| --- | Log | opened Thu Nov 13 00:00:55 2014 |
| 00:01 | <Supercheese> | Evening |
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| 02:15 | <andythenorth> | boink |
| 02:15 | <andythenorth> | hola Pikka |
| 02:18 | <V453000> | omg andythesouth |
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| 03:04 | <Supercheese> | andythewest |
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| 03:10 | <supermop> | trying to fund a bulk terminal - its the north most tile, right? |
| 03:10 | <andythenorth> | yup |
| 03:10 | <andythenorth> | not easy |
| 03:11 | <supermop> | so this is on a "south east" coast, straight about 10 tiles long |
| 03:11 | <andythenorth> | supermop: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7064 |
| 03:11 | <supermop> | nothing out in the water to block it |
| 03:12 | <andythenorth> | I could only build them on SE coasts, using a very specific shape of land |
| 03:12 | <supermop> | what odd land shap do i need? |
| 03:12 | <andythenorth> | something like \————/ |
| 03:12 | <andythenorth> | ——\__________/-------- |
| 03:12 | <supermop> | protruding out into the water? |
| 03:12 | <andythenorth> | yup |
| 03:12 | <andythenorth> | nothing else worked |
| 03:12 | <supermop> | how many tiles wide is the protrusion? |
| 03:12 | <andythenorth> | it’s a bug that needs fixed, but eh |
| 03:12 | <andythenorth> | I can’t remember how many tiles, sorry :) |
| 03:13 | <andythenorth> | it was very annoying, I needed them to win a GS |
| 03:13 | <andythenorth> | I lost :P |
| 03:13 | <supermop> | do i click on the shore tile or the flat tile one inland? |
| 03:13 | <andythenorth> | shore tile |
| 03:13 | <supermop> | i also need this for my alcohol vally |
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| 03:15 | <supermop> | maybe ill just build an island out at sea and have it point back the other way |
| 03:16 | <andythenorth> | ok I just built one |
| 03:16 | <andythenorth> | — \ - - - |
| 03:16 | <supermop> | same |
| 03:16 | <andythenorth> | or - \ _ _ _ |
| 03:16 | <andythenorth> | build on third tile from the notch |
| 03:16 | <supermop> | it got it half way along my 8 tile \____/ |
| 03:16 | <andythenorth> | yup |
| 03:16 | <supermop> | yeah |
| 03:17 | <supermop> | hmmmm maybe i build two.... |
| 03:17 | <supermop> | certainly have enough oil to feed them |
| 03:19 | <__ln___> | what http://www.hanselman.com/blog/AnnouncingNET2015NETAsOpenSourceNETOnMacAndLinuxAndVisualStudioCommunity.aspx |
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| 04:13 | <argoneus> | ayy |
| 04:14 | <__ln___> | http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/opensource/projects/mutil/ |
| 04:21 | <Supercheese> | Hmm, Latin is still locked on the Webtranslator... maybe manually committing an updated translation would help? |
| 04:21 | <@planetmaker> | Supercheese, does it mean you can't change anything? |
| 04:21 | <Supercheese> | yes |
| 04:21 | <Supercheese> | http://translator.openttd.org/en/status |
| 04:21 | <@planetmaker> | oh, ok |
| 04:21 | <Supercheese> | "language locked" |
| 04:22 | <@planetmaker> | do you know which string broke? |
| 04:22 | <Supercheese> | I messed up STR_CARGO_PLURAL_FRUIT and STR_CARGO_SINGULAR_FRUIT, forgot to change the genders to agree on all cases |
| 04:22 | <Supercheese> | they're still listed as "waiting for commit" |
| 04:23 | <Supercheese> | though viewing the repository source indicates they were committed |
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| 04:23 | <Supercheese> | should have put them all to "mp", but accidentally left a few as "m" |
| 04:24 | <Supercheese> | in truth, I'm not sure that every case needs genders set independently, as eints only wants the base string to have a set gender... |
| 04:28 | <@planetmaker> | hm before I start some wild action... I would want to ask Rubidium to check what actually is the case with the latin translation status / it being locked |
| 04:29 | <Supercheese> | yeah, my analysis could be incorrect |
| 04:29 | <Supercheese> | perhaps it had nothing to do with my blunder at all |
| 04:29 | <argoneus> | I don't mean to be snarky |
| 04:29 | <argoneus> | but do people play openttd in latin, which is literally a dead language? |
| 04:29 | <argoneus> | or is it more there for completeness |
| 04:30 | <Supercheese> | there was a feature request for it |
| 04:31 | <Supercheese> | but it was primarily my initiative |
| 04:33 | <argoneus> | ah |
| 04:36 | <@planetmaker> | argoneus, because we can! non solum id possumus, sed etiam utilians est |
| 04:36 | <argoneus> | alea iacta est |
| 04:36 | <V453000> | anus |
| 04:37 | <@planetmaker> | aleae non iactae sunt. Aleae iacturus sunt ;) |
| 04:39 | <@planetmaker> | hm. *iacturae |
| 04:40 | <argoneus> | by the wya |
| 04:40 | <argoneus> | is it common for brits/americans to learn foreign languages? |
| 04:40 | <argoneus> | like, every foreigner ever learns english |
| 04:41 | <argoneus> | do most englishmen learn something too? |
| 04:41 | <Supercheese> | Well, a foreign language is required for secondary curricula, university as well |
| 04:41 | <V453000> | some americans learn english :P |
| 04:41 | <V453000> | /PUN |
| 04:41 | <Supercheese> | haha |
| 04:43 | <argoneus> | what are some popular languages for the brits? |
| 04:43 | <argoneus> | french I assume? |
| 04:45 | <__ln___> | i think english is quite popular over there |
| 04:45 | <V453000> | XD |
| 04:46 | <@planetmaker> | Welsh, and Gaelic, too, as far as I heard |
| 04:46 | <@peter1138> | No, most English people don't learn another language. |
| 04:46 | <@peter1138> | Most of them find English hard enough, but mostly they don't care. |
| 04:46 | <__ln___> | peter1138: that's sad. did you? |
| 04:47 | <@peter1138> | No, only French at school level, and that has left me. |
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| 04:48 | <@peter1138> | French was compulsory back then, but wasn't for much longer. |
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| 04:49 | <@planetmaker> | school level is better than nothing |
| 04:49 | <@planetmaker> | I find it surprising how far I can get in France with my "school level" command of that language |
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| 04:50 | <@peter1138> | Oui oui |
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| 05:03 | <argoneus> | I have school level of spanish |
| 05:03 | <argoneus> | but I doubt I would understand anyone in spain |
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| 05:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i had 4 years of french and 2 years of spanish. but it all disappears somewhat if you don't regularly use it |
| 05:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, i had 8 years of english and barely could speak it |
| 05:10 | <@peter1138> | Je voudrais un bier, s'il vous plait |
| 05:10 | <@peter1138> | All the important stuff. |
| 05:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i was in paris in 2000, and i had real trouble with finding the word "merci" |
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| 05:14 | <argoneus> | test |
| 05:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | failed |
| 05:15 | <argoneus> | seems like I only got kicked off freenode ;o |
| 05:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | nothing useful there anyway |
| 05:17 | <argoneus> | rude |
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| 05:20 | <Marshy> | Does anyone have a good knowledge of TTRS and would know why my larger cities seem to be just full of cinemas? |
| 05:20 | <Marshy> | Apart from the citizens liking a good movie |
| 05:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i never played very long with TTRS, because it just floods you with passengers and is not even pretty. |
| 05:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but anyway, usually that is a sign of not enough choice for a certain town zone |
