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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-11-30

---Logopened Sun Nov 30 00:00:19 2014
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04:43<Wolf01>hi hi
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04:55<Wolf01>pfff one submits a MOC of a SDF-1 and the visits of the profile are multiplied by 20
04:59<Alberth>no idea what that means :)
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05:01<Alberth>looks very good :)
05:02<Wolf01>yeah, the picture is the best one I ever made
05:02<Alberth>it comes with building instructions even
05:04<Alberth>your earlier lunch-breaker has very good colour use
05:04<Wolf01>I had only those pieces at the time
05:04<Wolf01>now the office is full of lego :P
05:05<Alberth>the background makes a lot of difference, perhaps
05:06<Wolf01>yes it does, I'm thinking of adding a bg to the old MOCs
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05:51<fixpoint>Hi! I'm trying OpenTTD again after a long break, and I have a question. Am I supposed to use path signals everywhere now?
05:52<V453000>no but noobs will tell you that :)
05:53<V453000>you should use all kinds of signals in the right places
05:53<b_jonas>fixpoint: you can use path signals for most of the places
05:53<b_jonas>but you can still use other signals for some special control
05:53<b_jonas>especially around railway stations
05:53<fixpoint>are there any good guides on what to use where? :) I've built a station and trains get lost around it even though I thought I was pretty explicit with the signals
05:54<b_jonas>fixpoint: you're using a recent version of openttd, right?
05:54<b_jonas>fixpoint: if so, and you can't figure out why your trains get lost, you could try to show screenshots or a savegame so we can help
05:55<b_jonas>or you can look at the openttd wiki (and maybe the openttdcoop wiki) for hints about what signal layouts to use
05:55<b_jonas>but some of the information there is quite old, from before path-based signals
05:57<fixpoint>Yes, the one just downloaded
05:58<fixpoint>Essentially, trains sitting at stations started reserving huge swath of forward tracks - until the next station. Even though I have many signals along the line. I thought PBS reserved track only till the next signal
05:59<fixpoint>Ok, will post a screenshot if can't figure this out :)
05:59<fixpoint>Is there any updated wiki?
06:02<+michi_cc>fixpoint: Just in case you read that somewhere, stations do not have built-in signals. So check for signals after the platforms and their direction (facing the platform).
06:04<fixpoint>Thanks! Discovered that the hard way already :-D
06:05<fixpoint>What kind of implicit signal is there at the depot exit?
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>if there are path signals nearby, the depot also has a path signal, otherwise it's a block entry signal
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>fixpoint: if trains reserve too long stretches of signals, make sure the signals inbetween are turned the right way around, or turn them into one-way signals
06:09<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, iirc it's a combo signal in depots
06:09<@planetmaker>(if not path signal)
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the combo part would never go into effect, since it can never be red to the outside
06:15<b_jonas>about path signals. when a train reverses in a terminus station, does it wait until it can reserve path till the next path signal, and reverses only at that point?
06:15<b_jonas>this may be a stupid question. I don't really understand how signals work.
06:15<Alberth>it turns around, and waits until it can reserve a path
06:15<b_jonas>I see
06:16<b_jonas>is that also what happens if I reverse a train with the reverse button?
06:16<Alberth>b_jonas: you can do simple experiments with these things in OpenTTD itself :)
06:16<Alberth>I would hope so :)
06:17<b_jonas>yeah, I'll try
06:17<b_jonas>as in, in a sandbox game, not in a real game
06:17<Alberth>either make a dummy game, or press 'save' before trying random experiments
06:17<b_jonas>I guess I should turn on that option to show reserved tracks for this
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06:18<Alberth>it helps in understanding path signals
06:18<Alberth>it's barely visible with maglev though
06:18<Alberth>not sure about monorail
06:19<b_jonas>and it's a bit ugly
06:19<b_jonas>so I don't leave it on for normal games
06:19<Alberth>I tend to leave it in whatever position the setting is, I don't care much about aesthetics :)
06:21<b_jonas>I wonder if it could make sense to have half path signals (sort of like pre-signals), which behave like a normal path signal from one direction, but in the other direction trains sort of ignore it, so they have to reserve a path from the previous signal till the next signal through it.
06:23<b_jonas>I mean, the route finder sort of tries to look ahead multiple signals, which sort of helps,
06:23<b_jonas>but I'd still like to have explicit reservations this way.
