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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-11-13

---Logopened Thu Nov 13 00:00:55 2014
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02:15<andythenorth>hola Pikka
02:18<V453000>omg andythesouth
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03:10<supermop>trying to fund a bulk terminal - its the north most tile, right?
03:10<andythenorth>not easy
03:11<supermop>so this is on a "south east" coast, straight about 10 tiles long
03:11<supermop>nothing out in the water to block it
03:12<andythenorth>I could only build them on SE coasts, using a very specific shape of land
03:12<supermop>what odd land shap do i need?
03:12<andythenorth>something like \————/
03:12<supermop>protruding out into the water?
03:12<andythenorth>nothing else worked
03:12<supermop>how many tiles wide is the protrusion?
03:12<andythenorth>it’s a bug that needs fixed, but eh
03:12<andythenorth>I can’t remember how many tiles, sorry :)
03:13<andythenorth>it was very annoying, I needed them to win a GS
03:13<andythenorth>I lost :P
03:13<supermop>do i click on the shore tile or the flat tile one inland?
03:13<andythenorth>shore tile
03:13<supermop>i also need this for my alcohol vally
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03:15<supermop>maybe ill just build an island out at sea and have it point back the other way
03:16<andythenorth>ok I just built one
03:16<andythenorth>— \ - - -
03:16<andythenorth>or - \ _ _ _
03:16<andythenorth>build on third tile from the notch
03:16<supermop>it got it half way along my 8 tile \____/
03:17<supermop>hmmmm maybe i build two....
03:17<supermop>certainly have enough oil to feed them
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04:21<Supercheese>Hmm, Latin is still locked on the Webtranslator... maybe manually committing an updated translation would help?
04:21<@planetmaker>Supercheese, does it mean you can't change anything?
04:21<@planetmaker>oh, ok
04:21<Supercheese>"language locked"
04:22<@planetmaker>do you know which string broke?
04:22<Supercheese>I messed up STR_CARGO_PLURAL_FRUIT and STR_CARGO_SINGULAR_FRUIT, forgot to change the genders to agree on all cases
04:22<Supercheese>they're still listed as "waiting for commit"
04:23<Supercheese>though viewing the repository source indicates they were committed
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04:23<Supercheese>should have put them all to "mp", but accidentally left a few as "m"
04:24<Supercheese>in truth, I'm not sure that every case needs genders set independently, as eints only wants the base string to have a set gender...
04:28<@planetmaker>hm before I start some wild action... I would want to ask Rubidium to check what actually is the case with the latin translation status / it being locked
04:29<Supercheese>yeah, my analysis could be incorrect
04:29<Supercheese>perhaps it had nothing to do with my blunder at all
04:29<argoneus>I don't mean to be snarky
04:29<argoneus>but do people play openttd in latin, which is literally a dead language?
04:29<argoneus>or is it more there for completeness
04:30<Supercheese>there was a feature request for it
04:31<Supercheese>but it was primarily my initiative
04:36<@planetmaker>argoneus, because we can! non solum id possumus, sed etiam utilians est
04:36<argoneus>alea iacta est
04:37<@planetmaker>aleae non iactae sunt. Aleae iacturus sunt ;)
04:39<@planetmaker>hm. *iacturae
04:40<argoneus>by the wya
04:40<argoneus>is it common for brits/americans to learn foreign languages?
04:40<argoneus>like, every foreigner ever learns english
04:41<argoneus>do most englishmen learn something too?
04:41<Supercheese>Well, a foreign language is required for secondary curricula, university as well
04:41<V453000>some americans learn english :P
04:41<V453000> /PUN
04:43<argoneus>what are some popular languages for the brits?
04:43<argoneus>french I assume?
04:45<__ln___>i think english is quite popular over there
04:46<@planetmaker>Welsh, and Gaelic, too, as far as I heard
04:46<@peter1138>No, most English people don't learn another language.
04:46<@peter1138>Most of them find English hard enough, but mostly they don't care.
04:46<__ln___>peter1138: that's sad. did you?
04:47<@peter1138>No, only French at school level, and that has left me.
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04:48<@peter1138>French was compulsory back then, but wasn't for much longer.
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04:49<@planetmaker>school level is better than nothing
04:49<@planetmaker>I find it surprising how far I can get in France with my "school level" command of that language
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04:50<@peter1138>Oui oui
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05:03<argoneus>I have school level of spanish
05:03<argoneus>but I doubt I would understand anyone in spain
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05:09<Eddi|zuHause>i had 4 years of french and 2 years of spanish. but it all disappears somewhat if you don't regularly use it
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>also, i had 8 years of english and barely could speak it
05:10<@peter1138>Je voudrais un bier, s'il vous plait
05:10<@peter1138>All the important stuff.
05:11<Eddi|zuHause>i was in paris in 2000, and i had real trouble with finding the word "merci"
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05:15<argoneus>seems like I only got kicked off freenode ;o
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>nothing useful there anyway
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05:20<Marshy>Does anyone have a good knowledge of TTRS and would know why my larger cities seem to be just full of cinemas?
05:20<Marshy>Apart from the citizens liking a good movie
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>i never played very long with TTRS, because it just floods you with passengers and is not even pretty.
