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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-12-14

---Logopened Sun Dec 14 00:00:40 2014
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03:20<andythenorth>o/
04:17*andythenorth learns about predicates
04:21<andythenorth>enough of that
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04:32<Supercheese>a predicate predicament?
04:32<andythenorth>just curious what they were
04:32<andythenorth>now I know what I don’t know
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04:37<andythenorth>ho ho
04:37<andythenorth>is there a var for ‘date cargo was loaded on this vehicle’?
04:38<@planetmaker>moin moin
04:38<@planetmaker>andythenorth, no, there isn't
04:39*andythenorth looking in 80+
04:39<Supercheese>according to the internals there is
04:39<Supercheese>547F2 [80][352*x] Vehicle array
04:39<Supercheese>3F B Cargo transit time, in +185 ticks (~2.5 days) units
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04:39<Supercheese>from http://www.ttdpatch.de/grfspecs/Transport_Tycoon_Deluxe_savegame_internals.html
04:40<Supercheese>although hmm that is not date
04:40<andythenorth>no
04:40<andythenorth>well, nvm
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04:42<andythenorth>all the steam tractor loads will turn into diesel tractors in 1910
04:42<andythenorth>even while the train is moving :)
04:43<Supercheese>heh
04:49<andythenorth>maybe I could advance the animation frame when visiting a station after 1910
04:49<andythenorth>dunno
04:49<andythenorth>I think TMWFTLB might apply
04:50<Supercheese>agreed
04:50<Supercheese>acceptable bug is acceptable
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05:05<@Alberth>moin
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05:12<@planetmaker>Supercheese, those are internals of ttdpatch which often don't work with OpenTTD
05:12<@planetmaker>andythenorth, last service date
05:13<@planetmaker>moin Albert :)
05:13<andythenorth>planetmaker: thought of that
05:13<andythenorth>but disabled breakdowns innit
05:13<andythenorth>unreliable
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05:14<@planetmaker>yes, that's true
05:14<@Alberth>ha, breakdowns are unreliable, even when switched off :p
05:15<andythenorth>I think the message here is that I’ve added a bad feature
05:15<andythenorth>date-sensitive cargo is not good
05:16<andythenorth>usually fighting the game is a sign of that
05:16<@planetmaker>andythenorth, on the other hand: it doesn't hurt if it's unreliable: the worst which can happen is that it looks like now. The best is that you have date-dependent graphics
05:16<@planetmaker>but of course, you'll get the bug report, that the cargo changed after a depot visit ;)
05:17<andythenorth>or that steam tractors are show in 1960
05:17<andythenorth>because no depot visit
05:17<andythenorth>shown *
05:18<andythenorth>i’ts a bad feature, I should just use crates
05:18<andythenorth>it’s
05:18*andythenorth has typing shame, I should go back to bed
05:20<@planetmaker>I'm pretty sure that steam trucks in 2015 are nicer than crates :)
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05:20<@Alberth>fighting the game only means there is no proper solution for something
05:21<@planetmaker>yup :)
05:21<andythenorth>afaict the solution is to a var for when cargo was loaded
05:21<andythenorth>again, I can’t type, wtf is going on
05:22<@Alberth>no worries, I didn't notice :)
05:26<andythenorth>presumably we know the cargo age, because the profit calculation needs it
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05:31<@Alberth>there is something called days_in_transit
05:32<andythenorth>ah, that’s going to be independent of current date
05:34<@Alberth>I am not sure why that solution was chosen, probably there are subtleties in the payment calculation
05:34<andythenorth>probably the easiest for the payment
05:34<@Alberth>it can also be a matter of memory storage, date is probably bigger than a day count
05:35<andythenorth>avoids subtracting current date and cargo loaded date
05:36<@Alberth>with transfers and cargo laying at stations, it's probably more complicated than end_date - start_date
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05:50<andythenorth>hmm
05:50<andythenorth>also not simple for vehicles
05:51<andythenorth>for similar reason
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06:23<andythenorth>so what do you all do for futuristic trains then?
06:23<andythenorth>monolev set?
