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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-11-06

---Logopened Thu Nov 06 00:00:45 2014
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00:43<DanMacK>Hey all
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01:46<andythenorth>herp
01:46<andythenorth>morning pikka chops
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02:04<supermop>yo andy
02:05<supermop>do the 1990-ish coaches in IH load slower or is it in my head?
02:08<@planetmaker>moin
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02:08<supermop>i guess i wont get the answer here then
02:12<Supercheese>"load slower" compared to what?
02:13<Pikka>so much for andys
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02:39<supermop>the previously available car
02:40<supermop>just noticed that suddenly all my trains are getting hopelessly behind their timetables
02:40<supermop>and whereas a 6 day stop was sufficient before, now it needs more like 16
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02:51<supermop>time to pay the piper
02:51<supermop>piper being autodesk
02:52<supermop>using a us credit card incurring fees on the .au store, where the software cost 50% more than on the US store...
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03:05<andythenorth>supermop: dunno
03:06<andythenorth>they all have loading speed 5
03:06<andythenorth>so maybe the higher capacity ones take longer to load
03:06<andythenorth>I never bother much about loading speeds
03:07<andythenorth>could fix
03:07<@planetmaker>loading speed is in units per time. Thus at same speed a bigger wagon takes longer to load
03:09<andythenorth>in that case the gen 3 coaches take nearly twice as long as gen 1
03:09<andythenorth>how do people notice this stuff? :P
03:09<supermop>messed up all my perfectly synchronized network!
03:10<andythenorth>which GS needs a synchronized network? o_O
03:10<@planetmaker>the human GS ;)
03:16<supermop>now to decide whether to downgrade to older coaches or pad timetables by 200%
03:17<Supercheese>better solution, mod the grf
03:17<Supercheese>load speeds too low? raise 'em
03:17<andythenorth>how do you make timetables work?
03:17*andythenorth has never experienced anything except dismay
03:18<andythenorth>‘travel for’ makes absolutely no sense to me
03:18<andythenorth>does the timetable modify the vehicle speed?
03:19<supermop>it certainly takes patience without the 24hr clock, but i find it easier to use timetables than not
03:19<Pikka>timetabling is silly
03:19<supermop>as infrastructure can be a lot sparer
03:19<andythenorth>how do you make it work with contention?
03:19<Pikka>if you need to space trains, make longer signal blocks. but you don't need to space trains.
03:20<andythenorth>you only need to space ships
03:20<andythenorth>and that doesn’t work anyway
03:20<andythenorth>unless you use full load
03:20<supermop>i just autofill then pad a bit
03:20<andythenorth>but if you’re using full load, why timetable?
03:20<Pikka>spaceships?
03:20<andythenorth>missing feature
03:20<supermop>i dont use full load
03:20<andythenorth>like tunnels, but vertical
03:20<supermop>not even for iron ore
03:21<andythenorth>new type: hypersonic transport
03:21<andythenorth>takes off vertically, disappears, lands vertically elsewhere on map
03:21<andythenorth>could just fake it with distant-join stations :P
03:21<supermop>just have two platforms at the mine, and loading train leaves 5 days after an empty one arrives
03:21<andythenorth>also pikka
03:21<andythenorth>hello
03:21<Pikka>hello
03:22<andythenorth>supermop: BUT THAT IS NOT 100% EFFICIENCY :O
03:22<andythenorth>wtf
03:22<supermop>andythenorth: one is always loading
03:22<andythenorth>imagine the utilisation figures
03:22<andythenorth>your cost per-ton must be awful
03:22<supermop>and steel mill or whatever is guaranteed to get a train every month
03:22<andythenorth>your tonnage per infrastructure tile must be awful
03:23<andythenorth>your ratio of payload to tare weight must be awful
03:23<andythenorth>THIS IS NOT GOOD
03:23<supermop>haha i dont know, i wouldnt mind if the trains drove around empty
03:23<andythenorth>so should the pax cars get dibbled on loading speeds then?
03:23<andythenorth>and what to?
