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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-12-13

---Logopened Sat Dec 13 00:00:38 2014
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03:50<Supercheese>You don't say?
03:54<V453000>was replying to what Eddi said
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05:42<Wolf01>hi hi
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06:20<@planetmaker>hi ho
06:27<Wolf01>the best part to have dual monitors and working on 2 pc at the same time is that when you figure out you must use the other mouse to click on the other screen, and the same is valid for the keyboard
06:46-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
06:46<Flygon>Wolf01: Amatuer :3
06:46<Flygon>Real men use three keyboards, three mice, three monitors, three computers :3
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06:47<@planetmaker>Wolf01, it helps to have a flip switch and use one mouse/keyboard :)
06:48<Wolf01>I usually use one of them and work on remote desktop and 4-5 ssh terminals, but this time I didn't want to connect the ethernet cable
06:48<Flygon>Insane/sad part is
06:48<Flygon>I have a fourth computer also in active commission
06:48<Flygon>But I actually lack the spare keyboard and mouse
06:49<Flygon>And my desk only has room for two monitors
06:49<Flygon>So I have three desks @_@
06:49<Wolf01>quick, give me a free IP address
06:49<Wolf01>it might not work :P
06:53<Wolf01>ok I think my old pc is clean enough to be used from my family as gaming pc
06:53<@planetmaker>yeah... ssh is the more convenient way indeed :)
06:58<Rubidium>Wolf01: maybe helps your "problem"
06:58<@peter1138>I have too many IP addresses to know what to do with :(
06:58<Wolf01>that's interesting
06:59<@peter1138>2^80 is quite a lot, anyway
06:59<Rubidium>sadly enough you need to pay for the prepackaged binaries, but the source code is GPL
07:00<Wolf01>I lost my mouse again
07:00<Rubidium>there's a package in Debian's repository, so I reckon you'd only need to build it yourself for Windows and OS X
07:01<@peter1138>Used to use that years ago. It was free then.
07:02<Rubidium>it still is free (as in speech), just the binaries on the website aren't free (as in beer)
07:02<@peter1138>IIRC it fucks up with games like OpenTTD that do mouse warping.
07:09<NGC3982>I spent like fifteen years on the internet before i realized that IIRC was not IRC written then wrong way.
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07:25<Wolf01>NGC3982, I often use urbandictionary
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07:33<@Alberth>hi hi
07:33<@Alberth>perhaps use a cat for finding the mouse, Wolf01 ?
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07:57<NGC3982>Wolf01: I have never had the opportunity to google it. :P
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08:15<@planetmaker>hm.... ;)
08:16<@Alberth>the good ol days before @calc :p
08:17<@planetmaker>yeah, got that evolution in one image, too: ;)
08:20<NGC3982>That's nice.
08:22<@planetmaker>it's always good to go through the year's photos at least once :)
08:23<@planetmaker>I totally forgot about this one already
08:24<@Alberth>anything you cannot remember can be deleted? :)
08:27<@planetmaker>I delete those which are not in-focus (mostly)
08:27<@planetmaker>I mark a fraction of the remaining with a positive rating so as to not look at all again ;)
08:27<@planetmaker>disk space is cheap, I guess
08:28<@planetmaker>but I wasn't always consequential when doing the rating
08:28<@planetmaker>and it's good to look at photos with some distance from the actual time they were taken. It enhances - at least my - judgement of their quality
08:29*NGC3982 has a big part of his office wall in chalk board
08:29<@Alberth>fresh look never hurts indeed :)
08:29<NGC3982>I like it. It works better, for some reason.
08:29<NGC3982>I don't really know why.
08:29<@planetmaker>yup, always good to have a chalk board in the office
08:29<@Alberth>/me prefers a white board
08:29<@planetmaker>I like it, too
08:29<@planetmaker>not that dusty, Alberth ?
