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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-11-28

---Logopened Fri Nov 28 00:00:16 2014
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04:51<ee>Hello , I think i miss something about Feeder service, I send a train from a farm to a food processing plant, and I want the same train to carry the produced food to the first station to transfer to a truck. I train to transfer all carried food and pickup just wheat and livestock.
04:51<ee>*I want the train
04:53<ee>when i enable transfer, the train "Transfers and Leaves Empty" , i have to choose one of the loading options, but in this case the train picks up the carried food again .
04:54<argoneus>ee: don't you need different wagons?
04:54<Pikkaphone>you'd probably need to be using cargodist for that to work. And/or station refittable wagons.
04:55<Pikkaphone>cargodist would make the transfers happen "magically", without transfer orders. Alternatively, station refitting the food vans would prevent the food being picked back up.
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04:57<ee>Pikkaphone: thanks , how can i do the second option ?
04:58<argoneus>ee: you can give a train refit orders
04:58<argoneus>in a depo
04:59<Pikkaphone>some newgrfs allow refitting in stations too
04:59<ee>refit option is disable in dipot .
04:59<Pikkaphone>the default vehicles don't allow refitting at all
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05:00<ee>you mean i have to use NewGRF ?
05:00<Pikkaphone>so it would only work with a train grf. cargodist might be the better option. :)
05:01<V453000>or just build two separate stations ;)
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05:28<argoneus>does Ruby have anything over Python?
05:29<@Alberth>sanity, the last time I looked
05:29<argoneus>rude :(
05:30<@Alberth>oh, I mean Python has sanity
05:30<argoneus>carry on, then
05:30<@Alberth>Ruby is more exposing low level features, that you use is weird combination to get something done
05:31<argoneus>I thought ruby was more high level
05:31<@Alberth>Python is more user oriented in providing primitves you need
05:32<@Alberth>on the other hand, in Python you also don't get primitives you should not use :)
05:33<@Alberth>eg inline code blocks, like lambdas have been deprecated in Python
05:34<argoneus>it still has things like list comprehension
05:35<argoneus>mylist = [x*x for x in intlist]
05:35<@Alberth>sure, but lamdba x: x*x is not recommended to use
05:35<argoneus>that is an inline code block
05:35<argoneus>there are times where it's useful
05:36<@Alberth>yeah, but also quite limited, and you can still have function objects with a nortmal def
05:36<@Alberth>def f(x): return x* x use f instead of the lambda thing
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>why is that dangerous?
05:37<@Alberth>I don't know what Ruby does with unicode support, Python 3 handles that very nicely now
05:38<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: it's not dangerous, but lambda is an edge case of creating an anonymous function, while a proper function takes just one line extra
05:39<@Alberth>and a proper function can do a lot more than lambda
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05:40<Eddi|zuHause>python 2 is a bit awkward with unicode
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>have to prepend "u" to all strings in your program
05:40<@Alberth>yeah, I'd recommend Python 3 if you want to do unicode stuff
05:41<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: lack of clean separation between text and bytes is a bigger problem imho
05:41<@Alberth>too easy to mess up
05:42<argoneus>you can do b'bla' and it's bytes
05:42<@Alberth>argoneus: sure, but bytes and text are different things, and that's what Python3 does for you
05:43<@Alberth>ie bytes are sequences of 8-bit values, text is a sequence of code points
05:45<@Alberth>and Python 3 won't let you read bytes, and treat it as code points without conversion. Python 2 allowed that which works in the ASCII domain, and horribly fails when you step outside that
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05:49<blathijs>Alberth: Do you have any reference for not recommending lambdas? That's the first time I hear that?
05:49<Jinassi>what about skatcless python, since topic is about python, is there a benefit over 2 or 3?
05:50<@Alberth> Jinassi I don't know stackless python, but if it follows the same versions as cpython, the big advantage is dead vs no-dead, wouldn't it?
05:51<@Alberth>blathijs: 2nd hit on google
05:52<@Alberth> of the BDFL
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05:58<ee>why there is no newer version of cargodist ?
05:58<argoneus>what do you mean?
05:58<argoneus>cargodist is part of the game
05:58<argoneus>it was integrated with 1.4
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>ee: cargodist is in the release version now
05:58<argoneus>you need to turn it on in advanced settings
05:58<Xaroth|Work>< argoneus> it still has things like list comprehension << list/dict comprehension != inlines
05:58<argoneus>Xaroth|Work: it is a function
05:58<Xaroth|Work>it's not
05:58<Xaroth|Work>it's a generator
05:59<ee>oh , so we should not download it from ?
