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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-10-30

---Logopened Thu Oct 30 00:00:35 2014
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05:10<argoneus>good morning train friends
05:12<@planetmaker>moin moin
05:14<V453000>moooin
05:15<murr4y>choo choo
05:25<supermop>so my book arrived from germany today
05:25<V453000>yo supermop
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05:26<V453000>supermop: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/yeti/wiki/Tech this is what I do with yeti render -> sprites
05:26<V453000>just after effects + photoshop magix
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05:29<argoneus>V453000: looks like wizardry to me
05:29<argoneus>especially all those cryptic settings in 3ds
05:29<argoneus>"GI"
05:29<V453000>settings. :)
05:32<V453000>GI is global illumination btw
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05:32<argoneus>oh
05:36<supermop>cool
05:36<supermop>anyway, there was not much in the book about the building i was interested in
05:37<supermop>but i did find a gem in the advertisements: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1135015#p1135015
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05:38<V453000>xd
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05:44<@planetmaker>not wizardry. But professional graphics design, I call that. Not that I can do that as easily :)
05:45<NGC3982>Will the autoreplace function make the game stop nag me about old vehicles?
05:45<NGC3982>:|
05:46<NGC3982>(Even when using a >1 month after-old wait time)
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05:48<V453000>it isnt even that hard to do, just basic knowledge of the postproduction software is enough... it is very clean though :)
05:48<argoneus>postproduction is photoshop and aftereffects?
05:48<V453000>yes
05:49<V453000>in this case yes
05:49<argoneus>is aftereffects like sony vegas on steroids?
05:49<argoneus>or are they different
05:50<V453000>I wouldnt compare it to sony vegas, no, that is what Premiere is for
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05:51<argoneus>is premiere better than vegas?
05:52<V453000>I dont use either much
05:52<V453000>cant compare
05:52<argoneus>but so basically
05:52<dihedral>o/
05:52<argoneus>aftereffects is for adding things on the scenes
05:52<argoneus>basically a photoshop for videos
05:52<argoneus>and premiere/vegas is for putting clips together, adding music etc?
05:53<V453000>kind of, yes
05:53<V453000>hi dih
05:53<argoneus>\o
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06:10<argoneus>guys
06:10<argoneus>imagine if there were trains in real life
06:12<supermop>imagine if seinfeld was on tv today
06:26<dihedral>imagine silly statements being made on irc
06:28<@planetmaker>now, don't be silly! ;)
06:28<b_jonas>argoneus: yeah, and imagine if they were openttd's extra long trains, they could fit to single tile depots, self-intersect, and reverse in place!
06:28<argoneus>and make 90 degree turns
06:29<argoneus>what is self-intersect
06:29<argoneus>and they can reverse in place kind of
06:29<argoneus>many trains have two engines
06:29<argoneus>just have the driver walk to the other side
06:29<b_jonas>and imagine vacuum trains in real life, ones that not only have a high top speed, but also accelerate as quickly as the openttd ones
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06:32<b_jonas>argoneus: self-intersect is when the start of a long train runs into a carriage near the end on a looping track. that doesn't caues a collision, unlike when it runs into another train
06:32<b_jonas>argoneus: as for reverse, sure, trains and especially trams can do that with two engines, but openttd trains reverse the sequence and orientation of their carriages so one engine can appear on the other side of the train instantiously as long as the train is stopped
06:33<argoneus>b_jonas: I haven't seen the first happen
06:33<argoneus>so train can't collide with itself?
06:33<argoneus>I could've sworn it crashes
06:33<b_jonas>argoneus: you sort of have to make it happen, it doesn't happen on normal routes
06:34<b_jonas>try to make a + crossing tile then connect two of its ends with three short railway tiles
06:34<b_jonas>then get a train to run through that
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06:39<Eddi|zuHause>it happened all the time with the stupid original pathfinder
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08:40<supermop>later
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08:56<andythenorth>yeah
08:56<andythenorth>so
08:56<andythenorth>I don’t get it
08:56<andythenorth>where’s the code that rewards longer distances?
08:56<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Cargos#Penalty_times_and_price_factor_.2810.2C11.2C12.29
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08:57<andythenorth>distance/2 is constant
08:57<andythenorth>as compared to say ‘distance * distance’
08:57<andythenorth>or ‘distance * 1.5 if distance < 32 else distance * 2’
08:58<andythenorth>is there some bit shift or something in there that I don’t understand?
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09:16<@peter1138>moo
09:17<argoneus>boo
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09:20<frosch123>quak
09:24<@planetmaker>I sense a frosch lurking. And it's right :D Hi
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10:12<andythenorth>still don’t get it
10:12<andythenorth>what’s the premium that’s applied for going further?
