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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-11-10

---Logopened Mon Nov 10 00:00:51 2014
00:05<Pikkaphone>regearing was what made nars good, obviously.
00:05<Pikkaphone>I still want to know what about the gg1 and challenger, though.
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00:16<Supercheese>can GG1 be regeared?
00:16<Supercheese>perhaps he means that
00:18<Pikkaphone> it could
00:18<Pikkaphone>between 90 and 100mph from memory. Made bugger all difference.
00:19<Supercheese>yeah the primary places regearing was useful was when wagon speed limits were lowering your max speed anyway, so might as well gear down for more TE
00:19<Supercheese>express trains never had speed limit problems really
00:20<Supercheese>maybe he was using GG1s to haul freight :P
00:21<Pikkaphone>there are plenty of 65mph freight locos in the set though
00:21<Supercheese>his statements were perplexing
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01:50<Supercheese>Is there any way to extract vehicle ID other than decompiling the newgrf?
01:50<Supercheese>presuming no other documentation
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01:55<Supercheese>Newgrf debug window doesn't seem to have it
01:59<Pikkaphone>have what?
02:00<Supercheese>the vehicle ID
02:00<Supercheese>From earlier: Is there any way to extract vehicle ID other than decompiling the newgrf?
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02:01<andythenorth>Pikka: bonsoir and apples
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02:17<Supercheese>ugh NFO is entirely unreadable
02:18<V453000>discovery :P
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02:24<Supercheese>too bad we can't decompile to NML
02:24<Supercheese>that would be quite the chore to code I imagine
02:27<Supercheese>Ouch apparently NUTS and YETI do not have, "a sprinkle of magic".
02:27<Pikka>bonsoir andythenorth
02:27<V453000>what does that mean Supercheese
02:29<V453000>I think Alberth excludes those two from that :P
02:33<@planetmaker>Sylf, for future, can you not zip the attachment when uploading to our bug tracker? :)
02:34<@planetmaker>it always adds an additional step to download, unzip and save in needed places
02:34<@planetmaker>and compressing savs and pngs is mostly pointless anyway
02:35<NGC3982>Isn't there a stable branch in svn co?
02:35<andythenorth>Pikka: NARS is all hand-written nfo? No code generator? o_O
02:35<@planetmaker>svn has it all. But not the trunk repository
02:35<@peter1138>Edit One: What's New Coke?
02:36<V453000>how do you think nuts is written andythenorth :P
02:36<Pikka>monkeys at typewriters, V
02:37<NGC3982>What is the right svn repository for stable? The readme does not say.
02:37<NGC3982>If that's a word.
02:37<andythenorth>Pikka: was thinking about adding the regeared units to the buy menu
02:37<@planetmaker> and the releases in like
02:37<andythenorth>the foamers would love it
02:37<@planetmaker>you might need to adjust path without ssh
02:37<andythenorth>SD40-2 (coal drag service)
02:38<andythenorth>SD40-2 (manifest service)
02:38<andythenorth>SD40-2 (hotshot)
02:38<andythenorth>dibble the weight too
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02:38<Pikka>yes but where is the livery of the one I have a photo of on my bedroom wall? This set is so incomplete.
02:38<@peter1138>07:24 < Supercheese> too bad we can't decompile to NML
02:39<@peter1138>That would be like decompiling to C. It is possible but not particularly useful.
02:39<Supercheese>would beat the hell out of NFO
02:39<@peter1138>No, it wouldn't.
02:39<Pikka>Andy: also, what about the GG1 and the Challenger?
02:40<NGC3982>PM: For some reason, it feels easier for me to simply download the source from the site.
02:40<Supercheese>NML is readable
02:40<andythenorth>Pikka: what about them? o_O
02:40<Pikka>exactly! What about them?
02:40<NGC3982>I plague you with enough Linux guidance.
02:40<@peter1138>Supercheese, decompiled NML wouldn't particularly be readable.
02:40<@peter1138>Like decompiled C isn't particularly readable.
02:40<Pikka>Look, I'm sorry if I'm being a pessimist, but I'm speaking my mind. What happened to the GG1? What about the Challenger? In my view, 2.03 was more advanced than UKRS2 of now.
02:40<Supercheese>Well, perhaps
02:41<andythenorth>the only bad thing is that he thinks you did it because you ran out of time
02:41<Supercheese>I do not know enough to predict what decompiled NML would look like
02:41<andythenorth>or aren’t smart enough
02:41<Pikka>yes but the GG1 and challenger are both still in the set.
02:41<Supercheese>I suppose I am over-assuming
02:41<andythenorth>Pikka: shameful
02:42<andythenorth>you should make them bigger
02:42<@planetmaker>svn:// | NGC3982
02:42<andythenorth>and flashing
02:42<@planetmaker>Supercheese, there's a test case for that in ancient FIRS
02:42<Pikka>I should remove everything except the GG1 and challenger is what I should do.
02:42<@planetmaker>unfortunately the conversion code vanished along with yexo vanishing
02:42<andythenorth>Dear player
02:42<andythenorth>Thankyou for your valued opinions.
02:43<andythenorth>When making an omelette, eggs must be broken.
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02:44<Supercheese>Well, I did like generational vehicles, regearing, and the lot. But I had to acknowledge and work around the multiple issues they brought with them
02:44<Supercheese>HEP I never liked
02:45<Supercheese>newer NARS is better NARS
02:46<@planetmaker> <-- like that, Supercheese
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02:48<Supercheese>ah, which if any is decompiled?