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>but anyway, usually that is a sign of not enough choice for a certain town zone
05:24<V453000>works with broken DBset XL :P
05:26<Marshy>Mhhm, I just checked the readme and the first 'era' of buildings is 1920-1950
05:26<Marshy>I'm in the 1890's
05:26<Marshy>That might be why
05:26<Marshy>What do you use instead of TTRS?
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>the game tries to date back the first generation of houses so you always have at least one building available
05:27<V453000>japanese buildings are great
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>i kinda like swedish houses
05:27<V453000>TTRS in late game has a lot of same buildings, japanese buildings vary more
05:28<V453000>also japapense buildings dont do as much fuzz about the eras, they jsut work
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't flood you with skyscrapers
05:28<V453000>the new japanese v3 doesnt either
05:28<V453000>you can even have a "skyscraper restricting building"
05:28<V453000>once you demolish it, then you allow skyscrapers
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>but mostly i play with alpine (which is a variant of the default temperate houses with some snowy roofs)
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>but it's quite an outdated set, so i wouldn't recommend it
05:30<V453000>I think japanese buildings support snow too (:
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it's more complicated than that
05:31<Marshy>Cool, thanks, I've got hold of the swedish houses which I'll try out, will get hold of japanese buildings too
05:31<Marshy>Speaking of japanese, the rail set is fantastic
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05:32<Eddi|zuHause>because for some weird reason, dbset will refuse to load in arctic climate, if alpine is not loaded at the same time
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>Marshy: you get nicer results if you use swedish houses as the only house set, not mix it with other sets.
05:33<Marshy>Ok, will try it out
05:33<Marshy>Plus swedish and japanese buildings may look a little culturally odd
05:33<Marshy>mixed together
05:35<Marshy>Or not
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what that is
05:39<Marshy>Oh, where I'm from 'boulderdash' means 'bullshit', which could be in reference to japanese and swedish buildings looking odd when mixed
05:40<Marshy>But maybe I'm getting it wrong
05:42<@peter1138>Classic game, that.
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>i know that it's a game, but i don't know the game.
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05:45<@peter1138>Move through the dirt, collecting gems, avoiding boulders which fall.
05:47<@peter1138>I guess that would have to be 3D accelerated these days...
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06:12<Eddi|zuHause>that's like saying "it would have to be electric powered these days"
06:18<__ln___>is starfleet some kind of a monarchy, where officer ranks are inherited?
06:20<__ln___>or how can it be that every single admiral (except Kirk) is a totally incompetent leader and more or less insane besides that?
06:22<Sacro>Dilbert principle
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>if you think kirk is not incompetent and insane, you haven't paid a lot of attention
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: technically, it's called Peter-principle :p
06:33<__ln___>a bit insane, sure, but not an incompetent leader.
06:34<@peter1138>I'm sure he his.
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>"everybody gets promoted until he fills a position he can't handle
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06:38<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: no, peter principle is different
06:39<Sacro>Dilbert principle implies that middle management only exists for shifting crap
06:39<Pikka>senior officers have to be incompetent or insane. it's rule number one of lazy drama writing.
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure how "middle management" fits the description of an admiral
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06:59<Eddi|zuHause>there's also an issue of perceived incompetence. when you're an expert, almost everybody you deal with will have less knowledge of your subject than you do.
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07:25<Pikka>get out
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07:49<@peter1138>So does NML grok stations?
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07:52<@planetmaker>no(t yet)
07:53<@planetmaker>noone yet spent enough time to implement that there as it takes special care due to them being handled differently than houses, industries, objects and airports while basically following the same concepts from user side
07:53<@Rubidium>planetmaker / Supercheese: WT3 has a lot of trouble with cases. For some reason changing a case makes WT3 throw a tantrum or something during reading back the commit, which causes the language to be locked. The ONLY solution is forcing WT3 to trash the translation and read it in from SVN
07:54<argoneus>I wish you guys didn't use SVN :(
07:54<@planetmaker> <-- to some extent there are a few vars, though, peter1138
07:54<@Rubidium>having said that... I don't have the SSH keys with me to trigger that
07:54<argoneus>it's such a bad feature
07:54<@planetmaker>argoneus, why do *you* care? Use whatever VCS you like in order to hack OpenTTD
07:54<@Rubidium>argoneus: name me a better VCS that is: a) open source, b) free-of-charge and c) has incrementing version numbers which are the same on ALL checkouts?
07:55<argoneus>SVN has such ugly branch management
07:55<argoneus>hurr just store all the branches in different folders
07:55<@planetmaker>just svn switch and you#re done
07:55<V453000>yay software discussion
07:55<Xaroth|Work>NANO > EMACS
07:55<@planetmaker>vim > nano
07:55<argoneus>they're not comparable
07:55<argoneus>nano isn't an operating system
07:55<V453000>3DS MAX > MS PAINT
07:55<Xaroth|Work>emacs > vim
07:55<@planetmaker>gimp > paint
07:56<Xaroth|Work>rock paper scissors \o/
07:56<Xaroth|Work>or in this case, nano emacs vim
07:56<@planetmaker>next philae briefing. bbl
07:56<@Rubidium>assuming package sizes were meant, I think nano < emacs ;)
07:56<argoneus>isn't hg open source though
07:56<Xaroth|Work>like git, yes
07:57<Xaroth|Work>but neither matches c
07:57<argoneus>what do you mean by c) even
07:57<Xaroth|Work>commit 2 comes after commit 1
07:57<@peter1138>It means what it says...