06:25<b_jonas>It probably wouldn't really solve my train control problems though.
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean? path signals already are ignored from the other side
06:28<b_jonas>I don't know what I want then
06:31<Alberth>it does look ahead, but a signal is an obstacle, so if you add a signal at every tile, you're effectively reducing look ahead
06:36<b_jonas>I don't add a signal at every tile
06:37<b_jonas>that's what openttdcoop does, not what I do
06:37<b_jonas>(and I think even they put a signal only to every other tile
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06:37<Eddi|zuHause>i usually put a signal every 1-1.5 train lengths
06:40<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: yes, that is good because it helps avoid trains getting stuck when they choose to turn back
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06:40<Eddi|zuHause>i disable that
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>usually causes more harm than good
06:41<b_jonas>as for the signal lookahead, my problem is that sometimes it chooses to send a train down a track towards another station because the path is more free that way. that's actually sometimes a good decision because it helps trains get unstuck, but sometimes a wrong decision because the path to the station would get free in just a moment.
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06:42<Eddi|zuHause>that means the path penalties are too close
06:42<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: on long lines I add a few tracks where trains can turn back, mostly as a safeguard against errors when the normal tracks don't work they way I intended them,
06:43<b_jonas>such as when a train chooses to leave a station for servicing in a depot before it has handled the cargo at that station
06:44<b_jonas>in that case the train should turn back at a turn back track early rather than have to go to the other station and back
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, i don't use depots
06:44<Alberth>I build my junctions such that trains can go in all directions
06:45<b_jonas>I try to avoid this by placing the depots before the stations, not after
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>i'd try to avoid this with explicit depot orders
06:46<Alberth>it's a little extra work, but it saves head aches like lost trains, and it can immediately handle new train routes
06:47<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: hmm… that might work
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06:47<b_jonas>do you mean like conditional depot orders?
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>"service at depot"
06:48<b_jonas>wouldn't an unconditional "service at depot" order cause the trian to be serviced too often, wasting too much time?
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>"service" implies "when needs servicing"
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>the other one is "go to depot", where it doesn't check that
06:49<b_jonas>ah, I see
06:49<Alberth>if you use time tables, having a fixed duration is more useful than trying to be as quick as possible
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. like "real time kernel"
06:50<b_jonas>thanks, I might try that
06:50<b_jonas>I don't use time tables
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06:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's usually slower than "desktop" or "default" kernel, but the fixed lengths makes for better predictability and interactivity
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06:54<Alberth>It may even be more effective in the end. You can push a fully deterministic system quite close to 100%, while a system that is quicker but with variations in duration, will fail in that setting
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07:13<andythenorth>also bye
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07:14<argoneus>r u d e
07:16<Alberth>not really, he often visits very briefly, he's probably doing several things at the same time :)
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>and he's probably terrible at staying focused :p
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09:36<Alberth>try #tycoon or so
09:36<Alberth>or an openttd coop channel, perhaps
09:37<edog300>Oh shoot. You're right - wrong channel.
09:37<edog300>forgot the -coop on chan name
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10:10<argoneus>V453000: wait, you play LoL?
10:19<Alberth>of course he does, what's the point of making a NewGRF if you don't play the game?
10:22<argoneus>Alberth: w-wut?
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10:32<Wolf01>Noah also forgot the unicorns
10:32<__ln__>Wolf01: explains why they are so rare
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10:37<V453000>argoneus: why the fuck would I do that?
10:37<V453000>do I look like I am 12 years old or what
10:38<argoneus>V453000: maybe you played it a few years ago?
10:38<Wolf01>the best reaction to that question I've ever seen
10:38<argoneus>I googled your name and things check out
10:38*argoneus shrugs
10:39<V453000>I never ever played league of legends or registered there.
10:41<V453000>I did play heroes of newerth and dota2, yes
10:42<V453000>the general politeness and intelligence of the community made me stay with just watching matches instead however
10:44<argoneus>this is why you play with friends
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10:57<V453000>that doesnt justify anything
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11:43<Quatroking>pocket trains is pretty neat
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11:56<andythenorth>kind of empty
11:56<andythenorth>although I’ve spent half of today playing :P
11:57<b_jonas>what's empty?
11:58<andythenorth>pocket trains
11:58<andythenorth>standard casual game
11:58<b_jonas>I see
11:59<b_jonas>is that something related to that other train game that was mentioned here a lot recently?
