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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-11-09

---Logopened Sun Nov 09 00:00:49 2014
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00:46<andythenorth>Pikkaphone: is it?
00:46<Pikkaphone>it does
00:47<andythenorth>I see
00:47<andythenorth>that was unexpected
00:48<Pikkaphone>was it?
00:52<andythenorth>maybe not in hindsight
00:52<andythenorth>so NARS 2.6?
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00:54<V453000>wats borken?
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01:13<andythenorth>not enough trainses
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01:27<Pikka>no northerns, boo
01:27<Pikka>because Dan didn't finish the streamlined sprites
01:27<Pikka>OH WELL
01:27<Pikkaphone>exactly
01:30<Supercheese>Not like there are a dearth of steamers to choose from eh
01:30<Pikka>not at all
01:30<Supercheese>is/are
01:43<andythenorth>no what
01:43<andythenorth>now *
01:43*andythenorth is working
01:43<andythenorth>not on ottd
01:43<andythenorth>shameful
01:45<Pikka>tres
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02:05<andythenorth>I should Squid
02:05<andythenorth>but eh
02:05<andythenorth>I am cssing and htmling
02:14<Pikka>these things happen
02:16<Pikka>arivathingie
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02:41<andythenorth>he back
02:44<@peter1138>pikka come back
02:45<Pikkaphone>did he
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02:47<Pikkaphone>so
02:48<Pikkaphone>I should pull my finger out and finish that loco tonight
02:48<Pikkaphone>just needs texture mapping really.
02:51<Pikkaphone>then I can update a pineapple and disappear for the duration. :)
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03:09<Flygon>Out of all the ideas that ran to mind when taking a shower that'll never happen
03:09<Flygon>Supplying coal/diesel fuel and/or water to stations for locomotives to refuel on is up there :B
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03:47<Pikkaphone>it's been suggested frequently, Flygon. Too micromanagy. too chicken and egg. :P
03:48<Pikkaphone>could almost be done with a gs and a custom industry, perhaps. :)
03:49<Flygon>A g- right, gamescript
03:49<Flygon>Gotcha :3
03:49<Flygon>Alrighty, figured I wasn't the first with the idea x3
03:50<Pikkaphone>andythenorth: whither hoverzellepins?
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03:51<andythenorth>Pikkaphone: that too
03:51<andythenorth>I should get on them
03:51<andythenorth>maybe in today
03:54<Pikkaphone>you should
03:54<andythenorth>maybe this app doesn’t need user profile icons
03:54<Pikkaphone>unless you'd rather texture map my shark
03:54<Pikkaphone>why would it?
03:56<@Alberth>hi hi
04:08<Pikkaphone>moin Alberth
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04:27<supermop>Flygon: probably best as a GS that just reduces running cost of that type when that cargo is being delivered 'somewhere'
04:28<supermop>as interesting as it is people would likely perfer not to have their locomotives getting stranded or never running at all
04:29<Flygon>Hmm
04:29<supermop>really difficult to think of a way to structure it so as not to make things too insrutable
04:30<supermop>inscrutable
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04:31<supermop>the first 10 years i played TTo i was under the false impression that proximity to HQ affected vehicle reliability
04:31<supermop>and would always place the HQ in the center of the map
04:31<@Alberth>obviously the best place for a tycoon HQ!
04:32<supermop>i also thought it would make the host town like me more
04:32<supermop>in someways a ggame is more fun when you don't know the mechanics of it
04:32<supermop>everything is strange and magical
04:33<Flygon>Sorry for the delay, nature called
04:33<Flygon>Well, more had in my mind the train reducing to 1-2km/h when out of ful
04:34<supermop>yeah ive thought of that too
04:34<supermop>more with busses than trains
04:34<Flygon>Because, y'know, horse haulage
04:34<supermop>but
04:34<Flygon>Either way
04:34<Flygon>Introduce petrol stations as a game mechanic
04:34<Flygon>:D
04:34<supermop>all it does is then prevent early game long routes to print money
04:35<@Alberth>and it makes the game more complicated
04:35<@Alberth>ever tried building a firs network using supplies?
04:35<Flygon>Not yet
04:35<supermop>late in the game you can afford a coaling station every 10 tiles so its negligible
04:35<@Alberth>it's such a chaos when you don't deliver in time
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>one big misconception always disturbed me about the "deliver coal to power your trains" concept: you still do not actually OWN the coal you deliver
04:36<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: just buy it :p
04:36<Flygon>...
