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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-12-17

---Logopened Wed Dec 17 00:00:44 2014
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08:09<supermop>quiet day
08:15<@planetmaker>quite day
08:16<supermop>quite night here
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08:20<@planetmaker>not quite day here. Not sure I want to call it that. Rain, haze, not really bright at all
08:21<@planetmaker>but it's probably as much day as one can expect in this season ;)
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08:28<supermop>flying back to northern hemisphere on saturday, as apparently i am an idiot and need to go back to miserable weather
08:28<supermop>no snow in germany?
08:28<@planetmaker>depends on altitude. No snow in lowlands
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08:29<@planetmaker>there is snow probably at 500+ metres or so
08:29<@planetmaker>maybe 300+
08:29<@planetmaker>it's like 5°C outside and dropping slightly below 0°C during night
08:34<supermop>were i am from we would occasionally get snow at similar temperatures that would just melt as it landed
08:34<supermop>but we had different wind/precipitation patterns
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08:40<supermop>of course the weather is beautiful down here just as i am about to leave it
08:43<@planetmaker>you're in down under, or where?
08:44<supermop>living in melbourne for the past year
08:44<supermop>as my fiance came here for a masters degree
08:45<@planetmaker>aye. supposedly a nice place, though I never made it there when I was visiting australia
08:45<supermop>very nice in the spring and summer, the winter is quite rainy
08:46<supermop>the flight from here tto my parents place will be quite the ordeal
08:46<supermop>but involves a 787-9, so hopefully more comfortable
08:54<argoneus>a380 best
08:54<supermop>not for comfort
08:55<argoneus>well if you are a pilot.....
08:55<argoneus>the cockpit is huge
08:55<supermop>ive taken korean air a380s between jfk and incheon, and it's not much better than being in a beat up 747
08:56<supermop>im sure first and bussiness are nice, but being in economy with that many people across is no fun no matter the plane
08:57<supermop>the 787-8 i took in april was noticeably more relaxing even though it was in a budget economy seat, the more natural air pressure and moisture helps a lot
09:00<__ln__>how many seats (economy) per row in an a380?
09:08<supermop>i recall 3-6-3 but i may have been 3-5-3
09:08<supermop>this was lower level of a Korea Air one
09:08<supermop>unsure if other carriers do the same
09:09<@planetmaker>commercial flights themselves in economy generally are not exacly my idea of a fun thing to do
09:10<@planetmaker>for long distance at least it's rather uncomfortable. Independent of the actual plane you have barely any space
09:11<V453000>never flew long distance and had enough already
09:11<@planetmaker>not worth it really. Except some destinations, but sure not the flights themselves
09:12<@planetmaker>I mean, sometimes the view from the windows is quite nice, but... meh
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10:05<Jinassi>completely offtopic to the game, but does anyone have any firefox addon to capture entire webpage as a jpeg or something?