07:57<Xaroth|Work>that.. pretty much
07:57<argoneus>you mean like
07:57<argoneus>if you switch a branch in hg
07:58<argoneus>you don't see other commits?
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07:58<Xaroth|Work>like, when you're on commit 1105
07:58<Xaroth|Work>you know you have a newer version than commit 1104
07:58<Xaroth|Work>svn doesn't do fancy branching like hg and git
07:59<@Rubidium>argoneus: what I mean with that, is that a) if you show me two commits I can immediately see which commit was made earlier, and b) that commit 1104 in my checkout is guaranteed the same as in planetmake's checkout (assuming no local modifications and being in the same branch)
07:59<argoneus>isn't b) what every CVS does?
08:00<@Rubidium>argoneus: no
08:00<@peter1138>No, git and hg use hashes to identify commits.
08:00<argoneus>oh, like that
08:01<@Rubidium>hg an incrementing counter for the Xth commit in that hg checkout. If planetmaker makes a local branch, and then pulls from trunk, the counters for the same commit (by hash) are different for me and planetmaker
08:03<@Rubidium>and no, CVS doesn't do that. It has a counter for each individiual file
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08:09<Xaroth|Work>argoneus: there are also commercial VCS systems
08:11<argoneus>why is there a human face on the right
08:12<V453000>you could probably imagine many human faces there
08:13<@peter1138>Question is... is it actually on its feet...
08:14<frosch123> <- argoneus: it's the astronaut who left the probe to install the flags of the esa countries
08:14<argoneus>that's not too great of a photoshop
08:15<argoneus>is this a german onion?
08:15<frosch123>something like that
08:16<@Rubidium>argoneus: the face is there because of apophenia
08:16<@Rubidium>argoneus: or the more specific variant of apophenia: pareidolia
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: no, it's the postillion
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: also, there's a human face because the human brain sees faces EVERYWHERE
08:18<argoneus>but the shape of the nose is clear
08:18<argoneus>and it also has a mouth and ear
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>you see the face?
08:19<argoneus>inb4 gif
08:20<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: lol
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>if all the tools you have is a giant face recognition software, everything you see is a face.
08:21<V453000>Pikka: STRETCHING XD
08:23<@peter1138>Good example.
08:24<V453000>kind of too visible on the balls of steel but hm
08:24<Xaroth|Work>wth @ that train
08:24<Xaroth|Work>what are those, worms?
08:24<Xaroth|Work>with construction hats on?
08:24<V453000>nuts, and those are yeti
08:25<@peter1138>(Not the abominable snowman kind)
08:25<@peter1138>Or maybe they are, but shaved...
08:26<argoneus>do the yeti move on the train
08:26<argoneus>like wiggle wiggle
08:26<@peter1138>They're a bit tall :S
08:27<V453000>no, they dont
08:27<V453000>peter1138: they have the correct YETIscale
08:27<V453000>aka 3m :)
08:28<@peter1138>Sure, I can see the cargo is the "right" height so it's all good :p
08:28<frosch123>you could have some compressor vans, yeti half half their size at 100 bar
08:29<@peter1138>Been staring at that picture, only just spotted the balls.
08:29<@peter1138>Yeah... stretched. Hmm.
08:29<V453000>I think it isnt totally horrible
08:29<argoneus>you could compress them
08:29<V453000>not perfect, but it can never be that :D
08:29<@peter1138>What happens if you don't stretch them? Are gaps really a problem?
08:30<V453000>yeah, huge gaps like pineapple
08:30<argoneus>how many yetis fit into a car
08:30<frosch123>you could stretch only the wagons, not the cargo
08:30<V453000>I absolutely hate the gaps, if the train looks like there are no gaps in / view, then there must also not be gaps in - or |
08:30<V453000>well yeah frosch
08:30<frosch123>i.e. gaps between the cargo
08:30<frosch123>or you can do it the pikka way :)
08:30<V453000>no, that is out of the question :)
08:30<frosch123>do it correct and hope that ottd gets fixed
08:30<@peter1138>Do it pikka's way, and force us to change the game ;)
08:30<V453000>resizing only cargo would be k
08:31<V453000>I can re-render eventually :P
08:31<@peter1138>Redraw every pixel! :D
08:31<V453000>for now I will keep everything stretched
08:32<frosch123>just explain it with the speed
08:32<frosch123>travellling at 200 km per second causes some stretching
08:33<@peter1138>I like that
08:33<@peter1138>Were pikka complains that \ / views are too short.
08:33<@peter1138>(Rather than - | views too long.)
08:33<argoneus>V453000: I tried drawing something
08:34<argoneus> how do I make this look like a table and not his body
08:34<V453000>apply to art school immediately
08:35<argoneus>V453000: also, I met another czech on irc, and he went to be a programmer p much after finishing high school, in prague
08:35<argoneus>guess how much he makes gross :|
08:35<V453000>idk :)
08:36<argoneus>35k, how is that possible
08:36<V453000>he is probably useful? :D
08:36<argoneus>I mean
08:36<argoneus>I knew there was a difference between prague and the rest
08:36<__ln___>35k korunas or euros or what?
08:36<argoneus>but was it THIS big?
08:36<argoneus>__ln___: it's like 1500 euros
08:37<argoneus>consider that rent costs like 350 euros
08:37<argoneus>V453000: so basically
08:37<argoneus>the country is being fucked over just so people in the capital can be fine?