04:36<Flygon>I didn't think of that
04:36<Eddi|zuHause>there is no price for coal implemented in this game :)
04:36<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: but if you never deliver coal to the power company they don't have any electricity to sell your feeder stations
04:37<@Alberth>maybe it should all be delivered to the HQ
04:37<Supercheese>you could sort of hack in train range by comparing date of last depot servicing with current date, but doing that all the time would kill performance
04:37<Supercheese>presuming depot service = refuel
04:37<supermop>Alberth: yeah thats what i use to imagine back in the 90s or so, that the hq was a general maintenance depot
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>we already established that "current date" is an insecure variable
04:38<Supercheese>game would grind to a halt what with the calculations anyway
04:38<supermop>also you get into the same issues of what is the imaginary map scale
04:38<Supercheese>and apparently the variables suck so meh
04:38<Supercheese>actually, date-based would be mapsize-agnostic
04:38<supermop>is 500 tiles a lot or a little distance to reasonably expect a diesel to travel
04:39<Flygon>I always envisaged being refueled at a railway station
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>the game would not grind to a halt, because the callbacks are not calculated all the time.
04:39<Supercheese>anyway, train range is a terrible idea
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>which is actually precisely why the variables are insecure
04:39<@Alberth>supermop: in original TTD, the map was 256x256
04:39<Flygon>Given steam locos, at least here, would get coal and water dumped in at stations
04:39<supermop>bear in mind i am not aware of DMUs regularly refueling more than once a day
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>typically once a week
04:40<supermop>so yeah maybe there is a dynamic of you need 10 coaling tipples per x length in the steam era and 1 diesel pump later
04:40<supermop>thats sort of an interesting game element, but likely most people would find it tedious
04:41<supermop>and just have 10 times as many diesel stations as needed
04:41<@Alberth>supermop: the first problem to judge is whether it is an interesting game mechanic at all
04:41<@Alberth>which I quite doubt, given my experience with firs and supplies
04:41<Eddi|zuHause>if i were to implement range, i'd either just check the distance between scheduled stops (like ships with buoys), or i'd force a delay on loading time depending on the distance to the last stop
04:42<@Alberth>and that is less worse, since industries don't crawl to a halt when running out of supplies
04:42<supermop>not even getting into issues of, do you choose 600V DC with a feeder every 20 tiles or 15,000V+ AC with one every 100 tiles
04:42<Flygon>Could always have a parameter to set how much 'overhead' over the shortest possible route you need to whatever
04:42<supermop>Alberth: i think plane range is an ok feature
04:43<@Alberth>supermop: that's fine tuning and newgrf author interests, rather than raw game feature
04:43<supermop>but realistically i think a DMU could drive across the US on a single tank so how would diesel ranges every even come into play
04:44<Flygon>What sort of DMU?
04:44<supermop>depending on route it takes
04:44<@Alberth><sigh/>
04:44<Flygon>A fully loaded VLocity would probably only be able to do 3000km, tops
04:44<supermop>Flygon: hard to say as we dont have DMUs in the US
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04:44<Flygon>I grabbed the closest American style example to come to mind
04:44<Wolf01>moin
04:44<supermop>yo
04:45<Flygon>Or: One of the few things that'd probably have a chance in hell of being able to pass the US crash standards :B
04:45<Flygon>If the thing's designed to ram a car going 160-180km/h, well... yeah
04:46<supermop>Alberth: i assumed this was all ideas for a Newgrf/GS not the game itself
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>don't use german DMUs for that
04:46<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
04:46<@Alberth>supermop: independent of how you realize it, it's a feature of the game if you implement it, imho
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: the game must still provide the infrastructure for the NewGRF/GS to tap into
04:47<supermop>Flygon: the few DMUs permitted on US mainlines tend to be so heavy because of that that they never became viable
04:47<supermop>i just never saw 'range' and the 'fun' way to model any kind of fuel economy
04:47<supermop>*as the
04:47<@Alberth>supermop: even if you can do it in newgrf, you should still consider whether it makes sense game-play wise
04:48<supermop>Alberth: i'm saying i wouldn't
04:48<supermop>i dont want a train running to the depot and refusing to leave because its next station is 300 tiles away
04:49<Flygon>supermop: Yeah. The VLos are around 14-17t/axle (hard to get a steady estimate)
04:50<supermop>*if* it was found to be 'fun' to model fuel, best to just have it as a component of running cost - which it sort of is
04:51<supermop>but yes not sure its worth the work to have game aware of what fuel each vehicle uses so it can let cost be varied by GS
04:51<supermop>in that case you should state how many employees each vehicle is staffed by
04:52<supermop>as labour cost are going to fluctuate or rise as much or more than coal costs
04:52<Supercheese>well, there are already separate running costs for diesel/electric/steam
04:52<Supercheese>categories*
04:53<supermop>then we are back to your company's drivers all going on strike when you refuse to take them on a fancy company picnic,
04:53<Supercheese>Game script to check if power stations are getting good supplies -> if not, raise electric prices?
