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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-11-08

---Logopened Sat Nov 08 00:00:48 2014
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01:54<andythenorth>bonsoir
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03:45<Wolf01>hi o/
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04:07<@peter1138>lol drama
04:12<V453000>nice
04:13<@planetmaker>I closed the drama
04:13<@planetmaker>show is over. Nothing to see. You can walk on, please ;)
04:13<V453000>I love to see how people think the newgrfs are made for them and are their property
04:14<V453000>it is just awesome
04:14<@planetmaker>yeah
04:14<@planetmaker>ridiculous really
04:17<andythenorth>bridge burned
04:19<andythenorth>wasn’t even good drama :(
04:19<andythenorth>but also time to go out to football training :P
04:20<andythenorth>if it’s 0.5 miles to football training, how much should I get paid when I transport 2 children there?
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04:20<@planetmaker>andythenorth, two smiles and thank you exactly
04:20<@planetmaker>maybe four
04:22<andythenorth>that’s optimistic
04:22<V453000>simuscape drama =D
04:22<andythenorth>also if there is football training 0.25 miles from my house, I shouldn’t get paid any more for going 0.5 miles
04:22<andythenorth>similarly, I should stop drinking australian wine
04:22<@planetmaker>andythenorth, it's optimistic. But you asked for how much you *should* get paid. Not how much you *will* get paid ;)
04:22<andythenorth>and only drink english wine
04:22<andythenorth>because we only want the nearest source
04:23<andythenorth>also bye
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04:24<Supercheese>is there any English wine?
04:24-!-zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd
04:25<Eddi|zuHause>growing wine is really difficult above 51°N
04:25<Supercheese>I would indeed think so
04:25<@peter1138>Wine is grown?
04:26-!-ginko_ [~ginko@0001b68f.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
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04:27<Supercheese>semantics...
04:27<ginko>totally excited about the existence of such a game (and a still active user base)
04:27<ginko>chances of liking it (former Sim City 4 addict)
04:27<ginko>?
04:27<Supercheese>OpenTTD rocks
04:28<@planetmaker>wine is grown. It grows grapes. Which are turned in wine. Isn't it?
04:28<@peter1138>Wine grows grapes?
04:28<@planetmaker>hey, it was an honest language question, peter1138 ;)
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04:28<@peter1138>Wine is made from things that grow.
04:29<@peter1138>Like ketchup is made from tomatos (and other stuff), but isn't grown.
04:29<@planetmaker>ginko, you mean liking it by clicking on something on facebook or google+ or so?
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>the plants are also called "wine" in german
04:29<@planetmaker>peter1138, but isn't the plant called 'wine', too?
04:29<@peter1138>No, they're vines.
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>as are the grapes
04:29<@peter1138>Grapevines.
04:29<@planetmaker>ah. ok :)
04:30<Wolf01>I always thought that plants grow wine flasks
04:30<ginko>planetmaker no, chances of me liking the game, formerly having enjoyed games like sim city 4 ;) just installed it
04:30<@peter1138>Wolf01, that was my mental image :-)
04:30<@peter1138>Wine can also be made from things other than grapes.
04:30<@planetmaker>:)
04:30<@planetmaker>yes, indeed. And that can be very tasty :) Mead...
04:30<Eddi|zuHause>that is not called wine then :p
04:30<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, it is?
04:30<@planetmaker>ginko, then I'd say: enjoy! :)
04:31<Eddi|zuHause>maybe Äppelwoi :p
04:31<@planetmaker>for multiplayer fun join the coop welcome server or one of the two vanilla reddit servers
04:31<@planetmaker>Pflümli
04:32<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, it is still called wine, in English.
04:32<@planetmaker>also in German
04:32<Supercheese>yeah, you get stuff like plum wine
04:32<Supercheese>or other fruits
04:33<@peter1138>Anyway, apparently there are vineyards in the UK.
04:33<@peter1138>So yes, you can get English (grape) wine.
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04:36<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i think the difference between "wine" and "vine" only exists in english
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04:38<Supercheese>vinum vs. vitis in latin
04:38-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
04:38<@peter1138>Grapejuice...
04:40-!-Pikkaphone [~yaaic@203-206-161-219.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd
04:40<@peter1138>I will pronounce Pikkaphone to rhyme with Persephone.
04:41<Pikkaphone>you should.
04:41-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-162.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
04:42<Supercheese>a Pikkaphone cacophony
04:42<Pikkaphone>Penelope Pikkaphone.
04:45<Pikkaphone>hmm
04:46<Pikkaphone>reddit has decided WAS is superior to av8 because liveries.
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04:47<@peter1138>Cargo subtype liveries, isn't it?
04:47<@peter1138>We should remove cargo subtypes. that's a BAD FEATURE.
