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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-11-21

---Logopened Fri Nov 21 00:00:06 2014
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04:09<V453000>Eddi: I wanted to force strong penalty in case Express-Only trains hauled also cargo wagon [the universal wagon refit to cargo instead of pass/mail/gold/diam/valu]
04:14<V453000>but I suppose changing the capacity to 0 is less wtf
04:15<@planetmaker>V453000, simply do not allow attachment instead of doing wtf with 0 cargo or low speed :S
04:16<@planetmaker>both of those things are equally annoying. Majorly, I have to say
04:17<@planetmaker>do not intoduce such bullshit just for the sake of saving *one* vehicleID where you have thousands free
04:17<V453000>there will be options probably
04:17<V453000>but the attachment tends to be confusing just as well
04:17<@planetmaker>if you don't want it universally refittable, just don't make it so
04:18<@planetmaker>I mean... what's the point to allow a refit in order to just say "ätsch, you can refit, but not use it!"
04:19<@planetmaker>not allowing attachment is much clearer than a no-feedback capacity or speed
04:20<V453000>capacity can have feedback through vehicle sprites
04:20<@planetmaker>attachment hauls a big error message at the player
04:20<V453000>remember the wtf sprites like MORE that mb had in db set? :P idk if they are still there
04:20<@planetmaker>nothing he needs to understand
04:20<@planetmaker>yes, I do. Big uglyness
04:21<@planetmaker>worst feature there is in that set, really
04:21<V453000>about just as much as an error
04:21<@planetmaker>that's bullshit, total bullshit. If you don#t want it attached, that's what the attachment callback is for
04:21<V453000>sure but controlling length of consist by it is something different :)
04:21<@planetmaker>and if you don't want to allow that refit, that's the refit callback used for
04:21<@planetmaker>don't allow everything and then cripple certain options
04:22<@planetmaker>that's HUGE bogus bullshit behaviour
04:22<@planetmaker>use the feedback to allow things which are meant to give the corresponding feedback
04:23<V453000>I might just provide both options while at it, selectible by parameter
04:23<V453000>I can see why you think so but at the same time I think my solution is just fine
04:24<@planetmaker>that's actually like the features I totally dislike with ussr set. silent changes of stuff without feedback
04:24<@planetmaker>and don't tell me sprites change. That's not proper feedback
04:24<V453000>it is
04:24<@planetmaker>you know them. But that's not immediately clear.
04:25<@planetmaker>it's bad, if you could say clearly instead "doesn't work"
04:25<V453000>if sprites change to huge red text "SHIT IS HAPPENING", it is clear
04:25<@planetmaker>that's bullshit UI
04:25<V453000>well the error disappears after a short while anyway? :P
04:25<@planetmaker>that's the point. Somewhen a player might notice. If at all
04:25<@planetmaker>just do not ignore the machanisms which are there to tell players. Use them
04:26<@planetmaker>Or they will totally be "wtrf? what's wrong"
04:26<@planetmaker>you cannot do better with sprites than the UI which is meant to tell players
04:26<V453000>purchase menu text in red explaisn whats wrong quite quickly too
04:27<@planetmaker>no. People don't read
04:27<V453000>then they dont need error message :D
04:27<@planetmaker>or: "but I can attach it, why doesn't it work?"
04:27<@planetmaker>yes, they do. Because then it simply doesn't work
04:27<V453000>they can see they cant "really" attach it
04:27<@planetmaker>but your approach makes it appear to work and screw them at the same time
04:27<V453000>and if pax cargo is default they only notice after refitting to freight
04:27<@planetmaker>and don't call it universal wagon, if it isn't
04:28<V453000>it will be ultimate wagon now (:
04:31<V453000>I will still consider things, there will be a lot of options to choose from, too, but I still see my solution as okay
04:32<V453000>so far from talking to players I have seen 99% of reports about "why is train not autoreplacing"
04:32<V453000>obviously because there is wrong wagon
04:32<V453000>admittedly they probably dont autoreplace between express and cargo wagons
04:33<V453000>but that is why I will provide all options, and at some point choose what should be the default
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04:49<@planetmaker>V453000, for that reason: don't make it articulated vehicles. Just make it engines and wagons all separately. And if you then want to adopt looks of wagons to engine, use a switch which queries the engineID and draw different wagon graphics
04:49<@planetmaker>but if they are just separate vehicles, autoreplace is no problem at all
04:50<V453000>it is engines and wagons, but wagons are articulated
04:50<V453000>the 2x 4/8 ones
04:51<V453000>but the ultimate wagon must be able to appear both as 4/8 and 8/8, meaning it has to be 1+2+2+2+1 articulated vehicle =D
04:52<@planetmaker>uh, why?
04:52<@planetmaker>you can simply use one wagon with length 4 or 8?
04:52<V453000>not if I cant change amount of articulated vehicles in consist
04:53<V453000>(keeping total length at 8/8 is key)
04:53<@planetmaker>no, but why would you need more than one vehicle for that wagon?
04:53<@planetmaker>ah, ok
04:53<V453000>autoreplace again :>
04:54<@planetmaker>why must it appear as 4/8 and 8/8?
04:54<@planetmaker>can't it always be 8/8? And just look like 2* 4/8?
04:54<@planetmaker>as one vehicle?
04:55<V453000>doesnt turn in half in curves :/
04:55<V453000>and that already breaks curve speeds, might as well break them completely with 1+2+2+2+1
04:56<@planetmaker>anyway, that's the same vehicleID in all cases. So how does that interfere with autoreplace?
04:56<@planetmaker>(though why doesn't 1+6+1 or 3+2+3 work?
04:56<@planetmaker>(depending on 2* 4/8 or 1*8/8)
04:57<V453000>if I write it as x1+Y2+Z2+Y2+x1
04:57<V453000>Y2 is centers of 4/8s
04:57<V453000>and Z2 is center of 8/8
04:57<V453000>well thats why, proper turning
04:57<@planetmaker>yep, agreed
04:57<@planetmaker>ok, and what's the autoreplace issue now?
