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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-12-05

---Logopened Fri Dec 05 00:00:27 2014
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05:45<argoneus>hi dreck
05:45<dreck>hows you?
05:45<argoneus>is ok
05:45<dreck>doing ok so far
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05:51<dreck>whats new gamewise with you anyway?
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10:00<dihedral>i heard planetmaker wanted to host the next release party...?
10:02<V453000>nonsense, nobody would ever go to germany to any party
10:03<dihedral>let's all visit belugas... he could eventually have more time for developing again if we did that :-P
10:03<V453000>if you imprison him perhaps I figure
10:05<dihedral>don't do that. endangered species and stuff, you know?
10:16<@Belugas>plus, the guy bites!
10:17<@Belugas>and he can even burn you with his cigarets!
10:24<dihedral>Bad Belugas, Baaad
10:24<dihedral>go back to your basket ;-)
10:24*dihedral chuckles
10:25<@Belugas>i'll drink to that ;)
10:25<dihedral>cheers ;-)
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11:28<jjavaholic>I have a problem where broken down coal vans play an effect on production effecting production
11:29<jjavaholic>I thought creating one way roads would provide for this
11:29<@Rubidium>bonjour Belugas ;)
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11:39<@Belugas>salut Rubidium, noble seigneur du OpenTTD :)
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11:46<Xaroth|Work>o/ Belugas
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11:56<@Belugas>yo Xaroth :) I'm working as well!!
11:56<@Belugas>althoug cannot say it's very productive...
11:56<@Belugas>christmas office party has already started
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11:59<@Alberth>2 weeks party? :)
12:02<@Alberth>those termites make expensive tracks :)
12:03<@Belugas>i wish party could go on for 2 weeks lol!
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12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27074 trunk/src/lang/japanese.txt (2014-12-05 17:45:14 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>japanese - 16 changes by guppy
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13:00<@Alberth>andy, a little close together :) it's a different economy than #6671, should I report it?
13:04<andythenorth>nah looks legit to me
13:04<andythenorth>I run trucks
13:04<andythenorth>call it “realism"
13:05<@Alberth>I was trying to run truck too, but I have none :)
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13:05<andythenorth>no road hog?
13:05<@Alberth>no :(
13:06<andythenorth>add it to your running game
13:06<andythenorth>will be fine
13:06<@Alberth>maybe I should start again
13:06<andythenorth>just add the grf :P
13:06<andythenorth>unless you have already built default RVs
13:06<andythenorth>road hog is getting almost nice
13:06<@Alberth>termite tracks is expensive :)
13:07<@Alberth>can be good though
13:13<andythenorth>I never looked at the costs
13:13<andythenorth>could adjust...
13:13<@Alberth>nah :)
13:14<@Alberth>running cost of iron horse is higher, so it kills your profit quickly if you're not careful
13:14<@Alberth>making 20k pound / year makes for very slow building
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13:22<andythenorth>Alberth: out of interest, what cost settings for your game?
13:23<@Alberth>where is that?
13:24<@Alberth> Hellsdrecht Transport, 1878-01-02.sav
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13:25<@Alberth>The real money maker is at Bobonisse
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14:07<@Alberth>wouldn't it be useful if FIRS would use the climate selection for "basic eceonomy"
14:07<@Alberth>it's a bit weird to play basic arctic economy in temperate climate :p
14:09<@planetmaker>hi ho
14:09<@planetmaker>Alberth, yes, that'd make sense. It'd also make sense to make 'basic economy' the default
14:09<@planetmaker>where selection allows to choose any economy in every climate
14:10<@planetmaker>though with basic default... can be argued most people won't find complete then
14:12<andythenorth>action 14 has no way to figure out what climate is in use
14:12<andythenorth>because it’s not chosen yet when setting newgrf params
14:12<andythenorth>and action 14 is static anyway :)
14:12<@Alberth>just make an option "basic economy"
14:12<@planetmaker>no. But there could be 'default' for economy selection. And that would turn out one or the other economy
14:12<andythenorth>so ‘basic - auto’
14:13<@Alberth>"basic" means different things when you change climate
14:13<@Alberth>just like the original baseset
14:13<@Alberth>gameplay between climates is really different
14:13<andythenorth>I have no strong feelings either way
14:13<@planetmaker>yeah... auto economy basically
14:14<@Alberth>maybe "basic climate dependent econommy" ?