02:49<NGC3982>If i install an initial stable source, and then do a svn update. Does it only check for the newest stable version?
02:49<NGC3982>Note, if the initial install was not a svn co.
02:50<@planetmaker>NGC3982, for switching between releases you need to use svn switch, not svn update
02:50<andythenorth>Pikka: I was serious about the gearing options in buy menu btw :P
02:52<@planetmaker>Supercheese, this is the first version where the de-compiled code was added:
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02:55<NGC3982>PM: I see. I found it in the wiki.
02:56<Supercheese>hah, interesting rounding error: "prospect_chance: 0.749999999942;"
02:58<NGC3982>This is still a thing.
02:58<NGC3982>Starting a source compiled version (latest trunk or 1.4.4) makes dedicated server unable to start after closing it the first time.
02:59<NGC3982>It changes the IPv4 from to <my external ip>:3979. It does not help to change it in the (only) cfg available, and i need to remove the config each time.
03:03<@peter1138>All versions are compiled from source...
03:03<@peter1138>Are you saying it doesn't happen with our provided binaries, or that you haven't tried them?
03:03<NGC3982>I have never encountered it when using apt-get or dpkg.
03:04<@peter1138>[server_bind_addresses] is blank for me
03:05<NGC3982>"f ="
03:06<@peter1138>Is all it contains?
03:06<NGC3982>I removed it, and it does not make any difference.
03:09<@peter1138>Hmm. When I do openttd -D, I get every message after "Detected broadcast addresses:" (and the IPs) twice...?
03:11<@peter1138>Try again with server_bind_addresses blank?
03:11<NGC3982>That works - the first time.
03:11<NGC3982>If i empty server_bind_addresses, the server starts and it tells me it's listening on
03:12<NGC3982>Closing the server and starting it with the same command again recreated the problem, and server_bind_addresses turns "f =".
03:13<@peter1138>NGC3982, try openttd -c openttd.cfg -D
03:13<NGC3982>That works.
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03:30<@peter1138>I only get something in server_bind_addresses with I give -D a parameter. -c openttd.cfg isn't and shouldn't be a parameter of -D.
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03:52*peter1138 gravedigs that post :p
03:56*NGC3982 saves valuable information on the intarwebz
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05:16<__ln__>yo bruce
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>"wayne interessierts"
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05:34<Dakkus>Hello! I'm trying to compile a version of OpenTTD, because I want to play with daylength alteration on my Mac.
05:34<Dakkus>The compiling went just fine for a long time, but crashed with screenshot.cpp.
05:35<Dakkus>I'm not terribly interested in the ability to take screenshots, so I'd like to just disable the feature to get the game to compile. How?
05:37<Dakkus>Well, hanged, died, stopped, ended, failed.
05:37<Dakkus>I don't really know which verb to use.
05:37<Dakkus>But in any case, I didn't get to say make install.
05:38<Dakkus>[SRC] Compiling screenshot.cpp
05:38<Dakkus>/Users/dakkus/Desktop/ottd/s2013pp/src/screenshot.cpp: In function ‘void SaveMinimap()’:
05:38<Dakkus>/Users/dakkus/Desktop/ottd/s2013pp/src/screenshot.cpp:972: error: ‘MakePNGImage’ was not declared in this scope
05:38<Dakkus>make[1]: *** [screenshot.o] Error 1
05:38<Dakkus>make: *** [all] Error 1
05:39<@peter1138>Take it up with your patch-pack maintainer.
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>that is not part of the official code, so you must talk to the person who made that patchpack
05:39<Dakkus>Okay, I was just hoping there would be some generic way of disabling code.
05:39<andythenorth>comment it out :D
05:39*andythenorth sorry, unhelpful
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, "#if 0" and "#endif" :p
05:40<Dakkus>What I'm gonna do now is this: mv src/screenshot.cpp src/screenshot.cpp.old; touch src/screenshot.cpp
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>or "/*" and "*/"
05:40<Dakkus>Should work?
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
05:40<Dakkus>Seems to compile past that point just fine, but you think I'm gonna have a defunct game in the end?
05:41<@peter1138>It won't link.
05:41<Dakkus>Sorry, didn't understand.
05:41<__ln__>It will not l-i-n-k.
05:41<Dakkus>Ah, thanks! ;)
05:41<Dakkus>You mean like in Zelda?
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>if someone does not understand something, repeat it louder and slower :p
05:42<b_jonas>It's dangerous to go alone.
05:42<Dakkus>Hm, now:
05:42<Dakkus>/Users/dakkus/Desktop/ottd/s2013pp/src/viewport.cpp:1447: warning: ‘void ViewportAddLandscape_new()’ defined but not used
05:42<Dakkus>I don't think I can just disable ViewPort.
05:42<Dakkus>Is there any way of getting the time to run slower in the game so that it will actually function on my computer? ;)
05:43<andythenorth>either the patchpack is borked, or you need better ./configure flags for OpenTTD
05:43<andythenorth>Dakkus: find a mac binary of a patchpack with daylength patch?
05:43<andythenorth>dunno if there are any
05:43<Dakkus>Found one, it didn't run.
05:43<andythenorth>can you compile trunk openttd on OS X?
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05:43<Dakkus>Could try just to find out where the problem lies.
05:44<Pikka>the answer lies in the soil
05:45<Pikka>andythenorth, you're running the NARS2 addon show then? I'm sure that will make lots of forumites very happy. ;)
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05:46<andythenorth>Pikka: yes or no
05:46<Dakkus>Is there, BTW, a reason why vanilla OpenTTD doesn't include the daylength option?