08:30<@Alberth>easier to partly wipe :)
08:30<@planetmaker>hm, really? How so?
08:30<@Alberth>wiper sticks to the board :p
08:30<@planetmaker>:D Magnetic is nice, yes. But... can be done with chalk boards, too
08:31<@planetmaker>though I've never seen a magnetic wiper for one of those indeed
08:31<NGC3982>The white board might be the best combination
08:34<@Alberth>chalk board is better for long term storage, white board aren't designed to keep the writing for a long time on the board
08:35<NGC3982>I guess long term storage (at home) of wall writing seems a bit counterintuitive
08:35<NGC3982>I guess most people use chalk- or white boards for temporary brain RAM.
08:35<NGC3982>At least i do.
08:35<b_jonas>yes, or paper and pencil
08:36<NGC3982>It's actually quite amazing how more efficient our brains can be simply by writing or painting at the same time.
08:36<@Alberth>nah, papers get lost in the other paper stacks :)
08:37<@Alberth>NGC3982: you can remember only 7 things at the same time, which implies most things you make won't fit :p
08:39<@planetmaker>ha, Alberth, indeed: papers get lost in the HUGE stack of papers :)
08:39<@planetmaker>I constantly seem to have that issue :(
08:39<@Alberth>they should invent unstackable paper :D
08:41<NGC3982>Alberth: Yes, but you can remember the order of much, much more.
08:41<NGC3982>That's why writing is so efficient.
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09:30<Eddi|zuHause>writing/painting also connects brain components with each other, making the process naturally more powerful
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09:50<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: I guess that is what i am refering to
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: there's also an effect where when you say the name of a thing outloud, you are more likely to remember details about that thing (e.g. where you put it)
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10:28<Rubidium>wasn't teaching someone else the best method of learning/remembering?
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10:31<Eddi|zuHause>quite likely
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10:38<@Alberth>hi hi
10:39<@planetmaker>hi ho
10:41<frosch123>ho ho
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11:02<frosch123>why does eddi agree with me? that's disturbing
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>happens to everyone
11:04<Rubidium>I've seen him agree with you one several other occasions
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12:08<@Alberth>hi hi
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12:28<andythenorth>how is game Alberth ?
12:29<@Alberth>still stuck in 1899 :)
12:29<andythenorth>you had a lot of money in the save I saw o_O
12:32<@Alberth>yeah, moving the grain of those 4 farms in the screenshot was the first change. After that, the oil things probably, as it's an insane distance
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12:32<@Alberth>moving the fish was probably also big, but I never checked it
12:33<@Alberth>btw feel free to play the game for a while, it'd be interesting to see what you do :)
12:34<@Alberth>I still have earlier saves if you want to check in more detail
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12:36<andythenorth>probably similar train building style
12:36<andythenorth>more ships though
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12:40<@Alberth>oh, the water around the hotels and alcohol distribution. Makes sense. Not sure if I had ships at that time.
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27081 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt lithuanian.txt) (2014-12-13 17:45:40 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
12:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 11 changes by Stabilitronas
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14:04<andythenorth>so does this river generator work then?
14:04<andythenorth>anyone compiled it?
14:05<Rubidium>it's huge and quite slow
14:06<@planetmaker>moderate slowness for map generation is not a huge issue, though, is it?
14:06<Rubidium>didn't produce really nice situations (possibly better than mine though), but there are so many knobs to turn...
14:06<andythenorth>the screenshots look awesome
14:06<andythenorth>but eh, I didn’t have time or inclination to compile it yet
14:06<Rubidium>planetmaker: 512x512 generation seemingly hanging isn't nice (i.e. no progress being shown)
14:07<Rubidium>or at least for a part of it
14:07<Rubidium>and it seemed to terraform a huge amount
14:07<Rubidium>like the old AI was rampaging the map
14:07<@planetmaker>that seems to be part of the point :)
14:08<@planetmaker>honestly, with heights > 16 the current TGP creates insane landscapes when looking at hills. It's all slopes
14:09<andythenorth>what happened to peter1138’s heightmap generator?