04:58<V453000>now the main issue is that I have like 7 various wagons for various engines
04:58<V453000>and all the bullshit "this engine can only haul those wagons"
04:58<V453000>with the ultimate wagon you would autoreplace only engines and wagons would automatically follow
04:58<@planetmaker>follow in what way?
04:58<@planetmaker>you mean adopt graphics? that doesn't need any refit
04:58<V453000>adapt sprites / all stats
04:59<V453000>no, that keeps original refit
04:59<V453000>the issue of ultimate wagon would come when the wagon would try to refit to coal when attached by a pax-only train
04:59<V453000>since the pax-only trains are vastly superior in all stats, there would be low sense in using anything else
04:59<@planetmaker>yes. Just use the refit callback. Query the lead engine in that callback and return "allowed yes/no"
05:00<V453000>that is what I asked about earlier =D so I can change refittability based on leading engine?
05:00<@planetmaker>yes, I would think so
05:00<@planetmaker>use PARENT scope
05:00<@planetmaker>and position in consist
05:03<V453000>well if that works then it solves everything :D
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05:03<V453000>position in consist probably isnt important, the engine doesnt need any switch, it has clearly defined what to refit to, just the wagons and it doesnt matter where they are in tha consist :)
05:07<V453000>will try to do stuff tomorrow
05:07<V453000>alcohol and stuff todey
05:09<V453000>maybe I can try to get it done after lunch =D back soon
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05:10<andythenorth>BAD FEATURES
05:10<@planetmaker>agreed. You still shouldn't allow attachment of the wagons in the first place
05:11<@planetmaker>if the current cargo doesn't match
05:11<@planetmaker>or just have one wagon per engine type :P
05:11<andythenorth>oh you’re actually talking about BAD FEATURES :P
05:11*andythenorth -> logs
05:13<andythenorth>I didn’t understand why you’re having 2 wagons tbh
05:13<andythenorth>but I don’t know nuts very well :)
05:13<andythenorth>apart from some evil trains I remember
05:13<andythenorth>1 wagon is fine
05:18<@planetmaker>hm, new irons for the horse
05:26<andythenorth>only a small one
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05:37<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i imagine 0 capacity will break a lot of AIs, and confuse a lot of players
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>that's a BAD FEATURE waiting to happen
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>honestly, i think 2 wagons is the cleanest solution
05:42<andythenorth>or just 1
05:42<andythenorth>no limits
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06:09<andythenorth>V453000: remind me, what’s the problem with having just 1 wagon?
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>boring gameplay, i presume
06:11<@peter1138>Isn't that the point of NUTS?
06:11<andythenorth>bloody tourist cargo
06:11<andythenorth>sorry George :)
06:11<supermop>damnit andy new ih?
06:11<supermop>i just started a game
06:12<supermop>well about to quit
06:12<@peter1138>Do tourists pay more than commuters?
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06:12<andythenorth>depends on max loan
06:12<andythenorth>lo Alberth
06:12<@peter1138>(Well, ignoring season passes and the like)
06:13<@Alberth>hi hi
06:14<andythenorth>tourists are bloody express as well as pax
06:14<andythenorth>which fucks over refits
06:14<andythenorth>'non_all_freight': ['TOUR'] :P
06:14<@peter1138>Stupid cargo.
06:15<andythenorth>we all do stupid things
06:16<supermop>i once rode in an open car as a tourist i see no issue
06:16<andythenorth>fair point
06:16<andythenorth>maybe I should allow the mail cars to haul tourists :P
06:17<supermop>really a tourist should want an exciting interesting ride
06:17<supermop>baggage avtually does sound quite a good idea
06:17<@Alberth>max loan isn't done yet ?
06:17<supermop>why not model tourists as bags?
06:20<andythenorth>where is my ECS
06:20<andythenorth>which vectors do I need?
06:20<andythenorth>Basic Vector for Arctic?
06:20<@Alberth>(1, 0) and (0, 1)
06:20<andythenorth>Construction Vector by Pikka?
06:21<@Alberth>new horse, I see
06:21<andythenorth>Basic Vector II?
06:21<andythenorth>which one is Tourists?
06:22<andythenorth>released version of OTTD has tiny GUI
06:22<andythenorth>like it’s 2013 or something
06:22<@Alberth>town, for 1.1.2
06:23<@Alberth>although I never managed to get any tourist :p
06:24<V453000>planetmaker: nuts currently does have one wagon per engine class kind of :P iz bad
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06:25<V453000>andythenorth: the problem with 1 wagon is that there are express trains which are better than anything else, and are meant to only carry express cargoes
06:25<andythenorth>are they faster than other trains?
06:27<V453000>a lot
06:27<V453000>faster, stronger, better
06:27<V453000>if disallowing to refit the wagons to specific cargoes with some engines works, it could be fine then
06:29<andythenorth>you need two wagons, then either prevent attach, or use a speed limit
06:29<andythenorth>speed limits are the answer
06:29<andythenorth>or get rid of the express trains
06:29<andythenorth>which is even easier decision
06:30<supermop>dont see new horse - do i need new nightly?