05:59<Xaroth|Work>it's a special use case
05:59<argoneus>ee: nope
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but this is only about the special case of map/filter, not lambda in general
05:59<argoneus>ee: just download the game and you're good
05:59<ee>argoneus: ok , thanks !
05:59<argoneus>ee: you need to enable it in advanced settings, though
05:59<argoneus>it's off by default
06:00<argoneus>Xaroth|Work: a generator is arguably a function
06:00<argoneus>or a procedure rather
06:00<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: Please read the section "Why drop lambda?" in the 2nd link
06:01<ee>argoneus: this game is amazing ! I prefer this game to Simcity4 and Simcity 4 to Simcity 2013 !
06:02<@Alberth>argoneus: a generator is an object with internal state, you can iterate over it
06:02<@Alberth>ee: we know :)
06:03<Xaroth|Work>argoneus: a lambda in python is nothing more than a nested function, guido has explained that dozens of times
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06:03<Xaroth|Work>but the downside is that it promotes bad behavior
06:03<@Alberth>'yield' does a very different thing than 'return'
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: sure, but i feel the argument is rather weak
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06:10<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I can see the point of not having a 2nd form of function objects, for cases like x+1 or x*x, just because CS invented lambda calculation as one form of computing. In particular for people doing anything else than CS. Function objects are confusing enough
06:10<ee>Sorry, How can i enable Cargodist ?
06:10<@Alberth>but you're free to disagree :)
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06:11<@Alberth>ee: Click settings, type "cargodist" in the settings window, I think
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>i can agree that a lot of people are struggling with the concepts of functional languages
06:11<@Alberth>that should give you 3 or so settings you can change
06:11<argoneus>note that "manual" equals "disabled"
06:11<ee>what's the difference between symmetrical and asymmetrical ?
06:11<argoneus>you want either symmetrical or asymmetrical
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>but i disagree with the conclusion of "avoid this"
06:12<@Alberth>function objects are not often needed in an OO language
06:12<argoneus>ee: I'm not exactly sure
06:12<argoneus>I think that if you have two cities
06:12<argoneus>and you set it to asymmetrical
06:12<argoneus>more people want to go from A to B than from B to A
06:12<argoneus>so you transport more in one direction
06:12<@Alberth>ee: symmetrical means you want to have about the same amount of cargo in both directions
06:12<argoneus>but this is just my interpretation and probably wrong
06:13<@Alberth>ee: it works, if supplies are about the same at both ends
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>i use function parameters in my code generator, which is mostly non-
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>only the expression parsing is OO
06:14<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: that sounds like a good use of function objects
06:14<ee>Alberth: what if there are several cities and several cargo trains , and amount of cargo differs between them ?
06:15<ee>I mean there are a lot of cities , how should i choose ?
06:15<argoneus>what you usually want to do instead of overthinking
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: basically i chain a bunch of "apply this processing step onto all entries in the table"
06:15<@Alberth>ee: if you don't care about having equal amount of cargo, play with asymmetrical
06:15<argoneus>is just make lines you like
06:15<argoneus>and turn on cargo lines
06:15<argoneus>and if a line needs more trains, make more
06:15<argoneus>no need to overthink it
06:16<argoneus>unless you are playing with FIRS and need to account for quadruple bonuses
06:16<argoneus>which is a pain in the ass
06:16<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: doesn't sounds like "lambda would be enough :)
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>no, those are usually real functions
06:16<ee>argoneus Alberth thank you ! i am going to choose asymmetrical !
06:16<@Alberth>I think BDFL isn't against function objects, just the lambda
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>lambdas i occasionally use as comparison method for sort()
06:17<argoneus>assymetrical is realisti
06:17<argoneus>cargodist mostly makes sense only for passengers
06:17<argoneus>because cargo is often just A-B
06:17<Jinassi>ee: for some realtime examples, perhaps it would be best to join some multiplayer games and observe other players. If you want I can give you a quick crash course on any reddit servers
06:17<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: that's probably one of the common uses
06:18<ee>Jinassi: Ok ,
06:18<ee>Jinassi: what should i do .
06:18<argoneus>ee: are you using any newgrfs?