| 05:24 | <V453000> | works with broken DBset XL :P |
| 05:26 | <Marshy> | Mhhm, I just checked the readme and the first 'era' of buildings is 1920-1950 |
| 05:26 | <Marshy> | I'm in the 1890's |
| 05:26 | <Marshy> | That might be why |
| 05:26 | <Marshy> | What do you use instead of TTRS? |
| 05:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the game tries to date back the first generation of houses so you always have at least one building available |
| 05:27 | <V453000> | japanese buildings are great |
| 05:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i kinda like swedish houses |
| 05:27 | <V453000> | TTRS in late game has a lot of same buildings, japanese buildings vary more |
| 05:28 | <V453000> | also japapense buildings dont do as much fuzz about the eras, they jsut work |
| 05:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it doesn't flood you with skyscrapers |
| 05:28 | <V453000> | the new japanese v3 doesnt either |
| 05:28 | <V453000> | you can even have a "skyscraper restricting building" |
| 05:28 | <V453000> | once you demolish it, then you allow skyscrapers |
| 05:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but mostly i play with alpine (which is a variant of the default temperate houses with some snowy roofs) |
| 05:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but it's quite an outdated set, so i wouldn't recommend it |
| 05:30 | <V453000> | I think japanese buildings support snow too (: |
| 05:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, but it's more complicated than that |
| 05:31 | <Marshy> | Cool, thanks, I've got hold of the swedish houses which I'll try out, will get hold of japanese buildings too |
| 05:31 | <Marshy> | Speaking of japanese, the rail set is fantastic |
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| 05:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | because for some weird reason, dbset will refuse to load in arctic climate, if alpine is not loaded at the same time |
| 05:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Marshy: you get nicer results if you use swedish houses as the only house set, not mix it with other sets. |
| 05:33 | <Marshy> | Ok, will try it out |
| 05:33 | <Marshy> | Plus swedish and japanese buildings may look a little culturally odd |
| 05:33 | <Marshy> | mixed together |
| 05:35 | <NGC3982> | Boulderdash! |
| 05:35 | <Marshy> | Or not |
| 05:35 | <Marshy> | :) |
| 05:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | not sure what that is |
| 05:39 | <Marshy> | Oh, where I'm from 'boulderdash' means 'bullshit', which could be in reference to japanese and swedish buildings looking odd when mixed |
| 05:40 | <Marshy> | But maybe I'm getting it wrong |
| 05:42 | <@peter1138> | Classic game, that. |
| 05:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i know that it's a game, but i don't know the game. |
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| 05:45 | <@peter1138> | Move through the dirt, collecting gems, avoiding boulders which fall. |
| 05:47 | <@peter1138> | I guess that would have to be 3D accelerated these days... |
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| 06:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's like saying "it would have to be electric powered these days" |
| 06:18 | <__ln___> | is starfleet some kind of a monarchy, where officer ranks are inherited? |
| 06:20 | <__ln___> | or how can it be that every single admiral (except Kirk) is a totally incompetent leader and more or less insane besides that? |
| 06:22 | <Sacro> | Dilbert principle |
| 06:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you think kirk is not incompetent and insane, you haven't paid a lot of attention |
| 06:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Sacro: technically, it's called Peter-principle :p |
| 06:33 | <__ln___> | a bit insane, sure, but not an incompetent leader. |
| 06:34 | <@peter1138> | I'm sure he his. |
| 06:34 | <@peter1138> | -h |
| 06:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "everybody gets promoted until he fills a position he can't handle |
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| 06:38 | <Sacro> | Eddi|zuHause: no, peter principle is different |
| 06:39 | <Sacro> | Dilbert principle implies that middle management only exists for shifting crap |
| 06:39 | <Pikka> | senior officers have to be incompetent or insane. it's rule number one of lazy drama writing. |
| 06:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm not sure how "middle management" fits the description of an admiral |
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| 06:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there's also an issue of perceived incompetence. when you're an expert, almost everybody you deal with will have less knowledge of your subject than you do. |
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| 07:25 | <argoneus> | ayy |
| 07:25 | <Pikka> | get out |
| 07:25 | <argoneus> | bayy |
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| 07:49 | <@peter1138> | So does NML grok stations? |
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| 07:52 | <@planetmaker> | no(t yet) |
| 07:53 | <@planetmaker> | noone yet spent enough time to implement that there as it takes special care due to them being handled differently than houses, industries, objects and airports while basically following the same concepts from user side |
| 07:53 | <@Rubidium> | planetmaker / Supercheese: WT3 has a lot of trouble with cases. For some reason changing a case makes WT3 throw a tantrum or something during reading back the commit, which causes the language to be locked. The ONLY solution is forcing WT3 to trash the translation and read it in from SVN |
| 07:54 | <argoneus> | I wish you guys didn't use SVN :( |
| 07:54 | <@planetmaker> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Stations <-- to some extent there are a few vars, though, peter1138 |
| 07:54 | <@Rubidium> | having said that... I don't have the SSH keys with me to trigger that |
| 07:54 | <argoneus> | it's such a bad feature |
| 07:54 | <@planetmaker> | argoneus, why do *you* care? Use whatever VCS you like in order to hack OpenTTD |
| 07:54 | <@Rubidium> | argoneus: name me a better VCS that is: a) open source, b) free-of-charge and c) has incrementing version numbers which are the same on ALL checkouts? |
| 07:55 | <argoneus> | SVN has such ugly branch management |
| 07:55 | <argoneus> | hurr just store all the branches in different folders |
| 07:55 | <@planetmaker> | just svn switch and you#re done |
| 07:55 | <V453000> | yay software discussion |
| 07:55 | <Xaroth|Work> | NANO > EMACS |
| 07:55 | <@planetmaker> | vim > nano |
| 07:55 | <argoneus> | they're not comparable |
| 07:55 | <argoneus> | nano isn't an operating system |
| 07:55 | <V453000> | 3DS MAX > MS PAINT |
| 07:55 | <Xaroth|Work> | emacs > vim |
| 07:55 | <@planetmaker> | gimp > paint |
| 07:56 | <Xaroth|Work> | rock paper scissors \o/ |
| 07:56 | <Xaroth|Work> | or in this case, nano emacs vim |
| 07:56 | <@planetmaker> | next philae briefing. bbl |
| 07:56 | <@Rubidium> | assuming package sizes were meant, I think nano < emacs ;) |
| 07:56 | <argoneus> | isn't hg open source though |
| 07:56 | <Xaroth|Work> | like git, yes |
| 07:57 | <Xaroth|Work> | but neither matches c |
| 07:57 | <argoneus> | what do you mean by c) even |
| 07:57 | <Xaroth|Work> | commit 2 comes after commit 1 |
| 07:57 | <@peter1138> | It means what it says... |
| 07:57 | <Xaroth|Work> | that.. pretty much |
| 07:57 | <argoneus> | oh |
| 07:57 | <argoneus> | you mean like |
| 07:57 | <argoneus> | if you switch a branch in hg |
| 07:58 | <V453000> | XD |
| 07:58 | <argoneus> | you don't see other commits? |
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| 07:58 | <Xaroth|Work> | no |
| 07:58 | <Xaroth|Work> | like, when you're on commit 1105 |
| 07:58 | <Xaroth|Work> | you know you have a newer version than commit 1104 |