06:23<andythenorth>something else?
06:23<andythenorth>NUTS covers all bases?
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06:32<@Alberth>everybody does mono/maglev, isn't it?
06:32<andythenorth>I kind of what to add one to Iron Horse
06:32<andythenorth>but I never play past about 2010
06:32<andythenorth>so eh
06:32<NGC3982>Iron Horse?
06:33<@Alberth>nuts does it nicely in not really forcing people to switch
06:33<NGC3982>Me too. I hardly ever exceed 1990.
06:33*andythenorth considers monorail for 1960s
06:33<andythenorth>alternative history thing
06:33<andythenorth>might be better
06:34<@peter1138>What's alternative about that?
06:34-!-supermop [~supermop@d110-33-171-227.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:34<@peter1138>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Einschienerp.jpg
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06:35<@Alberth>woow, that stays on the track? :)
06:35<@Alberth>it looks like it would tip over any moment :)
06:36<andythenorth>considered that already
06:36<andythenorth>gyroscopic
06:36<andythenorth>can’t turn left though
06:36<@Alberth>:)
06:36<@Alberth>nice constraint for the path finder :p
06:37<@peter1138>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Osaka_switches_tms.jpg
06:37<@peter1138>cool
06:38<NGC3982>That seems to have a both upper and lower support.
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06:40<argoneus>ayy
06:41<andythenorth>best not to drive off a non-aligned switch
06:41<andythenorth>oops
06:42<NGC3982>I'm bored with OpenTTD again. Haven't played with NUTS for some time, but I don't feel that eager to either.
06:42<andythenorth>you need game scripts
06:42<andythenorth>but no fucker will make them :D
06:42<andythenorth>maybe monorail is urban rapid transit, rather than high speed inter-city
06:43<andythenorth>but then the road crossings suck
06:43<NGC3982>Isn't there a big nice pack for early urban inter-city monorail already?
06:43<andythenorth>probably
06:44<andythenorth>for Iron Horse there would only be one or two trains
06:44<NGC3982>Something-something British.
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06:44<NGC3982>Ok
06:44<andythenorth>if I can steal them from somewhere else, I would be happy
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: make the rail sink into the road if it's not reserved
06:44<@peter1138>That implies you're happy mixing up millions of sets and having no consistency...
06:45<andythenorth>peter1138: yes indeed
06:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that is a nice idea
06:46<@peter1138>Animated level-crossings?
06:46<andythenorth>shocking
06:46<NGC3982>Bah. Installed zBase to refresh my view. Noticed I need a new computer :(
06:47<@peter1138>Only difference I noted was everything becomes ugly.
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>if everything is slow after using zBase, try increasing the sprite cache size
06:53<NGC3982>Oh. I'll try it. Thanks.
06:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so (never done railtypes), that would be use the reservation overlay to draw the rail? Otherwise empty sprite?
07:00<@peter1138>Uh, why would Windows Media Player fail to list most songs (apart from 10) from my DLNA share? :S
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07:37<@Alberth>o/
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07:39<frosch123>hola
07:39<dreck>do any of you know if the 'opengfx biggui' thing can't be disabled player-wise? (its on a multiplayer game yeah)
07:39<dreck>hi frosch
07:41<@planetmaker>hi dreck: no newgrf can be disabled, if required by the server
07:42<frosch123>you could try digging up an ancient version of opengfx-gui (some prelimiary newgrf from 2006, before opengfx baseset was a thing), and load it as static newgrf
07:42<@planetmaker>however, it's bad style from the server to require ogfx+biggui
07:42<dreck>planetmaker then you would had though tthe grf would disable itself in such setting
07:42<dreck>and yeah bad indeed :->
07:42<@planetmaker>dreck, why would the grf disable itself? And how? It doesn't know it's on a server. There's no difference between MP and SP games
07:42<dreck>it makes the menu looks quite squished up ... and thats not counting the advanced setting menu being a little...squeezed too
07:43<dreck>dunno what its real purpose seem to be
07:43<@planetmaker>bigger GUI like its name suggests?