10:12<andythenorth>(cargo transport)
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10:16<simozzz>Hello everyone! Haven't been here for a long time...
10:18<frosch123>don't worry, you didn't miss anything important
10:18<simozzz>I came to ask if anybody play xUSSRset here? Need some feedback about it.
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10:25<simozzz>We've came to a question how to translate some early steam series like "Ы" or "Ь"...
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10:28<simozzz>We also need graphics for FIRS cargoes
10:30<simozzz>But it seems andy is away...
10:30<andythenorth>it does?
10:30<simozzz>Well.. not now)
10:36<simozzz>Andy, do you have graphics of scrap metal, farm supplies(or it could be defined as fertilizers? ), engineering supplies and others? Or could you tell me someone who have made them for other trainsets?
10:39<andythenorth>V453000 made loads
10:39<simozzz>Also wonder about all cargo density? It is needed to determine max capacity of some boxcars.
10:39<andythenorth>farm supplies can be fertilisers
10:39<andythenorth>cargos are documented here http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html
10:40<andythenorth>if you need more, it’s in the code
10:40<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/show/src/cargos
10:40<andythenorth>e.g. https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/cargos/alcohol.py
10:40<andythenorth>engineering supplies, some people take from HEQS
10:41<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/heqs/repository/show/sprites/graphics
10:41<andythenorth>assuming GPL
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10:43<simozzz>Thanks for links. ES from HEQS won't work since they are in different scale.
10:44<simozzz>But that'll be awesome if you can redraw them...
10:44<simozzz>or atleast include ones we will make later in HEQS.
10:46<@planetmaker>how should it work? Adjust the sprites depending on the train set(s) running concurrently to heqs?
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10:48<argoneus>would it be possible to create a slave newgrf?
10:48<argoneus>like, a bunch of black men dragging coal around
10:48<argoneus>or egyptians
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10:51<simozzz>Planetmaker, it'll be good to have same sprites both as road vehicles and cargo on platforms.
10:51<@planetmaker>simozzz, yes. Then you definitely should adjust to heqs.
10:51<@planetmaker>as its sprites are used already in several places
10:51<@planetmaker>and several newgrfs
10:52<simozzz>and we already use some ISR graphics.
10:52<andythenorth>argoneus: yes, you could create that
10:52<andythenorth>go ahead
10:53<andythenorth>slaves aren’t exclusively black or egyptian btw
10:53<argoneus>egyptians didn't even have slaves
10:53<argoneus>but slaves were typically african
10:53<simozzz>but sprites that in HEQS already will be bigger than needed.
10:54<andythenorth>argoneus: ‘typically’ ?
10:55<V453000>simozzz: NUTS has all cargo spritez :P
10:55<argoneus>when someone says slave
10:55<argoneus>you don't imagine a blonde swede
10:55<argoneus>or do you
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10:56<andythenorth>I am sitting 3 floors up in the world’s biggest slave trading port in 1000 AD
10:56<andythenorth>the street I am on used to have chained up slaves going along it daily
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10:58<argoneus>where are you from again
10:58<andythenorth>same place as TTD, oddly enough
10:58<andythenorth>which is bizarre
10:58<argoneus>where is that
10:58<argoneus>ameriko?
10:58<andythenorth>nah
10:58<argoneus>britain?
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10:59<argoneus>wait
10:59<argoneus>biggest slave trading port 1000 AD
10:59<argoneus>can't be amerika
10:59*argoneus facepalms
10:59<argoneus>britain then?
10:59<andythenorth>good save
11:00<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bristol#Saxon_era
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11:02<andythenorth>http://www.buildinghistory.org/bristol/saxonslaves.shtml
11:02<argoneus>heh
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11:03<simozzz>have some problems with connection.
11:03<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_slave_trade
11:04<simozzz>someone definitely should make newgrf with slaves cargo and industries related to itm
11:04<andythenorth>origin of ‘Slave’ might be ‘Slav’
11:04<andythenorth>simozzz: the problem is whether it’s seen as glorifying slavery or satirising
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>or the other way around?
11:04<argoneus>andythenorth: it could be neither
11:04<andythenorth>it’s never neither with topics like that
11:05<argoneus>I don't see anything wrong with it
11:05<argoneus>slavery is outlawed today, but it was a part of the old times
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>what was this "concentration camp tycoon" thingie again?
11:05<andythenorth>due to game players being at least as thick as the next average person
11:05<andythenorth>some would revel in slavery
11:05<andythenorth>with racist overtones
11:05<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: that's still fresh
11:05<argoneus>people who went through that are still alive
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>there was this picture a few years ago
11:05<argoneus>are any slaves or their children alive?