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04:49<V453000>that comparison surprised me tbh
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04:52<Pikkaphone>av9 is obviously the best plane set.
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>not among the sets i ever used.
04:56<Pikkaphone>you're missing out, then. :)
04:58<V453000>the question is whether eddi ever played the game? :P
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05:01<@peter1138>I'm waiting for pikka's updated no-nonsense road vehicle nad ship sets...
05:01<Pikkaphone>me too
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05:04<@peter1138>Huh... weird bug.
05:05<@peter1138>I put a symlink to a directory in my heightmap directory, and OpenTTD shows me the content of the symlink directory at the same level as the symlink.
05:06<Pikkaphone>handy
05:06<@peter1138>It actually is, but seems wrong :P
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05:13<Eddi|zuHause>may be the piece of code that merges the content_download directory with the regular directory
05:19-!-oskari892 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
05:19<@peter1138>Hmm, 10cc treatment for busses? (Throw in a Pacer for free!)
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05:19<@Alberth>10 company colours ?
05:21<@peter1138>Yes, that...
05:23*peter1138 ponders adapting the anti-desync newgrf stuff to allow some variables in some cases... :S
05:24<@planetmaker>such as...?
05:25<@peter1138>George's BAD FEATURE of adding weight depending on cargo amount.
05:25<George>peter1138: why is it bad?
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>you could just make sure callback results are saved instead of recalculated on load
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05:28<George>peter1138: > We should remove cargo subtypes. - and what to use instead?
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>one discussion was about "views" during purchase, which cannot be changed afterwards
05:29<@peter1138>?
05:29<George>This would not fit xUSSR set
05:30<George>in xUSSR set many liveries appear later!
05:30<George>So the view should be chnaged in deport
05:31<George>In most cases liveries apper in 1990-2000, while vehicles ended production in 1970-th
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05:37<@peter1138> 73 /* Cached wagon override spritegroup */
05:37<@peter1138> 74 const struct SpriteGroup *cached_override;
05:38<@peter1138>How do you save things like that?
05:38<@peter1138>Admittedly that isn't variable...
05:40<V453000>wait do you assume players to keep old vehicles, and even care about them so much later on to change their liveries even if they cant even buy the train anymore? :D
05:40<V453000>that is insane
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>i thought about a "second hand market" where you buy out-of-production vehicles with reduced lifetime
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05:46<George>V453000: Welcome to Russia :D
05:51-!-FLHerne [~flh@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: There's a real world out here!]
05:54<V453000>I think it would be much nicer to just randomize the livery of the train upon purchase
05:55<V453000>that way people could see all of your atrwork in good probability, not have half hidden because they arent buying the train at that age anymore
05:55<V453000>and it looks nice, I must say
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05:59<Eddi|zuHause>but that's going to be a hassle when i want the same livery for all vehicles of a certain line
06:00<V453000>well then I would randomize it AND add all liveries as subrefits, but from the start, not 30 years afterwards :P
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>but... the r-word...
06:02<Wolf01>randomize?
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>the other r-word :p
06:02<@peter1138>I never look in the refit list for liveries in the first place.
06:03<V453000>XD
06:04<V453000>it is a nice addition peter1138, especially for local town transport, having various colours is great
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>that could be done with company colours for groups
06:05<V453000>what?
06:06<V453000>groups can have their own CC now?
06:06<@peter1138>CC isn't exactly the same as liveries.
06:06<@peter1138>And no, they can't.
06:07<@peter1138>Hmm, ConsistChanged is still called :S
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's not indeed
06:07<V453000>then what did you mean by CC per groups?
06:07<@peter1138>V453000, by making it possible, clearly.
06:08<V453000>XD
06:08<V453000>XD
06:08<@peter1138>V453000, that was Eddi|zuHause's way of making a feature request :)
06:08<V453000>XD
06:08<V453000>with full RGB CCs please =D
06:08<V453000>I hereby AGREE with Eddi :P
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>how dare you!
06:08<@peter1138>I updated RGB CC
06:09<@peter1138>Then I think I should scrap it.
06:09<@peter1138>It's so bad :(
06:09<Pikkaphone>doesn't work with pineapples, innit.
06:09<@peter1138>Indeed so.
06:10<@peter1138>It works with zBase but still looks terrible.
06:11<Jinassi>does this men there's a hint of light that in near/far future more companies will inhabit a map? Even a small chance is a light I enjoy to look at.
06:11<@peter1138>No.
06:11<Pikkaphone>no, Jinassi.
06:11<V453000>XD
06:11<V453000>DENIED
06:12<@peter1138>Despite what you may have heard, the number of companies isn't limited by the number of colours.