07:43<dreck>except that its not really any bigger..its just making the clickable surface smaller on the contrast
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07:52<@peter1138>Eh...
07:52<@peter1138>You're still strange.
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08:08<Wolf01>hi hi
08:08<@Alberth>moin
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08:13<dreck>hi wolf01
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10:22<Quatroking>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5JflElJELk
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11:02<NGC3982>bajs.
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11:44<@Alberth>o/
11:46<andythenorth>o/
11:59<andythenorth>monorail! http://www.olympicaquaticengineers.co.uk/monorail-transportation-system
12:00<andythenorth>monorail! http://www.narrow-gauge.co.uk/gallery/show.php?image_id=3465&cat_id=394
12:02<andythenorth>monorail! http://www.demagcranes.co.uk/files/content/sites/uk/files/Products/Leichtkransystem_KBK/KBK-Hängebahnen/ANwendungen/39857-1.jpg
12:05<@Alberth>nice :)
12:06<@Alberth>/me pictures a monorail for moving livestock :p
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12:10<andythenorth>I found some for slaughterhouses
12:10<andythenorth>not nice pictures
12:12<@Alberth>anything heavy enough gets moved in this way, cars move that way too in the factory when being assembled
12:12<@Alberth>*while
12:13<@Alberth>I do like the first 2 pictures, a nice temporary portable mono rail system for moving things at a site
12:14<andythenorth>dunno if it fits ttd though :)
12:15<@Alberth>at least it's different from the usual mono rail solution, and it fits in an earlier time period
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12:21<Eddi|zuHause>somehow a sentence starting with "Andy certainly knows better than anybody else" makes me cringe
12:21<andythenorth>me too
12:21<andythenorth>for the record
12:22*andythenorth now avoiding that thread
12:23<andythenorth>hmm
12:23<andythenorth>maybe Brit roster of iron horse just has no futuristic thing
12:23<andythenorth>I*could* do a boring 186mph high-speed-1 Eurostar thing
12:23<andythenorth>but eh, it’s been done, and it’s boring
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12:25<andythenorth>maybe Brit roster really is “done"
12:25<andythenorth>design creep and perfectionism is why Full FIRS is so terrible to play
12:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27082 trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt (2014-12-14 17:45:22 UTC)
12:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas
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12:54<smeding_>hi guys! i'm contemplating trying to integrate a more interesting economic model into openttd as a fun programming project
12:54-!-smeding_ is now known as smeding
12:55<smeding>so i was wonder if people know about other attempts, or if people have specific gripes with the current model
12:59<@Alberth>the forum is full with such people
13:00<smeding>people who have gripes, or people who are tackling them? :)
13:00<@Alberth>although usually it ends with just exchanging personal wish lists
13:00<@Alberth>people with gripes
13:00<smeding>well, i'm looking for wish lists, basically
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13:01<@Alberth>look in OpenTTD suggestions or OpenTTD problems, depending on how bad you think it is :)
13:01<smeding>yeah, taking a look, thanks
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13:02<@Alberth>I don't think you will find something of a global model that works for many people, at best it seems replacement of one random model for another one
13:02<smeding>oh, sure, i'm sure people would have complaints about mine
13:03<smeding>i'm doing this mostly for me.. but it seems useful to look at what other people have said on the matter
13:03<@Alberth>OpenTTD is played in many different ways, with different ideas and requirement for the economic model
13:03<Sylf>up to and including ignoring economic models entirely :)
13:04<@Alberth>yup :)
13:04<smeding>currently there just doesn't seem to be much choice
13:04<smeding>so if nothing else, it seems worth trying for that reason
13:05<@Alberth>tbh I think there is no solution
13:05<@Alberth>if you lend money to set up a company, you need to make more money than you pay, to survive
13:06<@Alberth>if you do, you can invest that money to make more money
13:06<@Alberth>this grows exponentially, so inevitably you will get insane amounts of money if you play long enough
13:06<smeding>yes, but what i usually find happening is that i set up a lucrative few lines or something, and it ends up being very easy to do anything i want after that
13:07<smeding>i'm thinking about tackling this in a few ways... the ideas haven't solidified yet, but one thing i'm thinking of is something like dynamic inflation
13:07<smeding>economics isn't my strong suit, so i've got some reading to do
13:08<@Alberth>the goal is that it should increase gaming fun
13:08<smeding>yeah, but that's different for everyone
13:08<@Alberth>many people confuse OpenTTD to be a simulation, and try to push real-world ideas into it
13:08<smeding>so basically i think this would make it more fun for me
13:09<@Alberth>you know about basecost grfs, and game scripts?