08:37<argoneus>or how much is rent in your city
08:38<V453000>well fucked over, that doesnt mean prague isnt a lot more expensive in everything and that requirements to have a good job that is well paid arent higher
08:38<frosch123>argoneus: you are too young. money is never related to how much you actually do. it is mostly affected by where you live, how well your company did in the past. life is not fair, don't even try to expect that
08:38<V453000>and seriously, you think about it too much
08:38<V453000>just learn shit :D
08:39<argoneus>I want to
08:39<V453000>and what frosch said
08:39<argoneus>but I know people that became bachelors / masters and got less on their first job
08:39<argoneus>and then there's someone almost fresh out of high school
08:39<frosch123>argoneus: but guess what, having money doesn't correlate to having fun either.
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, that's a very very low wage
08:39<argoneus>not having money correlates to not having fun though
08:39<V453000>yes Eddi :) we know
08:39<argoneus>the average wage in switzerland
08:39<argoneus>is like 5 times ours
08:40<V453000>argoneus: just comparing stuff like this will not lead you anywhere
08:40<argoneus>sure you can argue "living costs"
08:40<argoneus>but they can import cars from our country etc
08:40<argoneus>and it's super cheap
08:40<V453000>there will always be "dude X" who went straight out of high school and made millions in the first few years or so
08:40<argoneus>I just thought
08:40<argoneus>that the point of capitalism was that your effort correlates to your gainings
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>that was never the point of capitalism
08:41<frosch123>nope, not at all
08:41<argoneus>not the point, but effect*
08:41<argoneus>capitalism emphasizes competition and invididualism
08:41<frosch123>your gaining correlate to what *others* think your work is worth
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>the point of capitalism was that the price for something depends on how much is offered and how much is demanded
08:41<frosch123>you can work a lot on something which noone cares about
08:41<V453000>like openttd XD
08:42<frosch123>and you can work a lot on something which people consider important, even though you don't consider it important yourself
08:42<V453000>like facebook Managers
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>and generally, the more manual labour something consumes, the less valuable it is perceived by others
08:42<lastmikoi>Eddi|zuHause: I don't believe the offer/demand concept is really inherent to capitalism, but I might be wrong.
08:42<argoneus>so basically
08:42<argoneus>if a lot of people demand something and only little people can do it properly
08:42*V453000 gets back to 3D
08:43<argoneus>then they'll get more even if they have lesser education?
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>very simplified
08:43<argoneus>only few people*
08:43<argoneus>don't want to discriminate midgets
08:43<argoneus>well, I get that
08:44<frosch123>also "demanded" is not correlated to "being good"
08:44<argoneus>if I was the only one who could knit red sweaters, and everyone wanted red sweaters
08:44<argoneus>then I'd get paid more than a top manager
08:44<argoneus>for knitting sweaters
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>there is a lot of situational stuff in there as well
08:44<V453000>I mean shit, if you do something really well and people want to pay you because the quality of your work is worth it, you get $$$
08:44<argoneus>but I don't know if it's just me
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08:44<argoneus>but don't people work as little as possible for as most as possible?
08:44<V453000>education is just to help you do something really well
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>a large part of earning a lot is applying for the right job at the right time
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>or knowing the right people
08:45<V453000>that too
08:45<argoneus>ah, right
08:45<argoneus>like two companies can offer the same position
08:45<argoneus>but one values it more
08:45<frosch123>"knowing the right people" only works in jobs which do not required "knowledge"
08:45<V453000>not true frosch123
08:45<frosch123>hmm, maybe in jobs which are really over-crowded
08:46<argoneus>frosch123: I think I'm an example of that
08:46<argoneus>I know someone at this company
08:46<argoneus>and just an employee saying "I know this guy" works
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>this is why all the self-help "gurus" out there tell you to just show up at places and talk to more people. then it's way more likely that one of those people is "the right"
08:47<frosch123>argoneus: ok, that is true. if someone you trust says that someone else is trustworthy is also worth a lot
08:47<frosch123>you cannot tell the intentions of someone in an 2 hour interview
08:48<frosch123>i thought you were refering to realtives getting a job at the same company
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>that rarely ends well :p
08:49<frosch123>there are actually a lot of "kids at age 20" in my company, who have no plan what to do, and then just at the company because their parents or sibliings work there
08:49<argoneus>im kid at age 20, thanks :(
08:49<frosch123>usually they are not particulary good, and quit after 2 years when they figure out what they want to do
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>"the bosses nephew makes this program, he uses the computer a lot"
08:50<argoneus>I'm wondering
08:50<argoneus>if it's a student / part time / internship position
08:50<argoneus>is it common to quit after 1-2 years?
08:50<argoneus>or does the company expect you to stay longer
08:50<frosch123>well, it is said: if you stay for 7 years, you likely stay forever :p
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>if you have an "internship" position for two years, they're probably screwing you over
08:51<argoneus>because right now I have a student QA position
08:51<frosch123>i'm in my 7th ottd year btw
08:51<argoneus>and this is definitely not something what I'd like to do longer
08:51<argoneus>it's pretty manual, just following steps
08:52<argoneus>X happens, do Y, report Z
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, ask them to put you in a different position of the company, or quit.