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>there are already more companies on a map
06:12<Zuu>Who needs more than 14 companies? :-p
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>it was increased from 8 to 15 a while back
06:13*Jinassi applies for a monk
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>not the doctor who kind of monk, i hope
06:15<@peter1138>Could possibly up the company limit to 29 with some bit-shuffling for tram tracks...
06:16<@peter1138>I guess there are bits free now with the type/height split.
06:16<argoneus>ayy
06:17<@peter1138>MOOpenTTD :S
06:17-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d0093ef.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #openttd
06:17<@peter1138>Or is it MMOpenTTD?
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06:18<Eddi|zuHause>so 1000 people on one server, and the other 1000 servers are still completely empty?
06:19<@peter1138>Yup
06:19-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6D79F.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
06:19<@peter1138>Just build tracks off the edge of the map...
06:19-!-oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
06:19<@peter1138>Join them up with another server...
06:20<Zuu>I think it is MMO. But you can still make it MMOOpenTTD to get a nice double-O name :-)
06:25<argoneus>if you want it to be mmo
06:25<argoneus>just call it OpenTTD Online
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06:29<V453000>@base 16 77
06:29<@DorpsGek>V453000: 119
06:29<V453000>thats correct eh
06:30<@peter1138>For what?
06:30<@peter1138>Eh?
06:30<V453000>cause my fucking spritesheet apparently has it at 109 :D
06:32<V453000>yeah was 109
06:32<V453000>shit.
06:32-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
06:33<V453000>I have a thing which puts 8 16x16 render sheets into one 32k tall png
06:33<V453000>and am orientating in it by 00-FF labels
06:33<V453000>apparently something is not right though XD
06:35<@peter1138>NARS in hotpink :(
06:38-!-Xrufuian [~Xrufuian@cpe-142-136-204-41.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Quit]
06:38<andythenorth>super
06:38<@peter1138>NARS in poobrown :(
06:39<andythenorth>nope
06:44-!-Pikkaphone [~yaaic@203-206-161-219.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:44<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/sdouige.png :S
06:54<V453000>seriously that is one of the mot fun features :P
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06:57<andythenorth>pink cat
06:57<andythenorth>peter1138: spearmint
06:57<andythenorth>awesome
06:57<andythenorth>not with that yellow though :P
06:58<andythenorth>the 4th slider is brightness? Saturation?
06:58<@peter1138>Contrast.
06:59<@peter1138>As there is 8 colours for a company colour, it selects how much spread there is.
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>you need a way to save these colours into a palette
06:59<@peter1138>Eh
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>also, select something that resembles an original colour
07:00<@peter1138>Yeah, at the moment you get a list of the original colours (and that uses the original remaps) or the custom option.
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07:01<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean you select "blue" and it puts the sliders on something that roughly generates the builtin blue, so you can modify that
07:01<@peter1138>Oh, well it does that.
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>and then can save that as blue or some custom name
07:01<@peter1138>It's not a direct match of course.
07:04<@peter1138>Anyway, the RGB sliders smell a bit.
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07:06<@peter1138>Contrast doensn't work for zBase, because zBase doesn't do colour remapping "properly".
07:06<@peter1138>And Pineapples has its own thing, heh
07:07<andythenorth>who drew those ridiculous trams
07:07<supermop>you?
07:08<andythenorth>I have no recollection of that
07:08<supermop>now im thinking its not my ram but my heatsink thats been turning my computer off regularly
07:08<supermop>i dont know wat trams you are talking about andythenorth
07:09<supermop>but you have drawn some ridiculous trams in your day
07:15<andythenorth>so is the GS generator done yet?
07:15<frosch123>we have an andy prototype, but it is not working properly yet
07:16<andythenorth>bad engineering
07:16<andythenorth>unclear scope
07:16<andythenorth>murky goals
07:16<andythenorth>also fallacy of sledgehammer -> every problem looks like a nail
07:17*andythenorth is newgrf shaped
07:18<frosch123>i would say that i am trying to get into python shape, but i fear a dumb comment by peter
07:18<andythenorth>my python would probably scare the squirrel
07:18<andythenorth>can I write squirrel in python? o_O
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>that is really the essence of a code generator :p
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07:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: maybe you could make a proof-of-concept o_O
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe i won't.
07:20<andythenorth>that too
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07:22<@peter1138>frosch123, never fear, I reserve those comments for andythenorth.
07:23<@peter1138>rm -rf rgb
07:23<@peter1138>Because, really...
07:24<@peter1138>I could solve the palette management problem by pre-caching all the possible combinations.
07:24<@peter1138>That's only 5TB of memory.
07:25<andythenorth>:P
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>fits right next to the map sizes :)
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>there are GRFs out there that are 10% sprites and 90% recolour maps :)
07:26-!-oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:26<@peter1138>There's that GRF Pikka made...
