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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-12-15

---Logopened Mon Dec 15 00:00:41 2014
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07:37<andythenorth>Less Height Levels
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08:39<@planetmaker>less flickering
08:40*andythenorth should report the ‘full animation’ bug
08:40<andythenorth>black rectangles
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08:40<b_jonas>report it
08:41*andythenorth should do many things :P
08:41<andythenorth>like finish Squid
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09:47<@peter1138>the path is clear
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11:01<andythenorth>peter1138: “the path is clear” <- is there snow where you are then?
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11:33<@Belugas>ye yes yes!! here we do !! yes yes yes ! snow on the ground!
11:33<dihedral>Hey guys
11:33<dihedral>can any of you tell me what 'DirectMap2M' stands for in the output of /proc/meminfo?
11:36<dihedral>hey Belugas how are you?
11:38<Plaete>Belugas: *white flake down! white flake down!*
11:41<dihedral>Alberth: o/
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>why do always the most southern guys get the most snow?
11:43<@Alberth>it wouldn't have anything to do with not being around a large population and a lot of industry, would it?
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>i doubt that
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>more about not being next to a warm body of water
11:45<@Alberth>fair enough
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>concentration of industry and population may change the temperature on the ground by 1 or 2 degrees, but that only means snow would melt easier, not that it won't fall
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>and global climate change doesn't count into this either, because due to its globalness, it's not influenced by concentration of population and industry, just total number
11:54*Belugas is doing fine, enjoying good coffee and warm seat :)
11:54<@Belugas>and how is doing dihedral?
11:54<@Belugas>and the others as well :)
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11:56*dihedral is tired ^^
11:56*andythenorth is daddy daycare
11:56<andythenorth>although why we say that I don’t know
11:57<andythenorth>nobody says mummy daycare
12:03<@Alberth>mummies don't care for days?
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what that actually means
12:04<@Alberth>me neither :p
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>and wtf is smfw?
12:08<@peter1138>... my face when?
12:08<andythenorth>and why did I read that problems thread?
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12:32<andythenorth>cargo loading speeds are different for trains vs. rvs
12:32<andythenorth>another thing to learn then forget
12:33<V453000>how exactly different?
12:33<andythenorth>cargo loaded every 40 ticks for trains, 20 ticks for RVs, 10 ticks for ships
12:34<andythenorth>planes same as RVs
12:34<andythenorth>so setting 20 as the prop value has quite different results in different places :P
12:34<V453000>I see
12:34<andythenorth>I never pay any attention to it in game, but I get enough reports to suggest that other people do
12:34<V453000>so with 20, trains will load half the amoutn RVs will in the same time?4
12:35<andythenorth>pitfalls for the unwary
12:35*V453000 will remember that for when he makes a RV newGRF
12:36*V453000 just forgot it
12:36<@Alberth>it's just plain stupid imho
12:36<V453000>I think it makes some sense, at least for RVs
12:36<andythenorth>I’m just going to write code to set the props on each vehicle
12:36<andythenorth>it’s a non-interesting property
12:36<V453000>well maybe it doesnt
12:37<andythenorth>it makes no sense
12:37<V453000>idk andy, loading speed is kind of important
12:37<V453000>says how many stations you need to keep stuff saturated
12:37<andythenorth>how do you know?
12:37<V453000>if the RV loads fucklong, you need many stations
12:37<@Alberth>sure, but there is no reason to use 3 different units of measurement for 4 types of transport
12:37<andythenorth>do you read the source code for grfs?