08:52<argoneus>it's a student position
08:52<argoneus>I didn't expect to be the lead engineer
08:52<frosch123>argoneus: and do you do exactly what you are asked to? or do you make suggestions for alternative ways?
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>there are "student" positions in other places at that company
08:52<argoneus>there aren't really alternative ways frosch123
08:53<frosch123>there always are
08:53<argoneus>if it says "we just translated this document, we need you to look through it if there's any misformatting or missing things"
08:53<argoneus>then what can I do
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: the more you show initiative, the more likely they will see that certain "higher" postiions may be better for you
08:53<frosch123>you could ask whether to use formatting classes and templates
08:54<frosch123>(sorry, don't know the exact english terms there)
08:54<argoneus>I'm literally given a .pdf of 300 pages
08:54<argoneus>and need to make sure there's no misformatting
08:54<argoneus>you can't really automate that
08:54<argoneus>or at least, I can't
08:54<V453000>YAY frosch123 stays with openttd forever :D
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly are you trying to tell us?
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10:15<@planetmaker><frosch123> i'm in my 7th ottd year btw <-- hm, depending on how I count, I can say the same :D
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>i'm probably here a bit longer than that
10:17<@planetmaker>actually... quite exactly as it seems. I registered to tt-f on November 8th 7 years ago
10:17<@planetmaker>and I did in order to report / ask about issues with OpenTTD compilation
10:18<b_jonas>openttd has come a long way since that
10:18<frosch123>well, you do not usually just register for reading
10:18<@planetmaker>yes, that's true
10:18<frosch123>not sure when i started reading tt-f, but likely in 2005 or so
10:19<@planetmaker>I later mis-used my first posting to "host" signature files :P
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>my first mention in the commit log is from july 2006
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>i've probably been in this channel regularly since christmas 2005
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>my first code contribution to the MiniIN was in november 2006
10:22<@planetmaker>dunno, my first entry as participant in a coop game is December 2007. But I played on some servers earlier, notably Brianetta's one
10:22<@planetmaker>but might not be before 2007...
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>so yesterday was the 8th anniversary(-ish)
10:23*argoneus pops a popper
10:23<@planetmaker>though maybe... I had an OpenTTD 0.4.5, iirc. which is dated 2006. But I only came back to it really with 0.5.3
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>i had a 0.4.0
10:23<@planetmaker>I *think*
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>which is really unlikely, because that was only available for a week
10:23<argoneus>in 2005 I was playing jedi academy
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>i then had a nightly in the r3000 range
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>with the completely broken PBS
10:24<frosch123>hehe, when i got ottd 0.4, it had such a feature parity with ttdp 2.0, that i thought it were the same devs doing it, just switching to a more maintainable language :)
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>and i believe my first question in here was about elrails (or lack thereof)
10:25<@planetmaker>hehe, nice frosch123 :)
10:25<frosch123>i think i read the ottd forums for 2 years, before discovernig that the ttdp section was not just archive
10:26<argoneus>what language is ttdp?
10:26<frosch123>most likely my thinking was along those guys who said "why don't they just join forces" :p
10:26<frosch123>argoneus: masm
10:26<argoneus>oh, masochism
10:27<frosch123>with some magic around it
10:27<argoneus>microsoft products always come with magic :<
10:28<frosch123>i can read asm, and also wrote various system-near things with it
10:28<frosch123>but i always assumed that people who can write asm also can write c
10:28<frosch123>or some other higher language
10:28<argoneus>C can be parsed to asm almost 1:1
10:28<argoneus>most of the operators are directly asm operators
10:28<argoneus>+= etc
10:29<frosch123>that's not what i mean
10:29<frosch123>c programmers and asm programmers think differently, which results in very different code
10:29<argoneus>differently in what way?
10:29<frosch123>today i can look at grfcodec and see that it is written by an asm guy
10:30<frosch123>using two-complement overflows to save or-ing a mask and such
10:31<frosch123>"((-overlap_len) << 3) & 0xFF | (p >> 8)" <- this is an asm line
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10:31<frosch123>"0x80 | (16 - overlap_len) << 3 | overlap_pos >> 8;" <- this is the equivalent c line
10:31<frosch123>(both are python actually in this case, but the thinking is different)
10:32<argoneus>I don't really understand what this should do in the context
10:33<argoneus>all I see is bit shifts and logical operations
10:33<frosch123>it's just the difference of doing "(uint8)(-foo << 3)" vs. "0x80 | (16-foo) << 3"
10:34<frosch123>the asm guy used "-" and a "(uint8)" cast to set the highest bit
10:34<frosch123>the c programmer does it the "natural" way
10:34<@planetmaker>George, re : there likely are other cases. de-facto you must make sure to not use any variable which is not cached in order to change any vehicle property
10:35<George>and what is the list of notcached variables?
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10:38<@planetmaker>generally a time or position dependence is a bad idea
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10:43<@planetmaker>unrelated, some people might find this interesting (received as feedback via e-mail):
10:45<frosch123>another ottd based scientific paper?
10:45<frosch123>i always wonder whether that also happens to other foss games
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>like tuxracer or what?