03:23<supermop>just gotta have some trains moving around
03:24<andythenorth>constant loading total time for all generations
03:24<supermop>andythenorth: i dont know, they load faster than pkp set i think
03:24<andythenorth>or faster for older / newer
03:24<supermop>it makes sense to me - if its a new mk4'ish' whatever sure its long with only a small door
03:25<supermop>can play well with it either way
03:25<andythenorth>I’m dibbling it now
03:25<supermop>generally though if i a train takes 16 days to unload then load 20-30% of the people on board maybe it makes things less fun
03:26<andythenorth>you can’t have new version in your game though
03:26<supermop>assuming you want a town to get a train at least once a month (maybe i dont know how important that is to most people)
03:26<andythenorth>unless you don’t mind ottd whining a lot about mail cars
03:27<supermop>no mail in this game
03:27<supermop>unless GS makes me i dont bother with mail
03:28<supermop>anyway if you want 1-2 trains per month stopping at a station, you are going to need at least 2 platforms for those types of turnarounds
03:28<supermop>that said
03:28<supermop>i like that there is an actual functional difference between the cars, maybe there is value on being able to choose 3rd gen for long distance and 2nd for short
03:29<andythenorth>Pikka: shameful comment about UKRS :P
03:29<Pikka>nonsense :P
03:30<supermop>personally i'd be tempted to always play with super fast speeds because i cant be bothered often with that part of gameplay - just want trains coming and going from my towns in a pretty fashion
03:30<andythenorth>supermop: Iron Horse doesn’t bother with that choosing crap
03:30<andythenorth>well
03:30<andythenorth>it does
03:30<andythenorth>but if you want short distance, it’s in a town, so you buy a metro
03:31<supermop>andythenorth: yeah, and i find that i bit refreshing
03:31<andythenorth>and if it’s a small route between two small towns, you buy a railcar
03:31<andythenorth>stop making choices based on the small print
03:31<andythenorth>make them based on the big print :P
03:31<supermop>i made a train of one gridiron pulling 7 slammers
03:31<andythenorth>ha
03:32<andythenorth>with animated rivets
03:32<supermop>to get some better loading speeds
03:32<Pikka>andy: I don't know where to begin addressing nekomaster's criticisms of the new NARS. You have a go. :P
03:32<andythenorth>Pikka: I was baffled
03:32<andythenorth>about how to
03:32<supermop>its a new set people can use the old one right Pikka ?
03:32<andythenorth>I do enjoy neko
03:32<andythenorth>but I think he was drunk, high, or missing the point
03:32<andythenorth>supermop: is horse: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/
03:32<supermop>also i am from US and i dont really get regearing
03:33<andythenorth>also changes since 1.2.1 https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/revisions
03:33<supermop>as in, why that is a thing in a newgrf
03:33<Pikka>because BAD FEATURES
03:33<V453000>!!!
03:33<V453000>hello gentlemen
03:33<V453000>and andythenorth
03:33<supermop>i understand that a railroad's shops could put whatever gears they want in a diesel, but
03:33<Pikka>remove every 'yeti'
03:33<supermop>why in nars? idk i never played nars
03:33<V453000>:(
03:34<Pikka>ho ho
03:34<supermop>north american railroads are boring
03:34<Pikka>NARS is the best newgrf
03:34*V453000 has been complaining about max production of original industries, just got even more in my current yeti xd
03:34<Pikka>if you like samey diesels from 1967
03:34<Pikka>neko's main criticism seems to be that I removed too many samey diesels from 1967, there are now only about 20 of them.
03:35<supermop>growing up around those trains, waving at them as a kid in the early 80s,
03:35<supermop>they all looked and still look the same to me
03:35<V453000>-> slugs
03:35<Pikka>mmm sluges
03:35<Supercheese>they are the same
03:36<Supercheese>regearing was cute, not essential, but cute
03:36<Supercheese>fraught with problems too
03:36<Pikka>and only slightly completely game-breaking
03:36<andythenorth>Pikka: I dunno, is neko representative of standard human being?
03:36<Supercheese>mas o menos
03:37<supermop>now ive unfortunately got to the point where i can identify almost any car by sight, and BR diesel, etc etc, but still neither know nor care whether some big box is EMD or whoever
03:37<Pikka>well he won the "I don't like it, put it back the way it was" prize, which I was expecting someone to do.
03:37<Supercheese>I think at least some were expecting "old NARS but with autorefit"
03:37<supermop>was old nars fun though?
03:37<Supercheese>and possibly also "and with hidden trains exposed"
03:37<@peter1138>derpaherp
03:37<supermop>no offense Pikka
03:38<andythenorth>old NARS 2 was fun
03:38<supermop>i dont know because i never tried it
03:38<Supercheese>go try it then
03:38<Supercheese>still there
03:38<andythenorth>I played with it in ~every game for about 2 years
03:38<andythenorth>that or CanSet
03:38<andythenorth>but then those days are gone etc
03:38<Pikka>it was not fun, it was stupid and I have no idea why everyone kept playing it despite all the game-breaking BAD FEATURES. The fact that people insisted on keeping using it is the only reason I made the update.
03:38*Supercheese wonders how difficult it would be to add autorefit to old nars
03:39<Supercheese>someone already coded an addon methinks
03:39<andythenorth>Pikka: because I ignored regearing etc
03:39<Supercheese> override*
03:39<supermop>so really though, why not a set of just one hood diesel each 15 years?
03:39<andythenorth>well
03:40<andythenorth>I stopped playing when I realised that GP38 all the things
03:40<Pikka>absolutely. GP38 is the best.
03:40<Pikka>that's why Pineapple only has a GP38 :P
03:40<supermop>also that huge UP thing - just looks like any other up thing? blasphemous?
03:40<Supercheese>?