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>GermanRV was like that for ages
07:27<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: there are grfs which are 90% duplicate sprites
07:27<@peter1138>Why would you need recolour maps in general?
07:28<@peter1138>Fancy stuff with cargo containers...
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>2 company colours and one cargo recolout
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>you can recolour containers as well :p
07:29<@peter1138>Switching colours can be done with a callback anyway.
07:29<@peter1138>Although you're stuck with only company colours then
07:29<andythenorth>never understood recolour maps
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>but you can't layer recolours
07:29<@peter1138>There are GRFS which are 90% transparent pixels...
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>which would totally solve the combinatorial explosion
07:30<andythenorth>recolour maps seemed like a total headache
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it really was worse previously :p
07:30<andythenorth>compared to transforming the pixels before compiling
07:32<andythenorth>when you have a python, every problem looks like a nail
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but reducing the duplication would probably be more hassle than it's worth
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07:33<V453000>frosch123: 12pool?
07:34<V453000>lotv coming out anytime soon?
07:38<frosch123>he? it's blizzcon, all the trailers and announcements were yesterday
07:38<frosch123>ofc it will never end with what the beta started, but the workers are the most funny change
07:38<V453000>right
07:38<V453000>:D
07:38<frosch123>z and p changed look funny as well, t is boring as usual
07:39<V453000>so 5 more years until it comes out :P
07:39<frosch123>V453000: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/470781-legacy-of-the-void-announced
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07:39<frosch123>V453000: beta in january or something
07:39<V453000>:D
07:39<frosch123>how long did the other betas take? 1 year?
07:40<V453000>LMFAO LURKERS
07:40<V453000>idk
07:41<V453000>Corrosive Bile also destroys forcefields and damages air units.
07:41<V453000>roachiz :D
07:42<frosch123>yes, z an p changes allow some micro stuff, but t looks like the opposite of that, self microing units or so
07:42<V453000>invulnerable nydus
07:42<V453000>annoying much
07:42<V453000>:D
07:42<frosch123>well, all changes are of the type "completely op", but if it's the case for all, then it's fine :p
07:46<V453000>sure sure :)
07:46<V453000>nyway
07:46<V453000>ght
07:46<V453000>g
07:46<V453000>cya
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08:04<argoneus>ghtgcya
08:10<Wolf01>:Q_
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>was any part of that discussion in english?
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09:40<Quatroking>in what year do oil rigs appear?
09:45<@planetmaker>1970s
09:46<Quatroking>thanks
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11:03<Wolf01>bah, lego didn't accept the train (convertible!) from BTTF
11:13<NGC3982>Mmmm. LEGO.
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12:08<krinn>hi guys, https://dev.openttdcoop.org/ask_new_project is bad
12:09<krinn>anyone wishing put hands in grease to apply one for me?
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12:12<Zuu>krinn: A good channel to ask in is #openttdcoop.devzone IIRC
12:12<@Alberth>planetmaker: ^^
12:12<Zuu>Although you are lucky, I can probably help you to create a project
12:12<krinn>Zuu not that i'm lazy but isn't this close to public?
12:13<@Alberth>for openttdcoop devzone, the other project is more appropriate, especially technicalities like "it fails" :)
12:13<Zuu>Well, IIRC #openttdcoop.devzone is the IRC channel of dev.openttdcoop.org.
12:13<@Alberth>but the separation is not that strict :)
12:14<Zuu>At least two admins of that site are in here right now.
12:15<Sylf>hmmm
12:15<Sylf>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/ask_new_project works, but https of that page doesn't
12:15<krinn>Oh, trying so
12:15<Zuu>krinn: Where did it link to the https:// version?
12:16<krinn>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/ :)
12:16<krinn>Click on Apply new project
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12:18<krinn>Zuu would like discuss it with you if you wish
12:20<Zuu>New project idea?
12:20<@Alberth>is more interesting than old ones :)
12:20<krinn>I actually made the GS part of it
12:21<krinn>Alberth, it won't, else it would be made by someone else than me
12:21<krinn>Toylib provide a lib for GS and AI to query GS money (for AI eyes candy/toy usage that need to money to survive)
12:22<krinn>I have also done a GS that use the lib, just so a user could have its AI running with a server that do nothing except feed them
12:23<Zuu>Given that the tutorial got a GS, an AI and a scenario in the same repo, it sounds like your project fits in the GameScript category: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/gamescripts
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12:24<krinn>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7287
12:25<krinn>yep, can be there, the AI is just a test ai, the GS is a working implementation, and the lib will be for AI and GS, so gamescript section will be fine
12:25<frosch123>what should the projects be named?
12:26<Zuu>It is also possible to cerate 3 projects I think, depending on how you like to organize it.