10:49<frosch123>wesnoth, widelands, that category
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10:49<Eddi|zuHause>about the "race condition" he probably didn't find the "ignore signal" button
10:51<frosch123>hmm, i think that paper relies on block signals. pbs cannot be used to explain traditional mutexes
10:52<@planetmaker>he writes explicitly block signals, yes
10:52<frosch123>see, there is a use for block signals :)
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10:52<argoneus>someone call the V453000
10:52<V453000>frosch123: too many words, correct sentence is "pbs cannot be used"
10:53<@peter1138>Iyeah, we don't have pbs
10:53<@peter1138>path signals are much better :)
10:54<@planetmaker>" In fact, several of them continued
10:54<@planetmaker>playing with the train scenario well after completing the checkpoints on which they were
10:54<@planetmaker>graded. The exercise worked well as an introduction to threads and synchronization (...)" :)
10:55<@peter1138>"The exercise worked well as in introduction to playing games instead of learning"
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>i most certainly have PBS. in my (functional) MiniIN checkout
10:55<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: does it compile?
10:55<frosch123>or do you just claim it does
10:55<George>planetmaker: time dependence - does it include date of last service and build year?
10:55<@peter1138>Is that Hackykid's implementation?
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>a few months ago, at least
10:55<@planetmaker>those are cached, afaik, George
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the problematic parts are inbetween, in the r10000 range
10:56<frosch123>so, do you run an really old os, or did you do all those libpng and gcc 4.6 adjustments
10:56<@planetmaker>George, they are not exactly time-variable
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>after the c++ move
10:56<@peter1138>George, they are fine to use
10:56<@peter1138>I think.
10:56<@peter1138>Build year definitely never changes :p
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, gtg
10:57<@planetmaker>I think they're not only cached but actually saved. which is the actual better definition of "does not desync"
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it throws a boatload of warnings
10:58<@peter1138>Yeah, servicing triggers a... erm... trigger, so the cache is refreshed.
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11:03<ginko>Can I transport goods via a complex route, let's say via bus to an airport, from there to an airport, and then via train to a city?
11:03<ginko>*..., from there to a different airport, ...
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11:06<@Rubidium>Supercheese / planetmaker: better now? ;)
11:06<ginko>(and if so, how, and if not, how to work around this)
11:06<frosch123>planetmaker: nice paper actually. way better than the usual ones :)
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12:07<George>What is the date of last service for newly built engine/wagon?
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12:09<frosch123>it should be the build date
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12:19<@planetmaker>distances... :D
12:25<@planetmaker>the previous one there is also quite good
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12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27061 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt latvian.txt) (2014-11-13 17:45:38 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>czech - 1 changes by marek995
12:45<@DorpsGek>latvian - 1 changes by Parastais
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13:10<Quatroking>simon and garfunkel is great openttd music
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13:17<Eddi|zuHause>i like garfunkel and oates
13:17<__ln___>spanish word of the day: Baja Sajonia
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>lower saxony?
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>wouldn't that be sajonia baja?
13:20<__ln___>apparently not. and the order isn't always noun + adjective in spanish in general.
13:25<@peter1138>Well, it's just a name.
13:26<@peter1138>The whole thing is the noun, it is a noun with an adjective.
13:26<@peter1138>Like East Suffolk is separate from Suffolk, rather than being the Eastern part of it.
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13:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, sure. lower saxony is not a part of saxony, either
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>nor is there an "upper" saxony :p
13:44<frosch123>they do not even share a border
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the reading/writing problem might be explained with platforms
13:45<frosch123>write a follow-up paper :)
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14:00<Quatroking>i love building stations like these
14:00<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, that's pretty much what I said :p
14:00<andythenorth>I love trains
14:00<@peter1138>I like turtles
14:01<andythenorth>I am the guy in that video
14:01<andythenorth>even looks like me
14:01<andythenorth>even sounds like me
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>i just wanted to say "i like trains"
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>i never really have the space to do such stations
14:02<@peter1138>I never have the patience.
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>i have to fill every small niche
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>non-track tiles rarely fit anywhere
14:04<andythenorth>use a bigger map
14:04<andythenorth>8192x8192 should do it
14:04<andythenorth>where is my 8*8192 map option? :(
14:05<frosch123>do firs industries even fit on there :p
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14:06<andythenorth>I recode FIRS
14:06<andythenorth>all industries, single tile
14:06<Quatroking>I have my settings set to keep 3 tiles free around industries
14:08<frosch123>andythenorth: i want a 1x8k map then
14:08<frosch123>depot on one end
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the last map i played was 128x256 or so
14:08<frosch123>then a row of stations, and tunnel under each industry
14:09<frosch123>with the right tunnel/bridge combo you may even make it bidirectional
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: need at least 3 tiles on a side to have one tile be buildable
14:09<frosch123>well, i mean one buildable tile ofc
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>the next higher power of two then is 4
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>so you have 2 tiles to build on
14:10<frosch123>you can always add more void tiles
14:10<frosch123>we discussed non-square non-power-of-2 maps before :)
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>but the current map generator won't produce those :p
14:11<frosch123>it won't produce a 4x8k map either
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>also, you get NewGRF trouble
14:11<frosch123>isn't that the normal case?
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>because map size is exposed in a crazy format
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>as it happens when assembler-programmers focus on bitstuffing and ressource efficiency
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>dear cat, have you seen the mouse?
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14:21<andythenorth>first where is cat?