03:41<supermop>really long diesel
03:41<supermop>dont know if there is one in nars
03:41<Pikka>there is a DD40AX in NARS, yes.
03:41<Pikka>"EMD Centennial" iirc
03:42<supermop>i like that australia is not all hood units, though it seems to have some
03:42<Pikka>queensland is certainly all hood units, except the electrics
03:43<andythenorth>Queensland Horse
03:43<Supercheese>at least the HEP is gone
03:43<supermop>like the two that drove through the paliament deep bore station i was in here and had me coughing for 20 minutes
03:43<andythenorth>supermop: what year are you at in IH?
03:43<Supercheese>that was always bleh
03:43<supermop>92
03:43<andythenorth>HEP was a terrible feature
03:43<supermop>stopped
03:43<Supercheese>far too much realizmz
03:44<andythenorth>supermop: any comments?
03:44<Pikka>it was
03:44<Pikka>it was pre wagonrunningcosts though
03:44<supermop>andythenorth: yes but heading out door to dinner
03:44<andythenorth>what larks
03:45<supermop>load speed only issue
03:45<supermop>it was a SV game
03:45<supermop>but i got distracted with a passenger network and lost
03:46<andythenorth>oopsie
03:46<supermop>but i had shared running all lines freight and passenger
03:46<supermop>so vulcan too fast
03:47<supermop>except on container lines
03:47<supermop>and electra slower than vulcan odd but fine
03:47<supermop>i guess vulcan is deltic-ish
03:48<andythenorth>vulcan is standard engine
03:48<andythenorth>it’s best for most cases
03:48<supermop>a 160kmhish electric before 1990 would be ok
03:48<andythenorth>fair point
03:48<andythenorth>electrics are a bit nobbled until 90s
03:48<supermop>but i used electra for everything that wasnt a train of slammers
03:48<supermop>brb
03:49*andythenorth also bbling
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04:18<argoneus>ayy
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04:43<fjb>Moin
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04:56<Pikka>boin
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05:08<@peter1138>sup
05:11<lugo>nth
05:13<lugo>besides wiping away some crocodile tears for bad features going missing in certain grfs :')
05:14<andythenorth>my life is over
05:14<andythenorth>my grf collection is now worthless
05:15<andythenorth>http://www.lugnet.com/general/~1285/traumaticevents
05:16<lugo>so grfs are even getting worse in the future?!
05:18<andythenorth>grfs are dying
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05:19<b_jonas>NOOOOOO!
05:19<b_jonas>I like the grfs
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05:25<@peter1138>Crikey, they've been doing Star Wars lego since 1999? heh
05:25<andythenorth>ruined someone’s life that
05:25<@peter1138>Probably not George Lucas'
05:45<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> and what to? <-- "capacity/5" or something.
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>so whatever your capacity is, it'll always load in 5 steps
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05:49<@peter1138>How can I only have 20,503 audio tracks? :S
05:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that’s what I concluded too
05:56<andythenorth>boring, but eh
05:56<andythenorth>easy
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05:57<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: 20000 from your younger days when you grabbed everything you could get hold on, and then 500 that you actually knew you'd like before you got them :p
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06:00<@peter1138>Younger days :S
06:00<@peter1138>That must've been last month when I grabbed a load of (legal) torrents that were available.
06:01<@peter1138>I will get things that I've heard and liked 1 track from before, and things I haven't heard at all if I know the artist enough.
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't got new music in ages...
06:02<@peter1138>What about old music?
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>legal or otherwise
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>"new" as in "i didn't have it before"
06:03<@peter1138>I guess these days it is all streaming.
06:03<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, just checking :)
06:03<@peter1138>"new music is music you haven't heard before" etc
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>i also haven't listened to my old music as much
06:03<@peter1138>My newest music is... er...
06:03<@peter1138>Hmm, stuff that me & Belugas did the other night.
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>so other than the radio in the car, and occasional youtube flyby...
06:04<@peter1138>Hmm, an Ian Dury compilation for £1 from a charity shop.
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>no idea who that is
06:06<andythenorth>:o
06:07<supermop>i didnt bring any music down here
06:07<supermop>neither LPs nor HDD full of tracks
06:07<supermop>just listen to whatever fiancee is streaming on spotify
06:08<@peter1138>Yeah, all streaming as I said :)
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06:10<@peter1138>REASONS TO BE CHEERFUL, part 3
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06:13<@peter1138>hitttttttttttttttttttttt meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
06:13<@planetmaker>*bam*
06:14<@planetmaker>Feeling better now? :D
06:14<@peter1138>with your rhythm stick
06:14<@planetmaker>oh, you should have said before ;)
06:17<@peter1138>Heh, HW cursor...
06:18<@peter1138>Nice idea, bad implmentation :p
06:33<supermop>Pikka: whats the best way to buy ram or an ssd while down here?
06:35<supermop>does newegg ship here?