12:26<krinn>i pickup ToyLib
12:26<frosch123>i have no idea what any of that in the task means, somehow the meaning of "toy" escapes me
12:26<krinn>Zuu: just simpler to hold the 4 tasks within the same repo imo
12:27<Zuu>I think the url-name will be gslib-toy then.
12:27<krinn>frosch123, toy/eyes candy AIs die out of money, the lib implement a GS side that can be add to any GS to feed them
12:27<krinn>so you do "GS that" that do its work, and add the lib to it, and the lib will answer to toy/eyes candy AI (that use the AI lib part too) to feed them with money
12:28<frosch123>ok, for stuff like towncars then
12:28<Zuu>I would say that it doesn't prevent humans from cheating, but make it non-trivial.
12:28<krinn>So you can have nocargoal, but still it will keep toy AI alive, making the user play with them and nocargoal in the same time
12:28<krinn>frosch123, yes, but road building or anything in "toy" category, it depend if the AI handle it or not
12:28<frosch123>and yes, a single project and reposiory also sounds logical to me
12:29<krinn>That's how i have my dir structure done
12:29<frosch123>Zuu: so, do you create project and repo already?
12:29<Zuu>I look at it. But it was long time ago I created a project.
12:30<krinn>AITest AIToyLib GSToyHelper GSToyLib package holding the parts
12:30<frosch123>i do not know what the current state of automatic repo creation is, but the ssh key needs enabled manually for sure
12:31<krinn>For now my scp set only handle giving money, but if anyone see something useful a GS can provide to a toy AI, i'm fully open
12:31<Zuu>Hmm. right that will be a problem as I don't know how to do that. So it is better to wait for someone more familar with devzone to set your project up.
12:31<frosch123>i think the only things a gs can do, which a ai cannot is money and industry construction
12:32<frosch123>Zuu: did you start?
12:33<krinn>frosch123, well, i don't see any toy AI need to build an industry, but that kind of things could help
12:34<krinn>the aim in not to autoplay alone, the aim is to help user that use toy ai keep them alive, and so in GS that want provide it to them without coding the part to do that
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12:34<frosch123>well, if the ai bulds roads and canals for public use, then industries are not far away
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12:35<krinn>my references are base on what i know: toycars, the machinweb stuff that build roads, and an ai that plants tree :)
12:35<Zuu>frosch123: I didn't create anything.
12:36<frosch123>krinn: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/gslibrary-toy
12:36<frosch123>repo is next
12:36<krinn>Great thank you guys
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12:40<@planetmaker>oh, s/o created the project
12:40<@planetmaker>don't worry about repo. It will self-create
12:40<frosch123>oh, just did it manually :p
12:40<@planetmaker>unless you manually mess with it
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12:40<@planetmaker>then you also have to tell devzone and rhodecode manually :P
12:40<frosch123>planetmaker: how long would i have needed to wait?
12:40<@planetmaker>7 minutes
12:41<frosch123>well, i created it in rhodecode, and entered it in devzone, is that enough?
12:41<@planetmaker>I think so
12:41<frosch123>ok, let's see whether i can figure out the key thing
12:42<@planetmaker>key thing?
12:42<frosch123>to allow krinn to commit to it?
12:42<Sylf>ssh key thing?
12:42<frosch123>doesn't it need telling which key can access which repo?
12:42<@planetmaker>that type of key :)
12:42<krinn>i'm using my ssh as usual
12:42<frosch123>or is that also automatic? :o
12:43<@planetmaker>then it should work
12:43<@planetmaker>yup, key is there
12:44<frosch123>so, devzone is all that is needed?
12:44<@planetmaker>well, it would need copying the key to devzone, if krinn hadn't have his key already there
12:45<@planetmaker>but devzone is then the only thing, if the key is already know to devzone
12:45<@planetmaker>s/but devzone/but creating project in devzone/
12:45<frosch123>ok, so, all automatic :)
12:45<krinn>ok all fine for me
12:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27058 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-11-08 17:45:53 UTC)
12:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:46<@DorpsGek>french - 1 changes by romazoon
12:46<@DorpsGek>galician - 70 changes by permudo
12:46<@DorpsGek>latin - 5 changes by Supercheese
12:46<krinn>look at easy the serverGS implentation is done : https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/gslibrary-toy/repository/revisions/65ae735eb175/entry/GSToyHelper/main.nut
12:46<krinn>(of course as the server do actually nothing itself)
12:47<Zuu>You got mixed tab and space indentation :-)
12:48<krinn>always in openttdcoop, it never loves my files
12:48<krinn>or ident style or editor, no idea
12:49<@planetmaker>anyway, thanks for giving a helping hand so quickly to kr1nn, Zuu & frosch123 :)
12:49<krinn>you guys had always been sweet with me :)
12:49<krinn>(wonder if i had huge boobs what i would get!!!)