06:30<andythenorth>not on bananas yet
06:30<andythenorth>small oversight
06:30<V453000>bad decision though :) they have their use
06:30*andythenorth doing chores
06:30<V453000>speed limits are not helping either if the train is stronger :)
06:30<andythenorth>V453000: well get rid of the other engines then
06:30<andythenorth>just use express
06:31<V453000>... :)
06:31<V453000>variety is a word? :P
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06:31<@Alberth>as in, a sequence of letter without whitespace in-between, sure :)
06:33<andythenorth>supermop: on bananas now
06:34<andythenorth>hg != git :P
06:34<andythenorth>that’s 5 mins of wtf I won’t get back
06:35<andythenorth>hg add . is also highly undesirable :P
06:35*andythenorth might have to switch to git
06:36<V453000>so how do I apply a switch to those? can they be used as a callback somehow? cargo_allow_refit: []; cargo_disallow_refit: [YETI];
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06:37<V453000>cause they arent included in callbacks on the tt-wiki
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: there is a refit callback
06:37<andythenorth>do it with the refit cost cb
06:37<andythenorth>it has an allow / disallow option
06:38<andythenorth>you’re breaking everyone’s orders though
06:38<andythenorth>it’s a bad idea
06:38*andythenorth isn’t just arguing for sake of arguing :P
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still recommending just the 2 wagon solution
06:38<andythenorth>me too
06:39<V453000>I will include that for sure in parameters
06:39<V453000>just want to try and see how would one wagon work
06:40<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: product(1-alpha) seem right to me
06:42<andythenorth>come on bundles :P
06:44<@Alberth>good products take time to cook :)
06:44*andythenorth watches jenkins
06:45<andythenorth>so slow
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06:48<@Alberth>things are always slow when you watch them
06:49<andythenorth>science fact
06:49<andythenorth>supermop: you’d better upgrade :P
06:49<andythenorth>also I just broke all savegames, but didn’t bump version
06:55<andythenorth>that tourists bug will also affect Road Hog
06:55<andythenorth>and Squid :(
07:01<@planetmaker>'tourists bug'?
07:01<andythenorth>tourists set express cargo
07:01<andythenorth>class / cargo /s
07:01<andythenorth>it’s not a bug
07:01<andythenorth>but it causes bugs in sets
07:01<andythenorth>if that makes sense :P
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07:03<V453000>tourists are obviously oversized
07:04<andythenorth>only on the way home
07:04<supermop>why not silently remove tourists from game and chide player for attempting to transport them
07:04<@planetmaker>right, yes. So the 'bug' is that class 'express' usually is treated like that it's not a passenger?
07:05<@planetmaker>one could argue that tourists being class 'express' is a bug, too :)
07:05<@planetmaker>depends. But doesn't matter as it is like it is
07:05<@planetmaker>treat it by cargo label and you're safe :)
07:06<andythenorth>well now it’s a fact in the wild
07:06<andythenorth>not hard to fix, just blearch
07:06<@planetmaker>using the properties which explicitly allow or disallow certain labels
07:06<andythenorth>already done ;)
07:08<V453000>nuts hax that all the time :P
07:10<@peter1138>We added the "explicity add/remove cargo carrying by label" property, didn't we?
07:10<andythenorth>problem solved
07:10<@peter1138>Before that it was pretty impossible :p
07:11<andythenorth>nothing to see here except griping
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07:11<andythenorth>anyway, should buy menu show the cargo decay rate thing?
07:11<andythenorth>for vehicules
07:13<@planetmaker>andythenorth, how do you want to show it?
07:13<andythenorth>good question
07:13<andythenorth>what does the number mean, to player?
07:13<andythenorth>same for loading speed I guess
07:13<@planetmaker>just put it into nice words
07:13<andythenorth>not possible
07:14<@planetmaker>and don't make it too complicated (i.e. vary by cargo and time and mood ;) )
07:14<andythenorth>my compile doesn’t allow extra buy menu text
07:14<@planetmaker>fast / slow / normal ?
07:14<@planetmaker>ach, you and your compile not possible
07:14<V453000>NICE WORDS XD
07:14<V453000>loading speed does make sense though I think
07:15<andythenorth>extra buy menu text is a sign of weak design imho
07:15<@planetmaker>you fixed your compile process up to the point that it now inhibits you making nice stuff, andythenorth :)
07:15<@Alberth>not really, amount of cargo / speed does
07:16<@Alberth>ie full loading time
07:16<andythenorth>I’ve gone right off extra text, I think it’s used to gloss over terrible ideas
07:16<andythenorth>and make them sound nice
07:16<@planetmaker>loading speed and cargo decay are viable differentiations between vehicles. Adding that info imho does not constitute bad feature nor terrible ideas
07:16<andythenorth>I’d bin the text in FIRS if I could only think how
07:16<@Alberth>it can be used for that, yeah
07:17<andythenorth>if those properties are valid to show to player, then ottd should do it
07:17<V453000>andy I think you are going too far with removing things
07:17<V453000>no offense
07:18<@planetmaker>andythenorth, but then openttd would have to decide about the meaning of normal speed
07:18<@planetmaker>which cannot really be done
07:18<@planetmaker>at least not sensibly. Because then immediately another person comes and goes like my normal speed is a different value
07:18<andythenorth>V453000: you only have one wagon, and you’re breaking orders, so pot, kettle, eh? :D
07:18<@planetmaker>(speed as in loading speed or cargo decay speed)
07:19<argoneus>my normal speed > your normal speed
07:19<@planetmaker>yes, you're equally bad. Just different ;)
07:19<andythenorth>there already are normalised values for those props
07:19<V453000>that is different :D
07:19<andythenorth>they’re well established
07:19<@planetmaker>andythenorth, are they? Of course there are defaults for the default vehicles. But...
07:20<@planetmaker>anyhow, it's a weak argument of yours :)
07:20<andythenorth>well yes
07:20<andythenorth>so we just leave them out of buy menu and be done with it
07:21<andythenorth>no patch required
07:24<NGC3982>Good friday.
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>good friday was half a year ago
07:30<NGC3982>I wonder why the English language does not use that more often.
07:30<@planetmaker>obviously it was only moderately good to crucify s/o
07:32<andythenorth>forest objects \o/
07:32<andythenorth>nice newgrf :)
07:35<__ln__>can we please start using the words 'overmorrow' and 'ereysterday'?
07:35<@planetmaker>you mean to re-start using them?
