>double tap of left-cmd
16:00<andythenorth>seems to work
16:00<andythenorth>IE 7 testing, how I love thee
16:00<@planetmaker>I still like you pointing me to modern.ie for cheap windows VMs :)
16:04*peter1138 ponders breaking tons of NewGRFs.
16:05<andythenorth>\o/
16:05<andythenorth>goan
16:05<andythenorth>what breaks? o_O
16:05<@peter1138>Who knows?
16:06-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
16:07<Wolf01>hello o/
16:07<@peter1138>xUSSR for one.
16:07<@peter1138>av8 has dodgy elements.
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16:09<@peter1138>ukrs2 as well, yarr
16:09<@planetmaker>iron horse?
16:10<@planetmaker>pineapple trains?
16:10<@planetmaker>nuts?
16:10<@peter1138>Well, the proliferation of this "BAD FEATURE" thing means these more modern sets are not so bad.
16:10<@planetmaker>:)
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16:12<@peter1138>dbg: [grf] [nuts_unrealistic_train_set-0.7.4/nuts.grf:13264] GetGroupFromGroupID(0xCC:0x8A): Groupid 0x0E00 does not exist, leaving empty
16:12<@peter1138>Hmm
16:12<@peter1138>That's something else...
16:14<frosch123>standard nml
16:14<frosch123>nml fakes failed callbacks by referencing invalid groups
16:15<frosch123>exploiting undocumented behaviour :p
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16:16<+glx>never a good idea
16:16<@planetmaker>he
16:16<@peter1138>Yeah, I have a patch that disables broken GRFs :p
16:17<@planetmaker>:D
16:17<@peter1138>It was only allowed originally because our handling was so bad that nothing would've worked :p
16:20<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/unsafevars.png
16:20*peter1138 ponders rewording it.
16:21<frosch123>unsafe in purchase list?
16:21-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:21<@peter1138>Sure.
16:21<frosch123>what var is unsafe there?
16:22<@peter1138>Current year.
16:23<@peter1138>I don't make any distinction between built vehicles and purchase lists.
16:23<frosch123>fair enough
16:24<frosch123>can't think of a use-case where purchase list would need more vars than after construction
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16:27<@peter1138>Although... in this case, indeed, that var is only used in the purchase list chain.
16:27<frosch123>i guess it is from before "construction year" worked in purchase list
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16:31<@peter1138>I could disable the checks in the purchase list.
16:31<@peter1138>It's just one if-condition.
16:35<@peter1138>Gives rise to stuff working in the purchase list which then doesn't work when you buy it.
16:35<frosch123>yeah, better keep it
16:37<@planetmaker>what about things which rely on 'last service date' or 'construction date' which should reflect in purchase list?
16:37<frosch123>those vars are available in purchase list
16:37<@planetmaker>in purchase list those aren't available, but current_year is (iirc)
16:37<@peter1138>They are, they're simulated.
16:37<frosch123>they return the current date, but are considered safe :p
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16:38<@planetmaker>ok, good :)
16:38<@peter1138>case 0x4B: return _date; // Long date of last service
16:38<@peter1138>etc :-)
16:39<@peter1138>Although...
16:39<@peter1138>Ah, long date, that's why it's 4x.
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16:49<@planetmaker>g'night
16:50<andythenorth>bye planetmaker
16:50<andythenorth>frosch123: btw my current game benefits from visual effect creation ;)
16:50*andythenorth wonders if the game is really nearly finished
16:51<frosch123>"benefits" sounds weird in that context :)
16:51<andythenorth>‘is enhanced by’ :P
16:51<andythenorth>are most ponies now done?
16:51<andythenorth>what’s left?
16:52<frosch123>new object construction by industries
16:52<frosch123>coloured smoke
16:52<frosch123>ship waves as effect vehicles
16:52<andythenorth>improved docks
16:53<andythenorth>consist management
16:53<frosch123>that's now newgrf feature :p
16:53<andythenorth>I think that’s about it
16:53<frosch123>if you add the non-newgrf stuff, i have a list of 150 things or so
16:53<andythenorth>well
16:53<@peter1138>Hmm, wonder if I can upload stuff to bananas
16:53<andythenorth>that’s a lot :)
16:54<frosch123>peter1138: debug vehicles is very popular
16:54<andythenorth>in Iron Horse, Road Hog and Squid there is not a single additional newgrf feature I would want right now
16:54<@peter1138>Debug vehicles?