06:39<supermop>seems it does
06:44<supermop>hmm anyone have an opinion between sandisk/intel/samsung?
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06:56<Xaroth|Work>samsung/intel/sandisk, in that order
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07:05<Eddi|zuHause>i have a samsung SSD
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>not noticed any problems
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07:17<argoneus>I have a kingston SSD
07:17<argoneus>rip
07:20<andythenorth>loads of Crucial ones
07:20<andythenorth>they seem to have a slowdown ~12 months
07:20<andythenorth>which might be a defect, or lack of TRIM support on OS X
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07:29<@peter1138>OS X doesn't do TRIM? :S
07:29<andythenorth>well
07:29<@peter1138>That reminds me
07:29<supermop_>why do i have an underscore now and why did i just see myself quit?
07:30<andythenorth>glitch in the matrix
07:30<@peter1138>$ sudo fstrim -v /
07:30<@peter1138>:)
07:30<andythenorth>it does TRIM, but only if you have a stock apple drive, or you enable it with 3rd party utility
07:30<@peter1138>Ah, Apple...
07:30<andythenorth>but then you have to read loads of agonised forum threads
07:30<andythenorth>about how it broke your drive
07:30<@peter1138>/: 9910779904 bytes were trimmed
07:30<andythenorth>or about how not using it broke your driev
07:30<@peter1138>Heh
07:31<andythenorth>I just assumed my SSD was disposable and enabled it
07:31<andythenorth>backups ftw
07:31<@peter1138>I suppose I could change my / to be mounted with discard.
07:31<@peter1138>Yeah, assume any disk is disposable really.
07:31<andythenorth>really, £250 / year to keep ALL MY STUFF EVER
07:31<andythenorth>is nothing
07:31<@peter1138>I have issues with older servers that take 80pin SCA SCSI drives :(
07:32<@peter1138>Because, you know, replacing stuff costs money... sigh.
07:32<andythenorth>replace the server
07:32<andythenorth>solved
07:32<@peter1138>Yes, you'd think.
07:33<@peter1138>Oh for god's sake, they're still accusing Saville of more shit.
07:35<argoneus>can you put SSDs into RAID?
07:36<argoneus>to mirror
07:36<argoneus>I guess you can huh
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>why not?
07:36<andythenorth>of course you can
07:36<andythenorth>common cloud hosting set up
07:37<@peter1138>[ 2.421812] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 8448300 512-byte logical blocks: (4.32 GB/4.02 GiB)
07:37<@peter1138>JESUS FUCKING CHRIST
07:37<@peter1138>Why is that still in service :S
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>that is so ancient they produced disk sizes in GiB?
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07:38<Eddi|zuHause>just copy that entire thing on a virtual server
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>nobody will ever notice :p
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>like in star trek 9 :p
07:43<Pikka>supermop_, some of us go to shops and stuff like it's the 19th century
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07:44<Pikka>that got rid of him.
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07:55<Eddi|zuHause>that got rid of him as well
07:56<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Star Trek ..9? :E
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08:00<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, remember this line: 12:31 <@peter1138> I have issues with older servers that take 80pin SCA SCSI drives :(
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes
08:00<@peter1138>That means ALL those drives are only in GB capacities.
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>what i meant was that's in 1024 based units, not in 1000
08:01<@peter1138>(mostly 36 and 72)
08:02<@peter1138>Pfft, that's Linux for you.
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>nowadays when you buy a 3TB drive, it's 3 000 000 000 000 bytes
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>which is like 10% off actual 3TiB
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>but yours is actual 4GiB
08:10<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: do you mean 80%?
08:10<b_jonas>anyway, yes
08:11<b_jonas>that's why my three hard disks in the home computer, with capacities 250GB, 1TB, 2TB resp, give a total capacity of 3.0TiB
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08:31<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: for each prefix you lose 2.4% (1.024-1), so K: 2.4%, M: 4.8%, G: 7.2%, T: 9.6%
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>these values differ slightly if you calculate with 1/1.024
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08:36<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: you'll notice that 250GB is around 10% of 3TB
08:38<andythenorth>computers
08:38<andythenorth>are silly
08:38<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>it's the same kind of BAD FEATURE as rounding supermarket prices to .99
08:42<NGC3982>"legend för godsflöden"
08:42<NGC3982>Can't find the English translation. That Goods matrix in the map sub menue. How long has it been there? Haven't seen it before.
08:42<NGC3982>And i can't figure out what it ..does.
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>it shows you the cargodist network for that cargo
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>and finding translations is easy, grep src/lang/<language>.txt for your text, look up the ID it's given there, and then grep for that ID in english.txt
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08:56<argoneus>but rounding prices to .99 has a psychological effect
08:56<argoneus>they don't do it for lulz
08:56<argoneus>did you guys know
08:57<argoneus>that insane amounts of research go even into things like how high to put things on a shelf in a store
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>sure, so is rounding HD sizes 10% up
08:57<@Belugas>good day
08:57<argoneus>or that in most supermarkets, the things people buy the most, e.g. bread, are in the furthest corner of the shop usually
08:57<argoneus>so you have to walk through all the other things and you pick them up
08:57<@peter1138>Heh, if I buy something on Bandcamp I deliberately round up to the nearest £.