13:10<smeding>yes, and i'm not sure that's enough to effect the improvements i think can be made for my personal case
13:10<@Alberth>the CashDrain script comes to mind
13:10<smeding>fwiw, i'm not thinking about pushing to integrate this into openttd trunk really, let alone pushing to use it as a default model
13:10<smeding>all in all, i'm aiming to solve two "problems" that i have personally
13:11<smeding>1. it seems like it can get rather easy in ways that seem a bit unrealistic to me
13:11<smeding>2. i'm looking for an interesting programming project
13:11<smeding>that's all. i feel like you're trying to defend the current system but this is not intended as a global replacement
13:11<@Alberth>there is a large group of people that likes a more difficult model, the problem is that they don't agree on how to do that
13:12<smeding>yes, and my solution to that is to just try doing what i think would be interesting. i've found a few other people who seem willing to contribute
13:12<@Alberth>that would be good
13:12<@Alberth>write a patch, let people play with it in a patch pack etc
13:13<smeding>i'm still writing up some notes, so i thought i'd wander in here and see if anyone has something where they say "this really bugs me about the current model"
13:13<smeding>or "people tried this thing and it worked/didn't work for xyz reasons"
13:13<@Alberth>I think most people here don't play the game very often :)
13:13<smeding>always good to have some more inspiration
13:14<smeding>hehe. i go back and forth. i recently got into it again, but now the idea of adding some code of my own frankly seems a bit more fun
13:15<@Alberth>economic model is a BIG topic, try to structure things, so you can place requests at parts of the model
13:15<@Alberth>or it all becomes one big messy heap of stuff
13:15<smeding>well, i agree with what you said before -- this is very subjective -- so i was thinking of not placing requests with anyone but myself
13:15<smeding>but i'm taking notes first, yes
13:16<Sylf>if you can come up with an economic model framework, where people can plug in their own game script/settings to, might actually gain some popularity
13:16<@Alberth>subjective is fine, in the ideal case, you can tweak the model by adding knobs at various places in the code
13:17<Sylf>if that's even possible
13:17<smeding>Alberth: i'm definitely aiming to add a lot of twiddleable factors
13:17<@planetmaker>Alberth, eventually your money will grow linearily: you cannot expand exponentially fast, thus your income increases with your construction speed :)
13:17<smeding>Sylf: i suppose i could try to implement it modularly, though i don't think it's worthwhile to try to integrate scripting or something
13:18<@planetmaker>s/money/increase in money/
13:18<Sylf>it might just mean making AI/GS API available
13:19<@Alberth>planetmaker: fair enough, but at that point speed of growth is non-relevant :p
13:21<@Alberth>Sylf: interfering in eg payments should be done in C++ code, as there are many such transactions, more than a script can handle. the API should be a higher level policy API thus, eg 50% payment for X, 150% payment for Y, etc
13:21<@planetmaker>it totally is irrelevant then, yes :)
13:21<@planetmaker>I just felt like being pointlessly pedantic :P
13:21<@Alberth>nah!
13:21<@Alberth>/me hugs planetmaker
13:21<@planetmaker>:)
13:21<@Alberth>instead I just hire you to increase my building speed :p
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13:22<@planetmaker>haha :) that just increases the slope but not the function :)
13:22<@Alberth>It feels like one of those "clicker" games that also grow exponentially in every direction :p
13:23<@planetmaker>:)
13:25<smeding>what sources of documentation are there for the code? i found the doxygen and the OpenTTDDevBlackBook stuff on the wiki, is there anything else?