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12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27069 trunk/src/lang/bulgarian.txt (2014-11-30 17:45:17 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>bulgarian - 3 changes by pdedinski
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13:13<andythenorth>what, are they modelling actual train breakdowns in real life now?
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13:29<Alberth>I'd be surprised if they didn't
13:30<Alberth>If you want a reliable engine or to optimize your servicing, it's quite vital to know how it breaks in general :)
13:31<Alberth>and how often, of course
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15:43<frosch123>hmm, no drama
15:43<frosch123>can't you shedule dramas for when i am gone?
15:44<Alberth>copy/paste stuff not sufficient? :)
15:45<frosch123>didn't read... damn, i probably shouldn't have asked :/
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15:53<andythenorth>also someone said thanks
15:53<andythenorth>which isn’t said enough, maybe
15:53<frosch123>i replied since noone else did :p
15:53<@peter1138>rainfall river generator?
15:54<andythenorth>ooh a generator
15:54<andythenorth>oh peter1138 beat me :(
15:54<frosch123>oh, you didn't visit the forums? sorry, that i mentioned them :)
15:56<andythenorth>“needs diagonal rivers"
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16:07<andythenorth>so is anyone trying it?
16:08<@planetmaker>andythenorth, did you check rivers from opengfx+landscape?
16:09<andythenorth>I’ve seen them yes
16:09<andythenorth>some time I’ll do an equivalent for TTD base set
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16:33<andythenorth>I am so friggng sick of this issue :)
16:33<andythenorth>first world problem
16:33<andythenorth>second time reported in a couple of weeks
16:33<andythenorth>and it’s being reported against other vehicle sets frequently
16:35<andythenorth>oh it’s a different variation to the one I fixed
16:36<andythenorth>maybe I just disable Iron Horse with ECS
16:37<andythenorth>which of the vectors has tourists?
16:37<andythenorth>and which version do I need to test against?
16:37<andythenorth>George: ? ^
16:38<George>Town vector has tourists.
16:38<andythenorth>thanks :)
16:38<George>You may use the latest version from bananas
16:38<andythenorth>I have 1.1.2
16:38<andythenorth>seems latest
16:38<George>yes, but I havn't uploaded it to bananas
16:39<George>I'm planing to make ECS 2.0 but not this year
16:40<andythenorth>someone has put 1.1.2 on bananas ;)
16:40<andythenorth>anyway, thanks
16:40<George>I have no problem with that
16:41<George>As for issue I think the problem is not with ECS ;)
16:41*andythenorth wonders why nml is not finding tourist cargo to be bitmask(CC_PASSENGERS)
16:41<andythenorth>I thought I was checking cargo label only for PASS, but I already fixed that issue
16:42<George>Sounds strange
16:42<George>TOUR should be express passengers
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16:45<frosch123>maybe you excluded express
16:46<frosch123>and did not exclude pax for the mail fan
16:47<andythenorth>I get a refit, but using the wrong capacity
16:47<andythenorth>hang on, paste is easier
16:48<andythenorth>returns correct value for pax, returns 100 for tourists
16:48<andythenorth>vehicle only refits pax or tourists, refit appears correct
16:48<frosch123>you are checking for exact match
16:48<frosch123>not for bitmasks
16:49<frosch123>do s/cargo_classes/cargo_classed & bitmask(CC_PASSENGERS, CC_MAIL)
16:50<andythenorth>is cargo_classed an obiwan?
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16:51<frosch123>yes :)
16:51<andythenorth>hmm, so an author has to understand AND masks to use this nml feature? o_O
16:52<andythenorth>clearly andythenorth didn’t :P
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17:04<andythenorth>combine car is split over 2 cargo units, pax + express
17:04<andythenorth>which provides 30 pax standard
17:05<andythenorth>but refits to 60 tourists :P
17:08<andythenorth>ach, can’t fix that sensibly
17:09<@planetmaker>explicit refit for cargo label?
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17:10<@planetmaker>quite easy to do
17:11<andythenorth>not without making even more special-cased python classes
17:11<andythenorth>the combine car is already ugly special case type checking
17:11<andythenorth>maybe I can do it only by extending current ugly :P
17:11<andythenorth>and not adding new ugly
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---Logclosed Mon Dec 01 00:00:21 2014