08:58<@peter1138>Because fuck 99ps
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>i once returned something costing 15,99 to a shop and bought something for 19,99, and the cashier got horribly confused when the difference came out as 4€ instead of 5€
08:59<@peter1138>:-)
08:59<SpComb>peter1138: a bit of parted and rsync and grub-install and she'll be good
09:00<@peter1138>parted what?
09:00<SpComb>the virtual machine disk
09:00<@peter1138>What virtual machine disk?
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>the one that you're copying the ancient server to
09:01<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Isn't the HD sizes thing a difference between kB and kiB?
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: yes
09:02<blathijs>And isn't that more like 24/1024*100=2,3% up?
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>you arguing about 3rd significant digits?
09:03<andythenorth>99p was to cause the till to be opened
09:03<andythenorth>allegedly
09:04<blathijs>EddizuHause │ sure, so is rounding HD sizes 10% up <-- No, I was responding to that. But I should have read further back before opening my mound
09:04<blathijs>Carry on.
09:05<@peter1138>And virtual disks would be using either files or lvm, not fucking around with partitions on a physical volume.
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that sounds like a stupid reason
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09:06<SpComb>well, you have a partition table within the VM disk, to have it boot
09:06<andythenorth>might be urban myth
09:06<@peter1138>SpComb, not sure... what you are talking about.
09:06<@peter1138>The disk is already partitioned...
09:07<andythenorth>http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/2359/the-origin-of-99-cents
09:07<@peter1138>andythenorth, nothing to do with option a till, that's ridiculous.
09:08<andythenorth>comes up in most of the reference material though
09:08<andythenorth>i.e. the 2 things I found on google :P
09:08<andythenorth>one of which is probably based on the other
09:09<@peter1138>Hmm, Zalman went tits up.
09:10<blathijs>peter1138: Pity, they made good stuff
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's the first time i ever heard that.
09:15<andythenorth>sounds similar to the reason we have QWERTY
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>while the psychological argument is perfectly logical
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>the open till argument is just terrible
09:19<blathijs>The psychological argument is probably unlikely for people that under-estimate their own influentuability (?)
09:21<argoneus>well
09:22<argoneus>in theory
09:22<argoneus>you can sell 800 TB disks
09:22<argoneus>and in fineprint just write
09:22<argoneus>(we define 1 byte as 2 bits)
09:22<argoneus>and it's not lying
09:24<@planetmaker>no, you cannot do that
09:24<@planetmaker>as it would be ruled as deception and illegal
09:24<blathijs>In the end, it's about what the judge would think about it (and you can guess what they'll rule about something like that)
09:25<argoneus>but well
09:25<argoneus>a byte is not 8 bits
09:25<argoneus>necessarily*
09:25<argoneus>so if it wasn't fineprint
09:25<@planetmaker>maybe you would even be charged with fraud, thus not only civil law, but criminal law
09:25<argoneus>it's valid :<
09:25<argoneus>even if you called it
09:26<@planetmaker>you cannot simply re-define words in your language
09:26<argoneus>it's not re-defining
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09:26<argoneus>a byte is not defined as 8 bits
09:26<argoneus>you can define a byte to be 30 bits if you want
09:26<argoneus>there isn't a bit count definition
09:27<argoneus>so if you said "1000 TB disk with 2-bit bytes!"
09:27<argoneus>it's not even fraud, because you are not deceiving anyone
09:27<argoneus>(imho)
09:28<@planetmaker>luckily it's not for you to decide that ;)
09:28<argoneus>not "luckily"
09:28<__ln__>argoneus: the french are prepared for that.
09:28<argoneus>I have no intent of deceiving uninformed people
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: it's definitely fraud
09:28<argoneus>it's just that I don't see how it wouldn't stand legally
09:29<argoneus>or is there such a thing as "abusing people being uninformed / dumb"?
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>or deceiving advertisment
09:29<andythenorth>hrm
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09:29<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: at least the german law says "there may be nothing 'surprising' or unusual in the fine print"
09:29<argoneus>it's no more fraud imho than selling an item for twice the price and having a 50% sale
09:30<argoneus>it just feels unethical
09:30<@planetmaker>that's different. There you don't promise a property of the product you don't actually fulfill
09:30<argoneus>but no one can tell you "a byte must be 8 bits", because it doesn't
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>but it does.