14:09<andythenorth>that had good results
14:09<Rubidium>planetmaker: well... I had a mountain with reasonably flat top, the rainfall algorithm made it a mountain ridge
14:09<Rubidium>i.e. I would be unable to build on top of that mountain
14:10<Rubidium>anyhow, it's about 700kB of patches
14:10<@planetmaker>mountains with flat tops are... very rare anyway :)
14:12<Rubidium>not for older mountain ranges
14:13<Rubidium>e.g. Appalachian Mountains
14:14<Rubidium>in any case... rainfall generally flattens the tops of mountains
14:15<andythenorth>or explosives
14:15<Rubidium>(together with other forms of weather)
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14:21<argoneus>what do you guys see in this
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14:26<andythenorth>so CHIPS
14:26<andythenorth>is it done?
14:26<andythenorth>or should I put a few more tiles in?
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14:27<@Alberth>wouldn't eye-candy tiles be nicer? stockpile graphics enough, isn't it?
14:28<@Alberth>ie why waste station tiles for buildings?
14:29<andythenorth>basically I found a building I drew for opengfx and was going to put that in
14:29<andythenorth>and maybe an ice house, and some storage silos
14:29<andythenorth>I could do cargo tiles, but I’ve covered most things afaik
14:29<andythenorth>also the tiles that display cargo are horrible
14:33<@Alberth>narrow gauge looks off-center with chips, but maybe that has a different reason
14:36<andythenorth>because newgrf stations
14:37<andythenorth>I can’t remember why, but it’s unfixable
14:39<andythenorth>this is quite a big oops
14:40<@Alberth>woow :)
14:41<@Alberth>going to be an expensive wedding :p
14:43<frosch123>it doesn't say whether she accepted
14:43<andythenorth>yeah she did
14:43<andythenorth>they’re celebrating
14:43<andythenorth>how nice :)
14:43*andythenorth needs to assemble an nml string with arbitrary number of substrings
14:43<andythenorth>using python
14:43<andythenorth>can’t be hard, right?
14:44<frosch123>too abstract
14:45<andythenorth>actually it’s “[prefix] name [suffix]"
14:45<andythenorth>where prefix and suffix are optional, but name is not
14:46<andythenorth>and I have one function that handles rendering out the required string
14:46<LordAro>sounds like a python oneliner
14:46<andythenorth>sounds like a recursive function
14:46<frosch123>nml can concat strings already
14:46<andythenorth>concat, or substr?
14:47<frosch123>concat, substr makes no sense with translations
14:47*andythenorth could start by reading the docs, or the existing places where I’ve done this :P
14:47<frosch123>i mean composition during compile time, not run time
14:47<frosch123>ask eddi, cets does it
14:48<andythenorth>yeah, eddit gave me his code
14:48<andythenorth>eddi *
14:48<andythenorth>it was a recursive function iirc
14:49*andythenorth is thinking out loud to see if there’s a simpler way
14:50<@Alberth>make a list of sub-strings in the right order, and join them?
14:52<andythenorth>I think my interface for defining names in python sucks though
14:52<andythenorth>seems clunky
14:52<andythenorth>maybe this can wait
14:55<andythenorth>ha, I could be really ugly, and do name = “{prefix} name [suffix]"
14:55<andythenorth>and just copy my split(“[“) code, and switch it to “{“
14:55<andythenorth>I know there are better ways, but it would be easy to do :P
14:58<frosch123>if you let nml do the composition, then translators can translate the parts separately
14:58<frosch123>hmm, or do you also compose translated strings?