10:10<andythenorth>it’s not what you asked but
10:11<andythenorth>or just search the firefox addons
10:11<andythenorth>that’s all I’m going to do to answer your question
10:11<Jinassi>trying a few out, wanted to see if anyone has any faveourites
10:14<Jinassi>some fuckers decided to end game support after it succesfully launched of kickstarter and been on steam for half a year, grrr. With shitlots of bugs still present and promised updates and mod support
10:14<andythenorth>I am not anti-crowdfunding in any way
10:14<andythenorth>but there is a coming backlash
10:15<andythenorth>it favours snake oil
10:15<andythenorth>the projects that win big are those that have the slickest pitch, from really nice sounding people
10:15<Jinassi>well, funding is divided by FFF( friends, family, fools)
10:15<andythenorth>with lots of benefits
10:15<andythenorth>it’s an easy way for very plausible people to make easy money
10:16<andythenorth>in most cases, you actually have to be quite a fucker to run a successful product company
10:16<@planetmaker>the two things I've funded turned out quite decent so far and not scammy. But yes... there is a risk
10:16<andythenorth>it’s probably 80:20 legit: scam
10:16<andythenorth>and the scams are scams of wishful thinking rather than malice I think
10:16<@planetmaker>80:20 again ;)
10:16<andythenorth>I dunno, I’ve been around the kind of people who get funded a lot
10:17<andythenorth>plausibility and delivering are different kinds of people
10:17<andythenorth>also most business plans are wrong
10:17<@planetmaker>anyhow, kickstarter is a gamble. You should not need to rely on it to work out. Any development is a bet on the future. You can't always win
10:17<andythenorth>and most business models don’t survive the first 3 customers
10:18*andythenorth is full of beans today
10:18<@planetmaker>baked beans? ;)
10:18<andythenorth>also biab
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10:34<@planetmaker>so, seems the Spanish publishers discover the same truth as the German ones: it simply doesn't work to force someone to pay them in order to send users their way
10:39<Jinassi>they need a good Pied Piper of Hamelin
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11:13<Eddi|zuHause>research into the truth of fairy tales suggested that the actual pied piper of hamelin was a venue to develop new lands in the east that recruited the youths that saw no perspective/job opportunities in their hometown
11:19<@peter1138>Jinassi, what game?
11:23<Jinassi>original developer from Poland is still making updates and adding more dlc's. Publisher/developer tokk the ash and split
11:23<Jinassi>took the cash
11:23<Jinassi>i want to tear them a new asshole
11:23<Jinassi>1 guy making the game and a whole team to rub nipples and pocket the cash from sales
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12:14<@peter1138>That's what happens when you spell tyres incorrectly.
12:19<Jinassi>tire is spelled in US and Canada, while tyre is being used elswere. A lot of words were changed, just so "new world" can feel empowered. All I see is a bit "dumbed down" English.
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13:57<andythenorth>ou est le chat?
14:15<@Alberth>hi hi
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14:45<Wolf01>hi hi o/
14:47<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
14:50<V453000>why is this failing to compile at the first line of the template?
14:50<V453000>is the template testing itself with 0 values
14:50<V453000>or is nmlc just not giving me the correct line on which exact sprite it fails?
14:50<V453000>it tells me that ypos out of valid range because it is -2048
14:51<V453000>error on line 3 in this paste
14:51<@planetmaker>V453000, the paste does not show any error. please post the full error
14:51<@planetmaker>and the corresponding full code
14:52<Wolf01>did you copy it from stackoverflow? it seem it is the new trend of compile/parsing error :P
14:53<V453000>I dont think there is some other full code pm, the only error it throws is this
14:53<@Alberth>x=0, y=1 gives 0-4096 = -4096
14:53<V453000>yes Alberth but I do not have these values in the sprites
14:53<V453000>am quite sure
14:53<V453000>in other words I wanted to ask if this error means that some of my sprites is wrong
14:54<V453000>OR if it means that I simply cant define template this way
14:54<V453000>it would seem to me like some sprite is wrong, BUT nmlc isnt telling me which :(
14:54<@Alberth>can you give an instance of the template?
14:54<@planetmaker>whatever you also mean with 'hexa code'. x is just a number. The representation doesn't matter
14:54<@Alberth>ie there are no concrete x/y values defined anywhere
14:55<V453000>alternative_sprites (spriteset_CHAMELEON4_middle16, ZOOM_LEVEL_IN_4X, BIT_DEPTH_32BPP) {template_32bpp_vehicle4_MASK (0x7F,0,"gfx_32bpp/CHAMI_ENGINES_0000.png","gfx_32bpp/CHAMI_ENGINES_mask_8bpp.png")}
14:55<@planetmaker>and nmlc error is quite clear imho. You *do* end up at negative y
14:55<@planetmaker>examples don't help you find the error
14:55<V453000>well yeah but where could that be :d
14:55<@Alberth>small x, and big y ?