05:46<Dakkus>Or does it and I just don't know?
05:46<andythenorth>it doesn’t work
05:47<andythenorth>and none of the many patches can make it work
05:47<Dakkus>How does the non-working manifest itself?
05:47<andythenorth>and it’s a stupid idea also
05:47<Dakkus>How come+
05:48<Dakkus>I'm always annoyed by locomotives coming and going obsolete before I get a chance to use them.
05:48<andythenorth>which ones?
05:48<andythenorth>in newgrfs? o_O
05:48<andythenorth>or in the default game?
05:49<Dakkus>Well, in my previous game with the Finnish trainset, I managed to build maybe one or two trains of the type Sm1.
05:49<andythenorth>ok, so that’s a defective newgrf ;)
05:49<Dakkus>Dunno, they appear on the year they are supposed to appear, around 1968.
05:49<andythenorth>one problem with ‘daylength’ is that different people want different things from it
05:49<Dakkus>And the Sm4 comes out at around 1996.
05:49<andythenorth>do you use build-while-paused?
05:50<Dakkus>And the 30 years were spint twiggling my airline system to function.
05:50<Dakkus>I could also just edit the newgrf so that the trains would appear much later.
05:50<andythenorth>peter1138, rename ‘build-while-paused’ to ‘daylength’? o_O
05:51<andythenorth>could we have a pause mode where the ticks keep ticking
05:51<Dakkus>So, count from the year when I'm beginning the game and change a locomotive that should appear 38 years into playing the game to appear 5*38 years into playing the game.
05:51<andythenorth>but the date is unchanged
05:51<Dakkus>Pikka: Sounds good ;)
05:51<andythenorth>Dakkus: yes, modding the newgrf is the most reliable solution
05:51<andythenorth>it doesn’t break industry production etc
05:52<Pikka>or just turn on vehicles never expire and don't build any sm4s until you've got enough sm1s? :)
05:52<andythenorth>that too
05:52<Dakkus>So, I should change the introduction year and also the lifetime.
05:52<Dakkus>So that instead of some 20 years the locomotive would keep functioning for 5*20 years.
05:52<andythenorth>openttd already fucks around with newgrf vehicle intro dates for randomisation?
05:52<andythenorth>we just put a multiplier into the random(17) or whatever?
05:52<andythenorth>including 0
05:52<andythenorth>for those who really want fixed dates
05:53<Dakkus>Pikka: Nah, I know myself, that would never work with me :D
05:53<@peter1138>30 years game-time wasn't enough to use an engine?
05:53<Dakkus>Not with my way of playing.
05:53<@peter1138>That's 6 *hours* of playing time.
05:53<Dakkus>Spending too much time making the track layout perfect ;)
05:53<Dakkus>Sounds non-bad :)
05:53<Pikka>puild while baused
05:54<Dakkus>But I still would like the game to take longer.
05:54<Dakkus>Build-while-paused is indeed a solution.
05:54<andythenorth>I used to use build-while-paused for everything
05:54<Sacro>yeah but multiplayer isn't really feasble
05:54<andythenorth>I can’t any more because it keeps defaulting to ‘off'
05:54<andythenorth>Sacro: yes, multiplayer isn’t really feasible (anyway)
05:54<andythenorth>MP is a BAD FEATURE
05:55<Pikka>"realism" and MP are incompatible, at least
05:55<andythenorth>full of griefers :D
05:55<andythenorth>and de-syncs
05:55<andythenorth>those naughty newgrfs
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05:56<Pikka>andy: do you customise newgrfs for your own use?
05:56<andythenorth>Pikka: I have been known to
05:56<andythenorth>some of the ones I have customised include:
05:56<andythenorth>FIRS, Squid, CHIPS
05:56<Pikka>ridiculous forum thread.
05:56<andythenorth>the best
05:58<Pikka>also apparently the current wisdom from reddit is that to increase industry production, your trains need to reach 117 km/h.
05:59<Jinassi>why not 88mph then..and supply 1,2 jigawatts too
06:00<andythenorth>Pikka: isn’t that true?
06:00<andythenorth>based on station rating?
06:00<Pikka>>60% of production transported
06:01<Pikka>is the only thing that affects production increase probability, afaia?
06:01<andythenorth>yair, but you have to allow for move_cargo_to_station or whatever it is called
06:01<andythenorth>which depends on rating :P
06:01*andythenorth dunno :P
06:01<Pikka>only indirectly
06:02<Pikka>I'm also fairly sure that nothing in OpenTTD is measuring how fast the trains actually go, ratings only care about the stated top speed.
06:03<andythenorth>ah that
06:03<andythenorth>I always assume reddit is smarter than me
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06:03<andythenorth>full of VERY CLEVER PEOPLE
06:03<Pikka>almost as full as the forums
06:03<Pikka>and the IRC channel :)
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06:33<V453000>oh look what a smart person joined the irc
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06:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'm probably not seeing what you're seeing :p
06:39<V453000>andythesouth rejoining
06:53<V453000>I think I got my 8/8 and 4/8 offsets done =D
06:53<V453000>a few details, and just models after that :D
07:05<V453000>edit: no. :D
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07:13<V453000>@base 77
07:13<@DorpsGek>V453000: Error: '77' is not a valid base.
07:13<V453000>@base 16 10 77
07:13<@DorpsGek>V453000: 119
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07:17<Eddi|zuHause>just use 0x77 in the code?