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>within arm's reach
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>so, almost all the warnings in MiniIN are of the form
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>smallmap_gui.c:698:2: warning: dereferencing type-punned pointer will break strict-aliasing rules [-Wstrict-aliasing]
14:22<Eddi|zuHause> tile_x = WP(w,smallmap_d).scroll_x / TILE_SIZE;
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>and a handful of unused variable ones...
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>but my terminal buffer isn't big enough to show them all
14:27<@peter1138>Ah, the old WP macro...
14:27<@peter1138>So glad we got rid of that :)
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14:39<Supercheese>Huzzah, webtranslator fixed
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15:32<ginko>What is your personal preference? Inflation on or off?
15:33<Zuu>Though, I prefere my air mattress inflated
15:34<ginko>Is it much easier with it off? Feels a little bit like cheating
15:34<andythenorth>inflation is borked
15:34<andythenorth>it’s not cheating
15:34<andythenorth>inflation is stupid
15:35<ginko>borked how?
15:35<andythenorth>costs inflate faster than income iirc
15:35<andythenorth>something dumb anyway
15:35<b_jonas>I like inflation, but it has some unforgunate side effects:
15:35<b_jonas>like, if you start a game in 2030, you can't borrow enough to build a rail line
15:36<ginko>Ah k
15:36<b_jonas>even though the borrow amount is supposed to grow with inflation
15:36<ginko>Is it normal to make the biggest amount of money with planes (by a big margin)?
15:36<b_jonas>but then, it doesn't matter much
15:36<b_jonas>ginko: in the mid-game, yes, but in late game big passenger trains make much more than planes
15:36<ginko>(well, it might change, I am in 1967 having started from 1950, but I don't think it will)
15:36<ginko>K, thanks :)
15:37<b_jonas>in 1967 it might be possible
15:37<b_jonas>you haven't had time to grow the towns yet
15:37<b_jonas>when you grow them, they supply lots of passengers,
15:37<b_jonas>and yuo get fast trains later
15:37<b_jonas>and strong trains
15:37<b_jonas>that adds up
15:37<b_jonas>planes improve a bit, but not as much as trains
15:38<ginko>Biggest town is 8k currently ;)
15:38<ginko>2nd biggest only 5k
15:39<b_jonas>ginko: the trains matter too. they really get better later
15:39<andythenorth>Zuu: could you store local pricing per town per cargo?
15:39<andythenorth>I won’t suggest per-tile :P
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15:40<ginko>b_jonas I use them quite a lot, but it is a big map and so I have started flying a lot of goods and passengers around. Every major city now has an airport
15:41<ginko>b_jonas and at this point I only use them for goods or things like coal or steel, not for passengers
15:41<ginko>I have a lot of water, but ships are soooooo slow
15:41<Zuu>andythenorth: differentiated payment per cargo and town is doable.
15:42<andythenorth>demand economy
15:42<Zuu>Industry level is a bit more work and will not work for cargo accepted by town houses.
15:42<andythenorth>deliver more, price goes down
15:42<andythenorth>above some demand threshold
15:42<andythenorth>like Railroad Tycoon 3
15:42<andythenorth>I don’t think it will make great gameplay in TTD
15:42<andythenorth>but might be a nice toy project
15:43<Zuu>I regard CashDrainGS mostly as a toy already.
15:43<andythenorth>so in RT3, industries and houses create demand
15:43<andythenorth>as cargo is delivered, price drops
15:43<andythenorth>there is a floor
15:43<andythenorth>in other areas of demand, unmet demand increases the price gradient
15:44<Zuu>That would be very easy to implement if that is done on mothly basis.
15:44<andythenorth>monthly would be fine
15:44<Zuu>Now payment is [monthly delivery] * [payment factor]
15:44<andythenorth>RT3 has a neat red-yellow-green heatmap for demand, GS can’t do that :)
15:44<ginko>Is there a place in which I can download savegames by more advanced players (to have a look, play and learn?!)
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15:45<Zuu>You could do [monthly delivery] ^ (0.5) * [payment factor]
15:45<andythenorth>in RT3, it also takes into account terrain
15:45<Zuu>Or just square root everything.
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15:45<andythenorth>so tiles separated by mountains have high demand relative to other side of mountain
15:45<Zuu>Or whatever way you like to shape it.
15:46<andythenorth>probably a good toy
15:46<andythenorth>could really use some list of localised prices though :D
15:47<Zuu>Sounds interesting. I wrote somewhere that it could look at the distance to closest x supplies and if they are far, increase payment.
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15:48<Zuu>The good thing about using town level is that GS can put some info in the town window. As the feedback on what you get paid gets a bit broken with this GS.
15:48<andythenorth>yeah :)
15:49<andythenorth>needs a price layer on minimap :P
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15:50<Zuu>Or remove all trees on the map, disable tree growth and then place more trees where towns pay more. Though I think just removing all trees will need an insane amount of DoCommands, and I am afraid trees are made before the script starts up and have a say on the (advanced) settings.
15:51<ginko>I don't want to annoy people online, so I have to ask in advance: Can I join a server to just briefly have a look and be a silent watchful eye upon the game played instead of participating myself?
15:52<Zuu>What may happen is that the game will pause briefly when you join. So joinging servers just to quit quickly is not always welcome though.
15:52<andythenorth>treetype per cargo? o_O
15:52<andythenorth>do we have enough trees :P
15:52<andythenorth>can be hidden :P
15:53<Zuu>It can use signs, but those are not visible on the minimap.