11:06<andythenorth>loads
11:06<andythenorth>millions of people are thought to be in slavery
11:06<argoneus>well
11:06<argoneus>do they have access to ottd
11:06<andythenorth>21 million people at current estimate
11:06<simozzz>hm... have anyone thought about 'carribean tycoon'? Where most valuable cargoes are gold, rum and slaves?))
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: what kind of sick argument is that?
11:07<andythenorth>simozzz: similar to Heart of Darkness in FIRS
11:07<andythenorth>except no slaves
11:07<andythenorth>I left the slaves out
11:07<andythenorth>considered it
11:07<andythenorth>but decided colonial exploitation was far enough on the good taste scale
11:07<@planetmaker>yeti kinda is the satire comical side of it
11:07<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:Holocauster.jpg
11:07<V453000>YETIS AINT NO SLAVES :D
11:07<andythenorth>yetis ain’t no people either
11:07<andythenorth>where are their rights?
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: ah yes, that one
11:08<andythenorth>that’s not particularly offensive in any way
11:08<andythenorth>any more than Wolfenstein, or concentration camp lego
11:08<simozzz>Andy, kind of, but not in modern times but around 16th century.
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: remember that scene from star trek, where the klingon guy claims even the word "human rights" is racist?
11:09<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: it's not a sick argument
11:09<simozzz>lego concentration camp? never thought about buildint anything like that))
11:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause no, but I think I see the point
11:10<andythenorth>http://boingboing.net/2011/10/25/the-worlds-most-controversial-lego-model.html
11:10<argoneus>there's a difference between having generic slaves in a game and red swastikas with arbeit macht frei written everywhere
11:10<andythenorth>what colour are generic slaves?
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11:11<argoneus>all sorts of colours
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11:11<argoneus>but you usually see them portrayed as black
11:11<andythenorth>google images agrees with you
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: it really is... "we can make fun of the misery of other people, as long as they won't find out."
11:12<argoneus>I didn't mean it to sound like that
11:12<argoneus>there's nothing to be made fun of
11:13<andythenorth>anyway nothing stops you making the grf
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11:13<andythenorth>I think it has design challenges
11:13<simozzz>Lets make these slaves pink!
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11:14<simozzz>Than noone will be harmed or will have thoughts of these being racist.
11:14<argoneus>more like moral challenges
11:14<argoneus>I mean
11:14<argoneus>people were freaking out over mr. popo from dragonball
11:14<argoneus>so much that one of the dubs made him blue
11:14<argoneus>that's just sad
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>no idea who that is
11:15<argoneus>google mr. popo
11:15<argoneus>you'll see why
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>i won't ever put the word "popo" into google :p
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11:15<Eddi|zuHause>"popo" means "ass"...
11:15<argoneus>well
11:15<argoneus>your call
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11:16<Eddi|zuHause>when they first aired star trek in germany, they left out the nazi episode
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11:16<Eddi|zuHause>and in some other episodes they completely changed the storyline
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11:16<argoneus>you also have GEMA, don't you
11:16<argoneus>blocking everything
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>that's something completely different
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11:17<simozzz>Btw I thaik that coloured people's fight for polite correction is also racism.
11:17<argoneus>maybe I am just biased by being czech
11:17<@planetmaker>"polite correction". That sounds like 1984
11:18<argoneus>my country seems to be racist in general
11:18<argoneus>not sure if V453000 would agree
11:18<@planetmaker>it's surprising how racist people are, even if they don't agree ;)
11:19<argoneus>what do you mean
11:19<simozzz>Why white can't call someone black or niger, while they can call us white or snowball?
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11:19<argoneus>in my country
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11:19<argoneus>if a caucasian beats up a gypsy, it's racism
11:20<argoneus>if a group of gypsies beats up a caucasian, he provoked them
11:20<argoneus>:(
11:20-!-MTs-iPad [~MTs-iPad@008-086-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #openttd
11:20<frosch123>@kban argoneus 100000
11:20-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~argoneus@argoneus.com] by DorpsGek
11:20-!-argoneus was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [frosch123]
11:20<frosch123>@kban simozzzz 100000
11:20<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Error: simozzzz is not in #openttd.
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>that was a z too much
11:21<frosch123>@kban simozzz 100000
11:21-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~oftc-webi@213.87.132.168] by DorpsGek
11:21-!-simozzz was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [frosch123]
11:21<V453000>I do and dont argoneus
11:21<V453000>one thing is racism and one thing is hate for reasons
11:21<@planetmaker>he won't hear you for 1.25 days, V453000
11:21<V453000>:0
11:22<V453000>what did he do?