07:36<__ln__>that's right
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, "übermorgen" and "vorgestern" are perfectly well established german words...
07:37<@Alberth>as are "overmorgen" en "eergisteren" in Dutch
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>and i always struggle with translating them
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>apparently, english people don't look more than one day ahead or one day in the past
07:39<__ln__>more or less all[*] languages except modern english have such words.
07:39<b_jonas_>Eddi|zuHause: or they use phrases like "Monday week"
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas_: wtf is that supposed to mean?
07:41<andythenorth>a week from the next Monday of course
07:41<andythenorth>English :P
07:41<andythenorth>they’re their there
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>why not just say "next monday" [as opposed to "this monday"], like normal people?
07:43<b_jonas_>a moment, I'm searching for the link explaining this
07:43<b_jonas_>it's apparently regional
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07:44<andythenorth>no no
07:45<andythenorth>next monday is easily conflated
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07:46<b_jonas>Monday week discussion =>
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07:53<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: similar words exist in Japanese as well
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08:04<supermop>good night
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08:05<@planetmaker>g'night Suicyder
08:05<@planetmaker>ups... supermop :)
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08:08<@Alberth> planetmaker: ground tile of the opengfx+landscape tower seems not properly updated, is this newgrf related?
08:09<@Alberth>bottom tower was just placed, the white cursor stays visible, the back tower was placed, and moved out and back into the main display
08:09<@planetmaker>might well be, yes. I recall there's some issue, though I didn't recall there being an issue with normal ground tiles
08:09<@planetmaker>just with steep slopes
08:10<@Alberth>bounding box seems a bit low
08:10<@Alberth>but then you'd expect glitches in the top part
08:11<@planetmaker>the ground definitely has nothing to do with bounding box
08:11<@planetmaker>rather seems like it adds a transparent ground sprite (or none)
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08:13<@planetmaker>he :P Ugly
08:13<@planetmaker>or rather buggy
08:13<@Alberth>I'll make a few issues at the landscape project
08:15<@Alberth>ha, #6695 didn't make its target version :p
08:18<@Alberth>Oh, it already exists as feature #2311
08:20<@planetmaker>seems so :)
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08:20<@planetmaker>he, Alberth did forget to open one irc window :P
08:21<@Alberth>only one?
08:21<@Alberth>three, I think :p
08:21<@planetmaker>I assume several channels per window
08:21<@Alberth>yep :)
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09:00<andythenorth>what does it mean?
09:00<andythenorth>I get these tickets sometimes
09:01<@Alberth>andythenorth: stable isn't updated with new translations?
09:02<andythenorth>I guess I have to release
09:02<andythenorth>wondering if it’s 1.0
09:02<andythenorth>anyone using Termite? Is it 1.0?
09:02<@Alberth>I'll have to fix a few compile errors before I can look
09:03<andythenorth>only German changed since 0.3
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09:03<@Alberth>silversurfer does spanish iirc
09:04<@Alberth>he does indeed
09:04<andythenorth>0.2 release covered that ticket then
09:05<andythenorth>automated translation releases :P
09:05<@Alberth>bananas has 0.3 it seems
09:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: snow CHIPS? o_O
09:06<@Alberth>there are more newgrfs with that problem I think
09:06<@Alberth>santa claus waiting at the station for goods!
09:07<@planetmaker>snow chips, indeed
09:07<andythenorth>I probably have most of the sprites in FIRS already
09:08<@planetmaker>and those tickets mean that the translator is displeased with the release cycle and wants to see his translations released on bananas :)
09:08<@planetmaker>had them, too :P
09:09<andythenorth>bananas should fetch nightlies :P
09:09<andythenorth>maybe not
09:10<andythenorth>planetmaker: how confident are you that you can code the snow? o_O I could start updating sprites...
09:10<@Alberth>it should have a project page "make changeset F00 release 1.2.3"
09:10<@Alberth>it == devzone
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09:14<@planetmaker>andythenorth, in principle it's not difficult to make devzone upload nightly or weekly builds to bananas
09:14<@planetmaker>all tools are there, basically. It just needs some small changes
09:15<andythenorth>we don’t have any way of marking them as ‘non-released'
09:15<andythenorth>or unstable
09:15<@planetmaker>well. The version displayed might.
09:15<@planetmaker>FIRS 1.3.0
09:15<@planetmaker>FIRS v5493 (nightly)
09:15<@planetmaker>or whatever. The (nightly) part currently is not there, but meh
09:16<@planetmaker>as with respect to snow on CHIPS: I didn't yet find time to actually try. But I still believe it's doable
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09:16<@planetmaker>though tbh, I'm still scared of nfo :P
09:16<andythenorth>maybe I do ‘early trains’ for Iron Horse
09:16<andythenorth>and then maglev
09:17<@planetmaker>but I still want to do it. So...
09:17<andythenorth>should the early + maglev be configurable to ‘off’?
09:17<andythenorth>they wil be same for all rosters
09:17<@planetmaker>no, why?
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09:17<andythenorth>1 horse, 1 steam engine, 1 pax maglev, 1 freight maglev
09:17<@planetmaker>don't play early: no early ones there. Don't use maglev: no problem
09:17<andythenorth>I use ‘vehicles never expire’ :D
09:17<andythenorth>oh we have that hide thing now
09:17<@planetmaker>rather than that parameter add purchase list texts :P
09:18<andythenorth>I disagree with purchase texts
09:18<andythenorth>you disagree with my parameter
09:18<andythenorth>we’re even :P
09:19<andythenorth>V453000 is quite wrong though
09:19<@planetmaker>agreed :P
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10:00<andythenorth>so Iron Horse etc have a concept of ‘packaged goods’ which are fast
10:00<andythenorth>so only packaged goods on freight maglev?