12:50<Zuu>krinn: It will look nice if the file only uses tabs or spaces for indentation. A mix of them two will always look bad.
12:50<frosch123>well, i always wonder how much i break when pm is not around :p
12:50<Zuu>At least you saved me from having to be the one that broke it :-)
12:50<krinn>Zuu, never been able to fix the issue, codeblock should convert all to space or tab, but it doesn't do it or something
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12:51<Zuu>But yes, it is a short GS implementation. :-)
12:51<krinn>but the files are fine when i use them in codeblock or pluma or geany
12:51<krinn>Zuu lol yes, the lib do the work
12:52<krinn>the lib itself isn't big too, as it only handle adding the command and handle it to grant money
12:53<krinn>But it's just theory implementation, need to do the AI and AIlib to actually test the result
12:55<@planetmaker>frosch123, you just demonstrated that you won't break it ;)
12:55<Zuu>The worst is if you fork someone else code, and want keep your modifications at a minimum and that code uses space indentation. (my opinion)
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12:57<krinn>Zuu really don't know why it do that, download the file and see how it look on your editor, for me, they look good
12:58<Zuu>The key to make files look least bad in *any* editor is to only use either tab or space for indentation and then only spaces for alignment of comments.
12:58<Zuu>You can then setup your editor to whatever tab with you like.
12:58<Zuu>s/tab with/tab width/
12:59<krinn>i only use tab, but i'm not sure if have currently codeblock set to convert them to space (something i try to solve that)
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13:04<Zuu>Oh, you can as AI also use ToyLib to get rid of money you don't know how to spend :-)
13:05<krinn>well, it could be abuse but harder for human, but any AIs can use the lib and cheat for money
13:05<Zuu>One problem though with ToyLib is that you need to hope people trust AIs to not abuse it.
13:06<krinn>there's option for serverGS to disable money :p
13:06<krinn>but even i didn't add any limit to it, even AI can be limit if i see some start abusing the lib to get money (and they aren't toy kindof ai)
13:06<krinn>as with scp you can ident the querier
13:07<Zuu>Perhaps the GSToyLib should have one mandatory log. "Granted XX to YY" when granting money to some company.
13:07<krinn>anyway, server admin could always block in game the sending of money if he suspect a problem, as long as the GS using the lib offer him that choice
13:07<Zuu>Otherwise the lib should obey the rules of libs to stay silent.
13:08<krinn> GSLog.Info("Giving "+message.Data[0]+" to company "+message.SenderID);
13:08<krinn>so server log have it per default
13:08<Zuu>GSCompany.GetName(message.senderID) ?
13:08<krinn>ah yes, it would be better speaking
13:09<krinn>will change that, producing name+id
13:09<krinn>and maybe add some log disabling ability too
13:10<Zuu>I think this one should be off by default: GSLog.Info("GSToyLib: client ask us "+message.Data[0]+" money");
13:11<krinn>was thinking that too when i saw it right now :)
13:11<krinn>But they are there moslty as debug message as i didn't do any client yet
13:11<Zuu>GSLog.Info("No money given as parameter disable it."); <-- you probably want to say "No amount given as paremeter, reject request". You are not actually disabing anyting.
13:12<krinn>taking notes for those change, i will keep them and fix it when i have done the ai part
13:13<krinn>ok food time for me
13:13<krinn>later
13:18*Zuu collects motivation to start cooking
13:26*Alberth gives Zuu some motivation
13:26<Zuu>Thanks
13:30<Zuu>krinn: A different way to solve the toy AIs going bankrupt is to a new info.nut callback/setting where AIs can tell that they are toy AIs and thus get some symbol/text in the AI selection list and get special handling by OpenTTD. Either by making all commands free (pontentially a large diff, but I think more correct) or by at some conditions grant it "free" money.
13:30<Zuu>s/is to a new/is to add a new/
13:36<argoneus>ayy
13:37<argoneus>imagine if V453000 had the building and thinking speed of a computer
13:37<argoneus>imagine those railroads
13:40<@planetmaker>you simply would need to look at nuts and purr. or at how coop builds. depending on how you mean your statement :P
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14:28<andythenorth>really, GS is the right place to solve the distance ‘problem'
14:28*NGC3982 has been at the photographers.
14:29<NGC3982>It seems like Hubble took some new nice photografs of me that'l be done next week.
14:29*NGC3982 did his best to look like a good boy.