11:22<@planetmaker>spread racist propaganda in this channel, basically
11:22<frosch123>this is no political channel
11:22<V453000>well that is how it actually works in czech republic
11:22<V453000>not much of a propaganda
11:22<frosch123>the majority of groups is never suitable to talk about a minority
11:22<V453000> /enuf
11:22<frosch123>be it races, genders or orientations
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, if you're a heterosexual white male, you can't discuss anything :p
11:23<andythenorth>I am always being oppressed
11:23<andythenorth>I find
11:24<andythenorth>oh
11:24*andythenorth is doing that ‘saying the opposite of truth’ thing
11:24<andythenorth>again
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the core about all these "-isms" is asymmetry
11:24<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: XD
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>and that gets extended by blaming all your problems on the other group
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>and that can't ever result in anything positive happening
11:25<andythenorth>also
11:25<andythenorth>if we’re kbanning other people for talking politics
11:25<andythenorth>we shouldn’t
11:26<andythenorth>otherwise it’s just another abuse of power
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>you don't have to tolerate the intolerant.
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11:30<Headbang>is there a minimum spec to run a openttd server? memory cpu wise?
11:31<frosch123>depends on you map size
11:31<frosch123>cpu limits map size and number of vehicles
11:32<frosch123>upload bandwidth limits speed in which players can join
11:32<frosch123>other stats are likely irrelevant
11:32<Headbang>ok, ive got a old computer but it sure wasnt up to spec for minecraft :) but i have would think openttd is less memory hogging
11:33<Headbang>the bandwith shouldnt be a problem, luxury of ftth
11:33<frosch123>Headbang: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive <- you can find some busy savegames there
11:33<frosch123>that will tell you how big maps and how many vehicles it can handle
11:33<frosch123>i.e. whehter vehicles run smooth, or are lagging
11:34<Headbang>ok nice link! thanks
11:35<Headbang>off to work, tnx and goodby
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12:17<@peter1138>Hmm, a strange parcel arrived today.
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>a wild parcel appeared.
12:27<andythenorth>peter1138: there might be shenanigans with the OS install
12:27<andythenorth>dunno
12:27<andythenorth>fonso had to sort it out
12:28<andythenorth>I thought we’d shipped them with an OS and dev tools, but maybe not
12:28<@peter1138>Should be fine, there's a USB key.
12:29<andythenorth>yeah that didn’t work for fonso :|
12:29<andythenorth>slight miscommunication between me and our office manager
12:29<andythenorth>there should be a .iso which you can burn to DVD though
12:30<@peter1138>Hmm, well it boots. I don't have an Apple ID to get any further yet.
12:30<andythenorth>ach you don’t need that, unless you want to download latest xcode
12:30<andythenorth>afaik
12:31<andythenorth>I used to ignore all that crap
12:31<NGC3982>What's "Apple ID"?
12:31<andythenorth>until I wanted to have icloud for baby photos
12:31<@peter1138>Wouldn't let me ignore it.
12:31<andythenorth>oh
12:31<@peter1138>Hmm, I'll try again.
12:31<andythenorth>sounds dumb, you can’t get an Apple ID without a web connection
12:31<andythenorth>bit limiting if you don’t have a computer :P
12:31<andythenorth>maybe they changed it
12:35<@peter1138>Ah, I get it, it wants to download OS X with it.
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12:45<andythenorth>peter1138 oh maybe it’s trying to do internet restore
12:45<andythenorth>the newer macs will do that
12:47<@peter1138>Seems like it.
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12:48<andythenorth>I was sceptical at first
12:48<andythenorth>less so now
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13:31<V453000>http://explosm.net/comics/3703/
13:33<@Alberth>somewhat complicated reasoning :)
13:35<@planetmaker>similar to http://www.pinetree.net/humor/thermodynamics.html really ;)
13:42-!-simozzz [~oftc-webi@213.87.130.19] has joined #openttd
13:42<V453000>oh yeah that one is good pm :D
13:44<NGC3982>Hah, the title.
13:44<simozzz>Sorry if I said something wrong, but it's hard for me to understand why someone can't call someone as he wants. ..
13:45<simozzz>I'll try to avoid that topic in future.
13:45-!-moffi [~moffi@dsdf-4d0a4022.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de]
13:46<NGC3982>The only decent thing said in that discussion was "1982".
13:46*NGC3982 was hilighted.
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13:49<@Alberth>your nick may be off by 2K
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14:24<frosch123>how do you call the items in a tuple?
14:24<frosch123>members?
14:24<frosch123>first member of a tuple?
14:24<@Alberth>tuple fields
14:24<frosch123>first item in a tuple?