10:00<andythenorth>or coal also :P
10:00<@Alberth>packaged goods could be nice
10:01<@Alberth>the problem with not allowing some cargo is that you cannot mix trains on the network easily
10:01<@Alberth>but you can see that as a good thing I guess
10:01<@Alberth>as mass-update to maglev won't work :p
10:03<andythenorth>capsule pipelines
10:03<andythenorth>I see no reason to ban coal etc
10:03<andythenorth>it just gets very boring
10:03<andythenorth>because I’m only providing limited vehicles
10:03*andythenorth absolutely needs to do a pipelines grf :P
10:04<@Alberth>I am still looking for a way to build a multi-cargo transport backbone
10:05<@Alberth>I should probably do something with refitting
10:06<@Alberth>serving industries around the country, ie transport everything it needs and produces
10:06<@Alberth>for all industry kinds
10:06<@Alberth>gets extremely messy when you have more than a few different cargoes
10:07<andythenorth>you lack appropriate vehicles, or appropriate orders? o_O
10:07<@Alberth>vehicles, atm
10:07<andythenorth>IH open wagons refit everything
10:08<@Alberth>should try that one then
10:08<andythenorth>except mail
10:08<andythenorth>IH box vans appear to refit everything
10:08<andythenorth>except pax
10:08<@Alberth>I can live without pax/mail :)
10:09<andythenorth>ok, it’s the open cars that refit everything except pax/mail
10:09<andythenorth>box car more limited
10:09<andythenorth>2 generations, fastes one is 85mph
10:10<@Alberth>bye bye
10:15<@planetmaker>and come back with snowy sprites ;)
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10:29<Eddi|zuHause>that's only a tiny step before "and don't bother coming back without..."
10:34<@planetmaker>he, lol :) no, that's far from how I meant it
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10:43<@Alberth>perhaps code a simple station builder for NFO in python?
10:43<@Alberth>should be relatively easy to raise the abstraction level, and flexible enough to change as you want
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>a code generator! what a novel idea!
10:45<@Alberth>that would imply you know what your higher level language primitives are :p
10:52<@planetmaker>Alberth, that implies I know how the nfo works. In order to get a fundamental grasp I agreed to try add some snow sprites :)
10:52<@Alberth>fair enough :)
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>but if there's a hole in the bucket...
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11:01<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you had somewhere a snowy version for something in chips. can you link me to it again, please?
11:02<andythenorth>will require handling the cargo states, so it’s probably one of the more complex cases
11:02<andythenorth>the other complex case is randomisation of buildings / vehicles on a tile
11:02<andythenorth>but both should just be a single varaction 2
11:02<andythenorth>in the graphics chain
11:02<@planetmaker>ok, so that's not yet coded that png?
11:02<andythenorth>nope :)
11:02<andythenorth>old FIRS used to have nfo snow support, how hard can it be for stations? :x
11:03<@planetmaker>not much more difficult. but stations being stations being stations being nfo :P
11:03<@planetmaker>and had I pulled I would have seen that commit with it :)
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11:19<@peter1138>Stations, woo!
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11:24<andythenorth>or tubes
11:25<andythenorth>capsule pipelines
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11:30<andythenorth>so what’s boring about maglev then peter1138 ?
11:30<andythenorth>or generally
11:31<@peter1138>Trying to figure out which track bits are placed is boring.
11:34<andythenorth>oh yeah
11:34<andythenorth>I remember that
11:34<andythenorth>and maglev is ugly also
11:35<@peter1138>Maybe I'll make a test-GRF one day, for the GRF-provides-all-track-combinations patch.
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11:36<@peter1138>The patch that pikka wanted.
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11:36<andythenorth>what does it do o_O
11:40<andythenorth>really :o
11:40<andythenorth>yet another fucking cost thread?
11:40<andythenorth>cost / payment /s
11:40<andythenorth>days after the last one
11:41<@peter1138>Er, it... lets the GRF provide all track combinations... er...
11:41<@peter1138>Instead of combining different pieces for junctions.
11:46<andythenorth>oh that yeah
11:46<andythenorth>so no more janky crossings
11:47<@peter1138>I suspect it would be useful for 4x tiles.
11:47<@peter1138>There's still the problem that | and - track is distorted.
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11:58<andythenorth>there’s also the problem that / and \ views in Squid are longer than the – views
11:58<andythenorth>problems everywhere
11:58<@planetmaker>nfo is meh. Did I say so already?
12:04<andythenorth>that happens
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>turn it into m4nfo :)
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12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27065 trunk/src/lang/danish.txt (2014-11-21 17:45:16 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>danish - 18 changes by manframe
12:45<andythenorth>pipelines are a faff to signal
12:45<andythenorth>and take a lot of space
12:45<andythenorth>they’d be better as trams
12:46<andythenorth>or we could go mad, and add a new transport type :o
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>hmm... my mouse battery is emtpy. but if i get up now to replace it, the cat will demand food
12:49<andythenorth>so give it food? :)
12:49<andythenorth>that’s how it works with children
12:49<andythenorth>except when it’s the wrong time
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12:50<Eddi|zuHause>i always said it'd be better as roadtype
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>but there's nothing really speaking against a new transport type for pipes/cablecars/skilifts etc.
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>... rollercoasters :p
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12:54<@planetmaker>from rollercoaster import *
12:54<andythenorth>apart from coding it...
12:55<andythenorth>but the game is kind of done
12:55<andythenorth>so what next eh?
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's like in faust, as soon as you say "this is finished, it should stay this way", the devil will come and claim his part of the deal
12:56<andythenorth>I didn’t know that was from faust :)
12:56<andythenorth>but the sentiment is good
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12:56<Eddi|zuHause>well you probably didn't read faust in school :p
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13:03<andythenorth>not so much
13:03<andythenorth>so bi-directional transport on a single tile
13:03<andythenorth>discrete packets
13:03<andythenorth>are junctions allowed?
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13:20<Eddi|zuHause>junctions can only be at "pumping" stations
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13:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how much follows from what we already have?