| 07:58 | <Xaroth|Work> | svn doesn't do fancy branching like hg and git |
| 07:59 | <@Rubidium> | argoneus: what I mean with that, is that a) if you show me two commits I can immediately see which commit was made earlier, and b) that commit 1104 in my checkout is guaranteed the same as in planetmake's checkout (assuming no local modifications and being in the same branch) |
| 07:59 | <argoneus> | isn't b) what every CVS does? |
| 08:00 | <@Rubidium> | argoneus: no |
| 08:00 | <argoneus> | er |
| 08:00 | <argoneus> | VCS |
| 08:00 | <@peter1138> | No, git and hg use hashes to identify commits. |
| 08:00 | <argoneus> | oh, like that |
| 08:01 | <@Rubidium> | hg an incrementing counter for the Xth commit in that hg checkout. If planetmaker makes a local branch, and then pulls from trunk, the counters for the same commit (by hash) are different for me and planetmaker |
| 08:01 | <argoneus> | shrug |
| 08:03 | <@Rubidium> | and no, CVS doesn't do that. It has a counter for each individiual file |
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| 08:09 | <Xaroth|Work> | argoneus: there are also commercial VCS systems |
| 08:11 | <argoneus> | http://www.esa.int/var/esa/storage/images/esa_multimedia/images/2014/11/welcome_to_a_comet/15048351-1-eng-GB/Welcome_to_a_comet.jpg |
| 08:11 | <argoneus> | why is there a human face on the right |
| 08:12 | <V453000> | you could probably imagine many human faces there |
| 08:13 | <@peter1138> | Question is... is it actually on its feet... |
| 08:14 | <frosch123> | http://www.der-postillon.com/2014/11/esa-astronaut-verlasst-rosetta.html <- argoneus: it's the astronaut who left the probe to install the flags of the esa countries |
| 08:14 | <argoneus> | that's not too great of a photoshop |
| 08:15 | <argoneus> | is this a german onion? |
| 08:15 | <frosch123> | something like that |
| 08:16 | <@Rubidium> | argoneus: the face is there because of apophenia |
| 08:16 | <@Rubidium> | argoneus: or the more specific variant of apophenia: pareidolia |
| 08:17 | <argoneus> | heh |
| 08:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: no, it's the postillion |
| 08:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: also, there's a human face because the human brain sees faces EVERYWHERE |
| 08:18 | <argoneus> | :O |
| 08:18 | <argoneus> | but the shape of the nose is clear |
| 08:18 | <argoneus> | and it also has a mouth and ear |
| 08:18 | <argoneus> | :( |
| 08:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you see the face? http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/13800000/Creepy-house-random-13896771-640-512.jpg |
| 08:19 | <argoneus> | inb4 gif |
| 08:20 | <argoneus> | Eddi|zuHause: lol |
| 08:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if all the tools you have is a giant face recognition software, everything you see is a face. |
| 08:21 | <V453000> | Pikka: STRETCHING XD https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/NUTS/flatbeds2.png |
| 08:23 | <@peter1138> | Good example. |
| 08:24 | <V453000> | kind of too visible on the balls of steel but hm |
| 08:24 | <Xaroth|Work> | wth @ that train |
| 08:24 | <Xaroth|Work> | what are those, worms? |
| 08:24 | <Xaroth|Work> | with construction hats on? |
| 08:24 | <@peter1138> | Yeti... |
| 08:24 | <V453000> | nuts, and those are yeti |
| 08:25 | <@peter1138> | (Not the abominable snowman kind) |
| 08:25 | <Xaroth|Work> | heh |
| 08:25 | <@peter1138> | Or maybe they are, but shaved... |
| 08:25 | <V453000> | XD |
| 08:25 | <V453000> | yes |
| 08:26 | <argoneus> | do the yeti move on the train |
| 08:26 | <argoneus> | like wiggle wiggle |
| 08:26 | <@peter1138> | They're a bit tall :S |
| 08:27 | <V453000> | no, they dont |
| 08:27 | <V453000> | peter1138: they have the correct YETIscale |
| 08:27 | <V453000> | aka 3m :) |
| 08:28 | <@peter1138> | Sure, I can see the cargo is the "right" height so it's all good :p |
| 08:28 | <frosch123> | you could have some compressor vans, yeti half half their size at 100 bar |
| 08:28 | <@peter1138> | ... |
| 08:29 | <@peter1138> | Been staring at that picture, only just spotted the balls. |
| 08:29 | <@peter1138> | Yeah... stretched. Hmm. |
| 08:29 | <V453000> | I think it isnt totally horrible |
| 08:29 | <argoneus> | you could compress them |
| 08:29 | <V453000> | not perfect, but it can never be that :D |
| 08:29 | <@peter1138> | What happens if you don't stretch them? Are gaps really a problem? |
| 08:30 | <V453000> | yeah, huge gaps like pineapple |
| 08:30 | <argoneus> | how many yetis fit into a car |
| 08:30 | <frosch123> | you could stretch only the wagons, not the cargo |
| 08:30 | <V453000> | I absolutely hate the gaps, if the train looks like there are no gaps in / view, then there must also not be gaps in - or | |
| 08:30 | <@peter1138> | 1 |
| 08:30 | <V453000> | well yeah frosch |
| 08:30 | <frosch123> | i.e. gaps between the cargo |
| 08:30 | <frosch123> | or you can do it the pikka way :) |
| 08:30 | <V453000> | no, that is out of the question :) |
| 08:30 | <frosch123> | do it correct and hope that ottd gets fixed |
| 08:30 | <@peter1138> | Do it pikka's way, and force us to change the game ;) |
| 08:30 | <V453000> | resizing only cargo would be k |
| 08:31 | <V453000> | I can re-render eventually :P |
| 08:31 | <@peter1138> | Redraw every pixel! :D |
| 08:31 | <V453000> | for now I will keep everything stretched |
| 08:32 | <frosch123> | just explain it with the speed |
| 08:32 | <frosch123> | travellling at 200 km per second causes some stretching |
| 08:33 | <@peter1138> | http://pikkarail.com/openttd/a-matter-of-perspective/ |
| 08:33 | <@peter1138> | I like that |
| 08:33 | <@peter1138> | Were pikka complains that \ / views are too short. |
| 08:33 | <@peter1138> | (Rather than - | views too long.) |
| 08:33 | <argoneus> | V453000: I tried drawing something |
| 08:34 | <argoneus> | http://puu.sh/cMqBr/0ab56800e9.png how do I make this look like a table and not his body |
| 08:34 | <V453000> | apply to art school immediately |
| 08:34 | <argoneus> | 2late |
| 08:35 | <argoneus> | V453000: also, I met another czech on irc, and he went to be a programmer p much after finishing high school, in prague |
| 08:35 | <argoneus> | guess how much he makes gross :| |
| 08:35 | <V453000> | idk :) |
| 08:36 | <argoneus> | 35k, how is that possible |
| 08:36 | <V453000> | he is probably useful? :D |
| 08:36 | <argoneus> | I mean |
| 08:36 | <argoneus> | I knew there was a difference between prague and the rest |
| 08:36 | <__ln___> | 35k korunas or euros or what? |
| 08:36 | <argoneus> | but was it THIS big? |
| 08:36 | <V453000> | yes |
| 08:36 | <argoneus> | __ln___: it's like 1500 euros |
| 08:36 | <argoneus> | 1200 |
| 08:37 | <argoneus> | consider that rent costs like 350 euros |
| 08:37 | <argoneus> | V453000: so basically |
| 08:37 | <argoneus> | the country is being fucked over just so people in the capital can be fine? |
| 08:37 | <argoneus> | or how much is rent in your city |
| 08:38 | <V453000> | well fucked over, that doesnt mean prague isnt a lot more expensive in everything and that requirements to have a good job that is well paid arent higher |
| 08:38 | <frosch123> | argoneus: you are too young. money is never related to how much you actually do. it is mostly affected by where you live, how well your company did in the past. life is not fair, don't even try to expect that |
| 08:38 | <V453000> | and seriously, you think about it too much |
| 08:38 | <V453000> | just learn shit :D |
| 08:39 | <argoneus> | I want to |
| 08:39 | <V453000> | and what frosch said |
| 08:39 | <argoneus> | but I know people that became bachelors / masters and got less on their first job |
| 08:39 | <argoneus> | and then there's someone almost fresh out of high school |
| 08:39 | <argoneus> | ;; |
| 08:39 | <frosch123> | argoneus: but guess what, having money doesn't correlate to having fun either. |