07:19<V453000>isnt in the code
07:20<V453000>just in my wtf sprite-creating pipeline
07:20<V453000>or can I use 0x77 in spriteset template? :D
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>you can use 0x77 in any place that expects a number
07:21<V453000>right :)
07:21<V453000>am not sure atm which way is more convenient
07:21<V453000>re-calculating or direct thing
07:27<V453000>ok I will leave the hexa shit there :D
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08:20<itsatacoshop247>Just curious, whats the reason for the 15 company limit in multiplayer?
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08:21<__ln__>probably bits
08:22<itsatacoshop247>ahhh right, sorta leads into it
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08:28<@peter1138>It's a nice limit.
08:32<Quatroking>16 is nicer tho
08:32<Quatroking>because powers of two
08:33<__ln__>what's nice about powers of two
08:33<@planetmaker>Quatroking, 15 is powers of two... the server needs an ID, too. And counting starts with 0.
08:33<Quatroking>oh, so the server occupies a company slot
08:34<@planetmaker>or rather it needs some way it can be expressed as 'neutral'
08:34<ginko_>Can I change with how much money I start on a new map?
08:34<ginko_>It's 200k by default (openTTD 1.4.4)
08:34<Quatroking>you can take a loan
08:35<ginko_>But I can't say "set starting money to 2 Million"?!
08:35<@planetmaker>not that much, no
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08:35<Quatroking>you could recompile
08:35<Quatroking>and there's always the cheat menu
08:36<ginko>k not a big problem though
08:36<ginko>Thanks :)
08:36<@planetmaker>there's probably no good reason to disallow larger intitial loans other than "then the game is totally pointless wrt money". But hey, it's that already...
08:37<V453000>you could change costs by basecosts, and change your currency
08:37<V453000>make everything super cheap / half price for example
08:37<V453000>but make the currency look like it is the same
08:37<V453000>so if you have 500 000 max, you can make it 2 000 000 with everything priced /4
08:38<V453000>setting up basecosts is probably somewhat tedious since there is a lot of parameters :)
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08:39<Quatroking>ginko, are you having trouble making money?
08:39<ginko>planetmaker if you start with such a loan, you would have to pay high interests I assume
08:40<__ln__>is it still the case that if you start a game from, say, year 2030, all the vehicles and stuff cost fortunes, but the max initial loan is still £100,000 or so?
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08:40<Quatroking>on a loan of 2000000 you pay like 40000 interest a year I believe
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08:40<ginko>Quatroking Not really, just asking, it's the thought of "building the perfect infrastructure", and therefore to start off with enough money to start building it
08:40<__ln__>so you can barely buy anything with even the max loan.
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>the interest is a joke
08:40<V453000>the interest rates are very low
08:41<ginko>They are indeed ;)
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08:45<ginko>Do cities grow over time, with new buildings being built and such?
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>they grow faster the more stations you have in that town
08:46<ginko>Eddi|zuHause k thanks :)
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>(as in the number of station signs)
08:47<ginko>This game will have me pinned in front of the computer for so many hours to come...
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>hours? YEARS.
08:47<ginko>Please tell me I am not the only grown-up here :D
08:48<@peter1138>You may be an adult, but you're not grown-up... right?
08:48<argoneus>no, this channel is full of children
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>let's phrase it like this: almost everybody in here played the original release in 1994(-ish) :p
08:48<ginko>argoneus The thought just was funny
08:48<ginko>Everybody in here being something like 12 :D
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>mentally, maybe :p
08:48<__ln__>@seen PeterT
08:48<@DorpsGek>__ln__: PeterT was last seen in #openttd 4 years, 2 weeks, 2 days, 15 hours, 51 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <PeterT> TrueBrain: who is a PeterT in the making?
08:49<argoneus>a 12 year old can't make a valid argument for why block signals are useful
08:49<@peter1138>Nobody can, because they're not.
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>there are no valid arguments for why block signals are useful
08:49<argoneus>priority lanes etc etc yada yada
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>those are not valid
08:49*argoneus paging V453000
08:50<V453000>V453000 does not consider it worth his time to explain it again
08:50<ginko>And I am going to like this channel
08:50<V453000>might write an article to point people to at some point
08:50<argoneus>I will upvote your article
08:50<ginko>Well I am 22, so not old at all I guess
08:50<@peter1138>argoneus, are you 12, then?
08:50<argoneus>peter1138: I wish I was 12
08:50<argoneus>no fucks to give, video games all day
08:51<ginko>Those were the times
08:51<@peter1138>Because you appear to be unable make a valid argument, and want to rely on V453000 :)
08:51<argoneus>it's not my fault you guys don't see my argument as valid
08:51<@peter1138>When I was 12, I went to school.
08:51<argoneus>it's not like I can convince you
08:51<ginko>When I was 12, school was a joke
08:51<argoneus>yeah, school was from like 8 to 12
08:51<argoneus>now school is from 8 to 21
08:51<argoneus>because reasons
08:52<@peter1138>Hours or years?
08:52<argoneus>pick one
08:52<argoneus>I'm sure you know which one
08:53<@peter1138>Not really, been a while since I went to school.