13:22<andythenorth>we keep orders etc?
13:22<andythenorth>pumping stations ~= waypoints?
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>pumping stations are more like depots, they create and disband vehicles
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>but they also load cargo onto those vehicles
13:29<andythenorth>and do we have stations?
13:29*andythenorth assumes not
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>but this creates a gui problem
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13:32<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, once you connected two pumping stations, they act sort of like a train, one side issues a "wagon" depending on how far along the consist you are, and the other side consumes it or sends it back
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>the number of vehicles in the consist defines how often the pumping station pumps and how fast it goes
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>up to a capacity
13:34<andythenorth>so this would need designed + build from ground up, rather than a hack on trains?
13:34<@Alberth>just use pumpstations at every tile?
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: offers no advantage
13:35<@Alberth>more capacity, since travel time of the vehicle is shorter
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13:36<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: if they act like a depot, the vehicle must travel through the entire pumping station tile
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13:37<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: in any case, it's no different than station walking/teleporting
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>plus maintenance costs will go through the roof
13:39<andythenorth>so it shouldn’t be too easy to do ultimate transport type...
13:39<andythenorth>with current PIPE grf, it has two limitations
13:39<andythenorth>it has crappy signal sprites, which are hard to see (bad limitation)
13:40<andythenorth>it takes a ful tile for one direction (neither good nor bad limitation)
13:40<andythenorth>full *
13:40<andythenorth>so routing pipelines takes thought
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>current PIPE grf has it completely wrong. pipes are not fast
13:40<andythenorth>but the signal faff is just yak-shaving
13:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: wrong against reality, but works in game
13:40<andythenorth>implementation is ugh, result is ok
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>pipe "vehicles" have no speed, they move forward every time the pumping station issues a new vehicle
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>which may depend on loading speed
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>this will make things terrible for low throughput links
13:44<andythenorth>ha yes
13:47<andythenorth>what’s the movement like?
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13:50<Eddi|zuHause>same as train wagons, only that the engine is not at the beginning
13:51<andythenorth>are vehicles represented?
13:51*andythenorth assumes so
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes, cablecars etc. would need representing
13:51<andythenorth>one direction per tile, or bi-directional?
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>newgrf can choose to make transparent sprites
13:52*andythenorth trying to work out if a vertical offset is possible
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>same way as elevated trams/subways, or flexible bridges
13:53<andythenorth>elevated trams are crap
13:53<andythenorth>they hit catenary
13:53<andythenorth>they hit bridges
13:53<andythenorth>they hit tunnels
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>cable cars or power lines could kinda use elevation
13:54<andythenorth>it ought to be a full height level, baked in, not a hack by pushing sprites upwards
13:54<andythenorth>dunno if that’s possible though
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>it needs implementing
13:55<andythenorth>any restrictions on crossing other transport types?
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>what speaks against underground/elevated tram is the connector pieces with normal tram
13:55<andythenorth>also is there a bridge concept? Can it cross own route orthogonally
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: not on same level
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>bridge would be a replacement for an elevation concept
13:56<andythenorth>needs a spec :)
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>if you have elevation, you don't need bridges
13:56<andythenorth>if you have elevation, tunnels are game-over?
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>tunnel=negative elevation
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>or, to start a tunnel, elevation must first be lowered to 0
13:59<andythenorth>we could also have elevation -1?
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>save for a real underground mode, it's the only useful way to get subways
14:01<andythenorth>how would the tile above show the underground route?
14:01<andythenorth>not doing that would suck for various reasons
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>for subways, maybe cut out sections of the road, so it shines through (like transparency)
14:03<@Alberth>we'll add a "transparent tile" tool, like dynamite, but it makes the land transparent :p
14:19<andythenorth>so is it done yet? o_O
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14:28<dasy2k1>hi all looking in the source code at the moment to find which file controls the settings gui. the obvious choice of settings_gui.cpp turned out to be the file for the game options gui
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14:30<dasy2k1>trawled through all the other likley contenders but no luck there either
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>settings_gui is for the display, table/settings.ini is for what settings there are
14:31<@Alberth>what settings?
14:32<andythenorth>quak quak
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>maybe look at revisions that add a setting to get more feeling for it
14:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what is this new transport type called?
14:33<dasy2k1>possibly. the settings window im after is what used to be called the advanced settings
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise, give more details about what you're trying to do
14:34<dasy2k1>I want to see how the expantion of groups with +- buttons is done with the view to making the vehicle groups gui collapsable with nested groups
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>oh. maybe try widget/tree_widget.h
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14:37<@Alberth>dasy2k1: SettingsPage and SettingsContainer have fold/unfold
14:37<dasy2k1>hmm Eddi|zuHause looks like tree_widget is for trees that grow not trees of lists
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>possible. i try to stay away from gui as far as possible :p
14:39<@Alberth>clicking the close button is an adventure :)
14:40<dasy2k1>sorry Alberth where are SettingsPage and SettingsContainer located?
14:41<@Alberth>SettingEntry <-- sorry, that's the basic elementI think, settings_gui.cpp line 745
14:41<@Alberth>SettingsPage is below it
14:42<@Alberth>line 805
14:43<@Alberth>but I can see the use of a template if you want to copy the code
14:44<@Alberth>or pehaps a base class
14:44<dasy2k1>ahh ok (i admit that this is my first foray into the code itself, all i have done before is tweak newgrf code around)
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i meant gui code, not using gui :p
14:45<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: :D
14:46<@Alberth>dasy2k1: you may want to have a look at a previous version first, before the filters were added
14:47<dasy2k1>hmm looking at the way it works is might be better to use the folding from the cargo waiting display in a station rather than from settings
14:48<dasy2k1>Alberth: can you suggest a version?