14:14<andythenorth>I wonder if it’s just one line of python per industry
14:14<andythenorth>might be
14:14<@Alberth>ie give a hint it might change when you dare touching the climate selection :p
14:15<andythenorth>I dunno, the whole parameter setting UI is unlovable
14:15<andythenorth>but I don’t want to unpick that
14:15<@planetmaker>it wouldn't even be a change to any industry, I think, andythenorth
14:15<@planetmaker>just in the parameter treatment
14:15<andythenorth>oh maybe
14:15<andythenorth>if there’s a layer of indirection
14:15<andythenorth>MIght Just Work tm
14:15<andythenorth>Might *
14:15<andythenorth>and ™
14:16<@Alberth>oh, and as pm says, basic as default would be lovely
14:16<andythenorth>hitting people with Full FIRS is stupid
14:16<andythenorth>there are some other changes I wanted to do in FIRS
14:16<andythenorth>new sprites and such
14:17<andythenorth>but developing on FIRS is slow
14:17<andythenorth>and I have Squid, Road Hog, Termite, Iron Horse....
14:17<andythenorth>snow for CHIPS o_O
14:17<@Alberth>one commit / day :)
14:17<frosch123>hmm, i wanted to add the economy parameters...
14:17<andythenorth>I have been considering adding just different flavours of supplies
14:17<andythenorth>FIRS has tried to find ‘ultimate’ supplies behaviour, but I don’t think there is one
14:18<@Alberth>sounds useful
14:18<andythenorth>and if there was, it would get boring
14:18<@Alberth>it makes it useful to use all supplies
14:18<andythenorth>so maybe 2 or 3 different behaviours
14:18<andythenorth>I would like primary production to use the industry production multiplier var
14:18<@Alberth>multiply production by 2 if you deliver a type of supplies :p
14:19<andythenorth>frosch123: you have some bee in your bonnet about smooth economy, I recall?
14:23*andythenorth plays Alberth’s savegame
14:23<andythenorth>the P&L window would be more useful if it grouped cost & income per transport type imo
14:24<andythenorth>‘not realistic’ :P
14:24<andythenorth>scrap metal train makes a lot of profit, eh?
14:24<@Alberth>it's a long distance
14:24<@Alberth>and a flat terrain
14:24<andythenorth>you could narrow gauge at Hilwijk
14:25<@Alberth>moving the stuff up the hill is very expensive
14:25<andythenorth>for that iron ore mine -> mill
14:25<andythenorth>ha ha weight multiplier 8 :)
14:25<andythenorth>I used to use 6 because NARS said so
14:25<andythenorth>now I use 1
14:25<frosch123>andythenorth: you mean the built-in smooth economy?
14:26<andythenorth>frosch123: yes
14:26<andythenorth>before I go doing anything with FIRS production monthly change
14:26<@Alberth>oh, I started anew with an up-to-date road-hog, which also gives nice trams
14:26<andythenorth>yeah trams galore
14:27<frosch123>it randomises the production of every industry every month, which is bad for multiple reasons
14:27<frosch123>for once there are way too many news items
14:27<frosch123>seconds: the production changes so often, that any randomisation averages out
14:28<andythenorth>it’s a user choice though?
14:28<frosch123>it would be way easier and more transparent to the player, if the production would just lineary increase, instead of randomness which is not really random
14:28<andythenorth>or I could just have FIRS listen to random prod change?