04:53<supermop>ad the strikebreakers pass signals at danger due to lack of training
04:53<Supercheese>if that's even possibl
04:53<Supercheese>e
04:53<supermop>and don't slow down for curves
04:54<supermop>then your train derails and plows into the power station,
04:54<supermop>then all of your trains stop running as there is no more voltage in the catenary
04:55<supermop>economy of the whole map collapses and you cant even buy a mini bus to drive youself as a replacement service
04:55<supermop>pretty fun gameplay i think we would all agree
04:56<Flygon>Pssh
04:56<Flygon>Every real company knows
04:56<Flygon>That they wouldn't use scabs
04:56<Flygon>They'd just replace everyone with ATC
04:59<supermop>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbone_Street_Wreck
05:00<Eddi|zuHause>the first problem you get: what is actually a power plant?
05:01<Eddi|zuHause>there might not be one on the map. or there might not be one in the NewGRF set
05:02<Flygon>It's not the power plant that supplies power
05:02<Flygon>It's the substations :3
05:03<Flygon>Always kinda felt rolling out electricity and communications networks could be a good way to add more depth to the game. But that might be stretching the Transport aspect :D
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05:05<Eddi|zuHause>"why kill cows for meat when you can just go into the supermarket and buy some"?
05:06<supermop>also you'd really need a whole new induustry set
05:09<supermop>a generic commodity GS might provide much of what you are looking for a feel like, but i do not believe it is possible
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>a GS can never rely on the presence of a certain NewGRF
05:10<supermop>that is if a GS decides that the price of coal is 'cheap' it reduces train running costs, but does not affect cargo payment rates
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05:10<supermop>what this 'price' is never need be defined nor exposed to user
05:11<supermop>and if 'coal' is not present in the game it does nothing?
05:11<supermop>i have no idea
05:11<Flygon>Could always create a coal stocks trade
05:13<supermop>im not sure letting an established company print even more money by coming to own all the coal futures on the map's market does much to help gameplay
05:14<supermop>really i can only conceive of some mechanism by which steam trains have cheap running costs at some point, while diesels have high costs, and then this gradually inverts
05:14<@planetmaker>congratulations, you have a monopoly. An anti-trust court ruled your company to be sold off. You loose :P
05:15<Flygon>:B
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>what if you tighten?
05:16<supermop>planetmaker: the map's economy has fallen so deeply under your corrupt influence that all of the members of the court mysteriously did not show up to work on the day the verdict was to be read
05:16<Flygon>Thus making OpenTTD the ultimate communism simulator
05:16<Flygon>Nobody's allowed to drive
05:16<Flygon>Everyone must take Government owned public transport
05:17<supermop>hey i would not mind various non profit focused game modes
05:17<supermop>public transit would be more interesting
05:17<supermop>if you are given an insuficient budget each year and have to make due with that
05:17<@planetmaker>does OpenTTD have a profit-oriented game mode? :P
05:18<supermop>planetmaker: no but it might be fun!
05:18<@planetmaker>also, I think SiliconValley pretty much is not profit-oriented
05:18<@planetmaker>nor are actually the town growth scripts in their various incarnations
05:19<@planetmaker>you need money, but it's not the goal
05:19<supermop>yeah
05:19<Flygon>supermop: We should totally make a Melbourne 1999 scenario :D
05:19<supermop>but what if you didn't earn money either
05:20<supermop>just get handed some amount to pay for running cost and capital construction each year, but do not collect any fares
05:22<supermop>that way you never get to the insane largess
05:22<supermop>you have to make decisions on how to spend limited funds each year
05:23<@Alberth>a GS can take money from you, afaik
05:24<supermop>can it make all cargo payment rates 0?
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>that would be quite easy
05:25<@Alberth>don't think so, but it's not needed, it can also see how much you earned afaik
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>but it would be in constant collision with the NewGRF
05:26<supermop>can it confiscate earnings in real time?
05:26<supermop>so i earn $100 and it then immediately takes $100 next tick?
05:26<@Alberth>why is that important?
05:27<Flygon>supermop: The real question is
05:27<Flygon>How would you run the privatized V/Line?
05:27<@Alberth>once every 3 months, it checks what you earned, and deducts that from your bank savings
05:27<Flygon>Esp. knowing all the freight stock is unavailable to you
05:27<supermop>hmm
05:27<supermop>i guess i am thinking,
05:27<@Alberth>you can spend the money in the mean time, but then you'll run in the red numbers
05:28<supermop>if GS is acting as 'government' and it pays me a grant to run a service for it
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>the real question is: what's the objective?
05:29<supermop>to prevent player from having more than their allotted grant to complete this years work
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>so, what is the "work"?
05:30<@Alberth>so build the GS, play with it, and find out whether that is fun
05:31<ginko_>how to mute soundtrack?
05:31<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: no idea, take people from town to neighboring town?