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14:51<dasy2k1>hi Wolf01
14:51<@Alberth>r24329 or r24411 or so
14:52<@Alberth>hi hi
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14:56<frosch123>meh, so much spam today
14:56<Wolf01>bah, too many brand new pieces on the last lego set... I can't rebuild it on LDD
14:56<frosch123>V453000: whatever, the allow_attach callback is evaluated by autoreplace. it would be terrible if a vehicle set would allow autoreplace to make a train crappy
15:02<dasy2k1>hmm the bit i was looking to reuse is not there that far back... looks to me at the moment that the code that could be reused somewhat is in station_gui.cpp at around like 1300
15:04<andythenorth>does NUTS allow station refit?
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes, cargodist was added later than the settings filters
15:05*andythenorth ponders
15:05<andythenorth>so maglev, or not?
15:05<andythenorth>in Iron Horse
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>so you can't find settings_gui without filters and station_gui with tree view in the same revision
15:05<andythenorth>currently nothing new after year 2000
15:05<andythenorth>which doesn’t bother me
15:06<andythenorth>because I’m playing 1900-2000
15:06<andythenorth>but eh
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: point people to other maglev sets
15:06<andythenorth>I’d kind of like to do a nice treatment of futuristic trains
15:06<andythenorth>just a few
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>or make a "iron maglev" set
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>range 2000-2100, similar vehicle development
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15:08<andythenorth>dunno if I have enough motivation though
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>or do something crazy: make a monorail set :p
15:09<andythenorth>dan wants to do that
15:09<andythenorth>but not futuristic
15:09<dasy2k1>thanks everyone , real life calls at the moment but i may be back later
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>my brain always wants to parse your name as "das" "y2k" and has a leftover "1"
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15:18<Wolf01> :o
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15:20<dasy2k1>Eddi|zuHause: yeh you want to prounce it more or lest correctly then, its das y2k1 not daisy2k1
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15:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so name for this transport type?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not in the naming business
15:46<andythenorth>well what is it, conceptually?
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>something that covers pipes, conveyor belts, cable cars, power lines, ...
15:49<andythenorth>point to point
15:54<frosch123>sounds like factorio
15:56<andythenorth>might just be ‘conveyor'
15:58<argoneus>why is postapocalyptic used when referring to a nuked world?
15:58<argoneus>I thought apocalypse was end of the world due to some prophecy
15:59<frosch123>yes, but apocalypsis does not mean supernove
16:00<frosch123>thus there must be some other reason
16:00<argoneus>on a related note
16:00<argoneus>nukes are scary things ._.
16:00<frosch123>so there are various types of apocalypsis novels: zombies, viruses, comets, nukes, stupidity, ...
16:01<argoneus>to think that there are countries in the world today
16:01<argoneus>who could singlehandedly destroy all life in a matter of hours
16:01<frosch123>you are too young
16:01<argoneus>was this a real threat during the cold war?
16:02<argoneus>I thought the cold war was mostly an economical conflict
16:02<frosch123>in cold war cccr had way more nucear weapons than us afaik
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>the greek-derived word "apokalypsis" means "reveal"
16:02<frosch123>us was confident with having enough weapons to destroy earth
16:02<argoneus>(also please stop me before it gets "political" again, I do not seek a ban)
16:02<frosch123>while cccr had enough to destroy it like 500 times
16:02<argoneus>than US, not us
16:03<argoneus>soviet engineering :D
16:03<frosch123>yeah, sorry :)
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>in christian belief systems, "apokalypsis" means the end of the world as we know it
16:03<frosch123>anyway, it proves the point that it does not matter whether you have enough to destroy earth
16:03<frosch123>you just need bigger numbers than the others
16:03<argoneus>so the reason why there hasn't been an open nuclear war
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>in science fiction literature, it is usually derived as "some cataclysmic event that destroys most of civilization"
16:04<argoneus>is among others the fact that countries don't know how many nukes another country has?
16:04<argoneus>and doesn't want to suicide?
16:04<frosch123>no, the reason that there is no war is that there is no point in war
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>the cataclysm is usually man-made, but not always
16:04<argoneus>there was never point in war
16:04<argoneus>but people are greedy by nature
16:04<frosch123>there were many reasons for war before ww1
16:04<argoneus>most huge wars didn't start by "we declare world war"
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>there have been lots of points in war
16:04<argoneus>they started by small petty conflicts
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>war has been the primary driver of technological development
16:05<argoneus>see: assassination of a guy, a shootout on polish borders
16:05<frosch123>only ww1 and ww2 pointed out that there is no gain in fighting anyone who is not dramatically weaker
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: that's how they started, not why they were started
16:05<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: oh, as in
16:05<argoneus>these two were the last drop?
16:06<frosch123>yes, because they both ended with noone really winning
16:06<frosch123>but everyone being a lot weaker than before
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>besides, there was a whole month between "a guy being assassinated" and actual war starting
16:07<argoneus>I don't know why, but I find WW1 to be worse than WW2
16:07<argoneus>it just felt... darker...
16:07<frosch123>except maybe US, who likely came out stronger out of ww2
16:07<argoneus>presumably even chemical weapons were used and new things were being tested
16:07<argoneus>it's creepy in a way
16:08<dasy2k1>and when will historians agree on the start date for ww3, we are not quite there yet but if current trends continue i can see kids in 2150 learning that the chain of events that led to ww3 starting started in 2001 with it becomming a world war by around 2020
16:08<frosch123>yes, ww1 is somewhat weird because of the silly things it was started for
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>WW1 is probably "worst" in the case of "senseless dying with no motion in any direction"
16:08<frosch123>ww2 otoh was started for reasons still popular in today's fiction
16:08<argoneus>oh Eddi|zuHause
16:08<argoneus>I read somewhere
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>WW2 however "wins" in terms of atrocities committed
16:09<argoneus>that the troops in the trenches got together and drank tea
16:09<frosch123>i doubt that
16:09<argoneus>that no one really wanted to fight
16:09<frosch123>if at all, they drank alcohol
16:10<frosch123>but yes, there are stories about shared christmas parties of local groups
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>there are studies that a large part of soldiers never actually fired their guns
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>this applies to most wars, actually
16:11<argoneus>I'd imagine the common 18 year old doesn't know why he should shoot other 18 yo's
16:11<dasy2k1>it wasn’t the universal Christmas truce that people talk about now but there were small areas where there was a cease in hostiliies for the day, mainly used to bury the dead
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16:12<frosch123>argoneus: you are underestimating the effects of social expectations
16:12<frosch123>99% of humans do what the nearby humans expect them to do
16:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the US spent a lot of time post-WW2 and post-Vietnam training soldiers to actually shoot
16:12<andythenorth>dunno how that goes
16:12<dasy2k1>the main motivation was shoot them or be shot by your own officer for disobeying orders/cowadace
16:13<argoneus>was it same for the officer?