14:28<andythenorth>I want a variant where industry production is ‘prod multipler + supplies boost'
14:29<andythenorth>which current code blocks, but isn’t conceptually hard at all
14:29<frosch123>i think many industry sets try to make random changes, which only make things complicated to balance, but do not actually achieve any gameplay relevance
14:29<andythenorth>I would rather delegate to ottd, except for boost behaviour
14:29<frosch123>so, either production should change via fixed rules, without any randomness
14:29<frosch123>or randomness should be rare, so it is actually random: i.e. only few industries, but big impact
14:30*andythenorth forms ideas for FIRS 1.4.x
14:30<andythenorth>or maybe FIRS 2.x
14:30<@Alberth>sounds useful
14:30<andythenorth>I could use some help tbh :P
14:30<frosch123>other than that, i don't like changing production over time
14:30<andythenorth>I have bitten off more than I can chew on newgrfs again
14:30<andythenorth>maybe it’s time for a 2.x branch
14:31<frosch123>while i have no idea how current yeti works, i think i gave V the initial code for the type of behaviour i currently like
14:31<@Alberth>would be useful if GS can set a policy for industry production changes, probably
14:31<frosch123>basically making output depend on amount supplied, but in a sub-linear way
14:31<frosch123>no randomness at all
14:31<andythenorth>so FIRS is linear, but too much so
14:31<@Alberth>yeah, I liked the non-instant delivery of output too
14:32<frosch123>giving the player the freedom to deliver as much as they want
14:32<frosch123>but at the same time offering some benefit to deliver multiple industries
14:33<andythenorth>so FIRS 2.x
14:34<andythenorth>- more supply behaviour / production options
14:34<andythenorth>- change which economy is default
14:34<andythenorth>- automatic ‘basic’ economies
14:34<andythenorth>- there’s some request about allowing primary industry closure or such
14:34<andythenorth>I dunno
14:35<andythenorth>I am -1 on parameters as first design choice for everything
14:35<andythenorth>but +1 on offering options that turn out to be reasonable
14:35<frosch123>i don't see any gameplay reason for closing industries :)
14:36<frosch123>it's hard to balance on huge maps: you may not close unserviced industries or vast areas will be deserted
14:36<frosch123>and players complain if you close serviced ones
14:36<frosch123>so, you can never close them :p
14:37<andythenorth>certainly there’s no newgrf way to do it
14:37<frosch123>hmm, idea: close processing industries which accept multiple cargos, if they are only delivered one cargo type over 5 years
14:37<andythenorth>only to listen to what ottd wants
14:37<frosch123>so, if players service industries, they must service all input cargos
14:38<andythenorth>quite hard
14:38<andythenorth>often a needed source is a long way away
14:38<frosch123>it's somewhat more harsh than the production bonus for delivering multiple types :p
14:38<andythenorth>it would be hurt-me-plenty mode
14:38<frosch123>same could be done for primary ones
14:38<frosch123>they start with a stockpile of supplies for 5 years
14:39<frosch123>supplies only deplete if the industry is actually serviced
14:39<andythenorth>is that what ECS does?
14:39<frosch123>it's somewhat like the old pbi mine depletion, but with an option for the player to elongate it infinitely
14:39<andythenorth>currently supplies can be too volatile
14:40<frosch123>andythenorth: no, in PBI you can do nothing, except disable the feature
14:40<andythenorth>ECS or PBI?
14:40<frosch123>and in ECS industries even close when the towns grow, since raw industrie are not allowed inside cities or so
14:41<frosch123>andythenorth: well, closure is tricky for sure, esp. if you leave the game unobserved, e.g on a public server
14:42<frosch123>so, maybe the reduction of output is more fair :)
14:42<andythenorth>I never use it, never want it
14:42<andythenorth>I find the closure concept tedious
14:42<andythenorth>maybe bad experiences in 1995 :P
14:42<@Alberth>ECS mines have an estimated remaining amount to deliver
14:42<andythenorth>always, just building a huge rail line, then the industry closes
14:42<frosch123>still, i kind of like that primary industries would start with high production, and lower production over time unless they get supplies
14:42<frosch123>that gives a quicker game start
14:42<@Alberth>but they tend to find new resources for some time after that
14:43<andythenorth>I would rather see industry initial production spread over higher range
14:43<frosch123>you can transport lots in the beginning without worrying about supplies
14:43<frosch123>but still have to do them in the long run
14:43<@planetmaker>interesting concept
14:43<andythenorth>2.x branch
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14:43<andythenorth>try some things
14:43<@Alberth>sounds like non-manual industries :p