05:32<ginko_>Got it
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure why, but this season of doctor who was rather... unspectacular
05:36<supermop>Flygon: there really isnt a way to make a 'privatization' scenario that i can think of
05:36<Flygon>There is if you involve multiple human players and have an infrastructure sharing patch
05:36<Flygon>Make buying new vehicles very expensive
05:36<supermop>despite it being a common theme around the world the last 20 years
05:36<Flygon>And allow selling rollingstock between other players
05:37<Flygon>But yeah
05:37<Flygon>Needs humans
05:37<supermop>exactly, that's a ton of work compared to the current game
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05:37<supermop>and it's limited by how the scenario author decides to lay out infrastructure
05:38<Flygon>Well, could always copypasta how Kennet did it
05:38<supermop>mybe i built rails in a way that is infuriating for you to play with, but you and everyone else who plays my scenario will be stuck with my stations and junctions?
05:38<Flygon>An absolute clusterf... I lack the swag in #openttd to complete that word :B
05:39<supermop>infrastucture sharing could be cool but i dont think its going to happen soon
05:40<Flygon>Mm =/
05:40<Flygon>x3
05:41<Flygon>So much cool ideas to be considered
05:41<Flygon>So little implemention ideas
05:41<Flygon>Also coders, time, money, and coders
05:42<supermop>there is a lot of amazing potential out there -
05:42<supermop>once you start thinking of all the things possible you wish you could do in ottd
05:42<supermop>but hen eventually you get to the issue of:
05:43<supermop>why not do in real life?
05:43<supermop>sure you can't build a whole city but many you can build a house
05:43<supermop>or maybe a table to start with
05:44<supermop>i don't know that's whats haunted me the last 10 years
05:44<Flygon>Though, I still reckon the lack of subterranian network is the big killer here. Though, I also know that there's a lot of challenges out there.
05:45<Flygon>iirc, one of the big ones was how the interface would work
05:45<Flygon>But I don't know. Haven't kept track.
05:46<supermop>i want a town set newgrf that lets me make cool or pretty towns along the lines of some idea or theory, whether from history of urban planning, or futurist movements never realized
05:46<supermop>so i start drawing houses
05:46<supermop>but if i think up the rules i want it to follow, why not just draw models of towns for myself without the game?
05:46<Flygon>OOOoh
05:46<Flygon>Yes
05:47<Flygon>Realistic suburbs would be AWESOME
05:47<supermop>maybe this is getting a little too personally philosophical for this chanel
05:47<Flygon>Roadtypes too
05:47<Flygon>So that like
05:47<Flygon>You don't get houses being built Rockbank style
05:48<supermop>and i cant rotate a view of my town in openttd, but i can build a wood or card model and rotate that in my hand
05:49<Pikkaphone>supermop: there are plenty of ways you can limit or build "realistic" towns in openttd. I'd be happy to help with the coding if you have ideas.
05:49<supermop>i feel like i am preventing productive discussion from happening with my rambling here
05:50<@planetmaker>supermop, I think having a town with different quarters could be done to some extent. One would need to make use of the nearby_house check extensively and decide whether a certain house would be allowed in a location (quarter) or not
05:52<supermop>Pikkaphone: i'd be glad to have it, i dont want to get ahead of myself, but i am trying to make a good faith effort to at least have some produce before i go around begging for help this time!
05:52<ginko_>where are savegames stored by default?
05:52<Pikkaphone>and like productive discussion happens in this channel :P
05:52<Flygon>'productive'
05:53<Flygon>Pssh, it's only productive because it's not Footy season :D
05:53<@planetmaker>Pikkaphone, a town newgrf which promotes different town quarters would be nice, if it doesn't limit the town growing, thus always finds a house, if asked to find one :)
05:53<supermop>by the way pikka, photographed some deco/international style apartments lately - they may look more in place up there than down here
05:53<supermop>can town grid/road layout be varied by town type or zone?
05:53<@planetmaker>could even try to give different style to different towns :)
05:53<Pikkaphone>I'd like to see them; post in the forums?
05:54<@planetmaker>supermop, by town zone: no. IIRC there's a setting to choose a random road layout
05:54<supermop>sure just move them over to my computer
05:54<Pikkaphone>different towns can have different layouts, but it's not controllable by newgtf
05:54<supermop>aha
05:54<Pikkaphone>I don't know if it's readable. It could be if you make a request. ;)
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05:56<supermop>at least a rectangular rather than square grid would be nice (for melbourne or manhattan. our metabolist utopia should have crazy organic roads)
05:56<Flygon>The real trick is... is different layouts by different time periods and areas inside towns
05:56<Flygon>:D
06:01<@Alberth>ginko_: you may want to read the readme that you got with the program: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/readme.txt#L267
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06:10<supermop>Pikkaphone: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=54010&p=1136004#p1136004
06:10<Zuu>Is FlatRateGS a good name?
06:11<supermop>yep
06:12<@planetmaker>nah, there's currently only 3 different layouts, supermop: 2x2, 3x3 and irregular
06:12<@planetmaker>whether it's readable... dunno. But that indeed could be changed, if not
06:12<@planetmaker>Zuu, it could give other ideas, but yes :)
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06:13<Zuu>Any particular other ideas you have in mind?