13:25<@Alberth>smeding: The only reason why I defend the current model is because I haven't seen anything better yet. Note that my goal is just build network, so the model fails for me in the beginning when I have to wait for money :)
13:25<@Alberth>doxygen and the code is the best
13:26<smeding>fair enough
13:26<@Alberth>blackbook stuff is probably very much outdated
13:26<smeding>well, looks like it doesn't contain what i was looking for anyway
13:26<@Alberth>you can also ask here
13:26<smeding>a description of how things currently work and what happens where in the code wrt e.g. towns
13:26<@Alberth>ha! :)
13:26<@Alberth>that would be a book
13:26<@planetmaker>also our forums are a good place to ask
13:27<@Alberth>OpenTTD has > 300K lines of code
13:27<@planetmaker>the code has pretty good comments. A book would basically duplicate that :)
13:27<smeding>well, some pointers would be nice, but yes, the code looks decently documented
13:28<@planetmaker>it helps to grep the whole code for what you search. And then go from what turns up :)
13:28<smeding>i did that :)
13:28<smeding>but i like shortcuts
13:28<@planetmaker>that works reasonably fast and usually sufficiently little iterations are needed to end up where the interesting stuff happens
13:28<@Alberth>smeding: you'll have to be more specific in what you are looking for
13:29<smeding>Alberth: i'll be more specific when i'm not just asking about sources of documentation :P
13:29<@planetmaker>also, our wiki explains in the game concepts section pretty well how the game works
13:30<@planetmaker>so if it's about how things should work, that's a good place, too
13:30<@planetmaker>(though the code is authorative, the wiki is not)
13:30<smeding>i'm just trying to find some bits of the code, e.g. how the town decides to place buildings, and the state each town keeps and such
13:30<smeding>but i'm just poking through the code by myself now
13:30<andythenorth>smeding: the biggest single gripe I’ve seen in forums recently is how payment is related to distance
13:31<@Alberth>CommandCost is pretty basic in the econominc model, but it's throughout the code
13:31<andythenorth>which imho is done correctly currently
13:31<andythenorth>the other thing that bugs ~many people is ‘the money problem’ you described earlier -> succesful company prints money
13:31<@Alberth>smeding: src/town_cmd.cpp:184:static bool BuildTownHouse(Town *t, TileIndex tile); ?
13:32<smeding>Alberth: yeah grep told me that what i was looking for there was in town_cmd.cpp :)
13:32<@Alberth>the _cmd files handle the game actions
13:32<smeding>although TileLoop_Town looks more specific to what i was trying to find
13:32<smeding>anyway it's all good, i think i'll manage on my own for now :)
13:33<@Alberth>ok :)
13:33<@Alberth>andythenorth: we need a money printing factory :p
13:33<smeding>i just need to build a model in my head for what the bits are and how they work together
13:34<smeding>the tile loop thing seems like it'd play a big role here
13:34<@Alberth>it's the loop for continuously uipdating things in the background
13:34<smeding>yeah
13:34<@planetmaker>smeding, the tile loop only calls the actual functions which do stuff
13:35<andythenorth>at the economy level, I have thought about it now and then over many years :P
13:35<andythenorth>and the only two suggestions I have are:
13:35<andythenorth>- progressive, punitive taxation
13:36<@Alberth>increase inflation level? :)
13:36<andythenorth>- supply & demand based payment model (Railroad Tycoon 3 did this). Each tile has a demand function, and if the demand is satisfied price starts to fall for delivered cargo
13:36<smeding>andythenorth: i'm thinking about the latter :)
13:37<smeding>andythenorth: my general idea is also to just model a bit more stuff
13:37<andythenorth>there’s already a newgrf custom payment cb
13:37<andythenorth>and prices per cargo could be stored per town iirc
13:37<andythenorth>so at minimum, town-based supply and demand should be doable with reasonable effort
13:38<andythenorth>maybe not touching the game C++ code much at all
13:38<smeding>andythenorth: one idea i have is tracking how much money each town has tied up in several things -- wealth of the population, business holdings and government budget maybe
13:39<@planetmaker>write a game script then, smeding
13:39<@planetmaker>and if some info is lacking, patch the GS API so that it becomes viable via game script
13:39<smeding>that's also a possibility
13:39<smeding>i haven't looked into the game scripts much
13:40<smeding>the only one i tried kept pausing the game to do its calculation
13:40<@planetmaker>instead of having too many economy models, it's better to outsource that to a script so that everyone can do whatever s/he wants
13:40<@planetmaker>without messing with the core
13:41<smeding>i guess that works too
13:44<@Alberth>the interesting part would be figuring out if you can have a script set a policy, with some C++ code that handles the actual transactions
13:44<smeding>a policy in what sense?