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15:39<George>hi
15:39<George>planetmaker:
15:40<George>I get lots of errors like this 16:50:47 nmlc warning: "src/steam/e_all.pnml", line 10: "src/steam/e.png" at [x: 32, y: 1581]: 2 of 273 pixels (0%) are animated
15:40<George>https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/xussrset/536/console
15:40<George>But I do not get this error under WIN
15:41<George>I use this NML http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nml/nightlies/v5424-377/
15:41<George>What is this error and how can it be fixed?
15:44<frosch123>you only get that with the newest nml, and you also only will get it after clearing the nmlcache
15:44<frosch123>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Realsprites <- you can tag sprites which are expected to have animated pixels
15:48<George>isn't 5424-377 the latest one? (07-11-2014)
15:53<Zuu>andythenorth: I think a GS could monitor vehicle income, neutralize it by taking money from companies. Or better if a NewGRf could remove cargo payment all completely that will be best. Then GS monitor cargo delivery to industries and give companies money based on this. The GS will not know from where the cargo comes and can thus only pay same amount for coal nearby and coal from other side of the map. It could however pay more at factory A than
15:53<Zuu>factory B.
15:54<Zuu>You will lose per-vehicle income statistics.
15:56<Zuu>A GS would probably put your income in the other expanses row. Or it could put all in some vehicle type row, but cannot know which vehicle type. It could make a split based on what vehicles you own, but that could only be based on ratio of number of vehicles, vehicle value etc. not the actual cargo deliveried.
15:56<andythenorth>FlatRateGS
15:57<Zuu>Do you know if a NewGRF can easily as a stand alone zero all cargo income, even if for example FIRS is loaded, or do that depend on NewGRF load order etc?
15:57<@planetmaker>George, that's the newest nml available, yes
15:58<Zuu>Or will sush a NewGRF only work for default industries?
15:59<@planetmaker>Zuu, it could probably be made as add-on NewGRF, loaded after whatever industry NewGRF there might be
15:59<@planetmaker>Zuu, but you might want to check for which cargoIDs are actually defined / used - or you might define additional cargoes
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16:00<Zuu>GS solution will eventually take away income you shouldn't get, but it will be async so you can cheat it a bit, but will get into debts later on if you over-use money you are not supposed to have.
16:00<@planetmaker>but you could query for industry grfs and then handle it accordingly. or maybe even for used cargoids... (not sure)
16:00<@planetmaker>Zuu, that's called income tax ;)
16:00<Zuu>:-)
16:01<Zuu>I would probably not write a such NewGRF. But it is nice to know what is possible if I would write a such GS.
16:01<@planetmaker>such parameter would also be easy to add to newgrfs
16:02<@planetmaker>but yes, it would depend on load order
16:02<Zuu>And as GS can check income data, it can easily detect if it need to counteract income or not.
16:02<@planetmaker>but your newgrf could detect load order and complain, if wrong :P
16:02<Zuu>income data, as in the income chart.
16:03<@planetmaker>GS-Marx ;) or is it GS-Engels?
16:05<Zuu>GS-Government
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16:15<andythenorth>Zuu: put all the money into Escrow :
16:15<andythenorth>:P
16:16<andythenorth>then release at year end :P
16:16<andythenorth>horrible
16:18<Wolf01>redirect all the game money to your bank account
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: does anybody outside germany even know the name "Engels"?
16:22<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: sure. we don't know what he (or Marx) has really done, but we know the name
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>well, they really only wrote a book... :p
16:23*andythenorth does
16:24<andythenorth>but andythenorth studied politics
16:24<@peter1138>Engelbert Humperdinck?
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>they made a case study on how the english economy worked, and made some suggestions on what could be done to improve the condition of the workers
16:24<+glx>but economy doesn't care about the workers
16:26<Zuu>andythenorth: If you play 64x64, the GS can pay you almost daily. But if you play 4048x4048 and the GS have problem to possible keep up with monthly/quaterly payments, then so bad for you :-p
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>the number is 4096
16:27<+glx>or 2048 ;)
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>go learn your powers of two, man :p
16:27<Zuu>right :-)
16:27<Zuu>I was thinking twite of 24, but that was wrong :-)
16:27<b_jonas>yeah... I wrote 8096 in a program once and got a segfault I debugged for an hour
16:27<b_jonas>since then I wrote (1<<13) or similar for any power bigger than 1024
16:28<b_jonas>the computer is better at getting the numbers right than I am
16:28<b_jonas>sure, I know the powers, but it's safer
16:28<+glx>8192
16:31<Jinassi>magic buldozer and its use in mp, doable?
16:31<Jinassi>someone went awol with funding
16:31<+glx>towns can use it when enable
16:31<Jinassi>eek
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16:39<Eddi|zuHause>you know that "AWOL" is a military term for someone who ran away?
16:41<Jinassi>TheMoreIKnow...
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>it probably does not apply to the situation you try to describe :p
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>hm, is there a "quiet" option for nmlc?