06:14<@planetmaker>no, I find it funny :)
06:15<@planetmaker>first thing which came to my mind was like flat-rate-drinking :P
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06:19<Zuu>NoIncomeGS, AlternativeIncomeGS, NewIncomeGS, PaymentGS, ...
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06:20<Zuu>CashFlowGS
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06:23<@Alberth>CashDrainGS
06:23<@planetmaker>That's good :)
06:23<supermop>planetmaker: never a 4x4?
06:23<Zuu>That depends on how you tweak the payment parameter :-)
06:24<@planetmaker>supermop, that doesn't exist, I think.
06:24<@planetmaker>also, houses can only be 2x2 max
06:24<@Alberth>no castles allowed, sorry
06:24<supermop>4x4 would let you have two rows of 2x2 buildings
06:24<Flygon>B-but
06:24<Flygon>I-I
06:25<Flygon>I want to fire at my competitors's vehicles with arrows
06:25<Flygon>DAMN
06:25<Flygon>YOU
06:25<Flygon>ALBERTH
06:25<Flygon>;_______________________________;""
06:25<b_jonas>4x4 would mean that towns on islands or other small spaces can't build anything at all
06:26<@Alberth>I don't think we have an arrow factory yet
06:26<supermop>b_jonas: they can build a straight road
06:26<b_jonas>mind you, sometimes they get stuck in the irregular layout too
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06:29<Flygon>Alberth: AoEII didn't have arrow factories
06:29<Flygon>That didn't stop the castles having an infinite supply of arrow
06:29<Flygon>My theory?
06:29<Flygon>All castles and watch towers have a replicator and a fusion reactor inside them
06:29<Flygon>Explaining the cost of stone
06:30<@Alberth>Haven't played that game yet, waiting on openage to add the option to install game data without wine
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06:47<frosch123>Sylf: did you forget to attach some files to fs#6166?
06:47<@peter1138>10:56 < Flygon> The real trick is... is different layouts by different time periods and areas inside towns
06:47<@peter1138>Probably...
06:48<@peter1138>But maybe sounds like a job for... SimCity.
06:48<argoneus>ayy
06:48<Flygon>Oh snap
06:50<@peter1138>planetmaker, what's the difference between "original" and "better roads" ?
06:50<@planetmaker>frosch123, FS#6166 and FS#6167 seem like the same?
06:50<frosch123>yes, but without savegame quite useless
06:50<frosch123>usually i would blame date cheat, but it looks like multiplayer
06:51<@planetmaker>oh, we have four town layouts, peter1138 ? :) I'm not sure now, though I have a faint memory of roads turning back less often on itself, not, the 'better roads' allowing for slightly more house spaces
06:52<@peter1138>frosch123, yeah, may have been created in single player, then date set back and loaded in multiplayer...
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06:52<@peter1138>Aslo, yetis.
06:53<@planetmaker>or vice versa, MP map played in SP
06:54<@peter1138>I blame Quatroking
06:54<Quatroking>i regret nothing
06:55<frosch123>i am always looking for the quak in that nick name
06:55<Quatroking>I've been using this nickname everywhere for over 10 years now
06:55<Quatroking>NEVER GIVE UP
06:55<@peter1138>Quakroting?
07:00<@planetmaker>quakrotting ;)
07:01<frosch123>sounds like zombiefrogs
07:01<@planetmaker>:D
07:04<supermop>later
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07:44<Quatroking>more like
07:44<Quatroking>sounds like a founder of the minecraft wiki
07:45<Xaroth|Work>so, nobody special then
07:46<Quatroking>no not really no
07:46<Quatroking>(´•ω•`)
07:47<Jinassi>be someone, remake whole openttd wiki
07:51<Wolf01>mmh, something suddenly changed on firefox
07:52<Wolf01>it installed the new release without even tell me
07:53<@planetmaker>Wolf01, that's standard for quite some time now
07:55<__ln__>for years
08:05<@planetmaker>hm *nothing* was edited in the wiki in the last 12 days. That's curious :)
08:16<Zuu>You can now play with CashDrainGS in OpenTTD 1.4+
08:22<@planetmaker>nice :)
08:24<Zuu>It currently just grab what is delivered for all towns. But if someone know how to detect (from GS) what cargo IDs that are not accepted by town houses, then those cargos could be read from the industries instead and gain finer control on payments. Eg. pay bonus on some industries.
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08:45<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: with the "wrong" newgrfs, houses could potentially accept any cargo.
08:46<@planetmaker>yeah... better not assume any cargoID not accepted by houses
08:48<frosch123>if the house is occupied by train nerds, they may even accept regearing
08:48<@planetmaker>:D
08:49<@planetmaker>and for houses with an identity crises they accept <unknown cargo>
08:49<@Alberth>ha :)
08:53<Zuu>Yeah, an NewGRF could potentially accept any cargo id by a house. So that is why a GS would need to detect which cargos that are not accepted by any house if they want to do something nicer with these cargos
08:54<Zuu>But as far as I can see, the current API doesn't provide this information.