| 08:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in germany, that's a very very low wage |
| 08:39 | <argoneus> | not having money correlates to not having fun though |
| 08:39 | <V453000> | yes Eddi :) we know |
| 08:39 | <argoneus> | the average wage in switzerland |
| 08:39 | <argoneus> | is like 5 times ours |
| 08:40 | <V453000> | argoneus: just comparing stuff like this will not lead you anywhere |
| 08:40 | <argoneus> | sure you can argue "living costs" |
| 08:40 | <argoneus> | but they can import cars from our country etc |
| 08:40 | <argoneus> | and it's super cheap |
| 08:40 | <V453000> | there will always be "dude X" who went straight out of high school and made millions in the first few years or so |
| 08:40 | <argoneus> | I just thought |
| 08:40 | <argoneus> | that the point of capitalism was that your effort correlates to your gainings |
| 08:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that was never the point of capitalism |
| 08:41 | <frosch123> | nope, not at all |
| 08:41 | <argoneus> | not the point, but effect* |
| 08:41 | <argoneus> | capitalism emphasizes competition and invididualism |
| 08:41 | <frosch123> | your gaining correlate to what *others* think your work is worth |
| 08:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the point of capitalism was that the price for something depends on how much is offered and how much is demanded |
| 08:41 | <frosch123> | you can work a lot on something which noone cares about |
| 08:41 | <V453000> | like openttd XD |
| 08:41 | <argoneus> | lol |
| 08:41 | <V453000> | :P |
| 08:42 | <frosch123> | and you can work a lot on something which people consider important, even though you don't consider it important yourself |
| 08:42 | <V453000> | like facebook Managers |
| 08:42 | <V453000> | XD |
| 08:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and generally, the more manual labour something consumes, the less valuable it is perceived by others |
| 08:42 | <lastmikoi> | Eddi|zuHause: I don't believe the offer/demand concept is really inherent to capitalism, but I might be wrong. |
| 08:42 | <argoneus> | so basically |
| 08:42 | <V453000> | CAPITALISM DISCUSSION :D |
| 08:42 | <argoneus> | if a lot of people demand something and only little people can do it properly |
| 08:42 | * | V453000 gets back to 3D |
| 08:43 | <argoneus> | then they'll get more even if they have lesser education? |
| 08:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes |
| 08:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | basically |
| 08:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | very simplified |
| 08:43 | <argoneus> | er |
| 08:43 | <argoneus> | only few people* |
| 08:43 | <argoneus> | don't want to discriminate midgets |
| 08:43 | <argoneus> | well, I get that |
| 08:44 | <frosch123> | also "demanded" is not correlated to "being good" |
| 08:44 | <argoneus> | if I was the only one who could knit red sweaters, and everyone wanted red sweaters |
| 08:44 | <argoneus> | then I'd get paid more than a top manager |
| 08:44 | <argoneus> | for knitting sweaters |
| 08:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there is a lot of situational stuff in there as well |
| 08:44 | <V453000> | I mean shit, if you do something really well and people want to pay you because the quality of your work is worth it, you get $$$ |
| 08:44 | <argoneus> | but I don't know if it's just me |
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| 08:44 | <argoneus> | but don't people work as little as possible for as most as possible? |
| 08:44 | <V453000> | education is just to help you do something really well |
| 08:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a large part of earning a lot is applying for the right job at the right time |
| 08:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or knowing the right people |
| 08:45 | <V453000> | that too |
| 08:45 | <argoneus> | ah, right |
| 08:45 | <argoneus> | like two companies can offer the same position |
| 08:45 | <argoneus> | but one values it more |
| 08:45 | <argoneus> | right |
| 08:45 | <frosch123> | "knowing the right people" only works in jobs which do not required "knowledge" |
| 08:45 | <V453000> | not true frosch123 |
| 08:45 | <frosch123> | hmm, maybe in jobs which are really over-crowded |
| 08:46 | <V453000> | +- |
| 08:46 | <argoneus> | frosch123: I think I'm an example of that |
| 08:46 | <argoneus> | I know someone at this company |
| 08:46 | <argoneus> | and just an employee saying "I know this guy" works |
| 08:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | this is why all the self-help "gurus" out there tell you to just show up at places and talk to more people. then it's way more likely that one of those people is "the right" |
| 08:47 | <frosch123> | argoneus: ok, that is true. if someone you trust says that someone else is trustworthy is also worth a lot |
| 08:47 | <frosch123> | you cannot tell the intentions of someone in an 2 hour interview |
| 08:48 | <frosch123> | i thought you were refering to realtives getting a job at the same company |
| 08:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that rarely ends well :p |
| 08:49 | <frosch123> | there are actually a lot of "kids at age 20" in my company, who have no plan what to do, and then just at the company because their parents or sibliings work there |
| 08:49 | <argoneus> | im kid at age 20, thanks :( |
| 08:49 | <frosch123> | usually they are not particulary good, and quit after 2 years when they figure out what they want to do |
| 08:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "the bosses nephew makes this program, he uses the computer a lot" |
| 08:50 | <argoneus> | I'm wondering |
| 08:50 | <argoneus> | if it's a student / part time / internship position |
| 08:50 | <argoneus> | is it common to quit after 1-2 years? |
| 08:50 | <argoneus> | or does the company expect you to stay longer |
| 08:50 | <frosch123> | well, it is said: if you stay for 7 years, you likely stay forever :p |
| 08:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you have an "internship" position for two years, they're probably screwing you over |
| 08:51 | <V453000> | XD |
| 08:51 | <argoneus> | because right now I have a student QA position |
| 08:51 | <frosch123> | i'm in my 7th ottd year btw |
| 08:51 | <argoneus> | and this is definitely not something what I'd like to do longer |
| 08:51 | <argoneus> | it's pretty manual, just following steps |
| 08:52 | <argoneus> | X happens, do Y, report Z |
| 08:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, ask them to put you in a different position of the company, or quit. |
| 08:52 | <argoneus> | well |
| 08:52 | <argoneus> | it's a student position |
| 08:52 | <argoneus> | I didn't expect to be the lead engineer |
| 08:52 | <frosch123> | argoneus: and do you do exactly what you are asked to? or do you make suggestions for alternative ways? |
| 08:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there are "student" positions in other places at that company |
| 08:52 | <argoneus> | there aren't really alternative ways frosch123 |
| 08:53 | <frosch123> | there always are |
| 08:53 | <argoneus> | if it says "we just translated this document, we need you to look through it if there's any misformatting or missing things" |
| 08:53 | <argoneus> | then what can I do |
| 08:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | argoneus: the more you show initiative, the more likely they will see that certain "higher" postiions may be better for you |
| 08:53 | <frosch123> | you could ask whether to use formatting classes and templates |
| 08:54 | <frosch123> | (sorry, don't know the exact english terms there) |
| 08:54 | <argoneus> | nono |
| 08:54 | <argoneus> | I'm literally given a .pdf of 300 pages |
| 08:54 | <argoneus> | and need to make sure there's no misformatting |
| 08:54 | <argoneus> | you can't really automate that |