08:53<ginko>7:50 to 12:40 a few years ago, with afternoon lessons from 13:40 to 15 and 15:15 to 16:45 some days
08:53<argoneus>my monday right now
08:53<ginko>(Germany - Bavaria - Gymnasium ;)
08:53<argoneus>is nonstop from 11 to 18
08:53<argoneus>without a break for lunch ;_;
08:53<argoneus>work is so much more chill in many aspects
08:53<argoneus>I can eat three lunches if I want to
08:53<ginko>Mine is non-stop doing nothing from 6 am to whenever I want to go to sleep
08:54<ginko>Depressed supposed-to-do-something not-knowing-what-to-do-in-life student
08:54<argoneus>I wish I had your problems ginko
08:54<argoneus>I always have things to do
08:54<argoneus>but my urge to play quality videogames is stronger
08:54<@planetmaker>hey, w/o block signals one couldn't built an ALU within OpenTTD ;)
08:54<ginko>argoneus You don't wish to have my problems
08:55<ginko>A free day doesn't mean anything if it is spent procrastinating while being depressed
08:55<argoneus>don't toss around the word depression
08:55<argoneus>being frustrated about something != depression
08:55<ginko>I know what depression is
08:55<ginko>And it's no fun
08:55<argoneus>ah, ok :<
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09:01<ginko>argoneus Good thing though, what you did
09:01<ginko>"Depression" is a word used to soon by so many that don't understand what it really implies
09:02<argoneus>it irritates me when people are like
09:02<argoneus>"doh I'm so depressed today"
09:02<ginko>Which is a fair saying
09:02<ginko>It's a figure of speech that doesn't imply that one is clinically depressed I'd say
09:03<ginko>But yeah, the word depression, many people don't get it
09:03<argoneus>I dunno
09:03<argoneus>it seems to me like if people were saying
09:03<argoneus>"Dammit, I have AIDS today again"
09:03<argoneus>makes about the same amount of sense to me
09:04<ginko>No, cause there is a difference between having an illness, and having symptoms connected to a given illness
09:04<ginko>Being depressed is just a temporary state of mind if you are not clinically depressed
09:05<ginko>You say "I am depressed today", you don't say "I have a depression today"
09:05<argoneus>I guess
09:05<blathijs>I guess the word just has taken on a range of meanings in common language usage
09:05<ginko>"I couldn't sleep", you don't say "I had insomnia last night"
09:05<ginko>Yeah, every word has
09:05<argoneus>people do :(
09:06<ginko>People say "I had insomnia" last night :D
09:06<V453000>I say: fuck cares, get happy or do something :)
09:06<ginko>I guess this is meant to be provocative
09:06<blathijs>And if a word means two things, it can be frustrating for people that care for one of those things and don't want that thing to be seen as equal to the other meaning of the word
09:07<ginko>Because to say to a depressed person he should just snap out of it, is like saying to a cancer patient, he should just feel more energetic and that's it
09:07<V453000>if someone is depressed then they probably need to find something to live for
09:07<blathijs>"Hunger" is a similar word. People often say, "you're not hungry, people in Africa are hungry. You just have an apetite", but that also disregards the fact that a word can have more thant one specific meaning
09:07<V453000>which would bring them happiness
09:07<argoneus>V453000: or they need pills
09:08<argoneus>depression is mostly a chemical process
09:08<V453000>ok :d
09:08<ginko>V453000 there is a seriously big difference between "knowing what's wrong" and changing your state of mind
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know where you went to school "from 8 to 12", but a regular school day around here was 7:30 to 13:30, occasionally 14:30
09:08<@peter1138>V453000 is a perfect example of completely misunderstanding depression.
09:08<V453000>thanks peter1138
09:08*argoneus has known someone with severe psychological problems
09:09<argoneus>saying "snap out of it" only makes it worse :<
09:09<@planetmaker>quite so
09:09<ginko>It's like let's say you have a insane fear of dogs because of something that happened in your childhood, you can't just turn that off, even though rationally you know it's stupid. You can change it, but is a process, not just a "rationally I know it's stupid, so let's dump that fear", it's the same for people who are depressed for various reasons
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>and this school day included a warm lunch (if you chose to have one)
09:09<ginko>+ what argoneus said, it being able to be a lack of certain chemicals
09:10<argoneus>it's kind of scary
09:10<argoneus>some medicine these people have to take
09:10<argoneus>messes up the body real good
09:10<argoneus>and they have a chance of having random heart attacks etc
09:10<ginko>Of course
09:10<argoneus>and it's addictive as fuck
09:10<ginko>Body and Mind always go together
09:10<argoneus>it's literally drugs
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>and typically you would have out-of-school activities around 2 times per week in the afternoon
09:10<@peter1138>Medicine for depression allows people to function. It doesn't make them better.
09:10<ginko>Every medication is a pro vs con
09:11<argoneus>it's like taking a painkiller for your brain
09:11<ginko>And with clinically depressed, the pros in many cases outweigh the cons by quite some margin
09:11<__ln__>it's been said electricity is more effective than medicine.
09:12<ginko>I personally don't take any, but know people who do
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i kinda doubt generic statements like that.
09:12<argoneus>the problem is
09:12<argoneus>that with psychological issues
09:12<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: for treating depression. not for anything.