08:54<frosch123>sv does a classification of cargos
08:54<frosch123>primary, secondary, other
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: i don't see how it could. houses could change accepted cargos on the fly
08:55<frosch123>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/siliconvalley/repository/entry/main.nut#L117
08:55<frosch123>you can always construct a silly newgrf which breaks it, but it works for the reasonable newgrfs
08:56<Zuu>Yeah, doing something that works on reasonable newgrfs sounds better than nothing.
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>which raises the question when it gets "unreasonable". yeti houses? mars?
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>but computationally, you can only ever detect whether a cargo is accepted by houses, not if it is never accepted by houses
08:58<Zuu>Added to the logic by frosch123 you could take the largest town in the game, for each town building get acceptance and use that as a guidance on cargos accepted by houses. Though that way change over years and thus you ideally would need to do this check again and again, making your GS fairly complex.
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>and the game should keep track of that for the industry chain window
09:04<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yeti is reasonable
09:04<Flygon>That's an idea....
09:04<Flygon>A house cargo
09:04<frosch123>basically everything that heads for good gameplay is reasonable
09:04<Flygon>Where you have those oversized trucks carrying houses
09:04<Flygon>:D
09:05<frosch123>unreasonable things are things which are even terrible for human players, stuff that needs a readme. usually only realism bullshit gets to that level
09:16<NGC3982>We build houses in big bricks these days, don't we?
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that may be, but it totally depends on your metric :p
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10:21<Quatroking>does anybody know in what year Biorefineries show up in FIRS?
10:21<Quatroking>or are they not available in temperate?
10:21<Quatroking>FIRS documentation doesn't mention anything
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>that may depend on which economy you selected
10:24<Quatroking>I use complete FIRS
10:24<Quatroking>according to the docs it's in the FIRS economy, which I'm using, but I don't have any on my map
10:24<Quatroking>currently in year 1972
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>do they show up in the minimap legend?
10:26<Quatroking>Yeah
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>then they'll probably show up at some point
10:27<Quatroking>http://a.pomf.se/mrxzke.png
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>and you'll get a news message, unless you disabled those
10:37-!-Eleven [~60251494@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
10:37<Eleven>Hello
10:38-!-Eleven [~60251494@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit []
10:47<@Alberth>Quatroking: ./src/industries/biorefinery.pypnml:#define THIS_MIN_YEAR 2001 says the repository
10:47<Quatroking>thanks
10:48<Quatroking>guess I'll have to wait 29 years then
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11:08<NGC3982>Someone told me how to do this the last time, but how do i download the entire http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ofs/ with CLI?
11:09<frosch123>hg clone http://hg.openttdcoop.org/<project-id>
11:10<NGC3982>That's it. Thanks.
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11:36<@Alberth>hi hi
11:37<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r27059 /trunk (config.lib findversion.sh) (2014-11-09 16:37:07 UTC)
11:37<@DorpsGek>-Change: [Makefile] Make sure to use plain mercurial output unaltered by personal presets
11:39<NGC3982>Have you guys used Soap with Supybot? I've come so far that i'm trying to get my bot to physically start the server.
11:39<NGC3982>But i can't seem to get any output on what "start" actually tried to do (it didnt start anything).
11:40<NGC3982>Do i need to use a plugins.Soap.<setting> before "start", maybe? :>
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11:45<andythenorth>o/
11:45-!-yoshi1 [~yoshi@dsl-207-112-126-170.tor.primus.ca] has joined #openttd
11:46<yoshi1>how do i auto replace road vehicles?
11:46<yoshi1>the replacing button isnt showing up like it did for trains
11:49<yoshi1>also cant seem to auto replace old ginzu's with new ginzu's
11:49<@Alberth>wrong window used for the dropdown?
11:50<NGC3982>frosch123: What do you think? The Readme does not seem to state how i use the output of 'list Soap'.
11:50<NGC3982>By the way. It was a neat thing installing a fresh copy of OpenTTD in linux. The catalogue looks so ..empty.
11:51<yoshi1>Alberth: what window am i supposed to be using?
11:51<@Alberth>you don't have a ~/.openttd filled with everything?
11:51<@Alberth>the global RV list window
11:52<NGC3982>Yes, what i don't have is the four million .cfg files i have copied and changed trough the years
11:52<NGC3982>:-p
11:52<@Alberth>in particular, not one attached to a group or station
11:52<@Alberth>or order
11:52<yoshi1>i guess tyour not talking to me
11:53<@Alberth>yoshi1: the last 3 lines of me were
11:53<Jinassi>Yoshi, check that you have the right group selected, there's also type of vehicle you are replacing, if you have selected electric trains, you will nnot see steam trains on the replace window
11:53<yoshi1>i have no idea what your talking about this is a fresh install of openttd
11:54<@Alberth>Jinassi: yoshi1 wants to auto replace RVs
11:54<yoshi1>Jinassi: if i have ginzu's selected which is a steam engine you should see ginuzu's as a replace option no? for when your ginzu's get old
11:54*NGC3982 ruined a discussion :(.