14:25<frosch123>thanks :)
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14:30<@planetmaker>bah... openttd on a phone is about unplayable :P
14:35<frosch123>did you just try? :p
14:45<Rubidium_>planetmaker: then your phone isn't big enough and your fingers aren't small enough ;)
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15:01*andythenorth ‘invents’ a GS
15:01<andythenorth>Contract King
15:01<andythenorth>deliver to one industry, make goal, get two more industries to deliver to
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15:01<andythenorth>increasing linearly for each level unlocked
15:01<andythenorth>basically Tetris, but with cargo goal
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15:12<@Alberth>contracts fail with cargo-dist :(
15:15<frosch123>any gs with a specific industry/town target fails with cdist
15:15<frosch123>but i think "fail" is the wrong term
15:16<frosch123>those gs are more like an alternative to cdist
15:18<andythenorth>contracts don’t fail with cdist
15:19<andythenorth>sounds like the common misnomer that cdist sets destinations
15:19<andythenorth>if cdist failed with contracts, that’s either player error or a bug to report to fonso :)
15:20<andythenorth>the thing with cdist is that it demands a careful network
15:20<andythenorth>or rather, many networks
15:22*andythenorth is becoming a cdist convert
15:23<fonsinchen>By using the cargodist script API you could check if your goals are realistic
15:24<frosch123>i think andy is thinking about unserviced industries, so cdist wouldn't know them
15:26<andythenorth>yes
15:26<andythenorth>and as long as the player doesn’t bridge networks there is no problem
15:26<andythenorth>cdist will just route ok
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15:27<andythenorth>my current cdist game has zero problems
15:27<andythenorth>lots of many->one primary cargo routes
15:28<andythenorth>a big many->one->many secondary cargo route (it’s a SV game with target 5 industries)
15:28<fonsinchen>You can progressively increase the cargo requirements to the industries. Once they're connected you can see what cargodist wants to do.
15:28<andythenorth>lots of one->some routes for supplies
15:28<simozzz>Andy, you are speaking about locomotion-like ttd for phones?
15:29<andythenorth>I have no one->many routes
15:29<andythenorth>one->many is a case where cdist will struggle to meet player expectations
15:30<fonsinchen>That's the case where it actually does something, yes.
15:31<andythenorth>hard for cdist to know what player / industry grf / GS requires
15:31<andythenorth>more likely to fail than win I think
15:31<andythenorth>but by avoiding that case, it works excellently
15:34<andythenorth>apparently I have effect of distance at 100%
15:34<andythenorth>surprised that is working for the supplies case
15:34<andythenorth>but it is
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15:47<Wolf01>hai
15:47<andythenorth>lo
15:48-!-Core [~Slipmatt_@client-86-29-153-133.glfd-bam-2.adsl.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
15:48<Core>Hello, can someone please help me? I cannot connect to multiplayer games, they time out after downloading a few KB/s
15:50<Core>http://i.imgur.com/TnBlcDf.png
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15:52<Sylf>which game are you trying to connect to? what kind of internet connection do you have?
15:52<Wolf01>it could be 3 things, your connection is slow, the server upload is slow, the sum of the two
15:52-!-simozzz [~oftc-webi@213.87.130.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:53<Core>I have ADSL+
15:53<Core>it happens on all servers
15:55<Wolf01>ADSL+ spans from >1Mbps to the future and beyond, it would be good to know the real speed
15:55<Wolf01>could you try this? http://www.speedtest.net
15:55<Core>My bandwidth is certainly more than 1-5 Kb/s
15:56<Core>also this happens: http://i.imgur.com/zGJfFfp.png
15:56<Sylf>http://www.speedtest.net/
15:56<Sylf>let's see what you get
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15:57<Wolf01>for example as now I have 73ms ping, 3.3Mbps down and 0.4Mbps up
15:58<Core>http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/3871688942
15:58<Core>is there a server location i should try?
15:58<Core>That was based on a sever close to me
15:58<Core>server
15:59<Wolf01>heh... the connection looks good, then it could be a problem of some other nature
16:00<Core>All other multiplayer games work fine
16:00<Core>it's strange
16:01<Core>is there a central server for Openttd?
16:01<Sylf>no
16:01<Core>That I must go through before connect to the actual host?
16:01<Sylf>well, there's the server that lists the available game hosts
16:01<Sylf>and you already connected to that one
16:02<Core>the download system works fine
16:02<Sylf>that MaxNET server works just fine for me, so the server works good too
16:04<Core>i'll try reinstall
16:04<Core>you are 64bit version?
16:04<Sylf>yes, 64bit windows
16:07<Core>hmmm
16:08<Core>just, wtf
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16:15<Sylf>Is there any way to implement a square-root function in NML?
16:20<frosch123>you can make a big switch :)
16:20<Sylf>eh?