14:58<andythenorth>I let nml do it
14:58<andythenorth>e.g. this is the current way suffix is applied
14:58<andythenorth>STR_NAME_${} :${consist.get_name_substr()}{STRING}
14:59<andythenorth>that’s generated into a lang file, and the STRING representing suffix is composed by nml
14:59<andythenorth>all I need to do is insert prefix equivalently
15:00<andythenorth>I’ll just do that, and forget about arbitrary number of substrings, I don’t think it’s a real case
15:00<andythenorth>done > perfect
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15:32<andythenorth>eh? The prefix is always related to railtype, so why am I pissing about splitting strings in python to find that?
15:32*andythenorth sees the light
15:35<@planetmaker><frosch123> if you let nml do the composition, then translators can translate the parts separately <-- I'm not sure that it's true
15:36<@planetmaker>Translation is not merely concatenating translated parts. Often order needs to be different to be a viable translation. I would think it's an approach to fail
15:36<@planetmaker>^ andythenorth
15:36<andythenorth>yeah, I wondered about that
15:36<andythenorth>the alternative is to not use substrings
15:37<andythenorth>which makes the names seem very inelegant
15:37<@planetmaker>It depends a bit on the use case(s)
15:37<andythenorth>two cases
15:37<andythenorth>let’s say engine name is ‘Wookey’ and it’s steam
15:37<andythenorth>so “Wookey (Steam)” is string + substring
15:38<@planetmaker>that would work for translations, too
15:38<andythenorth>similarly “Narrow Gauge Box Car” is ‘{STRING} Box Car'
15:39<@planetmaker>That would not work
15:39<andythenorth>for known fact?
15:39<andythenorth>because I could just write out “Narrow Gauge Box Car” long hand
15:39<@planetmaker>I'm not sure I'd retain that order of attributes, yes
15:39<andythenorth>it doesn’t bother me, but it at minimum doubles the number of translations
15:39<frosch123>it works, if you do "[Narrow Gauge] Box Car"
15:39<@planetmaker>Kastenwagen für Schmalspur; Schmalspur-Kastenwagen
15:40<frosch123>i.e. do not try to make it a valid sentence/term, but make it two separate things
15:40<@planetmaker>yes. But it's pointless. It's a track property. It needs actually no translation. The track type is clear by where it appears actually
15:40<frosch123>though i have no idea why you would put the rail type into the name
15:40<andythenorth>me neither
15:40<frosch123>isn't that what the depot tells you
15:40<@planetmaker>quite right
15:40<andythenorth>it seemed the right thing at the time, but I’m not sure it’s needed
15:40<andythenorth>removing is my favourite kind of improvement
15:41<@planetmaker>then do it ;)
15:41<andythenorth>the only case is ‘available trains’ list
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15:41<andythenorth>there is nothing there to tell you different railtypes
15:42<andythenorth>but eh, I only do it for the wagons, the NG engines lack it already
15:44<@Alberth>andythenorth: smoke seems to be emitted a little behind the ship :)
15:44<andythenorth>wait until it turns
15:44<andythenorth>there are…problems with Squid ship lengths :(
15:45<__ln__>21:58 < frosch123> if you let nml do the composition, then translators can translate the parts separately <-- i don't know what you're talking about, but sounds like a certain failure if concatenation is done in smaller than sentence scale.
15:45<andythenorth>they’re all very wrong
15:47<andythenorth>ticket closed by removing features, awesome
15:49<frosch123>hmm, widelands now needs sdl2
15:49<frosch123>they made a hart cut, delete software renderer and now use only opengl
15:51<frosch123>hmm, i recall i disabled opengl in widelands before, because software renderer was faster :p
15:52<frosch123>though for the look of the terrain opengl makes sense
15:52<frosch123>so, who is going to rewrite openttd? drop all traditional sprites, and do textures instead?
15:53<andythenorth>will it be multi-threaded? o_O)
15:54<@peter1138>3D objects?