12:37<V453000>if it drops shit quickly, you need 1/2
12:38<V453000>no you dont, you see the effect in the game if your stuff is clogging XD
12:38<V453000>I would say longer loading times for RVs are nice here
12:38<V453000>yeah Alberth :) that probably sense makes not
12:38<andythenorth>why use two factors where one is enough? (probably hysterical raisins)
12:39<@Alberth>probably the second was added because the first one was too fast
12:39<V453000>hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm me should make a RV set at some point
12:40<V453000>also should finish NUTS
12:40<V453000>also should create landscape set
12:40<V453000>also should add YETI animations to YETI
12:40<V453000>also should
12:40<V453000>todolist is long
12:40<V453000>CATS stations, PURR tracks need doing, WETRAILS, pipeline grf, )
12:40<@Alberth>so many nice projects and such little time :(
12:40<V453000>It will happen sooner or later :P
12:41<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> cargo loaded every 40 ticks for trains, 20 ticks for RVs, 10 ticks for ships <-- i never quite understood why this was introduced
12:41<V453000>will attempt to get another train class done tonight
12:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it’s not just original TTD?
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>it seems very arbitrary and pointless
12:41<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: be careful you are currently agreeing with other people which include me :P
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, gradual loading was not in TTD
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>it probably was a TTDPatch thing
12:42<@Alberth>V453000: you can delay some projects until 64bpp support :p
12:42<andythenorth>looks oddly like a bitmask * 10
12:42<V453000>Alberth: no thats fine XD but thanks
12:42<andythenorth>anyway, maybe it was to allow huge ships
12:42<V453000>Alberth: I will just re-render EVENTUALLY :P
12:42<andythenorth>but fine grained trains
12:43<andythenorth>probably someone looked up the exact flow rate of certain DB hoppers in 1956 and 1972
12:43<V453000>must do ALL the projects immediately
12:43<andythenorth>and needed to represent that
12:43<@Alberth>oh, that guy again :(
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i suspect a more technical issue, where the TTD internals that TTDPatch hooked into were accessed a different number of times
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: which makes this more like internal speed units
12:45<andythenorth>anyway, I’m going to fix it in my sets
12:45<andythenorth>more or less normalised
12:46<andythenorth>e.g. all tankers will load a bit faster than all general cargo vehicles
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12:57<jonty-comp>I believe sips and lewis are going to play openttd on yogscast live soon
12:57<jonty-comp>might wanna spool up some extra servers for the website :p
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13:16*andythenorth wonders exactly where they live
13:16<andythenorth>fair chance it’s about 2 miles from here
13:16<andythenorth>maybe I could go round and play with them :P
13:19<andythenorth>V453000: so what loading speed should I set?
13:19<andythenorth>or rather, how many ticks to unload, say 30t of cargo?
13:19*andythenorth is so little interested in the actual amounts :P
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm sure they appreciate random internet people showing up on their doorstep
13:20<andythenorth>I bet that never happens at all
13:20*andythenorth is doing the English lying thing
13:20<andythenorth>can hg do externals?
13:21<andythenorth>like git remotes?
13:21<andythenorth>seems I have some constants that are shared between all my newgrfs
13:21<andythenorth>I could curl them from a url at compile time, but that is a terrible idea
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>that it is
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure there is a hg extension for that
13:23<jonty-comp>they are currently complimenting the main menu
13:24<andythenorth>oh look
13:24<andythenorth>jonty-comp: are they using vanilla ottd?
13:24<jonty-comp>looks like it
13:24<jonty-comp>well, with OGFX
13:25<jonty-comp>"that's what I love most about OTTD, the smooth jazzy music in the background"
13:25<jonty-comp>going for arctic since it's xmas
13:26<jonty-comp>they've already learned the theme music to hum
13:27<andythenorth>anyone used hg subrepos?
13:27<andythenorth>are they as terrible as git suprepos?
13:27<andythenorth>subrepos *
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13:28<jonty-comp>and of course they're all called Player except sips, who actually knows how to play the game
13:29<jonty-comp>openttd really fails at compression when it comes to games like ottd :(
13:30<@Alberth>andythenorth: there are a few projects with subrepos
13:30<@Alberth>zbase and opengfx-mars at least
13:31<@Alberth>I have no idea how it compares to git, as git has inifinite terribliness for me
13:34<jonty-comp>"my 1080p UI is so small i can't see it"
13:35<andythenorth>he needs extra zoom
13:35<Jinassi>tell him to download zBase then, big menu by default
13:36<jonty-comp>the main streamers have zBase by the looks of it
13:36<jonty-comp>although someone in the stream chat pointed out that the train/bus/ship/plane icons are still small :p
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13:48<andythenorth>Iron Horse has a vehicle capacity parameter
13:48<andythenorth>should I normalise loading speeds against that, or ignore it?