14:43<andythenorth>you all have commit rights :)
14:44<andythenorth>2.x-dev branch :P
14:44<andythenorth>if it’s rubbish we won’t cherry-pick the commits in
14:44<frosch123>well, you can always make a setting to select from 123 different economy mechanics :p
14:45<frosch123>they don't need to be good in that case :p
14:45<andythenorth>yes, I am a fan of that approach
14:45<andythenorth>99 choices
14:45<andythenorth>none of them good
14:46<andythenorth>I never play Full FIRS anymore
14:46<andythenorth>the other economies all have an easy source of supplies (ports)
14:46<andythenorth>which makes the game *much* more fun
14:46<andythenorth>much less yak-shaving
14:48<@planetmaker>yes... the full economy is too convoluted for me to play it. I don't have the patience (anymore) :P
14:50<andythenorth>I could remove it….pikka style
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14:52<@planetmaker>there's not much point in removing it, I think. It's there and people enjoy it
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14:53<Wolf01>hi hi
14:53<V453000>just make something better andy and eventually make it default :P
14:53<V453000>much better than removing
14:54<V453000>frosch123: I believe the industry mechanism of YETI is still quite similar ... it was always linear though :P
14:55<V453000>but, YETI motivates the player to connect EVERY kind of cargo so much, that the non-linear approach isnt really necessary
14:55<V453000>the 9 primaries alone are quite a lot already, considering the worker yards connected to them, not to mention secondaries :)
14:56<V453000>interesting idea about having a starting-boost
14:59<@Alberth>hmm, electrified tram tracks with steam trams :p
14:59<frosch123>V453000: sub-linear would give you more production when using multiple secondary (of same type)
14:59<andythenorth>maybe INFIRS
14:59<andythenorth>It’s Not FIRS
14:59<frosch123>instead of one secondary per type
14:59<andythenorth>remove all the things
14:59<V453000>I know frosch123, still considering it
15:00<V453000>andythenorth: if you want to make a good working industry set, start with a scheme
15:00<andythenorth>I have never made one before
15:00<andythenorth>it’s good advice
15:00<frosch123>[20:56] <V453000> interesting idea about having a starting-boost <- i thought it was too realistic :p
15:00<frosch123>catching transport economy with cheap starter conditions
15:00<V453000>well the wtf is that in the start you have the weakest engines XD
15:00<frosch123>and then turn the screw
15:01<frosch123>V453000: oh, with "start" i meant the "start of industry being serviced", not "start of game"
15:01<V453000>andythenorth: the scheme says everything systematic, precise production numbers etc can be done later, but scheme must go first as changing that later is hell - as you can see with FIRS now
15:01<frosch123>so, also later in the game you would get a boost for servicing a new industries
15:01<V453000>still :D
15:02<andythenorth>V453000: you think FIRS didn’t have a scheme originally?
15:02<V453000>a bad one? :P
15:02<V453000>I will be glad to help you if you need advices with the scheme :D :P
15:02<andythenorth>reminds me of some devs I’ve worked with
15:02<V453000>got to go, lady demands sleeping
15:03<andythenorth>‘first you shouldn’t start from here'
15:03*andythenorth waits for V453000 to be married with kid
15:04<frosch123>oh, yesterday i speed-up some code by a co-worker by factor 5
15:04<frosch123>i replaced about ten std::map::operator[] with storing a reference of the first []
15:04<Wolf01>pfft I sped up the installation of our cms from 6 hours to a bunch of minutes
15:05<frosch123>it's one of those cases, where a c programmer would never do such a stupid thing, but a bad c++ programmer does not notice :)
15:08<Wolf01>uhm, before I forget it again, home checkout time
15:09<frosch123>hmm, 4:25 to utrecht. that's not too bad
15:09<@planetmaker>what's in utrecht... the tt2015 one?
15:10<frosch123>back from rotterdam is 5:17 at least
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15:10<frosch123>that would rather be a return on monday
15:10<@planetmaker>utrecht is not bad from here either. about the same time as you quoted
15:14<Wolf01>Added: 6374 Deleted: 2 Updated: 105
15:14<Wolf01>not bad
15:15<andythenorth>sometimes I get a Deleted high score
15:15<andythenorth>Deleting is fun
15:15<Wolf01>I keep a checkout of the entire repository because I don't trust much the sysadmin :P
15:16<frosch123>then you should do a hg or git bridge, so you also keep the history :)
15:16*andythenorth trusts to a hosted repo
15:16<andythenorth>and crosses fingers
15:17<Wolf01>about 6370 of those additions are the tags of the cms
15:20<Wolf01>umh, missing composer
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15:23<Wolf01>missing git cli too
15:23<Wolf01>is that even english?