| 08:54 | <argoneus> | or at least, I can't |
| 08:54 | <V453000> | YAY frosch123 stays with openttd forever :D |
| 09:11 | <@peter1138> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB4SPTlVZ78 |
| 09:11 | <@peter1138> | Wut? |
| 09:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what exactly are you trying to tell us? |
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| 10:15 | <@planetmaker> | <frosch123> i'm in my 7th ottd year btw <-- hm, depending on how I count, I can say the same :D |
| 10:16 | <frosch123> | :) |
| 10:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm probably here a bit longer than that |
| 10:17 | <@planetmaker> | actually... quite exactly as it seems. I registered to tt-f on November 8th 7 years ago |
| 10:17 | <@planetmaker> | and I did in order to report / ask about issues with OpenTTD compilation |
| 10:18 | <b_jonas> | openttd has come a long way since that |
| 10:18 | <frosch123> | well, you do not usually just register for reading |
| 10:18 | <@planetmaker> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=34528#p639920 |
| 10:18 | <@planetmaker> | yes, that's true |
| 10:18 | <frosch123> | not sure when i started reading tt-f, but likely in 2005 or so |
| 10:19 | <@planetmaker> | I later mis-used my first posting to "host" signature files :P |
| 10:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | my first mention in the commit log is from july 2006 |
| 10:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i've probably been in this channel regularly since christmas 2005 |
| 10:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | my first code contribution to the MiniIN was in november 2006 |
| 10:22 | <@planetmaker> | dunno, my first entry as participant in a coop game is December 2007. But I played on some servers earlier, notably Brianetta's one |
| 10:22 | <@planetmaker> | but might not be before 2007... |
| 10:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so yesterday was the 8th anniversary(-ish) |
| 10:23 | * | argoneus pops a popper |
| 10:23 | <@planetmaker> | though maybe... I had an OpenTTD 0.4.5, iirc. which is dated 2006. But I only came back to it really with 0.5.3 |
| 10:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i had a 0.4.0 |
| 10:23 | <@planetmaker> | I *think* |
| 10:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which is really unlikely, because that was only available for a week |
| 10:23 | <argoneus> | in 2005 I was playing jedi academy |
| 10:23 | <argoneus> | :( |
| 10:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i then had a nightly in the r3000 range |
| 10:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | with the completely broken PBS |
| 10:24 | <frosch123> | hehe, when i got ottd 0.4, it had such a feature parity with ttdp 2.0, that i thought it were the same devs doing it, just switching to a more maintainable language :) |
| 10:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and i believe my first question in here was about elrails (or lack thereof) |
| 10:25 | <@planetmaker> | hehe, nice frosch123 :) |
| 10:25 | <frosch123> | i think i read the ottd forums for 2 years, before discovernig that the ttdp section was not just archive |
| 10:26 | <argoneus> | what language is ttdp? |
| 10:26 | <frosch123> | most likely my thinking was along those guys who said "why don't they just join forces" :p |
| 10:26 | <frosch123> | argoneus: masm |
| 10:26 | <argoneus> | oh, masochism |
| 10:27 | <frosch123> | with some magic around it |
| 10:27 | <argoneus> | microsoft products always come with magic :< |
| 10:28 | <frosch123> | i can read asm, and also wrote various system-near things with it |
| 10:28 | <frosch123> | but i always assumed that people who can write asm also can write c |
| 10:28 | <frosch123> | or some other higher language |
| 10:28 | <argoneus> | well |
| 10:28 | <argoneus> | C can be parsed to asm almost 1:1 |
| 10:28 | <argoneus> | most of the operators are directly asm operators |
| 10:28 | <argoneus> | += etc |
| 10:29 | <frosch123> | that's not what i mean |
| 10:29 | <frosch123> | c programmers and asm programmers think differently, which results in very different code |
| 10:29 | <argoneus> | differently in what way? |
| 10:29 | <frosch123> | today i can look at grfcodec and see that it is written by an asm guy |
| 10:30 | <frosch123> | using two-complement overflows to save or-ing a mask and such |
| 10:30 | <argoneus> | hm |
| 10:31 | <frosch123> | "((-overlap_len) << 3) & 0xFF | (p >> 8)" <- this is an asm line |
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| 10:31 | <frosch123> | "0x80 | (16 - overlap_len) << 3 | overlap_pos >> 8;" <- this is the equivalent c line |
| 10:31 | <frosch123> | (both are python actually in this case, but the thinking is different) |
| 10:32 | <@planetmaker> | :D |
| 10:32 | <argoneus> | I don't really understand what this should do in the context |
| 10:32 | <argoneus> | without* |
| 10:32 | <Xaroth|Work> | hehe |
| 10:33 | <argoneus> | all I see is bit shifts and logical operations |
| 10:33 | <argoneus> | bitwise* |
| 10:33 | <frosch123> | it's just the difference of doing "(uint8)(-foo << 3)" vs. "0x80 | (16-foo) << 3" |
| 10:34 | <frosch123> | the asm guy used "-" and a "(uint8)" cast to set the highest bit |
| 10:34 | <frosch123> | the c programmer does it the "natural" way |
| 10:34 | <@planetmaker> | George, re https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7267 : there likely are other cases. de-facto you must make sure to not use any variable which is not cached in order to change any vehicle property |
| 10:35 | <George> | and what is the list of notcached variables? |
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| 10:38 | <@planetmaker> | generally a time or position dependence is a bad idea |
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| 10:43 | <@planetmaker> | unrelated, some people might find this interesting (received as feedback via e-mail): http://marmorstein.org/~robert/p117-marmorstein.pdf |
| 10:45 | <frosch123> | another ottd based scientific paper? |
| 10:45 | <frosch123> | i always wonder whether that also happens to other foss games |
| 10:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | like tuxracer or what? |
| 10:49 | <frosch123> | wesnoth, widelands, that category |
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| 10:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | about the "race condition" he probably didn't find the "ignore signal" button |
| 10:50 | <@peter1138> | Heh |
| 10:51 | <frosch123> | hmm, i think that paper relies on block signals. pbs cannot be used to explain traditional mutexes |
| 10:52 | <@planetmaker> | he writes explicitly block signals, yes |
| 10:52 | <frosch123> | see, there is a use for block signals :) |
| 10:52 | <@peter1138> | :-) |
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| 10:52 | <argoneus> | someone call the V453000 |
| 10:52 | <V453000> | frosch123: too many words, correct sentence is "pbs cannot be used" |
| 10:53 | <@peter1138> | Iyeah, we don't have pbs |
| 10:53 | <@peter1138> | path signals are much better :) |
| 10:54 | <@planetmaker> | " In fact, several of them continued |
| 10:54 | <@planetmaker> | playing with the train scenario well after completing the checkpoints on which they were |
| 10:54 | <@planetmaker> | graded. The exercise worked well as an introduction to threads and synchronization (...)" :) |
| 10:55 | <@peter1138> | "The exercise worked well as in introduction to playing games instead of learning" |
| 10:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i most certainly have PBS. in my (functional) MiniIN checkout |
| 10:55 | <frosch123> | Eddi|zuHause: does it compile? |
| 10:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes |
| 10:55 | <frosch123> | or do you just claim it does |
| 10:55 | <George> | planetmaker: time dependence - does it include date of last service and build year? |