09:30<argoneus>it doesn't
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>it does
09:30<argoneus>there's a reason the term "octal" exists
09:30<@planetmaker>there's also a reason a difference between technical terms and every day language exists
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>there is a technical definition on what a byte is
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>people expect that to be the same everywhere
09:31<argoneus>yes
09:31<argoneus>but it doesn't say anywhere a byte is 8 bits
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>everything deviating from that is misleading/surprising/unusual and thus not allowed
09:31<@planetmaker>that's the common definition of byte. You'll find it everywhere where you look up the meaning of byte, argoneus
09:31<argoneus>The byte /ˈbaɪt/ is a unit of digital information in computing and telecommunications that most commonly consists of eight bits.
09:32<argoneus>emphasis on "most commonly"
09:32<@planetmaker>and then you find there also "sometimes, it was used with other number of bits..." which are definitely edgy edge cases
09:32<argoneus>it's not really edgy edge
09:32<argoneus>ASCII is 7 bits
09:32<argoneus>an ascii byte is 7 bits
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>no
09:32<@planetmaker>no
09:32*argoneus shrugs
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>ASCII says there are 7 bits of data in your 8 bit byte
09:33<@planetmaker>even the 8088 had 8 bit bytes. with the lower 7 bits being ascii
09:33<argoneus>ascii used to be 7 bit
09:33<argoneus>before they made it standard 8
09:33<argoneus>iirc
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>some protocols like SATA may transfer 10 bits for each 8 bit of data
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>so 600 mbit/s are actually 60 MB/s
09:34<argoneus>anyway
09:35<argoneus>so laws / courts cover common sense?
09:35<argoneus>as in, the guy claiming "I thought a byte was 8 bits" would stand in court?
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes. mostly
09:35<blathijs>argoneus: Even if a byte is not necessarily 8 bits (not sure about that) - it is _almost always_ 8 bits and can be expected to be 8 bits, which is what counts in advertising / commercial agreements
09:35<@planetmaker>I would bet on that, yes
09:35<argoneus>I was never in court, so I don't know
09:35<argoneus>(nor was I interested in it that much)
09:36<argoneus>so the consensus is
09:36<argoneus>for me or you a byte may not be 8 bits, but for my mother a byte is 8 bits, and if someone tried to trick my mother on that, they'd probably lose?
09:36<@planetmaker>if you deviate from the norm, you have to clearly and explicitly note that. Which cannot mean it's only in the fine print
09:36<@planetmaker>in Europe they would
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>many european countries also have laws that you can't advertise stuff in imperial units but must use SI units
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>which most notably affected computer monitors, which for some reason were advertised in inches instead of cm, like TV monitors always were
09:43<argoneus>I have no idea how large the equivalent of a 17 inch display is
09:43<argoneus>in cm
09:44<V453000>666
09:44<Xaroth|Work>2.54cm * inches
09:44<Xaroth|Work>give or take 43.2cm
09:49<@peter1138>Yeah, the conversion is obvious, but the visualization of it isn't.
09:53<@planetmaker>two hand spans
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10:02<@peter1138>Cubits!
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10:10<@planetmaker>qbits :)
10:10<@planetmaker>means you know it all. You just can't access that knowledge :P
10:14<@peter1138>:)
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12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27057 trunk/src/lang/latin.txt (2014-11-06 17:45:32 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>latin - 2 changes by Supercheese
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13:27<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure that's only a minor oversight :p https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1wD2RxIMAAnZTw.jpg:orig
13:30<@Alberth>?
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>that flag hanging from a building somewhat resembles... other flags... that were hanging from buildings :p
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13:31<Eddi|zuHause>especially in the center of berlin :p
13:31<frosch123>it is only red and white, not black
13:31<@Alberth>hmm, ok
13:32<andythenorth>is cat red and white?
13:32<@Alberth>apparently
13:32<frosch123>after blending that's the most likely colour
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>there probably are cats that are red and white
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>if you count orange as red
13:32<@Alberth>close enough :)
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>but only female cats may be red white and black
13:33*andythenorth biab
13:33<andythenorth>what useful info for you all :P
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13:52<@peter1138>Why is CAN's Monster Movie album labeled "THE CAN"? :S
13:53<@peter1138>(And I expect all German people, at least, to have heard of CAN)
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14:01<andythenorth>right
14:01<andythenorth>let’s make GS
14:01<andythenorth>what do I do?
14:02<andythenorth>do I need to understand programming?
14:02<@peter1138>Probably.
14:02<@Alberth>start from nocargoal or SV ?
14:03<andythenorth>Zuu has a minimal GS
14:04<@Alberth>that likely does nothing
14:08*andythenorth needs a collaborator
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: so what is CAN?
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14:14*andythenorth has yet another GS idea
14:14<andythenorth>5 Year Plan
14:14<andythenorth>player is issued a number of challenges to be completed in 5 years
14:14<andythenorth>with penalties if failed
14:15<andythenorth>then next 5 year plan is issued
14:15<@Alberth>start with one challenge at a time?