16:21<Sylf>oh, chained switch statements...
16:21<Sylf>>_<
16:22<frosch123>it's likely better if you only do an approximation, instead of something exact
16:23<Sylf>yeah. I don't need precision.
16:32<+glx>Core: wifi ?
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16:41<Core>glx no...
16:41<Core>wait
16:43<Core>i switched to wired and no difference :(
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17:28<NGC3982>What was the name of that application that could connect my OpenTTD chat/rcon to IRC?
17:28<frosch123>soap
17:29<frosch123>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/soap
17:31<NGC3982>Do i use that site in some way?
17:32<NGC3982>Or am i to dumb to find documentation or files
17:32<frosch123>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/soap/repository/entry/README.txt
17:34<@planetmaker>frosch123, indeed I gave openttd on a phone a shot earlier today... not sure I'll try again
17:35<@planetmaker>10" tablet might work
17:35<frosch123>i assume it was not your phone
17:36<@planetmaker>oh it actually is.
17:36<@planetmaker>was just curious
17:36<frosch123>aw, i thought you met some random guy, and said: hey, nice game, can i try it?
17:36<@planetmaker>my old broke, so I needed a replacement
17:36<@planetmaker>:D
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17:36<frosch123>planetmaker: do you return the phone now?
17:37<@planetmaker>no :P
17:37<frosch123>i mean, if it is new, you can surely return it, if it does not run ottd
17:37<@planetmaker>well, I still have 13 days to return it, yes
17:37<frosch123>ah, i see, you are waiting for more gui patches
17:38<@planetmaker>but I don't want a 24" monitor with a GPRS device glued to the back :D
17:39<frosch123>i am waiting for the device that covers the complete inner side of your forearm
17:39<Rubidium_>iphone 10?
17:39<@planetmaker>frosch123, not sure GUI patches would actually cut it for me
17:39<frosch123>would be weird aspect ratio though
17:39<@planetmaker>I tried to build some rail. And that is... not fun with a touch device. That needs probably exactly this polyline trackbuilding tool or similar
17:40<@planetmaker>with a preview option and 2nd confirmation after review
17:40<@planetmaker>thus it needs more than just some window layouts
17:41<@planetmaker>the toolbar on the android version actually is on the sides. Which is a good place to put it. And new map window is also adjusted in not a bad way
17:41<frosch123>"new map window"? is that worldgen or smallmap?
17:41<@planetmaker>worldgen
17:42<@planetmaker>the climates are left of the rest
17:42<@planetmaker>it's a bit re-shuffled to better fit wide screens
17:43<@planetmaker>maybe I can create a screenshot...
17:43<frosch123>nah, i can imagine
17:43<Zuu>Hmm reading forum posts about something you got a patch for is dangerous :-)
17:43<@planetmaker>hehe, Zuu :)
17:44<@planetmaker>welcome back to the game ;)
17:44<Zuu>At least if said patch is not complete :-)
17:45<@planetmaker>anyhow, I find the placement of stuff with a touch device the most tedious and inaccurate thing
17:45<Zuu>I watched some CppCon presentations yesterday including keynote by Bjarne. Made me want to do some C++ again. Although OpenTTD is not really the landscape for newer standards. :-)
17:45<@planetmaker>That's what basically disillusioned me a bit
17:46<andythenorth>I hate touch
17:46<andythenorth>hate is maybe too strong
17:46<andythenorth>touch is frustratingly non-tactile
17:46<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/poxby7urq <- btw.: current nml output for ogfx+rv
17:46<frosch123>tomorrow i hope to get to register usage
17:47<frosch123>all those id assignments actually happen quite late in the processing and are surprisingly independent
17:47<@planetmaker> (@return_action_22) <-- what info does that carry?
17:47<frosch123>that's unfinished, it should look like the thing for the spritesets
17:47<@planetmaker>it's info currently not exposed anywhere, directly from the ast?
17:48<@planetmaker>aye :)
17:48<frosch123>i am unsure how many info to flood
17:48<frosch123>currently i print all id types, of which at least 1 is used
17:48<frosch123>but total number of spritesets and spritegroups does not look particulary useful
17:49<frosch123>so i think i'll limit it to the things with limits
17:49<Rubidium_>you could add levels of the "debug" information
17:50<Rubidium_>e.g. -v for the limited things, -vv for the limited and unlimited things
17:50<frosch123>currently there is a single "--quiet" option
17:50<frosch123>which also silences warnings
17:50<frosch123>one could add an "--verbose" option for more stats
17:51<frosch123>but i rather skip info without use, and keep useful as default
17:55<frosch123>planetmaker: also, is my comment in #6474 correct? if so, i have a patch for it :p
17:59<@planetmaker>If I only knew what I thought a year ago :)
17:59<@planetmaker>when I looked at it earlier briefly again I was more like "why the hell would a newgrf want to care?"