15:54<frosch123>a new game would certainly not have as weird data dependencies as ottd currently ahs
15:54<frosch123>like having to synchronise tree animation states over the network :p
15:56<andythenorth>trees must be same in all games
15:56<andythenorth>for realism
15:56<andythenorth>no inconsistencies for optimisation
16:03<@peter1138>Easy, just have a date when it spawned...
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16:25<Eddi|zuHause><argoneus> what do you guys see in this <-- is that like a rorschach test?
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16:25<argoneus>Eddi|zuHause: I'm just wondering if I'm the only one who saw a shy chinese lady
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16:42<@planetmaker>frosch123, we certainly could add some non-sync graphics-only things
16:42<@planetmaker>would probably be a bit hacky, though :)
16:44<@planetmaker>like 2nd animation properties which cannot be queried or a set of sprites which are just cycled or whatever
16:45<@planetmaker>honestly for most stuff, a non-queryable animation would totally suffice
16:45<frosch123>as long as trains can modify running cost when on snow, we won't make any progress there :p
16:52<andythenorth>some of these heqs sprites are bloody awful
16:53<frosch123>planetmaker: another issue we have is, that we have no separate sprite layouts for different zoom levels
16:53<frosch123>we cannot reduce detail when zoomed out
16:53<frosch123>we still draw separate ground, foundations, building, snow, ...
16:56*andythenorth hacks a bit
16:59<andythenorth>I have 1cc wagons with 2cc loads
17:00<andythenorth>and then I have compile-time repaint that flips the cc
17:00<andythenorth>so there are blue wagons with green tractors
17:00<andythenorth>and green tractors with blue wagons
17:00<andythenorth>how curious
17:01<andythenorth>too weird? Or don’t care?
17:02<frosch123>usually i would not expect cargo to use company colours
17:03<frosch123>unless you only deliver to yourself :p
17:03<frosch123>pink tractors and such are weird
17:03<@planetmaker>frosch123, not sure different sprite layouts for different zoom levels would make too much sense (except maybe for larger zoom-out than 1x)
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>use random colour instead of 2nd cc for the cargo
17:04<frosch123>i would not flip the graphics, but add a recolour callback, which picks 1st or 2nd colour randomly for wagon, and a completely random colour for the cargo
17:05<frosch123>planetmaker: well, a saner strategy would be the zoom-out-into-smallmap patch
17:05<andythenorth>so what, yellow tractors? o_O
17:05<andythenorth>now I have to pick colours :)
17:05<frosch123>andythenorth: use one sprite 1st cc for wagon, 2nd cc for cargo
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>you don't pick, that's what the random is for
17:05<frosch123>but use the callback to actually not use the company colours for them
17:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: silly, you have to specify at least ranges
17:05<andythenorth>can’t just random replace from the palette
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>random out of the 16 company colours
17:06<Wolf01>yellow, green, black with red stripes, white with red stripes
17:06<andythenorth>do we have a recolour callback now?
17:06<andythenorth>did I miss something?
17:06<frosch123>it's ancient
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>recolour callback is there for ages
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>CETS supports it, but i don't think i actually used it
17:07<frosch123>nuts makes use of it
17:07<frosch123>for rainbow slugs and such
17:08<@planetmaker>ogfx+trains make use of it for containers
17:09<andythenorth>oh the recolour masks one?
17:09<@planetmaker>no masks
17:09<andythenorth>don’t I have to generate 65536 recolor tables for that?
17:09<@planetmaker>2ndCC used randomly
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17:09<frosch123>andythenorth: you have 1cc and 2cc colour ranges in your sprite, but you can tell ottd to actually not use the company colours, but give it two other colours of the 16 each
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>no, you can reuse the existing 256 recolours
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>you just need to tell which one to use
17:10<andythenorth>how do I do it whilst preserving 2CC though?