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>one place i regularly use lambda is the __repr__ and __str__ methods of classes, where it's just a bit shorter to write
06:18<argoneus>or just standard game
06:19<ee>argoneus: no
06:19<ee>argoneus: i am using standard game
06:19<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: no str.format ?
06:19<argoneus>ee: do you understand how cargodist works?
06:19<argoneus>like, the idea of it?
06:20<argoneus>it really makes sense mostly for passengers
06:20<ee>argoneus: no , just some youtube videos .
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i don't think i used that yet
06:20<argoneus>ee: ah, basically
06:20<argoneus>it tries to simulate real world needs
06:20<argoneus>like, imagine you have a train line between 3 cities with a single train, ok?
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i usually use the % operator
06:21<argoneus>without cargodist, the train goes to city A, loads people, goes to city B, unloads them, picks up new ones, then goes to C, etc, right?
06:21<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: .format is a bit cleaner with tuple arguments, "bla {}".format(t) vs "bla %s" % (t,)
06:21<ee>argoneus: right
06:21<argoneus>ee: well, cargodist makes passengers more sentient
06:21<argoneus>there will be some passengers in A
06:21<argoneus>that will essentially be like
06:21<argoneus>"I want to go to C"
06:21<@Alberth>and you can have names arguments, I think
06:22<argoneus>so the train loads all these people, goes to B
06:22<argoneus>and only unloads like half of them or so, because not everyone wants to go to B, ofc
06:22<argoneus>and then the rest goes to C
06:22<argoneus>and you get money for transferring them A-C
06:22<argoneus>it's like if you take a bus to school or such
06:22<argoneus>you know where you want to go
06:22<ee>argoneus: ok , i got it .
06:22<argoneus>you don't just leave halfway through
06:22<blathijs>Alberth: Thanks for the link - good arguments against lambda :-)
06:22<argoneus>and as a side effect
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yes, but it's not something i bothered learning, let alone changing in old programs
06:22<argoneus>it automatically transfers too
06:23<ee>argoneus: thanks , ill ask questions if i got in trouble ;)
06:23<argoneus>it basically makes cargo (mostly people) not stupid
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06:25<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: changing is not recommended, I changed it in NML, it's a lot of tedious work :)
06:26<@Alberth>and I failed in one case, a "%" function for the user
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>there was a case in another program where i insert data into a printing form, and the % operator got a bit too confusing for my liking
06:27<@Alberth>I typically switch to string replacement in such a case
06:27<Xaroth|Work>%s is not deprecated though, it's just that "{}".format is preferred
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06:30<V453000>so =D time has come ... how do I do CC in 32bpp?
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06:31<Pikkaphone>mask sprites
06:32<V453000>but how are they created?
06:32<V453000>render stuff, put it to greyscale?
06:32<V453000>or 8bpp greyscale?
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: basically you make a second sprite of the same size with just the parts that should be recoloured
06:33<V453000>in 8bpp gray?
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: must be 8bpp, using the right palette entries
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>so the CC-blue or 2nd-CC-green
06:33<V453000>time to fiddle XD thanks
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>with a bit of work you can probably create those from a greyscale
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06:35<V453000>or some palette cut and colour replacement rather
06:35<V453000>I will try that as the first thing
06:36<V453000>..... the alpha should be the colour 00, right? the alpha blue
06:38<V453000>thank you very much :)
06:38<V453000>onwards to mayhem
06:41<@Alberth>/me calls the yeti painters
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07:27<V453000>I think I almost got it Eddi :D
07:27<V453000>it is quite a holy shit but hm :)
07:28<V453000>I dont even want to see how it is going to look XD
07:29<@Alberth>just declare it a bad feature, obviously, one transport company is enough :)
07:30<V453000>I like to recolour shit myself though
07:30<V453000> /problem
07:31<@Alberth>that would count as a problem indeed :)
07:31<V453000>......... the mask can only be one, for BOTH CC1 and CC2, right?
07:31<V453000>not one for CC1 and one for CC2
07:33<@planetmaker>V453000, you have one mask sprite which uses the normal 8bpp DOS palette
07:33<@planetmaker>thus you can use all CC1 and CC2 colours
07:34<@planetmaker>as well as the water cycle or the fire cycle etc
07:34<@planetmaker>or also other colours
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>it should be easy to combine them
07:34<V453000>so I cant have TWO mask sprites for one sprite?
07:34<@planetmaker>no, not
07:34<V453000>alright, that is all I needed to know :)
07:34<@planetmaker>two masks would be kinda stupid
07:35<V453000>sure sure
07:38<argoneus>is the train smoke a sprite?