14:56<V453000>am assuming 7F, because 32-7F gives 2048
14:56<V453000>and -2048 is the error value
14:56<@planetmaker>bullshit. 32 - 0x7F = 32 - 128 = -96
14:56<@Alberth>@calc 2048 / 32
14:56<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 64
14:57<@Alberth>x=64 (0x40) y = 1
14:57<V453000>x 7F, y 0
14:57<V453000>eh 1 :)
14:57<V453000>that would give -2048
14:57<V453000>cause 128*32 - 4096
14:57<@Alberth>@calc 0x7f*32-4096
14:57<@DorpsGek>Alberth: -32
14:57<V453000>@calc 128*32
14:57<@DorpsGek>V453000: 4096
14:58<@Alberth>just about 1900 wrong :p
14:58<V453000>ehh :D
14:58<@planetmaker>V453000, without the full nml there's not much to discuss
14:58<@planetmaker>other than check where you use the template. everywhere
14:58<@Alberth>@calc 0x40*32-4096
14:58<@DorpsGek>Alberth: -2048
14:59<@planetmaker>and actually my next request will be: show me the full code so that I can compile myself and reproduce that error ;)
15:00<V453000>pm it requires 5GB sprites ...
15:00<V453000>anyway, so I am not searching for 7F, but for half of it
15:00<V453000>which would give 64 not 128
15:00<V453000>@base 64 16
15:00<@DorpsGek>V453000: Error: '64' is not a valid base.
15:01<V453000>@base 16 64
15:01<@DorpsGek>V453000: 100
15:01<V453000>I dont think that is right XD
15:01<@planetmaker>@base 10 16 64
15:01<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 40
15:01<V453000>XD ty
15:02<V453000>I am so retarded
15:02<V453000>this is x1
15:02<V453000>so smaller sprites
15:02<V453000>took me a while
15:02<V453000>it should be 2048 ofc
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15:07<@Alberth>still, if you'd shown the template instances, we could have pointed out the problem, I think
15:08<V453000>what do you mean by template instance? :/
15:08<@planetmaker>the actual code
15:08<V453000>which? :D
15:08<@planetmaker>not just snippets of which you thought might work
15:08<@planetmaker>or not work
15:08<V453000>I pasted the template, I pasted the spriteset which uses it
15:08<V453000>there is nothing more to it
15:09<V453000>but which contxt :(
15:09<V453000>e :)
15:10<@planetmaker>also I wonder why do you work with hex numbers at all?
15:11<V453000>cause nuts uses 16x16 grid for models
15:11<@planetmaker>use 20x20 and avoid yourself getting confused
15:12<@planetmaker>there's really no reason to use hexa-alginment
15:12<@planetmaker>other than trying to look smart. And failing sometimes, tripping yourself
15:12<V453000>+-, no, it was just a good starting point
15:12<V453000>since I had 4x4 yeti setup
15:13<V453000>getting it to 16x16 seemed logical
15:13<V453000>is still quite good
15:13<V453000>the template is fine just as well
15:14<@planetmaker>except you obviously don't know where to look. without looking up in a table when you look at the sprite(s)
15:14<V453000>just had one sprite with 40 for X and 1 for y by mistake
15:15<@planetmaker>but then, not my problem :)
15:15<V453000>that it isnt in any case :D
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15:19<Jinassi>Well, got official response, game goes on, dev gets a team to hasten progress any everyone is happy. Sounds like a fairytale.
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15:23<@Alberth>V: I meant *all* these: template_32bpp_vehicle4_MASK (0x7F,0,.....)
15:23<@Alberth>that is, all uses of the template
15:23<V453000>cant grep on windoze :D
15:23<V453000>so I didnt even consider that a possible task XD
15:24<@planetmaker>that's why the whole nml...
15:25<V453000>OH XD
15:25<andythenorth>get that man a better compile :P
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15:25<andythenorth>me and V453000 should join forces
15:25<V453000>well, the thing seems to compile now XD
15:25<andythenorth>also with Eddi|zuHause
15:25<V453000>hi andythenorth
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>what should be the result of that?
15:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause can write a code generator
15:26<andythenorth>V453000 can do graphics
15:26<andythenorth>I’ll monologue in irc
15:26<andythenorth>all bases covered
15:26<AmongtheSavages>hi, guys. this is my first time in this chat. I'm a long time TTD player and recently dl open ttd
15:26<V453000>also go troll tt-forums for me andythenorth
15:26<@planetmaker>so, hope you enjoy it, AmongtheSavages
15:26<andythenorth>division of labour
15:27<AmongtheSavages>i'm using zbase and i'm curious if its possible to include other grf packages or sprites to modify in game content but be compatible at the same time
15:27<andythenorth>V453000: I *never* troll forums
15:27<AmongtheSavages>when i download new grfs they are not compatible with zbase and the mods revert from 32bit to whatever
15:27<V453000>yes because the grfs arent in 32bpp
15:27<@planetmaker>AmongtheSavages, they are compatible... just not visually.
15:27<V453000>there is only handful of 32bpp newGRFs
15:27<V453000>and what pm said
15:28<V453000>try YETI industries for example, is fully in 32bpp
15:28<AmongtheSavages>ah, do you guys use 32bit mods? and can you show me where they are?
15:28<V453000>but not visually compatible either, the colours/contrast are way too different
15:28<Eddi|zuHause> <Jinassi> [...] All I see is a bit "dumbed down" English. <-- so what? english itself is just dumbed down french/german/norwegian/dutch/...
15:28<@planetmaker>whether a newgrf provides 32bpp or not is at the discretion of the respective authors. There's a wiki page which lists some (all?) of those which also support 32bpp
15:29<AmongtheSavages>so then how about playing downloadable scenarios? if i'm using the zbase engine and install the grf material from scenarios? will i also have compatibility issues?
15:29<@planetmaker>if they use non-32bpp newgrfs, then you'll have non-32bpp sprites in that scenario, too. Of course
15:30<Jinassi>I was talking about different pronounciations from US vs the rest of the world.
15:30<@planetmaker>depends really on the scenario whether they use any, and if so, which newgrfs
15:30<Jinassi>tyre vs tire
15:30<AmongtheSavages>ok i understand. do you guys use YETI?
15:31<AmongtheSavages>along with zbase
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>nobody in their right mind uses YETI
15:31<@Alberth>haven't played it in a long time :p
15:31<@planetmaker>don't listen to Eddi|zuHause
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>not that anybody in here is in their right mind...
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15:32<@planetmaker>new people don't know our type of humor yet ;)
15:32<AmongtheSavages>i like the looks of yeti industries on teh wiki page. so your suggesting not to use yeti with zbase?
15:33<@planetmaker>AmongtheSavages, use whatever combination *you* think is good
15:33<V453000>I use YETI with original TTD base set
15:33<AmongtheSavages>i dont understand why guys still use original base when 32b is available. its so much cleaner
15:33<@planetmaker>The differences are just visual
15:34<@Alberth>AmongtheSavages: it's a bit toooo clean, imho
15:34<@Alberth>not to mention offset problems all over the place
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>a lot of the 32bpp stuff is a bit bland, quick-and-dirty rendering instead of detailed works of art
15:34<V453000>or WAY too clean for some :P, oversized vehicles, wtf , ...