11:54<yoshi1>and road vehicles i cant auto replace at a;ll
11:54<Jinassi>you cannot autoreplace with same vehicle
11:55<Jinassi>you can only auto renew, from the advanced settings
11:55<@Alberth>NGC3982: nah, some people just got confused to have 2 discussions at the same time :p
11:55<yoshi1>Jinassi: how do i access that advanced settings menu which allows auto renewing
11:55<Jinassi>hold gear button, advanced settings
11:55<Jinassi>make sure to select expert/all settings
11:56<Jinassi>then just search for keywords autorenew
12:02<NGC3982>Hm.
12:03<NGC3982>The OFS documentation tells me to put in the directory of OpenTTD executable
12:03<Taede>correct
12:03<NGC3982>That is not the OpenTTD directory, right?
12:03<Taede>yup
12:03<Taede>it is
12:03<NGC3982>Gah.
12:03<NGC3982>Then, i have no idea.
12:04<Taede>it can work elsewhere, but default values assume ofs-*.py is where the openttd executable resides
12:04<Taede>how did you install openttd?
12:04<NGC3982>wget and dpkg
12:04<NGC3982>It's in .openttd
12:04<NGC3982>so i put '/.openttd' in ofs-start.py
12:05<Taede>that usually only contains config files etc
12:05<Taede>the executable is probably somewhere in /usr/bin or somesuch
12:05<yoshi1>Jinassi: thanks that helps
12:05<NGC3982>Taede: Oh. That's what i thought.
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12:05<Taede>easier way of doing: create an openttd directory within the users' home directory
12:06<NGC3982>Done.
12:06<NGC3982>That's where .openttd is located.
12:06<NGC3982> /home/user/.openttd <-
12:06<Taede>do an svn checkout of the branch (stable/trunk/testing) you wish to use, and compile (./configure and make bundle)
12:06<NGC3982>I have no idea what a svn checkout is.
12:07<@Alberth>you can even skip make bundle :)
12:07<Taede>i'd advice to keep .openttd separate from the actual installation
12:07<@Alberth>"make" is enough
12:08<NGC3982>The "branch" is stable/nightlies or similar?
12:08<NGC3982>And is "svn checkout" == subversion?
12:08<Taede>svn checkout is similar to hg clone, xcept it uses svn. use 'svn checkout hg.openttd.org/something .' in the directory you wish to use (preferrably not ~/.openttd)
12:09<Taede>yup
12:09<@Alberth>andythenorth: you know tt-foundry.com is down?
12:10<NGC3982>Taede: What does it do? Checks for a new version?
12:10<NGC3982>And what directory would i want to use? The actual location of the openttd application? /usr/bin (if true)?
12:10<@Alberth>svn checkout on a hg path?
12:10<Taede>it downloads the openttd source code, from which you can compile
12:11<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
12:11<yoshi1>gah my main city started hating on me
12:11<Taede>you could use a pre-compiled zipfile, but i've not created an update script for that
12:11<yoshi1>i'm at appalling
12:13<NGC3982>Is Trunk the same as the "normal" version i download from the site?
12:13<@planetmaker>Alberth, NGC3982 while simply 'make' is enough, it's nevertheless a good idea to use 'make bundle' and then copy the bundle to a separate dir. That's nicer for updating a server
12:14<NGC3982>W..ok
12:14<@Alberth>oh, good point
12:14*NGC3982 breaths and takes one step at the time.
12:15<Taede>yup, means it can compile and modify the files in /bundle during compile, so the server only has to shutdown to actually copy the fresh executable and other files
12:18<andythenorth>Alberth: yes, it died a while ago :)
12:18<andythenorth>I never bothered redirecting the domain
12:18<NGC3982>It tells me that i have "no rules" for make, and stopping.
12:18<@Alberth>andythenorth: ok, it's just that some firs links point to it (in the projects list and the firs project home page)
12:18<andythenorth>ho
12:18<andythenorth>I should fix those
12:18<@Alberth>NGC3982: run ./configure first
12:19<NGC3982>I did.
12:19<andythenorth>Alberth: where abouts?
12:19<NGC3982>And it seem to succeed except zlib.
12:19<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects about 1/2 way down
12:20<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs
12:21<Taede>NGC3982, https://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_(GNU/)Linux_and_*BSD <-- should give some pointers wrt to compiling and missing dependencies
12:22<andythenorth>fixed thanks
12:22<NGC3982>Yes, I'm right there
12:22<@Alberth>NGC3982: then you probably don't have a Makefile due to that failure. Also, some libraries are just skipped when they are not found, and configure continues. That doesn't mean the end-result is good
12:23<NGC3982>I see.