15:24<frosch123>i thought the cli is the worst part of git
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15:26<andythenorth>hg != git :(
15:26*andythenorth got it wrong again
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15:27<Wolf01>I might need grunt and/or gulp too
15:28<@planetmaker>use what you want, andythenorth. But I will not support git ;)
15:28<@planetmaker>if you want to implement devzone support for it, though, be my guest
15:29<andythenorth>just twice a day I’ll get it wrong
15:29<andythenorth>it’s not like anything bad happens
15:29<andythenorth>just makes me feel stupid
15:29<Wolf01>it works, it works! I can see the home page
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15:32<Wolf01>I think I'll switch to postgresql even at home, mysql is meh
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15:49<andythenorth>6/8 trams need different offset to 6/8 trucks, in two angles
16:05<jjavaholic>what is the key to efficient road vehicle production?
16:05<@Alberth>as in ECS car factory production?
16:06<@Alberth>or rather what does "road vaehicle production" mean?
16:06<jjavaholic>as in output
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16:08<@Alberth>are yoy talking about a cargo in some industry newgrf, or road vehicles transporting stuff over the road?
16:09<jjavaholic>slick vehicles transporting stuff over road
16:09<jjavaholic>I laid oneway road thinking that would increase output and avoid break down stoppages
16:09<@Alberth>not much different from trains, have a vehicle loading all the time
16:11<@Alberth>if you use RVs from a newgrf, no, as those are articulated, and articulated RVs cannot take over
16:11<@Alberth>better make more roads in parallel, so traffic gets distributed
16:12<jjavaholic>I don't use any custom newgrfs
16:12<jjavaholic>I'm not sure the vehicles are distributing at all
16:12<jjavaholic>they all seem to be going down same road
16:12<@Alberth>at the stations, drive-through stations have better performance I think
16:13<@Alberth>give vehicles choice of several lanes that are all about equally far away
16:14<jjavaholic>is there a key to doing that?
16:15<@Alberth>I tend to build a drive-through station of 3 tiles orthogonal on the incoming stream, which gets in the middle, so vehicles have to drive left or right for 1 tile, and turn to enter the station
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16:15<@Alberth>if you make one lane closer than others, the RVs all go to that one lane
16:15<jjavaholic>I don't understand what you mean by that
16:16<jjavaholic>do you have a capture online of what this looks like
16:18<@Alberth>I was working on that :)
16:19<@Alberth>the distance to all entries must be mostly equal, so RVs will pick the lane with the fewest other vehicles
16:20<@Alberth>obviously, you can build bigger stations with parallel lanes, based on that principle.
16:20<@Alberth>never did that though
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16:22<jjavaholic>I was already starting that
16:23<jjavaholic>but if what you say is true than I'll need to straighten path to equalise them first
16:25<@Alberth> this is what I just did with trams
16:26<@Alberth>just 2 parallel roads with some junctions here and there
16:26<@Alberth>I don't really plan layout, the junction positions are all just by accident
16:27<@Alberth>and even here, trams do take a detour at the top right to enter the station from the other side if the nearby side is full
16:28<andythenorth>inwisible bridges
16:29<@Alberth>for some reason all bridges mostly just hide the vehicles
16:31<@Alberth>not to mention the electric wires above the tracks which seem needed for steam trams :p
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16:37<jjavaholic>equal road 90 degree corners
16:37<jjavaholic>how does that work?
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17:20<andythenorth>frosch123: I am reading SV code, is the core really just the 538 lines in main.nut? Or do I miss something significant?
17:20*andythenorth is surprised at brevity
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean? that's like 50 hours of development time
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>CETS is maybe 1000 lines
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>plus the tracking table
17:28<andythenorth>for some reason I expected more boilerplate
17:28<andythenorth>dunno why
17:29<andythenorth>also bedtime
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17:33<yaiu>why are downloadable heightmaps always massive
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>you can easily downscale heightmaps, but upscaling is tricky
17:36<yaiu>oh i see
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20:59<dreck>got a silly question but for tractive rating if you had both 1hr and 30min figures given, which one generally is more realistic in-game?