16:54<andythenorth>FIRS would benefit from object creation, nothing else
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16:55<frosch123>not as popular as albert's "example staircase" heightmap though
16:56<andythenorth>what landscape is this? o_O http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=504063&nseq=8
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16:59<@peter1138>Hmm, apparently I already have a GRF on there... UK waypoints.
16:59<@peter1138>Dwonloaded 61000 times :p
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17:00<frosch123>andythenorth: the trees are weird
17:00<frosch123>the light ones are considerable taller than the other
17:01<andythenorth>odd aren’t they
17:01<andythenorth>kind of TTD-ish though
17:01<@peter1138>Unrealistic curve
17:01<@peter1138>andythenorth, what should I call this height map?
17:02<andythenorth>hm4?
17:02<@peter1138>Yeah
17:02<andythenorth>call it hm4
17:02<@peter1138>Oh
17:02<andythenorth>just do a series
17:02<andythenorth>hm5
17:02<andythenorth>hm6
17:02<andythenorth>hm7
17:02<andythenorth>you can see how it goes
17:03<andythenorth>if you must have a name, Big Bend?
17:03<frosch123>call it "Purchase Heightmap Generators now - only 19.95 his month"
17:03<andythenorth>ha
17:03<@peter1138>:-)
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>can't you just make "unsafe" variables "safe" by returning a fixed value?
17:04<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: what's the point of that?
17:04<frosch123>make people search for why their grf does weird things?
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: a GRF should not be able to desync a game
17:04<frosch123>that's the wrong end
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>no matter how weird the GRF gets
17:04<frosch123>mainly a grf should do what the author thinks it does
17:05<andythenorth>grf desyncing a game is fine
17:05<andythenorth>it’s broken
17:05<frosch123>ottd should not approximate some similar behaviour
17:05<andythenorth>so break
17:05<@peter1138>Actually my patch does make it safe.
17:05<@peter1138>It fails the callback and warns the player (who is hopefully the set author...)
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>fail the callback, and warn only if newgrf_developer is active?
17:06<@peter1138>Maybe.
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, the game should not desync, ever.
17:07<@peter1138>But we warn on other stupid things, like changing length in the wrong place.
17:07<andythenorth>why not desync?
17:07<andythenorth>we’re not running nuclear power
17:07<andythenorth>desyncing newgrfs will soon get binned or fixed
17:07<andythenorth>problem solved
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>no, they're not.
17:08<@peter1138>andythenorth, the idea is to fix these little niggles to prevent the endless stream of "this game desyncs for no reason"
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>they stick around, and cause unneeded support requests
17:08<andythenorth>hmm ok
17:08*andythenorth moves on
17:08<@peter1138>I do like the last one "this game desyncs, but I don't have any savegames"
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>desyncs are a mighty pain to even determine that the GRF is at fault in the first place
17:08<@peter1138>Cheers...
17:10<@peter1138>Heh, can't really say this is GPL, as there's no source :S
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>dancing intermission: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irBD30O-FmM
17:10<@peter1138>Hmm, maybe I should also save the seeds, although it's a bit late for this one.
17:10<andythenorth>peter1138: so got any more?
17:10<andythenorth>not that I’ve finished my game yet
17:10<andythenorth>we should all stop pissing about with actual openttd and make GS
17:10<andythenorth>I am feeling a lack
17:11<andythenorth>SV is great, but I’ve played it to death
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>ask the resident GS developer?
17:16<andythenorth>there is one?
17:16<@peter1138>Bah, why isn't town separate an option?
17:16<andythenorth>I want to learn how to write a GS, but not alone, and also…newgrfs
17:16<@peter1138>Should I make it one?
17:16<@peter1138>*separation
17:16<andythenorth>maybe
17:16<andythenorth>never bothered me
17:16<andythenorth>got enough map options
17:18<@peter1138>Hmm, wonder how it behaves in 1.4.4
17:18<andythenorth>do you have tiny towns crowded around your cities?
17:18<andythenorth>pretty common on my maps
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17:18<@peter1138>Oh wow, it sucks on on 1.4.4 :p
17:22<@peter1138>Towns seem to avoid mountains already.
17:22<@peter1138>Probably just avoiding lots of slope though.
17:23<frosch123>i think towns need a flat tile or something
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17:24<andythenorth>they didn’t build in the mountains much in my game
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17:24<andythenorth>they’ll build on flat-tops that tgp produces
17:24<frosch123>i think towns are deleted again if they result in zero population or something
17:24<frosch123>that is, if no houses could be built
17:25<frosch123>hmm, but that should not restrict slopes
17:25<andythenorth>sloped towns are a PITA
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen 0 population towns
17:25<andythenorth>can’t build road stops easily
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>but usually they have a church
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i'm pretty sure that towns can only be created on flat tiles
17:27<@peter1138>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/6149/getfile/9996/bevels.png
17:27<@peter1138>Should we do that? My instincts say no.