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>your wagon is 1cc, you said
17:11<andythenorth>it’s 1CC and 2CC randomly
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17:11<andythenorth>selected at build time
17:11<frosch123>andythenorth: you make the sprite 1cc only, but then tell ottd to either use the first or second company colour for the 1cc colours
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes, so based on one random bit, you return the 1st or 2nd cc for the 1st cc
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>and based on some other random bits, you return a random colour as 2nd cc
17:12<andythenorth>why isn’t this standard?
17:12<frosch123>colour_map: return base_sprite_2cc + (randombit1 ? company_colour1 : company_colour2) + 16 * randomrange(16)
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>those other random bits you make with a "randomize on empty" trigger
17:12<andythenorth>does everybody else do this?
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>pretty much everybody else does this
17:13<frosch123> <- the rainbow slug case
17:13<andythenorth>and this is what people use for recolouring cargos as well?
17:13<frosch123>it also picks different colour depending on position
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>note that the trigger cannot be in the callback, but must be in either the default callback or the random triggers callback
17:14<frosch123>andythenorth: not many cargos are suitable for recolouring, but as pm says: ogfx+trains does it for containers
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, with additional stuff to have 2cc and cargo colour
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>GermanRV was the first one i've seen that did that
17:14<frosch123>3 recolour ranges is considerable more work though :)
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>and that was at least 5 years ago
17:16<frosch123>iirc germanrv tried to use to it recolour mineral piles, which i do not consider a good use
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>why? it works very well
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17:17<frosch123>different cargo types should differ in more than just colours
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17:17<andythenorth>I stopped drawing different mineral cargos a while ago
17:17<frosch123>imo recolouring only works for painted stuff, like containers or machinery
17:17<frosch123>not to distinguish coal from copper
17:18<andythenorth>nah, life’s too short
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like texture changes a lot in TTD normal zoom
17:18<dreck>frosch yeah theres a clear difference between lumber/steel/etc on a wagon and coal/grain/etc in a wagon :)
17:18<andythenorth>I was doing all mineral cargos using paintbucket anyway
17:18<frosch123>andythenorth: just make V draw or render it :p
17:18<andythenorth>so I figured the computer could do that for me
17:19<andythenorth>same with painting containers and such
17:24<andythenorth>hmm recolor sprites boggles my mind
17:24<andythenorth>I’m going to pretend I don’t know about it
17:27<__ln__>'night Wolf01
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17:40<andythenorth>silly andythenorth
17:45<andythenorth>thought I’d have to write new code
17:45<andythenorth>but I wrote it already
17:55<andythenorth>ho ho
17:55<andythenorth>the loads vary by date
17:55<andythenorth>due to abuse of code for varying wagon by date
17:55<andythenorth>wonder if anyone will notice? o_O
17:56<dreck>dunno? :)
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18:14<andythenorth>hmm futuristic bit of Iron Horse, think it has to be monorail
18:14<andythenorth>also maglev is ugly
18:19<andythenorth>monorail road crossings are stupid though
18:20<frosch123>tracksets can disable them, if they really care
18:20<andythenorth>can I disable them and keep the base-set graphics? o_O
18:22<frosch123>no idea
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18:23*andythenorth having ideas
18:23<andythenorth>considered slug rail briefly
18:23<andythenorth>I think that’s already covered though :)
18:23<frosch123>i think wetrail does not allow level crossing
18:24<frosch123>haven't tried though, V could just as well not care :p
18:26<dreck>well roadcrossing are a necessarity in the game anyway
18:26<frosch123>bridges and tunnels are better
18:27<dreck>frosch..except wheres a bridge that can use diagonal bridgeheads?
18:27<dreck>otherwise it wouldn't even fit...same for sloped tiles needed to get a tunnel
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18:41<Eddi|zuHause>there's pills for that
18:42<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> can I disable them and keep the base-set graphics? o_O <-- i think so
18:42<andythenorth>I think so too
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18:42<andythenorth>really the whole thing should be elevated
18:42<andythenorth>but eh
18:43<andythenorth>that’s not going to happen
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 14 00:00:40 2014