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>everything is a sprite
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's really not stupid if you come from the generating perspective
07:40<@planetmaker>windows aren't a sprite, usually
07:40<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, it makes some sense. But only if you solve the problem of how they stack
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>argoneus: steam train smoke is like 6 sprites
07:40<V453000>I will handle it, just need to tweak the infrastructure a tiny bit :)
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: they obviously stack in the order they appear in the code (or reverse)
07:41<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, thus stacking needs a sort order for the overlays and how to solve competing information
07:41<@planetmaker>yeah. or whatever sort order is defined etc. Going to be a mess
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think it's messy at all
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>you just stack them on top of each other, and latest non-transparent one wins
07:42<V453000>everything is a mess
07:42<argoneus>yay, z-fighting!
07:43<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, so, and if you recolour it first to green, then to water cycle and last to CC1?
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>that's how sprites generally work
07:43<@planetmaker>do you change the colour effect in that order or just apply the last effect?
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: what? this is about the recolour masks, not the recolour maps
07:44<@planetmaker>it would make a difference
07:44<@planetmaker>masks and maps are the same really
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>not in this context
07:44<@planetmaker>the recolour mask defines the mapping (and the mask itself at the same time)
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>the mask defines which parts of the sprite are recoloured, the map defines which colour is remapped to what
07:44*V453000 leaves the discussion XD
07:45<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, and it's intrinsically linked
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>you're mixing two totally separate contexts
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>there is no link at all
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07:59<supermop>how do i type a copywrite C on windows...
07:59<supermop>cant be bothered to find and insert symbol in PS
08:00<Pikka>alt-0169 iirc
08:01<Pikka>although if you can't be bothered I don't see why anyone else should be
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>get a useful keymap
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>type "(C)"
08:02<supermop>im going to copy one in from illustrator
08:02<supermop>shouldnt be using photshop anyway
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>just use the damn charmap, dude
08:04<Pikka>it is 0169 D;
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: only if you follow my first point :p
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08:10<Eddi|zuHause>"A study in 24 countries tried to find out how well-known Edward Snowden is: Germany 94%, USA 76%, UK: 72%, France 62%, Italy 54%, Kenia 14%"
08:12<@peter1138>Where's Kenia?
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>is that spelled differently?
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'll probably forget that by the next time it comes up :p
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08:20<V453000>oh FUCK :D
08:20<V453000>the mask needs to be mentioned in the template :D
08:20<V453000>well shit :D
08:20<V453000>time to create a new template G_G
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08:33<V453000>FUCK YES
08:33<V453000>it looks terrible so far but it works
08:34<Jinassi>anatomy checks out lol
08:35<maxrules>can i have a dildo train
08:35<V453000>also, openttd WRECKS this texture by its auto-x1-conversion
08:36<V453000>might consider adding manual x1 32bpp sprites
08:37<Jinassi>V453000: image for the dront and the back of the wago is all red?
08:37<Jinassi>of the agon
08:37*Jinassi goes to clean the kb, again
08:37<V453000>it is company colour
08:37<V453000>you can choose the blood colour of your slugs
08:37<V453000>luxury bitches
08:39<V453000>if you come to think about it, openttd is a really violent game
08:40<V453000>makes poor animals not bend, but break into pieces and align to the monstrosity tracks
08:40<@planetmaker>boah. nice slug!
08:40<Jinassi>not counting the mass murdering of passengers
08:41<@planetmaker>V453000, x1 sprites are a good idea, yes. You see with pota-ghat what happens if you don't :)
08:41<V453000>mhm :)
08:42<@planetmaker>if yu have 4x and 1x, then 2x might not be needed though
08:43<V453000>x2 looks good already
08:43<V453000>just x1 is rkt
08:43<V453000>with the ton of varying colours, the chosen ones to x1 just arent nice XD
08:45<V453000>funnily enough the shape of the slug is actually VERY similar to the pixel-art drawn one XD
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08:49<@Alberth>Electric slug :p
08:50<Xaroth|Work>lol @ slug
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09:00<@planetmaker>lol, that slug really is under power. Warning: High voltage. Do not touch. Danger of death
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>i'm going to develop an irrational fear of slugs
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09:48<@planetmaker> <-- should the slugs really be that juicy between the wagons?