| 10:55 | <@peter1138> | Is that Hackykid's implementation? |
| 10:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a few months ago, at least |
| 10:55 | <@planetmaker> | those are cached, afaik, George |
| 10:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | frosch123: the problematic parts are inbetween, in the r10000 range |
| 10:56 | <frosch123> | so, do you run an really old os, or did you do all those libpng and gcc 4.6 adjustments |
| 10:56 | <@planetmaker> | George, they are not exactly time-variable |
| 10:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | after the c++ move |
| 10:56 | <@peter1138> | George, they are fine to use |
| 10:56 | <@peter1138> | I think. |
| 10:56 | <@peter1138> | Build year definitely never changes :p |
| 10:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | anyway, gtg |
| 10:57 | <@planetmaker> | I think they're not only cached but actually saved. which is the actual better definition of "does not desync" |
| 10:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | frosch123: it throws a boatload of warnings |
| 10:58 | <@peter1138> | Yeah, servicing triggers a... erm... trigger, so the cache is refreshed. |
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| 11:03 | <ginko> | Can I transport goods via a complex route, let's say via bus to an airport, from there to an airport, and then via train to a city? |
| 11:03 | <ginko> | *..., from there to a different airport, ... |
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| 11:06 | <@Rubidium> | Supercheese / planetmaker: better now? ;) |
| 11:06 | <ginko> | (and if so, how, and if not, how to work around this) |
| 11:06 | <frosch123> | planetmaker: nice paper actually. way better than the usual ones :) |
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| 12:01 | <argoneus> | ayy |
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| 12:07 | <George> | What is the date of last service for newly built engine/wagon? |
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| 12:09 | <frosch123> | it should be the build date |
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| 12:19 | <@planetmaker> | distances... :D http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3542#comic |
| 12:20 | <@Alberth> | :D |
| 12:25 | <NGC3982> | :D |
| 12:25 | <@planetmaker> | the previous one there is also quite good |
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| 12:45 | <@DorpsGek> | Commit by translators :: r27061 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt latvian.txt) (2014-11-13 17:45:38 UTC) |
| 12:45 | <@DorpsGek> | -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
| 12:45 | <@DorpsGek> | czech - 1 changes by marek995 |
| 12:45 | <@DorpsGek> | latvian - 1 changes by Parastais |
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| 13:10 | <Quatroking> | simon and garfunkel is great openttd music |
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| 13:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i like garfunkel and oates |
| 13:17 | <__ln___> | spanish word of the day: Baja Sajonia |
| 13:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | lower saxony? |
| 13:18 | <__ln___> | correcto |
| 13:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | wouldn't that be sajonia baja? |
| 13:20 | <__ln___> | apparently not. and the order isn't always noun + adjective in spanish in general. |
| 13:25 | <@peter1138> | Well, it's just a name. |
| 13:26 | <@peter1138> | The whole thing is the noun, it is a noun with an adjective. |
| 13:26 | <@peter1138> | Like East Suffolk is separate from Suffolk, rather than being the Eastern part of it. |
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| 13:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, sure. lower saxony is not a part of saxony, either |
| 13:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | nor is there an "upper" saxony :p |
| 13:44 | <frosch123> | they do not even share a border |
| 13:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: the reading/writing problem might be explained with platforms |
| 13:45 | <frosch123> | write a follow-up paper :) |
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| 13:56 | <andythenorth> | o/ |
| 14:00 | <Quatroking> | i love building stations like these http://a.pomf.se/qcpkyt.png |
| 14:00 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, that's pretty much what I said :p |
| 14:00 | <andythenorth> | I love trains |
| 14:00 | <@peter1138> | I like turtles |
| 14:00 | <andythenorth> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHkKJfcBXcw |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | I am the guy in that video |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | even looks like me |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | even sounds like me |
| 14:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i just wanted to say "i like trains" |
| 14:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i never really have the space to do such stations |
| 14:02 | <@peter1138> | I never have the patience. |
| 14:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i have to fill every small niche |
| 14:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | non-track tiles rarely fit anywhere |
| 14:04 | <andythenorth> | use a bigger map |
| 14:04 | <andythenorth> | 8192x8192 should do it |
| 14:04 | <andythenorth> | where is my 8*8192 map option? :( |
| 14:05 | <frosch123> | do firs industries even fit on there :p |
| 14:06 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
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| 14:06 | <andythenorth> | I recode FIRS |
| 14:06 | <andythenorth> | all industries, single tile |
| 14:06 | <andythenorth> | winner |
| 14:06 | <Quatroking> | I have my settings set to keep 3 tiles free around industries |
| 14:07 | <Wolf01> | hi |
| 14:08 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: i want a 1x8k map then |
| 14:08 | <frosch123> | depot on one end |
| 14:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: the last map i played was 128x256 or so |
| 14:08 | <frosch123> | then a row of stations, and tunnel under each industry |
| 14:09 | <frosch123> | with the right tunnel/bridge combo you may even make it bidirectional |
| 14:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | frosch123: need at least 3 tiles on a side to have one tile be buildable |
| 14:09 | <frosch123> | well, i mean one buildable tile ofc |
| 14:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the next higher power of two then is 4 |
| 14:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so you have 2 tiles to build on |
| 14:10 | <frosch123> | you can always add more void tiles |
| 14:10 | <frosch123> | we discussed non-square non-power-of-2 maps before :) |
| 14:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes. |
| 14:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but the current map generator won't produce those :p |
| 14:11 | <frosch123> | it won't produce a 4x8k map either |
| 14:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, you get NewGRF trouble |
| 14:11 | <frosch123> | isn't that the normal case? |
| 14:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | because map size is exposed in a crazy format |
| 14:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | as it happens when assembler-programmers focus on bitstuffing and ressource efficiency |
| 14:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | dear cat, have you seen the mouse? |
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| 14:21 | <andythenorth> | first where is cat? |
| 14:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | within arm's reach |
| 14:22 | <andythenorth> | solved |
| 14:22 | <andythenorth> | finally |
| 14:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so, almost all the warnings in MiniIN are of the form |