17:59<@planetmaker>but I sure someone explained to me one reason back then
18:00<frosch123>the only usecase i know is to make different wagons available, which only differ in speed limit
18:00<frosch123>you know, that 10 year old bug in dbset :p
18:02<@planetmaker>I remember, yes
18:02<frosch123>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/nml/global_constants.py#L1144 <- also, one of the mysteries of nml :p
18:03<frosch123>what is the reasoning to add things like "newtrains", but not "wagonspeedlimits"?
18:04<frosch123>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/TTDPatchFlags <- many of them are useless, but the nml selection looks rather random to me
18:06<@planetmaker>hehe. The reasoning is lost in the misty past
18:07<@planetmaker>I do remember that we discussed at that time which features and switches we want to expose in NML and which better not for BAD FEATURE reasons
18:08<@planetmaker>but I think time showed that BAD FEATURE is hard to avoid by these means... and there's often also good reasons for them being accessible
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18:26<@peter1138>Hmmz
18:28-!-Yotson [~Yotson@2001:980:6ac8:1:39bf:4162:bdcb:477a] has quit [Quit: .]
18:29<@planetmaker>good night
18:29<@peter1138>nn
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18:36<andythenorth>bye
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18:53<Wolf01>'night
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19:00<NGC3982>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ofs
19:00<NGC3982>How are these sites used?
19:00<NGC3982>Am i to simply download each file one by one, or is this some form of magical terminal solution?
19:01<frosch123>if there is no bundle, then you use mercurial
19:01<frosch123>hg clone http://hg.openttdcoop.org/ofs
19:01<frosch123>for exampel
19:02<frosch123>you get the url from the repository tab
19:04<frosch123>oh, there is even a download button on the hg site
19:04<frosch123>https://hg.openttdcoop.org/ofs/archive/default.zip <- for example
19:04<@peter1138>Err, which key is del on a macbook? :S
19:06<frosch123>try some modifier key with backspace?
19:06<frosch123>i mean, they write "delete" on the backspace key
19:10<@peter1138>Ah, fn-backspace. Annoying.
19:10<frosch123>you are not supposed to work with machine
19:11<NGC3982>frosch123: Thanks.
19:11<Zuu>fn-backspace - how is that supposed to work with an external keyboard? Or are you supposed to have a special mac keyboard?
19:12<@peter1138>Probably the del key works...
19:17<Zuu>How does SL chunks work? Will failing to perform all reads in a Check_xxx method means that the file seek is off and thus corrupt further reading or can Check_xxx just load the inital stuff and skip the bottom stuff?
19:18<frosch123>i think you either need to skip the whole chunk, or read it as a whole
19:19<frosch123>but _date_check_desc for example ignores some things it is not interested in
19:20<NGC3982>frosch123: Have you used supybot with soap yourself?
19:20<frosch123>as a user :p
19:20<frosch123>not as an admin
19:20<NGC3982>I see.
19:20<NGC3982>I'm reading the manual, but i can't seem to find the actual way to connect supybot with the running server.
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19:22<Zuu>frosch123: _date_check_desc seems to do that by still declaring the size of the chunk and creating all Sl* instances.
19:22<frosch123>NGC3982: you need to set an admin password ni openttd.cfg
19:22<frosch123>and then also put that password into the soap config
19:22<frosch123>Zuu: yes, it reads all, but does not store all
19:22<Zuu>For checking a GS, it means I have to actually load the whole GS then as the GS loader internally loads stuff from the savegame.
19:23<frosch123>i doubt that
19:23<frosch123>i think the gs gets a string
19:23<frosch123>you can read the string from the save, and then ignore it
19:23<frosch123>no need to pass it to the gs
19:24<Zuu>I mean the savegame contains savegame data of the GS in the same chunk as the meta info of the GS.
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19:25<Zuu>Oh, now my program works when loading all GS data in Check :-)
19:26<frosch123>you can load the whole _game_script thingie, you do not need to use the result
19:26<frosch123>you can also define a _game_script_check, with some NULL maybe
19:26<NGC3982>frosch123: Is soap bound to openttd.cfg? I use separate re-named config files for my dedicated server.
19:27<frosch123>NGC3982: no idea, but ottd won't allow anyone to connect if there is no admin password
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19:28<frosch123>NGC3982: from the docs:
19:28<frosch123>config plugins.Soap.host 127.0.0.1
19:28<frosch123>config channel [#yourchan] plugins.Soap.<setting> <value>
19:28<Zuu>I was missing Game::Load(_game_saveload_version) which will load more stuff from the save than just what SlObject loads.