13:45<@Alberth>amount of payment to the user, for example
13:46<@Alberth>you cannot ask the script what to do eg for every ton of cargo transported
13:46<smeding>yeah
13:47<@Alberth>so you have to set a policy for payment at a higher level, like coal 50%, and food 120%
13:47<smeding>well, i'm more interested in what andythenorth said, which is base things far more on supply and demand -- so the payment rate would vary depending on where it happened
13:48<@Alberth>or if you have destinations in mind, coal from X pays 10%
13:48<smeding>i think that would have to get pretty granular to support what i have in mind
13:48<@Alberth>or coal to X, of course
13:49<smeding>"coal to x pays this amount, so long as it's under the limit of what the power plant can process"
13:49<@Alberth>one level higher would be something like "this tile 'eats' X tonnes / month"
13:49<@Alberth>or "this area"
13:50<smeding>it seems a bit difficult to capture in general terms, but i need to look at how things work more
13:50<@Alberth>you may want to play with ECS industry set, which does stockpiling
13:51<@Alberth>I agree, the policy problem comes later
13:51<smeding>one thing to note is that i don't have 100% 'done' ideas yet
13:52<@Alberth>I don't think anyone has those, unless you mean the current model :p
13:52<smeding>heh
13:52<smeding>well, i mean it's not just a matter of "i need the game to do this" and we can find the best way to accomplish that
13:52<andythenorth>storing a demand factor, per-cargo, per-tile would be useful
13:52<andythenorth>0-15 would be enough
13:52<andythenorth>default 7 or 8
13:52<andythenorth>unless it’s powers of 2
13:53<andythenorth>then 4 or so
13:53<smeding>in general what i'd like to be able to do is track and calculate a lot of things
13:53<@Alberth>smeding: yeah, that's how economy is big and complicated, there are so many ways to change things
13:53<smeding>i'm not sure what the performance of Squirrel is like, the game script i've used before seemed a bit slow
13:53*andythenorth dunno if it’s wise storing a demand factor 64 cargos, per tile on a 4096x4096 map
13:53<andythenorth>64 bytes per tile
13:53<smeding>and looking at its code (it's "balanced city growth" from the downloads menu)
13:54<smeding>andythenorth: well, what was thinking of is calculating it for a town
13:54<smeding>andythenorth: and that's just for passengers or mail
13:54<smeding>and goods and anything else town buildings might accept -- not 64 anyway
13:55<smeding>so basically, simplify by saying that once someone is in a town, they can get anywhere in the town if they want -- covering the town better just means they can do so more easily
13:56<smeding>andythenorth: and calculating how much other cargoes are needed per industry that accepts that cargo
13:57<andythenorth>trying to do anything with industry is pretty game-overed, if you want to respect newgrf
13:58<andythenorth>if you don’t care, then… :)
14:01<smeding>yeah industry would need to change too
14:01<smeding>but there's possibilities there i think
14:02<smeding>i mean the industry newgrfs. maybe the other ones too
14:02<smeding>i think the other stuff would mostly tie into the economy through base costs? that seems pretty adaptable to other systems
14:02<smeding>just a relative measure of how expensive things are
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14:07*andythenorth wonders
14:07<andythenorth>are base costs exposed to GS currently
14:07<andythenorth>docs would tell me :P
14:11<smeding>hmmm, is there a sort of callback model between GS and the C++ code?