09:12<argoneus>it's not like a cold that people know what virus causes the cold
09:13<argoneus>and can prescribe things
09:13<argoneus>every "depressed" patient is a unique case
09:13<argoneus>and reacts differently to medicine
09:13<ginko>Every person is unique
09:13<argoneus>it's too broad of a topic to cover in a channel about trains
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: many cases of depression have physical causes that are very removed from the symptom
09:13<ginko>Not just when we talk about depression. I mean there are allergic reactions to things like normal antibiotics, so you never treat two patients exactly the same I guess
09:14<argoneus>antibiotics just kill bacteria until you're better
09:14<argoneus>which is why you need to eat yoghurts etc
09:14<ginko>Eddi|zuHause It's also the other way around. Many Illnesses people have, have psychological causes (like lack of energy, being tired all day, feeling weak, chronically having a flue, et cetera)
09:14<argoneus>because your stomach and bowel bacterias are kill
09:15<argoneus>but at least
09:15<argoneus>when you have some bacterias
09:15<argoneus>the doctors can at least tell what kind of bacterias
09:16<argoneus>but if you have depression, they can't just look in your brain and find it
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>in the end, psychic treatments are often of the form "we try different ones until one works"
09:16<argoneus>it can be a lot of things
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>because the chains of cause and effect are often not fully understood
09:16<argoneus>it's like people
09:16<argoneus>who have epilepsy or such
09:16<argoneus>and then they undergo an unrelated procedure
09:16<argoneus>and suddenly they don't have epilepsy
09:16<argoneus>and no one knows why
09:17<argoneus>it's scary
09:17<ginko>There are two very great books called Bad Science and Bad Pharma by Ben Goldacre, that basically let you know in detail, about placebo effect, and how to properly set up studies, mistakes people make, how bad the media works with there "science reporting" and so forth
09:18<ginko>This whole debate reminds a little bit about the chapters on homeopathy and placebo in the book "Bad Science"
09:18<argoneus>the sad thing is
09:18<argoneus>that media is a business
09:18<ginko>So, honorary mention at this point
09:18<argoneus>and the goal of a business is to make money
09:18<argoneus>so there's a lot of click baiting and information twisting
09:19<argoneus>at least from my experience, that is, not all sources are like that probably
09:19<ginko>For example: People with a certain kind of stomach ache where told, that they were given medicine, but not only were they not given a placebo, but a medication, that would under normal circumstances worsen their symptoms. But they were told it would help them
09:20<ginko>In the end it still helped them (worse than a placebo or the real medication would have, but it still helped)
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>ginko: there is no medical doubt that the placebo effect is real.
09:20<ginko>Really shows you how "Alternative healers" can give whatever the fuck they want
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>funny thing about the placebo effect: it works better on highly educated people
09:20<ginko>I did not know that ;)
09:20<ginko>But if true, interesting indeed
09:22<ginko>One last question before I have to go: Just out of interest, what is the demographic of this channel / openTTD userbase in general? Mostly Americans, or Europeans, ...?
09:23<argoneus>mostly dutchmen with long names
09:23<argoneus>and two slavs
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know about now, but a few years ago it was about equally divided between germans, dutch and english, a bit of other europeans, and marginal in other places
09:29<V453000>I think that stayed +-
09:29<@planetmaker>don't underestimate the CZ faction ;)
09:30<@planetmaker>but probably 2/3 account for Dutch, German and British here
09:31<Xaroth|Work>if it aint dutch, it aint much!
09:31<@planetmaker>better put more sand on your dikes ;)
09:31<__ln__>do danes still count as dutch?
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>the game gained some casual audience in america due to youtube/streaming/whatever exposure, but that hasn't really reflected upon this channel
09:32<argoneus>I sure hope not __ln__
09:32<Xaroth|Work>only if they are great danes.
09:32<@planetmaker>to the same degree that pi equals 3, yes
09:33<argoneus>dutch is an interesting language though
09:33<argoneus>weird words like "gedeerijk" (just made that up)
09:33<argoneus>(looks dutch enough)
09:34<Xaroth|Work>now if you had said Gedeeltelijk...
09:34<Xaroth|Work>that would actually be dutch :P
09:35<argoneus>I hope it doesn't mean anything naughty
09:35<argoneus>like "I fukd ur mom last nite"
09:35<Xaroth|Work>it means Partially
09:35<argoneus>I'll remember that :D
09:35<argoneus>I only know one valid phrase, but it's kinda naughty :(
09:35<__ln__>the amount of hungarians has decreased since the early days.
09:36<@planetmaker>probably a language thing ;)
09:36<argoneus>I asked a dutchman to teach me something dutch, and he taught me "argoneus heeft lol met zijn lul"
09:36<V453000>hungarians got hungry
09:36<argoneus>apparently it's informal or something
09:37<argoneus>like, nothing you'd find in a dictionary
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know any dutch, but that sure sounds nasty :p
09:38<argoneus>I thought you were a dutchman Eddi|zuHause :O
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>you haven't been listening very closely, then.
09:38<@planetmaker>you think that of many people from their Eastern neighbour ;)
09:38<argoneus>are you german then
09:38<ginko>Eddi|zuHause Sounds good :)
09:38<ginko>(regarding your comments about users' nationality)
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09:39<Eddi|zuHause>there went our entire canadian demographics
09:39<@planetmaker>oh noes!
09:39<@planetmaker>@seen danmack
09:39<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: danmack was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 8 hours, 55 minutes, and 48 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
09:39<argoneus>probably went to hockey practice
09:39<V453000>planetmaker and Eddi are both from the Moon
09:40<argoneus>oh, I was actually wondering about this a while ago
09:40<@planetmaker>nah, I'm from Mars. But they haven't found my home yet ;)
09:40<argoneus>if someone killed someone else on the ISS
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'm somewhere along the way between V453000 and planetmaker
09:40<argoneus>which country's laws would apply?
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09:40<@planetmaker>argoneus, the space treaty would apply
09:40<argoneus>is that a set of space laws?
09:40<argoneus>never heard of it
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: similar to how laws are treated in open seas etc.