14:16-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
14:16<Wolf01>hi hi
14:17<andythenorth>Alberth: probably a simple one initially
14:17<andythenorth>I can’t see how to ensure the first challenge is completable
14:18<andythenorth>unless it’s a boring pax transport goal
14:18<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: apparently a german band from the 70s, which got popular in uk
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14:18<@Alberth>andythenorth: put it in some range, distance between A and B, amount between C and D
14:18<frosch123>can't say i know any of the titles
14:19<andythenorth>GS design is really unappetising because it happens in abstract
14:19<andythenorth>no idea of map, industries, cargos, locations, vehicles, dates etc
14:19<@Alberth>for bonus, you can check if there are huge mountains in between
14:20<@Alberth>but players are quite inventive if you give them room
14:20<Wolf01>mh, steam is teasing me to play railroad tycoon 2
14:20<andythenorth>don’t bother
14:20<andythenorth>it’s boring imho
14:20<@Alberth>ie transport X tonnes of Y can be done anywhere at the map, players will find a good spot
14:21<andythenorth>Alberth: true, it’s just lacking something
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14:21<andythenorth>“El Presidente commands you to deliver 5,000 tonnes of steel to Jingleville”
14:21<andythenorth>is more precise
14:21<@Alberth>a la SV
14:21<andythenorth>yup
14:21<Taytay>Hello !
14:21<@Alberth>hi hi
14:21<Taytay>I'm trying to use 32bpp with openttd 1.4.4
14:22<Taytay>I don't find any uptodate doc
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: oh, 70's... no, that's the *wrong* germany then :)
14:22<@Alberth>well, only specifying a detination leaves all sources free for choosing
14:22<@Alberth>Taytay: docs? just download zbase or a newgrf with 32bpp sprites
14:23<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: usually i also know tracks from the 70s, but non of these
14:23<andythenorth>hmm
14:23<andythenorth>shall I call this 5 Year Plan?
14:23<andythenorth>or something else?
14:23*andythenorth needs a repo
14:24<andythenorth>this is bad news for newgrfs btw :P
14:24<Taytay>Alberth: thanks ! zbase have all standard sprites ?
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: sure, i know *some* songs from the 70s, but it's not really my area of interest
14:24<@Alberth>mkdir 5yp; cd 5yp; hg init :p
14:24<frosch123>i am sure leading digit will breaks stuff again
14:24<@Alberth>Taytay: it's a base set, I 'd hope so :)
14:24<frosch123>hmm, though maybe 2cc already broke those
14:25<@Alberth>hmm, p5y wouldbe safer I guess :)
14:25<frosch123>andythenorth: there was a bureaucracy ai
14:25<@Alberth>bureaucrazy :p
14:25<frosch123>only built routes after being instructed via subsidy
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: every railroad tycoon without dispatcher operation (signals) is probably useless.
14:25<andythenorth>how rare
14:25<frosch123>so, bureaucracy gs?
14:26<andythenorth>Wolf01: RT3 much better imo
14:26<Taytay>Alberth: cool ! thanks ! (i played openttd old version like 0.4/0.5... I have a lot of things to rediscover :)
14:26<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause, that's why I'm stuck with OTTD
14:26<andythenorth>RT2 is a sub-par OpenTTD
14:26<andythenorth>I spent all my time wondering where the other transport types were
14:26<Taytay>andythenorth: ;)
14:26<andythenorth>or watching it crash
14:26<@Alberth>Taytay: no worries, it's still about making train networks :)
14:26<andythenorth>frosch123: what does it do? o_O
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>i probably spent half an hour in RT2...
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>and then i got fed up
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>with all the economy and share crap
14:27<andythenorth>yeah, but It Has Rotation
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>and not enough train stuff
14:27<Taytay>Alberth: :) I think there was less train signals
14:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you’re thinking of RT3
14:27<andythenorth>with economy
14:27<Taytay>no path ones
14:27<Wolf01>I have RT3 too, but I need to dl it
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>i have never played RT3
14:27<frosch123>andythenorth: instruct you to build specifiy routes, ideally screwing you over with the requirements
14:28<frosch123>like picking industries with 30 height level difference
14:28<@Alberth>Taytay: yeah, the old block and pre-signals are now obsolete :)
14:28<Wolf01>I have Sid Meier's Railroads! too
14:28<Taytay>Alberth: oki ! thanks !
14:28<andythenorth>frosch123: winner
14:28<frosch123>andythenorth: how about picking routes by checking the linear connection between them for obstacles
14:28<andythenorth>headache.gs
14:29<frosch123>and then pick them with water, mountains and towns in the path
14:29<Wolf01>the funny thing is that I only played (O)TTD, LoMo and a little Simutrans
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: or use a pathfinder lib to check the "best" route?