20:59<dreck>hi...super-cheese? heh :)
20:59<Supercheese>tractive rating is... time dependent?
20:59<Supercheese>news to me
21:01<dreck>well its not exactly new that you can't use a traction motor at full power continously
21:04<Eddi|zuHause>dreck: for the game's "tractive effort" use the startup value, for "power" you should use the long-time value (if that is not given, use 1h)
21:04<dreck>thanks, I had suspected it would be the 1hr one but had to ask anyway
21:06<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: many engines can use burst power for short times (like when starting up), but cannot sustain that power over longer periods of time (overheating and stuff)
21:07<Supercheese>well sure, but that's power not TE
21:07<Supercheese>although I suppose they are related
21:07<Supercheese>but traction should be more static, weight/adhesion based no?
21:08<Eddi|zuHause>well, that's a naming issue. technically "tractive effort" is the resulting force of the power that you apply to the wheels
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>there is the "maximum tractive effort" that is given by wheel-on-rail friction, which is what the game models, but there is also the "permanent tractive effort" that is derived from power, when the engine goes fast enough that the power cannot reach max TE anymore
21:10<Eddi|zuHause>F=P/v, meaning the higher your speed, the lower the resulting force
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>max TE limits you for the first 15km/h or so, beyond that, power limits you
21:13<Eddi|zuHause>longterm power interests you for long distance trains (defining max speed) and freight trains (defining max load on decent speed), whereas shortterm power interests you for local and urban trains, which start up very often
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22:15<hdevalence>does anyone have advice on how to build a network without cutting off expansion?
22:19<Sheogorath>what kind of network?
22:19<Eddi|zuHause>build trams
22:21<hdevalence>a rail network
22:21<Eddi|zuHause>especially with cargodist, you can put your train stations further out, and transfer the passengers from the town center with trams (or busses)
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>also, frequent tunnels or bridges over your rails helps cities expand to the other side
22:22<hdevalence>for instance suppose I have my main railway line, and I build it with one track in each direction
22:22<hdevalence>is there a way to make it so that adding in more lines later doesn't cause misery
22:22<Sheogorath>yes and where is the problem?
22:22<Sheogorath>use path signals and create crosses?
22:23<hdevalence>I mean what I guess I really want is a list of things not to do that save pain later on
22:23<Eddi|zuHause>things not to do: worry about future expansions
22:23<Eddi|zuHause>if you add lines, just rebuild the junctions
22:24<Eddi|zuHause>if you worry too much about what happens in the future, you never get anything done in the present
22:24<Sheogorath>for real I've bulid much really complex railsystems... openttd can handle it... (mainly) if you use the right signals
22:25*Sheogorath gives the philosophers' stone to Eddi|zuHause
22:26<Eddi|zuHause>is that the same as the "stein der weisen"?
22:27<Supercheese>I think it lets you transmute lead into gold
22:27<Supercheese>or so the legend goes
22:27<Sheogorath>Eddi|zuHause, yes
22:28<Sheogorath>you know Harry Potter and the philosophers' stone?
22:28<Sheogorath>oh it's "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone"
22:28<Supercheese>which was bastardized into "sorcerer's stone" for the American edition
22:29<Supercheese>no idea why
22:29<Sheogorath>-,- americans....
22:29<Sheogorath>no comment
22:29<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen some, but not all, of the harry potter movies. but in any case, i have seen them in german
22:30<Eddi|zuHause>so it'd have been "Harry Potter und der Stein der Weisen"
22:30<Sheogorath>so because of your "zuHause" you're german right? it's a german word
22:31<Eddi|zuHause>well, technically, it's two words, and also, technically, it's because i'm german it says zuHause
22:31<Sheogorath>well, I guess you are german because of that :D
22:31<Sheogorath>oh okay
22:32<Eddi|zuHause>it'd be somewhat silly were it to say zuHause without me being german
22:32<Sheogorath>yes :D
22:32<Eddi|zuHause>unless zuHause means anything in any other language
22:32<Sheogorath>it says something simular to "at home"?
22:33<Eddi|zuHause>or german were the lingua franca
22:33<Sheogorath>nice to know :D
22:34<Sheogorath>well, time is running short.. I have to go... See you later
22:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's only 4:30
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---Logclosed Sat Dec 06 00:00:28 2014