09:49-!-engineerwolf is now known as Guest1148
09:49<V453000>still fiddling with that
09:50-!-Guest1148 is now known as engineerwolf
09:52<V453000>something for Eddi to support slugophobia
09:55<V453000>the masks are a bit annoying since I have to render three times but meh :)
09:55<V453000>wurf it
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09:58<@planetmaker>NutZ II: The slug clone wars
10:01<V453000>the worst is yet to com
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>fucking games... why won't they ever just work??
10:01<Jinassi>cobra train?
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13:38<@Alberth>hi hi
13:39<andythenorth>did I miss anything?
13:40<@Alberth>no, afaik
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13:40<@Alberth>oh, you missed slugs
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13:42<@Alberth>V posted a few more nice pictures :)
13:44<V453000>your pants will be browned
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13:44<V453000>compatible wagons in progrez
13:45<Jinassi>will a depot look like a slugs house?
13:45<V453000>XD could
13:45<V453000>good idea Jin
13:46<Jinassi>NUTS is really going to be nuts
13:46<Jinassi>meant in a good way, looking forward to it
13:48<Jinassi>imagine road vehicle sets slug-wise, sliming away on the roads
13:50*andythenorth fetches the salt
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14:26<Eddi|zuHause>Jinassi: you can probably do slime trails with the new vehicle effect callback
14:29<Jinassi>that would be awesome, also having a busy roadline would atleast give it that slimy look, same could be done for heqs(road dmg fx)
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14:32<Eddi|zuHause>hell lol indeed
14:34<andythenorth>HEQS needs roadtypes to justify it
14:34<andythenorth>I should remove HEQS
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14:50<andythenorth>did anyone make a new GS yet? o_O
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14:52<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the cat did?
14:53*andythenorth looks
14:53<andythenorth>‘hide’ was a very nice buy menu feature
14:54<andythenorth>maybe we could convert ‘expire’ to ‘auto-hide’ :P
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16:51<andythenorth>quiet eh?
16:56<Wolf01>a little
17:09*andythenorth watches an incredibly boring train video
17:09<andythenorth>I like trains
17:09<andythenorth>but eh, they can be so boring
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17:10*andythenorth has to close all those YT windows
17:11<Jinassi>watch a documentary about the jet train, really fascinating
17:12<Wolf01>I usually lose my mind on documentaries of old things, such old mechanical calculators or early engines
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17:17<Jinassi> (not the one i said)
17:21*andythenorth released some Road Hog
17:24<Jinassi>another name for a fart?
17:25<Jinassi>i'll see myself out
17:25<Bob9>welp! why can't i refit train cars to carry fruit?
17:26<Bob9>it's gonna rotten if i have to deliver by trucks :(
17:26<NGC3982>Are you playing locally or in multiplayer?
17:26<NGC3982>And what NewGRF's are you using?
17:27<Bob9>a bunch, hold on
17:27<NGC3982>It sounds like FIRS.
17:27<Bob9>FIRS 1.3.0
17:28<Wolf01>which year are you playing, did you eat your vegetables?
17:28<Bob9>i'm in the 1980s
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17:29<Wolf01>interesting video Jinassi
17:29<andythenorth>Bob9: what train set?
17:29<Bob9>using these
17:31<andythenorth>dunno, I thought that ‘ECS & FIRS’ set made original vehicles refit
17:31<andythenorth>never used it
17:32<Bob9>i can refit to all other types of cargo i've tried
17:32<Bob9>but fruit is a no no
17:32<NGC3982>There does not seem to be any relevant parameter either.
17:32<NGC3982>Wait, you can refit a cart to any other cargo?
17:33<NGC3982>You seem to have changed the Universal vehicles parameter.
17:33<NGC3982>That might have something to do with it.
17:33*NGC3982 tries it for himself.
17:33<NGC3982>1980's, temperate map?
17:34<Bob9>i've fiddled around in advanced settings without really knowing what i was doing tbh
17:35<NGC3982>We all have to learn somehow.
17:35<Bob9>tru dat
17:36<Bob9>:D swedish interface
17:37<Bob9>lemme see
17:38<Bob9>universal vehicles was off
17:40<Bob9>cool it works now
17:41<Bob9>just not on my saved game, is there anyway to fix that?
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17:42<NGC3982>I do not think so
17:42<Bob9>thanks though
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19:14<__ln__>meanwhile in amsterdam:
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---Logclosed Sat Nov 29 00:00:18 2014