| 14:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | smallmap_gui.c:698:2: warning: dereferencing type-punned pointer will break strict-aliasing rules [-Wstrict-aliasing] |
| 14:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | tile_x = WP(w,smallmap_d).scroll_x / TILE_SIZE; |
| 14:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and a handful of unused variable ones... |
| 14:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but my terminal buffer isn't big enough to show them all |
| 14:27 | <@peter1138> | Ah, the old WP macro... |
| 14:27 | <@peter1138> | So glad we got rid of that :) |
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| 14:39 | <Supercheese> | Huzzah, webtranslator fixed |
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| 15:32 | <ginko> | What is your personal preference? Inflation on or off? |
| 15:33 | <Zuu> | off |
| 15:33 | <Zuu> | Though, I prefere my air mattress inflated |
| 15:34 | <ginko> | Is it much easier with it off? Feels a little bit like cheating |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | inflation is borked |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | it’s not cheating |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | inflation is stupid |
| 15:35 | <ginko> | borked how? |
| 15:35 | <andythenorth> | costs inflate faster than income iirc |
| 15:35 | <andythenorth> | something dumb anyway |
| 15:35 | <b_jonas> | I like inflation, but it has some unforgunate side effects: |
| 15:35 | <b_jonas> | like, if you start a game in 2030, you can't borrow enough to build a rail line |
| 15:36 | <ginko> | Ah k |
| 15:36 | <b_jonas> | even though the borrow amount is supposed to grow with inflation |
| 15:36 | <ginko> | Is it normal to make the biggest amount of money with planes (by a big margin)? |
| 15:36 | <b_jonas> | but then, it doesn't matter much |
| 15:36 | <b_jonas> | ginko: in the mid-game, yes, but in late game big passenger trains make much more than planes |
| 15:36 | <ginko> | (well, it might change, I am in 1967 having started from 1950, but I don't think it will) |
| 15:36 | <ginko> | K, thanks :) |
| 15:37 | <b_jonas> | in 1967 it might be possible |
| 15:37 | <b_jonas> | you haven't had time to grow the towns yet |
| 15:37 | <b_jonas> | when you grow them, they supply lots of passengers, |
| 15:37 | <b_jonas> | and yuo get fast trains later |
| 15:37 | <b_jonas> | and strong trains |
| 15:37 | <b_jonas> | that adds up |
| 15:37 | <b_jonas> | planes improve a bit, but not as much as trains |
| 15:38 | <ginko> | Biggest town is 8k currently ;) |
| 15:38 | <ginko> | 2nd biggest only 5k |
| 15:39 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 15:39 | <b_jonas> | ginko: the trains matter too. they really get better later |
| 15:39 | <andythenorth> | Zuu: could you store local pricing per town per cargo? |
| 15:39 | <andythenorth> | I won’t suggest per-tile :P |
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| 15:40 | <ginko> | b_jonas I use them quite a lot, but it is a big map and so I have started flying a lot of goods and passengers around. Every major city now has an airport |
| 15:41 | <ginko> | b_jonas and at this point I only use them for goods or things like coal or steel, not for passengers |
| 15:41 | <ginko> | I have a lot of water, but ships are soooooo slow |
| 15:41 | <Zuu> | andythenorth: differentiated payment per cargo and town is doable. |
| 15:42 | <andythenorth> | demand economy |
| 15:42 | <Zuu> | Industry level is a bit more work and will not work for cargo accepted by town houses. |
| 15:42 | <andythenorth> | deliver more, price goes down |
| 15:42 | <andythenorth> | above some demand threshold |
| 15:42 | <andythenorth> | like Railroad Tycoon 3 |
| 15:42 | <andythenorth> | I don’t think it will make great gameplay in TTD |
| 15:42 | <andythenorth> | but might be a nice toy project |
| 15:43 | <Zuu> | I regard CashDrainGS mostly as a toy already. |
| 15:43 | <andythenorth> | so in RT3, industries and houses create demand |
| 15:43 | <andythenorth> | as cargo is delivered, price drops |
| 15:43 | <andythenorth> | there is a floor |
| 15:43 | <andythenorth> | in other areas of demand, unmet demand increases the price gradient |
| 15:44 | <Zuu> | That would be very easy to implement if that is done on mothly basis. |
| 15:44 | <andythenorth> | monthly would be fine |
| 15:44 | <Zuu> | Now payment is [monthly delivery] * [payment factor] |
| 15:44 | <andythenorth> | RT3 has a neat red-yellow-green heatmap for demand, GS can’t do that :) |
| 15:44 | <ginko> | Is there a place in which I can download savegames by more advanced players (to have a look, play and learn?!) |
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| 15:45 | <andythenorth> | http://www.tycoon-games-review.com/images/Railroadtycoon3overview.jpg |
| 15:45 | <Zuu> | You could do [monthly delivery] ^ (0.5) * [payment factor] |
| 15:45 | <andythenorth> | in RT3, it also takes into account terrain |
| 15:45 | <Zuu> | Or just square root everything. |
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| 15:45 | <andythenorth> | so tiles separated by mountains have high demand relative to other side of mountain |
| 15:45 | <Zuu> | Or whatever way you like to shape it. |
| 15:46 | <andythenorth> | probably a good toy |
| 15:46 | <andythenorth> | could really use some list of localised prices though :D |
| 15:47 | <Zuu> | Sounds interesting. I wrote somewhere that it could look at the distance to closest x supplies and if they are far, increase payment. |
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| 15:48 | <Zuu> | The good thing about using town level is that GS can put some info in the town window. As the feedback on what you get paid gets a bit broken with this GS. |
| 15:48 | <andythenorth> | yeah :) |
| 15:49 | <andythenorth> | needs a price layer on minimap :P |
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| 15:50 | <Zuu> | Or remove all trees on the map, disable tree growth and then place more trees where towns pay more. Though I think just removing all trees will need an insane amount of DoCommands, and I am afraid trees are made before the script starts up and have a say on the (advanced) settings. |
| 15:51 | <ginko> | I don't want to annoy people online, so I have to ask in advance: Can I join a server to just briefly have a look and be a silent watchful eye upon the game played instead of participating myself? |
| 15:51 | <Zuu> | Yes |
| 15:52 | <Zuu> | What may happen is that the game will pause briefly when you join. So joinging servers just to quit quickly is not always welcome though. |
| 15:52 | <andythenorth> | treetype per cargo? o_O |
| 15:52 | <andythenorth> | do we have enough trees :P |
| 15:52 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 15:52 | <andythenorth> | signs |
| 15:52 | <andythenorth> | can be hidden :P |
| 15:53 | <Zuu> | It can use signs, but those are not visible on the minimap. |
| 15:53 | <andythenorth> | GS-defined minimap layer |
| 15:53 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 15:53 | <Zuu> | It even can make $ signs of the company colour on towns that get income :-) |
| 15:54 | <Zuu> | But those will not raise and then disappear :-) |
| 15:54 | <andythenorth> | I guess demand economy does nothing for those who are bothered by distance |
| 15:54 | <andythenorth> | but eh |
| 15:55 | <andythenorth> | [shrug] |
| 15:55 | <ginko> | Zuu Thank you :) Works perfectly fine, very interesting... those rails are insane.. (have to read up on signals,... shame be upon me :D) |
| 15:59 | <Zuu> | ginko: When you learn to build networks, the game often become more fun. |
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| 16:00 | <ginko> | Zuu I kind of have the urge to delete my map and start from scratch... have already done so multiple times the last few days |
| 16:00 | <ginko> | :D |