14:11<smeding>that seems like one of the better ways to go if you want to handle things like economy
14:12<smeding>something to the effect of "hey, call this when cargo is delivered so we can compute how much it should make the player"
14:17<@Alberth>that will fail with a few hundred trains already, let alone say a 1000
14:17<smeding>oh, is it that slow?
14:17<@Alberth>ie a MP game with 15 companies
14:18<@Alberth>well, you can hit the CPU limit with trains currently
14:18<@Alberth>any time you use for calculations immediately translates to less trains driving around
14:18<andythenorth>afaik GS is turn-based, no cbs
14:18<andythenorth>but I haven’t written any, so eh
14:19<smeding>yeah, it looked that way
14:19<@Alberth>for SP it's not a problem perhaps, but in MP where your patch would be popular...
14:19<smeding>Alberth: yeah.
14:19<@Alberth>but you first need to decide what to change :)
14:20<smeding>Alberth: i'm not sure what the best way to do it is... sounds like we're back to my idea of just branching off, and possibly making it a selectable option
14:20<andythenorth>providing a pluggable economy is definitely needing branching ottd
14:20<@Alberth>yeah, just make a patch, and see how you and others like it
14:20<andythenorth>mucking about with the economy for entertainment can be done without touching ottd at all
14:20<andythenorth>I’d pick one :)
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14:44<@Alberth>hmm, original map generator produces really ugly maps :p
14:46<andythenorth>they’re quite special
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14:49<@Alberth>yeah, I should play one, I haven't done that ever since I started playing with OpenTTD
14:51<frosch123>Alberth: make sure to use original graphics then, not opengfx
14:52<frosch123>i don't think people spent too much time on the mapgen sprites in ogfx :)
14:52<@peter1138>And make sure height levels is 15.
14:53<andythenorth>salt mine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68v8HLoN3Ng
14:53<andythenorth>original map gen is rubbish
14:53<andythenorth>but has a nostalgia value
14:54<frosch123>andythenorth: now fillled up with barrels of nuclear waste?
14:54<andythenorth>dunno :)
14:54<andythenorth>also imho original map gen makes for better route building
14:54<andythenorth>even if it looks terrible
14:55<andythenorth>tends to produce benches on mountains
14:55<andythenorth>and buildable valleys
14:56<andythenorth>TGP looks a bit less silly but is a PITA to actually build on
15:08<andythenorth>so which rendering app is de-rigeur these days?
15:08<andythenorth>please don’t tell me sketchup :(
15:16<andythenorth>V453000: go on, render me one of these at 1x zoom :D http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag13/Rails-Vault/September%2026th%202013%20Items/081_zpscdd59552.jpg
15:17<andythenorth>it’s just 2 cones and a cylinder, but I don’t have all the lighting rig and camera and all the 3D crap :)
15:19<@Alberth>too many weird sites referenced from that one
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16:18<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/lots_of_fishing_harbours.png a bit too close perhaps?
16:19<Wolf01>nah
16:19<andythenorth>interesting
16:19<andythenorth>didn’t know they’d do that
16:20<@Alberth>plenty of space everywhere, and they clutter together :)
16:22<andythenorth>silly things
16:22<andythenorth>someone should fix FIRS
16:22<andythenorth>full of bugs
16:24<frosch123>call your next grf FOB :)
16:25<andythenorth>the next one will be pipes
16:25<andythenorth>pipes can be full of bugs :P
16:26<@Alberth>PWB (pipes with bugs)
16:26<andythenorth>PDB
16:27<andythenorth>Piped Bugger
16:27*andythenorth is having newgrf finishing motivation issues
16:27<andythenorth>anyone written a new GS yet?
16:27<andythenorth>other than CashDrain?
16:29<@Alberth>you have a nice idea?
16:31<andythenorth>not yet
16:33<@Alberth>k
16:33<@Alberth>gn
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17:13<argoneus>http://youtube.com/watch?v=aYVdMLBTwko
17:13<argoneus>imagine being a god
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