09:41<@planetmaker>and inside the vessel the law of the country which whose flag that vessel flies. Like for marine vessels
09:41<argoneus>so basically
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose each part of the ISS has a country attached to it
09:41<@planetmaker>it does so, yes
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>so it depends on which room they wer in
09:41<argoneus>if a president flew to china, and they killed him on the chinese airport in his airplane
09:41<argoneus>he'd be judged by the president's country's laws?
09:42<argoneus>because the plane "carries" the clay of the country?
09:42<@planetmaker>not when it's landed or docked
09:43<@planetmaker>law is tricky there :) Your vessels law only applies outside the 12 miles zone
09:43<@planetmaker>in no-mans land
09:43<argoneus>a-are you a law graduate?
09:43<@planetmaker>not at all
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>let's imagine an unknown person with likely ukranian nationality shoots down a malaysian airplane with mostly dutch people being killed. which country's laws will he be judged in?
09:43<@planetmaker>but you get the lessons when you do a skipper license
09:43<V453000>pm is everything graduate
09:43<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: is that hypothethical
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>very hypothetical
09:44<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: none
09:44<argoneus>I think the plane wouldn't be found
09:44<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, obviously the DenHaag court ;)
09:45<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, but as every participating nation has signed the geneva convention... there can't be much disagreement. Theoretically
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>well, if they theoretically ever found out who actually fired the shot.
09:47<argoneus>it was kind of stupid though
09:47<argoneus>to fly over a warzone
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>last i heard was that they're still trying to get various (mostly US) intelligence agencies to actually release any information
09:47<argoneus>unnecessary deaths :/
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09:48<argoneus>I don't want to wear a tinfoil hat, but I'd imagine the agencies already know who did it, just don't want to kill their relations
09:49<argoneus>it's hard to imagine that in today's day and age a plane would just disappear without anyone knowing what actually happened
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>like, imagine a malaysian plane went missing and no trace was ever found?
09:50<argoneus>I think someone should know
09:50<argoneus>I mean it's a huge airplane with all sorts of devices and backup devices on it
09:51<argoneus>it's actually mind boggling how much goes into airplane security
09:51<argoneus>the airplanes are checked all the time and have all sorts of safety measures and backup systems and procedures
09:51<argoneus>plus the guy in the tower can see it all the time
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09:51<argoneus>so unless there was some sort of interference that prevented the communication, it shouldn't be able to just disappear
09:54<@planetmaker>argoneus, "how much goes into airplane security" is mostly a joke
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09:54<Eddi|zuHause>well, in the recent years there is a huge discrepancy between actual security and "PR security" (which is more like supersticion)
09:55<@planetmaker>it's mostly show to deter any people even trying. And then things happen like you can drive onto the airfield with a van and trailer which goes totally unchecked by just showing briefly a badge you applied for half a year earlier
09:55<argoneus>airplanes today can fly even if the engines die, they have backup radios, they have TCAS (not to crash into other airplanes), they have a 3D terrain monitor
09:55<@planetmaker>I could have gone there with tons of explosives and remote or timed detonators
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>no plane will ever be safer because you had to take off your shoes and can't bring that bottle of water on the plane
09:55<@planetmaker>with direct access to the big planes flown by DHL, UPS etc
09:55<argoneus>you mean airplane security with the people inside the plane
09:55<argoneus>not the airplane itself
09:56<argoneus>if someone sneaks up a bomb on board, and explodes the entire plane
09:56<argoneus>then it'll probably disappear and shatter into pieces
09:56<argoneus>but a satellite should be able to have logs of such a thing?
09:56<@planetmaker>and one of my friends, a chemist, keeps telling me that he can bring down any plane with two bottles of clear liquid of 50ml each
09:56<@planetmaker>I've no reason to doubt him
09:56<argoneus>I'm sure he's on a list somewhere
09:56<argoneus>and us too, now
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09:57<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: well the dangerous thing is that any effort that goes in this PR bullshit will actively prevent real security
09:57<argoneus>well, one thing I stand by
09:57<@planetmaker>I'm surely on a list ;) When sending encrypted e-mails I usually use titles like 'uranium', 'bomb', ... ;)
09:57<argoneus>if airplanes flew without passengers
09:57<argoneus>they'd be the safest means of transport in the world
09:57<argoneus>even safer than walking across the road
09:58<@planetmaker>define 'safety'
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>like this "war on drugs" where they spend exorbitant amounts of money on, and that actually CREATES the income-margins for the drug lords
09:58<argoneus>safety meaning that if you go from A to B you are less likely to die
09:58<argoneus>than crossing the road
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>the more money they spend on reducing the opium harvest in afghanistan, the higher the opium harvest gets
09:59<@planetmaker>"the price of freedom is eternal vigilance" ;) But what to look out for? And how?
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>which even makes sense, because the EU uses that exact same mechanism to drive up the prices for food products
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10:10<V453000>yapf.rail_lastred_penalty = 1000
10:10<V453000>when does this apply<
10:10<V453000>firstred is clear
10:10<V453000>but lastred<
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10:11<Eddi|zuHause>lastred is the signal before the destination station
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>that will generally decide whether the platform is free or not
10:12<V453000>ah rignt
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>(that was before the reservation of tiles under the train made this distinction redundant)
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12:38<Eddi|zuHause>"appeals court in itally acquits scientists which were previously convicted of not predicting the l'aquila earthquake of 2009"
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13:07<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, phew
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15:12<Wolf01>hi hi
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15:50<andythenorth>no cat?
15:51<Wolf01>you lost it again?