15:34<AmongtheSavages>i've noticed the oversized vehicles
15:35<@planetmaker>the more you try, the more you'll notice. There's no general concensus on what constitutes good graphics ;)
15:36<@planetmaker>Nor is there any control by anyone on what people upload to content download
15:36<@planetmaker>(if they play by the TOS)
15:36<V453000>ps I love how people think "oh yeah 32bpp so now we play 32bpp only because there is no other way"
15:37<AmongtheSavages>well, i just like 32b much more. it keeps me interested in in playing further
15:38<@planetmaker>then use it :)
15:38<AmongtheSavages>i am, though i want to try 32b compatible grfs for new industries and realistic town evolution
15:38<@planetmaker>if you feel like it: start to draw or render more of those
15:38<@Alberth>AmongtheSavages: that's fine, but just remember different people make different choices, they do not think all like you
15:39<AmongtheSavages>^ ofcourse
15:39<@Alberth>a common mistake when discussing the game
15:39<@Alberth>ie I like X, so you must also like it, as you also play the game :)
15:40<@Alberth>not really the case, often :p
15:41<@planetmaker>there are few games which allow so many different ways to be played, imho
15:42<AmongtheSavages>so do you guys typically play multiplayer?
15:45<AmongtheSavages>well, thank you all for answering my questions
15:46<@Alberth>I play MP coop sometimes, but not that often
15:46<@Alberth>mostly for testing new nregrfs :)
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15:53<Wolf01>"Greetings (Account First Name),"
15:55<@Alberth>hello too
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>i never get such mails :/
15:59<Wolf01>that one was from Blizzard
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not getting mails from blizzard either
16:09<AmongtheSavages>so i tried using YETI with zbase and it doesn't show production values
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16:10<AmongtheSavages>any industry i click on shows a quantity of zero
16:11<Wolf01>I think you must first bring some workers to the industries
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16:20<AmongtheSavages>yeah ur right
16:20<AmongtheSavages>does anyone here play with yeti industries?
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16:22<AmongtheSavages>do you play with zeti industries?
16:23<dreck>oh yeti
16:23<dreck>well used to like it a bit before but not recently sorry? :->
16:25<dreck>why you ask anyway?
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16:36<AmongtheSavages>i'm trying it out
16:36<AmongtheSavages>just seeing if anyone uses it
16:36<AmongtheSavages>so i could ask how they like it etc
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16:41<dreck>well honestly I've liked firs with many trainsets and original industry with some trainsets for most part for the record
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16:45<AmongtheSavages>are those 32b?
16:45<AmongtheSavages>i'm only playing with standard zbase set. do you play with 32b?
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16:48<AmongtheSavages>frosch grvts 32b doesn't exist anymore
16:48<frosch123>did it ever?
16:48<AmongtheSavages>well, for 32b it doesn't. anyway frosch thank you for linking that. i'm going to read through it
16:50<frosch123>for trains you can try pineapple trains
16:50<frosch123>not sure whether the truecolor/zoom nuts is already released
16:50<AmongtheSavages>i know, but it only works in tropical climate
16:50<frosch123>i am not aware of a truecolor/zoom road vehicle, ship or planeset
16:50<AmongtheSavages>i just got back to playing this game after a long time. i have to refresh my skills and strategies
16:51<AmongtheSavages>pineapple trains isn't for temperate climate i think
16:51<frosch123>i am quite sure it works in any climate
16:51<AmongtheSavages>for 32b. i'm only looking for 32b compatibility
16:51<AmongtheSavages>so i can pay with zbase
16:51<AmongtheSavages>ah k
16:55<+michi_cc>AmongtheSavages: zBase does not modify gameplay in any way, so you can use it with any NewGRF you want. Not every combination will be aesthetically pleasing though, but this is of course highly personal.
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16:57<AmongtheSavages>i know, i only want 32b compatibility though. its so ugly to play zbase with 8b grfs lol
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17:24<AmongtheSavages>im liking pineapple trains (32b)
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19:51<anchovies> #cooldude13233
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19:51<anchovies> #cooldude13233
19:52<anchovies> #cooldude13233
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20:19<Eddi|zuHause>something tells me that this is not very trustworthy
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>anyone crazy enough to find out what that actually is?
21:09<+glx>wow autokill is rare
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21:31<ChrizC>Hi all, I have a station surrounding an oil refinery which is feeding in oil by trains, and taking goods out by both train and plane. There's always at least one vehicle loading, or attempting to load goods. All of the trains I use have top speed of 305km/h. I built a statue in the local town, yet I can't get my station rating above 26% and I have no idea what else to do?