14:29<@Alberth>andythenorth: or giving the user a few alternatives, so he can ignore the impossible ones
14:29<frosch123>yeah, check that there is no good route :p
14:29<Taytay>Alberth: I don't know if I can play with 32bpp ... I'm too old :(
14:29<andythenorth>offer 3, require 2 to be met to advance
14:30<frosch123>Taytay: you picked the wrong guy to complain about age :p
14:30<@Alberth>Taytay: I don't like 32bpp
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: "EvilGS": next goal is always the one that is furthest away from your current network
14:30<Taytay>Alberth: :)
14:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that wouldn’t last long :P
14:30<andythenorth>you’d span links across the map really fast
14:30<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: "far" is no good metric
14:30<Taytay>There is any webinterface to manage server
14:30<frosch123>it should be "near, but hard to reach"
14:31<Taytay>which can who map (like google map)
14:31<Taytay>which can show map (like google map)
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14:31<Taytay>?
14:31<Wolf01>it would be nice
14:33<Taytay>Wolf01: OH, okki. So, is there any python librairie to read saved games ?
14:33<@Alberth>unlikely, the save game format constantly changes
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>Taytay: there may be patches in the forum that you can use to export the map from a running server
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>Taytay: or there is "pngtile" which can process a giant screenshot
14:34<@Alberth>frosch123: do you have a FS number nearby for a UI redesign?
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>server may need special arguments to be able to output a screenshot
14:35<frosch123>Taytay: there is http://pngtile.qmsk.net/terom/openttd/20121229/
14:35<frosch123>Alberth: https://wiki.openttd.org/GUI_re-arrangement
14:35<@Alberth>oh, how convenient, thanks!
14:36-!-oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
14:40<andythenorth>\o/
14:40<andythenorth>UI :)
14:40-!-KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-72-94-147-76.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:41<Taytay>frosch123: Thanks !
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14:44*andythenorth fixes webforms
14:44<andythenorth>no GS for andythenorth
14:44<andythenorth>it is some spectacularly ugly python
14:51*peter1138 puts his penis away
14:53<Wolf01>yay, I just beated last year's record of lego sets purchased
14:56<@Alberth>and Christmas has still to come :)
14:57<Wolf01>no, this weekend has still to come
14:57<Wolf01>and the next one and so on
14:57<Wolf01>until Christmas
14:58<Wolf01>my advent calendar has 24 weeks
14:59<andythenorth>peter1138: not a minute too late either
14:59<andythenorth>Wolf01: you bought 0?
15:00<Wolf01>nah, just 17
15:03*andythenorth lost in music
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15:49<@peter1138>I should wipe all evidence of rgb company colours.
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15:55<@peter1138>Hmm, does NARS 2.5 make use of any railtypes?
16:03<andythenorth>not afaik
16:03<andythenorth>elrail :P
16:10<NGC3982>"Nars" sounds like a high school insult.
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16:20<@peter1138>RailRoad Tycoon (TM) - Version 455.02
16:20<@peter1138>YEAH
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16:38<@peter1138>Heh, didn't know the Del shortcut came from TTD.
16:39<frosch123>really? i thought that would belong to sticky windows
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>i think i've come across that before OpenTTD
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>but i never actually played pure TTD
16:41<@peter1138>Playing it now, in dosbox.
16:41<@peter1138>Time to fix some bugs ;)
16:44*NGC3982 owns TTD in big box.
16:57<__ln__>http://fi8.eu.apcdn.com/full/125757.jpg
17:07<Rubidium>double ROT13 is way better
17:10<frosch123>where is that from? :p
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17:14*Rubidium wonders why such information needs to be shared with merchants in any case
17:15<frosch123>oh my, googling for base64 encryption results in a lot of scary stuff
17:15<frosch123>code samples, and peoply who are thankful for them
17:15<Rubidium>(at least here the most common method of internet payment doesn't send any bank account information to the merchent besides the bank you want to pay with)
17:16<frosch123>well, i guess credit cards are an about 80 year old technology
17:17<Rubidium>yup... I only use creditcards in less developed countries ;)
17:17<Rubidium>sorry Belugas for not being able to pay in many places here with your creditcard
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17:18<frosch123>http://tech.chitgoks.com/2008/03/24/php-encrypt-decrypt-using-base64/ <- hmm, i don't think the comments are trolling
17:18<frosch123>home-made encryption in php :)
17:20<frosch123>i wonder whether the author came up with that on their own, or whether they got it from a medieval book
17:20<andythenorth>"I forgot where I got this from but these 2 methods are pretty handy."
17:20<@peter1138>I've seen a version of that from ASP.
17:21<Rubidium>well... that encryption is at least better than plain base64_encode or ROT13
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17:26<@peter1138>Yes, it's used by SagePay as a "if your language is too stupid to have libraries, you can protect values with this" system.
17:26<@peter1138>Hence, ASP :p
17:26<@peter1138>Where encryption would be done horribly in VB, or implemented as a COM object, so still done horribly.
17:29<argoneus>ayy
17:30*andythenorth for bed
17:30<andythenorth>bye
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17:45<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Fri Nov 07 00:00:46 2014