12:23<NGC3982>The catalogue has a makefile, but make does not do anything.
12:24<@Alberth>pastebin the configure output?
12:26<NGC3982>http://paste.ubuntu.com/8903723/
12:26<@planetmaker>does give some hint, doesn't it?
12:27<@Alberth>NGC3982: I mean "Makefile" as in, without any extension
12:27<NGC3982>The only thing i see that seems to differ is that it does not detect zlib. It does not say it cancels the configure and it does not seem to be needed.
12:28<@Alberth>how do you read lne 37 and 38 ?
12:28<@planetmaker>^^
12:29<NGC3982>I take that as "Yes, the configuration was interrupted because zlib".
12:29<@planetmaker>'error' is the keyword
12:30<NGC3982>I took the "Doesn't require" litteraly.
12:30<NGC3982>./configure --enable-dedicated --without-zlib --without-lzma --without-liblzo2
12:30<@Alberth>last line tells me, that you need to add --without-zlib to ./configure to compile
12:30<NGC3982>Was the final verdict. :)
12:30<@Alberth>although I think you should install the libraries instead
12:31<@planetmaker>do yourself the pleasure of installing zlib, though
12:31<Taede>bbl, dinnertime
12:31<Quatroking>how do you guys name the vehicle groups of your multi-city passenger services?
12:31<Quatroking>for cars I usually just place a sign in the middle of the area and give it a name
12:32<Taede>once you succesfully do 'make bundle', make a copy of the bundle directory and call it 'server', then put the ofs-* files in there
12:32<yoshi1>whats tyhe best way to get a city out of appalling you and into liking you enough to let you build?
12:32<@planetmaker>you assume that I name my groups, Quatroking ;)
12:32<Taede>that will allow you to use most default values
12:32<Quatroking>I started doing it recently, makes stuff easier on the eyes
12:32<@planetmaker>yoshi1, patience. And good service. Or planting many trees withing 20 tiles of town centre
12:34<yoshi1>thanks
12:40<Quatroking>Remember: When the local government won't approve your construction, just plant a shitload of trees all over the damn place
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12:41<Quatroking>I suspect all OpenTTD cities of being a bunch of treehugging hippies
12:41<NGC3982>I guess i can abort the make, install the libs and reconfigure, and then make?
12:41<NGC3982>Or did i killdeath everything by running half a make.
12:41<NGC3982>Configure passed without notice..
12:46<NGC3982>I have used linux for five years, and this is my first make install.
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12:52<Marshy>Hola
12:55<Quatroking>what does the little + mean here? http://a.pomf.se/rcehbf.png
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>more than 10000 profit
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>(which is 20000€)
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>(last year)
12:58<Quatroking>ooh
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12:58<Eddi|zuHause>that's the threshold for the whole 100 points in the rating category
13:00<Quatroking>that's pretty neat
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13:08<NGC3982>There we are
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13:11<NGC3982>Taede: Game installed and svn co made.
13:12<NGC3982>How does this help me run OpenTTD from my supybot? :D
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13:19<NGC3982>a which command tells me it's /usr/games/openttd
13:19<NGC3982>So i'll try with that.
13:26<NGC3982>Nope.
13:26<NGC3982>No reaction, but no dismissal of command from supybot
13:26<NGC3982>So the plugin works, but the dedicated server does not.
13:34<@planetmaker>why would your self-compiled openttd be in /usr/games/openttd (unless you installed with sudo / root rights)?
13:34<NGC3982>I have no idea, that is what which told me. Can it be that i did not remove the older apg-get install:ed version?
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13:35<@planetmaker>it will report that preferentially
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure why youtube suggests this to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU4wJPqzstQ :p
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14:09<NGC3982>Right, i got it to work
14:09<NGC3982>OFS was not even needed for that part.
14:09<NGC3982>Now, my next issue is that text is troughput from game to IRC, but not the other way around
14:09<NGC3982>But that should be a config thing i'm missing.
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14:56<Taede>re
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17:52<Wolf01>'night all
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17:57<NGC3982>When installing and compiling from source, how do i start the game after that?
17:58<frosch123>by starting the binary in the bin folder
17:59<NGC3982>It does not seem to enjoy simply "openttd", whilst in the bin folder.
17:59<Sylf>in linux, you have to ./openttd
17:59<NGC3982>Ah, thanks.
17:59<Sylf>current directory is not a part of $PATH by default in linux
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18:03<frosch123>there are some crappy linux distributions which actually have it
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18:33<frosch123>night
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19:31<argoneus>ayy
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23:54<Supercheese>I knew the new NARS would generate some interesting comments, but sheesh....
23:58<Sylf>oh come on, the minute anyone removed any features, good or BAD, the world comes to an end.
23:58<Sylf>We all know that.
---Logclosed Mon Nov 10 00:00:51 2014