14:00<@Alberth>capacities don't differ that much?
14:00<@Alberth>then it makes no difference what you do :)
14:05<andythenorth>I have to choose something
14:05<andythenorth>doing nothing is less code
14:05*andythenorth chooses less code
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14:18<Wolf01>hi hi
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14:31<jonty-comp>aaaand they all fail at signalling again
14:40<SpComb>yeah, all the tiny fonts, they
14:40<SpComb>yeah, all the tiny fonts, they're not viewer-friendly :P
14:41<andythenorth>I’m going to normalise all vehicles to unload in same time, regardless of capacity
14:41<andythenorth>should that be 120 ticks (matching default RVs), or 240 ticks (matching default trains)?
14:48<Wolf01>wow, I just read some topics on ottd problems... when we let the cages open?
14:49<Rubidium>lets assume a tile is ~350 meter, with radius 3 for bus stops that would mean walking up to 1 km to a bus stop (seems reasonable limit). Given the distance based on speed you'd have about a factor 2000 between that assumption of 350m and the 700 km the tile is wide. This means doing the same on the ticks at the station; 120 ticks -> 1.6 days -> (divide by factor of 2000) 70 seconds
14:50<Rubidium>70 seconds seems to short for a busy-ish bus stop and definitely a train stop, so I'd go for 240 to keep it "real" (whatever weak form of real it is)
14:56<andythenorth>“doesn’t feel too different to default vehicles” is close enough to ‘real’ for me :)
14:56<andythenorth>240 will do
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14:56<andythenorth>mind, it’s still 240 for 30t or 120t
14:56<andythenorth>because I’m normalising
14:57<andythenorth>4 forklifts instead of 1, if realism matters :P
14:59<SpComb>and such click-click-click-click to build railways when failing to use the autorail tool or hotkeys :(
15:02<@Alberth>practicing for Locomotion :)
15:03<SpComb>but the seek-time of having to mouse over to the different kind of rail button, place a corner or two, then back for a different rail, etc etc
15:04<SpComb>so slow
15:04<SpComb>painful to watch
15:04*andythenorth is playing Worms 2
15:04*andythenorth never plays games
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15:07<Jinassi>SpCOmb: Filler to increase gameplay time, but still keep viewers attention.
15:08<Jinassi>a second here and there and it ends up a few minutes more at the end
15:08<Jinassi>or they're just dumb and have not prepared for this. at. all.
15:09<SpComb>openttd - serious business
15:09<SpComb>not for the unprepared player :P
15:11<@Alberth>they play it like the original :p
15:26<jonty-comp>that's becaise they're both old enough to have grown up with the original
15:27<jonty-comp>and probably haven't played it since the last time fans asked them too
15:27<Jinassi>they need some proper competition, for viewers to start rioting.
15:27<Jinassi>or throwing cash at them
15:35<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> should I normalise loading speeds against that, or ignore it? <-- yes, loading speed should be scaled to capacity
15:38<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: inversely maybe?
15:39<Rubidium>a S-Bahn wagon holds way more passengers than an ICE wagon, but the S-Bahn wagon loads and unloads significantly faster that the ICE wagon
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: the "units per loading step" should have the same multiplier as the capacity
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i'm assuming we're talking about the same (cargo) wagon that has a multiplier depending on parameter
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: not a local/long distance difference
15:42<SpComb>oh wow, he started using the autorail tool!
15:42<SpComb>with Ctrl
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15:43<SpComb>okay, he got confused and gave up
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>am i the only one here not watching?
15:43<sigtau>Anyone know where I can find plugins/mods for a dedicated server that allow for things like bridging ingame chat with an IRC channel?
15:43<__ln__>watching what?
15:43<Wolf01>watching what?