16:13<argoneus>or was the officer brainwashed with ideals
16:13<andythenorth>frosch123: the disparity between USSR and USA wasn’t that great
16:13<andythenorth>depending on what year you choose ....
16:14<dasy2k1>argoneus: pretty much but the officer would be removed from duty, court martialed totally discraced and then exicuted
16:14<andythenorth>the russians also have that doomsday device, which allegedly the USA don’t
16:14<frosch123>andythenorth: ok, i thought the west was actually really weak in repect to numbers
16:15<andythenorth>the USA had a huge stockpile
16:15<andythenorth>playing catch up is thought to be one reason for USSR collapse
16:15<dasy2k1>aaui the ussr had more numbers of nukes but the usa had more powerful nukes
16:15<andythenorth>you can see (for example) why in 1968 Soviets might feel a huge threat from USA
16:16<andythenorth>and more so if you use the polar projection map that Soviet leaders are alleged to use
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16:16<andythenorth>which shows USSR encircled by nuclear-armed enemies who can lob missiles into russia easily
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>the race between USSR and USA was never fair to begin with, because the USA were not scarred by war
16:17<argoneus>talking about that
16:17<argoneus>is it just me, or were the japanese even more inhumane than the germans?
16:17<argoneus>I read an article about two japanese officers making a bet who can kill more (japanese?) civilians in one day with a sword
16:17<argoneus>that's fucked up...
16:17<frosch123>argoneus: chinese, not japanese
16:17<argoneus>oh, chinese
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>japanese atrocities were mainly targeted at the chinese
16:18<frosch123>argoneus: japan killed chinese the way germans killed jews and slavics
16:18<andythenorth>^^^ Russia caught between NATO block and Chinese
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>whereas german atrocities covered large parts of their own population that was not deemed "pure" enough
16:18<frosch123>argoneus: google for rape of nanking or so
16:18<argoneus>I thought they weren't targetting slavs
16:18<argoneus>or rather, in the case of my country, they just occupied it
16:19<andythenorth>tonight is history night :P
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: not slavs per se, but oppositionals, jews which lived in the area, homosexuals, gypsies, ...
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: and slavs were widely used as forced labour
16:20<argoneus>okay, that's true
16:20<argoneus>they used our people and factories to make tanks
16:20<argoneus>and they stole the hulls of our tanks
16:20<argoneus>and put their own guns on it
16:20<frosch123>hmm, i always wondered about the correlation between slavs and slaves, is there any?
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>pre-WWII, the tzech army was widely considered as highly technologically advanced
16:21<argoneus>I guess they did everywhere though
16:21<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: yeah
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>which was probably a major reason for occupation
16:21<argoneus>from what I was taught
16:21<argoneus>well, you know, our country is surrounded by mountains
16:21<argoneus>and people say that germans couldn't break through on land
16:21<argoneus>but the reason we gave up and let them occupy is, is that their airforce was superior
16:21<argoneus>and if we tried to fight, prague would be a grassy plain right now
16:22<argoneus>that's what they teach us at least
16:22<argoneus>but apparently our weapons and tanks were on par, if not better, at the time
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>they didn't teach this part really. it just was a small footnote
16:23<frosch123>the usual brittish war movies tell about uk trying to catch on numbers of aircraft
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>there was peaceful annexation of austria, german-inhabited areas of czechia, and then rest-czechia not-so-peaceful. and then the war started
16:23<frosch123>which they did not succeed on production, but by fighting more efficient or so
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>radar made a huge impact
16:24<frosch123>hmm, right, there was this brittish appeacement thingie
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16:25<andythenorth>frosch123: yes there is a correlation
16:25<andythenorth>I found it last time this came up
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16:25<Eddi|zuHause>the last time i came across that, it was disputed
16:26<frosch123>andythenorth: is it because for english speakers slaves usually came from the east?
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16:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yes, it was weakly evidenced
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: unlikely, as the name is probably older than the english language
16:26<frosch123>i.e. like germany is called by the surrounding nations with the name of the germanic tribe living nearest to them or so
16:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the theory is that Slav -> slave
16:27<andythenorth>rather than the reverse
16:27<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: latin is servus/serva, which sounds like slave
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but that does not quite explain the german word "Sklave"
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>usually consonants disappear over time, rarely they appear
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16:33<frosch123>[22:11] <argoneus> I'd imagine the common 18 year old doesn't know why he should shoot other 18 yo's <- btw. there are many cultures where dying for cultural/social/national reason is an honour
16:34<frosch123>it's no modern-terrorism thing at all
16:34<andythenorth>maybe vactrains
16:34<andythenorth>something futurisms anyway
16:34<andythenorth>monorail smells
16:35<frosch123>argoneus: <- japanese example from ww2
16:35<andythenorth>or a maglev that doesn’t suck
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16:47<mordant>Do Entry/Exit signals ignore block signals between them?
16:48<NGC3982>What a horrible way of war reasoning.
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16:59<Eddi|zuHause>mordant: no
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---Logclosed Sat Nov 22 00:00:08 2014