19:29<frosch123>so, config channel #yourchannel plugins.Soap.host yourip
19:30<frosch123>Zuu: are you sure you want to call the function?
19:30<frosch123>i would expect that breaks the currently running gs when opening the load game window in game
19:31<Zuu>I don't really want to call it, but not calling it means I get chuck size failed.
19:31<frosch123>well, you need some dummy method, which just reads the data
19:32<frosch123>ScriptInstance::LoadObjects but without the sq_xxx calls
19:33<Zuu>You are right about that. I just was hoping to not have to duplicate too much stuff.
19:33<Zuu>One way is a dry-run param though.
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19:33<frosch123>oi, actually
19:33<frosch123>there are vm != NULL checks in LoadObjects
19:34<frosch123>ah, true, if there is no script, the data is already discarded
19:34<frosch123>so, you can just use that functionality
19:35<frosch123>so, you only need a stripped version of ScriptInstance::Load (10 LOC), but you can reuse LoadObjects
19:35<Zuu>So maybe it just need a copy of ScriptInstance::Load that doesn't use the VM.
19:35<frosch123>ScriptInstance::LoadEmpty <- he, that does exactly that
19:35<Zuu>:-)
19:36<frosch123>it's all there, one just has to find it :p
19:37<Zuu>Its used to load MP games on clients if I understand the code correctly.
19:38<frosch123>makes sense
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19:40<Zuu>Works fine :-)
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19:56<frosch123>night
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20:20<Aaron_>Maybe you guys can helpme.
20:20<Aaron_>Im looking for a original 1.3.2 download. As the 4.4's have seem to completly gotten ride of some key reference files
20:21<Sylf>reference files?
20:21<Aaron_>Something, I have tried fixing the issue with no luck, but i havent dabbled in open TTD source much.
20:22<Aaron_>Ill show you an example shortly.
20:24<Aaron_>https://imgur.com/PjZJZ6l
20:24<Aaron_>Good example.
20:24<Aaron_>As you can see, and this is with versions 1.4.3 and 1.4.4, Not exactly sure what happened
20:25<Sylf>I'm not sure what you're trying to show us as a problem
20:26<Aaron_>OMFG
20:27<Aaron_>I feel like an idiot. I found my issue.
20:27<Sylf>X key?
20:27<Aaron_>Sometime between updateing from 1.3.2 to 1.4.3 transparency settings were enabled.
20:28<Aaron_>Most likely. Well thanks, im so sorry for wasting your time Sylf.
20:28<Sylf>you're welcome and don't worry
20:28<Aaron_>Well heres a good question, and im sure ill find it in the Update notes somewhere.
20:29<Aaron_>What happened to Monorail options?
20:29<Sylf>Are you playing with any NewGRF(add-on)s?
20:29<Aaron_>Yes, Lemme guess.... They disabled monorail options?
20:30<Sylf>many train sets don't have monorails or maglevs
20:30<Aaron_>Thats the od part, i have the Maglev, but no monorail.
20:30<Aaron_>Thats the odd part, i have the Maglev, but no monorail.
20:31<Sylf>sets like NARS or UKRS have some maglevs
20:31<Aaron_>Im running NARS
20:31<Aaron_>Havent tried UKRS
20:31<Sylf>NARS provides standard rail trains and maglevs.
20:32<Sylf>Maglev selection in NARS is slim.
20:32<Sylf>Either pax/mail only, or... maybe it has goods maglevs.
20:32<Sylf>That's about it. Same goes for UKRS 3.04
20:33<Aaron_>We talking about the same NARS?
20:33<Sylf>we should. there's only 1 NARS - North American
20:33<Aaron_>We might be, ive noticed the PAX.
20:34<Aaron_>Havent touched Maglav in NARS yet
20:34<Aaron_>Old fasioned, Start in 1831.
20:34<Sylf>anyway, these train sets disables all default trains, and place its own set of trains.
20:34<Sylf>so if the set doesn't include any monorail trains, then you won't see it in your game
20:34<Aaron_>Ok.
20:35<Sylf>so it's not because of upgrade from 1.3 to 1.4.
20:36<Aaron_>NARVS Seems to run fine as well, Anyrecommendations for transport trucks? NARVS covers PAX
20:37<Sylf>eGRVTS, hungarian set, long road vehicles etc...
20:38<Sylf>oh, and OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles
20:38<Sylf>and HEQS.
20:40<Aaron_>Which one would you prefur, The system im running is efficient, until half the trucks go out of date, and then im stuck using rail again.
20:40<Sylf>I don't use RVs
20:41<Sylf>They're all good.
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 31 00:00:36 2014