16:44<krinn>Zuu: :) was going to make it tomorrow, but it was really fast to do, so testai, ailib... are done
16:44<Zuu>Have you already tested them?
16:45<krinn>yep, they are running
16:45<krinn>use buidpackage.sh to get them in package subdir
16:45<krinn>(i'm unsure if i should attach the tar to the hg repo)
16:46<krinn>just make sure you build a package subdir in the tree
16:48<+glx>usually only source goes to the repo, not the result
16:49<krinn>glx that's what i think, binary file aren't that good for repo
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>hm, "--verbosity=0"?
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>it should still output warnings and errors
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>but not the "info" and not the current processing step
16:51<Zuu>krinn: Why use static $State = [null, null] as member variable and have things like AIToyLib.State[0]? Why not have: static $scp_handle = null; static $manage_scp_ourself = null; ?
16:51<Zuu>The later gives more readable code as you don't have to lookup what index 0 in that array is supposed to do.
16:52<Zuu>Oh and sorry for extra '$'. I have been doing JS recently.
16:52<krinn>:)
16:52<krinn>because you cannot alter a static value
16:53<Zuu>Can't use wrap it up in a table with named keys?
16:53<Zuu>static $state = { foo = null, bar = null }; ?
16:53<krinn>yes, but i pickup table as it's just faster for me
16:53<krinn>i don't care the index of the table, only the content
16:54<krinn>i don't think it would hurt anyone using it, only devs may look twice time at that, it's not really something hard to figure out still
16:54<Zuu>When you come back a month later, it will be easier if things are written out.
16:54<Zuu>Also most code is read more times than it is written.
16:55<krinn>i will put comments in code next
16:55<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: --quiet is the same as --verbosity=0, both disable warnings
16:55<frosch123>verbosity 1 is warnings, 2 with info, 3 with progress, 4 with even more stuff
16:56<Zuu>Having it directly in the variable name or at least table key, makes it quicker to read/remember than just having numbers or having to lookup a comment.
16:56<krinn>yes, it would be known if i were a good programmer :)
16:57<krinn>i just prefer array over table
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16:58<Zuu>Well, it is your repo. But I think many would agree that a table would be more readable.
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so 1 it is.
16:59<Zuu>If you really want an array, you should define constanst like STATE_SCP_HANDLE = 0
16:59<krinn>ok, will try to change to using table
17:00<krinn>but i was aiming at the easy implementation, not at first the easy code understanding
17:01<krinn>i think my aim is reach, it's quiet easy to add them no?
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17:02<Zuu>easy to add table? Or add what?
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17:03<krinn>easy to use the libs and add them in other scripts
17:03<Zuu>You need to write some doc that tell you what the constructor parameter of the library does.
17:03<krinn>scp usage is totally abstract from users (that's what i think would scare them the most)
17:04<krinn>yep, i know, and i know i sucks even more at writing doc
17:04<Zuu>GSes that use SCPLib need to pass theire handle to it. Not being aware of this could potentially lead to bad things.
17:05*andythenorth -> bed
17:06<andythenorth>bye
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17:06<Zuu>A less error prone way would be to not have a default value to the constructor. Failing to look this up will give you an error, and you can then figure out if you want to pass null or your own handle.
17:06<krinn>that's only influence the SCP.Check in real
17:07<+glx>Zuu: a kind of forced TRFM :)
17:07<+glx>*RTFM
17:07<Zuu>Yeah :-)
17:07<krinn>ah ok
17:07<krinn>force error if user didn't read
17:08<krinn>(remind me the southpark / apple episode)
17:09<krinn>the problem is that user can really init it without any scp handle (for user that don't use scp themselves)
17:09<+glx>yes in this case it passes null
17:09<+glx>but explicitely
17:09<krinn>that's what i do glx
17:09<Zuu>I would probably leave out the SCP management code out of the library and just register my own commands to SCP. That would make a simplistic library and a streamlined usage of the library.
17:09<krinn>ah ok, force it to pass a null one ok
17:10<krinn>will change to force explicit null parameter
17:10<Zuu>But again, your repo. So keep it in if you feel it is more what you like to do.
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling nmlc got even slower :/
17:12<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, don't have the feeling it's the sources you compile that grow itself?
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: no, i haven't touched the code in a year
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>i just updated nmlc and tested whether it still compiles
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17:16<krinn>well, i don't think gcc could claim it goes faster with years too :)
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>gnah... damn oberhümer... every time he adds a file the line endings go haywire...
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17:45<Wolf01>'night
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18:17*Zuu started to write some GS code just to end up trying to make some nice generic code instead of focusing on the problem
18:18*Zuu -> bed
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 09 00:00:49 2014