15:43<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: oh... you replied to something from way way before I made a reply to andy; that's why I was a bit confused
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>sigtau: there are some tools for the admin port
15:44<sigtau>Do you have a link? I'm not entirely sure what I should be googling for
15:44<Rubidium>but yes-ish... loading time should be constant, loading amount should be 240 / loading time
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15:45<Eddi|zuHause>sigtau: i have no links ready
15:45<sigtau>hmm. Not even a search query? :p
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>but googling for "admin port" should do
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>stuff should be on the wiki
15:46<sigtau>Found it. Thanks
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16:21<andythenorth>ok so I’m normalising default loading time to 240 ticks regardless of capacity
16:21<andythenorth>now some types will need a factor for faster (or slower?) loading
16:21*andythenorth wonders how to express that, probably a float, then round the result
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>240 is 6 loading steps (6*40)
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>if your standard capacity is 30, then each loading step is 5
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>so slower loading would be 4, and faster 6
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>that multiplied with the capacity multiplicator
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>you can also put faster at 8
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>4=8 steps, 5=6 steps, 6=5 steps, 8=4 steps
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>floats are unnecessary
16:24<andythenorth>useful thanks, question was more how I express the modifier in the python that defines a vehicle
16:24<andythenorth>e.g. 1.1 * default or whatever
16:24<andythenorth>or default - 1
16:24<andythenorth>multiplier or addition
16:25<+glx>usually default is -1
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>use this list: [4,5,6,8,10]
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>don't screw with float multiplication, there will be corner cases that are tricky to resolve
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16:26<+glx>yeah lookup table is often easier
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>you need a lookup table for each capacity
16:27<andythenorth>that is interesting
16:28<andythenorth>can they be generated?
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>[roundup(capacity/steps) for steps in [8,6,5,4,3]]
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16:30<andythenorth>if the look up table can be generated, the same algorithm can just provide the result directly?
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>possibly, but separating this may make it easier to see what's going on
16:30<+glx>and it's faster to compute only once
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, assuming you have lots of wagons with the same capacity
16:33<andythenorth>seems my docs don’t print the capacity
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>that seems like an oversight
16:33<andythenorth>doesn’t it
16:34<andythenorth>oh it’s because of edge cases
16:34<andythenorth>there’s no meaningful single capacity
16:34<andythenorth>varies by parameter, also multiple cargos on an articulated consist
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16:40<andythenorth>ok normalising loading speeds is a much bigger task than I thought :)
16:40<andythenorth>thought it was just a quick formula
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16:47<Eddi|zuHause>well, it would be a fairly simple task in CETS...
16:47<andythenorth>capacity / 6
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really know how screwed up your codebase is
16:48<andythenorth>about the usual amount
16:48<andythenorth>but first I have to fix the docs
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>mind that integer-/ is usually rounding down, but you want rounding up
16:48<andythenorth>and then generate look up tables for every possible capacity
16:49<andythenorth>and handle that for trailing parts that have capacity
16:49<andythenorth>and capacities that vary by cargo type
16:49<andythenorth>is loading_speed even a cb property?
16:49*andythenorth looks
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>why special case the articulated parts?
16:49<andythenorth>good question
16:49<andythenorth>not needed
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think you need a callback, if it only depends on static properties and parameters
16:50<andythenorth>how to handle change of refit?
16:50<andythenorth>I don’t *want* a cb :P
16:50<andythenorth>more faff
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>well if capacity is a callback, then load speed must be, too.
16:51<andythenorth>20t supplies = 40 bags of mail or whatever
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16:51<andythenorth>could also get filed under, “who cares?"
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, callback is really not any more complicated than property...
16:52<andythenorth>nah, just more code to write
16:53<andythenorth>a 10 minute piece of code is now much more
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>just duplicate all the switches you have for capacity
16:55<andythenorth>less work than manually setting all loading speeds
16:55<andythenorth>and still that wouldn’t catch the changing capacity issue
17:03*andythenorth looks for a codeless code about small tasks
17:03<andythenorth>that grow
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 16 00:00:43 2014