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>original TT had much more prominent window and button borders
17:29<andythenorth>no
17:29<andythenorth>1996 called
17:29<andythenorth>it would like its bevels back
17:29<andythenorth>we use 1 pixel highlight and shadow
17:29<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, sure... http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/tto.png
17:29<andythenorth>not fricking huge bevels
17:29<andythenorth>TTO was dog ugly
17:29<andythenorth>he improved it
17:33<@peter1138>png6!
17:33<@peter1138>er
17:33<@peter1138>png9!
17:34<andythenorth>is there a shake-head emoticon?
17:34<@peter1138>:o
17:34<@peter1138>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/6157
17:34<@peter1138>lol
17:35<andythenorth>I want multi-threaded MP3 playback
17:35<andythenorth>so it’s faster
17:36<andythenorth>road hog idea http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=101904&#entry2043185
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>real life cubicles!
17:37<@peter1138>"zomg industry generation 4096x4096 with high indstries is slow"
17:37<@peter1138>shocking
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i don't think i have an opinion on the bevels
17:38<andythenorth>I blame FIRS
17:38<andythenorth>hmm
17:38*andythenorth was talking to Australians in Brisbane at 6am UK time, and it wasn’t Pikka
17:38<@peter1138>I blame using a ridicuously sized map.
17:38<andythenorth>maybe I could stop working now?
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it wouldn't be ridiculous if each of the 16 cores handled a 1024x1024 corner of the map :p
17:39<@peter1138>Starting a new game on hm4... dunno where to start.
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>why would you ever play the same map twice?
17:40<andythenorth>peter1138: which GS?
17:40<@peter1138>None
17:40<@peter1138>Should I?
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>no. GS are for people who cannot stick to their own rules
17:41<andythenorth>or people lacking imagination
17:41<andythenorth>or overly-focussed on win conditions
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17:44<@peter1138>Hmm, that's why I can't decide where to start. It's too big.
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>make it a 64x64 map
17:45<@peter1138>Shut it!
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>there are only extremes in this world!
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17:48<andythenorth>start in the middle
17:48<andythenorth>or at Flodlingpool
17:48<@peter1138>Which is water :D
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>i think the map andy has shown has too much water in it...
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17:50<andythenorth>relative to what scale of idealism? :o
17:51<@peter1138>If you want to use ships, you need water.
17:51<andythenorth>also if you don’t want trains everywhere
17:51<andythenorth>ditto
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18:03<@peter1138>Squid purchase list... what
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>proof that andy's mental condition is getting worse :p
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18:08<andythenorth>is problem?
18:09<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/hm11.png
18:09<@peter1138>Playing that now.
18:09<@peter1138>Smaller.
18:09<@peter1138>Evidently.
18:09<andythenorth>Squids?
18:10<@peter1138>Different algorithm too. This is using the TGP algorithm, which is kinda faster.
18:11*andythenorth tests it
18:11<@peter1138>It's kinda bland, there's no pointy mountains.
18:12<andythenorth>yup
18:12<andythenorth>some maps have that jeuxneuxsayquoix
18:12<andythenorth>and some aint'
18:12<andythenorth>ain’t
18:13<@peter1138>This algorithm doesn't take 8 minutes to make a map you hate, which is good.
18:13<@peter1138>But it doesn't really have a concept of 'smooth'
18:17-!-luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
18:18<@peter1138>Hmm, not making any money :(
18:18<@peter1138>Maybe I need some ctrl-alt-C investment.
18:20<Wolf01>'night
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18:20<andythenorth>your shame will be forever known
18:20<frosch123>maybe he did alt+1 instead
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>or alt+0? :p
18:21<@peter1138>Does nothing on my build.
18:22<frosch123>not sure whether alt+0 was fixed
18:22<frosch123>somewhen it failed because it was optimised away
18:23<andythenorth>also
18:23<andythenorth>bedtime
18:23<andythenorth>bye
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18:29<@peter1138>I'm not on a debug build, so...
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18:47<argoneus>o/
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18:56<supermop>whats up
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19:17<argoneus>good night train friends
19:17<Supercheese>Buenas noches
19:17<argoneus>y tu
19:17<argoneus>or tu tambien
19:17<argoneus>w/e
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19:44<frosch123>night
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---Logclosed Thu Oct 30 00:00:35 2014