| 16:00 | <ginko> | But I have money on the map, so I can play around with trains and signals until I get the hang of it (or "some hang" ;)) |
| 16:00 | <Zuu> | I suggest starting with path signals and ignore the block type signals for now. The path signal work for most things. |
| 16:01 | <Zuu> | A rule of thumb for them is to put them where it is safe for a train to wait. |
| 16:01 | <Zuu> | If you don't want a train waiting somewhere, don't put a signal there. |
| 16:02 | <Zuu> | For example you don't want trains waiting ontop of the cross-intersection before a station. So put the signal before the intersection, but not between it and the station. |
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| 16:06 | <andythenorth> | you can always cheat money |
| 16:06 | <andythenorth> | for learning stuff |
| 16:10 | <ginko> | gn8 all, ty for your help and advise :) |
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| 16:12 | <Marshy> | Evening! o/ |
| 16:18 | <Taede> | ello |
| 16:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | my attempt at an economy simulation would be: each town (and its attached industries) have two values: demanded amount and paid price. every month, if delivered amount is lower than demanded amount, demanded amount decreases, and paid price increases, if higher, the other way around. there is a general growth of demand values also over time (or with town size) |
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| 16:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so if you ignored a town for a while and then connect it, you get very high prices for a short time, then it normalizes around the amount you actually deliver |
| 16:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | paid prices would not depend on distance (but still could get penalties for late delivery and stuff) |
| 16:22 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: yes, that’s a better explanation of what I mean by demand economy |
| 16:25 | <andythenorth> | maybe I should get a new game |
| 16:25 | <andythenorth> | and maybe it shouldn’t be 2048 :P |
| 16:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i've played through 2048. i've no desire to play it anymore. |
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| 16:37 | <andythenorth> | yeah |
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| 16:42 | * | andythenorth plays some stupid bubble game |
| 16:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5Y8C6WHvcU |
| 16:46 | * | andythenorth has bad german :P |
| 16:48 | <andythenorth> | maybe I just play Silicon Valley |
| 16:48 | <andythenorth> | again :) |
| 16:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | roughly: "hey mom, how was it when you went to the internet as a kid?" - "there was no internet when i was a kid" - "oh right, because of the war..." |
| 16:48 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 16:49 | <b_jonas> | what... |
| 16:49 | <b_jonas> | Eddi|zuHause: wait, what war? |
| 16:49 | <+glx> | Eddi|zuHause: not because of the dinos ? |
| 16:49 | <b_jonas> | did you live in a place that had a war? |
| 16:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i loved the dinos... "not the mommy! *bang*" |
| 16:50 | <frosch123> | i like the top comment more :) |
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| 16:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | frosch123: i like the second top comment even better :p |
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| 16:52 | <NGC3982> | The damn thing works. |
| 16:52 | <NGC3982> | It's alive. |
| 16:52 | <NGC3982> | It's alive"!"¤!"! |
| 16:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but it supposedly lies on the side, with not getting enough sunlight |
| 16:53 | <NGC3982> | I finally solved the Supybot server-to-IRC issue. |
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| 17:00 | <Taede> | :D |
| 17:01 | -!- | sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.27.245] has quit [] |
| 17:01 | <Quatroking> | jesus christ, does moving my HQ cost 10% of my company's worth? |
| 17:02 | <Taede> | so what was the solution? |
| 17:03 | <frosch123> | nothing is more resistant to moving than office workers |
| 17:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | b_jonas: do you still need the joke explained? |
| 17:04 | <b_jonas> | Eddi|zuHause: no, I know there wasn't internet back then, I was just wondering if you were serious about the war |
| 17:04 | <b_jonas> | or if it's just for the joke |
| 17:04 | <b_jonas> | I'm not as young as that kid, I know what it was like before the internet |
| 17:04 | <NGC3982> | Taede: Thanks for the patience and the fact that i feel like i have never used Linux before. |
| 17:04 | <frosch123> | b_jonas: as the comments explain. it's about the french-german war from 1960 |
| 17:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | b_jonas: part of the joke is that the kid has no relation between when the war happened and when his mother was a kid, so everything "in the past" sorta blends into each other. |
| 17:06 | <b_jonas> | oh come on, a kid might not understand about the internet or dinosaurs, I get that, but they can't seriously think there was a war if there wasn't, right? |
| 17:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | like my brother had this idea that in the past, the world was black and white, because he had only ever seen black and white photos |
| 17:06 | <b_jonas> | it's possible that there was a war where he lived |
| 17:06 | <b_jonas> | Eddi|zuHause: yeah, I know |
| 17:07 | <b_jonas> | that's reasonable |
| 17:07 | <b_jonas> | but a war? |
| 17:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well there was a war |
| 17:07 | <frosch123> | there has always been wars in europe |
| 17:07 | <b_jonas> | yes, there was. and only a hundred kilometers or two to the south |
| 17:07 | <b_jonas> | I know |
| 17:07 | <frosch123> | the past years are just an error in the measurement |
| 17:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | b_jonas: this is obviously from a german perspective |
| 17:08 | <b_jonas> | oh, then a few more kilometers |
| 17:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | b_jonas: "the war" then most likely referring to WWII |
| 17:09 | <NGC3982> | Don't mention ze war. |
| 17:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the thing that runs up and down every documentary channel there is... |
| 17:09 | <b_jonas> | if she's asking the grandparents, sure |
| 17:09 | <b_jonas> | yeah, young people now don't remember the more recent war |
| 17:09 | <b_jonas> | luckily |
| 17:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's not about remembering |
| 17:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's about piecing together information that you pass by on the internet (or the "real" world) |
| 17:10 | <b_jonas> | oh... they learn from the internet |
| 17:10 | <b_jonas> | not from their parents and teachers and tv now |
| 17:10 | <b_jonas> | that might explain it |
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| 17:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well. like when i was first told the story about "the little trumpet boy", i had a totally different image of it in my head than what actually happened |
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| 17:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_kleine_Trompeter |
| 17:14 | <andythenorth> | bye |
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| 17:29 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| 18:00 | <supermop> | smoke looks better in squid that i remember |
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| 18:08 | <frosch123> | it was improved some months ago |
| 18:08 | <frosch123> | (if you are playing nightly) |
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| 18:35 | <argoneus> | ayy |
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| --- | Log | closed Fri Nov 14 00:00:56 2014 |