15:53<andythenorth>GS-defined minimap layer
15:53<Zuu>It even can make $ signs of the company colour on towns that get income :-)
15:54<Zuu>But those will not raise and then disappear :-)
15:54<andythenorth>I guess demand economy does nothing for those who are bothered by distance
15:54<andythenorth>but eh
15:55<ginko>Zuu Thank you :) Works perfectly fine, very interesting... those rails are insane.. (have to read up on signals,... shame be upon me :D)
15:59<Zuu>ginko: When you learn to build networks, the game often become more fun.
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16:00<ginko>Zuu I kind of have the urge to delete my map and start from scratch... have already done so multiple times the last few days
16:00<ginko>But I have money on the map, so I can play around with trains and signals until I get the hang of it (or "some hang" ;))
16:00<Zuu>I suggest starting with path signals and ignore the block type signals for now. The path signal work for most things.
16:01<Zuu>A rule of thumb for them is to put them where it is safe for a train to wait.
16:01<Zuu>If you don't want a train waiting somewhere, don't put a signal there.
16:02<Zuu>For example you don't want trains waiting ontop of the cross-intersection before a station. So put the signal before the intersection, but not between it and the station.
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16:06<andythenorth>you can always cheat money
16:06<andythenorth>for learning stuff
16:10<ginko>gn8 all, ty for your help and advise :)
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16:12<Marshy>Evening! o/
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>my attempt at an economy simulation would be: each town (and its attached industries) have two values: demanded amount and paid price. every month, if delivered amount is lower than demanded amount, demanded amount decreases, and paid price increases, if higher, the other way around. there is a general growth of demand values also over time (or with town size)
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16:20<Eddi|zuHause>so if you ignored a town for a while and then connect it, you get very high prices for a short time, then it normalizes around the amount you actually deliver
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>paid prices would not depend on distance (but still could get penalties for late delivery and stuff)
16:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yes, that’s a better explanation of what I mean by demand economy
16:25<andythenorth>maybe I should get a new game
16:25<andythenorth>and maybe it shouldn’t be 2048 :P
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>i've played through 2048. i've no desire to play it anymore.
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16:42*andythenorth plays some stupid bubble game
16:46*andythenorth has bad german :P
16:48<andythenorth>maybe I just play Silicon Valley
16:48<andythenorth>again :)
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>roughly: "hey mom, how was it when you went to the internet as a kid?" - "there was no internet when i was a kid" - "oh right, because of the war..."
16:49<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: wait, what war?
16:49<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: not because of the dinos ?
16:49<b_jonas>did you live in a place that had a war?
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i loved the dinos... "not the mommy! *bang*"
16:50<frosch123>i like the top comment more :)
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16:51<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i like the second top comment even better :p
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16:52<NGC3982>The damn thing works.
16:52<NGC3982>It's alive.
16:52<NGC3982>It's alive"!"¤!"!
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>but it supposedly lies on the side, with not getting enough sunlight
16:53<NGC3982>I finally solved the Supybot server-to-IRC issue.
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17:01<Quatroking>jesus christ, does moving my HQ cost 10% of my company's worth?
17:02<Taede>so what was the solution?
17:03<frosch123>nothing is more resistant to moving than office workers
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: do you still need the joke explained?
17:04<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: no, I know there wasn't internet back then, I was just wondering if you were serious about the war
17:04<b_jonas>or if it's just for the joke
17:04<b_jonas>I'm not as young as that kid, I know what it was like before the internet
17:04<NGC3982>Taede: Thanks for the patience and the fact that i feel like i have never used Linux before.
17:04<frosch123>b_jonas: as the comments explain. it's about the french-german war from 1960
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: part of the joke is that the kid has no relation between when the war happened and when his mother was a kid, so everything "in the past" sorta blends into each other.
17:06<b_jonas>oh come on, a kid might not understand about the internet or dinosaurs, I get that, but they can't seriously think there was a war if there wasn't, right?
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>like my brother had this idea that in the past, the world was black and white, because he had only ever seen black and white photos
17:06<b_jonas>it's possible that there was a war where he lived
17:06<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, I know
17:07<b_jonas>that's reasonable
17:07<b_jonas>but a war?
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>well there was a war
17:07<frosch123>there has always been wars in europe
17:07<b_jonas>yes, there was. and only a hundred kilometers or two to the south
17:07<b_jonas>I know
17:07<frosch123>the past years are just an error in the measurement
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: this is obviously from a german perspective
17:08<b_jonas>oh, then a few more kilometers
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: "the war" then most likely referring to WWII
17:09<NGC3982>Don't mention ze war.
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>the thing that runs up and down every documentary channel there is...
17:09<b_jonas>if she's asking the grandparents, sure
17:09<b_jonas>yeah, young people now don't remember the more recent war
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's not about remembering
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>it's about piecing together information that you pass by on the internet (or the "real" world)
17:10<b_jonas>oh... they learn from the internet
17:10<b_jonas>not from their parents and teachers and tv now
17:10<b_jonas>that might explain it
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17:11<Eddi|zuHause>well. like when i was first told the story about "the little trumpet boy", i had a totally different image of it in my head than what actually happened
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18:00<supermop>smoke looks better in squid that i remember
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18:08<frosch123>it was improved some months ago
18:08<frosch123>(if you are playing nightly)
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---Logclosed Fri Nov 14 00:00:56 2014