15:53<Wolf01>btw, tomorrow I'll purchase the LEGO exo-suite and the tumbler ucs
15:54<andythenorth>tumbler is big
15:54<andythenorth>saw it in a shop
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15:54<Wolf01>the office is plenty of space
15:54<Wolf01>I already have the simpson's house and the r2d2 ucs
15:55<Wolf01>customers always like that stuff :P
16:04<andythenorth>should I snow-sprites CHIPS?
16:04<andythenorth>for christmas?
16:05<andythenorth>would you do the nfo?
16:05<andythenorth>I can’t
16:05<andythenorth>don’t understand it
16:05<@planetmaker>meh the nfo. I'd try. No guarantee I'll succeed
16:05<andythenorth>it’s stations (tricky) + grm (tricky)
16:05<@planetmaker>would give me incentive in trying to understand... want that for long
16:06<andythenorth>+ a C-pre-processor setup that I don’t quite understand
16:06<@planetmaker>ah, no GRM there. It's just alternative graphics
16:06<@planetmaker>alternative to the existing chips. I assume?
16:07<@planetmaker>we should nfo-i-fy stations+bridges :S
16:08<@planetmaker>I'm pretty sure I can deal with the c preprocessor stuff. Looks like my hand writing ;)
16:11<@planetmaker>hm... with a bit of fiddling it looks feasable. Well-documented
16:12<andythenorth>it’s not big either
16:12<andythenorth>small set
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16:18<@planetmaker>before you dive in big into sprite creation, give me sprites for one type so that I can learn on them
16:25<andythenorth>hang on
16:27<andythenorth>usually it’s easiest to duplicate spritesheet, and append _snow
16:27<andythenorth>then all spritesheet layouts etc are identical
16:27<andythenorth>also it’s just an overlay in photoshop layer then
16:27*andythenorth makes a test
16:29<@planetmaker>hm... it could also be the sprites just being an overlay. Just the snow. would work. I *think*
16:30<@planetmaker>though complete replacement probably is easier to code
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16:30<@planetmaker>but please don't give me snow transition sprites to code in nfo :)
16:32<andythenorth>complete replacement
16:32<andythenorth>lots of the sprites are borrowed from FIRS :P
16:32<andythenorth>and FIRS has 99% complete snow support
16:33<andythenorth>you’ll need a ground tile too
16:33<andythenorth>probably can be stolen from FIRS
16:33<andythenorth>but /me needs bed
16:33<andythenorth>I think there are 2 or 3 kinds of tiles in use mind
16:34<andythenorth>the grain tile might not use ‘standard’ templating for cargo tiles
16:34<andythenorth>because it’s fixed to a limited number of cargo types
16:38<@planetmaker>ok, I see
16:41<andythenorth>cargo piles probably don’t need snow anyway tbh
16:43<andythenorth>also sleep time
16:43<andythenorth>bye ;)
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16:54<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, out of interested, what did you do to eddi-nml that it requires a display?
17:00<frosch123>someone has an idea why a simple while loop out-performs __builtin_bcmp by factor 2? (with -O2)
17:00<frosch123>i feel i am missing some compiler option :p
17:00<frosch123>factor 3 even
17:02<@planetmaker>frosch123, could the compiler have optimized-away your loop?
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17:04<frosch123> <- it's a pretty naive strstr (but without NUL termination) implementation
17:04<frosch123>i mean i am happy the the compiler optimises the loop so nice, but i would still expect the __builtin_bcmp to be at least as good
17:05<frosch123>i mean, what's the point of it otherwise?
17:05<@planetmaker>maybe it's not compiled with --mach=native?
17:05<@planetmaker>but... yes, factor 2 or 3 is *a lot*
17:05<@planetmaker>maybe it's the actual function call that is expensive?
17:06<frosch123>i would expect it to be inlined :p
17:07<frosch123>march=native changes nothing
17:08<@planetmaker>that's default, isn't it?
17:09<@planetmaker>with --march=i386?
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17:13<frosch123>using -O3 -msse makes the loop marginally faster, the bcmp stays the same :p
17:14<@planetmaker> <-- so... that's how you tell the British PM that you invade part of the commonwealth :P But unimportant... House of Commons is waiting :P
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18:01<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: what do you mean?
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i did nothing, just pull, merge, and push
18:01<@planetmaker>I just wonder about the strang build log...
18:02<@planetmaker>But as it's custom (just like nml itself), I'll see what differences are there
18:02<@planetmaker>but cxfreeze failed due to not being able to create a window.
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it seems it runs fine, makes regression fine, and tries some wine crap that i have no idea what it does
18:03<@planetmaker>creating windoze binary
18:03<@planetmaker>which failed
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>why does that call pythonw, anyway, instead of python?
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18:03<@planetmaker>because cxfreeze? :)
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what that does.
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>but i'd use pythonw for GUI apps, and python for console apps
18:04<@planetmaker>basically create an exe from the python code
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>they have differences in stdout/stderr handling and stuff
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: anyway, it can't be anything i have ever touched.
18:08<@planetmaker>hm, k
18:08<@planetmaker>something for another day to investigate anyway :)
18:08<@planetmaker>g'night :)
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i think we had something weird happen the last time i updated eddi-nml as well :p
18:09<@planetmaker>it's always weired :P
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>but i changed only like 3 files
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>and i did not modify them in ages
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>all i ever do is pull, merge, commit, push
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>where pull and push have different adresses in the config
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---Logclosed Tue Nov 11 00:00:52 2014