21:36<Sylf>what version of openttd are you using?
21:36<ST2>single player or online server? wich newgrf's used? if SP, a savegame would help, if MP game, wich server?
21:37<Sylf>I've experienced similar behavior in various nightlies
21:43<ChrizC>sorry, I was outside having a cigarette
21:44<ChrizC>Sylf, ST2; v1.4.4, single player, newgrf's are av8, opengf+ airports, industries, road vehicles and trains, and long vehicles v4
21:44<ChrizC>1 sec for savegame
21:45<ChrizC>Sylf, ST2:
21:45<Sylf>1 sec
21:47<ChrizC>I've got the station in question focused on, it's Marnbridge South
21:47<Sylf>this looks very much like
21:48<Sylf>I didn't know this happened even in the release version
21:48<ChrizC>Oooh, I didn't see that
21:52<ChrizC>That's... not good?
21:53<ChrizC>It's seriously affecting how well the station's performing. It's producing between 1,000 to 2,000 crates of goods per month but only transporting about 300-400 :(
21:53<ST2>well, I'll bet it's a newgrf issue, and some are quite old (and not updated for long time)
21:54<ST2>but that's saying the obvious ^^
21:54<Sylf>so, I tried this: I closed the airport, and stopped the goods train until the station rating hit 0%
21:54<Sylf>then resumed the goods transport service
21:54<Sylf>now the station rating is 65%
21:55<ChrizC>Sylf; keeping the oil trains running?
21:55<ChrizC>Alright, lemme give that a try. Got a looot of planes wanting to land haha
21:56<Sylf>It's not a real fix though
21:56<ChrizC>Does it slowly go back down?
21:57<Sylf>if no trains or planes are taking the goods, the rating will drop slowly
21:57<Sylf>I'm playing with fastforward
21:57<Sylf>and I got the rating down to 30%, and can't get it higher than that
21:59<ChrizC>I can't even get the rating to hit 0%, it just hovers around 10
22:00<ST2>btw, Long vehicles newgrf I had to download it manually - OpenTTD couldn't find it
22:01<ChrizC>Yeah, it's not on the main thing
22:01<ST2>probably you found the issue then ^^
22:01<Sylf>the game I posted on tt-forums doens't use long vehicles
22:02<ChrizC>Sylf, what newgrfs did you use on the game on tt-forums?
22:02<ChrizC>Match any of the ones I have?
22:03<Sylf>only OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles 0.4.1 matches
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22:09<ChrizC>Sylf; It seems to be any OpenGFX+ newgrf
22:09<ChrizC>I just enabled scenario_developer, removed all the OpenGF+ newgrfs one by one
22:09<ChrizC>now the rating's 75% and rising
22:10<Sylf>I did that on my save game, and it crashed the game
22:11<ChrizC>Well I just screwed up my airport and stations by doing it lol
22:12<ChrizC>Okay, OpenGFX+ trains doesn't seem to affect it
22:12<ChrizC>Actually, scratch that, it's slowly going down again
22:13<ChrizC>So yeah, it's something to do with OpenGFX+
22:13<ChrizC>in general
22:16<Sylf>OpenGFX+ trees should be safe though
22:16<Sylf>I play with that more than any other OpenGFX+ series, and I normally don't have problems
22:16<ChrizC>I don't have that, so can't test it
22:17<Sylf>it's downloadable in game
22:21<ChrizC>Weird, for some reason, I can't demolish the airport at Marnbridge South
22:22<ChrizC>Oh lol, silly me, I left a plane in the hangar
22:29<ChrizC>Well it's definitely something to do with OpenGFX+ Trains, Airports, Road Vehicles or Industries. Or any combination of the 4.
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22:59<Eddi|zuHause>industry sets can change the way station rating is calculated
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